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Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm onm with mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Are Taylor Swift's fans yield Swifties in a cult? Well,

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and have a little conversation about it.

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Speaker 2: What is a cult?

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Speaker 3: And do any of the Swifty behaviors look like cult behavior?

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Speaker 3: A few things to keep in mind here while we're

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Speaker 3: going through this, and this is an article from very

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Speaker 3: Well Mind, So good stuff. Number one, cults demand intense

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Speaker 3: loyalty to a strict belief system or charismatic leader. People

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Speaker 3: may join cults because they desire a sense of belonging, guidance,

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Speaker 3: or purpose, even though there are high personal costs.

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Speaker 2: Keep that in mind.

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Speaker 4: For mother Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to But Are You Happy?

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Speaker 4: The podcast for people who journal about their feelings and

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Speaker 4: then go to their therapist.

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Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastatia Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about

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Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Now you've probably heard terms like cult,

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Speaker 2: classic or cult following thrown around, right. Maybe you've even

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Speaker 2: found yourself in a group that feels a little culty,

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Speaker 2: like a hardcore fandom or super intense community.

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Speaker 4: But what actually separates these groups from an actual traditional

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Speaker 4: cult like where's the line?

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Speaker 2: Today, we're diving into that question, exploring what cults really

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Speaker 2: are and why it can be surprisingly easy to get

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Speaker 2: pulled into a high demand group because at the core

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Speaker 2: of it all, it often comes down to one simple thing.

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Speaker 4: Let's get into it. So the word cult gets thrown

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Speaker 4: around a lot in today's world. You hear things like

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Speaker 4: cult like products, cult like culture, cult like following, and

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Speaker 4: you know, it actually gets me thinking about Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 4: You know, everyone loves her, obsessed with her. I feel

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Speaker 4: like she's very talented, and it gets me thinking more

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Speaker 4: specifically around Swifties, like, are the Swifties in a cult?

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Speaker 1: We're going there, We are going.

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Speaker 2: To starting straight there.

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Speaker 4: We are.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, there's some features of Swifties that are similar

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Speaker 2: to people who are perhaps part of cults.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that the Swifties are in a cult. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but it's as you say, like that sort of like

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Speaker 2: cult like following. We use that. We use the cult,

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Speaker 2: the word cult in so many different ways, which speaks

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Speaker 2: to a lot of things that we'll get into. But look,

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Speaker 2: there are some features that resemble cults. Right, So Swifties

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Speaker 2: love Taylor Swift they see her as the goddess, the queen,

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Speaker 2: the be all and end all. They're involved in rituals

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Speaker 2: like the friendship bracelets, even like dressing like her, and

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Speaker 2: you know, buying all the merch buying all the records

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Speaker 2: and everything. So there's a real devotion from Swifties to

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Speaker 2: their queen, Taylor Swift. So from that lens, we see

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Speaker 2: similarities with cults right where there is usually a leader

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Speaker 2: or a figure that people are really devoted to. The

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Speaker 2: difference here is that Swifties hopefully aren't being forced into

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Speaker 2: following Taylor Swift. You know, they're doing so voluntary. They're

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Speaker 2: not feeling like they're going to be punished or there's

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Speaker 2: going to be some sort of negative consequence for them

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Speaker 2: if they decide to move away from the Swifty fandom

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Speaker 2: and decide that they don't want to be a Swifty anymore.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting too because it gets me reflecting around,

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Speaker 4: Oh am I swifty?

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Speaker 1: Like, I don't really know.

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Speaker 4: I don't think, I don't I'm not a swifty.

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Speaker 2: I think if you're a Swifty, you wouldn't be questioning

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Speaker 2: if you're a swifty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't think i'd be getting defensive with

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Speaker 4: this conversation, you know what I mean, because I feel

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Speaker 4: like just I mean, I see it all the time

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Speaker 4: in my socials, Like you know, I have a lot

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Speaker 4: of women on my Instagram, so it's just people are

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Speaker 4: obsessed with her, and for me, it's it's quite beautiful

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Speaker 4: to witness being like, oh wow, everyone gets so excited,

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Speaker 4: Like I know when her latest album came up, the

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Speaker 4: Life of a show Girl and how people had listening

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Speaker 4: parties and we're getting really excited about the countdown for

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Speaker 4: the launch, and I'm like.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate how people get really excited about it, but

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Speaker 4: there is also an element for me where.

