Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm onm with mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Are Taylor Swift's fans yield Swifties in a cult? Well,
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and have a little conversation about it.
Speaker 2: What is a cult?
Speaker 3: And do any of the Swifty behaviors look like cult behavior?
Speaker 3: A few things to keep in mind here while we're
Speaker 3: going through this, and this is an article from very
Speaker 3: Well Mind, So good stuff. Number one, cults demand intense
Speaker 3: loyalty to a strict belief system or charismatic leader. People
Speaker 3: may join cults because they desire a sense of belonging, guidance,
Speaker 3: or purpose, even though there are high personal costs.
Speaker 2: Keep that in mind.
Speaker 4: For mother Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante.
Speaker 1: Welcome to But Are You Happy?
Speaker 4: The podcast for people who journal about their feelings and
Speaker 4: then go to their therapist.
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastatia Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Now you've probably heard terms like cult,
Speaker 2: classic or cult following thrown around, right. Maybe you've even
Speaker 2: found yourself in a group that feels a little culty,
Speaker 2: like a hardcore fandom or super intense community.
Speaker 4: But what actually separates these groups from an actual traditional
Speaker 4: cult like where's the line?
Speaker 2: Today, we're diving into that question, exploring what cults really
Speaker 2: are and why it can be surprisingly easy to get
Speaker 2: pulled into a high demand group because at the core
Speaker 2: of it all, it often comes down to one simple thing.
Speaker 4: Let's get into it. So the word cult gets thrown
Speaker 4: around a lot in today's world. You hear things like
Speaker 4: cult like products, cult like culture, cult like following, and
Speaker 4: you know, it actually gets me thinking about Taylor Swift.
Speaker 4: You know, everyone loves her, obsessed with her. I feel
Speaker 4: like she's very talented, and it gets me thinking more
Speaker 4: specifically around Swifties, like, are the Swifties in a cult?
Speaker 1: We're going there, We are going.
Speaker 2: To starting straight there.
Speaker 4: We are.
Speaker 2: Well, look, there's some features of Swifties that are similar
Speaker 2: to people who are perhaps part of cults.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that the Swifties are in a cult. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's as you say, like that sort of like
Speaker 2: cult like following. We use that. We use the cult,
Speaker 2: the word cult in so many different ways, which speaks
Speaker 2: to a lot of things that we'll get into. But look,
Speaker 2: there are some features that resemble cults. Right, So Swifties
Speaker 2: love Taylor Swift they see her as the goddess, the queen,
Speaker 2: the be all and end all. They're involved in rituals
Speaker 2: like the friendship bracelets, even like dressing like her, and
Speaker 2: you know, buying all the merch buying all the records
Speaker 2: and everything. So there's a real devotion from Swifties to
Speaker 2: their queen, Taylor Swift. So from that lens, we see
Speaker 2: similarities with cults right where there is usually a leader
Speaker 2: or a figure that people are really devoted to. The
Speaker 2: difference here is that Swifties hopefully aren't being forced into
Speaker 2: following Taylor Swift. You know, they're doing so voluntary. They're
Speaker 2: not feeling like they're going to be punished or there's
Speaker 2: going to be some sort of negative consequence for them
Speaker 2: if they decide to move away from the Swifty fandom
Speaker 2: and decide that they don't want to be a Swifty anymore.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting too because it gets me reflecting around,
Speaker 4: Oh am I swifty?
Speaker 1: Like, I don't really know.
Speaker 4: I don't think, I don't I'm not a swifty.
Speaker 2: I think if you're a Swifty, you wouldn't be questioning
Speaker 2: if you're a swifty.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't think i'd be getting defensive with
Speaker 4: this conversation, you know what I mean, because I feel
Speaker 4: like just I mean, I see it all the time
Speaker 4: in my socials, Like you know, I have a lot
Speaker 4: of women on my Instagram, so it's just people are
Speaker 4: obsessed with her, and for me, it's it's quite beautiful
Speaker 4: to witness being like, oh wow, everyone gets so excited,
Speaker 4: Like I know when her latest album came up, the
Speaker 4: Life of a show Girl and how people had listening
Speaker 4: parties and we're getting really excited about the countdown for
Speaker 4: the launch, and I'm like.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 4: I appreciate how people get really excited about it, but
Speaker 4: there is also an element for me where.
