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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on so Jesse. We've had

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Speaker 2: some feedback, and it's specifically about how you, who are

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Speaker 2: supposed to be the smart one in this trio.

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Speaker 1: Educated, And she doesn't ever get tired of reminding.

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Speaker 2: It, like never likes to let us forget that. When

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Speaker 2: we did a whole segment the other day about a

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Speaker 2: certain kind of aesthetic, yep, oh, well, your chair was

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Speaker 2: the influencer.

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Speaker 3: I I am notoriously well read, and there are some

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Speaker 3: words that I have only ever read, never heard out loud,

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Speaker 3: and in my head it was a bugle chair a

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Speaker 3: bucle t o you c l e and I would

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Speaker 3: like it on the record. Neither of you corrected me.

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Speaker 3: Maya you just repeated because it.

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Speaker 1: Was so far removed from the original word. Like when

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Speaker 1: I say premiere, there is an accent that yeah, maybe

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Speaker 1: that didn't make two syllables. Clay boot clay. No one

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Speaker 1: knows the type of wool there are one knows when

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Speaker 1: you call it bukele.

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Speaker 2: The out louders knew it. That's because they're classy and

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Speaker 2: they all came and they said, was Jesse trying to

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Speaker 2: say boot play?

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Speaker 3: So some out louders me WI. Others actually went, oh,

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Speaker 3: my goodness, I learned something new. That's how you say

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Speaker 3: boot clay yep, and that honestly, there is confusion in

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Speaker 3: society as of last week. But my favorite were the

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Speaker 3: out louders that went, Jesse, We've all been there. Some

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Speaker 3: of us are just great readers, and we read things

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Speaker 3: and we don't know how to say them. And one

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Speaker 3: woman said that she went very important event and it

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Speaker 3: was all CEOs and she had to come up and

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Speaker 3: announce that there was some food being offered, and she said,

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Speaker 3: the cannops are here, Come on cannops. And everyone looked

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Speaker 3: at her.

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Speaker 1: Because there's an on the end.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, out louders, I thank you for

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Speaker 3: the show of solidarity. We all have our words.

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Speaker 2: I am pouring one out for all the furniture shop

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Speaker 2: workers who this weekend we're dealing with women going in

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Speaker 2: and saying I'm after a boogle chair. Apparently the neutral palette.

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Speaker 3: Of the people who work at all the furniture shops

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Speaker 3: did message me on Instagram and said, you are not

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Speaker 3: the first, you are not the first to pronounce last. Okay,

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Speaker 3: that started a trend.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the sixteenth of December,

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Speaker 2: otherwise known as the beginning of Holly and Jesse's birthday week.

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Speaker 1: In this two, I've just finished my daughter's birthday week. You,

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Speaker 1: Sagittarius is with your chips on your shoulder about having

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Speaker 1: December birthdays. You're insufferable.

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Speaker 3: I know, I'm sorry about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne right, I'm me a Friedman and my

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Speaker 1: birthday is in a very civilized month of October, and

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Speaker 1: I'm a Libra and I don't make a fuss.

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Speaker 3: I think I have about five sleeps. Oh, I'm Jesse

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Speaker 3: Stevens and it's nearly my birthday.

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Speaker 2: And of the show today, If you're buying again for

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Speaker 2: your partner's sister, running through a relentless three day menu

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Speaker 2: in your head and stuffing stockings while crying, you're not

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Speaker 2: just carrying the Christmas mental load, you're kin keeping.

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Speaker 1: And so it's Queen Camilla.

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Speaker 2: Also a young woman who slept with one hundred men

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Speaker 2: in one day is crying on the internet, and the

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Speaker 2: general vibe seems to be I told you so, But

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Speaker 2: Lily Phillips is not following the script for What's meant

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Speaker 2: to happen next, and the woman who wrote one of

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Speaker 2: the best selling books of all time about a search

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Speaker 2: for love has sworn off it entirely for her second act.

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Speaker 2: Liz Gilbert on why the Love has been dumped from

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Speaker 2: Eat Prey but First Mia.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed it. Luigi Mangioni and p Diddy

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Speaker 1: have one thing in common. Their defense attorneys are married

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Speaker 1: to each other. It is indeed a really small world

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Speaker 1: when you are a man who has been accused of

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Speaker 1: a heinous crime, or some heinous crimes in the case

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Speaker 1: of Diddy. Just to recap, Luigi Mangioni is the twenty

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Speaker 1: six year old man who's been charged with murdering United

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Speaker 1: Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in New York City a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago. Sean Coombs has been charged with all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things, including trafficking, sexual assault. The list of

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Speaker 1: charges against him grows by the day now. Karen Friedman

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Speaker 1: Agnifilo is representing Luigi Maggioni and Mark Agnifilo, her husband,

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Speaker 1: is representing Diddy. Given the global interest in both these cases,

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Speaker 1: which we'll go to court in twenty twenty five. I

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Speaker 1: think Christmas is canceled in the Agnifilo house.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so I kept thinking, imagine living in that house.

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Speaker 3: So let's say Christmas is happening. They have kids. I

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Speaker 3: looked it up. They're grown up. But someone's got to

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Speaker 3: buy presents for the kids or they're gonna get upset.

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Speaker 3: They're gonna stop my feet. Imagine saying I can't. I

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Speaker 3: am literally representing a man who, in broad daylight, caught

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Speaker 3: on CCTV footage, killed a man like shot a man.

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Speaker 3: We've seen it. I need to try and defend him.

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Speaker 3: And then the other person going, you think you've got

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Speaker 3: it hard. I'm defending a man from sex trafficking to

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Speaker 3: prostitute like all of these crimes.

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Speaker 1: Of baby oil, who was also captured on cct exactly

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Speaker 1: beating up his former girlfriend.

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Speaker 3: Who gets out of the Christmas presence.

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Speaker 1: You know how you have that thing sometimes in couples

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Speaker 1: where you have the busy Olympics, it's like, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: the busiest, Not I'm the busiest.

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Speaker 3: And I'm the most important. They're both very important.

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Speaker 2: If you're stumbling to the end of the year. I

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Speaker 2: think that's a trademark term, now, don't you think? Or crawling?

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Speaker 2: Everyone's just crawling.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying today I've inexplicably started losing my voice. Holly

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Speaker 3: has a gunky eye for some reason. Mayas, how are

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Speaker 3: you falling apart? Will you turn up to the office

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Speaker 3: today without not any makeup on? You did it in

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Speaker 3: your office's I was just late.

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Speaker 1: I'm perpetually late, you know. But I I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I had laser last week. I think I've got roseisha

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Speaker 1: in my eyes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, conversation, we're not thriving called ocular roseasha? Okay. Great.

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Speaker 2: So if that's you and you're trying to remember who

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Speaker 2: the hell are you invited for Christmas and deciding the

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Speaker 2: hell to feed them, and remembering to move the elf

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Speaker 2: and a ten a million end of year things, and

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Speaker 2: arguing with family members about how much of the day

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Speaker 2: you'll spend wear and with who. Welcome to Sandringham Castle,

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Speaker 2: where the royals are having the biggest Christmas ever after

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Speaker 2: a shitty year or two, including both the King and

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Speaker 2: the Princess of Wales otherwise known as Kate having cancer treatment,

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Speaker 2: two brothers failing to reconcile for another year, and the

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Speaker 2: Queen even being in hospital for an infection, and you know,

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Speaker 2: just all the shit of life. At the moment, the

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Speaker 2: Royals have decided to push the boat out this year

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Speaker 2: and have more than forty family members for their traditional Christmas.

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Speaker 1: I don't think foody is very many. When you think

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Speaker 1: about Kate's family.

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Speaker 2: Apparently it's much bigger than usual. Usually there is a

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Speaker 2: very tight inner circle, and this year it's been expanded.

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Speaker 2: For example, Camilla's son Tom Parker Bowls is going for

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Speaker 2: the first time, and considering he and his mum and

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Speaker 2: his stepdad have been oh.

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Speaker 1: My goodness for like thirty years.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of turkey for some poor person, usually a woman,

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Speaker 2: to make. But of course Camilla and Kate and the

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Speaker 2: York princesses Bitris and Eugenia not going to be the

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Speaker 2: ones doing that. They've got plenty of hired help for it.

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Speaker 2: In the Royal family, they have some really weird traditions.

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Speaker 2: So for example, the men and women eat breakfast separately.

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Speaker 2: The men have big like full English kippers and bacon

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Speaker 2: and all that, and the women of course have grapefruit

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Speaker 2: and cereal.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: Also, another weird Royal family Christmas lunch tradition is that

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Speaker 2: they are all weighed before and after lunch to make

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Speaker 2: sure they've had a really good time.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, way, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: They do this every year, but they've certainly done it

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Speaker 2: at times, and Princess Diana was not a fan of

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Speaker 2: this because it was rather bad for her eating disorder.

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Speaker 2: And also they give each other really crazy cheap gifts,

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Speaker 2: so not expensive diamonds and things, but like who can

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Speaker 2: give each other the shittest five dollars gift?

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Speaker 1: So it used to be just kind of an immediate

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Speaker 1: family airs really and spares. Now it's extended family.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right it is now if your festive traditions are

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Speaker 2: not as creepy is that? But equally is important who's

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Speaker 2: in charge of making them all happen? Let us guess

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Speaker 2: it's probably a female in your family circle. It's called kinkeeping,

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Speaker 2: according to an article we read this week, and apparently

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Speaker 2: being the one who organizes everything for family holidays and celebrations.

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Speaker 2: As in keeping the kin is the connective tissue of

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Speaker 2: keeping the family together, also known as the mental load,

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Speaker 2: of course, and the fact that women particularly women married

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Speaker 2: to men do all of the kinkeeping. Also means they

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Speaker 2: get a certain amount of control over how things go down.

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Speaker 2: So that mother of a son you know who says

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Speaker 2: she never sees him since he got married, that's probably

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Speaker 2: because his wife is doing the kinkeeping and he is not.

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Speaker 2: Mia do you relate to kinkeeping?

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Speaker 1: Jamie Kenny wrote this article for Scary Mummy, and she said,

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Speaker 1: around the holidays, you will often hear this unfair narrative that, oh,

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Speaker 1: my son's wife is always with her family. Once he

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Speaker 1: married her, we no longer see him anymore. She really

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Speaker 1: doesn't put in any effort with us, which is how

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Speaker 1: I feel. And then also a lot of people say,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important if you are the mother

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Speaker 1: in law, father in law, whatever you might be in

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Speaker 1: your son's family doesn't spend a lot of time with

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Speaker 1: you around the holidays, or feel like they don't put

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Speaker 1: in a lot of effort, remind yourself that it is

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Speaker 1: not his partner's fault. This is your son's fault.