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Speaker 1: I feel a little bit excluded.

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Speaker 4: Because I'm like, oh, like I want to be a

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Speaker 4: part of it, because it's like that fomo element. But

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Speaker 4: also I'm like, oh, but then I'm just trying to

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Speaker 4: become something I'm not. I'm not going to listen to

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Speaker 4: her whole album straight away.

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Speaker 2: There's definitely that feeling of all or nothing, right because

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Speaker 2: I have a similar feeling like I can appreciate Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift and her music amazing story. Yes, yeah, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: call myself a Swifty. I'm not the first to listen

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Speaker 2: to the new record or go to a listening party.

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Speaker 4: Yah.

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Speaker 2: And actually there's a part of me that almost wants

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Speaker 2: to push back against swift It's like, no, well, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to do that, or I don't want to

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Speaker 2: be a part of that, because it feels like if

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Speaker 2: you're in it, you have to be fully in it,

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Speaker 2: you have to be fully committed, you have to know

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Speaker 2: all the songs, the meaning behind every lyric. Ye. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I want to commit that much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting like when I know, we're sort of

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Speaker 2: kind of loosely talking about this in the context of cults, right,

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Speaker 2: But the difference with the cult, as we're saying, is

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Speaker 2: that you won't have this sort of negative pushback or

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Speaker 2: any criticism or like you know, you know, you're not

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Speaker 2: being forced to kind of follow along. But I will

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Speaker 2: say that what we do see with swifties is they

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Speaker 2: are they can be quite critical of those who are

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Speaker 2: not on the Tailor Swift bandwagon, and there have sort

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Speaker 2: of been these quite tense exchanges we see them online.

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Speaker 2: If people are not really kind of a big Tailor

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Speaker 2: Swift fan, that swifties run to Taylor Swift's defense, and

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Speaker 2: so it does then make it feel like it's hard

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Speaker 2: to sit in the middle ground of like oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: like you know, her music's great, you've sort of got

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Speaker 2: to be in or out. Yeah, and that's maybe where

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Speaker 2: we get more of those like cult like flavors coming through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: So it's interesting because when it comes to being a

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Speaker 4: swifty right, like, it feels like you need to you know,

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Speaker 4: buy buy the vinyl or buy the merch to feel

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Speaker 4: like you're part of it. So is that kind of

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Speaker 4: an element of something that is cult like, like you

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Speaker 4: have to buy.

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Speaker 1: More to feel more a sense of belonging.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I yes, the

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Speaker 2: difference between having to sort of purchase things and sort

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Speaker 2: of give money forward to feel like you're part of

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Speaker 2: something adds a different element as opposed to being part

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Speaker 2: of a group where you feel like you can belong

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Speaker 2: and have that sense of connection on a broader level

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Speaker 2: without needing to spend money to be a part of

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Speaker 2: that group. So that sort of capitalist element, does you know,

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift has received some criticism for this that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not just about the kind of connection and community

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Speaker 2: she creates, But there is really this sort of capitalist

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Speaker 2: lens there as well that's important to consider. I still

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Speaker 2: don't know that that necessarily means it's a cult, yes,

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Speaker 2: but it does add another layer where I guess if

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Speaker 2: we're asking people to buy into something, there's going to

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Speaker 2: be people who can't afford that, and it might mean

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Speaker 2: that they then feel excluded. And look, Taylor Swift is

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Speaker 2: not the first person to kind of have this celebrity

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Speaker 2: status with this fandom behind her. You know, we saw

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Speaker 2: in the days of Justin Bieber the believer.

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Speaker 1: Yes, are you a believer?

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Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not a Swift ear of believer. And

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Speaker 2: I think like the Beatles had Beatlemania, And actually I

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Speaker 2: was doing like I was doing research into sort of

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Speaker 2: like big celebrities or bands that have had these big

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Speaker 2: sort of followings and not just followings in the sense

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Speaker 2: that you know, people really like to listen to their music,

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Speaker 2: but really kind of get behind them with this sense

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Speaker 2: of fandom. And I was doing research and it said,

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Speaker 2: you know, back even to the days of like classical music.

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Speaker 2: So Richard Wagner wrote the Ring Cycles and apparently he

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Speaker 2: as you do dedicated a shrine to himself, like when

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Speaker 2: he died, and the people actually go to the shrine

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Speaker 2: and like listen to his music and engage with his music.

