Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of indigenous culture.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Cassinia Lukish and this is diary of a birth.
Speaker 1: We've all been thrown curveballs in life, but a cancer
Speaker 1: diagnosis two days before finding out you're pregnant has to
Speaker 1: be one of the toughest blows possible. Today's mum navigated
Speaker 1: this unimaginable situation with an immense amount of strength and
Speaker 1: got through it all with a beautiful, healthy baby.
Speaker 3: It was just such a brutal thing to happen, something
Speaker 3: you've been looking forward to, only to find out after
Speaker 3: you've just been basically told that you might not have
Speaker 3: long to live.
Speaker 1: After being diagnosed with chronic myloid leukemia and incurable blood cancer,
Speaker 1: she was advised by her doctors to terminate her pregnancy,
Speaker 1: but ultimately decided that this was meant to be. So
Speaker 1: let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm elle and this is the diary of my
Speaker 3: birth with tal.
Speaker 1: So Elle. You've told your story a number of times
Speaker 1: and it is a really difficult time for you, your
Speaker 1: journalist in the public eye. You know, I remember when
Speaker 1: this happened, as we were colleagues and I saw you
Speaker 1: a number of times. But can you tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about what happened, you know, the two days
Speaker 1: before you found out that you were pregnant.
Speaker 3: Yes, So two days before I found out I was
Speaker 3: pregnant with my first child, I was diagnosed with a
Speaker 3: rare form of blood cancer, which was an absolute shock,
Speaker 3: to say the least, and something that you don't expect
Speaker 3: to hear when you're thirty years old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and were there any symptoms for you? Like, what
Speaker 1: was your reason for going to the doctor.
Speaker 3: So ironically, I went to my doctor initially to get
Speaker 3: my folate and vitamin D checked because me and my husband,
Speaker 3: we've been together for about ten years, married for I
Speaker 3: think three, and we kind of thought, okay, my thirtieth
Speaker 3: out of the way, let's maybe consider starting a family.
Speaker 3: But we were kind of not in a rush, and
Speaker 3: so I just wanted to make sure that I kind
Speaker 3: of had all my health, you know, looking good before
Speaker 3: we did anything, and so it kind of corresponded with
Speaker 3: a bit of gastro that I had. So I went
Speaker 3: to the doctor. I was like, while I'm here, I
Speaker 3: want to get all my blood's taken just to see
Speaker 3: how I'm going. And then he got back to me
Speaker 3: and he said, folate's okay, so gi vitamin D. But
Speaker 3: you've also got something happening with your platelet levels. That
Speaker 3: didn't mean anything to me at the time, so I said, okay,
Speaker 3: well what does that mean. He said, come back in
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks. It might just be a reaction
Speaker 3: to the bug you had. And so two weeks later
Speaker 3: I went back, got the tests again and the platelets
Speaker 3: were actually worse than they were before, so they were higher,
Speaker 3: and he said, probably best we go and ReFood to
Speaker 3: a specialist just to rule out anything bad. And so
Speaker 3: I said, okay, sure, but you know we specialists it
Speaker 3: takes forever. So I think it was about nine weeks
Speaker 3: or something crazy before I could actually go and see them.
Speaker 3: So in that time I kind of just forgot about
Speaker 3: it was doing, you know, working too much, as we
Speaker 3: all do. I was feeling a bit tired, but not
Speaker 3: ridiculously so not concerningly, so if that makes sense. And
Speaker 3: so when it came for my appointment, I went and
Speaker 3: I got all these blood tests, and the lady at
Speaker 3: the hematology department said, look, we'll probably get in touch
Speaker 3: with in about three weeks to organize the specialist appointment,
Speaker 3: so see you later. So I get home the next day,
Speaker 3: which was a Thursday, I get a phone call at
Speaker 3: nine am on the dot and it was from the
Speaker 3: hematology department at RPA to tell me that no, they
Speaker 3: weren't calling me in three weeks. I had to come
Speaker 3: and see them on Monday, which was four days from then,
Speaker 3: and bring a loved one with me. And I mean,
Speaker 3: when you're told to bring someone with you to a
Speaker 3: doctor's appointment, you know that it's not going to be
Speaker 3: good news. So that was incredibly difficult because I thought,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to wait four days to find out
Speaker 3: if I'm dying, you know, and the worst things go
Speaker 3: through your head. And so my GP managed to kind
Speaker 3: of find out what was going on and came over
Speaker 3: that night and broke the news to me and my
Speaker 3: husband that I was diagnosed with with leukemia, and my
Speaker 3: wealth fell apart at that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have hit like a ton of recks.
