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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: We don't have time. That's not going to work. We

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Speaker 2: need to do this immediately. We have to act quickly.

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Speaker 2: You are in danger. Your son is in danger. We

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Speaker 2: do not have time to explore other.

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Speaker 1: Options from Mamma. I'm Meya Friedman, and this is no filter.

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Speaker 1: It's a normal, boring weekday morning at the end of

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Speaker 1: October twenty twenty three, and you're a busy working journalist

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Speaker 1: who writes a financial advice column for New York Magazine.

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Speaker 1: You have a two year old child and a busy

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Speaker 1: day ahead of you. Your husband's already left for work,

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Speaker 1: and you've dressed your son up as a slice of

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Speaker 1: pizza because it's Halloween. Your plan for the rest of

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Speaker 1: the day is to drop him at daycare, come back

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Speaker 1: to the apartment and work, and then pick him up

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Speaker 1: in the afternoon to take him trick or trade. And

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Speaker 1: then the phone rings. Just a few hours later, you

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Speaker 1: will be alone in your bedroom in shock. After handing

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Speaker 1: over your life savings fifty thousand dollars in cash to

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Speaker 1: a stranger in the back of a car on the

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Speaker 1: street outside your apartment, begging him not to hurt your family.

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Speaker 1: That could never happen, Right, it's the plot of a thriller.

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Speaker 1: I can almost see Julia Roberts looking confused and then

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Speaker 1: panicked as she realizes what's happened. But it wasn't a movie.

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Speaker 1: It really happened to Charlotte Cow's last year, and you're

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Speaker 1: about to hear how it happened. What was said to

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Speaker 1: her on the other end of the phone that made

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Speaker 1: a young, smart, Internet savvy, highly educated and accomplished journalist

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Speaker 1: who's written about money in finance for The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: what made her hand over all her money to a stranger. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's Charlotte Cows, who has been generous enough to share

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Speaker 1: her story in the hope that it won't happened to

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Speaker 1: anyone who hears it. Because this isn't just a story

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Speaker 1: about a scam. This is a story about psychological warfare

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Speaker 1: and how it can be used on regular people like

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Speaker 1: you and me. I want to ask you, Charlotte, where

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Speaker 1: you were in your life before October of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: You're pretty successful, You are pretty successful.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I was and continued to be a journalist.

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Speaker 2: I had worked for a New York magazine for The Cut.

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Speaker 2: I was an editor there for a number of years,

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Speaker 2: and my old boss there asked me if I would

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Speaker 2: be interested in writing about personal finance for them and

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Speaker 2: doing a column. Before then, I really I had no

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Speaker 2: experience writing about money. She thought to ask me because

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Speaker 2: she remembered from various ideas meetings that I was always

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Speaker 2: really interested in the dynamics that money introduced to relationships

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Speaker 2: and really how people navigated it. And it's sort of

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Speaker 2: a rich topic, no pun intended. It shapes people's relationships

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Speaker 2: to work, to their coworkers, to their peers, to their

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Speaker 2: spouses and significant others and their friends. Especially in a

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Speaker 2: place like New York where it is so expensive and

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Speaker 2: there is a lot of money. It's sort of this

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Speaker 2: like veil over everything. So she knew that I had

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Speaker 2: been interested in that before, but also that I am

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Speaker 2: a lay person because I don't have a huge background

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Speaker 2: in personal finance. I would be approaching the topic from

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Speaker 2: the same place as most readers. So the idea was

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Speaker 2: never that I was going to be giving my own

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Speaker 2: personal finance advice. It was that I would be reporting

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Speaker 2: it out and talking to experts and sharing that advice

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Speaker 2: with readers. So I've been doing that ever since, and

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Speaker 2: I've also reported on a lot of financial topics for

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Speaker 2: The New York Times. Something that I think I have

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Speaker 2: developed a niche for doing is sort of explaining financial

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Speaker 2: topics in ways that normal people can understand. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: know a lot about it, and I think that, again

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Speaker 2: that stems from the fact that this isn't like my

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Speaker 2: native language either, So if I can understand it, then

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Speaker 2: I can hopefully explain it in a way that other

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Speaker 2: people can understand.

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Speaker 1: From a personal standpoint, You're married, you live in Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: with a young son and an old cat. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: you describe yourself as someone who is maddeningly rational and

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Speaker 1: certainly not someone who fits the profile of a scam victim.

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Speaker 1: But then everything changed on Halloween, ironically, October thirty first,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. How did your day begin on

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Speaker 1: October thirty first?

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Speaker 2: In many ways, it was a very normal day. I

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Speaker 2: had a deadline for work. It was also Halloween, and

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Speaker 2: I have a two year old, so that, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of added a little a little extra.

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Speaker 1: His first real Halloween that he was kind of ware.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. There was a Halloween parade at school, so you.

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Speaker 1: Know you dressed him up like a pizza.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Then the phone rang while you were working. It was

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Speaker 1: around lunchtime. Who was on the phone.

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Speaker 2: The first caller was a woman who said she was

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Speaker 2: calling from Amazon. She was calling to ask about suspicious

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Speaker 2: activity on my account. And I think everyone has received

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Speaker 2: calls like this from a car. I certainly have, and

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Speaker 2: Amazon does in fact, or at least at the time,

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Speaker 2: they did make outgoing calls of this nature. So at

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Speaker 2: first I really didn't think anything of it. If anything,

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Speaker 2: I was grateful to her for reaching out about this.

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Speaker 2: I'd seen headlines about scammers and Amazon, so I kind

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Speaker 2: of like seem implausible. She was very professional. She said

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Speaker 2: all of the normal things that you would hear on

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Speaker 2: a call like this, like this call is being recorded

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Speaker 2: for quality assurances. She asked me about some charges that

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Speaker 2: were absolutely not charges I had made. It was thousands

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Speaker 2: of dollars worth of electronic equipment. She said that they

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Speaker 2: had been made under my business account, and I don't

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Speaker 2: have a business account, so that's what I told her,

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Speaker 2: and she said, well, it looks like several have actually

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Speaker 2: been opened under your name, so we should report this

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Speaker 2: as an identity theft. All flag those accounts will shut

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Speaker 2: them down. And this has actually been so prevalent lately

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Speaker 2: that we're working directly with someone at the federal level

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Speaker 2: who is helping us to investigate this. Would you be

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Speaker 2: willing to speak with him? And it seemed odd to me, obviously,

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Speaker 2: But I did know and do know that scams were

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Speaker 2: proliferating rapidly, and it didn't seem entirely out of the

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Speaker 2: realm of possible that there would be some kind of

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Speaker 2: special investigation or you know, Amazon is huge, It's an

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Speaker 2: enormous retailer and millions of people use it, and if

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Speaker 2: there was, you know, something happening at large scale, I

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Speaker 2: don't know it just sure. It was just like who knows.

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Speaker 1: And also it's like it's annoying at this point, like

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Speaker 1: you're busy, you've got a deadline. It's like, yeah, I'll

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Speaker 1: talk to another guy. Can we just saw like you

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Speaker 1: weren't worried that money had come out of your account.

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Speaker 1: It was more like, oh, identity fraud, Like that's annoying,

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Speaker 1: let's just quickly sort this out. And the government agency

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Speaker 1: that she mentioned, the federal government agency was one that

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Speaker 1: you were familiar with, and it all you know, it

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Speaker 1: all checks out.

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Speaker 2: It didn't seem crazy, like no one came out of

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Speaker 2: the gate asking for money. That part didn't actually come

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Speaker 2: until hours and hours and hours later.

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Speaker 1: And that's when you were introduced to Calvin Mitchell. He

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Speaker 1: was the guy on the phone who purported to be

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Speaker 1: from the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission. How did he

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Speaker 1: convince you of his authority?

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Speaker 2: He convinced me of his authority by immediately telling me

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Speaker 2: all of the information that he knew about me. He

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Speaker 2: knew my name, obviously, but he knew my address, He

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Speaker 2: had my social Security number, he knew who I lived with,

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Speaker 2: my husband and son, and he knew the names of

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Speaker 2: my family members. And he told me that we were

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Speaker 2: being investigated, that I specifically was being investigated for fraud

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Speaker 2: and money wandering, among other things. And he told me

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Speaker 2: that we were in danger and that we were being

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Speaker 2: watched by a criminal organization that had stolen my identity

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Speaker 2: and was using it for these crimes.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the social security number,

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Speaker 1: because we don't have those in Australia. I suppose the

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Speaker 1: closest we would have would be like a tax file number,

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Speaker 1: but it's not the same a social Security number. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain the kind of what it means a social

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Speaker 1: Security number in America?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you're assigned one at birth, and it encapsulates your identity.

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Speaker 2: It is sort of the most basic form of identifying

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Speaker 2: who you are.

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Speaker 1: So you would need it if you were seeking medical care,

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Speaker 1: or if you were just applying for a driver's license,

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Speaker 1: or because for us, a tax file numbers just connected

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Speaker 1: sort of to tax and things like that, but a

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Speaker 1: social Security number is more broad, it's more right. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I assume that your Social Security number is not something

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Speaker 1: that you kind of share widely. So for someone to

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Speaker 1: know your Social Security number without you telling them, it

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Speaker 1: would seem that they were part of a legitimate government agency.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. Yes, it's not something that you just throw out.

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Speaker 2: Willy Nelly and I know a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: never put it in an email. You know, they'll only

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Speaker 2: share it over the phone. It is considered something that

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Speaker 2: is confidential.

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Speaker 1: CAW it informed you that you had twenty two bank accounts,

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Speaker 1: nine vehicles, and four properties registered in your name, and

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Speaker 1: that you'd wired more than three million dollars to Jamaica

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Speaker 1: and a ruck, and that a car had been rented

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Speaker 1: in your name and been linked to drug trafficking in

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, and that you had warrants out for your arrest.

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Speaker 1: Now when you list those things, it sounds like a

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Speaker 1: Quentin Tarantino movie, right. Can you explain what your emotional

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Speaker 1: state was at this time and how Calvin managed to

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Speaker 1: sort of drip feed these things in a way that

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Speaker 1: didn't make you go, oh, well, this is bullshit.

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Speaker 2: So I think by starting with the very specific information

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Speaker 2: that he did have about me, he had me on

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Speaker 2: the defense from the beginning. And also by leading with

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Speaker 2: the fact that we were in danger and that we

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Speaker 2: were being watched. I think that really made me sit

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Speaker 2: up and listen. And while the rest of that information

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Speaker 2: seemed so ridiculous, Like I was laughing as he was

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Speaker 2: saying it, I was like, this is absurd. It's a

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Speaker 2: tactic of snowing you with information so that you can't

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Speaker 2: get a word in, and every time you're like, well

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Speaker 2: that's ridiculous, they just give you more information. So you're

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Speaker 2: already back on your heels. You know, when someone accused

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Speaker 2: me of having twenty two bank accounts and you know,

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Speaker 2: nine cars. I'm like, I don't even know how to counter.