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Speaker 3: It's so internalized. Because I was thinking on the royal theme,

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Speaker 3: I think this is partly why there was so much

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Speaker 3: vitriol directed at Megan Markle because her role as a

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Speaker 3: woman is kinkeeping. You keep the peace, you keep the

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Speaker 3: relationship with the man. If there are fractures, you fix

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Speaker 3: Them's your job. And I think that that really shows

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Speaker 3: this time of year, because women feel that if they

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Speaker 3: don't uphold or create certain traditions. I'm feeling it that

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, we have to set up traditions that

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Speaker 3: are ongoing, then they simply won't happen. And kinkeeping. What

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Speaker 3: I love about there being a word for it is

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Speaker 3: that it is incredibly important. People knowing that they have

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Speaker 3: somewhere to go on Christmas or New Year's Eve, or

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Speaker 3: an auntie to call them on their birthday is such

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Speaker 3: an antidote to loneliness. And now there are so many

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Speaker 3: competing priorities. Women work outside the home. Geographically, families are

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Speaker 3: spread more than they ever have before. This is actually

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Speaker 3: genuinely harder, and with the decline of sort of religious

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Speaker 3: institutions which did a lot of the hard work for

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Speaker 3: you and that you went every Sunday or whatever, this

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Speaker 3: is real work and one that I don't think a

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Speaker 3: lot of women have the words for because some of

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Speaker 3: it is fulfilling, and you know inherently that it's important.

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Speaker 3: But when it's an obligation that you don't necessarily want

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Speaker 3: to do, but you know that it needs to be done,

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Speaker 3: then I think that resentment starts to fester.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it is about navigating politics and feelings,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Because everyone's starting to talk about what are

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Speaker 1: you doing for Christmas Day now? And if you have

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Speaker 1: a partner and they have family, and their parents might

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Speaker 1: be divorced, and so might your parents. Even if you

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Speaker 1: don't have a partner, your parents might be divorced. So

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Speaker 1: you've got to navigate that, and you've got to navigate

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Speaker 1: it if you've got siblings with their partners. So there

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Speaker 1: are some people who are having to navigate four different

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Speaker 1: Christmas events. And what I've been noticing this year more

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Speaker 1: and more is that people are doing them away from

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Speaker 1: December twenty five, So it'll be like my Christmas with

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Speaker 1: my parents and my brother and his family is going

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Speaker 1: to be on the twenty third, and then on a

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Speaker 1: different day you see other people, and then.

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Speaker 3: Which is more work.

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Speaker 2: Goes over multiple days.

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Speaker 1: But also for some people just geographically, the politics of saying,

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Speaker 1: oh no, we're not going to be able to see

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Speaker 1: you on Christmas because we're going to be with my

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Speaker 1: partner's family, or it's really a lot of feelings get hurt,

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Speaker 1: and I think that women are just more attuned to

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Speaker 1: the potential for feelings.

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Speaker 3: Is that though I was reading an article about that

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Speaker 3: and it was saying women taking this on, especially women

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Speaker 3: who probably have as big workload as their husbands. It

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Speaker 3: used the word upskilling, and I thought, that's what we

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Speaker 3: need to do. There are some people in our life

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Speaker 3: who might need a little bit of upskilling, and in

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Speaker 3: upskilling them, there also needs to be decisions made, which is,

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Speaker 3: maybe you would like lunch to be done a certain way,

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Speaker 3: but if you outsource it, you have to accept that

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Speaker 3: lunch is going to be done that way. Because I

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Speaker 3: have that instinct, I must say to go. Sometimes I

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Speaker 3: notice things about a conversation or a dynamic or a

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Speaker 3: request that I go, oh, I think that one mattered,

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Speaker 3: And I think they asked that because they wanted to

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Speaker 3: do that that I don't think my husband, I don't

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Speaker 3: think that's a gender thing, but I don't think he

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Speaker 3: picks up on as much. But I think it's also

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Speaker 3: the standard. This is a mental load thing that you

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Speaker 3: see the value in it for the kids often and

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Speaker 3: so you just go and do it. But I don't

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Speaker 3: think there's any reason why women should be taking on

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Speaker 3: double the men. And there was this an a few

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Speaker 3: years ago.

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Speaker 1: Well because if you don't, it won't happen, yes, but.

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Speaker 3: There was this analogy that said that men are like

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Speaker 3: the actors. If Christmas is a performance, men are the

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Speaker 3: actors and women are the crew. So I hate that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but that's how it feels sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I think men of the audience. I don't

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Speaker 1: think men of the actors. Yeah, I think we're meant

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Speaker 1: of the crew and the actors.

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Speaker 3: True, they're doing a bit of the hands.

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Speaker 1: But non of the audience and got off.

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Speaker 3: But it's thankless. And I reckon that this is something

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Speaker 3: we can all do this Christmas where you get to

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Speaker 3: the end of the day or if it's on Christmas

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Speaker 3: or whatever, and just like the language of kinkeeping is

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Speaker 3: like who made this happen? Because this is and I

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Speaker 3: reckon it's about age two. It's as I've got older,

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Speaker 3: I've gone hang on a minute. This is an event

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Speaker 3: that was planned and everyone needed to know where they

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Speaker 3: were going and what to bring. I think saying thank

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Speaker 3: you and acknowledging it goes a long way because often

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Speaker 3: there's not even a thank you.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think that even if you don't because

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Speaker 2: lots of people don't celebrate Christmas as such, but it's

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Speaker 2: become such an entrenched sort of secular holiday now that

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Speaker 2: this is just the period of celebration. Isn't it like

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Speaker 2: we've got to have everybody together, We've got to do

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Speaker 2: it like this, We've got to do like that. And

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Speaker 2: out Louder was saying in the group actually recently that

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Speaker 2: she's kind of striking on the mental load side of Christmas,

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Speaker 2: and it was encouraging everyone to lower the bar because

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Speaker 2: the other thing is, and there are lots of areas

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Speaker 2: of life that are like this, is that even if

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Speaker 2: you have to host a lunch because you're the one

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Speaker 2: with the house that can fit the people in it,

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Speaker 2: or because you always do, or because your mum can't

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Speaker 2: do it anymore, or because or for whatever reason, that

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Speaker 2: lunch doesn't necessarily have to look like a spread out

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Speaker 2: of house and guard. You know what I mean. You

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily have to have all of the traditional things

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Speaker 2: that everybody likes to eat. You can just go bring

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Speaker 2: a plate, bring a plate, bring a plate, but we've

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Speaker 2: also internalized the pressure of making everything magical right. And

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Speaker 2: I'm a sucker for this because I love the magic

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Speaker 2: of Christmas. My family, we have loads of traditions.

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Speaker 1: He's still doing your full of shelf.

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Speaker 2: We still do welf on a shelf. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: kids know that it's not you know, spoiler alerts out there,

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Speaker 2: and he literally is these kids are in on the goat.

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Speaker 2: But you still do it, and you move it does

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Speaker 2: it too. It's become a thing that we all do.

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Speaker 2: We always have a rich on Christmas, if we go

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Speaker 2: for a swim somewhere. You know, we have our things

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Speaker 2: we do on Christmas morning, and I love, love, love it,

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Speaker 2: but they're all relatively low, low touch input.

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Speaker 1: For me.

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Speaker 2: The most stressful thing for me obviously is like the

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Speaker 2: present that does all still fall to me definitely is

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Speaker 2: the presence and making sure who's got and have they

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Speaker 2: got the same amount, because Christmas morning will be a

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Speaker 2: bloody war zone if Matilda's pile has got one more

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Speaker 2: present on it. But like all that stuff that stereotypically

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Speaker 2: women are definitely thinking about and that men aren't, there

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Speaker 2: is definitely an argument for us all just like letting

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Speaker 2: it all go a bit messy, I think in order

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Speaker 2: too of what's because what actually matters is the kin keeping, which,

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Speaker 2: as you said, Jesse, is a very important gig that

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Speaker 2: everybody should be doing to make each other feel important.

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Speaker 2: I have had lots of Christmases in Australia where I

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Speaker 2: didn't have family, and I was lucky enough to be

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Speaker 2: the recipient of the kindness of other people's families who

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Speaker 2: would take me in orphans Christmas. Lots of those, so

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it so much. And I don't remember what

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Speaker 2: I ate, or how fancy the table looked, or weather,

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Speaker 2: whether the wine was any good or whatever. You know,

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Speaker 2: what I remember is that someone invited me and I

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Speaker 2: was welcome, and it's just a festival togetherness in some way.

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Speaker 3: In a moment, the Only Fans creator who broke down

339
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Speaker 3: after sleeping with one hundred men in a day, but

340
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Speaker 3: now she plans to sleep with one thousand men in

341
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Speaker 3: twenty four hours. A twenty three year old Only Fans

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Speaker 3: star named Lily Phillips has a goal for February twenty

343
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Speaker 3: twenty five. She wants to be the first person ever

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Speaker 3: to have sex with one thousand men in a single day.

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Speaker 1: Her word of the year is chafing or maybe uti.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to be the first person to be with

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Speaker 3: one thousand guys in twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: Now, this isn't an easy task finding one thousand people.

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Speaker 3: So women, if you can lend me your husbands for

350
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Speaker 3: the diet, that would be amazing. At first, this might

351
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Speaker 3: just look like an attention grabbing headline, a marketing ploy

352
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Speaker 3: to generate interest in Phillips and direct people to her

353
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Speaker 3: only fans account. And perhaps that is true. But the

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Speaker 3: reason why.

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Speaker 1: This perhaps that is true, that's all this is.

356
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Speaker 3: That's part of it. But the reason why this story

357
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Speaker 3: has sparked a lot of commentary and why there's a

358
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Speaker 3: lot of interest is because of what happened last time

359
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Speaker 3: Phillips tried to stunt like this. So Phillips is a

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Speaker 3: subject of a new documentary on YouTube made by Josh

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Speaker 3: Peters titled I Slept with one hundred men in one

362
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Speaker 3: day and after that experience. Here's what she said. By

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Speaker 3: the I think like the thirty year, when we're getting

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Speaker 3: on a bet, I've got like a routine of like

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Speaker 3: how we're going to do this. It's not like normal.

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Speaker 1: So all have you even processed do you think what's happened?

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Speaker 1: Not yet?

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Speaker 2: God, I won't forget the stage.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, this is so sad, Like this is sad? Isn't

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Speaker 1: the right word. I think bleak is the word that

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Speaker 1: I thought of this sort of documentary. It's just weird.

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Speaker 1: He's trying so hard to be Luis through but interviews

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Speaker 1: her before, there's not much during because the men don't

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Speaker 1: want to be filmed, and then afterwards, and I just

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Speaker 1: found it so desperately depressing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and in some ways insightful. I thought it was

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Speaker 3: an interesting project to go learn do well what we see,

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Speaker 3: and by we, I mean the people who subscribe to

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Speaker 3: the Only Fans account. They would just see the footage, right,

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Speaker 3: and then you see a TikTok or an Instagram reil

381
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Speaker 3: of the person saying I just did this, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about Bonnie Blue recently, these sex workers who

383
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Speaker 3: talk about that. But what this did was showed directly afterwards,

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Speaker 3: she came out and sort of said, oh, I'm a

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Speaker 3: bit worried that I let some of the men down.