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit excluded.
Speaker 4: Because I'm like, oh, like I want to be a
Speaker 4: part of it, because it's like that fomo element. But
Speaker 4: also I'm like, oh, but then I'm just trying to
Speaker 4: become something I'm not. I'm not going to listen to
Speaker 4: her whole album straight away.
Speaker 2: There's definitely that feeling of all or nothing, right because
Speaker 2: I have a similar feeling like I can appreciate Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift and her music amazing story. Yes, yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: call myself a Swifty. I'm not the first to listen
Speaker 2: to the new record or go to a listening party.
Speaker 4: Yah.
Speaker 2: And actually there's a part of me that almost wants
Speaker 2: to push back against swift It's like, no, well, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to do that, or I don't want to
Speaker 2: be a part of that, because it feels like if
Speaker 2: you're in it, you have to be fully in it,
Speaker 2: you have to be fully committed, you have to know
Speaker 2: all the songs, the meaning behind every lyric. Ye. And
Speaker 2: I don't know that I want to commit that much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting like when I know, we're sort of
Speaker 2: kind of loosely talking about this in the context of cults, right,
Speaker 2: But the difference with the cult, as we're saying, is
Speaker 2: that you won't have this sort of negative pushback or
Speaker 2: any criticism or like you know, you know, you're not
Speaker 2: being forced to kind of follow along. But I will
Speaker 2: say that what we do see with swifties is they
Speaker 2: are they can be quite critical of those who are
Speaker 2: not on the Tailor Swift bandwagon, and there have sort
Speaker 2: of been these quite tense exchanges we see them online.
Speaker 2: If people are not really kind of a big Tailor
Speaker 2: Swift fan, that swifties run to Taylor Swift's defense, and
Speaker 2: so it does then make it feel like it's hard
Speaker 2: to sit in the middle ground of like oh yeah,
Speaker 2: like you know, her music's great, you've sort of got
Speaker 2: to be in or out. Yeah, and that's maybe where
Speaker 2: we get more of those like cult like flavors coming through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: So it's interesting because when it comes to being a
Speaker 4: swifty right, like, it feels like you need to you know,
Speaker 4: buy buy the vinyl or buy the merch to feel
Speaker 4: like you're part of it. So is that kind of
Speaker 4: an element of something that is cult like, like you
Speaker 4: have to buy.
Speaker 1: More to feel more a sense of belonging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I yes, the
Speaker 2: difference between having to sort of purchase things and sort
Speaker 2: of give money forward to feel like you're part of
Speaker 2: something adds a different element as opposed to being part
Speaker 2: of a group where you feel like you can belong
Speaker 2: and have that sense of connection on a broader level
Speaker 2: without needing to spend money to be a part of
Speaker 2: that group. So that sort of capitalist element, does you know,
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift has received some criticism for this that you know,
Speaker 2: it's not just about the kind of connection and community
Speaker 2: she creates, But there is really this sort of capitalist
Speaker 2: lens there as well that's important to consider. I still
Speaker 2: don't know that that necessarily means it's a cult, yes,
Speaker 2: but it does add another layer where I guess if
Speaker 2: we're asking people to buy into something, there's going to
Speaker 2: be people who can't afford that, and it might mean
Speaker 2: that they then feel excluded. And look, Taylor Swift is
Speaker 2: not the first person to kind of have this celebrity
Speaker 2: status with this fandom behind her. You know, we saw
Speaker 2: in the days of Justin Bieber the believer.
Speaker 1: Yes, are you a believer?
Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not a Swift ear of believer. And
Speaker 2: I think like the Beatles had Beatlemania, And actually I
Speaker 2: was doing like I was doing research into sort of
Speaker 2: like big celebrities or bands that have had these big
Speaker 2: sort of followings and not just followings in the sense
Speaker 2: that you know, people really like to listen to their music,
Speaker 2: but really kind of get behind them with this sense
Speaker 2: of fandom. And I was doing research and it said,
Speaker 2: you know, back even to the days of like classical music.
Speaker 2: So Richard Wagner wrote the Ring Cycles and apparently he
Speaker 2: as you do dedicated a shrine to himself, like when
Speaker 2: he died, and the people actually go to the shrine
Speaker 2: and like listen to his music and engage with his music.