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Speaker 2: But it's just like real commitment to it. That's quite

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Speaker 2: interesting when you see people go to quite extreme lengths

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Speaker 2: to be a part of something.

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting because I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 4: the things that we've spoken about in terms of cults

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Speaker 4: have been in a more or non traditional way.

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Speaker 1: But what actually is a cult.

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Speaker 2: There's no actual, one single definition of what a cult is.

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Speaker 2: But I was doing a bit of research and there

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Speaker 2: are some common themes to think about how we would

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Speaker 2: describe a cult like group. So occult is usually a

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Speaker 2: social group that has some quite unusual and extreme beliefs.

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Speaker 2: So these might be religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, or kind

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Speaker 2: of philosophical beliefs about meaning and life. They can sort

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Speaker 2: of be these quasi religious groups that are quite secluded

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Speaker 2: from the outside world. So we see these themes of

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Speaker 2: seclusion and isolation, and there's usually some sort of authoritarian

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Speaker 2: structure to them. So there's an individual person who is

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Speaker 2: a leader, who can often be quite charismatic, but holds

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Speaker 2: a lot of power.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels like the charismatic leader is really the

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Speaker 4: foundation of a cult.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, often the person we hear a lot about

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Speaker 2: when we hear about famous cults. So for example, Jonestown,

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Speaker 2: the followers had this intense devotion to Jim Jones and

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Speaker 2: this actually resulted in the mass suicide that happened at

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Speaker 2: Jonestown because they were so devoted to what he instructed

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Speaker 2: them to do.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, you see this across history, right,

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Speaker 4: I know. I mean there's so many Netflix documentaries out there,

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Speaker 4: and one that I think about is Wild Wild Country,

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Speaker 4: and I don't know if you have you watched it.

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Speaker 2: I haven't watched it, Yeah, but I've heard a little.

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Speaker 4: About it about it, So it's based around this one

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Speaker 4: spiritual leader, Barguan Osho is kind of his other name,

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Speaker 4: and essentially it's like he started a movement in Indiana

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Speaker 4: Ashram and then exploded. He started getting global interests. Then

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Speaker 4: they moved to Oregon in the US, and then again

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Speaker 4: it started to grow and grow and grow, and then

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Speaker 4: to the point where you know, it's like I see

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Speaker 4: this pattern where it tips over and it doesn't become

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Speaker 4: it's start to good intentions. You know, it was initially

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Speaker 4: about spirituality, self expression, you know, finding yourself, which sounds

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Speaker 4: really lovely. But then I think and it's like, as

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Speaker 4: it grows, it's like that leader gets more power, and

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Speaker 4: it's amazing what happens when power and ego come together,

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Speaker 4: Like it actually can be really destructive if those charismatic

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Speaker 4: leaders don't have structures in place, you know, they don't

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Speaker 4: have accountability, and it's such a massive responsibility and I

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Speaker 4: get very.

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Speaker 1: Like passionate about it. I'm not getting a bit emotional.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's something I'm really passionate about because

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Speaker 4: you just see so many people that give away their

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Speaker 4: power to someone that you know, like may not be

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Speaker 4: using it for good intention.

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Speaker 2: Takes advantage totally essentially, and takes advantage of other people's vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: other people's desire for belonging and connection and the needs.

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Speaker 1: That they have. Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting how you talk about starting with good intentions,

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Speaker 2: because I think there can be I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: part of the lure of cults, right, Like, no one

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Speaker 2: or at least not many people are going, Hey, that's

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Speaker 2: a cult, I'm going to join it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, tonally like that.

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Speaker 2: Maybe there are a few, but that's not kind of

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Speaker 2: the common trajectory into a cult. It's often people seeing

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Speaker 2: something that feels like it feels some need in them,

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Speaker 2: it feels like it's got good intentions behind it, And

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Speaker 2: who knows, maybe some of these cult leaders at points

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Speaker 2: in time have had good intentions. I think others are

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Speaker 2: probably quite narcissistic or have you know, traits of psychopathy

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Speaker 2: and know how to manipulate people to sort of follow them.

