WEBVTT - EXTRA: The Blake Lively Smear Campaign Unpacked 0:00:11.424 --> 0:00:14.144 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:14.784 --> 0:00:18.624 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and Waders 0:00:18.744 --> 0:00:20.624 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.784 --> 0:00:23.904 Hi everyone, it's me and Friedman in your ears from 0:00:23.984 --> 0:00:27.144 our sister podcast out Loud, and today we are sharing 0:00:27.184 --> 0:00:30.064 with spill listeners an emergency episode. 0:00:29.624 --> 0:00:31.784 That we recorded on out Loud. 0:00:31.784 --> 0:00:34.624 We're Holly Wayne Right, Jesse Stevens, and I unpack all 0:00:34.624 --> 0:00:38.424 the allegations that Blake Lively has made against Justin Baldoni 0:00:38.704 --> 0:00:40.344 her It Ends with Us co star. 0:00:41.024 --> 0:00:43.824 Have a listen and enjoy your holidays. 0:00:49.424 --> 0:00:53.024 Hello out louders. It's Monday, the twenty third of December, 0:00:53.064 --> 0:00:56.264 and I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Weir Friedman, and. 0:00:56.184 --> 0:00:57.224 I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:57.224 --> 0:00:59.984 And we were not meant to be here right now, 0:01:00.064 --> 0:01:01.384 but alas. 0:01:01.464 --> 0:01:06.104 We are here because we can bury anyone inside a 0:01:06.144 --> 0:01:09.984 Hollywood smear machine. That is the New York Times headline 0:01:10.024 --> 0:01:13.824 that we definitely had to be here right now, Jesse Stevens, 0:01:14.624 --> 0:01:17.784 because you might remember you definitely remember bits of it. 0:01:17.784 --> 0:01:19.744 It was one of the stories of the year that 0:01:19.824 --> 0:01:22.664 one of the most watched movies of twenty twenty four, 0:01:22.904 --> 0:01:26.944 It Ends with Us, came alongside the mass cancelation of 0:01:26.984 --> 0:01:31.104 its star, Blake Lively. The pressure that accompanied that movie 0:01:31.144 --> 0:01:33.944 was notable for the fact that the star and producer 0:01:34.064 --> 0:01:38.224 Lively and its other star and director, Justin Baldoni, went 0:01:38.264 --> 0:01:41.504 to great and unusual lengths not to be seen together, 0:01:41.864 --> 0:01:44.624 to be interviewed together, to show any of the usual 0:01:44.664 --> 0:01:49.104 camaraderie required of co creators of a big film. Lively, 0:01:49.384 --> 0:01:52.304 the rumors went, wanted to promote the movie as if 0:01:52.304 --> 0:01:57.704 it were a flowery rom com. Baldoni supposedly loudly insisted 0:01:57.704 --> 0:02:00.864 that he wanted its serious subject matter, coercive control and 0:02:00.904 --> 0:02:05.344 domestic violence, to be front and center. Lively was criticized 0:02:05.384 --> 0:02:08.584 for trivializing a serious topic, for being a tone deaf 0:02:08.704 --> 0:02:13.464 self promoter, for launching a haircare brand. The backlash was huge, 0:02:14.104 --> 0:02:17.464 and then yesterday The New York Times reported that Lively 0:02:17.584 --> 0:02:21.424 is taking legal action against Baldooni, accusing him of sexual 0:02:21.464 --> 0:02:25.184 harassment and an effort to destroy her reputation. It's a 0:02:25.264 --> 0:02:29.624 story that has massive implications for I'd say almost every 0:02:29.664 --> 0:02:33.104 celebrity story you see on the internet. Mia, what did 0:02:33.144 --> 0:02:35.984 the story the one with the we can bury anyone 0:02:36.064 --> 0:02:37.904 headline allege I. 0:02:37.824 --> 0:02:40.024 Think Jesse's going to take us through some of the 0:02:40.504 --> 0:02:42.144 allegations in more detail, but. 0:02:42.224 --> 0:02:46.384 Overall, it alleged serious misconduct on the set. 0:02:46.464 --> 0:02:49.584 Now, what's important to understand is that Justin was not 0:02:49.664 --> 0:02:52.904 only the director and the producer and the co star, 0:02:53.424 --> 0:02:55.744 he also was a co owner of the