Speaker 2: But it's just like real commitment to it. That's quite
Speaker 2: interesting when you see people go to quite extreme lengths
Speaker 2: to be a part of something.
Speaker 4: And it's interesting because I feel like a lot of
Speaker 4: the things that we've spoken about in terms of cults
Speaker 4: have been in a more or non traditional way.
Speaker 1: But what actually is a cult.
Speaker 2: There's no actual, one single definition of what a cult is.
Speaker 2: But I was doing a bit of research and there
Speaker 2: are some common themes to think about how we would
Speaker 2: describe a cult like group. So occult is usually a
Speaker 2: social group that has some quite unusual and extreme beliefs.
Speaker 2: So these might be religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, or kind
Speaker 2: of philosophical beliefs about meaning and life. They can sort
Speaker 2: of be these quasi religious groups that are quite secluded
Speaker 2: from the outside world. So we see these themes of
Speaker 2: seclusion and isolation, and there's usually some sort of authoritarian
Speaker 2: structure to them. So there's an individual person who is
Speaker 2: a leader, who can often be quite charismatic, but holds
Speaker 2: a lot of power.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels like the charismatic leader is really the
Speaker 4: foundation of a cult.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, often the person we hear a lot about
Speaker 2: when we hear about famous cults. So for example, Jonestown,
Speaker 2: the followers had this intense devotion to Jim Jones and
Speaker 2: this actually resulted in the mass suicide that happened at
Speaker 2: Jonestown because they were so devoted to what he instructed
Speaker 2: them to do.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, you see this across history, right,
Speaker 4: I know. I mean there's so many Netflix documentaries out there,
Speaker 4: and one that I think about is Wild Wild Country,
Speaker 4: and I don't know if you have you watched it.
Speaker 2: I haven't watched it, Yeah, but I've heard a little.
Speaker 4: About it about it, So it's based around this one
Speaker 4: spiritual leader, Barguan Osho is kind of his other name,
Speaker 4: and essentially it's like he started a movement in Indiana
Speaker 4: Ashram and then exploded. He started getting global interests. Then
Speaker 4: they moved to Oregon in the US, and then again
Speaker 4: it started to grow and grow and grow, and then
Speaker 4: to the point where you know, it's like I see
Speaker 4: this pattern where it tips over and it doesn't become
Speaker 4: it's start to good intentions. You know, it was initially
Speaker 4: about spirituality, self expression, you know, finding yourself, which sounds
Speaker 4: really lovely. But then I think and it's like, as
Speaker 4: it grows, it's like that leader gets more power, and
Speaker 4: it's amazing what happens when power and ego come together,
Speaker 4: Like it actually can be really destructive if those charismatic
Speaker 4: leaders don't have structures in place, you know, they don't
Speaker 4: have accountability, and it's such a massive responsibility and I
Speaker 4: get very.
Speaker 1: Like passionate about it. I'm not getting a bit emotional.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's something I'm really passionate about because
Speaker 4: you just see so many people that give away their
Speaker 4: power to someone that you know, like may not be
Speaker 4: using it for good intention.
Speaker 2: Takes advantage totally essentially, and takes advantage of other people's vulnerability,
Speaker 2: other people's desire for belonging and connection and the needs.
Speaker 1: That they have. Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: It's interesting how you talk about starting with good intentions,
Speaker 2: because I think there can be I mean, this is
Speaker 2: part of the lure of cults, right, Like, no one
Speaker 2: or at least not many people are going, Hey, that's
Speaker 2: a cult, I'm going to join it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, tonally like that.
Speaker 2: Maybe there are a few, but that's not kind of
Speaker 2: the common trajectory into a cult. It's often people seeing
Speaker 2: something that feels like it feels some need in them,
Speaker 2: it feels like it's got good intentions behind it, And
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe some of these cult leaders at points
Speaker 2: in time have had good intentions. I think others are
Speaker 2: probably quite narcissistic or have you know, traits of psychopathy
Speaker 2: and know how to manipulate people to sort of follow them.