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Speaker 1: That because it's so implausible that like it's laughable. But

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Speaker 1: then what if it's not right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, like if someone accuses me of plagiarism, for example,

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Speaker 2: then I could defend myself against that. Whereas like this

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Speaker 2: was just like so entirely outside of my realm of

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Speaker 2: experience and understanding that I didn't really know where to start.

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Speaker 2: But I was very nervous. I also very much felt

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Speaker 2: that this was all some kind of misunderstanding, right.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine he kept saying that right to Calvin.

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Speaker 2: Yah when he just had to clear it up, Like,

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Speaker 2: what are the next steps? Let's just get through this.

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Speaker 2: Obviously this is absurd, and how do we clear this up?

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Speaker 1: What was Calvin's domeana? And did he sound like a

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Speaker 1: regular government official? Often with they scams and I've had

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Speaker 1: many scam calls myself the law and is very bad.

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Speaker 1: They speak in broken English. It doesn't sound in any

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Speaker 1: way professional. Sometimes you can tell they're reading from a script.

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Speaker 1: As a journalist, you've interviewed many, many, many many people

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Speaker 1: over your career. What was Calvin's vibe, For want of

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Speaker 1: a better word.

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Speaker 2: It was very authoritative. He spoke with a lot of confidence.

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Speaker 2: The line was clear, It did not sound, you know,

219
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Speaker 2: like he was calling from.

220
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Speaker 1: A call center.

221
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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And he had a vague accent, but his

222
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Speaker 2: English was otherwise perfect.

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Speaker 1: One of the most significant features of this was how

224
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Speaker 1: he managed to keep you on the phone. And you've

225
00:12:48,605 --> 00:12:52,965
Speaker 1: since discovered that in the psychological warfare, that this already

226
00:12:53,005 --> 00:12:55,925
Speaker 1: had become and would continue to be until you finally

227
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Speaker 1: got off the phone. How did he keep you on

228
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Speaker 1: the phone? How did he stop you from like hanging

229
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Speaker 1: up and saying can I call you back? Because there

230
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Speaker 1: were many points in which you were like, I'm suspicious,

231
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Speaker 1: and you even said it. What were those points and

232
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Speaker 1: how did he respond?

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Speaker 2: I told him that I a was busy and didn't

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Speaker 2: have time to keep talking to him, and also that

235
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Speaker 2: I had no proof that he was who he said

236
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Speaker 2: he was, and that I didn't believe him. The initial

237
00:13:24,925 --> 00:13:27,765
Speaker 2: phone call had come through Amazon, and it had shown

238
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Speaker 2: up on my caller ID as being from Amazon, and

239
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Speaker 2: he told me to go to the main FTC homepage

240
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Speaker 2: and look up the tip line number and then to

241
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Speaker 2: hang up and he would call me from that number.

242
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Speaker 1: Then he did that, so you felt that you'd independently

243
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Speaker 1: verified it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I still wasn't sure. I mean, I wasn't sure

245
00:13:49,885 --> 00:13:52,965
Speaker 2: about any of this, and I was still extremely skeptical

246
00:13:53,045 --> 00:13:55,925
Speaker 2: throughout the entire thing. You know, I said, well, couldn't

247
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Speaker 2: you have just spoofed this number? And he was like,

248
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Speaker 2: government numbers cannot be spoofed, and I, of course now

249
00:14:02,565 --> 00:14:05,845
Speaker 2: know that they can be. But he was so confident

250
00:14:06,165 --> 00:14:10,645
Speaker 2: and authoritative in everything he said. Usually whenever I did

251
00:14:10,685 --> 00:14:13,645
Speaker 2: stop and ask a question, he would just answer it

252
00:14:13,645 --> 00:14:16,245
Speaker 2: with great self assurance and then move.

253
00:14:16,045 --> 00:14:18,685
Speaker 1: On and hit you with more information.

254
00:14:18,765 --> 00:14:22,885
Speaker 2: Exactly, And sometimes he was just repeating the same things

255
00:14:22,885 --> 00:14:26,085
Speaker 2: that he was saying before. But I just sort of

256
00:14:26,085 --> 00:14:29,165
Speaker 2: couldn't get a word in edgewise, and I felt very

257
00:14:29,245 --> 00:14:31,885
Speaker 2: much that I was reacting to everything he was saying.

258
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Speaker 1: You texted your husband, didn't you? While you were on

259
00:14:34,685 --> 00:14:36,965
Speaker 1: the phone, yes, what did you say?

260
00:14:37,165 --> 00:14:40,485
Speaker 2: He called me several times, was texting me asking if

261
00:14:40,485 --> 00:14:42,925
Speaker 2: I was okay? What was going on? And at that

262
00:14:43,045 --> 00:14:46,045
Speaker 2: point Calvin told me that I could not tell anyone

263
00:14:46,165 --> 00:14:49,005
Speaker 2: what was happening, and that if I did talk to

264
00:14:49,005 --> 00:14:51,285
Speaker 2: my husband about what was happening, my husband would then

265
00:14:51,365 --> 00:14:54,685
Speaker 2: be implicated in the investigation. You know, at that point,

266
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Speaker 2: I'm sort of like, I'm like, well, if we're both

267
00:14:57,405 --> 00:15:00,765
Speaker 2: like arrested, Like who's going to put my kid to bed?

268
00:15:00,845 --> 00:15:02,805
Speaker 2: You know, like you kind of start like going through

269
00:15:02,845 --> 00:15:05,405
Speaker 2: all of these things where you're just like, but wait,

270
00:15:05,525 --> 00:15:07,325
Speaker 2: if this happens, then what happens?

271
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Speaker 1: And you're like, even if it would take a couple

272
00:15:09,605 --> 00:15:12,085
Speaker 1: of days to clear up, like how do you prove

273
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Speaker 1: that you haven't done something? And maybe yeah, and you

274
00:15:15,605 --> 00:15:18,405
Speaker 1: were very vulnerable because of your child and they knew that.

275
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that they found my weak point and

276
00:15:22,085 --> 00:15:26,085
Speaker 2: they pressed on it, and they realized that I responded

277
00:15:26,125 --> 00:15:30,405
Speaker 2: to that specific threat. And whenever I started kind of

278
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Speaker 2: backing up and being like I don't know about this,

279
00:15:33,045 --> 00:15:35,045
Speaker 2: or like this just doesn't sound right, or I'm going

280
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Speaker 2: to call a lawyer, or I'm going to talk to

281
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Speaker 2: the police.

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Speaker 1: About this, all of which you said yes.

283
00:15:40,045 --> 00:15:42,845
Speaker 2: Or is there like some kind of office that I

284
00:15:42,885 --> 00:15:45,045
Speaker 2: can go to where we can sort this out in person.

285
00:15:45,125 --> 00:15:48,285
Speaker 2: I'm very uncomfortable with doing this all over the phone.

286
00:15:48,405 --> 00:15:51,565
Speaker 2: They would say, we don't have time. That's not going

287
00:15:51,645 --> 00:15:54,445
Speaker 2: to work. We need to do this immediately. We have

288
00:15:54,525 --> 00:15:57,445
Speaker 2: to act quickly. You are in danger. Your son is

289
00:15:57,485 --> 00:16:02,765
Speaker 2: in danger. We do not have time to explore other options.

290
00:16:03,525 --> 00:16:07,365
Speaker 1: After the short break, the Scammers Book only exits, and

291
00:16:07,485 --> 00:16:11,165
Speaker 1: Charlotte finds herself deep into the most terrifying day of

292
00:16:11,205 --> 00:16:24,005
Speaker 1: her life. Charlotte, this must have been surreal because it's

293
00:16:24,045 --> 00:16:29,205
Speaker 1: still a regular day. You're in your own home alone,

294
00:16:29,205 --> 00:16:33,605
Speaker 1: your son's at kindy, everything around you looks normal, and

295
00:16:33,685 --> 00:16:37,645
Speaker 1: yet this thing is unfolding in your ear with this guy.

296
00:16:38,885 --> 00:16:41,645
Speaker 1: It must have felt like you'd just fallen into some

297
00:16:41,765 --> 00:16:44,445
Speaker 1: kind of weird vortex of hell.

298
00:16:45,085 --> 00:16:47,485
Speaker 2: That's exactly how it felt. It kind of felt like

299
00:16:48,085 --> 00:16:50,885
Speaker 2: I was just like walking along and suddenly like a

300
00:16:50,925 --> 00:16:55,525
Speaker 2: trapdoor opened and I fell through it. It was incredibly bizarre.

301
00:16:55,685 --> 00:16:59,725
Speaker 2: And my instinct, which I think would be anyone's instinct,

302
00:16:59,805 --> 00:17:01,965
Speaker 2: is just how do I get out of this? Like

303
00:17:02,005 --> 00:17:03,405
Speaker 2: what do I have to do to.

304
00:17:03,365 --> 00:17:06,645
Speaker 1: Make this stop and go away and just sort this out?

305
00:17:06,925 --> 00:17:10,645
Speaker 1: So as Calvin kept escalating it, as you wrote so beautifully,

306
00:17:10,645 --> 00:17:13,365
Speaker 1: there was nothing so far that you could see what

307
00:17:13,605 --> 00:17:16,565
Speaker 1: his angle was. Because he hadn't asked you to do anything.

308
00:17:17,045 --> 00:17:19,685
Speaker 1: He kept making it seem like he was saving you

309
00:17:20,685 --> 00:17:22,925
Speaker 1: and he just wanted to help you. Clear this up,

310
00:17:22,965 --> 00:17:25,965
Speaker 1: and he was the one that was standing between you

311
00:17:26,285 --> 00:17:28,605
Speaker 1: and all these bad people and bad things.

312
00:17:29,245 --> 00:17:32,965
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. What happened next was that he connected

313
00:17:33,005 --> 00:17:35,885
Speaker 2: me with another one of his colleagues, which I've now

314
00:17:35,965 --> 00:17:38,165
Speaker 2: learned is actually a very normal part of these more

315
00:17:38,205 --> 00:17:40,605
Speaker 2: intricate scams. They have a number of different people and

316
00:17:40,645 --> 00:17:43,325
Speaker 2: they kind of pass you in between them, which creates

317
00:17:43,445 --> 00:17:46,725
Speaker 2: this aura of like there being a group of people

318
00:17:46,765 --> 00:17:49,245
Speaker 2: who you're working with, so that it kind of adds

319
00:17:49,245 --> 00:17:52,765
Speaker 2: to their authority. So he passed me to one of

320
00:17:52,805 --> 00:17:55,245
Speaker 2: his colleagues who said that he worked for the CIA,

321
00:17:56,005 --> 00:18:01,525
Speaker 2: and the CIA investigates international crimes. They don't operate on

322
00:18:01,605 --> 00:18:04,565
Speaker 2: American soil, and so I was like, why is the

323
00:18:04,605 --> 00:18:07,045
Speaker 2: CIA working on this? And they're like, well, it's because

324
00:18:07,245 --> 00:18:10,805
Speaker 2: there's international money laundering and internet drug trafficking, and so

325
00:18:11,085 --> 00:18:16,485
Speaker 2: you're caught up in a CIA investigation. Again. It all

326
00:18:16,805 --> 00:18:19,525
Speaker 2: truly sounded crazy, and I knew how crazy it sounded.