studio that 0:02:55.864 --> 0:02:58.944 was making the film, So even though Blake Lively was 0:02:58.984 --> 0:03:03.104 more famous, he had huge power in the context of 0:03:03.144 --> 0:03:07.424 making this film. So it alleged sexual harassment. And then 0:03:07.504 --> 0:03:11.464 also it detailed that when Blake Lively complained about it 0:03:11.504 --> 0:03:14.864 and insisted on a meeting with all the stakeholders before 0:03:14.904 --> 0:03:18.384 she returned to filming in January this year, after the writers' strike, 0:03:19.464 --> 0:03:22.504 Justin Baldoni hired a crisis pr to smear her, which 0:03:22.544 --> 0:03:24.504 we're also going to get into in a moment. But 0:03:24.584 --> 0:03:27.064 let's just rewind to August to remind ourselves what this 0:03:27.104 --> 0:03:29.504 movie was about and why there was so much controversy 0:03:29.504 --> 0:03:32.184 when it was released, because it was only released a 0:03:32.224 --> 0:03:35.384 few months ago, and it's about to come onto streaming, 0:03:35.504 --> 0:03:37.984 or I think it's just come on to streaming. The 0:03:38.024 --> 0:03:41.464 movie is based on the Colleen Hoover book that was 0:03:41.504 --> 0:03:43.184 also called It Ends with Us and It tells the 0:03:43.224 --> 0:03:47.464 story of a florist called Lily Bloom played by Lively, 0:03:47.624 --> 0:03:52.464 who navigates the romance with a neurosurgeon called Ryle Kincaid 0:03:53.104 --> 0:03:56.264 that becomes abusive. That's the essence of the film. The 0:03:56.304 --> 0:03:58.824 three of us went to see it, it was already 0:03:59.064 --> 0:04:02.664 completely swamped in controversy. I really liked the film. I 0:04:02.664 --> 0:04:06.024 thought Blake Lively was fantastic. Yeah, I thought it was 0:04:06.104 --> 0:04:07.464 not the best film in the world, but I thought 0:04:07.464 --> 0:04:11.944 it was really good. And I was surprised the controversy 0:04:11.984 --> 0:04:15.344 that had completely engulfed this film. It seemed really out 0:04:15.384 --> 0:04:18.784 of whack. So what was the controversy. Well, there's a 0:04:18.824 --> 0:04:22.024 few different elements to it, but it was basically all 0:04:22.184 --> 0:04:27.904 about Blake Lively being inappropriate during the promotional part of 0:04:27.944 --> 0:04:30.304 the tour. So it wasn't about the actual movie itself. 0:04:30.344 --> 0:04:32.904 It was about how it was promoted. There was an 0:04:32.904 --> 0:04:36.864 interview where she encouraged fans to grab your friends, wear 0:04:36.864 --> 0:04:39.384 your florals, and head out to see it, which kind 0:04:39.424 --> 0:04:43.144 of suggested that it was a lighthearted viewing experience. There 0:04:43.144 --> 0:04:45.464 was no trigger warning at the beginning of it, so 0:04:45.504 --> 0:04:48.504 there was a whole big debate about trigger warnings, and 0:04:48.824 --> 0:04:53.184 the whole marketing campaign was criticized as tone death given 0:04:53.384 --> 0:04:56.824 how serious the themes were in the movie about domestic abuse, 0:04:57.144 --> 0:05:00.024 and that all landed on Blake Lively. Now, there were 0:05:00.064 --> 0:05:03.104 some things she did during the tour that particularly made 0:05:03.144 --> 0:05:05.584 her a target of criticism, like she was launching a 0:05:05.624 --> 0:05:08.744 hair care line at the time. She also promoted her 0:05:09.024 --> 0:05:13.184 beverage brand, which was called Betty Booze, and many people 0:05:13.224 --> 0:05:15.984 said that alcohol is often connected with domestic violence, so 0:05:16.064 --> 0:05:20.024 that's insensitive, and so it was seen that she was 0:05:20.224 --> 0:05:23.664 just not taking it seriously, which led to this big 0:05:23.744 --> 0:05:28.184 backlash against her. And you'd have to say, one of 0:05:28.224 --> 0:05:32.824 the worst cancelations that we've seen in a long time 0:05:32.904 --> 0:05:36.904 for reasons that seemed really spurious. 