Speaker 2: So we probably have spectrums of individuals there, but it's
Speaker 2: like no one sort of just jumps in, going yes,
Speaker 2: I know this is a cult, and I'm jumping two
Speaker 2: feet in. It's a slow progression where people are coerced
Speaker 2: into it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it does get me thinking around like why
Speaker 4: why people are vulnerable to these kind of groups, And
Speaker 4: I know you kind of started to speak to it
Speaker 4: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think as society has changed over the years, where
Speaker 2: we find meaning, connection, belonging, a kind of philosophical understanding
Speaker 2: around life, these things have changed. We've moved away from
Speaker 2: sort of traditional religion, which has historically provided those frameworks
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. Now we have more people
Speaker 2: who are not religious but are looking for that same
Speaker 2: feeling of connection, but also meaning and purpose. And I
Speaker 2: think this is where these structures and organizations and cult
Speaker 2: like groups fill a need. You know, we think about
Speaker 2: the psychology of belonging. Everyone wants to belong Everyone wants
Speaker 2: to feel part of something bigger than themselves, to feel
Speaker 2: connected to other people. And when these cult like groups
Speaker 2: are structured in the right ways, they can really feel
Speaker 2: like they feel those needs.
Speaker 4: It's so true, and I think it just comes back
Speaker 4: to like how when we start to externalize our power
Speaker 4: and we think, oh, me being part of this makes
Speaker 4: me feel good, makes me feel worthy, that's when like
Speaker 4: that's when things like that happen. But then it's the
Speaker 4: journey that we all go on, especially when you've been
Speaker 4: a part of organizations or groups like that is oh wait,
Speaker 4: that was always within me, Like I can access that
Speaker 4: without it, you know. I think it's great to be
Speaker 4: part of communities that are healthy, but when it's taken
Speaker 4: away your identity and your individuality, like that's something that
Speaker 4: we've got to inquire into.
Speaker 2: You're forced to conform totally part of the group, which
Speaker 2: is different to a community which sort of has open
Speaker 2: arms and says come, come enjoy, come share, come be
Speaker 2: part of what we're doing here and still be yourself totally,
Speaker 2: versus cult like groups that say, leave the parts of
Speaker 2: your identity that don't fit this structure behind and change
Speaker 2: them to fit how.
Speaker 1: We work totally.
Speaker 2: One of the key features that cult like groups will
Speaker 2: lean into is the isolation. So if you are part
Speaker 2: of this group, you essentially need to isolate yourself from
Speaker 2: other people who are not part of the group.
Speaker 4: Yeah, with that, is that because it's seen as a threat.
Speaker 1: That's mainly what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's a threat to people I guess
Speaker 2: questioning what's happening within the group and perhaps being provided
Speaker 2: with outside information or perspectives from other people that might
Speaker 2: challenge or question why they're actually part of this group
Speaker 2: and if it's actually that healthy for them if we
Speaker 2: isolate people. We see this in abusive relationships as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people often become isolated from others because it's a way
Speaker 2: to maintain power and control over someone.
Speaker 4: So why is it so hard to disengage from these
Speaker 4: kind of groups. Is that kind of where Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 4: comes into it.
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. Look, there's a lot of factors
Speaker 2: that keep people stuck in cults, right. Even sometimes when
Speaker 2: they have their own doubts that might arise, people will
Speaker 2: sort of still stay a part of these groups because,
Speaker 2: you know, if they've been cut off from their family
Speaker 2: and friends and they don't feel like they have people
Speaker 2: that can maybe help them get out, or they don't
Speaker 2: feel like they have a clear sense of what their
Speaker 2: life might look like if they leave, if the cult
Speaker 2: is what they've known for a period of time, there
Speaker 2: can be so many factors that stop them from being
Speaker 2: able to remove themselves. Plus often these groups have, you know,
Speaker 2: spread messages that create fear about leaving. So it's not
Speaker 2: just finding it hard to leave, but you know, if
Speaker 2: I leave, I might feel threatened, or I might feel
Speaker 2: like I'll be hunted down, or I might have messages
Speaker 2: that you know, demons will you know, get me or whatever.
Speaker 2: Whatever the messages are, they've often been you know, quite
Speaker 2: strongly ingrained into the psyche of the individual. Stockholm is
Speaker 2: a little bit different. We often think of Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 2: in the context where someone has very suddenly found themselves
Speaker 2: in a situation where they are a victim, and you know,
Speaker 2: Stockholm syndrome is thought more of actually as a survival
Speaker 2: mechanism to develop some sort of kind of bond or
Speaker 2: relation with the person who's taken them as captive. So
Speaker 2: it's a little different in terms of how it plays
Speaker 2: out to someone who may enter and find themselves stuck
Speaker 2: in a cult.
