WEBVTT - Are Swifties In A Cult? Fandom Psychology Explained 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.520 You're listening to I'm onm with mea podcast. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.319 Are Taylor Swift's fans yield Swifties in a cult? Well, 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.120 let's go ahead and have a little conversation about it. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:16.280 What is a cult? 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.079 And do any of the Swifty behaviors look like cult behavior? 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:20.759 A few things to keep in mind here while we're 0:00:20.759 --> 0:00:22.520 going through this, and this is an article from very 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.480 Well Mind, So good stuff. Number one, cults demand intense 0:00:26.599 --> 0:00:30.520 loyalty to a strict belief system or charismatic leader. People 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.199 may join cults because they desire a sense of belonging, guidance, 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.440 or purpose, even though there are high personal costs. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:38.360 Keep that in mind. 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.000 For mother Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.000 Welcome to But Are You Happy? 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.440 The podcast for people who journal about their feelings and 0:00:49.480 --> 0:00:50.600 then go to their therapist. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.920 And I'm doctor Anastatia Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about 0:00:54.960 --> 0:01:00.000 happiness and mental health. Now you've probably heard terms like cult, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.920 classic or cult following thrown around, right. Maybe you've even 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.960 found yourself in a group that feels a little culty, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.120 like a hardcore fandom or super intense community. 0:01:10.320 --> 0:01:13.600 But what actually separates these groups from an actual traditional 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:15.160 cult like where's the line? 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:19.360 Today, we're diving into that question, exploring what cults really 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.360 are and why it can be surprisingly easy to get 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.440 pulled into a high demand group because at the core 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.400 of it all, it often comes down to one simple thing. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.600 Let's get into it. So the word cult gets thrown 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.160 around a lot in today's world. You hear things like 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.960 cult like products, cult like culture, cult like following, and 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.280 you know, it actually gets me thinking about Taylor Swift. 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.600 You know, everyone loves her, obsessed with her. I feel 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.360 like she's very talented, and it gets me thinking more 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.680 specifically around Swifties, like, are the Swifties in a cult? 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.160 We're going there, We are going. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:57.240 To starting straight there. 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:57.600 We are. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:05.080 Well, look, there's some features of Swifties that are similar 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.360 to people who are perhaps part of cults. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:07.520 Right. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.760 I wouldn't say that the Swifties are in a cult. Yeah, 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:11.480 but it's as you say, like that sort of like 0:02:11.519 --> 0:02:13.840 cult like following. We use that. We use the cult, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.680 the word cult in so many different ways, which speaks 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.600 to a lot of things that we'll get into. But look, 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.240 there are some features that resemble cults. Right, So Swifties 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.600 love Taylor Swift they see her as the goddess, the queen, 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.280 the be all and end all. They're involved in rituals 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:36.360 like the friendship bracelets, even like dressing like her, and 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.240 you know, buying all the merch buying all the records 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:45.040 and everything. So there's a real devotion from Swifties to 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:50.880 their queen, Taylor Swift. So from that lens, we see 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.880 similarities with cults right where there is usually a leader 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.640 or a figure that people are really devoted to. The 0:02:56.640 --> 0:03:01.680 difference here is that Swifties hopefully aren't being forced into 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.360 following Taylor Swift. You know, they're doing so voluntary. They're 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.560 not feeling like they're going to be punished or there's 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.800 going to be some sort of negative consequence for them 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:15.600 if they decide to move away from the Swifty fandom 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.320 and decide that they don't want to be a Swifty anymore. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.160 Yeah, it's interesting too because it gets me reflecting around, 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:22.239 Oh am I swifty? 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:23.240 Like, I don't really know. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.320 I don't think, I don't I'm not a swifty. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.519 I think if you're a Swifty, you wouldn't be questioning 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:29.200 if you're a swifty. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.000 Yeah, and I don't think i'd be getting defensive with 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.079 this conversation, you know what I mean, because I feel 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.000 like just I mean, I see it all the time 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.000 in my socials, Like you know, I have a lot 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.280 of women on my Instagram, so it's just people are 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.960 obsessed with her, and for me, it's it's quite beautiful 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.000 to witness being like, oh wow, everyone gets so excited, 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.040 Like I know when her latest album came up, the 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.120 Life of a show Girl and how people had listening 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.000 parties and we're getting really excited about the countdown for 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:54.880 the launch, and I'm like. 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:55.240 Oh wow. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.080 I appreciate how people get really excited about it, but 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.440 there is also an element for me where. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.280 I feel a little bit excluded. 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.320 Because I'm like, oh, like I want to be a 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.400 part of it, because it's like that fomo element. But 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.200 also I'm like, oh, but then I'm just trying to 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.240 become something I'm not. I'm not going to listen to 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:12.680 her whole album straight away. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.000 There's definitely that feeling of all or nothing, right because 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.680 I have a similar feeling like I can appreciate Taylor 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.760 Swift and her music amazing story. Yes, yeah, I wouldn't 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.159 call myself a Swifty. I'm not the first to listen 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.560 to the new record or go to a listening party. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:27.800 Yah. 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.560 And actually there's a part of me that almost wants 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.760 to push back against swift It's like, no, well, I'm 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:35.400 not going to do that, or I don't want to 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.120 be a part of that, because it feels like if 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.800 you're in it, you have to be fully in it, 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.520 you have to be fully committed, you have to know 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.640 all the songs, the meaning behind every lyric. Ye. And 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.279 I don't know that I want to commit that much. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.160 Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it. 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.919 And it's interesting like when I know, we're sort of 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.200 kind of loosely talking about this in the context of cults, right, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.760 But the difference with the cult, as we're saying, is 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.560 that you won't have this sort of negative pushback or 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.200 any criticism or like you know, you know, you're not 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.640 being forced to kind of follow along. But I will 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.120 say that what we do see with swifties is they 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.840 are they can be quite critical of those who are 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.120 not on the Tailor Swift bandwagon, and there have sort 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.560 of been these quite tense exchanges we see them online. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:24.480 If people are not really kind of a big Tailor 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.719 Swift fan, that swifties run to Taylor Swift's defense, and 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.600 so it does then make it feel like it's hard 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.520 to sit in the middle ground of like oh yeah, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.800 like you know, her music's great, you've sort of got 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.400 to be in or out. Yeah, and that's maybe where 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.360 we get more of those like cult like flavors coming through. 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:41.880 Yeah, totally. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.120 So it's interesting because when it comes to being a 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.360 swifty right, like, it feels like you need to you know, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.000 buy buy the vinyl or buy the merch to feel 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.960 like you're part of it. So is that kind of 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.520 an element of something that is cult like, like you 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:58.640 have to buy. 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.200 More to feel more a sense of belonging. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.919 Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I yes, the 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.520 difference between having to sort of purchase things and sort 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.160 of give money forward to feel like you're part of 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.360 something adds a different element as opposed to being part 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.440 of a group where you feel like you can belong 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.040 and have that sense of connection on a broader level 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.039 without needing to spend money to be a part of 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.520 that group. So that sort of capitalist element, does you know, 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.599 Taylor Swift has received some criticism for this that you know, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.120 it's not just about the kind of connection and community 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.960 she creates, But there is really this sort of capitalist 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.040 lens there as well that's important to consider. I still 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.119 don't know that that necessarily means it's a cult, yes, 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.080 but it does add another layer where I guess if 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.599 we're asking people to buy into something, there's going to 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.719 be people who can't afford that, and it might mean 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.520 that they then feel excluded. And look, Taylor Swift is 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.920 not the first person to kind of have this celebrity 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.760 status with this fandom behind her. You know, we saw 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.039 in the days of Justin Bieber the believer. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.960 Yes, are you a believer? 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.240 I'm not. I'm not a Swift ear of believer. And 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:15.360 I think like the Beatles had Beatlemania, And actually I 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.440 was doing like I was doing research into sort of 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.679 like big celebrities or bands that have had these big 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.600 sort of followings and not just followings in the sense 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.560 that you know, people really like to listen to their music, 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.400 but really kind of get behind them with this sense 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.920 of fandom. And I was doing research and it said, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.640 you know, back even to the days of like classical music. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.640 So Richard Wagner wrote the Ring Cycles and apparently he 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.000 as you do dedicated a shrine to himself, like when 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.520 he died, and the people actually go to the shrine 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.960 and like listen to his music and engage with his music. 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.160 But it's just like real commitment to it. That's quite 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:58.080 interesting when you see people go to quite extreme lengths 0:07:58.120 --> 0:07:59.320 to be a part of something. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.560 And it's interesting because I feel like a lot of 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:03.840 the things that we've spoken about in terms of cults 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.120 have been in a more or non traditional way. 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.640 But what actually is a cult. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.280 There's no actual, one single definition of what a cult is. 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.320 But I was doing a bit of research and there 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.040 are some common themes to think about how we would 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.640 describe a cult like group. So occult is usually a 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.640 social group that has some quite unusual and extreme beliefs. 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.480 So these might be religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, or kind 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:35.000 of philosophical beliefs about meaning and life. They can sort 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.399 of be these quasi religious groups that are quite secluded 0:08:39.439 --> 0:08:42.000 from the outside world. So we see these themes of 0:08:42.079 --> 0:08:47.199 seclusion and isolation, and there's usually some sort of authoritarian 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.920 structure to them. So there's an individual person who is 0:08:51.959 --> 0:08:56.199 a leader, who can often be quite charismatic, but holds 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:57.959 a lot of power. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.120 Yeah, it feels like the charismatic leader is really the 0:09:01.199 --> 0:09:03.559 foundation of a cult. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.759 Right, Yes, often the person we hear a lot about 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.959 when we hear about famous cults. So for example, Jonestown, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.160 the followers had this intense devotion to Jim Jones and 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.040 this actually resulted in the mass suicide that happened at 0:09:19.119 --> 0:09:22.479 Jonestown because they were so devoted to what he instructed 0:09:22.479 --> 0:09:22.920 them to do. 0:09:23.199 --> 0:09:26.240 Well, yeah, I mean, you see this across history, right, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.439 I know. I mean there's so many Netflix documentaries out there, 0:09:29.479 --> 0:09:32.759 and one that I think about is Wild Wild Country, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:34.720 and I don't know if you have you watched it. 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.160 I haven't watched it, Yeah, but I've heard a little. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.280 About it about it, So it's based around this one 0:09:39.319 --> 0:09:43.839 spiritual leader, Barguan Osho is kind of his other name, 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.000 and essentially it's like he started a movement in Indiana 0:09:48.079 --> 0:09:51.439 Ashram and then exploded. He started getting global interests. Then 0:09:51.439 --> 0:09:54.640 they moved to Oregon in the US, and then again 0:09:54.719 --> 0:09:57.639 it started to grow and grow and grow, and then 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.559 to the point where you know, it's like I see 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.719 this pattern where it tips over and it doesn't become 0:10:04.119 --> 0:10:06.679 it's start to good intentions. You know, it was initially 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.599 about spirituality, self expression, you know, finding yourself, which sounds 0:10:10.599 --> 0:10:14.439 really lovely. But then I think and it's like, as 0:10:14.479 --> 0:10:17.160 it grows, it's like that leader gets more power, and 0:10:17.199 --> 0:10:21.240 it's amazing what happens when power and ego come together, 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.319 Like it actually can be really destructive if those charismatic 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:29.160 leaders don't have structures in place, you know, they don't 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.959 have accountability, and it's such a massive responsibility and I 0:10:32.959 --> 0:10:33.719 get very. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.959 Like passionate about it. I'm not getting a bit emotional. 0:10:37.199 --> 0:10:39.599 Yeah, I think it's something I'm really passionate about because 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.719 you just see so many people that give away their 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.720 power to someone that you know, like may not be 0:10:46.839 --> 0:10:47.879 using it for good intention. 0:10:48.079 --> 0:10:52.639 Takes advantage totally essentially, and takes advantage of other people's vulnerability, 0:10:53.199 --> 0:10:56.879 other people's desire for belonging and connection and the needs. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.439 That they have. Yeah, yeah, totally. 0:10:59.239 --> 0:11:03.359 It's interesting how you talk about starting with good intentions, 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.080 because I think there can be I mean, this is 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:12.400 part of the lure of cults, right, Like, no one 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.160 or at least not many people are going, Hey, that's 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.559 a cult, I'm going to join it. 0:11:16.719 --> 0:11:19.160 Yeah, tonally like that. 0:11:19.359 --> 0:11:21.080 Maybe there are a few, but that's not kind of 0:11:21.079 --> 0:11:24.960 the common trajectory into a cult. It's often people seeing 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.719 something that feels like it feels some need in them, 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.120 it feels like it's got good intentions behind it, And 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.080 who knows, maybe some of these cult leaders at points 0:11:35.119 --> 0:11:37.800 in time have had good intentions. I think others are 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.439 probably quite narcissistic or have you know, traits of psychopathy 0:11:43.119 --> 0:11:45.759 and know how to manipulate people to sort of follow them. 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.679 So we probably have spectrums of individuals there, but it's 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.520 like no one sort of just jumps in, going yes, 0:11:52.599 --> 0:11:54.559 I know this is a cult, and I'm jumping two 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:59.079 feet in. It's a slow progression where people are coerced 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:00.360 into it. 0:12:00.719 --> 0:12:03.879 Yeah, And it does get me thinking around like why 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.400 why people are vulnerable to these kind of groups, And 0:12:07.439 --> 0:12:08.760 I know you kind of started to speak to it 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:09.279 a little bit. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:17.880 I think as society has changed over the years, where 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:25.719 we find meaning, connection, belonging, a kind of philosophical understanding 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:31.319 around life, these things have changed. We've moved away from 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:36.639 sort of traditional religion, which has historically provided those frameworks 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.080 for a lot of people. Now we have more people 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.359 who are not religious but are looking for that same 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.840 feeling of connection, but also meaning and purpose. And I 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.920 think this is where these structures and organizations and cult 0:12:52.079 --> 0:12:56.479 like groups fill a need. You know, we think about 0:12:56.479 --> 0:13:00.479 the psychology of belonging. Everyone wants to belong Everyone wants 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.399 to feel part of something bigger than themselves, to feel 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:08.679 connected to other people. And when these cult like groups 0:13:08.719 --> 0:13:12.600 are structured in the right ways, they can really feel 0:13:13.199 --> 0:13:14.600 like they feel those needs. 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:16.920 It's so true, and I think it just comes back 0:13:16.959 --> 0:13:22.119 to like how when we start to externalize our power 0:13:22.119 --> 0:13:25.119 and we think, oh, me being part of this makes 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.720 me feel good, makes me feel worthy, that's when like 0:13:30.239 --> 0:13:32.760 that's when things like that happen. But then it's the 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.759 journey that we all go on, especially when you've been 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.319 a part of organizations or groups like that is oh wait, 0:13:39.359 --> 0:13:42.079 that was always within me, Like I can access that 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.400 without it, you know. I think it's great to be 0:13:44.439 --> 0:13:47.079 part of communities that are healthy, but when it's taken 0:13:47.119 --> 0:13:52.599 away your identity and your individuality, like that's something that 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.360 we've got to inquire into. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.160 You're forced to conform totally part of the group, which 0:13:58.199 --> 0:14:02.079 is different to a community which sort of has open 0:14:02.239 --> 0:14:05.640 arms and says come, come enjoy, come share, come be 0:14:05.719 --> 0:14:09.239 part of what we're doing here and still be yourself totally, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.319 versus cult like groups that say, leave the parts of 0:14:12.359 --> 0:14:16.199 your identity that don't fit this structure behind and change 0:14:16.239 --> 0:14:17.999 them to fit how. 0:14:17.839 --> 0:14:19.119 We work totally. 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.639 One of the key features that cult like groups will 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.040 lean into is the isolation. So if you are part 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.880 of this group, you essentially need to isolate yourself from 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.040 other people who are not part of the group. 0:14:33.239 --> 0:14:36.800 Yeah, with that, is that because it's seen as a threat. 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:38.520 That's mainly what it is. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.680 Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's a threat to people I guess 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.800 questioning what's happening within the group and perhaps being provided 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.800 with outside information or perspectives from other people that might 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.600 challenge or question why they're actually part of this group 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.520 and if it's actually that healthy for them if we 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.080 isolate people. We see this in abusive relationships as well. Yeah, 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.160 people often become isolated from others because it's a way 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.400 to maintain power and control over someone. 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.320 So why is it so hard to disengage from these 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.120 kind of groups. Is that kind of where Stockholm syndrome 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:14.960 comes into it. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.640 That's an interesting question. Look, there's a lot of factors 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.440 that keep people stuck in cults, right. Even sometimes when 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:27.800 they have their own doubts that might arise, people will 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.160 sort of still stay a part of these groups because, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.999 you know, if they've been cut off from their family 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.280 and friends and they don't feel like they have people 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.080 that can maybe help them get out, or they don't 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.040 feel like they have a clear sense of what their 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.200 life might look like if they leave, if the cult 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.120 is what they've known for a period of time, there 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.920 can be so many factors that stop them from being 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:55.280 able to remove themselves. Plus often these groups have, you know, 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:59.560 spread messages that create fear about leaving. So it's not 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.080 just finding it hard to leave, but you know, if 0:16:02.119 --> 0:16:04.880 I leave, I might feel threatened, or I might feel 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.280 like I'll be hunted down, or I might have messages 0:16:07.359 --> 0:16:10.479 that you know, demons will you know, get me or whatever. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.120 Whatever the messages are, they've often been you know, quite 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:19.479 strongly ingrained into the psyche of the individual. Stockholm is 0:16:19.479 --> 0:16:23.040 a little bit different. We often think of Stockholm syndrome 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.200 in the context where someone has very suddenly found themselves 0:16:27.239 --> 0:16:32.040 in a situation where they are a victim, and you know, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.920 Stockholm syndrome is thought more of actually as a survival 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.640 mechanism to develop some sort of kind of bond or 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:45.160 relation with the person who's taken them as captive. So 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.280 it's a little different in terms of how it plays 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.320 out to someone who may enter and find themselves stuck 0:16:50.359 --> 0:16:50.920 in a cult. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.639 Right, So does love bombing happening cults? 