0:05:37.384 --> 0:05:40.984 Yes, I agree, because back at the time we talked 0:05:40.984 --> 0:05:43.864 about it and it felt as though the facts we 0:05:43.904 --> 0:05:46.984 had in front of us were not proportionate to the 0:05:47.344 --> 0:05:52.504 avalanche of hate that Blake Lively was getting, particularly on TikTok. 0:05:52.584 --> 0:05:55.624 Maybe that's because that's where I leave most of the time, 0:05:56.264 --> 0:05:59.144 and we were getting these leaks. So the leaks that 0:05:59.144 --> 0:06:02.104 we were getting were that there was something that said 0:06:02.144 --> 0:06:05.864 justin Baldoni lingered too long on a kiss, he asked 0:06:05.904 --> 0:06:09.584 how much she weighed because he had a former back 0:06:09.624 --> 0:06:12.064 injury and was worried about picking her up, like weird, 0:06:12.624 --> 0:06:13.384 weird stuff. 0:06:13.744 --> 0:06:15.624 None of those took hold, so there were a few 0:06:15.704 --> 0:06:18.944 rumors of was it uncomfortable on set. The other thing 0:06:18.984 --> 0:06:23.544 that really came out was Blake had taken over and 0:06:23.864 --> 0:06:27.664 she'd insisted on doing her own edit that somehow Ryan 0:06:27.704 --> 0:06:30.224 Reynolds got involved and was rewriting a few scenes. So 0:06:30.264 --> 0:06:33.304 the image that came across through the press tour was 0:06:33.344 --> 0:06:38.624 that she was not taking it seriously, was dominating an 0:06:38.704 --> 0:06:42.784 a diva on set, and that he was a victim 0:06:42.824 --> 0:06:44.984 of all this. Because, in case you're not familiar with 0:06:45.064 --> 0:06:47.944 Justin Baldoni, his most famous role as an actor was 0:06:47.984 --> 0:06:52.464 in Jane the Virgin, and he's really fushioned himself over 0:06:52.464 --> 0:06:55.144 the last few years as a feminist and as a 0:06:56.184 --> 0:07:00.024 podcast called Man Enough, where he questions toxic masculinity. 0:07:00.504 --> 0:07:03.184 He had a viral ted talk about it like he's 0:07:03.304 --> 0:07:04.744 very much he's that. 0:07:04.704 --> 0:07:07.704 Guy, a champion of women. That was his vibe. 0:07:07.824 --> 0:07:10.504 And among all these rumors, what was very clear, the 0:07:10.504 --> 0:07:14.864 whole like smoke fire thing is that they had definitely 0:07:14.944 --> 0:07:17.904 fallen out. There was no question about that. You know, 0:07:17.984 --> 0:07:21.024 the other cast members had stopped following him on Instagram 0:07:21.024 --> 0:07:23.464 and seemed to very much be siding with her. As 0:07:23.504 --> 0:07:25.424 I said at the beginning, they weren't photographed together, that 0:07:25.424 --> 0:07:27.384 they didn't do any promo. It was kind of like 0:07:27.584 --> 0:07:30.384 dueling press tours, which is very unusual. 0:07:30.504 --> 0:07:34.424 And Baldoni at the time he spoke to Today and 0:07:34.544 --> 0:07:38.304 obviously addressing some of the creative differences, and he said, 0:07:38.784 --> 0:07:41.704 I'm a best idea wins person and I always have 0:07:41.824 --> 0:07:43.944 been to a fault, sometimes to a point where at 0:07:43.984 --> 0:07:45.824 times I think I've had people wonder if I know 0:07:45.904 --> 0:07:47.904 what I'm doing or if I have a point of view, 0:07:48.064 --> 0:07:51.064 because I'm so willing to have my vision changed. I 0:07:51.104 --> 0:07:54.824 don't believe that inspiration or creativity comes through one person. 0:07:55.224 --> 0:07:57.384 On the night of the premiere, he was saying, this 0:07:57.464 --> 0:08:00.384 isn't about me, It's a night for Blake, It's for Colleen. 0:08:01.104 --> 0:08:04.224 I'm so grateful we're here, and again it was clear 0:08:04.264 --> 0:08:07.024 that neither of those women were speaking to him. 0:08:07.624 --> 0:08:09.944 What happened on the weekend is that Blake Lively has 0:08:09.984 --> 0:08:12.704 filed a legal complaint that presents her side of the 0:08:12.744 --> 0:08:15.544 story to all of the things that we were just discussing, 0:08:15.624 --> 0:08:17.624 and Jesse's going to tell us about them in a minute, 0:08:17.704 --> 0:08:18.864 but first shortbreak. 