Speaker 3: It's hard to kind of explain. It's hard to describe.
Speaker 3: I guess it's what you feel like, you know, that
Speaker 3: moment that you're about to die. Yeah, everything on it
Speaker 3: comes full circle and like you're looking down a dark
Speaker 3: tunnel and you can't see or hear anything else except
Speaker 3: kind of this light in front of you, just like
Speaker 3: a deer in headlights.
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, so you find out and then how
Speaker 1: did you find out that you were pregnant?
Speaker 3: So you know, you're sitting at home, I'm just like
Speaker 3: in this kind of still in shock, I guess. And
Speaker 3: I thought to myself, Oh my god, what would be
Speaker 3: the worst situation ever if I was pregnant. So I'd
Speaker 3: actually taken a pregnancy test about two weeks before because
Speaker 3: I was out with some friends and I wanted to
Speaker 3: have a drink and I wasn't sure if I was
Speaker 3: or not, Like we just weren't being very careful, if
Speaker 3: that makes sense. And so I did it and it
Speaker 3: was negative, so that was great. But then I bought
Speaker 3: a two pac so I thought he's probably gonna ask
Speaker 3: on the Monday when I go in for the you know,
Speaker 3: proper specialist appointment. So I decided to just did the
Speaker 3: second test and was not expecting it, but it was positive.
Speaker 3: I was like, really, like, is this actually happening to me?
Speaker 3: Like you think to the universe, like are you serious? Okay,
Speaker 3: give me something to tackle, but don't complicate it like this.
Speaker 3: You know, it was just such a brutal thing to happen,
Speaker 3: something you've been looking forward to, only to find out
Speaker 3: after you've just been basically that you might not have
Speaker 3: long to live. You know, at that point of like,
Speaker 3: I don't know what this means to me. We hadn't
Speaker 3: even met the specialist. All I knew was I had
Speaker 3: blood cancer. And when you think about blood cancer, that
Speaker 3: sounds pretty bad, right.
Speaker 1: Oh, leukemia as well. I mean the word leukemia thrown
Speaker 1: around is something that that's also you know, that's really serious.
Speaker 1: So this weekend, before your specialist appointment, you and Nick
Speaker 1: found out that you're pregnant and you have leukemia. What
Speaker 1: are you doing on that weekend?
Speaker 3: I was I was high on drugs, to be honest,
Speaker 3: I'd asked my GP to give me some pretty hardcore
Speaker 3: muscle relaxance. I'd probably popped way too many than I
Speaker 3: should have. So I was in a bit of a
Speaker 3: kind of comatose state, just kind of like watching TV
Speaker 3: but not watching it, and just imagining me lying in
Speaker 3: a hospital bed close to death. You know, you start thinking,
Speaker 3: my god, oh my, who am I going to give
Speaker 3: my wardrobe too? I haven't even tonde my will yet,
Speaker 3: you know, all of those things start going through your mind.
Speaker 3: And my husband's on the computer in the background, like
Speaker 3: trying to research or trying to figure out what we're
Speaker 3: going to do, and I'm just sitting there just going fuck.
Speaker 3: And then I just didn't think that there was going
Speaker 3: to be any way out of this, Like this is
Speaker 3: just going to end badly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when we got to the appointment on the Monday,
Speaker 3: it was quite bizarre having to tell him the news
Speaker 3: when we already knew what he was going to tell us.
Speaker 3: And basically he was like, well, this is a really
Speaker 3: rare cancer for someone of your age and gender, because
Speaker 3: normally men who are like sixty plus get this disease,
Speaker 3: and with blood cancers, it's quite interesting that there really
Speaker 3: aren't any direct lifestyle factors associated with the onset of
Speaker 3: blood cancer. So I was kind of what have I done?