327
00:18:19,605 --> 00:18:22,645
Speaker 2: It almost sounded so crazy that I was like, they

328
00:18:22,685 --> 00:18:25,685
Speaker 2: couldn't have made this up. It's like too wild to

329
00:18:25,925 --> 00:18:27,085
Speaker 2: just be a fabrication.

330
00:18:27,605 --> 00:18:30,325
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So it's almost like if that have said, hey,

331
00:18:30,365 --> 00:18:32,005
Speaker 1: there's been this mix up. Can you just give us

332
00:18:32,005 --> 00:18:33,725
Speaker 1: your bank details? You to be like, this is such

333
00:18:33,765 --> 00:18:36,245
Speaker 1: a scam. But because it was like it's the CIA,

334
00:18:36,365 --> 00:18:41,005
Speaker 1: it's money laundering, it's drug lords, suddenly it's like no

335
00:18:41,045 --> 00:18:44,365
Speaker 1: one would make this up. It's crazy, so it must

336
00:18:44,445 --> 00:18:45,805
Speaker 1: be real. I totally get that.

337
00:18:46,085 --> 00:18:49,165
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I don't entirely know if I ever

338
00:18:49,325 --> 00:18:55,525
Speaker 2: fully believed it, But I was so frightened that it

339
00:18:55,605 --> 00:18:58,325
Speaker 2: didn't feel like I could call their bluff, Like I

340
00:18:58,325 --> 00:19:01,445
Speaker 2: didn't know what else to do, you know, like if

341
00:19:01,525 --> 00:19:03,725
Speaker 2: I went to the police, they wouldn't have known what

342
00:19:03,765 --> 00:19:04,605
Speaker 2: to do either.

343
00:19:04,525 --> 00:19:06,405
Speaker 1: Right, because it felt so big.

344
00:19:06,685 --> 00:19:11,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also on how everyone's trigger treating and people

345
00:19:11,565 --> 00:19:14,365
Speaker 2: are coming in and out of your building, and I

346
00:19:14,405 --> 00:19:17,365
Speaker 2: live in a big apartment building, and I was just thinking, like,

347
00:19:18,085 --> 00:19:19,965
Speaker 2: there's just going to be hundreds of people walking in

348
00:19:20,005 --> 00:19:22,565
Speaker 2: and out of this apartment building all day and all

349
00:19:22,685 --> 00:19:27,205
Speaker 2: night tonight. There was just a profound feeling of not

350
00:19:27,405 --> 00:19:30,405
Speaker 2: being safe and wanting to do whatever I had to

351
00:19:30,445 --> 00:19:33,605
Speaker 2: do to keep my family safe.

352
00:19:33,845 --> 00:19:37,285
Speaker 1: The first time the idea of you withdrawing money from

353
00:19:37,285 --> 00:19:41,405
Speaker 1: your account came up, what was your immediate impression and

354
00:19:41,445 --> 00:19:43,405
Speaker 1: how long would you been on the phone by that time.

355
00:19:43,685 --> 00:19:46,405
Speaker 1: By that time, it had been several hours without a break,

356
00:19:46,445 --> 00:19:47,085
Speaker 1: without food.

357
00:19:47,565 --> 00:19:50,165
Speaker 2: Yeah. He told me that the next steps for the

358
00:19:50,165 --> 00:19:53,605
Speaker 2: investigation would be that they needed to freeze all of

359
00:19:53,645 --> 00:19:57,245
Speaker 2: my assets, everything under my name, so that they would

360
00:19:57,245 --> 00:20:00,365
Speaker 2: be able to catch the people who had stolen my identity,

361
00:20:01,485 --> 00:20:04,925
Speaker 2: and that they weren't sure how long that was going

362
00:20:04,965 --> 00:20:08,205
Speaker 2: to happen, how long all of my assets would be frozen,

363
00:20:09,405 --> 00:20:14,125
Speaker 2: that if I needed to be able to have money

364
00:20:14,245 --> 00:20:18,325
Speaker 2: to live, I should withdraw that in cash from my

365
00:20:18,445 --> 00:20:22,445
Speaker 2: accounts because I may not have access to it for months. Again,

366
00:20:22,965 --> 00:20:26,525
Speaker 2: it seemed weird, but there was a certain sort of

367
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:29,205
Speaker 2: logic to it that I was like, Okay, if you'd

368
00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:31,365
Speaker 2: freeze all of my accounts, then I guess I better

369
00:20:31,445 --> 00:20:32,605
Speaker 2: get some cash out.

370
00:20:32,925 --> 00:20:35,645
Speaker 1: Calvin asked you how much money you'd need to live

371
00:20:35,685 --> 00:20:38,325
Speaker 1: for a year if it took a long time to

372
00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:42,285
Speaker 1: go through the courts and the process, and you estimated

373
00:20:42,285 --> 00:20:45,685
Speaker 1: around fifty thousand dollars, and you had a savings account

374
00:20:45,965 --> 00:20:49,725
Speaker 1: that you'd squirreled money away in for emergencies, and over

375
00:20:49,845 --> 00:20:53,165
Speaker 1: years and years and years you'd saved this money. So

376
00:20:53,565 --> 00:20:56,125
Speaker 1: he said, you have to go and withdraw that, which

377
00:20:56,165 --> 00:20:59,085
Speaker 1: is how you found yourself at a bank with him

378
00:20:59,165 --> 00:21:03,405
Speaker 1: still in your pocket on the phone. What did the

379
00:21:03,645 --> 00:21:06,645
Speaker 1: bank teller do when you said, I want to withdraw

380
00:21:06,685 --> 00:21:08,205
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars in cash.

381
00:21:08,645 --> 00:21:11,765
Speaker 2: I was really surprised that they let me do it, Like,

382
00:21:11,845 --> 00:21:13,845
Speaker 2: I just wasn't sure if that was gonna fly.

383
00:21:14,325 --> 00:21:14,685
Speaker 1: Yeah.

384
00:21:14,765 --> 00:21:18,485
Speaker 2: I can't even think of when I've withdrawn more than

385
00:21:18,565 --> 00:21:21,725
Speaker 2: like a thousand dollars from the bank. And she kind

386
00:21:21,765 --> 00:21:23,605
Speaker 2: of raised her eyebrows and she looked surprised, but she

387
00:21:23,645 --> 00:21:26,325
Speaker 2: didn't ask me what it was for. She just went

388
00:21:26,525 --> 00:21:29,565
Speaker 2: into the back and got out like a big box

389
00:21:29,925 --> 00:21:32,125
Speaker 2: and counted out the money and she gave it to me.

390
00:21:32,685 --> 00:21:35,405
Speaker 2: She also gave me a sheet of paper that was

391
00:21:35,445 --> 00:21:39,485
Speaker 2: sort of like a watch out for Scams one page,

392
00:21:40,005 --> 00:21:42,165
Speaker 2: and I did look at it. I mean, it had

393
00:21:42,365 --> 00:21:45,645
Speaker 2: certainly not escaped me that this might be some kind

394
00:21:45,685 --> 00:21:49,205
Speaker 2: of elaborate thing. I was worried that maybe someone was

395
00:21:49,245 --> 00:21:50,885
Speaker 2: following me and was going to take the money from

396
00:21:50,885 --> 00:21:53,125
Speaker 2: me when I was walking home. I didn't know where

397
00:21:53,165 --> 00:21:55,805
Speaker 2: this was going, and I was very concerned.

398
00:21:56,165 --> 00:21:58,205
Speaker 1: How did Calvin convince you to keep him on the

399
00:21:58,205 --> 00:22:00,685
Speaker 1: line while you were doing all of that? What reason did.

400
00:22:00,645 --> 00:22:05,165
Speaker 2: He give He told me, And again it was bizarre,

401
00:22:05,245 --> 00:22:09,205
Speaker 2: but he told me that because I was being investigated,

402
00:22:09,645 --> 00:22:13,885
Speaker 2: there needed to be a continuous connection. I needed to

403
00:22:13,885 --> 00:22:17,445
Speaker 2: stay on the line with him in order for that

404
00:22:17,605 --> 00:22:21,565
Speaker 2: money to not be part of the investigation. I don't

405
00:22:21,565 --> 00:22:23,885
Speaker 2: even know if I'm like explaining this point.

406
00:22:23,885 --> 00:22:25,885
Speaker 1: So I understand. It's like he needs to almost be

407
00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:29,525
Speaker 1: a witness on the phone to everything that was happening.

408
00:22:29,765 --> 00:22:32,645
Speaker 1: I get it. And he still hadn't talked about you

409
00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:35,165
Speaker 1: needing to give the money to anyone at the stage.

410
00:22:35,605 --> 00:22:40,045
Speaker 2: No, No, it really wasn't until the final moment when

411
00:22:40,405 --> 00:22:44,765
Speaker 2: a man came to my house, which was terrifying that

412
00:22:44,845 --> 00:22:48,205
Speaker 2: he said, walk out to his car, put the money

413
00:22:48,205 --> 00:22:51,125
Speaker 2: in the backseat, don't say anything to him, and the

414
00:22:51,125 --> 00:22:53,845
Speaker 2: car drove away. He told me that it was being

415
00:22:54,565 --> 00:22:59,045
Speaker 2: brought to a safe house where it would be secured,

416
00:22:59,245 --> 00:23:04,205
Speaker 2: and then I would receive a Treasury check, and because

417
00:23:04,205 --> 00:23:07,445
Speaker 2: my identity had been so compromised, I would receive a

418
00:23:07,485 --> 00:23:10,885
Speaker 2: new Social Security number and have to sort of like

419
00:23:10,965 --> 00:23:14,845
Speaker 2: rebuild my whole identity, and that once I did that,

420
00:23:14,925 --> 00:23:17,525
Speaker 2: I could deposit the money into a new bank account

421
00:23:17,805 --> 00:23:19,405
Speaker 2: and go from there.

422
00:23:19,925 --> 00:23:21,565
Speaker 1: Over this period of time. How long had you been

423
00:23:21,645 --> 00:23:22,125
Speaker 1: on the phine.