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Speaker 2: So we probably have spectrums of individuals there, but it's

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Speaker 2: like no one sort of just jumps in, going yes,

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Speaker 2: I know this is a cult, and I'm jumping two

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Speaker 2: feet in. It's a slow progression where people are coerced

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And it does get me thinking around like why

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Speaker 4: why people are vulnerable to these kind of groups, And

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Speaker 4: I know you kind of started to speak to it

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Speaker 4: a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I think as society has changed over the years, where

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Speaker 2: we find meaning, connection, belonging, a kind of philosophical understanding

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Speaker 2: around life, these things have changed. We've moved away from

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Speaker 2: sort of traditional religion, which has historically provided those frameworks

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people. Now we have more people

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Speaker 2: who are not religious but are looking for that same

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Speaker 2: feeling of connection, but also meaning and purpose. And I

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Speaker 2: think this is where these structures and organizations and cult

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Speaker 2: like groups fill a need. You know, we think about

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Speaker 2: the psychology of belonging. Everyone wants to belong Everyone wants

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Speaker 2: to feel part of something bigger than themselves, to feel

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Speaker 2: connected to other people. And when these cult like groups

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Speaker 2: are structured in the right ways, they can really feel

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Speaker 2: like they feel those needs.

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Speaker 4: It's so true, and I think it just comes back

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Speaker 4: to like how when we start to externalize our power

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Speaker 4: and we think, oh, me being part of this makes

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Speaker 4: me feel good, makes me feel worthy, that's when like

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Speaker 4: that's when things like that happen. But then it's the

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Speaker 4: journey that we all go on, especially when you've been

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Speaker 4: a part of organizations or groups like that is oh wait,

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Speaker 4: that was always within me, Like I can access that

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Speaker 4: without it, you know. I think it's great to be

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Speaker 4: part of communities that are healthy, but when it's taken

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Speaker 4: away your identity and your individuality, like that's something that

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Speaker 4: we've got to inquire into.

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Speaker 2: You're forced to conform totally part of the group, which

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Speaker 2: is different to a community which sort of has open

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Speaker 2: arms and says come, come enjoy, come share, come be

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Speaker 2: part of what we're doing here and still be yourself totally,

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Speaker 2: versus cult like groups that say, leave the parts of

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Speaker 2: your identity that don't fit this structure behind and change

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Speaker 2: them to fit how.

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Speaker 1: We work totally.

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Speaker 2: One of the key features that cult like groups will

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Speaker 2: lean into is the isolation. So if you are part

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Speaker 2: of this group, you essentially need to isolate yourself from

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Speaker 2: other people who are not part of the group.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, with that, is that because it's seen as a threat.

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Speaker 1: That's mainly what it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's a threat to people I guess

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Speaker 2: questioning what's happening within the group and perhaps being provided

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Speaker 2: with outside information or perspectives from other people that might

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Speaker 2: challenge or question why they're actually part of this group

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Speaker 2: and if it's actually that healthy for them if we

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Speaker 2: isolate people. We see this in abusive relationships as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: people often become isolated from others because it's a way

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Speaker 2: to maintain power and control over someone.

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Speaker 4: So why is it so hard to disengage from these

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Speaker 4: kind of groups. Is that kind of where Stockholm syndrome

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Speaker 4: comes into it.

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Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. Look, there's a lot of factors

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Speaker 2: that keep people stuck in cults, right. Even sometimes when

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Speaker 2: they have their own doubts that might arise, people will

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Speaker 2: sort of still stay a part of these groups because,

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Speaker 2: you know, if they've been cut off from their family

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Speaker 2: and friends and they don't feel like they have people

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Speaker 2: that can maybe help them get out, or they don't

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Speaker 2: feel like they have a clear sense of what their

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Speaker 2: life might look like if they leave, if the cult

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Speaker 2: is what they've known for a period of time, there

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Speaker 2: can be so many factors that stop them from being

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Speaker 2: able to remove themselves. Plus often these groups have, you know,

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Speaker 2: spread messages that create fear about leaving. So it's not

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Speaker 2: just finding it hard to leave, but you know, if

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Speaker 2: I leave, I might feel threatened, or I might feel

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Speaker 2: like I'll be hunted down, or I might have messages

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Speaker 2: that you know, demons will you know, get me or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Whatever the messages are, they've often been you know, quite

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Speaker 2: strongly ingrained into the psyche of the individual. Stockholm is

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Speaker 2: a little bit different. We often think of Stockholm syndrome

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Speaker 2: in the context where someone has very suddenly found themselves

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Speaker 2: in a situation where they are a victim, and you know,

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Speaker 2: Stockholm syndrome is thought more of actually as a survival

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Speaker 2: mechanism to develop some sort of kind of bond or

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Speaker 2: relation with the person who's taken them as captive. So

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Speaker 2: it's a little different in terms of how it plays

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Speaker 2: out to someone who may enter and find themselves stuck

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Speaker 2: in a cult.