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Speaker 3: And then she totally broke down. And that's when we

387
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Speaker 3: heard a really candid emotional response to what had just happened.

388
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Speaker 3: And the reason this captured people's attention is because I'd

389
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Speaker 3: never seen that before. I'd never seen that side of OnlyFans,

390
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Speaker 3: And she said if it hadn't been filmed, she wouldn't

391
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Speaker 3: have believed it. When the documentary crew walked in afterwards,

392
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Speaker 3: there's vision of condoms and rappers all over the floor.

393
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Speaker 3: They gagged because the smells, and the camera operator started gagging.

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Speaker 3: Her eyes apparently were stinging from the bodily fluids that

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Speaker 3: went in them, and.

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Speaker 1: She specifically asked them not to do that, and they

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Speaker 1: all did that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: She reflects on how when people support you and encourage

399
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Speaker 3: these pursuits, it's really hard to let them down, and

400
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Speaker 3: she said she wouldn't recommend it. Through tears, she said

401
00:19:33,367 --> 00:19:36,127
Speaker 3: it made her feel bad, tired, and emotional and it

402
00:19:36,207 --> 00:19:39,687
Speaker 3: wasn't what she expected. Many of the interactions weren't positive,

403
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Speaker 3: as you said me out, with some men complaining that

404
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Speaker 3: they didn't receive their full five minutes. The question then

405
00:19:45,687 --> 00:19:49,967
Speaker 3: becomes why try again, why go further? And has this

406
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Speaker 3: revealed a truth about these stunts?

407
00:19:53,527 --> 00:19:57,367
Speaker 2: Holly, it's so interesting. I sort of whizzed through it

408
00:19:57,527 --> 00:20:01,487
Speaker 2: to watch various bits of it so interesting because I

409
00:20:01,527 --> 00:20:04,007
Speaker 2: think in a way, the fact that everybody's loving this

410
00:20:04,207 --> 00:20:07,087
Speaker 2: footage of her crying, that's because it plays to a

411
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Speaker 2: story that we want to tell of Horse. It's devastating. Course,

412
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Speaker 2: she's feeling soul hurt by what she just did. But

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Speaker 2: to be really fair and clear, that interview was conducted

414
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Speaker 2: immediately afterwards, right, So she had literally just sent the

415
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Speaker 2: last man out, she'd had a shower, and she was

416
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Speaker 2: waiting to eat her Nando's burger and the documentary crew

417
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Speaker 2: comes in. So I don't know that that's really entirely

418
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Speaker 2: representative of how she feels about the whole stunt. It's

419
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Speaker 2: how she felt right then, completely overwhelmed, And the fact

420
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Speaker 2: that she then went back and said I'm going to

421
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Speaker 2: do it again suggests that, you know, with a bit

422
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Speaker 2: of processing time, her view on it had shifted. The

423
00:20:46,647 --> 00:20:48,927
Speaker 2: thing that's so interesting to me because this is a

424
00:20:48,967 --> 00:20:51,647
Speaker 2: world I don't know much about, the only fans world.

425
00:20:51,807 --> 00:20:56,207
Speaker 2: So I was like, how does she make money? So Jesse,

426
00:20:56,327 --> 00:20:58,927
Speaker 2: it's not like the men who were coming, like literally

427
00:20:58,927 --> 00:21:01,127
Speaker 2: coming to her house though, well, it's actually an airbnb

428
00:21:01,207 --> 00:21:02,927
Speaker 2: in a really posh part of London. They set up

429
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Speaker 2: for the day. The men go and they are queuing up,

430
00:21:04,927 --> 00:21:07,127
Speaker 2: literally queuing up. You saw the footage of all their

431
00:21:07,167 --> 00:21:09,807
Speaker 2: trainers outside the door. They're queuing up. So they're not

432
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Speaker 2: paying her, right.

433
00:21:11,167 --> 00:21:14,807
Speaker 3: No, they're not paying her. This is a stunt that

434
00:21:14,887 --> 00:21:18,607
Speaker 3: once it is put on her OnlyFans channel, it's going

435
00:21:18,687 --> 00:21:22,367
Speaker 3: to make her money through subscriptions. It also is headline grabbing.

436
00:21:22,447 --> 00:21:22,607
Speaker 1: Yep.

437
00:21:22,687 --> 00:21:23,167
Speaker 3: So it's smart.

438
00:21:23,327 --> 00:21:25,607
Speaker 2: Yes, it's mad because the men who are coming. I

439
00:21:25,647 --> 00:21:27,807
Speaker 2: know everyone's laughing when I said, but who are going

440
00:21:27,887 --> 00:21:31,247
Speaker 2: to queue and stand in that queue? They have probably

441
00:21:31,287 --> 00:21:34,087
Speaker 2: seen her, They probably follow her. This is their chance

442
00:21:34,167 --> 00:21:36,207
Speaker 2: to have sex with the woman that they see having

443
00:21:36,247 --> 00:21:40,007
Speaker 2: sex on only fans all the time, right, So that's interesting.

444
00:21:40,207 --> 00:21:44,447
Speaker 2: The documentary maker interviews a couple of those guys and

445
00:21:45,047 --> 00:21:47,847
Speaker 2: one of them says that he feels a bit icky

446
00:21:47,847 --> 00:21:49,967
Speaker 2: about it because if anyone found out, he gets thrown

447
00:21:50,007 --> 00:21:53,047
Speaker 2: out of home, which suggests something to you. Another guy

448
00:21:53,087 --> 00:21:55,327
Speaker 2: had come all the way from another country in Europe

449
00:21:55,327 --> 00:21:57,087
Speaker 2: and he said, this is the most expensive shag I've

450
00:21:57,127 --> 00:21:59,487
Speaker 2: ever had. You had to get an STD check and

451
00:21:59,487 --> 00:22:01,167
Speaker 2: that costs two hundred pounds and he had to complain

452
00:22:01,207 --> 00:22:04,807
Speaker 2: about that, like I'm fascinated by the guys who want

453
00:22:04,887 --> 00:22:07,247
Speaker 2: to do this as much as I am by Lily,

454
00:22:07,487 --> 00:22:10,287
Speaker 2: who most through all the rest of the documentary makes

455
00:22:10,327 --> 00:22:12,727
Speaker 2: it very clear that she wants to do this. I

456
00:22:12,847 --> 00:22:15,407
Speaker 2: wonder if the reason we all like this footage of

457
00:22:15,407 --> 00:22:18,927
Speaker 2: her crying is because it makes us go see all

458
00:22:18,967 --> 00:22:20,567
Speaker 2: the things I know to be true about women in

459
00:22:20,567 --> 00:22:22,327
Speaker 2: the way if they feel about sex are true. There's

460
00:22:22,327 --> 00:22:24,247
Speaker 2: no way that woman could be happy. There's no way

461
00:22:24,247 --> 00:22:26,287
Speaker 2: that woman could be comfortable with what she'd done.

462
00:22:26,687 --> 00:22:29,487
Speaker 3: Yes, think, but it appeals to the instinct that we

463
00:22:29,607 --> 00:22:33,127
Speaker 3: have about that industry. But I would also say, and

464
00:22:33,207 --> 00:22:35,447
Speaker 3: I know that it can be an unpopular opinion because

465
00:22:35,487 --> 00:22:40,407
Speaker 3: it sounds judgmental, but I think that that instinct is

466
00:22:40,487 --> 00:22:43,607
Speaker 3: also fair. There would be a lot of people doing that.

467
00:22:43,927 --> 00:22:47,727
Speaker 3: When you live in a society that tells you that

468
00:22:47,767 --> 00:22:50,847
Speaker 3: it is noble to earn money regardless of how you

469
00:22:50,887 --> 00:22:54,247
Speaker 3: do it, then that is the end point. I also

470
00:22:54,287 --> 00:22:57,087
Speaker 3: think that where Lily Phillips, she talks about being at

471
00:22:57,207 --> 00:23:00,087
Speaker 3: university and she was having casual sex with men and

472
00:23:00,367 --> 00:23:04,007
Speaker 3: refers to herself as a slut at university, and then

473
00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:05,807
Speaker 3: she says, I thought, why couldn't I make money out

474
00:23:05,807 --> 00:23:08,287
Speaker 3: of this, which a lot of women have said. I

475
00:23:08,287 --> 00:23:10,287
Speaker 3: think that's an indict and on the type of sex

476
00:23:10,327 --> 00:23:13,207
Speaker 3: young women are having. If you're having sex where you go,

477
00:23:13,407 --> 00:23:15,807
Speaker 3: this is so meaningless and this is so transactional that

478
00:23:15,847 --> 00:23:17,807
Speaker 3: I might as well just be making money then.

479
00:23:17,967 --> 00:23:20,967
Speaker 1: But the other way to look at it is saying, like,

480
00:23:21,007 --> 00:23:23,247
Speaker 1: find a way to get paid for what you love doing.

481
00:23:23,687 --> 00:23:26,887
Speaker 3: There is something, though, can we acknowledge that there is

482
00:23:26,967 --> 00:23:31,727
Speaker 3: something about the body, and there is something about sexual

483
00:23:31,847 --> 00:23:35,927
Speaker 3: acts men or women. There's something energetically about that that

484
00:23:36,007 --> 00:23:40,607
Speaker 3: I think any woman or man listening would go that

485
00:23:40,927 --> 00:23:43,167
Speaker 3: takes something from you. I don't think that that's a

486
00:23:43,247 --> 00:23:44,447
Speaker 3: puritanical view.

487
00:23:44,927 --> 00:23:47,247
Speaker 2: Do you think that way about the hundred manicured Yeah?

488
00:23:47,287 --> 00:23:47,487
Speaker 1: I do.

489
00:23:47,647 --> 00:23:49,447
Speaker 2: They are just a little bit of their soul for

490
00:23:49,807 --> 00:23:50,807
Speaker 2: like participating in.

491
00:23:50,887 --> 00:23:54,087
Speaker 3: The stunt, yep, I do. If you knew, I bet

492
00:23:54,127 --> 00:23:54,567
Speaker 3: they all.

493
00:23:54,447 --> 00:23:57,287
Speaker 2: Just went home to their girlfriend's wives or whatever and thought

494
00:23:57,287 --> 00:23:58,007
Speaker 2: like that was funny.

495
00:23:58,047 --> 00:23:59,847
Speaker 1: I'll tell my mate about that. Well, you know, I

496
00:24:00,047 --> 00:24:02,727
Speaker 1: had sex with one person that day. She had sex

497
00:24:02,767 --> 00:24:03,687
Speaker 1: with one hundred.