Speaker 3: You know, what could I have done to not have this,
Speaker 3: and he's like, look, it's just it's just bad luck.
Speaker 3: But it's really weird for you to have it. And
Speaker 3: I've never treated anyone who's been in this situation, so
Speaker 3: best thing to do. You're my patient. So my advice is,
Speaker 3: you know, terminate the pregnancy, go on fertility treatment, and
Speaker 3: then we'll put you on these new drugs that are
Speaker 3: going to save your life pretty much. And I was like, wow, Okay,
Speaker 3: that seems a really like messed up thing to do.
Speaker 3: Terminate a child only so that you can go on fertility.
Speaker 1: Drugs seems karen intuitive. Yeah, So when they told you
Speaker 1: about the cancer, what was the prognosis for the cancer?
Speaker 1: Was the cancer treatable? Was it incurable? Was it like?
Speaker 1: What was the prognosis?
Speaker 3: So he basically said, it's incurable. However, it's treatable. So
Speaker 3: I had a chromosome, two chromosomes twenty six and nine,
Speaker 3: which broke apart randomly and switched and attached to each other.
Speaker 3: So he said, with this chromosome, we can't reattach them
Speaker 3: in the right spots. However, new drugs come on the market.
Speaker 3: It's kind of been around only for a few years
Speaker 3: before that, chronic leukemia was pretty much a death sentence
Speaker 3: three to five year survival rate on average. But these
Speaker 3: new drugs change the game. And now if you take
Speaker 3: the drugs and they work for you and you can
Speaker 3: tolerate them, then you might live a long and healthy life.
Speaker 3: That's the plan, that's the hope. If there's a mutation
Speaker 3: that can change things, it looks good, but we have
Speaker 3: to get onto it really quickly because if it's untreated,
Speaker 3: it mutates into an acute form of leukemia, which can
Speaker 3: be fatal obviously, So that's why it's really important that
Speaker 3: we get these drugs into you pretty quickly. And you
Speaker 3: can't be pregnant while you're on them, okay. So I
Speaker 3: was like wow, okay, And I didn't know how kind
Speaker 3: of progressed the cancer was, so I was all so
Speaker 3: many unknowns.
Speaker 1: Right How far along were you? Do? You know?
Speaker 3: Very early? I was only about four weeks and okay,
Speaker 3: And in my mind I was like, well, it seems
Speaker 3: so weird that like I've managed to kind of create
Speaker 3: a life when my body is not so good, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I thought, well, there is a pretty high chance
Speaker 3: that it's just going to kind of self terminate it
Speaker 3: right if the body's like, well, this is not the
Speaker 3: right time to have a baby. So part of me
Speaker 3: was like, well, maybe we just wait see if we
Speaker 3: get to the twelve weeks. And if we do, then
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, is that not kind of a sign
Speaker 3: that this kid's a pretty strong kid? And maybe I
Speaker 3: give it the benefit of the doubt. And then so
Speaker 3: with that kind of thinking in my mind, and then
Speaker 3: my husband going, I found this world globally recognized expert
Speaker 3: in this particular cancer. Let's go and visit him down
Speaker 3: in South Australia. First time I've ever been to Adelaide.
Speaker 3: It's lovely, which I'd been more under better circumstances, but
Speaker 3: the facility there, the research facility that I went down to,
Speaker 3: was just incredible. And doctor Hughes, who is the professor,
Speaker 3: he was just amazing us. It. Look, your professor is right,
Speaker 3: your hematologist that this is not very common and there
Speaker 3: are a lot of risks. But maybe if you do
Speaker 3: watch and wait, we can put you on this other
Speaker 3: drug which was back in the day, the only kind
Speaker 3: of line of defense that they had to treat this cancer,
Speaker 3: and it might just give you that extra time before
Speaker 3: you can give birth to keep the cancer kind of obey.
Speaker 3: So basically it was I had to inject it once
Speaker 3: a week.
Speaker 1: And that was safe to take during pregnancy.
Speaker 3: Yes, it didn't cross the blood brain barrier.