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Speaker 1: Right, So does love bombing happening cults?

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Speaker 2: Something similar to love bombing can happen. So if someone

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Speaker 2: finds themselves in, you know, somewhat of a vulnerable situation,

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Speaker 2: they find a group that feels like it offers some

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Speaker 2: sort of meaning and connection for them, they may feel

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Speaker 2: like they're being love bombed, or they might get this

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Speaker 2: very strong and intense message of I want to say hope,

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Speaker 2: you know, like there is a bigger purpose and a

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Speaker 2: lot of kind of like mantras or messaging around that yes,

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Speaker 2: and a bit of like you have been chosen. God

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Speaker 2: has chosen you to come into the group, so feeling

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Speaker 2: special to be a part of the group.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 2: So it's a little bit different in terms of like

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Speaker 2: love bombing in relationships is more about that individual person,

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Speaker 2: like you are so amazing, you are so wonderful, you

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Speaker 2: are so beautiful, You're the best person I've ever met.

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Speaker 2: In cults, it's more like you are special. We see

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Speaker 2: something in you, God sees something in you. You have

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Speaker 2: been brought here for a reason. We have the answers.

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Speaker 2: So it's but it's got that same flavor of it

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Speaker 2: being very strong. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting too because it kind of comes back

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Speaker 4: to something you were talking about earlier around how you

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Speaker 4: know why it can be harder to leave, right because

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Speaker 4: the associations to it is like, wow, but this leader

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Speaker 4: did help me with my you know, you know, my career,

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Speaker 4: or helped me with my sense of purpose, Like there's

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Speaker 4: still that loyalty, right, being like, oh, like you feel guilty, right,

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Speaker 4: And that's why that I can imagine that would be

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Speaker 4: part of it being harder to step away because of

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Speaker 4: all of those factors and that fear of that being

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Speaker 4: weaponized against you when you do want to leave. So

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Speaker 4: it is really confusing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And the reality is it's probably not a

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent negative experience for the personally. Otherwise they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't they wouldn't be a part of it. They would

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Speaker 2: have they wouldn't have started or gone through that progression.

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Speaker 2: There will have been moments at time where they will

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Speaker 2: have felt seen and heard and valued and like they

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Speaker 2: have that sense of connection and belonging that they're seeking. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the other thing that I'm thinking of here that's important

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Speaker 2: to consider is a psychological phenomenon called groupthink.

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Speaker 1: M never heard of it.

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Speaker 2: So this kind of dates back to like the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 2: There were experiments that were done that exemplify how group

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Speaker 2: think works, and I'll tell you about in a moment,

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Speaker 2: But essentially, group think is this idea that when we

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Speaker 2: are part of a group, we have a natural desire

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Speaker 2: for harmony over conflict. And so what this means is

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Speaker 2: that people will sometimes when they find themselves in a

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Speaker 2: group situation, they might find themselves agreeing to things they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't normally agree to. So the people around us and

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Speaker 2: the decisions they make can actually influence the decisions we

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Speaker 2: make or we agree to. So there's a famous study

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Speaker 2: called the Ash Conformity Studies. So the researcher's surname is Ash.

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Speaker 2: So if anyone's interested, ascch and this was done in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties. And basically, a person goes in for

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Speaker 2: an experiment and they think they're in a room with

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Speaker 2: other people who are also doing the same experiment. Actually

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Speaker 2: the other people are actors ah yes. And so what

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Speaker 2: happens is there's a task to do, and it's a

383
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Speaker 2: really basic simple task. It's actually advertised as a visual

384
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Speaker 2: perception task, whereas it's actually an experiment about decision making.