498
00:24:03,567 --> 00:24:07,327
Speaker 3: Yes, And it got me thinking about only fans like

499
00:24:07,367 --> 00:24:10,607
Speaker 3: the name of it, right. And the contradiction is that

500
00:24:10,767 --> 00:24:15,807
Speaker 3: they're not your fans. They're not fans. Sex plays into

501
00:24:15,847 --> 00:24:19,007
Speaker 3: this weird thing where you can have sex with someone

502
00:24:19,087 --> 00:24:23,447
Speaker 3: you hate, like arousal and desire and the mess and

503
00:24:23,527 --> 00:24:26,927
Speaker 3: power dynamics of sex means that people can subscribe to

504
00:24:27,007 --> 00:24:29,607
Speaker 3: your channel and pay you money and not be a

505
00:24:29,647 --> 00:24:33,647
Speaker 3: fan of you or like you. And I do worry

506
00:24:33,687 --> 00:24:35,847
Speaker 3: that she is a twenty three year old. When twenty

507
00:24:35,887 --> 00:24:39,447
Speaker 3: three year old's enter the workplace, generally speaking, let's hope

508
00:24:39,487 --> 00:24:42,047
Speaker 3: there's an HR department, and there might be a mentor,

509
00:24:42,327 --> 00:24:44,847
Speaker 3: and there might be a whole bureaucracy that is doing

510
00:24:44,887 --> 00:24:47,687
Speaker 3: something to protect you in the workplace. She's the boss

511
00:24:47,727 --> 00:24:50,247
Speaker 3: of eight or nine people. There was a back and

512
00:24:50,287 --> 00:24:52,527
Speaker 3: forth where someone said, like, are you worried about HIV?

513
00:24:52,607 --> 00:24:54,847
Speaker 3: And it was clear that she didn't quite understand the question,

514
00:24:55,407 --> 00:24:56,647
Speaker 3: as you wouldn't at twenty three.

515
00:24:56,727 --> 00:24:59,887
Speaker 1: Hang on a second, she's twenty three. Anybody who is

516
00:24:59,927 --> 00:25:04,327
Speaker 1: having sex should understand, Harris, tds are communicated and how

517
00:25:04,407 --> 00:25:09,927
Speaker 1: pregnancy occurs. That is like the basic baseline of understanding

518
00:25:10,327 --> 00:25:12,447
Speaker 1: before you are mature enough to.

519
00:25:12,447 --> 00:25:15,567
Speaker 3: Be able to have sex, particularly when you're sleeping with

520
00:25:15,567 --> 00:25:16,327
Speaker 3: one hundred people.

521
00:25:17,247 --> 00:25:20,487
Speaker 1: But my view on this is this idea, because we

522
00:25:20,567 --> 00:25:23,447
Speaker 1: live in an attention economy. The way to get attention

523
00:25:24,327 --> 00:25:28,887
Speaker 1: is to continue to escalate and become more and more extreme.

524
00:25:28,927 --> 00:25:31,527
Speaker 1: And now we're seeing this stunt sex. Whether it's going

525
00:25:31,567 --> 00:25:35,127
Speaker 1: to school is, whether it's being called the most sexually

526
00:25:35,167 --> 00:25:39,847
Speaker 1: promiscuous women in Australia, these are all ways to market

527
00:25:39,887 --> 00:25:42,447
Speaker 1: your brand. These are all titles that you can use

528
00:25:42,807 --> 00:25:46,647
Speaker 1: to grow your brand in a very competitive marketplace where

529
00:25:46,687 --> 00:25:50,127
Speaker 1: anybody in the world who has a body and an

530
00:25:50,167 --> 00:25:55,007
Speaker 1: Internet connection can make money from their body. And for

531
00:25:55,087 --> 00:25:57,567
Speaker 1: some women, what it used to be seen as was

532
00:25:57,887 --> 00:26:01,327
Speaker 1: only fans was a way for some women to make

533
00:26:01,927 --> 00:26:05,607
Speaker 1: money off their body without having to touch another person,

534
00:26:05,727 --> 00:26:08,287
Speaker 1: like some people do use only fans for that selling

535
00:26:08,287 --> 00:26:11,887
Speaker 1: photos of themselves or videos or whatever it was. But

536
00:26:12,127 --> 00:26:16,127
Speaker 1: this idea, now of the stunts, how do you top

537
00:26:16,167 --> 00:26:19,127
Speaker 1: one hundred? One hundred and one? Isn't that interesting? You

538
00:26:19,247 --> 00:26:24,327
Speaker 1: have to do a thousand and the dehumanization and of

539
00:26:24,327 --> 00:26:26,967
Speaker 1: course the media covers it because it's interesting, and we're

540
00:26:26,967 --> 00:26:29,407
Speaker 1: talking about it now because it's interesting to try to

541
00:26:29,407 --> 00:26:32,447
Speaker 1: get your head around it. But back to what Holly

542
00:26:32,527 --> 00:26:35,527
Speaker 1: was saying earlier about she was crying, but maybe that

543
00:26:35,607 --> 00:26:39,207
Speaker 1: doesn't represent her full experience. Well, I watched forty minutes

544
00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:42,847
Speaker 1: of the forty three minute video of her not crying,

545
00:26:42,967 --> 00:26:44,967
Speaker 1: of her just talking about it as if she was

546
00:26:45,407 --> 00:26:47,327
Speaker 1: going to go out to a concert or going to

547
00:26:47,327 --> 00:26:49,567
Speaker 1: go on a date with a guide to dinner and

548
00:26:49,647 --> 00:26:51,127
Speaker 1: her hair and makeup and all of that, and she

549
00:26:51,127 --> 00:26:53,607
Speaker 1: looked really glamorous, and that's what you'll see on OnlyFans.

550
00:26:54,047 --> 00:26:57,607
Speaker 1: If anything, the crying is more indicative of the full

551
00:26:57,687 --> 00:27:02,847
Speaker 1: humanization of an experience than this idea of hey, lend

552
00:27:02,887 --> 00:27:05,127
Speaker 1: me husbands, I need to have sex with one thousand

553
00:27:05,127 --> 00:27:07,167
Speaker 1: people in twenty four hours, as if it's some kind

554
00:27:07,207 --> 00:27:10,647
Speaker 1: of endurance event, and it is so dehumanizing.

555
00:27:11,527 --> 00:27:14,167
Speaker 3: I think this is as.

556
00:27:14,087 --> 00:27:15,247
Speaker 1: The men as well as the women.

557
00:27:15,447 --> 00:27:18,807
Speaker 3: It's being sold to women as empowerment.

558
00:27:18,887 --> 00:27:20,847
Speaker 2: So to be clear, I just want to push back

559
00:27:20,887 --> 00:27:23,367
Speaker 2: on that a little bit because having watched this, that's

560
00:27:23,407 --> 00:27:26,087
Speaker 2: not what these women are saying. That's like a feminist

561
00:27:26,167 --> 00:27:28,527
Speaker 2: thing that we're putting on them, Like they're not sitting

562
00:27:28,567 --> 00:27:30,007
Speaker 2: there going I am empowered.

563
00:27:30,047 --> 00:27:32,887
Speaker 3: No, they're talking about the money though, and that's always

564
00:27:32,887 --> 00:27:36,847
Speaker 3: in the first paragraph. And again I don't think this

565
00:27:37,007 --> 00:27:39,887
Speaker 3: is about the criticism of any individual woman. I just

566
00:27:39,927 --> 00:27:43,207
Speaker 3: think this is a society that has told women what

567
00:27:43,247 --> 00:27:45,567
Speaker 3: their value is, that has told them that money matters

568
00:27:45,727 --> 00:27:47,807
Speaker 3: and that their body is marketable, and they go, I

569
00:27:47,887 --> 00:27:49,927
Speaker 3: made two point five million dollars off it. Look how

570
00:27:49,927 --> 00:27:52,007
Speaker 3: smart I am. And everyone's going, you're a business woman,

571
00:27:52,567 --> 00:27:55,007
Speaker 3: and I think it's okay for some of us to go.

572
00:27:55,767 --> 00:27:58,807
Speaker 3: I don't accept that. Like been reading this book called

573
00:27:58,887 --> 00:28:02,727
Speaker 3: Doppelgang Up by Naomi Klin, and she writes about how

574
00:28:03,127 --> 00:28:06,447
Speaker 3: once you've pillaged all the resources in the world, you've

575
00:28:06,487 --> 00:28:08,487
Speaker 3: sold everything that can possibly be sold, the only thing

576
00:28:08,527 --> 00:28:11,767
Speaker 3: left is you and your Anyone who has had to

577
00:28:11,847 --> 00:28:15,207
Speaker 3: confront the idea of personal brand has grappled with this,

578
00:28:15,687 --> 00:28:19,647
Speaker 3: that it is deeply uncomfortable that you cross lines all

579
00:28:19,687 --> 00:28:22,647
Speaker 3: the time, that you don't feel comfortable with this, to

580
00:28:22,727 --> 00:28:25,487
Speaker 3: me is the end result of that. That's like, I

581
00:28:25,607 --> 00:28:27,927
Speaker 3: have this, I have my arms and my legs and

582
00:28:27,967 --> 00:28:31,927
Speaker 3: my lady parts that I can sell.

583
00:28:31,647 --> 00:28:33,887
Speaker 1: But it's not up to us to say what she

584
00:28:34,007 --> 00:28:35,807
Speaker 1: should or shouldn't sell.

585
00:28:36,367 --> 00:28:38,847
Speaker 2: And also, it's called the oldest profession in the world

586
00:28:39,007 --> 00:28:40,127
Speaker 2: sex work, right, And.

587
00:28:40,047 --> 00:28:42,367
Speaker 1: This is not a diss on sex work, it's clear.

588
00:28:42,207 --> 00:28:44,007
Speaker 2: But it is sex work. Right, what she is doing

589
00:28:44,007 --> 00:28:47,247
Speaker 2: is sex work. And the thing is is that whether

590
00:28:47,367 --> 00:28:50,087
Speaker 2: or not you think it's empowering, and whether or not

591
00:28:50,207 --> 00:28:54,447
Speaker 2: you think that it is dehumanizing and soul destroying, at

592
00:28:54,447 --> 00:28:58,727
Speaker 2: the end of the day, these women are controlling something,

593
00:28:58,807 --> 00:29:01,287
Speaker 2: that they are taking control of, something that would be

594
00:29:01,287 --> 00:29:05,607
Speaker 2: happening anyway anywhere, and that traditionally men were making all

595
00:29:05,647 --> 00:29:07,927
Speaker 2: the money from and they are seeing this as a

596
00:29:07,967 --> 00:29:10,567
Speaker 2: way that they can control. Now, whether or not that

597
00:29:10,607 --> 00:29:14,287
Speaker 2: control is an illusion, because as she said in this

598
00:29:14,367 --> 00:29:15,967
Speaker 2: piece when she was talking about the way that some

599
00:29:15,967 --> 00:29:17,687
Speaker 2: of the men in the room behaved when she'd asked

600
00:29:17,687 --> 00:29:19,647
Speaker 2: them to behave otherwise, whether or not that control is

601
00:29:19,687 --> 00:29:22,367
Speaker 2: an illusion is an interesting point. But at the end

602
00:29:22,367 --> 00:29:26,287
Speaker 2: of the day, it's not that I'm sitting there thinking, oh, great,

603
00:29:26,407 --> 00:29:28,727
Speaker 2: go for it. That's amazing. It was very clear that

604
00:29:28,767 --> 00:29:30,447
Speaker 2: this was a very difficult experience for her, and the

605
00:29:30,447 --> 00:29:32,487
Speaker 2: fact she's going to do it again it's even logistically

606
00:29:32,527 --> 00:29:35,287
Speaker 2: just difficult to imagine. Because the thing about this documentary

607
00:29:35,287 --> 00:29:36,887
Speaker 2: is they showed you that actually it was quite hard

608
00:29:36,887 --> 00:29:38,967
Speaker 2: to get one hundred men in one place in that time,

609
00:29:39,047 --> 00:29:40,807
Speaker 2: get them in and out, like God knows how they're

610
00:29:40,807 --> 00:29:44,207
Speaker 2: going to do but the fact that I wouldn't choose

611
00:29:44,247 --> 00:29:46,567
Speaker 2: to do it, and that to me it seems entirely overwhelming.