Speaker 1: Right, So does love bombing happening cults?
Speaker 2: Something similar to love bombing can happen. So if someone
Speaker 2: finds themselves in, you know, somewhat of a vulnerable situation,
Speaker 2: they find a group that feels like it offers some
Speaker 2: sort of meaning and connection for them, they may feel
Speaker 2: like they're being love bombed, or they might get this
Speaker 2: very strong and intense message of I want to say hope,
Speaker 2: you know, like there is a bigger purpose and a
Speaker 2: lot of kind of like mantras or messaging around that yes,
Speaker 2: and a bit of like you have been chosen. God
Speaker 2: has chosen you to come into the group, so feeling
Speaker 2: special to be a part of the group.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit different in terms of like
Speaker 2: love bombing in relationships is more about that individual person,
Speaker 2: like you are so amazing, you are so wonderful, you
Speaker 2: are so beautiful, You're the best person I've ever met.
Speaker 2: In cults, it's more like you are special. We see
Speaker 2: something in you, God sees something in you. You have
Speaker 2: been brought here for a reason. We have the answers.
Speaker 2: So it's but it's got that same flavor of it
Speaker 2: being very strong. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And it's interesting too because it kind of comes back
Speaker 4: to something you were talking about earlier around how you
Speaker 4: know why it can be harder to leave, right because
Speaker 4: the associations to it is like, wow, but this leader
Speaker 4: did help me with my you know, you know, my career,
Speaker 4: or helped me with my sense of purpose, Like there's
Speaker 4: still that loyalty, right, being like, oh, like you feel guilty, right,
Speaker 4: And that's why that I can imagine that would be
Speaker 4: part of it being harder to step away because of
Speaker 4: all of those factors and that fear of that being
Speaker 4: weaponized against you when you do want to leave. So
Speaker 4: it is really confusing.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And the reality is it's probably not a
Speaker 2: one hundred percent negative experience for the personally. Otherwise they
Speaker 2: wouldn't they wouldn't be a part of it. They would
Speaker 2: have they wouldn't have started or gone through that progression.
Speaker 2: There will have been moments at time where they will
Speaker 2: have felt seen and heard and valued and like they
Speaker 2: have that sense of connection and belonging that they're seeking. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the other thing that I'm thinking of here that's important
Speaker 2: to consider is a psychological phenomenon called groupthink.
Speaker 1: M never heard of it.
Speaker 2: So this kind of dates back to like the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 2: There were experiments that were done that exemplify how group
Speaker 2: think works, and I'll tell you about in a moment,
Speaker 2: But essentially, group think is this idea that when we
Speaker 2: are part of a group, we have a natural desire
Speaker 2: for harmony over conflict. And so what this means is
Speaker 2: that people will sometimes when they find themselves in a
Speaker 2: group situation, they might find themselves agreeing to things they
Speaker 2: wouldn't normally agree to. So the people around us and
Speaker 2: the decisions they make can actually influence the decisions we
Speaker 2: make or we agree to. So there's a famous study
Speaker 2: called the Ash Conformity Studies. So the researcher's surname is Ash.
Speaker 2: So if anyone's interested, ascch and this was done in
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties. And basically, a person goes in for
Speaker 2: an experiment and they think they're in a room with
Speaker 2: other people who are also doing the same experiment. Actually
Speaker 2: the other people are actors ah yes. And so what
Speaker 2: happens is there's a task to do, and it's a
Speaker 2: really basic simple task. It's actually advertised as a visual
Speaker 2: perception task, whereas it's actually an experiment about decision making.