385
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Speaker 2: And so you're shown a picture that has different lines

386
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Speaker 2: on it, four different lines, and all you have to

387
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Speaker 2: do is say which of the two lines are actually

388
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Speaker 2: the same length. So what they do is they do

389
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Speaker 2: two rounds of this where all the actors give the

390
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Speaker 2: correct answer, and then they ask the experimental participant last

391
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Speaker 2: and they give the correct answer as well. On the

392
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Speaker 2: third round, all the actors give the wrong answer. Now,

393
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Speaker 2: this is a really obvious easy task because you can

394
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Speaker 2: see there's four lines, two of them are the same length. Like,

395
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Speaker 2: it's not hard, it's not hard, yeah, right, But all

396
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Speaker 2: the actors give the wrong answer. And what they found

397
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Speaker 2: is about seventy five percent of the time the participants

398
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Speaker 2: who's going after all these actors will also give the

399
00:21:09,919 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: wrong answer wow, because they doubt themselves and don't want

400
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Speaker 2: to be the only person who's saying, hang on, guys,

401
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,959
Speaker 2: that doesn't look like what the answer is wow, Which

402
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Speaker 2: is kind of scary to think about. Really, If like

403
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Speaker 2: people are willing to do that in a very basic

404
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 2: task where we're looking at sort of the length of

405
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Speaker 2: lines a simple task, how likely are people to be

406
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Speaker 2: to be conforming with what other people say on more

407
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 2: complex and nuanced issues.

408
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Speaker 4: So true, and it's interesting because it just gets me

409
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Speaker 4: thinking more about like even you're talking about the doubt

410
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Speaker 4: piece and how when we are in an environment where

411
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Speaker 4: we are constantly starting to doubt ourselves, like that's a

412
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Speaker 4: red flag, right being like, huh, really interesting, I'm feeling

413
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Speaker 4: this kind of dissonance, like people saying one thing, but

414
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Speaker 4: I am feeling something different. It's learning to lean into

415
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Speaker 4: that voice more. Yes, as well, because there's so much

416
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Speaker 4: wisdom in that. Yeah.

417
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So with cults.

418
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Speaker 4: These days, how does that show up in like an

419
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Speaker 4: online space?

420
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Speaker 2: Well, like many things, the online world provides the potential

421
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Speaker 2: for things to be amplified in ways that just didn't

422
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Speaker 2: exist before we had the internet. And so we do

423
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Speaker 2: see that a lot of people, a lot of young

424
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Speaker 2: people may find themselves radicalized or pulled into these high

425
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Speaker 2: demand organizations or cult like groups, and they are sometimes

426
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Speaker 2: very strategically identified. It could be through video games, it

427
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: could be through social media, through online chats, and blogs

428
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Speaker 2: where they interact with people they are identified as being

429
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 2: vulnerable in some way, perhaps isolated or lonely, and they

430
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,519
Speaker 2: again find this sense of kind of belonging with people

431
00:22:57,639 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: online who may provide answers to the things that they're

432
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Speaker 2: questioning in their life. The way that algorithms work nowadays

433
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Speaker 2: is that if you have some sort of skewed or

434
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Speaker 2: extreme beliefs, the algorithm will feed you more information that

435
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 2: aligns with those beliefs and views that you have. So

436
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: it's really quite dangerous in that sense because you don't

437
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,239
Speaker 2: actually get the normal spectrum of beliefs presented to you

438
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: on a particular topic. You get a very skewed portion,

439
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 2: and that can very much influence the path that people

440
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: go down.

441
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: After the break.

442
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 4: Doctor Anastasia is going to tell us what red flags

443
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 4: we should look at for to make sure we're not

444
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 4: being sucked into a cult. Stay with us, So, Anastasia,

445
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 4: what are the red flags that we should be looking

446
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 4: out for to.

447
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: Spot a cult.

448
00:23:48,919 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: This is a big topic.

449
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,999
Speaker 5: It's a big it's big and all's important, right, yeah, yes, absolutely,

450
00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 5: So I'm going to provide some key identifiers of cults.

451
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: If you do feel like you're talking with people or

452
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 2: a group and you've got some question marks or red

453
00:24:05,639 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: flags in your mind, have a think about these following things.

454
00:24:08,919 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: So the first one is a sense of authoritarian control.

455
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: So this is essentially the idea that a cult hinges

456
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: on encouraging maximum dependency on the cult. If you are

457
00:24:23,639 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: talking with people who are part of a group and

458
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: they are encouraging you to leave all facets of your

459
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: life behind and have maximum dependency on them and the

460
00:24:34,639 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: people in the group, you may have some red flags

461
00:24:38,399 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: popping up in your mind. Ultimately, you know, people who

462
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: are in a cult often feel incapable of living their

463
00:24:45,879 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: lives outside of that cult. So it's this very all

464
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 2: or nothing feel and the key word maximum dependency.