0:08:26.904 --> 0:08:31.824 So, the allegations of misconduct on set are pretty damning. 0:08:31.984 --> 0:08:37.024 In terms of physical boundaries and violations. There are allegations 0:08:37.104 --> 0:08:41.304 that he improvised unwanted kissing scenes. He would enter This 0:08:41.464 --> 0:08:44.624 is Baldoni would enter her makeup trailer uninvited while she 0:08:44.664 --> 0:08:48.864 was undressed, including while she was breastfeeding. In terms of 0:08:48.904 --> 0:08:53.864 sexual harassment, Baldoni and Jamie Heath, he was a producer 0:08:53.864 --> 0:08:58.144 and co owner, there are allegations that they would describe 0:08:58.184 --> 0:09:02.024 their genitalia on set. Baldoni would frequently refer to his 0:09:02.184 --> 0:09:06.424 past porn addiction and describe previous sexual encounters where he 0:09:06.544 --> 0:09:10.944 said he may or may not have received consent. Now 0:09:10.984 --> 0:09:14.224 we know that Lively made a series of requests part 0:09:14.264 --> 0:09:17.744 way through filming. They actually had this all hands meeting 0:09:17.824 --> 0:09:21.824 which included her husband, Ryan Reynolds, and it was held 0:09:21.864 --> 0:09:26.584 to address Baldoni and Jamie Heaths alleged inappropriate conduct. 0:09:26.784 --> 0:09:29.904 So, yeah, this was interesting because this was like she 0:09:30.104 --> 0:09:33.744 had Ryan there as her support person, and it was 0:09:33.784 --> 0:09:35.904 after the writer's strike, so they'd only been filming for 0:09:35.984 --> 0:09:38.264 six weeks. Then that was the writer's strike and she 0:09:38.384 --> 0:09:40.384 had this meeting and she said, I'm not coming back 0:09:41.104 --> 0:09:44.264 unless we have this meeting. She included Sony, who's the distributor, 0:09:44.264 --> 0:09:46.184 and all these different people. So there are a lot 0:09:46.224 --> 0:09:48.264 of people at that meeting, which means that there will 0:09:48.304 --> 0:09:49.624 be a lot of you know. 0:09:49.784 --> 0:09:52.224 And none of this was disputed at the time. 0:09:52.704 --> 0:09:56.344 So there was a list of thirty things. They're quite 0:09:56.384 --> 0:10:00.104 revealing some of Lively's requests, and these were, as you say, 0:10:00.144 --> 0:10:03.384 they were confirmed because it's a document. Her request were 0:10:03.424 --> 0:10:07.144 that Baldoni would stop asking her about religious beliefs, stop 0:10:07.224 --> 0:10:10.544 asking her trainer about her weight, she was four months 0:10:10.544 --> 0:10:13.624 pardon with her fourth baby, and stopped claiming to be 0:10:13.704 --> 0:10:17.864 able to speak to her dead father. There are allegations 0:10:17.864 --> 0:10:21.544 that Baldoni improvised while on set. So in one scene, 0:10:21.704 --> 0:10:24.264 they weren't miked up. It was just to be filmed. 0:10:24.264 --> 0:10:27.224 It was just a visual scene, and Lively claims that 0:10:27.304 --> 0:10:31.224 as himself, Baldoni leaned in and slowly dragged his lips 0:10:31.264 --> 0:10:33.984 from her ear to her neck and said it smells 0:10:34.024 --> 0:10:38.304 so good. It says that when Lively objected to his actions, 0:10:38.664 --> 0:10:44.184 Baldoni retorted, I'm not even attracted to you. Baldoni added, 0:10:44.264 --> 0:10:48.384 this is an allegation improvised sexual content and nude scenes, 0:10:48.544 --> 0:10:51.024 and he fought to have a scene where the characters 0:10:51.064 --> 0:10:53.664 climaxed at the same time on their wedding night and 0:10:53.744 --> 0:10:57.064 told Lively that he and his partner always did and 0:10:57.144 --> 0:11:00.064 allegedly pressed her on whether that was the case with 0:11:00.184 --> 0:11:03.264 her husband, and she