Speaker 1: Into the placenta, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3: And it was called interferon and it was what they
Speaker 3: used before this other drug called a tki tyras in
Speaker 3: Canadian hibita was introduced. So it's like, it's pretty not fun,
Speaker 3: Like it's not the funnest struggle to take. Some people
Speaker 3: find it really hard, others don't find it too hard.
Speaker 3: But it's the best chance we've got. So I was like,
Speaker 3: all right, well let's just see how we go. So
Speaker 3: that first kind of a few weeks was a waiting game.
Speaker 3: But interestingly this happened. This was all going on pretty
Speaker 3: much this time nine years ago, so it was the
Speaker 3: first week of May that everything kind of happened. So
Speaker 3: it was around Mother's Day and that was around the
Speaker 3: time that I told my parents and in laws, and
Speaker 3: it was just horrible. You know, you want to go,
Speaker 3: guess we're pregnant, and for everyone to go yay, but
Speaker 3: it was like, guess what, we're pregnant, and people, you know,
Speaker 3: my family was like oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 3: And it was just like seeing a mirror of the
Speaker 3: horrible situation that you were facing every time we had
Speaker 3: to break the news to them, And for me, it
Speaker 3: was just so horrible, kind of feeling like this is
Speaker 3: not the way that we wanted to celebrate the announcement
Speaker 3: of our child. So it was, Yeah, that was pretty
Speaker 3: hard to deal with.
Speaker 1: Coming up.
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden outcomes this baby, three
Speaker 3: point one kilos perfect, you know, ten fingers, ten toes.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: So you start taking the interfere on, your pregnancy starts progressing.
Speaker 1: How is your not just your physical health, but I imagine
Speaker 1: your mental health would have really struggled during this time.
Speaker 1: Did you stop working for a while, did you what
Speaker 1: was your kind of battle plan for your mind?
Speaker 3: It's so bizarre. So I've had anxiety since my early twenties,
Speaker 3: and I think it's that whole adage that when you're healthy,
Speaker 3: you have a thousand problems, when you're sick, you have one.
Speaker 3: And that really puts into perspective exactly how I was feeling.
Speaker 3: Because I was such an anxious person before all this happened,
Speaker 3: and then I kind of it gave me this opportunity
Speaker 3: to pause and go, why the fuck was I so
Speaker 3: stressed about deadlines and all of these things that really
Speaker 3: don't matter in the scheme of things. And so I just,
Speaker 3: for the first time in so long, I was mindful
Speaker 3: and I was present, and I was like, Wow, I
Speaker 3: might have a long life, but I might also have
Speaker 3: a short life to live. I better start enjoying it
Speaker 3: and be present and appreciating the time I have. And
Speaker 3: the anxiety just fell away. And I'd actually never been
Speaker 3: in a weird, messed up way more full of joy
Speaker 3: in my life because I was given this chance to
Speaker 3: clear my mind of all of the bullshit that was
Speaker 3: going on in my life that I used to worry
Speaker 3: about and literally just stop and spend time with my
Speaker 3: own mind and just get outside and walk in nature
Speaker 3: and connect with this little thing that was growing inside me.
Speaker 3: I'd never felt such peace in my life. It was
Speaker 3: so bizarre. And I look back and I go, Wow,
Speaker 3: I wish I could get back to that place. Hasn't happened.
Speaker 3: I'd get close.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you've had a mind shift, for sure. So you're
Speaker 1: on these drugs, they're obviously monitoring you very closely, and
Speaker 1: bub is growing well and healthy and tours good to
Speaker 1: find out the sex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was really nice because on my birthday,
Speaker 3: this was August, I think I was in my halfway
Speaker 3: through my second trimester by then, and I was feeling confident.
Speaker 3: I was kind of at that point where I was like,
Speaker 3: we could be okay here, you know, and I'd started
Speaker 3: to feel all of the pregnancy things. And funnily enough,
Speaker 3: despite all of the drama at the beginning, actual pregnancy
Speaker 3: was fairly non eventful in terms of like he was
Speaker 3: growing at a pretty good rate. Head size was extremely
Speaker 3: large for his percentile, which was concerning. But on my birthday,
Speaker 3: we decided that we were going to do a gender reveal,
Speaker 3: so we gave the gender to the cake person, so
Speaker 3: we didn't know when we got all of my family together,
Speaker 3: and being able to celebrate that kind of made up
Speaker 3: for the kind of initial discovery that we were pregnant,
Speaker 3: which was so filled with sadness and you know, trepidation.