612
00:29:46,607 --> 00:29:48,887
Speaker 2: That isn't the end of the story. She does have

613
00:29:49,047 --> 00:29:50,567
Speaker 2: the agency to be able to choose to do it.

614
00:29:50,607 --> 00:29:53,367
Speaker 2: The thing that I find more uncomfortable MEA touched on

615
00:29:53,367 --> 00:29:56,927
Speaker 2: this before, is that if you go and follow Lily

616
00:29:57,207 --> 00:30:00,007
Speaker 2: or Bonnie Blue or any of these only fans creators

617
00:30:00,047 --> 00:30:05,007
Speaker 2: on another platform like Instagram, they are entirely indistinguishable from

618
00:30:05,047 --> 00:30:06,767
Speaker 2: any of the other influencers, right. So it's all like,

619
00:30:07,247 --> 00:30:09,967
Speaker 2: here's my lovely healthy smoothie this morning, Come shopping with me.

620
00:30:10,007 --> 00:30:13,567
Speaker 2: They gorgeous, they're healthy, They're like living the life that

621
00:30:13,847 --> 00:30:17,727
Speaker 2: is broadly seen as very aspirational, and it's very sanitized,

622
00:30:17,847 --> 00:30:20,407
Speaker 2: right that view of it. So, and I don't want

623
00:30:20,407 --> 00:30:22,487
Speaker 2: to be like Pearl Clutchy about young women, but I'm

624
00:30:22,527 --> 00:30:26,047
Speaker 2: thinking it's easy to see why it seems aspirational and

625
00:30:26,087 --> 00:30:29,167
Speaker 2: appealing to do this. And then I guess you could

626
00:30:29,247 --> 00:30:32,687
Speaker 2: argue that this documentary lifted the tiniest of lids on

627
00:30:32,767 --> 00:30:35,007
Speaker 2: the actual nuts and bolts of what it's like to

628
00:30:35,047 --> 00:30:37,007
Speaker 2: do this and how you might feel about it. That's

629
00:30:37,047 --> 00:30:39,727
Speaker 2: why I find it fascinating. I don't think it is

630
00:30:39,767 --> 00:30:42,807
Speaker 2: the signal that our culture is entirely corrupt, because I

631
00:30:42,807 --> 00:30:44,287
Speaker 2: think that as long as there are men who are

632
00:30:44,287 --> 00:30:47,887
Speaker 2: prepared to pay for sex basically and women, then this

633
00:30:48,047 --> 00:30:49,727
Speaker 2: is going to go on. Would I rather that women

634
00:30:49,767 --> 00:30:51,127
Speaker 2: are making the money, Yes, I would.

635
00:30:51,247 --> 00:30:53,127
Speaker 3: That's a good point. I don't want to come across

636
00:30:53,127 --> 00:30:55,527
Speaker 3: as critical of sex workers because I think it's the

637
00:30:55,647 --> 00:30:59,247
Speaker 3: stunt nature of it that's making me go. You can

638
00:30:59,247 --> 00:31:02,807
Speaker 3: control everything, you can't control how something is going to

639
00:31:02,927 --> 00:31:06,087
Speaker 3: leave you feeling, and that's the case for actually any

640
00:31:06,127 --> 00:31:09,527
Speaker 3: work and also any sex. I think. But there are

641
00:31:09,527 --> 00:31:13,207
Speaker 3: probably women watching that going I've had a sexual experience

642
00:31:13,287 --> 00:31:15,767
Speaker 3: that I consented to, that I thought about and that

643
00:31:15,847 --> 00:31:17,007
Speaker 3: afterwards didn't.

644
00:31:16,767 --> 00:31:17,487
Speaker 2: Make me feel good.

645
00:31:17,807 --> 00:31:18,047
Speaker 1: I know.

646
00:31:18,127 --> 00:31:19,927
Speaker 2: But then there are also women listening to that who

647
00:31:19,967 --> 00:31:22,887
Speaker 2: are thinking, I had casual sex and I really enjoyed it.

648
00:31:23,087 --> 00:31:26,167
Speaker 1: She did say in an earlier part of the documentary,

649
00:31:26,207 --> 00:31:28,047
Speaker 1: she said, I know that I'm part of the problem

650
00:31:28,687 --> 00:31:33,447
Speaker 1: because if guys are watching my only fans what they

651
00:31:33,567 --> 00:31:37,847
Speaker 1: might expect from the women in their lives, and she

652
00:31:37,927 --> 00:31:40,447
Speaker 1: listed a few things that they might expect that she

653
00:31:40,647 --> 00:31:45,007
Speaker 1: does on camera quite happily for money. She said, that's terrible.

654
00:31:45,287 --> 00:31:47,007
Speaker 1: I know that I'm part of the problem. So she

655
00:31:47,047 --> 00:31:51,247
Speaker 1: does have an awareness, But ultimately, what's her responsibility to

656
00:31:51,327 --> 00:31:55,367
Speaker 1: anyone other than herself. She's not responsible for anybody else. Guys,

657
00:31:55,407 --> 00:31:59,607
Speaker 1: tis the season to be sent a cruise cake? Tom

658
00:31:59,687 --> 00:32:03,007
Speaker 1: Cruise sends out, I'm not the excited noise you can

659
00:32:03,047 --> 00:32:07,807
Speaker 1: hear in the background. Oh, is producer Ruth putting down

660
00:32:08,047 --> 00:32:11,127
Speaker 1: our very own version of the cruise cake, which he

661
00:32:11,167 --> 00:32:15,367
Speaker 1: hasn't sent us, but which she has kindly, astonishingly replicated

662
00:32:15,847 --> 00:32:16,807
Speaker 1: in her own kickhake.

663
00:32:16,887 --> 00:32:19,247
Speaker 3: Before we cut into it, can you please explain to

664
00:32:19,327 --> 00:32:21,047
Speaker 3: us what the Tom cruise cake is? Because Holly and

665
00:32:21,087 --> 00:32:23,007
Speaker 3: I hadn't heard of this, but apparently you think about

666
00:32:23,047 --> 00:32:23,487
Speaker 3: this often.

667
00:32:23,567 --> 00:32:26,047
Speaker 1: Everybody knows about the cruise cake. It would seem this

668
00:32:26,127 --> 00:32:27,607
Speaker 1: is very much an all or notough thing. You either

669
00:32:27,647 --> 00:32:29,407
Speaker 1: know all about the cruise cake, as I do, or

670
00:32:29,447 --> 00:32:32,567
Speaker 1: nothing about it, which you too don't. The cruise cake

671
00:32:32,847 --> 00:32:35,727
Speaker 1: is a very famous cake. It is a white chocolate

672
00:32:35,727 --> 00:32:39,607
Speaker 1: coconut bunt cake made by Doan's Bakery, which is a

673
00:32:39,607 --> 00:32:42,327
Speaker 1: family owned bakery in Woodland Hills, California.

674
00:32:42,447 --> 00:32:43,727
Speaker 3: Doesn't even make.

675
00:32:43,567 --> 00:32:45,247
Speaker 1: It no, no, of course he doesn't make it. He

676
00:32:45,287 --> 00:32:48,007
Speaker 1: was first introduced to it by Diane Keaton when she

677
00:32:48,207 --> 00:32:51,087
Speaker 1: was on a movie called Bad Money with his then

678
00:32:51,167 --> 00:32:55,007
Speaker 1: wife Katie Holmes in two thousand and eight, and like

679
00:32:55,047 --> 00:32:57,607
Speaker 1: got quite a cult following, and Tom liked it so much.

680
00:32:58,087 --> 00:32:59,607
Speaker 1: I don't know what he used to send out to

681
00:32:59,647 --> 00:33:02,687
Speaker 1: his Christmas list before that, but since about two thousand

682
00:33:02,687 --> 00:33:06,367
Speaker 1: and nine or twenty ten, who's been sending out several hundred.

683
00:33:06,767 --> 00:33:08,687
Speaker 1: No one knows exactly the amount.

684
00:33:08,767 --> 00:33:10,807
Speaker 3: So it's like his Christmas card is this cake.

685
00:33:11,287 --> 00:33:13,767
Speaker 2: If you get this coconut cake from Tom Cruise, you

686
00:33:13,807 --> 00:33:15,727
Speaker 2: know you are in the circle exactly.

687
00:33:15,527 --> 00:33:17,887
Speaker 3: Which we have this year. This is our first Cruiz

688
00:33:17,927 --> 00:33:18,327
Speaker 3: Cake year.

689
00:33:19,487 --> 00:33:22,407
Speaker 1: The list includes Kirsten Duntz, who made Interview with The

690
00:33:22,447 --> 00:33:28,007
Speaker 1: Vampire with him, Henry Cavill, Angela Bassett, Graham, Norton Rose o'donald.

691
00:33:27,527 --> 00:33:29,927
Speaker 3: Guys, it's like cunning through concrete.

692
00:33:30,007 --> 00:33:32,647
Speaker 1: Some people go on and off the list, like Brooks.

693
00:33:32,647 --> 00:33:35,487
Speaker 1: Shields said she had a ten good year run with

694
00:33:35,527 --> 00:33:38,967
Speaker 1: the cakes after he insulted her by saying that she

695
00:33:42,607 --> 00:33:44,247
Speaker 1: so he felt a bit bad about that, so she

696
00:33:44,687 --> 00:33:47,487
Speaker 1: was on his list for a while. The cake usually

697
00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:51,127
Speaker 1: arrives in early December, and Jimmy Fallon has publicly gushed

698
00:33:51,127 --> 00:33:53,647
Speaker 1: about how delicious it is. A lot of celebrities, like

699
00:33:53,687 --> 00:33:56,207
Speaker 1: Glenn Powell says that he got his he posted on

700
00:33:56,247 --> 00:33:59,007
Speaker 1: Insta and he had people over a lot of people

701
00:33:59,007 --> 00:34:05,047
Speaker 1: have tastings. So producer Ruth, oh my god, Oh my god,

702
00:34:05,087 --> 00:34:07,567
Speaker 1: it looks amazing. So it's like quite a dense cake.