424
00:23:22,605 --> 00:23:25,245
Speaker 2: We'd been on the phone for over five hours, probably

425
00:23:25,325 --> 00:23:26,045
Speaker 2: closer to six.

426
00:23:26,845 --> 00:23:30,125
Speaker 1: You went trickle trading with the phone still on and

427
00:23:30,165 --> 00:23:32,965
Speaker 1: in your pocket. Is this after you'd given the money

428
00:23:33,005 --> 00:23:37,005
Speaker 1: to the car and they're driven away? How did you

429
00:23:37,045 --> 00:23:40,005
Speaker 1: feel when you handed over the money? Did you feel

430
00:23:40,365 --> 00:23:43,565
Speaker 1: oh shit? Or did you feel relieved? How did you feel?

431
00:23:43,805 --> 00:23:48,245
Speaker 2: I felt pretty numb. I mostly was really nervous to

432
00:23:48,285 --> 00:23:51,085
Speaker 2: be out in the open like that. I felt very

433
00:23:51,125 --> 00:23:54,525
Speaker 2: exposed just to be out on the street meeting a

434
00:23:54,565 --> 00:23:58,605
Speaker 2: stranger with that amount of money, especially after he had

435
00:23:58,645 --> 00:24:01,725
Speaker 2: told me so many times that I was under surveillance.

436
00:24:02,365 --> 00:24:06,125
Speaker 2: So I was mostly just eager to get back inside. Really,

437
00:24:06,685 --> 00:24:09,725
Speaker 2: I was really terrified that the man was going to

438
00:24:09,725 --> 00:24:11,205
Speaker 2: get out of the car, or that he was going

439
00:24:11,205 --> 00:24:13,165
Speaker 2: to try to come inside with me and my son

440
00:24:13,245 --> 00:24:15,845
Speaker 2: was at home. I just wanted him to leave as

441
00:24:15,965 --> 00:24:19,565
Speaker 2: quickly as possible. I didn't know what he was going

442
00:24:19,605 --> 00:24:22,165
Speaker 2: to say or do, and I was mostly just at

443
00:24:22,165 --> 00:24:24,965
Speaker 2: that point just trying to get it over with any

444
00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,925
Speaker 2: sort of resolution was better.

445
00:24:27,485 --> 00:24:30,445
Speaker 1: Than being in that state of fear and penny. Yeah,

446
00:24:31,325 --> 00:24:34,885
Speaker 1: once you'd handed the money over, did Calvin's domain a

447
00:24:34,965 --> 00:24:35,925
Speaker 1: change on the phone.

448
00:24:36,405 --> 00:24:39,645
Speaker 2: Not really. No. He told me that he was going

449
00:24:39,685 --> 00:24:42,205
Speaker 2: to be in touch with next Steps. He sent me

450
00:24:42,325 --> 00:24:44,405
Speaker 2: a picture of the Treasury check and said that it

451
00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:47,725
Speaker 2: would be delivered to my home in the morning. And

452
00:24:47,765 --> 00:24:50,485
Speaker 2: he said that he was getting me an appointment with

453
00:24:50,845 --> 00:24:54,245
Speaker 2: the Social Security Office to go through everything and they

454
00:24:54,245 --> 00:24:58,085
Speaker 2: would help me get a new Social Security number in

455
00:24:58,085 --> 00:25:00,525
Speaker 2: the morning. And that was a big relief to me.

456
00:25:01,165 --> 00:25:03,965
Speaker 2: And he said that overnight my social Security number would

457
00:25:03,965 --> 00:25:06,205
Speaker 2: be deactivated and I would.

458
00:25:06,365 --> 00:25:08,845
Speaker 1: Essentially, like, you know, get a new identity.

459
00:25:09,045 --> 00:25:12,365
Speaker 2: Yeah. And at that point my husband knew that something

460
00:25:12,405 --> 00:25:14,805
Speaker 2: weird was going on, but I wouldn't tell him what

461
00:25:14,845 --> 00:25:15,165
Speaker 2: it was.

462
00:25:15,645 --> 00:25:18,965
Speaker 1: You had mentioned something about identity theft to him in

463
00:25:19,045 --> 00:25:22,165
Speaker 1: a text, which he then deleted because Calvin said, don't

464
00:25:22,205 --> 00:25:25,125
Speaker 1: involve him, don't tell anyone. That's called blocking the exits,

465
00:25:25,165 --> 00:25:25,525
Speaker 1: isn't it.

466
00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:29,445
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, it's a specific technique to make you really

467
00:25:29,445 --> 00:25:32,325
Speaker 2: feel like you have nowhere to turn. And that's also

468
00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:35,845
Speaker 2: because as soon as you get a gut check from

469
00:25:35,885 --> 00:25:40,365
Speaker 2: someone else, it breaks the spell. I've since interviewed a

470
00:25:40,485 --> 00:25:44,525
Speaker 2: number of people who study scams, and that is one

471
00:25:44,565 --> 00:25:48,365
Speaker 2: of the biggest factors in whether or not people actually

472
00:25:48,725 --> 00:25:52,205
Speaker 2: go through with losing money is if they are interrupted

473
00:25:52,245 --> 00:25:55,925
Speaker 2: by someone in their life, then even if they don't

474
00:25:55,965 --> 00:25:59,085
Speaker 2: tell that person what's going on, just having that sort

475
00:25:59,125 --> 00:26:02,005
Speaker 2: of like bringing you back to earth and pulling you

476
00:26:02,085 --> 00:26:06,485
Speaker 2: back into your own life, it can be incredibly effective.

477
00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:10,485
Speaker 1: After these break the moment the penny drop and Charlotte

478
00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:21,805
Speaker 1: realizes that she's been scanned and what she did next.

479
00:26:23,405 --> 00:26:27,045
Speaker 1: In a story with so many incredibly difficult moments in it,

480
00:26:27,165 --> 00:26:29,685
Speaker 1: or a day with so many difficult moments in it,

481
00:26:30,045 --> 00:26:33,245
Speaker 1: the most difficult must have been the realization that you'd

482
00:26:33,285 --> 00:26:38,645
Speaker 1: been scanned. Did it happen quickly or over time? Both.

483
00:26:39,805 --> 00:26:44,125
Speaker 2: There was a moment when the phone went dead and

484
00:26:44,165 --> 00:26:46,605
Speaker 2: I called back and they picked up, and I said,

485
00:26:46,845 --> 00:26:49,125
Speaker 2: you know, I lost the connection. I'm still waiting to

486
00:26:49,165 --> 00:26:52,525
Speaker 2: hear back for confirmation about the appointment with the Social

487
00:26:52,565 --> 00:26:57,045
Speaker 2: Security office, and the woman who answered, who said she

488
00:26:57,285 --> 00:27:00,125
Speaker 2: was sort of part of the team, so that they

489
00:27:00,165 --> 00:27:02,405
Speaker 2: hadn't been able to get one tonight, but that they

490
00:27:02,405 --> 00:27:04,525
Speaker 2: would call me in the morning, and that was the

491
00:27:04,565 --> 00:27:07,925
Speaker 2: first time that they had been inconsistent with their information.

492
00:27:08,245 --> 00:27:11,045
Speaker 2: They got sloppy at the end, and yeah, they had

493
00:27:11,085 --> 00:27:15,205
Speaker 2: no motivation to keep up. The first time I suddenly

494
00:27:15,525 --> 00:27:18,445
Speaker 2: realized it, you know, like the room went blurry and

495
00:27:18,485 --> 00:27:21,565
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god. Because the whole time

496
00:27:21,645 --> 00:27:25,325
Speaker 2: I was always pretty aware that there was a possibility

497
00:27:25,405 --> 00:27:29,405
Speaker 2: that maybe they were the identity thieves. Yeah, and that

498
00:27:29,485 --> 00:27:31,805
Speaker 2: this was sort of like part of the larger scheme

499
00:27:32,565 --> 00:27:35,725
Speaker 2: that had definitely occurred to me. It didn't occur to me,

500
00:27:35,845 --> 00:27:39,245
Speaker 2: I think, because I was so afraid of it being true.

501
00:27:39,605 --> 00:27:41,565
Speaker 2: It didn't occur to me that like the entire thing

502
00:27:41,565 --> 00:27:43,805
Speaker 2: had been made up, like starting with the Amazon stuff.

503
00:27:43,845 --> 00:27:46,085
Speaker 2: Like I think the first thing that I realized was

504
00:27:46,685 --> 00:27:49,645
Speaker 2: the money is gone. And the second thing I realized

505
00:27:50,285 --> 00:27:53,165
Speaker 2: was I still thought that my identity had been stolen

506
00:27:53,205 --> 00:27:56,445
Speaker 2: and compromise. It took a few hours for that part

507
00:27:56,485 --> 00:27:59,205
Speaker 2: to kind of fall away and be like, oh, actually,

508
00:27:59,925 --> 00:28:02,605
Speaker 2: so on the one hand, I've lost fifty thousand dollars,

509
00:28:02,645 --> 00:28:05,285
Speaker 2: but on the other hand, were much safer than I thought.

510
00:28:05,285 --> 00:28:10,165
Speaker 2: I was, well, yeah, we're not being surveiled, my identity

511
00:28:10,485 --> 00:28:13,845
Speaker 2: hasn't been stolen, So it was sort of this like

512
00:28:14,125 --> 00:28:16,365
Speaker 2: horrible swap.

513
00:28:17,885 --> 00:28:21,605
Speaker 1: It must have been very intense, all of those rushing

514
00:28:21,725 --> 00:28:25,405
Speaker 1: thoughts and untangling everything that had happened and through the day.

515
00:28:26,085 --> 00:28:27,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, who.

516
00:28:27,645 --> 00:28:28,925
Speaker 1: Was the first person you told?

517
00:28:29,445 --> 00:28:34,325
Speaker 2: My husband? Immediately, I was just sobbing, and I ran

518
00:28:34,405 --> 00:28:39,885
Speaker 2: out and told him, and he was really concerned. We

519
00:28:40,005 --> 00:28:42,565
Speaker 2: put my son to bed, and then my brother is

520
00:28:42,565 --> 00:28:48,765
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and so I called him and we conferenced

521
00:28:48,765 --> 00:28:51,205
Speaker 2: in my parents and I told them what had happened,

522
00:28:51,885 --> 00:28:54,805
Speaker 2: and they encouraged me to call the police. So I

523
00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:57,405
Speaker 2: called the police and they came right over and they

524
00:28:57,405 --> 00:28:59,805
Speaker 2: took a report. But they were like, you are so stupid.

525
00:29:00,485 --> 00:29:02,325
Speaker 1: Oh, that must have been awful.

526
00:29:02,925 --> 00:29:05,525
Speaker 2: I mean, it was also just so clear that they

527
00:29:05,565 --> 00:29:07,765
Speaker 2: were unequipped to do anything about it.

528
00:29:07,885 --> 00:29:08,085
Speaker 1: Yeah.