Speaker 3: So it was just such a great feeling to be
Speaker 3: able to be there with our families and really celebrate,
Speaker 3: you know, this this baby who was so far looking
Speaker 3: like he was going to come into the world, so
Speaker 3: it was a boy. And then after that it was
Speaker 3: kind of just a bit of a waiting game, and
Speaker 3: I was getting tested, i think every second week to
Speaker 3: see how my levels were going. And it was at
Speaker 3: about thirty five or thirty four weeks which things started
Speaker 3: to look a little bit scary.
Speaker 1: The cancer side.
Speaker 3: Yes, So at that point my cancer levels had been
Speaker 3: they were growing, they were rising, but they were not
Speaker 3: rising to the point that it was going to affect
Speaker 3: my physical health and heading to that stage of acute likemia, right,
Speaker 3: But once it kind of started to hit the bit
Speaker 3: of a threshold, then it would kind of almost proliferate
Speaker 3: because if you think about the cell proliferations like two,
Speaker 3: then four, then eight. So it was growing slowly at first,
Speaker 3: but then it started to get a bit worrying, and
Speaker 3: so my specialist said, look, let's we think you need
Speaker 3: to be induced early, so like as soon as we can.
Speaker 3: Four weeks is kind of the earliest that we think
Speaker 3: we can induce you with the baby still being healthy enough,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: So at the thirty six week mark, thirty.
Speaker 3: Six, by this time, I was pretty big, and this
Speaker 3: baby was getting bigger and bigger by the day, so
Speaker 3: I ended up being induced around I think it was
Speaker 3: like the eleventh of December, and he didn't want to
Speaker 3: come out. He was he was really happy in there,
Speaker 3: So ended up doing the sweep, which wasn't very fun.
Speaker 3: Want to come out still not happening. Then they're like, well,
Speaker 3: the next thing we can do is a balloon catheter,
Speaker 3: even less fun. And I just remember sitting in this
Speaker 3: kind of room in the hospital that the RPA is
Speaker 3: going because they'd give me the green dream. So I
Speaker 3: was like wigging out a bit and I was like,
Speaker 3: what is going on down there? And I just felt horrible.
Speaker 3: But luckily the balloon catheter kicked things off and so
Speaker 3: we were yeah, it looked like things are about to
Speaker 3: about to start coming together.
Speaker 1: Did you have any oxytocin at this point?
Speaker 3: Do you know what? I can't remember. I don't think so.
Speaker 3: And then they're like, oh, yeah, things look like they're happening.
Speaker 3: Not enough, So that's when I had the oxytocin. And
Speaker 3: it was when I had the oxytocin that they're like,
Speaker 3: all right, we are go.
Speaker 1: Time came on.
Speaker 3: So I was kind of the mindset that like, give
Speaker 3: me whatever drugs you need. I've had enough drama in
Speaker 3: this pregnancy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I love the idea of water births and home berths
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. I was like, if the doctors
Speaker 3: are going to say do this, I'm just gonna put
Speaker 3: my hand up see whatever, because who knows things go
Speaker 3: really pear shaped? I don't know, So I'm just going
Speaker 3: to try and go along for the ride. See what happens.
Speaker 3: So I was like, yep, give me the epidural, please,
Speaker 3: thank you. And then I think it was about like
Speaker 3: an hour later, like I was pretty like fully dilated
Speaker 3: by then or nearly. I was in a lot of pain.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is no, I don't want to
Speaker 3: do this. Like I was exhausted because it had kind
Speaker 3: of come on so quickly once the oxytocin kind of
Speaker 3: kicked in. And they're like you shouldn't be like this,
Speaker 3: like you've had an epidural. And the nurse came over
Speaker 3: and she's like is this can you feel this? And
Speaker 3: she put an ice pack on my leg and I
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, that's freezing and she's like oh, and
Speaker 3: you know when they the face and they're like I
Speaker 3: was like what. So she's like, I might just have
Speaker 3: to speak to the anathetist. So the anethesis comes back
Speaker 3: and she's like, look, I don't think the epi durol
Speaker 3: has properly worked. And I was like, god, well yeah,
Speaker 3: because I was like, this is really I'm dying here.