465
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 4: It's interesting too because it's kind of like the world

466
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 4: of right and wrong, being like, oh, it's wrong to

467
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 4: still have these aspects of your life.

468
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: It's right to be a part of.

469
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: This yes, yes, yes, yes, you're right. Very clear, black

470
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: and white, divisive sort of thinking exactly. So the second

471
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: thing to be wary of is if people are encouraging

472
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: you to cut contact with your family, with your friends,

473
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 2: with your work, with just sort of people in your

474
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,999
Speaker 2: day to day life. This sense of isolation is a

475
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: key factor that we see in a lot of cults

476
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,959
Speaker 2: that keep people stuck in cults, and it sort of

477
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: removes them from being able to consider other perspectives or

478
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: hear from their friends and family as to ideas and

479
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: beliefs that might be contrary to what's being discussed in

480
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: the cult. So big red flags if you're being encouraged

481
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,999
Speaker 2: to isolate yourself. The third thing I'd encourage people to

482
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: look out for is a strong sense of peer pressure.

483
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: So and cult like groups will often use rituals and

484
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 2: kind of intense group activities to bond people, but this

485
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: can come with a lot of peer pressure that you

486
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: must participate in these activities. You must participate in these

487
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: rituals to be a part of the group. So again

488
00:26:15,879 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 2: we find these very extreme, black and white all or

489
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: nothing approaches. One more thing for people to look out

490
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: for is a culture around fear and shame. So this

491
00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: builds on the kind of peer pressure and the requirement

492
00:26:36,159 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 2: to sort of give yourself to the group, and it

493
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 2: comes with an added layer of if you don't do that,

494
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: you will be shamed, and sometimes this actually involves sort

495
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 2: of public shaming and public humiliation. We hear stories from

496
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,999
Speaker 2: cults where if a member sort of deviates from what

497
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: the cult is preaching, that they are publicly shamed in

498
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: front of the group. Public shaming and shaming is a

499
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: great manipulative tool to make people conform horrible feeling shamed.

500
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: So if you are talking with group members and there

501
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: is this flavor of fear and shaming coming through, that

502
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: would be a red flag as well.

503
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: I think it's really great we're having this conversation around

504
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,759
Speaker 4: the red flags, and it's actually getting me thinking for

505
00:27:20,919 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 4: anyone tuning in where they might be like, oh, tick tick,

506
00:27:25,159 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 4: Like I'm seeing these red flags because I can imagine

507
00:27:27,399 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 4: that can be a bit of a confronting space to

508
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 4: be in. Right, So it's like, what could be a

509
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: next step for people, because I know that sometimes there's

510
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 4: so much shame and embarrassment and fear around what to

511
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 4: do next, especially with a conversation around cults.

512
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think the most important thing is what

513
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: someone decides to do next, do it safely. Yeah. You know,

514
00:27:51,879 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 2: different different sort of groups and cults will have different

515
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,039
Speaker 2: levels of risk attached to them, and some groups, some

516
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: cults might feel easier to step away from in the

517
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,039
Speaker 2: sense that there feels like there's less risk than others,

518
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: So ensure safety when taking the next steps. I would

519
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: encourage people to try to reconnect, if possible again with safety,

520
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 2: with the previous support systems that they had, So that

521
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: might be family, that might be friends, the people that

522
00:28:19,919 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: you know you may have cut off. It's surprising often

523
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: if we do try and reach out to someone for

524
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: some help and for some guidance, even if we've previously

525
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 2: sort of cut them out of our life or taken

526
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: some space and distance from them, those people can usually

527
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,759
Speaker 2: be quite willing to be there for us in a

528
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: time of need. Definitely, so I would encourage people to

529
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: consider that. Also, there are health professionals like psychologists who

530
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: are specialists in working with people who've been in cults

531
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: or perhaps in some sort of high demand organization. So

532
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: seeking out someone who specifically understands how these groups work

533
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: and why it is so difficult to step away from

534
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: them sometimes is really important as well.

535
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, Now, I know we unpacked a lot of

536
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: red flags, but how do we actually protect ourselves from cults?

537
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: This is good again, I'm going to come back to

538
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: the support system. Support systems are so key when it

539
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: comes to protecting ourselves. Stay connected to your support system.