529
00:29:08,125 --> 00:29:10,325
Speaker 2: They sort of like had all this standard lines like

530
00:29:10,845 --> 00:29:13,285
Speaker 2: no government agent will ever ask you for money, and

531
00:29:13,325 --> 00:29:16,645
Speaker 2: I was like, well, they weren't really asking you.

532
00:29:16,725 --> 00:29:18,045
Speaker 1: Never felt like you had a choice.

533
00:29:18,365 --> 00:29:21,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And of course I know, I know that

534
00:29:21,965 --> 00:29:25,005
Speaker 2: government agencies do not ask you for money. I know that,

535
00:29:25,605 --> 00:29:30,845
Speaker 2: but under this particular circumstance, it felt different.

536
00:29:30,565 --> 00:29:33,165
Speaker 1: Because it was incremental because they weren't asking you for money.

537
00:29:33,205 --> 00:29:35,765
Speaker 1: At first, they were trying to protect you. They were

538
00:29:35,765 --> 00:29:39,725
Speaker 1: trying to protect your money. Right when you told people

539
00:29:39,965 --> 00:29:43,685
Speaker 1: the story and slowly you told friends and people close

540
00:29:43,725 --> 00:29:46,845
Speaker 1: to you, you say, most of them say the same thing.

541
00:29:46,885 --> 00:29:49,085
Speaker 1: You don't seem like the type of person this would

542
00:29:49,085 --> 00:29:51,765
Speaker 1: happen to. What do they mean by that?

543
00:29:52,325 --> 00:29:54,965
Speaker 2: So this is really interesting because this is when I

544
00:29:55,085 --> 00:29:59,965
Speaker 2: started finding out how incredibly prevalent these scams are. So

545
00:30:00,205 --> 00:30:02,685
Speaker 2: first of all, people are like, oh my god, you

546
00:30:02,725 --> 00:30:04,765
Speaker 2: really don't seem like the type of person this would

547
00:30:04,805 --> 00:30:07,885
Speaker 2: happen to. And what they mean is, I'm not old.

548
00:30:08,445 --> 00:30:11,805
Speaker 2: I know how to use the internet. I'm you know,

549
00:30:11,965 --> 00:30:15,925
Speaker 2: relatively savvy and can deploy critical thinking.

550
00:30:16,125 --> 00:30:20,885
Speaker 1: And you're ivyly educated. You write about personal finance, you're

551
00:30:20,885 --> 00:30:23,365
Speaker 1: a reporter, you're a journalist, so you've got a sort

552
00:30:23,405 --> 00:30:25,965
Speaker 1: of a skeptical, quizical mind.

553
00:30:26,485 --> 00:30:29,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people think that this is something that just

554
00:30:29,685 --> 00:30:33,885
Speaker 2: happens to Dottie Grandma's who don't know how to open

555
00:30:33,925 --> 00:30:38,085
Speaker 2: their email, you know. But the more that I did

556
00:30:38,125 --> 00:30:40,885
Speaker 2: talk about it, the more people were also like, Oh,

557
00:30:40,885 --> 00:30:43,245
Speaker 2: that happened to my sister, or that happened to me,

558
00:30:44,045 --> 00:30:48,005
Speaker 2: or that happened to a friend of mine who lost

559
00:30:48,405 --> 00:30:51,285
Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which was the case.

560
00:30:51,805 --> 00:30:55,165
Speaker 2: So that's when I started realizing that this was happening

561
00:30:55,605 --> 00:31:00,485
Speaker 2: all the time and to people who you really wouldn't expect.

562
00:31:00,845 --> 00:31:03,605
Speaker 2: And also the fact that there is this stigma that

563
00:31:03,685 --> 00:31:06,885
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen to young people who are well educated,

564
00:31:06,965 --> 00:31:09,325
Speaker 2: or it doesn't happen to people who are smart enough

565
00:31:09,565 --> 00:31:13,245
Speaker 2: to know better, actually makes people much more vulnerable because

566
00:31:13,725 --> 00:31:15,765
Speaker 2: they think that they're not going to be targeted, or

567
00:31:15,805 --> 00:31:17,445
Speaker 2: they think that if they are a target, they'll see

568
00:31:17,485 --> 00:31:19,965
Speaker 2: right through it and that they're not vulnerable. That really

569
00:31:20,005 --> 00:31:22,845
Speaker 2: started to make me think about writing about it.

570
00:31:23,005 --> 00:31:26,965
Speaker 1: Also, your brother, who's a lawyer, as you said, noted

571
00:31:27,045 --> 00:31:30,645
Speaker 1: that what you experience sounded a lot like a coerced confession.

572
00:31:31,565 --> 00:31:32,285
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

573
00:31:32,805 --> 00:31:36,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was really interesting to hear. And I wound

574
00:31:37,045 --> 00:31:41,805
Speaker 2: up reaching out to a man who studies coerst confessions.

575
00:31:41,885 --> 00:31:44,045
Speaker 2: He's an academic, he's written a book about them. His

576
00:31:44,165 --> 00:31:48,365
Speaker 2: name is Saul Cassen, and he at first was sort

577
00:31:48,405 --> 00:31:52,085
Speaker 2: of skeptical about the connection, and as soon as I

578
00:31:52,125 --> 00:31:54,725
Speaker 2: told him what had happened to me, he was like,

579
00:31:55,245 --> 00:31:59,205
Speaker 2: this is exactly the same. Even the amount of time

580
00:31:59,325 --> 00:32:01,765
Speaker 2: that I had been on the phone. He said that

581
00:32:02,165 --> 00:32:05,325
Speaker 2: coerst confessions or false confessions are much more likely to

582
00:32:05,405 --> 00:32:09,685
Speaker 2: happen when interrogations start to take longer than a couple

583
00:32:09,765 --> 00:32:10,525
Speaker 2: of hours.

584
00:32:10,925 --> 00:32:14,045
Speaker 1: So Cole's confession is when someone I assume confesses to

585
00:32:14,125 --> 00:32:17,925
Speaker 1: something they haven't done. You didn't confess to doing anything.

586
00:32:18,005 --> 00:32:18,965
Speaker 1: How is it the same?

587
00:32:19,365 --> 00:32:24,205
Speaker 2: So it's similar in that I complied with something that

588
00:32:24,285 --> 00:32:28,725
Speaker 2: I knew to be wrong and that made no sense

589
00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:33,245
Speaker 2: to me, and I followed directions that I knew were

590
00:32:33,365 --> 00:32:38,205
Speaker 2: ridiculous against my better judgment because I was just trying

591
00:32:38,605 --> 00:32:40,725
Speaker 2: to fix it. I was like, all of this can

592
00:32:40,885 --> 00:32:43,325
Speaker 2: surely be sorted out. If we just get to the

593
00:32:43,445 --> 00:32:46,845
Speaker 2: end of this, then like, yeah, it would be fine. Right.

594
00:32:47,325 --> 00:32:50,965
Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why innocent people often wave.

595
00:32:51,125 --> 00:32:53,005
Speaker 2: In the US, we have something called Miranda rights. It's

596
00:32:53,045 --> 00:32:55,445
Speaker 2: your right to an attorney. It's one of the reasons

597
00:32:55,485 --> 00:32:59,125
Speaker 2: why a lot of innocent people wave their Miranda rights

598
00:32:59,285 --> 00:33:01,205
Speaker 2: because they're like, well, I'm innocent, so I don't need

599
00:33:01,245 --> 00:33:04,085
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and so everything's going to be fine. So

600
00:33:04,725 --> 00:33:09,005
Speaker 2: you actually put yourself in a more vulnerable position when

601
00:33:09,565 --> 00:33:14,365
Speaker 2: you're innocent, because you assume that everything's going to work

602
00:33:14,405 --> 00:33:15,725
Speaker 2: out and it's going to be okay, and this will

603
00:33:15,725 --> 00:33:19,125
Speaker 2: all get sorted out and you've to and go along

604
00:33:19,125 --> 00:33:22,245
Speaker 2: with what people want, then everything will work out.

605
00:33:22,405 --> 00:33:25,005
Speaker 1: I want to unpack what they did, how they actually

606
00:33:25,165 --> 00:33:28,565
Speaker 1: executed this psychological warfare, which is what it was. What

607
00:33:28,685 --> 00:33:31,845
Speaker 1: have you learnt about what they did and how long

608
00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:32,925
Speaker 1: it was planned for.

609
00:33:33,525 --> 00:33:36,965
Speaker 2: So I've since read a bunch of books. I've talked

610
00:33:37,005 --> 00:33:39,285
Speaker 2: to a lot of people who have been scammed. There's

611
00:33:39,325 --> 00:33:43,605
Speaker 2: sort of a playbook that they followed, and there's even

612
00:33:43,765 --> 00:33:47,725
Speaker 2: an actual book that I recommend that everyone read. It's

613
00:33:47,765 --> 00:33:52,605
Speaker 2: called Influence by Robert Chaldini. He wrote it over twenty

614
00:33:52,685 --> 00:33:56,565
Speaker 2: years ago, and it's fascinating. It's basically about the psychology

615
00:33:56,805 --> 00:34:01,925
Speaker 2: of influencing somebody or deployed in the wrong way, coercing

616
00:34:01,965 --> 00:34:04,085
Speaker 2: someone into doing something that you want them to do.

617
00:34:04,525 --> 00:34:09,125
Speaker 2: So they're known as Chaldini's seven principles of influence, and

618
00:34:09,525 --> 00:34:14,125
Speaker 2: they are reciprocity, so basically like I'm helping you, so

619
00:34:14,285 --> 00:34:19,485
Speaker 2: you feel like you owe somebody something. Commitment or consistency,

620
00:34:19,645 --> 00:34:22,165
Speaker 2: So the people on the phone with me were very

621
00:34:22,165 --> 00:34:26,845
Speaker 2: committed to quote helping me and very consistent in their stories.

622
00:34:27,485 --> 00:34:31,485
Speaker 2: Consensus or social proof, which is like when you see

623
00:34:31,565 --> 00:34:34,645
Speaker 2: other people doing something, you're like well, I guess that's

624
00:34:34,645 --> 00:34:37,485
Speaker 2: what I'm supposed to do. Research shows that people are

625
00:34:37,525 --> 00:34:41,325
Speaker 2: more likely to follow social cues when they are in

626
00:34:41,365 --> 00:34:45,925
Speaker 2: a situation that they're unsure about. So if I'm very

627
00:34:45,925 --> 00:34:47,725
Speaker 2: confident in a situation and I see a bunch of

628
00:34:47,725 --> 00:34:50,645
Speaker 2: people doing something else, I'm like, well, I already know

629
00:34:50,645 --> 00:34:52,045
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, so I'm not going to do that.