Speaker 3: And so they, luckily they gave it another crack, and
Speaker 3: I was like, once it kicked in you when you know,
Speaker 3: you know, I was like, oh, this is what it's
Speaker 3: supposed to feel like. So I'm reading mags it had
Speaker 3: a nap.
Speaker 1: I had a nap perfect.
Speaker 3: And then they're like, okay, it's time to you know,
Speaker 3: start getting the child out. I was like, oh, okay, great,
Speaker 3: and they're like, yeah, okay, push and I was like,
Speaker 3: is this right? And you have to almost remember how
Speaker 3: to push because you don't feel anything. And it's almost
Speaker 3: like I think the second FIE had like fully, I
Speaker 3: couldn't feel a thing, and I was going, you know
Speaker 3: what if I'm ripped from you know, vadge to anus,
Speaker 3: so be it right because I don't feel anything. Now
Speaker 3: we can figure that out once sew me up, to
Speaker 3: sew me up exactly. Just make sure you know there's
Speaker 3: a bit more of this epi dural stuff going on anyway.
Speaker 3: So I'm pushing because this child had like it was
Speaker 3: four weeks early, but he was still a big kid.
Speaker 3: I was pretty sure at this point. So they're like, yep,
Speaker 3: just keep pushing, and then all of a sudden outcomes
Speaker 3: this baby, three point one kilos, perfect, absolutely, you know,
Speaker 3: ten fingers, ten toes, and I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 3: Like just the fact that this whole thing had come
Speaker 3: to a head with this child in my arms was
Speaker 3: hard to kind of fathom. My guess. Took a couple
Speaker 3: of days for that to really kick in. Actually it did.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I think that even without a
Speaker 1: leukemia diagnosis, seeing a child for the first time is remarkable.
Speaker 1: But being told to terminate a pregnancy because of your
Speaker 1: own health, pushing through and then delivering a perfectly healthy,
Speaker 1: beautiful baby boy, you must have just been you and
Speaker 1: neck must have just been elated.
Speaker 3: Do you know what the relief that I think after
Speaker 3: I had him, you know, when you get the baby blues,
Speaker 3: it was that was pretty intense because it came. I
Speaker 3: felt like I'd almost subconsciously been like holding my breath
Speaker 3: for nine months, and I'd been thinking so much about
Speaker 3: my child, not myself, and so once that all came out,
Speaker 3: I kind of got to think about myself for a minute,
Speaker 3: and that's when I kind of had a real crash.
Speaker 3: My mental health just kind of went in a way
Speaker 3: because I'd kind of gotten through that and I'd been
Speaker 3: surrounded by so much love, which was great, But then
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god. I hadn't even really
Speaker 3: been thinking about the next step, like having a baby
Speaker 3: and being a mom. You know, this was all stuff
Speaker 3: that I think, you know, you've got that nine months
Speaker 3: to prepare for, but in my mind, I was like,
Speaker 3: just get through the day, just you know, survive. And
Speaker 3: I was so present that I wasn't really thinking to
Speaker 3: the future. So when I had the baby, I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. And then I had to start treatment,
Speaker 3: so that was like another thing. And yeah, it was
Speaker 3: full on the first few weeks after having tour, to be.
Speaker 1: Honest, Yeah, how soon after having tour did you start
Speaker 1: the treatment?
Speaker 3: So after I had him, my levels went down, which
Speaker 3: was really great, and I really wanted to try and
Speaker 3: breastfeed if I could, just because you know, he'd been
Speaker 3: in a body that was not well and I kind
Speaker 3: of just really wanted to make sure that he had
Speaker 3: a good kind of start, and so they said, look,
Speaker 3: we can delay it a couple of weeks. And so
Speaker 3: I think I had three or four weeks to breastfeed.