703
00:34:07,847 --> 00:34:10,847
Speaker 1: It is has it's got like white chocolate through it,

704
00:34:10,887 --> 00:34:13,007
Speaker 1: and then it's got like a cream cheesy frosting with

705
00:34:13,127 --> 00:34:14,207
Speaker 1: toasted coconut flakes.

706
00:34:14,247 --> 00:34:15,727
Speaker 3: And this is the closest we're ever going to get

707
00:34:15,727 --> 00:34:16,327
Speaker 3: to Tom Cruise.

708
00:34:16,407 --> 00:34:18,367
Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine if you were on the list and then

709
00:34:18,407 --> 00:34:19,807
Speaker 2: you weren't on the list and you were just waiting

710
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:20,727
Speaker 2: for your cake to arrive.

711
00:34:20,967 --> 00:34:23,887
Speaker 3: I know, I have a thing about the asmr of

712
00:34:23,927 --> 00:34:26,247
Speaker 3: people eating it really really bothers me. So if you're that,

713
00:34:26,367 --> 00:34:31,327
Speaker 3: oh no, no, I can't scientology. We feel sick. Eat

714
00:34:31,367 --> 00:34:33,087
Speaker 3: it away from the mic, hats some respect.

715
00:34:33,567 --> 00:34:35,007
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so good.

716
00:34:35,527 --> 00:34:38,647
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Ruth, are you're a scientologist?

717
00:34:39,607 --> 00:34:39,807
Speaker 1: Vibes.

718
00:34:39,887 --> 00:34:42,647
Speaker 3: It's actually really good and this is what people should

719
00:34:42,647 --> 00:34:43,607
Speaker 3: be having on Christmas Day.

720
00:34:43,687 --> 00:34:44,207
Speaker 2: I'm a hobbit.

721
00:34:44,247 --> 00:34:46,247
Speaker 1: I only really like to eat cake with tea. Does

722
00:34:46,287 --> 00:34:49,367
Speaker 1: this mean I'm clear? Yes, I feel like I've gone clear.

723
00:34:49,407 --> 00:34:51,327
Speaker 3: It's really good out that this makes me like Tom

724
00:34:51,367 --> 00:34:52,847
Speaker 3: Cruise like fifteen percent more.

725
00:34:53,247 --> 00:34:54,767
Speaker 2: I'm putting this out as a request for.

726
00:34:54,767 --> 00:34:57,167
Speaker 3: Our birthday cake. It's our birthday cake.

727
00:34:57,247 --> 00:34:58,007
Speaker 2: Thank you, Tom.

728
00:34:57,887 --> 00:34:59,887
Speaker 3: Cruise finally acknowledging us.

729
00:35:01,447 --> 00:35:04,167
Speaker 1: After the break, she found fame writing books about looking

730
00:35:04,207 --> 00:35:07,527
Speaker 1: for love, but now author Elizabeth Gilbert is embracing not

731
00:35:07,647 --> 00:35:14,607
Speaker 1: being in love. Elizabeth Gilbert wants to rebrand life after

732
00:35:14,687 --> 00:35:19,007
Speaker 1: divorce instead of it being a waiting room between romantic partners.

733
00:35:19,727 --> 00:35:23,047
Speaker 1: She says that she's sworn off dating and relationships at

734
00:35:23,087 --> 00:35:25,807
Speaker 1: the age of fifty five, and instead she wants to

735
00:35:25,887 --> 00:35:30,367
Speaker 1: give herself the gift of her fifties. Quick recap in

736
00:35:30,407 --> 00:35:33,727
Speaker 1: case you can't remember who Elizabeth Gilbert is. It's been

737
00:35:33,767 --> 00:35:37,127
Speaker 1: nearly twenty years since she wrote Eat, Pray, Love, and

738
00:35:37,567 --> 00:35:42,007
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, after leaving her marriage, she

739
00:35:42,127 --> 00:35:46,687
Speaker 1: had a short lived fling with this guy who It's

740
00:35:46,727 --> 00:35:49,167
Speaker 1: funny how the breaker anyway?

741
00:35:49,567 --> 00:35:52,247
Speaker 2: One of me is specialist subjects, specialist subjects. You used

742
00:35:52,287 --> 00:35:54,927
Speaker 2: to be a big Elizabeth Gilbert. I still love her.

743
00:35:54,967 --> 00:35:56,727
Speaker 3: You still are Is she or guru?

744
00:35:56,767 --> 00:35:59,247
Speaker 1: Do you think she's one of my gurus? Yeah? She

745
00:35:59,327 --> 00:36:03,047
Speaker 1: bled my book, so I'll give you the chat JPT version.

746
00:36:03,407 --> 00:36:05,767
Speaker 1: She left her marriage in two thousand and two to

747
00:36:06,087 --> 00:36:10,087
Speaker 1: her first husband. She had a brief relationship that that

748
00:36:10,207 --> 00:36:12,767
Speaker 1: broke her heart, and that's why she decided to embark

749
00:36:12,807 --> 00:36:14,967
Speaker 1: to recover from both her divorce and this other breakup.

750
00:36:15,327 --> 00:36:17,087
Speaker 1: She was going to embark on this journey. She got

751
00:36:17,127 --> 00:36:20,767
Speaker 1: a book deal and she ate, prayed and loved her

752
00:36:20,807 --> 00:36:22,647
Speaker 1: way around the world. She went to Rome to eat,

753
00:36:22,767 --> 00:36:25,367
Speaker 1: she went to India on an ashram to pray, and

754
00:36:25,407 --> 00:36:26,967
Speaker 1: then she went to Bali where she fell in love

755
00:36:26,967 --> 00:36:29,847
Speaker 1: with a guy who would become her second husband. Then

756
00:36:30,087 --> 00:36:33,087
Speaker 1: she fell in love with a woman and her know

757
00:36:33,247 --> 00:36:36,567
Speaker 1: was Raya. It was her best friend. Raya was also

758
00:36:36,607 --> 00:36:39,407
Speaker 1: her hairdresser. Is this too much detail, Yes, darling, it is.

759
00:36:39,647 --> 00:36:41,687
Speaker 2: She was also a musician. Blah blah blah. Anyway, cut

760
00:36:41,727 --> 00:36:42,207
Speaker 2: to the chase.

761
00:36:42,647 --> 00:36:45,367
Speaker 1: Then Raya died and then she had another relationship with

762
00:36:45,407 --> 00:36:48,527
Speaker 1: a man. But she's published a lot of books. Eat, Pray, Love,

763
00:36:48,647 --> 00:36:52,407
Speaker 1: sold twelve million books. But in the last few years

764
00:36:52,727 --> 00:36:55,447
Speaker 1: she's decided, well, here's what she said. She said, I've

765
00:36:55,527 --> 00:36:57,967
Speaker 1: dated and I've been involved, but I'm not that interested.

766
00:36:58,167 --> 00:37:00,087
Speaker 1: I feel like my fifties of the decade I'm giving

767
00:37:00,087 --> 00:37:02,527
Speaker 1: myself as a gift. When I am in a relationship,

768
00:37:02,567 --> 00:37:05,167
Speaker 1: I give my whole self. I've done that all my life,

769
00:37:05,247 --> 00:37:07,887
Speaker 1: and I don't want to have that leakage anymore. It's

770
00:37:07,967 --> 00:37:10,487
Speaker 1: like a hole in the boat. It all palls out

771
00:37:10,527 --> 00:37:12,927
Speaker 1: of me and I can't seem to stop. I want

772
00:37:12,927 --> 00:37:15,887
Speaker 1: to pour into myself, my work, and my friendships. She

773
00:37:15,967 --> 00:37:18,887
Speaker 1: says that she considers herself a love and sex addict.

774
00:37:19,367 --> 00:37:22,567
Speaker 1: She goes to twelve step meetings every day for her addiction,

775
00:37:22,847 --> 00:37:25,727
Speaker 1: and she says that it takes a village. We're talking

776
00:37:25,727 --> 00:37:27,687
Speaker 1: about a village last week. It takes a village to

777
00:37:27,767 --> 00:37:31,327
Speaker 1: keep me propped up. She said. When my mind comes

778
00:37:31,327 --> 00:37:33,927
Speaker 1: after me with a knife, I turn to friends I've

779
00:37:34,007 --> 00:37:37,567
Speaker 1: known for thirty years. They are my history and know me.

780
00:37:38,047 --> 00:37:40,327
Speaker 1: Glenna Doyle's a particularly close friend of hers, and she

781
00:37:40,367 --> 00:37:42,887
Speaker 1: says we call each other all the time. And another

782
00:37:42,927 --> 00:37:45,047
Speaker 1: woman said to her recently, everything I used to think

783
00:37:45,087 --> 00:37:47,967
Speaker 1: I had to find in one man, I understand now

784
00:37:48,047 --> 00:37:51,007
Speaker 1: I can only get from a community of women. A

785
00:37:51,047 --> 00:37:54,207
Speaker 1: full community of women keep me alive, and I love it.

786
00:37:55,447 --> 00:37:59,807
Speaker 3: What she says is true, and you can absolutely get

787
00:37:59,847 --> 00:38:02,927
Speaker 3: everything that you want and need from a romantic partner

788
00:38:03,447 --> 00:38:05,407
Speaker 3: from your friends. Like I'd agree with that.

789
00:38:05,407 --> 00:38:07,687
Speaker 1: Except for the sex, unless you're having sex with your friends.

790
00:38:07,727 --> 00:38:10,087
Speaker 2: And but sex is easy these days.

791
00:38:10,287 --> 00:38:11,767
Speaker 3: Hey, Yeah, you can get I suppose you.

792
00:38:11,687 --> 00:38:13,807
Speaker 1: Can have a vibrator and you can have orgasms and

793
00:38:13,847 --> 00:38:15,167
Speaker 1: then get all the intimacy.

794
00:38:15,567 --> 00:38:18,687
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I support anyone who goes I've had enough.

795
00:38:18,847 --> 00:38:22,687
Speaker 3: I've had a history of toxic or traumatizing or just

796
00:38:22,807 --> 00:38:23,727
Speaker 3: bad relationship.

797
00:38:23,887 --> 00:38:26,207
Speaker 1: She hasn't necessarily had that, but she said, I don't

798
00:38:26,287 --> 00:38:28,407
Speaker 1: like how I disappear when I'm in a relationship.

799
00:38:28,447 --> 00:38:32,087
Speaker 3: And some of the happiest women I know are divorced

800
00:38:32,087 --> 00:38:34,007
Speaker 3: women on the other side of the divorce, Like, I

801
00:38:34,047 --> 00:38:36,767
Speaker 3: see that, and who are seeingle women who aren't looking.