says she was very uncomfortable by 0:11:03.264 --> 0:11:08.384 that conversation. There's an allegation about the childbirth scene which 0:11:08.424 --> 0:11:11.864 is particularly unsettling. It wasn't agreed that she would be 0:11:11.984 --> 0:11:13.784 naked for it, but then when she got on set, 0:11:13.824 --> 0:11:17.744 she says that he insisted she be naked. They compromised 0:11:18.144 --> 0:11:20.824 that she would be naked from the waist down, but 0:11:21.384 --> 0:11:25.104 the set wasn't closed and in the end his friend 0:11:25.264 --> 0:11:28.024 came in to play the role of the obgyn. 0:11:28.424 --> 0:11:31.384 I think this is possibly the most chilling thing because 0:11:31.424 --> 0:11:34.064 what's so illuminating about reading will link to it if 0:11:34.104 --> 0:11:36.864 anybody wants to look at it, which I think you should. 0:11:37.024 --> 0:11:40.064 But you learn a lot about Hollywood and how sex 0:11:40.104 --> 0:11:42.824 scenes work right, and there are things like nudity writers 0:11:42.864 --> 0:11:47.024 where everybody agrees what the parameters before you go into 0:11:47.024 --> 0:11:50.064 a scene, things like closed sex when there's nudity, so 0:11:50.144 --> 0:11:53.264 only essential people are there. Monitors are turned off so 0:11:53.344 --> 0:11:56.264 other people can't look from other rooms and even film you. 0:11:56.784 --> 0:11:58.904 So she was in stirrups. She had a little bit 0:11:58.904 --> 0:12:02.784 of fabric just literally covering her and the role of 0:12:02.864 --> 0:12:07.224 the gynecologist. They were like between her legs. And also 0:12:07.544 --> 0:12:11.264 another owner of his studio, Wayfarirer, had just flown in 0:12:11.304 --> 0:12:13.944 to visit the set on that day for the first time. 0:12:14.424 --> 0:12:17.464 Like it is so gross and creepy. 0:12:18.024 --> 0:12:21.384 It also is clearly from this very long list of 0:12:21.824 --> 0:12:25.744 requests clear that this set was a shit show, right 0:12:25.784 --> 0:12:29.504 because one of them is also stop having hours long 0:12:29.624 --> 0:12:35.144 meetings where Baldoni cries and no more pressing from Baldoni 0:12:35.224 --> 0:12:40.184 to sage any of Blake Live's employees, Like this is 0:12:40.224 --> 0:12:42.824 batshit what's going on on that set, And it seems 0:12:42.824 --> 0:12:44.864 that she's very much trying to say, let's get back 0:12:44.864 --> 0:12:47.064 to a professional set. 0:12:46.904 --> 0:12:48.904 And they're at claims as well that when you know 0:12:48.944 --> 0:12:51.624 there were certain moments where Lively was made to feel uncomfortable, 0:12:51.664 --> 0:12:54.344 other women from the set came up and said, I've 0:12:54.344 --> 0:12:57.544 also had that experience so the allegations are that it 0:12:57.704 --> 0:12:59.784 was not just her, she was trying to protect the 0:12:59.824 --> 0:13:00.344 whole set. 0:13:00.704 --> 0:13:02.664 The last thing I'll say, and I could go on 0:13:02.744 --> 0:13:04.104 and on about what's in this. 0:13:04.224 --> 0:13:08.264 Complaint, but the last thing is she alleges that there 0:13:08.384 --> 0:13:13.224 was a clear marketing place that was distributed to the 0:13:13.304 --> 0:13:16.864 cast and everyone involved in marketing it about how to 0:13:16.904 --> 0:13:19.584 promote the film. This was from Sony and they said 0:13:19.904 --> 0:13:22.584 they wanted to focus on hope and resilience and not 0:13:22.744 --> 0:13:26.424 position this as a domestic violence film. They say that 0:13:26.504 --> 0:13:31.104 Baldoni went against this, and that's massive because at the 0:13:31.144 --> 0:13:35.024 time everyone was going, why is she not acknowledging that 0:13:35.064 --> 0:13:38.144 this is a film about domestic violence. Baldoni was over 0:13:38.184 --> 0:13:42.264 here with a link in his Instagram bio to help victims. 