Speaker 2: And so you're shown a picture that has different lines
Speaker 2: on it, four different lines, and all you have to
Speaker 2: do is say which of the two lines are actually
Speaker 2: the same length. So what they do is they do
Speaker 2: two rounds of this where all the actors give the
Speaker 2: correct answer, and then they ask the experimental participant last
Speaker 2: and they give the correct answer as well. On the
Speaker 2: third round, all the actors give the wrong answer. Now,
Speaker 2: this is a really obvious easy task because you can
Speaker 2: see there's four lines, two of them are the same length. Like,
Speaker 2: it's not hard, it's not hard, yeah, right, But all
Speaker 2: the actors give the wrong answer. And what they found
Speaker 2: is about seventy five percent of the time the participants
Speaker 2: who's going after all these actors will also give the
Speaker 2: wrong answer wow, because they doubt themselves and don't want
Speaker 2: to be the only person who's saying, hang on, guys,
Speaker 2: that doesn't look like what the answer is wow, Which
Speaker 2: is kind of scary to think about. Really, If like
Speaker 2: people are willing to do that in a very basic
Speaker 2: task where we're looking at sort of the length of
Speaker 2: lines a simple task, how likely are people to be
Speaker 2: to be conforming with what other people say on more
Speaker 2: complex and nuanced issues.
Speaker 4: So true, and it's interesting because it just gets me
Speaker 4: thinking more about like even you're talking about the doubt
Speaker 4: piece and how when we are in an environment where
Speaker 4: we are constantly starting to doubt ourselves, like that's a
Speaker 4: red flag, right being like, huh, really interesting, I'm feeling
Speaker 4: this kind of dissonance, like people saying one thing, but
Speaker 4: I am feeling something different. It's learning to lean into
Speaker 4: that voice more. Yes, as well, because there's so much
Speaker 4: wisdom in that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So with cults.
Speaker 4: These days, how does that show up in like an
Speaker 4: online space?
Speaker 2: Well, like many things, the online world provides the potential
Speaker 2: for things to be amplified in ways that just didn't
Speaker 2: exist before we had the internet. And so we do
Speaker 2: see that a lot of people, a lot of young
Speaker 2: people may find themselves radicalized or pulled into these high
Speaker 2: demand organizations or cult like groups, and they are sometimes
Speaker 2: very strategically identified. It could be through video games, it
Speaker 2: could be through social media, through online chats, and blogs
Speaker 2: where they interact with people they are identified as being
Speaker 2: vulnerable in some way, perhaps isolated or lonely, and they
Speaker 2: again find this sense of kind of belonging with people
Speaker 2: online who may provide answers to the things that they're
Speaker 2: questioning in their life. The way that algorithms work nowadays
Speaker 2: is that if you have some sort of skewed or
Speaker 2: extreme beliefs, the algorithm will feed you more information that
Speaker 2: aligns with those beliefs and views that you have. So
Speaker 2: it's really quite dangerous in that sense because you don't
Speaker 2: actually get the normal spectrum of beliefs presented to you
Speaker 2: on a particular topic. You get a very skewed portion,
Speaker 2: and that can very much influence the path that people
Speaker 2: go down.
Speaker 1: After the break.
Speaker 4: Doctor Anastasia is going to tell us what red flags
Speaker 4: we should look at for to make sure we're not
Speaker 4: being sucked into a cult. Stay with us, So, Anastasia,
Speaker 4: what are the red flags that we should be looking
Speaker 4: out for to.
Speaker 1: Spot a cult.
Speaker 2: This is a big topic.
Speaker 5: It's a big it's big and all's important, right, yeah, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 5: So I'm going to provide some key identifiers of cults.
Speaker 2: If you do feel like you're talking with people or
Speaker 2: a group and you've got some question marks or red
Speaker 2: flags in your mind, have a think about these following things.
Speaker 2: So the first one is a sense of authoritarian control.
Speaker 2: So this is essentially the idea that a cult hinges
Speaker 2: on encouraging maximum dependency on the cult. If you are
Speaker 2: talking with people who are part of a group and
Speaker 2: they are encouraging you to leave all facets of your
Speaker 2: life behind and have maximum dependency on them and the
Speaker 2: people in the group, you may have some red flags
Speaker 2: popping up in your mind. Ultimately, you know, people who
Speaker 2: are in a cult often feel incapable of living their
Speaker 2: lives outside of that cult. So it's this very all
Speaker 2: or nothing feel and the key word maximum dependency.
Speaker 4: It's interesting too because it's kind of like the world
Speaker 4: of right and wrong, being like, oh, it's wrong to
Speaker 4: still have these aspects of your life.
Speaker 1: It's right to be a part of.