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.720 Something similar to love bombing can happen. So if someone 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.200 finds themselves in, you know, somewhat of a vulnerable situation, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.600 they find a group that feels like it offers some 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:11.280 sort of meaning and connection for them, they may feel 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.399 like they're being love bombed, or they might get this 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.560 very strong and intense message of I want to say hope, 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.679 you know, like there is a bigger purpose and a 0:17:21.679 --> 0:17:26.040 lot of kind of like mantras or messaging around that yes, 0:17:26.639 --> 0:17:29.080 and a bit of like you have been chosen. God 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.720 has chosen you to come into the group, so feeling 0:17:31.879 --> 0:17:33.600 special to be a part of the group. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:33.960 Yes. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.519 So it's a little bit different in terms of like 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.600 love bombing in relationships is more about that individual person, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.080 like you are so amazing, you are so wonderful, you 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.160 are so beautiful, You're the best person I've ever met. 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.000 In cults, it's more like you are special. We see 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.159 something in you, God sees something in you. You have 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.800 been brought here for a reason. We have the answers. 0:17:53.879 --> 0:17:57.879 So it's but it's got that same flavor of it 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.280 being very strong. Yeah. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.840 And it's interesting too because it kind of comes back 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.239 to something you were talking about earlier around how you 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.439 know why it can be harder to leave, right because 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.080 the associations to it is like, wow, but this leader 0:18:13.159 --> 0:18:17.240 did help me with my you know, you know, my career, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.320 or helped me with my sense of purpose, Like there's 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:25.119 still that loyalty, right, being like, oh, like you feel guilty, right, 0:18:25.159 --> 0:18:26.999 And that's why that I can imagine that would be 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.439 part of it being harder to step away because of 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.000 all of those factors and that fear of that being 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.159 weaponized against you when you do want to leave. So 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:36.959 it is really confusing. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.239 Yes, Yes, And the reality is it's probably not a 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.759 one hundred percent negative experience for the personally. Otherwise they 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.720 wouldn't they wouldn't be a part of it. They would 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.879 have they wouldn't have started or gone through that progression. 0:18:49.919 --> 0:18:52.680 There will have been moments at time where they will 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.160 have felt seen and heard and valued and like they 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.240 have that sense of connection and belonging that they're seeking. Yeah, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.200 the other thing that I'm thinking of here that's important 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.639 to consider is a psychological phenomenon called groupthink. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:07.879 M never heard of it. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.879 So this kind of dates back to like the nineteen fifties. 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.560 There were experiments that were done that exemplify how group 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.200 think works, and I'll tell you about in a moment, 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.239 But essentially, group think is this idea that when we 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.720 are part of a group, we have a natural desire 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:32.520 for harmony over conflict. And so what this means is 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.520 that people will sometimes when they find themselves in a 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:40.359 group situation, they might find themselves agreeing to things they 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:45.519 wouldn't normally agree to. So the people around us and 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.520 the decisions they make can actually influence the decisions we 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.919 make or we agree to. So there's a famous study 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:58.480 called the Ash Conformity Studies. So the researcher's surname is Ash. 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.840 So if anyone's interested, ascch and this was done in 0:20:01.879 --> 0:20:04.719 the nineteen fifties. And basically, a person goes in for 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.239 an experiment and they think they're in a room with 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.639 other people who are also doing the same experiment. Actually 0:20:10.639 --> 0:20:14.520 the other people are actors ah yes. And so what 0:20:14.639 --> 0:20:17.800 happens is there's a task to do, and it's a 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.280 really basic simple task. It's actually advertised as a visual 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.280 perception task, whereas it's actually an experiment about decision making. 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.800 And so you're shown a picture that has different lines 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.959 on it, four different lines, and all you have to 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.000 do is say which of the two lines are actually 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.159 the same length. So what they do is they do 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.439 two rounds of this where all the actors give the 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:45.320 correct answer, and then they ask the experimental participant last 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.359 and they give the correct answer as well. On the 0:20:47.399 --> 0:20:52.520 third round, all the actors give the wrong answer. Now, 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.799 this is a really obvious easy task because you can 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.159 see there's four lines, two of them are the same length. Like, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.480 it's not hard, it's not hard, yeah, right, But all 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.840 the actors give the wrong answer. And what they found 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.199 is about seventy five percent of the time the participants 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.880 who's going after all these actors will also give the 0:21:09.919 --> 0:21:14.000 wrong answer wow, because they doubt themselves and don't want 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.359 to be the only person who's saying, hang on, guys, 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.959