802
00:38:37,327 --> 00:38:40,047
Speaker 3: But I have an addendum to this, and that is

803
00:38:40,367 --> 00:38:43,327
Speaker 3: and it's something that I've especially after this year twenty

804
00:38:43,367 --> 00:38:46,567
Speaker 3: twenty four, that I've been worrying about increasingly, and it's

805
00:38:46,647 --> 00:38:50,047
Speaker 3: that the boundaries between men and women are being drawn

806
00:38:50,127 --> 00:38:52,527
Speaker 3: more and more firmly. So if you are Elizabeth Gilbert

807
00:38:52,567 --> 00:38:54,967
Speaker 3: and your best mate is Glenn Doyle. And you have

808
00:38:55,007 --> 00:38:58,047
Speaker 3: your group of female friends and you write for women

809
00:38:58,207 --> 00:39:02,447
Speaker 3: often you can exist in this silo where you don't

810
00:39:02,487 --> 00:39:04,567
Speaker 3: have to have anything to do with men if you

811
00:39:04,647 --> 00:39:05,247
Speaker 3: don't want to.

812
00:39:05,327 --> 00:39:07,607
Speaker 2: And there's a great little silo that That's what.

813
00:39:07,567 --> 00:39:10,007
Speaker 3: I was going to say, and that comment may me Bristol.

814
00:39:10,207 --> 00:39:12,967
Speaker 3: I know that comment because.

815
00:39:12,687 --> 00:39:14,727
Speaker 1: Holly wants to go and live in lesbian separatist.

816
00:39:15,247 --> 00:39:17,287
Speaker 3: What would you if you met a man and the

817
00:39:17,287 --> 00:39:20,887
Speaker 3: man said, I don't have many female friends. I designed

818
00:39:20,887 --> 00:39:22,567
Speaker 3: my life around not seeing women.

819
00:39:22,647 --> 00:39:24,287
Speaker 1: Hang on a second, that's not what she's saying.

820
00:39:24,887 --> 00:39:25,967
Speaker 3: It's not what she's saying.

821
00:39:26,287 --> 00:39:27,287
Speaker 2: But this is the vibe.

822
00:39:27,807 --> 00:39:30,527
Speaker 3: The vibe vibe, and I've found it with podcasting. It's

823
00:39:30,527 --> 00:39:32,367
Speaker 3: something that I've been reckoning with is that we have

824
00:39:32,407 --> 00:39:33,967
Speaker 3: this podcast with the three of us women and a

825
00:39:33,967 --> 00:39:35,967
Speaker 3: lot of our audience are women, and we get to

826
00:39:35,967 --> 00:39:41,167
Speaker 3: say things that are unchecked by the male community. And

827
00:39:41,207 --> 00:39:43,847
Speaker 3: on the other side, men have their podcasts and they're

828
00:39:43,887 --> 00:39:45,727
Speaker 3: saying things about women that are going unchecked.

829
00:39:45,967 --> 00:39:47,967
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of male out louders, a lot

830
00:39:48,007 --> 00:39:49,967
Speaker 1: of them, a lot a lot of them listen on

831
00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:51,127
Speaker 1: to sufferance in the car.

832
00:39:51,167 --> 00:39:53,727
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and they're probably sitting there going I don't

833
00:39:53,767 --> 00:39:57,087
Speaker 3: agree with that or whatever. But my worry is that

834
00:39:57,127 --> 00:40:00,087
Speaker 3: when we exist in these silos and we're becoming more

835
00:40:00,127 --> 00:40:03,047
Speaker 3: and more separate, Like all the research about gen Z

836
00:40:03,127 --> 00:40:06,687
Speaker 3: in particular is saying we are living in these totally

837
00:40:06,727 --> 00:40:09,087
Speaker 3: different worlds, which is a result of algorithms and content

838
00:40:09,327 --> 00:40:11,727
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. It's just not how the world is, like,

839
00:40:11,767 --> 00:40:14,287
Speaker 3: it's a we live in a co ed world where

840
00:40:14,287 --> 00:40:16,647
Speaker 3: we have to be able to speak to each other

841
00:40:16,687 --> 00:40:18,887
Speaker 3: and engage. And I'm even thinking, and this is where

842
00:40:18,887 --> 00:40:20,967
Speaker 3: I go. But you know how the declining birth rate,

843
00:40:21,207 --> 00:40:24,247
Speaker 3: a lot of people won't even have a brother or

844
00:40:24,287 --> 00:40:28,487
Speaker 3: a sister, like You'll just be you. And I get it.

845
00:40:28,527 --> 00:40:31,527
Speaker 3: I get if you've had a really traumatizing experience with

846
00:40:31,567 --> 00:40:35,327
Speaker 3: a man. But in saying that all we need is

847
00:40:35,367 --> 00:40:39,407
Speaker 3: other women, I just worry about the knock on effects

848
00:40:39,447 --> 00:40:41,807
Speaker 3: of that if we just exist in our little echo chambers.

849
00:40:42,167 --> 00:40:45,367
Speaker 2: I need to apologize for my form of common because

850
00:40:45,407 --> 00:40:47,687
Speaker 2: you're right, You're absolutely right. I think this is less

851
00:40:47,687 --> 00:40:49,567
Speaker 2: about gender and it's more about turning you back on

852
00:40:49,687 --> 00:40:52,967
Speaker 2: romantic love, right, Because you're right that I mean, I'm

853
00:40:52,967 --> 00:40:55,327
Speaker 2: a big supporter, and we live in the co ed world. Personally,

854
00:40:55,407 --> 00:40:57,167
Speaker 2: I believe that we all have much more in common

855
00:40:57,167 --> 00:41:01,487
Speaker 2: than we do in difference. But I entirely understand the

856
00:41:01,607 --> 00:41:04,407
Speaker 2: idea because I see it around me a lot of people,

857
00:41:04,647 --> 00:41:07,647
Speaker 2: not just women, but often women, because often relationships take

858
00:41:07,687 --> 00:41:10,727
Speaker 2: a lot from women. That's a generalization, but it's often true.

859
00:41:11,527 --> 00:41:15,087
Speaker 2: Evolving beyond romantic love, we are sold from the minute

860
00:41:15,087 --> 00:41:17,207
Speaker 2: we can walk and watch a TV show or whatever

861
00:41:17,207 --> 00:41:20,287
Speaker 2: the equivalent of that is now a YouTube video at TikTok,

862
00:41:20,607 --> 00:41:22,807
Speaker 2: that romantic love is the pinnacle that we should all

863
00:41:22,887 --> 00:41:26,447
Speaker 2: aspire to, and that find the person, finds your person,

864
00:41:26,967 --> 00:41:29,647
Speaker 2: nail them down, and then you will be happy. Now,

865
00:41:29,967 --> 00:41:32,287
Speaker 2: there is some truth to that, right, that a deep

866
00:41:32,487 --> 00:41:36,527
Speaker 2: and equal connected relationship could be the absolute joy of

867
00:41:36,567 --> 00:41:38,807
Speaker 2: your life, and it is for very many people, but

868
00:41:38,847 --> 00:41:40,847
Speaker 2: it's not true for everybody. And if you are a

869
00:41:40,887 --> 00:41:43,927
Speaker 2: person who has lived a lot of your life where

870
00:41:44,007 --> 00:41:48,887
Speaker 2: relationships have brought you drama, betrayal, where you've been heartbreak broken,

871
00:41:48,967 --> 00:41:50,847
Speaker 2: where you've been taken for granted, where you've been treated

872
00:41:50,927 --> 00:41:53,247
Speaker 2: like staff, you know, just doing all the kinkeeping and

873
00:41:53,287 --> 00:41:55,367
Speaker 2: all the shitty stuff, and suddenly you get to a

874
00:41:55,367 --> 00:41:58,127
Speaker 2: point in your life where you're like, hold on, why

875
00:41:58,167 --> 00:42:01,487
Speaker 2: am I always chasing that? When actually I can get

876
00:42:01,527 --> 00:42:03,887
Speaker 2: all the love and connection I need in a different way.

877
00:42:03,927 --> 00:42:05,607
Speaker 2: Because we all know that love and connection is what

878
00:42:05,687 --> 00:42:09,167
Speaker 2: makes happy people, but love and connection can look like

879
00:42:09,367 --> 00:42:13,167
Speaker 2: lots of different things. And the erotic charge that you

880
00:42:13,247 --> 00:42:17,047
Speaker 2: get from the early relationship excitement you can replicate in

881
00:42:17,087 --> 00:42:19,327
Speaker 2: other ways too. But also maybe you feel like you've

882
00:42:19,327 --> 00:42:21,687
Speaker 2: had your for share of that. So I kind of

883
00:42:21,887 --> 00:42:25,127
Speaker 2: what I understand in this. I think it's true that

884
00:42:25,167 --> 00:42:29,567
Speaker 2: it's dangerous for us to suggest men over on that island,

885
00:42:29,567 --> 00:42:31,687
Speaker 2: women over on that island, But you know, relationships about

886
00:42:31,687 --> 00:42:33,887
Speaker 2: a lot more than that, as Liz Gilbert's history shows.

887
00:42:34,647 --> 00:42:38,967
Speaker 2: It's more saying I've evolved beyond chasing romantic love above

888
00:42:38,967 --> 00:42:42,727
Speaker 2: all things, and I have evolved beyond expecting one other

889
00:42:42,807 --> 00:42:45,807
Speaker 2: person to make me happy. And I think that that

890
00:42:46,007 --> 00:42:47,007
Speaker 2: is actually wisdom.

891
00:42:47,247 --> 00:42:49,567
Speaker 3: I think it is true. I think that she's spot on, Mayo.

892
00:42:49,647 --> 00:42:50,207
Speaker 3: What do you think?

893
00:42:50,487 --> 00:42:52,567
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I didn't. I think your take is

894
00:42:52,607 --> 00:42:57,007
Speaker 1: really interesting, Jesse, because I didn't read it as her

895
00:42:57,127 --> 00:43:01,607
Speaker 1: talking about men and women, perhaps because she's had female

896
00:43:01,687 --> 00:43:06,447
Speaker 1: romantic partners and so has Glenn and Doyle. Glennon, Doyle

897
00:43:06,527 --> 00:43:09,607
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth were both married to men before they had

898
00:43:09,647 --> 00:43:15,247
Speaker 1: relationships with women, So that's a slightly complicating factor there.

899
00:43:15,767 --> 00:43:20,207
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone whose marriage, if they're married to

900
00:43:20,247 --> 00:43:22,607
Speaker 1: a man, or their relationship to a man, is enough

901
00:43:22,647 --> 00:43:27,447
Speaker 1: to sustain them emotionally if it wasn't for their female friends.

902
00:43:28,607 --> 00:43:32,247
Speaker 1: So if you then say that, we still see.

903
00:43:32,407 --> 00:43:35,167
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to challenge you on that. Yeah, female friends,

904
00:43:35,207 --> 00:43:35,647
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

905
00:43:35,647 --> 00:43:37,527
Speaker 1: Friends, Yeah, I should just say friends.

906
00:43:37,607 --> 00:43:40,967
Speaker 3: And maybe that's the addendums saying a bunch of yeah,

907
00:43:41,127 --> 00:43:43,807
Speaker 3: bunch of my female friends, which may be true, and

908
00:43:43,807 --> 00:43:46,047
Speaker 3: it's true for a lot of people. But what I'm

909
00:43:46,087 --> 00:43:47,967
Speaker 3: trying to say is that you don't have to like

910
00:43:48,807 --> 00:43:49,847
Speaker 3: have a gender No.