0:13:42.664 --> 0:13:46.864 Everything he said in his messaging was acknowledging victims, and 0:13:46.944 --> 0:13:50.064 this made Lively look really bad. 0:13:50.464 --> 0:13:52.584 Well, as it turns out, or at least what's alleged 0:13:52.624 --> 0:13:55.744 he here is that that Pivot Jesse was a very 0:13:55.784 --> 0:14:00.544 deliberate one to smear Blake Lively because Baldoni and his 0:14:00.624 --> 0:14:04.424 team knew what was coming. So to the smear campaign, 0:14:04.464 --> 0:14:07.184 and why I say that this is a story that's 0:14:07.224 --> 0:14:09.344 not just about Blake Lively and just In Baldoni, but 0:14:09.464 --> 0:14:13.424 gives an in into what is really behind a lot 0:14:13.464 --> 0:14:16.304 of what we believe right on social media. So all 0:14:16.344 --> 0:14:18.304 those tiktoks and stories that we talked about at the 0:14:18.304 --> 0:14:21.264 beginning that were being shared and reshared as facts that 0:14:21.344 --> 0:14:24.144 Lively was a mean girl, that Lively tried to hijack 0:14:24.224 --> 0:14:26.944 the movie, that Lively just wanted to promote a hair 0:14:26.984 --> 0:14:30.264 care brand. What's alleged in this document is there was 0:14:30.344 --> 0:14:34.024 nothing organic about those stories, and that the PR firm 0:14:34.184 --> 0:14:37.824 hired by Baldoni when he realized that Reynolds had blocked 0:14:37.904 --> 0:14:42.624 him on Instagram, Baldonian, his producing partner, hired this firm 0:14:42.664 --> 0:14:46.464 who were expert in the dark arts of smearing, starting rumors, 0:14:46.464 --> 0:14:49.864 and fanning the flames of negativity. Some of the tactics 0:14:49.864 --> 0:14:53.144 that are alleged to have happened are that the PR 0:14:53.184 --> 0:14:56.584 team would boost negative stories about Lively, branding her as 0:14:56.624 --> 0:15:00.504 difficult and tone death. That contractors were allegedly hired to 0:15:00.584 --> 0:15:05.424 dominate social media with untraceable tactics like social manipulation and 0:15:05.504 --> 0:15:10.944 proactive fan posting. A hired gun helped amplify negative narrative online, 0:15:10.984 --> 0:15:15.424 including on platforms like TikTok and Reddit, and basically all 0:15:15.464 --> 0:15:19.584 these threads of theories started being sown and then amplified. 0:15:19.624 --> 0:15:23.144 Now it's actually impossible, even by the investigative journalists at 0:15:23.144 --> 0:15:26.064 The New York Times and actually by the legal team 0:15:26.144 --> 0:15:30.864 to be able to absolutely identify exactly what the amplification did. 0:15:30.904 --> 0:15:33.544 As we know, the Internet is sprawling and enormous. But 0:15:33.584 --> 0:15:37.744 the negative stories that were planted were planted very deliberately 0:15:38.184 --> 0:15:42.024 and then encouraged. So this tells you everything about how 0:15:42.104 --> 0:15:45.744 we the public were manipulated in this story. 0:15:46.104 --> 0:15:48.944 In August, there were two things we talked about. The 0:15:49.024 --> 0:15:52.344 first was something that we've referred to as the dig, 0:15:52.784 --> 0:15:55.064 which is what happens when someone is in the process 0:15:55.104 --> 0:15:58.984 of cancelation, and we were saying that it's again back 0:15:59.024 --> 0:16:02.584 to it being disproportionate. Is that people started yelling about 0:16:02.584 --> 0:16:08.184 her plantation wedding, about how Reynolds cheated on scullet Jo 0:16:08.224 --> 0:16:12.424 Hansen with Lively. She's always been rude. Everyone on Gossip 0:16:12.504 --> 0:16:16.264 Girl hated her. There were weird videos of people gifting 0:16:16.304 --> 0:16:18.344 her a bracelet on a red carpet and she would 0:16:18.944 --> 0:16:20.544 not accept it, or something like. 0:16:20.504 --> 0:16:23.344 The one that got the most traction was and I 0:16:23.384 --> 0:16:26.144 remember thinking at the time, this is weird. Without wanting 0:16:26.224 --> 0:16:28.904 to we definitely