630
00:34:52,485 --> 00:34:54,565
Speaker 2: But if you're really out to see and you see

631
00:34:54,565 --> 00:34:57,125
Speaker 2: a bunch of people acting in a certain way, or

632
00:34:57,205 --> 00:35:00,445
Speaker 2: you have someone with great authority telling you to do something,

633
00:35:00,605 --> 00:35:02,285
Speaker 2: then you're much more likely to follow along.

634
00:35:02,405 --> 00:35:04,165
Speaker 1: I guess since I have someone on the back foot

635
00:35:04,205 --> 00:35:07,005
Speaker 1: and they're much more easily persuaded exactly.

636
00:35:07,405 --> 00:35:13,565
Speaker 2: The fourth one is authority, and that's very authoritative. The

637
00:35:13,605 --> 00:35:17,725
Speaker 2: fifth one is liking, so being nice, and he kept

638
00:35:17,965 --> 00:35:22,885
Speaker 2: sort of alternating between being quite threatening and then also

639
00:35:23,165 --> 00:35:25,565
Speaker 2: having these moments of kindness, like asking me about my

640
00:35:25,645 --> 00:35:28,885
Speaker 2: kid and my family and my work and trying to

641
00:35:28,925 --> 00:35:30,725
Speaker 2: emphasize the fact that he was trying to help me.

642
00:35:31,405 --> 00:35:35,925
Speaker 2: The sixth one is scarcity, which is in this case,

643
00:35:36,085 --> 00:35:38,645
Speaker 2: there was the time scarcity. He was giving me an

644
00:35:38,645 --> 00:35:41,645
Speaker 2: exploding offer, like he could help me, but we had

645
00:35:41,645 --> 00:35:44,685
Speaker 2: to move really quickly, and time was short, and I

646
00:35:44,685 --> 00:35:49,085
Speaker 2: couldn't to anyone else because you know, we had to

647
00:35:49,165 --> 00:35:52,085
Speaker 2: keep the scope very new. And the last one is unity,

648
00:35:52,205 --> 00:35:55,445
Speaker 2: which is the sort of element of like we're working together,

649
00:35:55,605 --> 00:35:56,405
Speaker 2: we have your back.

650
00:35:56,765 --> 00:35:58,845
Speaker 1: How did they get the information in the first place?

651
00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:03,045
Speaker 2: That is another really good question. I have since learned

652
00:36:03,445 --> 00:36:06,685
Speaker 2: that we all, I think know in the abstract that

653
00:36:06,765 --> 00:36:09,765
Speaker 2: our personal information is out there, Like if you are

654
00:36:09,925 --> 00:36:13,725
Speaker 2: a person online, your data is sort of like floating around.

655
00:36:14,245 --> 00:36:17,365
Speaker 2: I think like most people, I've always assumed that that's

656
00:36:17,525 --> 00:36:20,285
Speaker 2: just sort of the cost of like being online. I'm

657
00:36:20,325 --> 00:36:24,325
Speaker 2: not doing anything bad, so I figured who cares? And

658
00:36:24,445 --> 00:36:29,125
Speaker 2: also like I'm not interesting enough for anyone to single

659
00:36:29,205 --> 00:36:32,245
Speaker 2: me out as when target right.

660
00:36:32,325 --> 00:36:34,125
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like when some people go, oh, but the

661
00:36:34,125 --> 00:36:36,325
Speaker 1: government if you put aland the government's going to survail you,

662
00:36:36,365 --> 00:36:38,165
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, it'll be pretty boring for the

663
00:36:38,205 --> 00:36:40,205
Speaker 1: government because I go to work and I go home.

664
00:36:40,965 --> 00:36:43,845
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I don't really know what's in it for them. Yeah,

665
00:36:44,125 --> 00:36:47,045
Speaker 2: to you know, not even the government, but just like

666
00:36:47,245 --> 00:36:51,805
Speaker 2: anyone anyone like go after me and like living my

667
00:36:52,245 --> 00:36:55,165
Speaker 2: mom life with my husband and kat.

668
00:36:55,125 --> 00:36:57,525
Speaker 1: Yeah, you wouldn't see yourself as a target because like

669
00:36:58,245 --> 00:37:02,125
Speaker 1: you're not ail On Musk or Jeff Bezoso, right right,

670
00:37:02,245 --> 00:37:05,005
Speaker 1: Avanka Trump kind of vibes yeah.

671
00:37:04,605 --> 00:37:07,125
Speaker 2: Right, Like I'm not someone who has that kind of

672
00:37:07,765 --> 00:37:09,525
Speaker 2: like exciting profile.

673
00:37:09,525 --> 00:37:10,845
Speaker 1: So why did they choose you?

674
00:37:11,445 --> 00:37:14,445
Speaker 2: I interviewed someone at Finra, which is basically like a

675
00:37:14,565 --> 00:37:18,125
Speaker 2: sort of consumer watchdog. They work with the government on

676
00:37:18,445 --> 00:37:21,085
Speaker 2: protecting consumers and they do a lot of work around

677
00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:27,125
Speaker 2: scams their nonprofit. And I interviewed someone there who investigates

678
00:37:27,165 --> 00:37:30,645
Speaker 2: scams and studies them, and she said that what usually

679
00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:34,885
Speaker 2: happens is every time there's a data breach, and you know,

680
00:37:34,965 --> 00:37:37,165
Speaker 2: I get letters like every week and it's like the

681
00:37:37,285 --> 00:37:40,365
Speaker 2: Vets Office had a data breach or you know, the

682
00:37:40,685 --> 00:37:44,285
Speaker 2: whatever random hospital that I went to one time to

683
00:37:44,285 --> 00:37:47,205
Speaker 2: get like my toe x ray had a data beaty.

684
00:37:47,245 --> 00:37:49,445
Speaker 2: You know, like like it happens all the time, and

685
00:37:49,485 --> 00:37:51,445
Speaker 2: I always kind of figure like, well, there's nothing I

686
00:37:51,485 --> 00:37:54,365
Speaker 2: can really do about it, and who cares. Someone has

687
00:37:54,405 --> 00:37:55,325
Speaker 2: my phone number.

688
00:37:55,165 --> 00:38:00,285
Speaker 1: Yeah, someone has the x ray of my foot. Good luckily, right, yeah, yeah, right.

689
00:38:00,725 --> 00:38:03,805
Speaker 2: But what happens is every time there's a data breach,

690
00:38:04,205 --> 00:38:06,205
Speaker 2: you know, they sort of comb through it and that

691
00:38:06,325 --> 00:38:10,725
Speaker 2: data gets scraped and sordid and repackaged and sort of

692
00:38:10,845 --> 00:38:14,805
Speaker 2: bundled and sold exactly when there is a big enough bundle,

693
00:38:15,285 --> 00:38:19,485
Speaker 2: it gets sold, and so essentially like it's kind of

694
00:38:19,525 --> 00:38:21,485
Speaker 2: when your numbers up. I don't think that I was

695
00:38:21,485 --> 00:38:24,325
Speaker 2: specifically targeted because people were like, oh, she must have

696
00:38:24,405 --> 00:38:26,405
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars. I think it was just that they

697
00:38:26,485 --> 00:38:30,965
Speaker 2: had enough information about me that they felt pretty confident

698
00:38:31,165 --> 00:38:32,685
Speaker 2: that they could make a go of it.

699
00:38:33,085 --> 00:38:35,485
Speaker 1: How long do you think they prepared and where do

700
00:38:35,565 --> 00:38:36,885
Speaker 1: you imagine they even were?

701
00:38:37,525 --> 00:38:41,125
Speaker 2: They were almost certainly overseas.

702
00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:44,085
Speaker 1: Have you found out which countries these things happening and

703
00:38:44,085 --> 00:38:44,685
Speaker 1: how they work?

704
00:38:45,045 --> 00:38:48,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really devastating. A lot of the people who

705
00:38:48,285 --> 00:38:54,165
Speaker 2: conduct these scams are actually trafficked. They're victims themselves. So

706
00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:59,805
Speaker 2: I don't think that these people were even necessarily like

707
00:38:59,965 --> 00:39:03,445
Speaker 2: malicious psychopaths who were trying to torture.

708
00:39:03,085 --> 00:39:05,645
Speaker 1: Me, like Calvin and the other people that you spoke

709
00:39:05,685 --> 00:39:06,605
Speaker 1: to on the find that day.

710
00:39:06,765 --> 00:39:10,245
Speaker 2: They may very well have been truly desperate.

711
00:39:11,325 --> 00:39:14,165
Speaker 1: When you say trafficked, like in what kind of situations?

712
00:39:14,565 --> 00:39:17,045
Speaker 1: Because these are seemingly well educated people that can think

713
00:39:17,125 --> 00:39:19,765
Speaker 1: quickly on their fate, you know, the English is outstanding.

714
00:39:20,525 --> 00:39:24,085
Speaker 1: They can work and you know, spontaneously improvised. That takes

715
00:39:24,085 --> 00:39:25,845
Speaker 1: a lot of skill. And when you think of people

716
00:39:25,845 --> 00:39:27,645
Speaker 1: that are trafficked to usually think of people that are

717
00:39:27,645 --> 00:39:30,045
Speaker 1: really disadvantaged, not educated.

718
00:39:30,525 --> 00:39:33,445
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of times what happens is there's actually

719
00:39:33,485 --> 00:39:35,645
Speaker 2: a big report on this in the Wall Street Journal

720
00:39:35,725 --> 00:39:37,965
Speaker 2: that just came out. A lot of times what happens

721
00:39:38,005 --> 00:39:41,325
Speaker 2: is these are people who are well educated and they

722
00:39:41,405 --> 00:39:45,445
Speaker 2: respond to fake job listings that say, you know, like

723
00:39:45,525 --> 00:39:48,485
Speaker 2: here's this great job, you get interviewed for it, and

724
00:39:48,525 --> 00:39:51,885
Speaker 2: then you get the job, and here is where you'll

725
00:39:51,925 --> 00:39:56,125
Speaker 2: be picked up to go to the call center or whatever,

726
00:39:56,245 --> 00:39:58,725
Speaker 2: like the campus of this company where you're going to

727
00:39:58,765 --> 00:40:01,605
Speaker 2: be worked. And then they get whisked off instead to

728
00:40:02,485 --> 00:40:06,605
Speaker 2: these sort of camps essentially where they are forced to

729
00:40:06,645 --> 00:40:08,805
Speaker 2: work and force to meet these phone calls.

730
00:40:09,445 --> 00:40:11,285
Speaker 1: Countries does this happen, It.

731
00:40:11,245 --> 00:40:16,565
Speaker 2: Happens a lot in Southeast Asia. It's heartbreaking and really awful.