540
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: Be wary of anyone who's telling you to disengage from

541
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: people in your life, because those strong connections and those

542
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: existing connections you have in your life will be very

543
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: protective for you. So stay connected to people. The second

544
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: one is question things you know. Cults often thrive on

545
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: a blind obedience, an obedience where we don't question anything,

546
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,039
Speaker 2: So be willing to question things. And if questioning things

547
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: is shut down. There's a difference between you questioning things

548
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: and people giving answers or providing answers, or being willing

549
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: to engage in a discussion, versus shutting down your curiosity.

550
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

551
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, be wary of anyone who wants to shut down

552
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: your curiosity or shame you for being curious. Yeah'll treat

553
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: you as if it's a bad thing for questioning things.

554
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: We all question things. We want to understand things fully,

555
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: so there's nothing wrong with that. If anyone's making you

556
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: feel like that's a wrong choice or the wrong pathway,

557
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: some red flags there. So that's a way to protect

558
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: yourself by questioning things.

559
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 4: After the break, an anonymous friend shares a dilemma about

560
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 4: trying to help their friend who they think might be

561
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 4: in a cult. Stay with us, Berb Hearb Barb.

562
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: I'm having a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.

563
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer

564
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: a question or dilemma from one of you our listeners, Anastasia,

565
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 4: this one comes from someone anonymous.

566
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: So here's the situation.

567
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 6: I have a friend who's gotten really involved in this

568
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 6: group that, to be honest, kind of feels like a cult,

569
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 6: or at least something high control and intense. At first,

570
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 6: it seemed like just another wellness or personal growth thing.

571
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: That now she's.

572
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 6: Constantly quoting their leader, cutting people off you disagree, and spending.

573
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: All her time at their events.

574
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 6: When I gently raised some concerns, she got super defensive

575
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,999
Speaker 6: and said, I just don't get it. I'm worried, but

576
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 6: I also don't want to come off as judgmental or

577
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 6: push her further into it. How do you support someone

578
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 6: who might be into deep when they convinced they've finally

579
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 6: found the truth?

580
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,999
Speaker 1: That's so hard, really hard.

581
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: Anonymous. You are a good friend for caring about this

582
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: person in your life. One of the things I'm going

583
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: to suggest to you is where possible stay connected with

584
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: this friend of yours. If we think about often what

585
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: drives people into these high demand groups, it is some

586
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: sense of connection and belonging and those groups providing meaning

587
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: and purpose. By staying connected with your friend, you have

588
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:04,279
Speaker 2: the opportunity to provide her with connection and belonging outside

589
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 2: of the group, and this will be really protective for

590
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: her so that she doesn't hopefully end up deeper and

591
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: deeper inside of this group. So I would say, where possible,

592
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: stay connected. Your connection is going to help protect her

593
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: in the long run. The other thing you could also

594
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: consider doing is talking to a mental health professional about

595
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: this situation so that they can advise and guide you

596
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: around the specific circumstances that you and your friend find

597
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: yourself in.

598
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 4: Good luck, Anonymous, Anastasia, This one was a big episode.

599
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,799
Speaker 4: Can you give us the main takeaways from it?

600
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: Yes?

601
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: I can.

602
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: First of all, cults and high demand organizations use many

603
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: coercive and manipulative tactics to pull people in. Second, a

604
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: drive for connection, meaning and belonging can result in people

605
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: entering cult like groups. And lastly, protect yourself from cults

606
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: by staying connected to your support system and being willing

607
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: to question what you're told.

608
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 4: If you have a burning question for us, there are

609
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 4: a few ways to get in contact with us. Links

610
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 4: are in the show notes.

611
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't

612
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present

613
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal medical history.

614
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 4: Next week's episode is all about introversion, extraversion, and somewhere

615
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 4: in between. We unpack social anxiety and help you better

616
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: understand where you might sit on this scale, so tune

617
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 4: into that.

618
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: The senior producer of What Are You Happy? Is Charlie Blackman, the.

619
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 4: Group executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is

620
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: Jemma Donaho. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok.

621
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 4: Search at but Are You Happy Pod to find us,

622
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: I'm a Shany Dante.

623
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of

624
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

625
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,

626
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes.

627
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or

628
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: Beyond Blue if you're needing more immediate support.

629
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next

630
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: Time, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land

631
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: and waters that this podcast is recorded on