had our doubts and we spoke about 0:16:28.904 --> 0:16:32.984 this on the show, as did others. That interview with 0:16:33.304 --> 0:16:38.304 a Swedish journalist entertainment journalist called Christie Flaher which came 0:16:38.344 --> 0:16:40.944 out where it showed her interviewing Blake Lively for a 0:16:40.944 --> 0:16:45.184 different movie I think back in twenty fifteen, and it 0:16:45.304 --> 0:16:48.864 showed Blake being a little bit rude, and for some 0:16:49.024 --> 0:16:51.944 reason she posted that with the headline the interview that 0:16:51.944 --> 0:16:55.344 made me want to quit my job. That was in 0:16:55.384 --> 0:16:59.344 twenty sixteen. That interview happened, and yet it came out. 0:16:59.944 --> 0:17:02.664 Now why did it come out? Well, you could say 0:17:02.664 --> 0:17:06.144 that organically that journalist was just trying to ride the 0:17:06.144 --> 0:17:09.424 wave of hate against Blake Lively. But what was revealed 0:17:09.464 --> 0:17:13.264 in this is that this journalist had worked with the 0:17:13.264 --> 0:17:16.944 PR company before because they'd also represented Johnny Depp in 0:17:16.984 --> 0:17:21.024 his trial against Amber Heard. And we know that some 0:17:21.064 --> 0:17:24.704 really dodgy things happened then in terms of how Amber 0:17:24.704 --> 0:17:28.504 Heard was trolled and the volume of internet hate towards her, 0:17:29.184 --> 0:17:31.744 so much of which was seen to be manufactured. So 0:17:32.384 --> 0:17:35.104 again it wasn't organic. And there's a word called astroturfing, 0:17:35.104 --> 0:17:39.064 which I learned, which is basically means you think something 0:17:39.384 --> 0:17:41.824 is organic it looks like natural grass, but when you. 0:17:41.744 --> 0:17:43.824 Look closer you see that it's artificial. 0:17:44.064 --> 0:17:47.104 And what that means is that these things are planted 0:17:47.224 --> 0:17:51.264 and then amplified, either by bots or by these agencies. 0:17:51.264 --> 0:17:51.944 That's what they do. 0:17:52.224 --> 0:17:55.064 Yeah, so in terms of being planted, I think that's 0:17:55.104 --> 0:17:59.344 an important point because in the investigation it sort of 0:17:59.384 --> 0:18:02.304 said this isn't bots. I always imagined it was bots. 0:18:02.824 --> 0:18:06.864 But at the time, I was posting on TikTok about 0:18:06.864 --> 0:18:09.624 the Blake Lively thing, and I was noticing that every 0:18:09.664 --> 0:18:13.384 time I posted something that was defensive, it got no reach. 0:18:13.544 --> 0:18:15.704 So I remember talking about this on the show, only 0:18:15.904 --> 0:18:18.544 a few hundred views, and then I posted one thing 0:18:18.584 --> 0:18:22.704 that was cheeky that had something about Blake Lively's cancelation. 0:18:22.824 --> 0:18:25.744 It actually went against it, but all the metadata would 0:18:25.744 --> 0:18:28.344 have suggested that I was about to go her blew up, 0:18:28.984 --> 0:18:33.304 and it seemed that if you were being critical of 0:18:33.344 --> 0:18:38.024 Blake Lively, your content was on steroids. As someone who 0:18:38.384 --> 0:18:40.904 consumes a lot of social media content, it is not 0:18:41.104 --> 0:18:44.744 often that you get a unanimous view on anything. But 0:18:44.864 --> 0:18:49.464 you went onto these media platforms and all of a sudden, 0:18:50.024 --> 0:18:55.224 it was like wall to wall. Everyone hated her. And 0:18:55.304 --> 0:18:58.264 let's be clear, if you saw someone pop up and 0:18:58.304 --> 0:19:02.064 have a go at Blake Lively, that was probably legitimate. 0:19:02.424 --> 0:19:05.784 But where they were getting the information, how their brain 0:19:05.904 --> 0:19:09.904 had been marinating in content kind of contributed to that. 0:19:10.344 --> 0:19:11.344 Well, it creates a lens. 0:19:11.584 --> 0:19:13.904 And I should say, Christy Flower has come out and 0:19:13.944 --> 0:19:16.584 said she has nothing to do with the alleged smear campaign, 0:19:17.064 --> 0:19:20.304 but she was exactly what you were talking about, Jesse. 