911
00:43:50,007 --> 00:43:52,607
Speaker 1: I think that what this speaks to, though, is that

912
00:43:53,367 --> 00:43:55,487
Speaker 1: when you are in a if you are a woman

913
00:43:55,527 --> 00:43:57,847
Speaker 1: who is in a relationship with a man, having a

914
00:43:57,847 --> 00:44:02,167
Speaker 1: lot of male friends sometimes can be problematic for some people,

915
00:44:03,047 --> 00:44:05,727
Speaker 1: not everybody. And also just I know that you've got

916
00:44:05,807 --> 00:44:07,967
Speaker 1: really close male friends in your life. I've got one

917
00:44:08,287 --> 00:44:11,967
Speaker 1: really great male friend, but most of my friends are women.

918
00:44:12,087 --> 00:44:15,287
Speaker 1: You know. I recently went to a memorial service and

919
00:44:15,367 --> 00:44:17,087
Speaker 1: I was so struck by how many men got up

920
00:44:17,087 --> 00:44:19,527
Speaker 1: and said she was one of my closest friends, because

921
00:44:19,807 --> 00:44:22,687
Speaker 1: most of my close friends are women. So I think

922
00:44:22,727 --> 00:44:26,087
Speaker 1: it's the friend part, not the women part to me.

923
00:44:26,607 --> 00:44:29,847
Speaker 3: To me, yeah, the woman, you know what, I think

924
00:44:29,887 --> 00:44:33,647
Speaker 3: that that's a sensitivity that I'm having about a certain

925
00:44:33,967 --> 00:44:39,527
Speaker 3: faction of feminism that doesn't just feel post relationships. It

926
00:44:39,607 --> 00:44:40,447
Speaker 3: feels postman.

927
00:44:41,047 --> 00:44:42,967
Speaker 2: But you know what, Jesse, there's a reason for that,

928
00:44:43,727 --> 00:44:47,247
Speaker 2: and it's because this is the first generation of women

929
00:44:47,287 --> 00:44:49,567
Speaker 2: who are aging up who don't have to rely on

930
00:44:49,607 --> 00:44:52,207
Speaker 2: men for money. Like I know that that's a general statement,

931
00:44:52,207 --> 00:44:54,167
Speaker 2: because of course there were always women who didn't have

932
00:44:54,167 --> 00:44:56,687
Speaker 2: to rely on men for money, but as a broad cohort,

933
00:44:57,167 --> 00:44:59,207
Speaker 2: when you have all the choice of how to get

934
00:44:59,247 --> 00:45:01,767
Speaker 2: older and live the way you want to live, women

935
00:45:01,847 --> 00:45:04,407
Speaker 2: are now making different choices. We're doing some interviews on

936
00:45:04,407 --> 00:45:06,767
Speaker 2: men about this, Like, if you've got to design your

937
00:45:07,207 --> 00:45:10,407
Speaker 2: post work life or whatever however you want, and you

938
00:45:10,687 --> 00:45:12,967
Speaker 2: don't rely on a man for money, it can look

939
00:45:13,007 --> 00:45:14,327
Speaker 2: however you want, and you might go, you know what,

940
00:45:14,327 --> 00:45:15,967
Speaker 2: I don't want it to let me still picking up

941
00:45:15,967 --> 00:45:18,087
Speaker 2: his underpants. I don't want it to look like still

942
00:45:18,127 --> 00:45:20,607
Speaker 2: having the same sex I've been having for the past

943
00:45:20,967 --> 00:45:23,567
Speaker 2: twenty five years. And because women have now got the choices.

944
00:45:23,607 --> 00:45:25,447
Speaker 2: When you give women the choice, they make all kinds

945
00:45:25,447 --> 00:45:27,607
Speaker 2: of interesting choices. And one of them is this, right.

946
00:45:27,687 --> 00:45:29,527
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's funny you say that, because one of

947
00:45:29,527 --> 00:45:32,167
Speaker 1: the questions in this inter with her was what do

948
00:45:32,247 --> 00:45:35,727
Speaker 1: your fans want from you now? And she says they

949
00:45:35,807 --> 00:45:39,887
Speaker 1: want permission. They want permission to design their life in

950
00:45:39,927 --> 00:45:43,127
Speaker 1: whatever way they choose, whether it's divorcing a man who

951
00:45:43,207 --> 00:45:46,487
Speaker 1: is nice enough but just isn't enough for them, or

952
00:45:46,567 --> 00:45:50,807
Speaker 1: whether it's not having children, or whether it's remaining single

953
00:45:50,967 --> 00:45:53,727
Speaker 1: and not looking to remarry. She said, they just want

954
00:45:53,727 --> 00:45:58,127
Speaker 1: permission to not have to follow the path that they

955
00:45:58,247 --> 00:45:59,567
Speaker 1: thought was set forward.

956
00:45:59,607 --> 00:46:01,647
Speaker 3: And I see that as a total sanctuary. And I

957
00:46:01,687 --> 00:46:03,727
Speaker 3: see that in I know, in my own behavior, like

958
00:46:03,767 --> 00:46:06,727
Speaker 3: whether it's after a relationship or in new motherhood, the

959
00:46:06,767 --> 00:46:08,847
Speaker 3: way you gravitate towards women, and they can give you

960
00:46:08,847 --> 00:46:11,487
Speaker 3: something very very specific. I think it would be ridiculous

961
00:46:11,527 --> 00:46:15,047
Speaker 3: to suggest that they can't. But when there's a whole

962
00:46:15,127 --> 00:46:18,887
Speaker 3: rhetoric around the comments that I see online, and maybe

963
00:46:18,887 --> 00:46:23,287
Speaker 3: it's my algorithm, but the disdain and the rut off

964
00:46:23,687 --> 00:46:26,127
Speaker 3: repellent men as this demographic, and I think.

965
00:46:26,287 --> 00:46:27,887
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely.

966
00:46:27,607 --> 00:46:30,727
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's also understandable. You know that topic that

967
00:46:30,767 --> 00:46:33,847
Speaker 2: we just discussed about the only fans worker. All the

968
00:46:33,927 --> 00:46:36,807
Speaker 2: discussion is about her, not about the hundred men queuing

969
00:46:36,807 --> 00:46:39,847
Speaker 2: outside the door, who all clearly fee I disagree.

970
00:46:39,887 --> 00:46:41,847
Speaker 3: I a conversation is happening.

971
00:46:42,127 --> 00:46:44,727
Speaker 2: I feel like it's not that surprising from a lot

972
00:46:44,727 --> 00:46:47,327
Speaker 2: of women's lived experience and what they're seeing all around

973
00:46:47,367 --> 00:46:49,887
Speaker 2: them all the time, that some of them it feels

974
00:46:49,927 --> 00:46:51,647
Speaker 2: like a much safer place to be, to be away

975
00:46:51,647 --> 00:46:52,047
Speaker 2: from them.

976
00:46:52,087 --> 00:46:55,367
Speaker 3: How would we feel, genuine question, if someone like Leonardo

977
00:46:55,367 --> 00:46:58,087
Speaker 3: DiCaprio said I'm done with dating, I'm done with it,

978
00:46:58,127 --> 00:47:01,887
Speaker 3: I'm post romance. All I need is my four best bros.

979
00:47:01,927 --> 00:47:04,567
Speaker 2: I think that is exactly how Leonardo DiCaprio lives in

980
00:47:04,607 --> 00:47:07,007
Speaker 2: like a man gang who travel the world, doom whatever,

981
00:47:07,087 --> 00:47:08,767
Speaker 2: and they just call the women in for when they

982
00:47:08,767 --> 00:47:11,047
Speaker 2: want them. It's how a lot of rich, powerful men live.

983
00:47:11,567 --> 00:47:13,727
Speaker 3: I think sometimes we see one as toxic and one

984
00:47:13,767 --> 00:47:14,487
Speaker 3: as empowering.

985
00:47:15,087 --> 00:47:18,527
Speaker 1: Before we go, there are only eight days left until Christmas,

986
00:47:18,847 --> 00:47:20,807
Speaker 1: and if you're looking for a good last minute Christmas

987
00:47:20,887 --> 00:47:24,247
Speaker 1: gift idea. Oh have about this is so smooth of you.

988
00:47:24,327 --> 00:47:26,967
Speaker 1: Maya getting a single Lady ticket to where Mumame are

989
00:47:27,007 --> 00:47:29,767
Speaker 1: out loud Live twenty twenty five or a regular ticket

990
00:47:29,767 --> 00:47:32,047
Speaker 1: if you want to come alone. There are so many

991
00:47:32,047 --> 00:47:34,047
Speaker 1: other out louders coming. I know some of the single

992
00:47:34,087 --> 00:47:36,727
Speaker 1: Lady tickets sold out, but we've released some more. It's

993
00:47:36,767 --> 00:47:39,327
Speaker 1: the all or nothing tool presented by Niviia Cellula.

994
00:47:39,367 --> 00:47:40,847
Speaker 3: If you don't want to go to a shopping someone,

995
00:47:40,967 --> 00:47:42,927
Speaker 3: you don't want to park, you don't want to elbow

996
00:47:42,927 --> 00:47:44,927
Speaker 3: people out of the way for gifts. May I suggest

997
00:47:45,487 --> 00:47:47,167
Speaker 3: you can elbow people if you like, but you don't

998
00:47:47,207 --> 00:47:50,327
Speaker 3: have to to get a ticket. We are going to Sydney, Brisbane,

999
00:47:50,407 --> 00:47:56,007
Speaker 3: Melbourne and guys Perth completely sold out, so Sydney, Brisbane

1000
00:47:56,007 --> 00:47:59,207
Speaker 3: and Melbourne not far behind. They are selling very very fast,

1001
00:47:59,407 --> 00:48:01,127
Speaker 3: so get them why you can and give the out

1002
00:48:01,127 --> 00:48:03,727
Speaker 3: louder in your life the ultimate little treat for Christmas.

1003
00:48:03,767 --> 00:48:06,567
Speaker 2: Outloudlive dot com dot au is where you will find

1004
00:48:06,607 --> 00:48:09,047
Speaker 2: them all. Check out the show notes for that link.

1005
00:48:09,527 --> 00:48:11,407
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to you out loud us for

1006
00:48:11,447 --> 00:48:13,607
Speaker 2: being here with us at this very busy time of

1007
00:48:13,647 --> 00:48:16,207
Speaker 2: the year, and thank you to our fabulous team and

1008
00:48:16,287 --> 00:48:19,407
Speaker 2: to Ruth who made us Tom Cruise Cake. I will

1009
00:48:19,407 --> 00:48:22,047
Speaker 2: never forget it. I am going to eat all of

1010
00:48:22,087 --> 00:48:25,007
Speaker 2: this as soon as my mouth is free, and we'll

1011
00:48:25,007 --> 00:48:26,607
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.

1012
00:48:26,807 --> 00:48:27,207
Speaker 1: Bye.