Speaker 2: This yes, yes, yes, yes, you're right. Very clear, black
Speaker 2: and white, divisive sort of thinking exactly. So the second
Speaker 2: thing to be wary of is if people are encouraging
Speaker 2: you to cut contact with your family, with your friends,
Speaker 2: with your work, with just sort of people in your
Speaker 2: day to day life. This sense of isolation is a
Speaker 2: key factor that we see in a lot of cults
Speaker 2: that keep people stuck in cults, and it sort of
Speaker 2: removes them from being able to consider other perspectives or
Speaker 2: hear from their friends and family as to ideas and
Speaker 2: beliefs that might be contrary to what's being discussed in
Speaker 2: the cult. So big red flags if you're being encouraged
Speaker 2: to isolate yourself. The third thing I'd encourage people to
Speaker 2: look out for is a strong sense of peer pressure.
Speaker 2: So and cult like groups will often use rituals and
Speaker 2: kind of intense group activities to bond people, but this
Speaker 2: can come with a lot of peer pressure that you
Speaker 2: must participate in these activities. You must participate in these
Speaker 2: rituals to be a part of the group. So again
Speaker 2: we find these very extreme, black and white all or
Speaker 2: nothing approaches. One more thing for people to look out
Speaker 2: for is a culture around fear and shame. So this
Speaker 2: builds on the kind of peer pressure and the requirement
Speaker 2: to sort of give yourself to the group, and it
Speaker 2: comes with an added layer of if you don't do that,
Speaker 2: you will be shamed, and sometimes this actually involves sort
Speaker 2: of public shaming and public humiliation. We hear stories from
Speaker 2: cults where if a member sort of deviates from what
Speaker 2: the cult is preaching, that they are publicly shamed in
Speaker 2: front of the group. Public shaming and shaming is a
Speaker 2: great manipulative tool to make people conform horrible feeling shamed.
Speaker 2: So if you are talking with group members and there
Speaker 2: is this flavor of fear and shaming coming through, that
Speaker 2: would be a red flag as well.
Speaker 4: I think it's really great we're having this conversation around
Speaker 4: the red flags, and it's actually getting me thinking for
Speaker 4: anyone tuning in where they might be like, oh, tick tick,
Speaker 4: Like I'm seeing these red flags because I can imagine
Speaker 4: that can be a bit of a confronting space to
Speaker 4: be in. Right, So it's like, what could be a
Speaker 4: next step for people, because I know that sometimes there's
Speaker 4: so much shame and embarrassment and fear around what to
Speaker 4: do next, especially with a conversation around cults.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think the most important thing is what
Speaker 2: someone decides to do next, do it safely. Yeah. You know,
Speaker 2: different different sort of groups and cults will have different
Speaker 2: levels of risk attached to them, and some groups, some
Speaker 2: cults might feel easier to step away from in the
Speaker 2: sense that there feels like there's less risk than others,
Speaker 2: So ensure safety when taking the next steps. I would
Speaker 2: encourage people to try to reconnect, if possible again with safety,
Speaker 2: with the previous support systems that they had, So that
Speaker 2: might be family, that might be friends, the people that
Speaker 2: you know you may have cut off. It's surprising often
Speaker 2: if we do try and reach out to someone for
Speaker 2: some help and for some guidance, even if we've previously
Speaker 2: sort of cut them out of our life or taken
Speaker 2: some space and distance from them, those people can usually
Speaker 2: be quite willing to be there for us in a
Speaker 2: time of need. Definitely, so I would encourage people to
Speaker 2: consider that. Also, there are health professionals like psychologists who
Speaker 2: are specialists in working with people who've been in cults
Speaker 2: or perhaps in some sort of high demand organization. So
Speaker 2: seeking out someone who specifically understands how these groups work
Speaker 2: and why it is so difficult to step away from
Speaker 2: them sometimes is really important as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, Now, I know we unpacked a lot of
Speaker 4: red flags, but how do we actually protect ourselves from cults?
Speaker 2: This is good again, I'm going to come back to
Speaker 2: the support system. Support systems are so key when it
Speaker 2: comes to protecting ourselves. Stay connected to your support system.