732
00:40:17,005 --> 00:40:19,005
Speaker 1: Is it your understanding that Calvin and the people that

733
00:40:19,045 --> 00:40:20,445
Speaker 1: you spoke to on that day, of which there were

734
00:40:20,445 --> 00:40:23,325
Speaker 1: probably about four or five people, do you believe that

735
00:40:23,365 --> 00:40:25,685
Speaker 1: they were actually physically in the same space.

736
00:40:26,565 --> 00:40:30,605
Speaker 2: I really don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

737
00:40:30,765 --> 00:40:33,645
Speaker 2: I mean I was never like on hold for any

738
00:40:33,765 --> 00:40:36,965
Speaker 2: period of time. Like I was transferred very quickly. It

739
00:40:37,045 --> 00:40:38,925
Speaker 2: was very sophisticated, and.

740
00:40:38,845 --> 00:40:40,485
Speaker 1: I didn't get the money presumably.

741
00:40:40,965 --> 00:40:44,405
Speaker 2: Well another thing, because I was curious about that, I

742
00:40:44,445 --> 00:40:46,045
Speaker 2: was like, how did they how did they get this

743
00:40:46,085 --> 00:40:48,645
Speaker 2: guy to my apartment? Like how did this even work?

744
00:40:48,965 --> 00:40:52,685
Speaker 2: The woman from FINRA told me that often in these situations,

745
00:40:52,725 --> 00:40:54,445
Speaker 2: first of all, it is unusual for there to be

746
00:40:54,485 --> 00:40:58,525
Speaker 2: a physical money pickup. That was a pretty unusual scenario,

747
00:40:59,085 --> 00:41:03,325
Speaker 2: but in this case it really fit. I mean, it

748
00:41:03,365 --> 00:41:05,205
Speaker 2: was just very effective. Like I think if they told

749
00:41:05,205 --> 00:41:08,125
Speaker 2: me to wire money anywhere, I would have hung up right.

750
00:41:08,285 --> 00:41:08,525
Speaker 1: Yeah.

751
00:41:08,525 --> 00:41:11,765
Speaker 2: But the fact that I was feeling so vulnerable because

752
00:41:12,365 --> 00:41:15,805
Speaker 2: my family was inside, just the physical presence was so

753
00:41:15,965 --> 00:41:17,885
Speaker 2: terrifying that I mean I would have done anything. I

754
00:41:17,885 --> 00:41:20,165
Speaker 2: would have been like, do you also want my passport?

755
00:41:20,285 --> 00:41:22,445
Speaker 1: Here you go? Like I just make it stop?

756
00:41:22,685 --> 00:41:23,125
Speaker 2: Yeah?

757
00:41:23,205 --> 00:41:24,405
Speaker 1: Who is driving that car?

758
00:41:24,845 --> 00:41:27,925
Speaker 2: So it could have either been just a courier that

759
00:41:28,005 --> 00:41:30,885
Speaker 2: they sent who thought he was just picking something up,

760
00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:34,285
Speaker 2: or it also could have been what's called a money mule,

761
00:41:34,525 --> 00:41:38,005
Speaker 2: which means that it's someone else who was caught up,

762
00:41:38,005 --> 00:41:40,085
Speaker 2: who's also a victim, who was caught up in some

763
00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:43,605
Speaker 2: sort of scammer being blackmailed in some way themselves by

764
00:41:43,605 --> 00:41:45,085
Speaker 2: the same organization.

765
00:41:45,565 --> 00:41:48,165
Speaker 1: Who's running this stuff? Who's the big boss?

766
00:41:48,565 --> 00:41:51,645
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone knows. I certainly don't know. I

767
00:41:51,685 --> 00:41:55,325
Speaker 2: wish I did, But they seem sort of like Medusa,

768
00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:58,925
Speaker 2: like they shut down one and another one grows up

769
00:41:58,965 --> 00:41:59,885
Speaker 2: in its place.

770
00:42:00,005 --> 00:42:01,725
Speaker 1: You know. I just finally I wanted to ask you

771
00:42:01,805 --> 00:42:04,965
Speaker 1: about how you've feign It's been nearly a year since then,

772
00:42:05,285 --> 00:42:09,645
Speaker 1: since it happened. Two things. Firstly, why did you decide

773
00:42:09,685 --> 00:42:12,365
Speaker 1: to write about it, because that is a big deal,

774
00:42:12,965 --> 00:42:17,805
Speaker 1: like the shame, I imagine would have been huge and potentially

775
00:42:17,845 --> 00:42:21,485
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that you've been grappling with. How have

776
00:42:21,565 --> 00:42:26,005
Speaker 1: you metabolized that? And what's happened since you've decided to

777
00:42:26,005 --> 00:42:28,685
Speaker 1: publish that story which went viral internationally.

778
00:42:29,325 --> 00:42:33,565
Speaker 2: I was pretty shocked by how viral it went. I

779
00:42:33,605 --> 00:42:36,725
Speaker 2: don't think anyone can fully anticipate.

780
00:42:36,325 --> 00:42:38,605
Speaker 1: Because that's the whole thing in itself, the experience of

781
00:42:38,645 --> 00:42:39,325
Speaker 1: going viral.

782
00:42:39,565 --> 00:42:42,445
Speaker 2: It really is, especially like I've written a lot of stories,

783
00:42:42,485 --> 00:42:46,205
Speaker 2: some of which have gone pretty viral, but nothing that

784
00:42:46,325 --> 00:42:51,645
Speaker 2: was ever personal and very vulnerable like that story was.

785
00:42:51,765 --> 00:42:54,125
Speaker 2: So that was, I mean totally terrifying.

786
00:42:54,445 --> 00:42:56,805
Speaker 1: Were you worried that people would think that you is stupid?

787
00:42:57,325 --> 00:43:00,965
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and I know that many people do, but

788
00:43:01,685 --> 00:43:04,525
Speaker 2: I mean there's nothing I can really do about that

789
00:43:05,045 --> 00:43:07,485
Speaker 2: besides just keep doing what I'm doing.

790
00:43:07,965 --> 00:43:11,845
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the whole experience now? Almost

791
00:43:11,885 --> 00:43:12,565
Speaker 1: A ye, Laida.

792
00:43:13,325 --> 00:43:15,405
Speaker 2: First of all, one of the reasons that I really

793
00:43:15,525 --> 00:43:19,365
Speaker 2: wanted to write the story was that I also read

794
00:43:20,165 --> 00:43:25,165
Speaker 2: studies that showed that the psychological aftermath of being scammed

795
00:43:25,965 --> 00:43:28,765
Speaker 2: is devastating. I mean, it's devastating to lose any amount

796
00:43:28,805 --> 00:43:32,485
Speaker 2: of money, but especially for many people, especially things like

797
00:43:32,565 --> 00:43:35,125
Speaker 2: you hear with these they're called pig butchering scams, but

798
00:43:35,285 --> 00:43:37,725
Speaker 2: just like they take place over months or even years,

799
00:43:37,925 --> 00:43:40,765
Speaker 2: they happen a lot with romance scams just creates this

800
00:43:40,845 --> 00:43:45,645
Speaker 2: like incredibly trusting relationship and just like takes everything that

801
00:43:45,725 --> 00:43:50,805
Speaker 2: a person has. That's financially devastating, but psychologically, I mean,

802
00:43:51,005 --> 00:43:56,325
Speaker 2: people never recover, and even people who lose much less

803
00:43:56,325 --> 00:43:58,805
Speaker 2: money than I did and much less money than other

804
00:43:58,845 --> 00:44:03,245
Speaker 2: people do the sense of vulnerability and it's such a

805
00:44:03,325 --> 00:44:08,605
Speaker 2: violating experience that a lot of people have real anxiety depression,

806
00:44:09,525 --> 00:44:14,565
Speaker 2: like paranoia afterwards, and they feel really ashamed and really isolated.

807
00:44:14,725 --> 00:44:18,605
Speaker 2: And scams are wildly underreported as a result, and a

808
00:44:18,645 --> 00:44:21,365
Speaker 2: lot of people just feel like there's something wrong with them,

809
00:44:21,525 --> 00:44:25,845
Speaker 2: like they must have done something wrong, and they pathologize

810
00:44:25,845 --> 00:44:26,445
Speaker 2: it is that.

811
00:44:26,405 --> 00:44:27,525
Speaker 1: What you did well?

812
00:44:28,005 --> 00:44:32,405
Speaker 2: Luckily, because I'm a journalist, my instinct is to research

813
00:44:32,445 --> 00:44:35,405
Speaker 2: things when I'm trying to understand why they happen. And

814
00:44:35,445 --> 00:44:37,405
Speaker 2: so as soon as I started researching, and as soon

815
00:44:37,405 --> 00:44:39,925
Speaker 2: as I started talking to people, and people just came

816
00:44:39,965 --> 00:44:42,565
Speaker 2: out of the woodwork telling me that the same thing

817
00:44:42,565 --> 00:44:46,605
Speaker 2: had happened to them, I was maybe uniquely vulnerable to

818
00:44:46,645 --> 00:44:50,845
Speaker 2: this scam. I didn't tell the story because I believe

819
00:44:50,885 --> 00:44:53,525
Speaker 2: that what happened to me could happen to anyone. But

820
00:44:53,565 --> 00:44:55,965
Speaker 2: I do think that there is a scam out there

821
00:44:56,685 --> 00:45:02,005
Speaker 2: for everyone, and it's not a matter of you being

822
00:45:02,045 --> 00:45:05,165
Speaker 2: so smart that you can out with them and stay

823
00:45:05,205 --> 00:45:08,005
Speaker 2: ahead of this. It really is kind of a matter

824
00:45:08,085 --> 00:45:13,965
Speaker 2: of luck and a matter of hopefully being prepared so

825
00:45:14,005 --> 00:45:16,485
Speaker 2: that you can maybe avoid it.

826
00:45:17,045 --> 00:45:19,165
Speaker 1: You had some people reach out to you and say

827
00:45:19,165 --> 00:45:22,525
Speaker 1: that they were in the middle of being scammed when

828
00:45:22,565 --> 00:45:25,925
Speaker 1: they read your story and what was it about your

829
00:45:26,045 --> 00:45:28,965
Speaker 1: story that made them realize, Oh, my god, that's me.

830
00:45:29,565 --> 00:45:32,285
Speaker 2: There was a study that came out about people who

831
00:45:32,325 --> 00:45:35,005
Speaker 2: had been targeted by scammers, and it looked at what

832
00:45:35,085 --> 00:45:39,205
Speaker 2: was the difference between people who lost money and who didn't,

833
00:45:39,245 --> 00:45:41,405
Speaker 2: who somehow managed to figure out what was going on

834
00:45:41,485 --> 00:45:45,285
Speaker 2: and disengage. And they found that the people who managed

835
00:45:45,285 --> 00:45:49,085
Speaker 2: to disengage, the difference wasn't age, wasn't like they were

836
00:45:49,125 --> 00:45:52,565
Speaker 2: younger or savvier, or more well educated, or had a

837
00:45:52,645 --> 00:45:57,805
Speaker 2: higher socioeconomic status. It was actually just that they had

838
00:45:57,925 --> 00:46:03,085
Speaker 2: heard of a similar scam happening to someone else. People

839
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:05,245
Speaker 2: think that there are all of these protective things that

840
00:46:05,285 --> 00:46:08,165
Speaker 2: they can put in place, but actually the best thing

841
00:46:08,205 --> 00:46:12,285
Speaker 2: that you can do is reduced the stigma around scams

842
00:46:12,325 --> 00:46:13,845
Speaker 2: so that people talk about them more.