Speaker 3: And I was so determined to fill the freezer up
Speaker 3: that I was just like on a mission. So I
Speaker 3: wasn't sleeping. I was like, you know, hardly eating, and
Speaker 3: I just wanted to breastfeed. And you know the emotional
Speaker 3: impact that it can have on you. I just remember
Speaker 3: like sitting in my laund room with these pumps, just
Speaker 3: like wailing. That's kind of the I guess the best
Speaker 3: or the clearest vision that I have in those first
Speaker 3: few weeks after tour.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Yeah, I know, all you can hear is that
Speaker 1: and your body, you're feeling broken, You're exhausted, the baby
Speaker 1: that it's like it is, you know, for those who
Speaker 1: do have postpartum anxiety depression, it is very hard to
Speaker 1: enjoy those golden weeks when you feel so awful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's hard to I think to just describe to
Speaker 1: a lot of people how challenging that is mentally when
Speaker 1: you are feeling obviously very grateful, but your mind's not
Speaker 1: in that same space.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, you've done so much international travel in
Speaker 3: your time. The best thing I can think think about,
Speaker 3: like describing those first few weeks is like I'd done
Speaker 3: trips to New York in economy back and forth about
Speaker 3: twelve times. I just didn't I couldn't figure out what
Speaker 3: day it was. I didn't know who I was. I
Speaker 3: was emotional, I was exhausted, I was hungry but stressed,
Speaker 3: and yeah, no I did. To be fair, I did
Speaker 3: not like the first six weeks. After that, it was
Speaker 3: like the sun came out of the clouds. I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, Okay, I've got this. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: don't know. It's like you're in this weird bubble. But
Speaker 3: not for me. It wasn't in a good way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. With my first it was the same.
Speaker 1: I was not in a good bubble. I was in
Speaker 1: a it was very, very challenging. So I really empathized
Speaker 1: with that. But then you started your treatment, your cancer
Speaker 1: treatment with this four week old baby. What was that process?
Speaker 3: Like it's I feel like, I don't know, this sounds
Speaker 3: really weird, but I feel like the first like couple
Speaker 3: of years of having taur, like I reckon the first
Speaker 3: year and a half, I don't remember a lot, which
Speaker 3: sounds really weird, but I think because there's so much
Speaker 3: repetition and routine that I look back at the photos
Speaker 3: and I go, oh, yeah, you know that day, that day,
Speaker 3: But it's almost like my body was like, nah, you
Speaker 3: don't really need to remember kind of these moments where
Speaker 3: you're you know, a bit stressed. And I don't know,
Speaker 3: it was like that all of the anxiety that I
Speaker 3: managed to kind of keep away and just kind of
Speaker 3: flooded in a bit. And yeah, I started to kind
Speaker 3: of get a little bit stressed about you know, now
Speaker 3: I had this other, like my heart was just in
Speaker 3: front of me, and now I had to look after
Speaker 3: this child, and so I started to kind of go, oh,
Speaker 3: my god, I'm going to put my stress on you,
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to put my stress on like
Speaker 3: everything that I eat, because I, you know, I want
Speaker 3: to look after myself. And so I just I became
Speaker 3: a little bit neurotic. And I think that that was
Speaker 3: not a good good time of my life in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways. And I did enjoy moments of motherhood
Speaker 3: that was probably you know, being with Tour and interacting
Speaker 3: with him were the highlights, but the rest of it
Speaker 3: just that readjustment was a bit tough, and I really
Speaker 3: don't feel like I found my feet as a mom
Speaker 3: until he was about three. To be fair, Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: Think that that's that abnormal. Honestly. I often tell moms,
Speaker 1: like a year the first birthday party, that's celebration of you,
Speaker 1: like you did that, Like you did that, and then
Speaker 1: you're also going through all of your other stuff. But
Speaker 1: you know, here we are, we're nine years later, and
Speaker 1: thankfully you were still here with us. Yes, are you
Speaker 1: still on your treatments?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So, Look, I mean it's something that I am
Speaker 3: potentially going to be on permanently. But I mean the
Speaker 3: work that the Lakemi Foundation is doing to you know,
Speaker 3: fund research, and I think after COVID as well, I
Speaker 3: feel like medical research really started to hit it stride
Speaker 3: and there's almost that compound effect. And I really do
Speaker 3: feel like with such a tension on the medical world,
Speaker 3: we're getting closer and closer to a cure for the
Speaker 3: cancer that I have. And if not, that's okay. You know,
Speaker 3: if I lead a healthy lifestyle, I can continue on
Speaker 3: this medication, which is great. And but look, I hope
Speaker 3: that you know, for anyone who might not be you know,
Speaker 3: who might have a cancer that perhaps hasn't found a
Speaker 3: really really successful treatment that all of this research is
Speaker 3: going to sooner than later be able to change that
Speaker 3: for them. And that's you know, that's I guess why
Speaker 3: I'm so passionate about, you know, working with the Looking Foundation.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Elle, you told that story so beautifully and
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you have this beautiful, healthy nine
Speaker 1: year old who is probably going through a very different
Speaker 1: phase now as well.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, yeah, next level.