Speaker 2: Be wary of anyone who's telling you to disengage from
Speaker 2: people in your life, because those strong connections and those
Speaker 2: existing connections you have in your life will be very
Speaker 2: protective for you. So stay connected to people. The second
Speaker 2: one is question things you know. Cults often thrive on
Speaker 2: a blind obedience, an obedience where we don't question anything,
Speaker 2: So be willing to question things. And if questioning things
Speaker 2: is shut down. There's a difference between you questioning things
Speaker 2: and people giving answers or providing answers, or being willing
Speaker 2: to engage in a discussion, versus shutting down your curiosity.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, be wary of anyone who wants to shut down
Speaker 2: your curiosity or shame you for being curious. Yeah'll treat
Speaker 2: you as if it's a bad thing for questioning things.
Speaker 2: We all question things. We want to understand things fully,
Speaker 2: so there's nothing wrong with that. If anyone's making you
Speaker 2: feel like that's a wrong choice or the wrong pathway,
Speaker 2: some red flags there. So that's a way to protect
Speaker 2: yourself by questioning things.
Speaker 4: After the break, an anonymous friend shares a dilemma about
Speaker 4: trying to help their friend who they think might be
Speaker 4: in a cult. Stay with us, Berb Hearb Barb.
Speaker 2: I'm having a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 4: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
Speaker 4: a question or dilemma from one of you our listeners, Anastasia,
Speaker 4: this one comes from someone anonymous.
Speaker 2: So here's the situation.
Speaker 6: I have a friend who's gotten really involved in this
Speaker 6: group that, to be honest, kind of feels like a cult,
Speaker 6: or at least something high control and intense. At first,
Speaker 6: it seemed like just another wellness or personal growth thing.
Speaker 1: That now she's.
Speaker 6: Constantly quoting their leader, cutting people off you disagree, and spending.
Speaker 2: All her time at their events.
Speaker 6: When I gently raised some concerns, she got super defensive
Speaker 6: and said, I just don't get it. I'm worried, but
Speaker 6: I also don't want to come off as judgmental or
Speaker 6: push her further into it. How do you support someone
Speaker 6: who might be into deep when they convinced they've finally
Speaker 6: found the truth?
Speaker 1: That's so hard, really hard.
Speaker 2: Anonymous. You are a good friend for caring about this
Speaker 2: person in your life. One of the things I'm going
Speaker 2: to suggest to you is where possible stay connected with
Speaker 2: this friend of yours. If we think about often what
Speaker 2: drives people into these high demand groups, it is some
Speaker 2: sense of connection and belonging and those groups providing meaning
Speaker 2: and purpose. By staying connected with your friend, you have
Speaker 2: the opportunity to provide her with connection and belonging outside
Speaker 2: of the group, and this will be really protective for
Speaker 2: her so that she doesn't hopefully end up deeper and
Speaker 2: deeper inside of this group. So I would say, where possible,
Speaker 2: stay connected. Your connection is going to help protect her
Speaker 2: in the long run. The other thing you could also
Speaker 2: consider doing is talking to a mental health professional about
Speaker 2: this situation so that they can advise and guide you
Speaker 2: around the specific circumstances that you and your friend find
Speaker 2: yourself in.
Speaker 4: Good luck, Anonymous, Anastasia, This one was a big episode.
Speaker 4: Can you give us the main takeaways from it?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: I can.
Speaker 2: First of all, cults and high demand organizations use many
Speaker 2: coercive and manipulative tactics to pull people in. Second, a
Speaker 2: drive for connection, meaning and belonging can result in people
Speaker 2: entering cult like groups. And lastly, protect yourself from cults
Speaker 2: by staying connected to your support system and being willing
Speaker 2: to question what you're told.
Speaker 4: If you have a burning question for us, there are
Speaker 4: a few ways to get in contact with us. Links
Speaker 4: are in the show notes.
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 4: Next week's episode is all about introversion, extraversion, and somewhere
Speaker 4: in between. We unpack social anxiety and help you better
Speaker 4: understand where you might sit on this scale, so tune
Speaker 4: into that.
Speaker 2: The senior producer of What Are You Happy? Is Charlie Blackman, the.
Speaker 4: Group executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is
Speaker 4: Jemma Donaho. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 4: Search at but Are You Happy Pod to find us,
Speaker 4: I'm a Shany Dante.
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of
Speaker 2: people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or
Speaker 2: Beyond Blue if you're needing more immediate support.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next
Speaker 2: Time, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
Speaker 2: and waters that this podcast is recorded on