843
00:46:14,565 --> 00:46:18,045
Speaker 1: That's incredible. So when you think about, like, I hope

844
00:46:18,045 --> 00:46:20,725
Speaker 1: that the story that you tell yourself about this now

845
00:46:20,965 --> 00:46:25,205
Speaker 1: and your role in it is this happened to you,

846
00:46:25,645 --> 00:46:29,725
Speaker 1: And by being generous enough to share your story, you

847
00:46:29,965 --> 00:46:33,445
Speaker 1: have saved tens of thousands of people, no doubt, because

848
00:46:33,445 --> 00:46:35,085
Speaker 1: your story has been read by tens of millions of

849
00:46:35,125 --> 00:46:38,685
Speaker 1: people around the world. You've probably saved tens of thousands

850
00:46:38,765 --> 00:46:42,845
Speaker 1: of people from being scammed. That's a pretty phenomenal legacy.

851
00:46:42,925 --> 00:46:46,325
Speaker 2: It is very gratifying. I get emails every day from

852
00:46:46,365 --> 00:46:49,125
Speaker 2: people who say that they were targeted and because they

853
00:46:49,125 --> 00:46:52,125
Speaker 2: had read the story, they hang up. I also get

854
00:46:52,165 --> 00:46:56,005
Speaker 2: emails almost every day from people who were scammed and

855
00:46:56,165 --> 00:47:00,045
Speaker 2: have never told anyone and live with this incredible wheat

856
00:47:00,325 --> 00:47:03,565
Speaker 2: and guilt and shame, and reading the story made them

857
00:47:04,045 --> 00:47:07,845
Speaker 2: seek help and seek support or helped their spouse understand

858
00:47:07,885 --> 00:47:11,405
Speaker 2: what happened to them, and that's also very gratifying. It's

859
00:47:11,445 --> 00:47:14,205
Speaker 2: really humbling. I mean, it was still one of the

860
00:47:14,245 --> 00:47:16,845
Speaker 2: worst days of my life, and I don't wish it

861
00:47:16,925 --> 00:47:20,325
Speaker 2: upon anyone. And this is, you know, this sort of

862
00:47:20,685 --> 00:47:23,845
Speaker 2: small thing that I can do to try to fight back.

863
00:47:24,205 --> 00:47:26,525
Speaker 2: It's weird when you write something like this and it

864
00:47:26,525 --> 00:47:29,685
Speaker 2: becomes much bigger than you. So there's an element of

865
00:47:29,725 --> 00:47:32,925
Speaker 2: it where I am also just very eager to move

866
00:47:32,965 --> 00:47:33,805
Speaker 2: on at this point.

867
00:47:34,125 --> 00:47:36,845
Speaker 1: I am sure you are. I look forward to you

868
00:47:36,885 --> 00:47:39,165
Speaker 1: being able to close the chapter and move on, and

869
00:47:39,205 --> 00:47:42,205
Speaker 1: I'm just so grateful that you agreed to take the

870
00:47:42,245 --> 00:47:45,085
Speaker 1: time to talk to me before you did close that

871
00:47:45,205 --> 00:47:50,165
Speaker 1: chapter and move on. Charlotte, Thank you phenomenal, Thank you

872
00:47:50,245 --> 00:47:55,805
Speaker 1: so much. The thing about this story and why you

873
00:47:55,925 --> 00:47:58,765
Speaker 1: need to hear it, is that Charlotte does not fit

874
00:47:58,805 --> 00:48:02,365
Speaker 1: the profile of someone we think of when it comes

875
00:48:02,525 --> 00:48:05,925
Speaker 1: to scams. As she said, you think of an old person,

876
00:48:06,045 --> 00:48:12,085
Speaker 1: your grandfather, your mom, maybe someone who's not hugely Internet savvy,

877
00:48:12,805 --> 00:48:16,285
Speaker 1: someone who might live alone, someone who might be easily

878
00:48:16,325 --> 00:48:20,885
Speaker 1: confused or gullible. But as you heard, this was no

879
00:48:21,045 --> 00:48:24,685
Speaker 1: ordinary scam. It was all that psychological warfare, because that's

880
00:48:24,685 --> 00:48:28,205
Speaker 1: what scammers do. And there's so much victim blaming and

881
00:48:28,245 --> 00:48:30,605
Speaker 1: shaming when it comes to these kind of crimes, because

882
00:48:30,605 --> 00:48:33,805
Speaker 1: there is that perception that we should know better, or

883
00:48:33,805 --> 00:48:36,765
Speaker 1: that if you fall prey to a scam, it's because

884
00:48:36,805 --> 00:48:42,685
Speaker 1: your naive or stupid or ignorant. And Charlotte experience that shaming.

885
00:48:43,405 --> 00:48:46,285
Speaker 1: The story that you just heard is one that she's

886
00:48:46,325 --> 00:48:48,485
Speaker 1: still grappling with, and I'm sure you could hear that,

887
00:48:49,285 --> 00:48:51,325
Speaker 1: and she's chosen to share it because if she can

888
00:48:51,365 --> 00:48:54,525
Speaker 1: help other people, then she can make meaning from the

889
00:48:54,565 --> 00:48:59,325
Speaker 1: most terrifying and bewildering day of her life. But she

890
00:48:59,365 --> 00:49:01,845
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be known just for this story, and

891
00:49:02,525 --> 00:49:06,205
Speaker 1: nor should she be. What struck me so much is

892
00:49:06,405 --> 00:49:09,285
Speaker 1: what she said about the scammers finding her weak point

893
00:49:09,405 --> 00:49:11,645
Speaker 1: and then pressing on it, because we all have a

894
00:49:11,685 --> 00:49:14,365
Speaker 1: weak point, right For her, it was her son and

895
00:49:14,405 --> 00:49:17,365
Speaker 1: the idea that he could be in danger. Who can't

896
00:49:17,405 --> 00:49:20,165
Speaker 1: relate to that that someone that you love could be

897
00:49:20,245 --> 00:49:22,365
Speaker 1: in danger if you don't do what someone tells you

898
00:49:22,405 --> 00:49:26,365
Speaker 1: to do. After our conversation ended, Charlotte was telling me

899
00:49:26,405 --> 00:49:29,485
Speaker 1: about how AI is now making these scams even more

900
00:49:29,525 --> 00:49:32,605
Speaker 1: sophisticated so they can mimic the sound of your loved

901
00:49:32,605 --> 00:49:35,085
Speaker 1: one's voice. So imagine that you picked up the phone

902
00:49:35,845 --> 00:49:38,685
Speaker 1: and it was your partner or your friend, or your

903
00:49:38,725 --> 00:49:42,765
Speaker 1: mother or your child saying that they needed money desperately.

904
00:49:43,565 --> 00:49:46,765
Speaker 1: Imagine that. And she said that families need to have

905
00:49:46,805 --> 00:49:50,765
Speaker 1: a password in case something like this ever happens, because,

906
00:49:50,805 --> 00:49:53,605
Speaker 1: of course, in the moment you're so panicked, it doesn't

907
00:49:53,605 --> 00:49:55,245
Speaker 1: occur to you that it's going to be a scam,

908
00:49:55,325 --> 00:49:58,685
Speaker 1: particularly if it's the actual voice of someone that you know.

909
00:49:59,485 --> 00:50:03,445
Speaker 1: So she said, if you agree with your family, and

910
00:50:03,725 --> 00:50:06,445
Speaker 1: maybe you know your parents as well, that there's a

911
00:50:06,445 --> 00:50:09,525
Speaker 1: password that you use and before you do any thing

912
00:50:09,605 --> 00:50:13,205
Speaker 1: you say, what's the password? If anything just seems confusing

913
00:50:13,485 --> 00:50:17,285
Speaker 1: or really highly charged and emotional in that moment. Now,

914
00:50:17,365 --> 00:50:20,285
Speaker 1: Charlotte's moving on, and she continues to write prolifically. She's

915
00:50:20,325 --> 00:50:22,885
Speaker 1: a beautiful writer. She has so many other things coming up.

916
00:50:22,885 --> 00:50:24,525
Speaker 1: We've popped a link in our show notes so that

917
00:50:24,565 --> 00:50:27,285
Speaker 1: you can follow her, because she is so much more

918
00:50:27,285 --> 00:50:30,125
Speaker 1: than this story, just like we're all so much more

919
00:50:30,485 --> 00:50:33,365
Speaker 1: than the worst thing that's happened to us. The executive

920
00:50:33,365 --> 00:50:36,525
Speaker 1: producer of No Filter is Niama Brown, and she and

921
00:50:36,565 --> 00:50:39,325
Speaker 1: her husband are currently arguing about what the family password

922
00:50:39,325 --> 00:50:42,765
Speaker 1: should be. Our audio production is by Leah paul Just.

923
00:50:43,205 --> 00:50:45,845
Speaker 1: She doesn't have a family password either, but she and

924
00:50:45,885 --> 00:50:48,205
Speaker 1: her partner will have one by the end of the day.

925
00:50:49,045 --> 00:50:51,845
Speaker 1: I'm Meya Friedman. We've had family passwords for years, but

926
00:50:51,885 --> 00:50:54,085
Speaker 1: it was more when the kids were little and it

927
00:50:54,205 --> 00:50:56,365
Speaker 1: was about, you know, there was that scam or that

928
00:50:56,405 --> 00:50:58,285
Speaker 1: fear going round that someone would come up to your

929
00:50:58,325 --> 00:51:00,965
Speaker 1: kid after school and say, Hey, your mom's in hospital.

930
00:51:01,365 --> 00:51:03,365
Speaker 1: You need to come with me. She sent me to

931
00:51:03,405 --> 00:51:05,605
Speaker 1: come and pick you up. So we had a password

932
00:51:05,645 --> 00:51:08,005
Speaker 1: back then, but it hadn't occurred to me to have

933
00:51:08,045 --> 00:51:11,245
Speaker 1: one now. But oh my goodness, guess what we're going

934
00:51:11,285 --> 00:51:14,405
Speaker 1: to be discussing over family dinner tonight. Go do it

935
00:51:14,725 --> 00:51:23,125
Speaker 1: right now, and I'll see you next week.