Speaker 1: But a truly truly remarkable story and a testament to
Speaker 1: your strength and a testament to you know, your intuition
Speaker 1: and faith in yourself. And thank you so much for
Speaker 1: sharing it with us. And yeah, I'm so happy that
Speaker 1: everything is good with you at the moment.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you pleading me, sar It.
Speaker 1: With such a challenging pregnancy, we wanted to get some
Speaker 1: input from our resident obsatrician and gynecologist, doctor Bromin Devine.
Speaker 1: So how does something as serious as a cancer diagnosis
Speaker 1: affect a pregnancy.
Speaker 4: Firstly, it's really important to acknowledge, as you did, that
Speaker 4: this would be one of the most traumatic and overwhelming
Speaker 4: and stressful things to have to deal with and so
Speaker 4: many decisions to make, but so much progress has been
Speaker 4: made in the last decade or so with the management
Speaker 4: of pregnant women with a malignancy or with a cancer.
Speaker 4: And the whole thing is that we take this wonderful
Speaker 4: multidisciplinary approach, so a whole team of people with expertise
Speaker 4: would work together. There'd be a big team of an
Speaker 4: oncologist and OBS and gunny specialist, a high risk pregnancy specialist,
Speaker 4: oncology nurse midwife, ninatal intensive care specialists and ninatal intensive
Speaker 4: care nurses, psychologists all coming together to provide support for
Speaker 4: the patient and for their family as well. When I
Speaker 4: started my training back in the nineties, it was sort
Speaker 4: of like, you've got cancer and you're pregnant. You've got
Speaker 4: to terminate the pregnancy. There's no way we can treat
Speaker 4: you for the cancer and keep the pregnancy safe. But
Speaker 4: there's so many for options now and what we try
Speaker 4: to do is look at keeping mum as healthy as
Speaker 4: possible and Bubb as healthy as possible, and sometimes that
Speaker 4: means having bub a bit early, but we take the
Speaker 4: pregnancy as far as we can so that the bubb
Speaker 4: is born at a gestation where they're going to be
Speaker 4: healthy so that mum can start treatment at an optimal time.
Speaker 1: Darry Overbirth was hosted by me Casanulukidch with expert input
Speaker 1: from doctor Bromwin, Divine and while we have you here,
Speaker 1: We're on the hunt to share powerful, underrepresented stories from
Speaker 1: people of all cultures, backgrounds, and abilities, so please get
Speaker 1: in touch. This episode was produced by Tina Matloff and
Speaker 1: myself Casenulukidch, with audio production by Leah Porgies. Looking for
Speaker 1: something else to listen to that's baby related, The pregnancy
Speaker 1: podcast Hello Bump could be the audio companion you've been
Speaker 1: searching for. The latest season is a week by week
Speaker 1: guide to pregnancy, holding your hand through the exciting and
Speaker 1: sometimes exhausting changes that happen to you and your baby
Speaker 1: during pregnancy. Join Olympian tern doctor Yana Pittman as she
Speaker 1: guides mom to Bee Grace Roofray through each stage of
Speaker 1: her very first pregnancy. This is a podcast about what
Speaker 1: you're not expecting when you're expecting