0:19:20.544 --> 0:19:23.544 She was being opportunistic. So we live in the attention 0:19:23.664 --> 0:19:28.024 economy and if you wanted to go viral, everybody looks 0:19:28.064 --> 0:19:30.904 at the numbers who makes content and in the media, 0:19:31.104 --> 0:19:33.984 so you knew that if you did something that was 0:19:34.104 --> 0:19:37.864 against Blake Lively, it would go off. So it's important 0:19:37.904 --> 0:19:41.704 to understand how something can be both organic and manipulated 0:19:41.784 --> 0:19:43.224 because people will say, but. 0:19:43.224 --> 0:19:45.024 Hang on, Blake Lively. 0:19:45.104 --> 0:19:48.744 They didn't make her try and promote her hair care line, 0:19:48.784 --> 0:19:52.104 they didn't make her reference alcohol, they didn't make her 0:19:52.144 --> 0:19:56.344 wear florals. But the thing is that it's the volume, 0:19:56.744 --> 0:20:00.624 So you can start to believe, oh, everybody hates Blake Lively, 0:20:00.664 --> 0:20:03.984 and when you hear enough of that, it does impact 0:20:04.184 --> 0:20:05.464 on how you view someone. 0:20:05.704 --> 0:20:10.104 And there was also I remember looking at interviews where 0:20:10.464 --> 0:20:14.024 she seemed really insensitive about the subject matter of the film, 0:20:14.424 --> 0:20:17.064 but it was so purposefully cut, and if you watch 0:20:17.104 --> 0:20:19.704 the whole interview, that's not how it seemed. And then 0:20:19.744 --> 0:20:22.424 you were getting Justin Baldoni with these incredible cuts of 0:20:22.784 --> 0:20:26.544 him saying something really eloquent about domestic violence. So it 0:20:26.584 --> 0:20:30.104 did seem that, yeah, I suppose that that is allegedly 0:20:30.144 --> 0:20:30.904 part of the smearing. 0:20:31.584 --> 0:20:34.984 This is where we can bury anyone. Headline comes in 0:20:35.144 --> 0:20:38.904 because in the New York Times investigation, there are literal 0:20:38.944 --> 0:20:44.184 screenshots of text messages between Baldoni's people and the PR 0:20:44.264 --> 0:20:48.424 people saying exactly that that they can bury anybody with 0:20:48.584 --> 0:20:51.304 enough ammunition, and that they needed to do it to 0:20:51.304 --> 0:20:54.424 get Baldoni's story across. We're going to be back in 0:20:54.464 --> 0:20:56.144 a minute, but first a little break. 0:21:02.704 --> 0:21:06.504 I want to talk about the effect of how cancelation 0:21:06.664 --> 0:21:10.824 works and how it can be manipulated, because having experienced 0:21:10.864 --> 0:21:14.064 it a number of times organically, certainly not to my knowledge, 0:21:14.064 --> 0:21:17.904 with a calculated or paid smear campaign by a publicist, 0:21:19.144 --> 0:21:23.344 things gained traction, and then everybody wants to be part 0:21:23.344 --> 0:21:25.904 of a pylon, right, That's why it's called a dogpile 0:21:26.144 --> 0:21:32.024 or a pylon, and there becomes status in reinforcing the 0:21:32.744 --> 0:21:36.944 accepted narrative, which in this case was that Justin Baldoni 0:21:37.024 --> 0:21:39.744 was a hero and cared about domestic violence victims, and 0:21:39.784 --> 0:21:43.624 Blake Lively was an entitled diva who cared about nothing 0:21:43.824 --> 0:21:45.904 other than her hair and looking pretty. 0:21:46.464 --> 0:21:49.784 And because of that that sort of narrative about who 0:21:49.784 --> 0:21:53.024 Blake Lively was, she's a prime candidate for this, right, 0:21:53.544 --> 0:21:57.264 because the thing that's very depressing about this story is 0:21:57.264 --> 0:21:59.584 that we're all being manipulated all the time right on 0:21:59.624 --> 0:22:02.104 social media, and we think we're having our own thoughts 0:22:02.144 --> 0:22:04.744 about things and going, yes, I see, But what this 0:22:04.824 --> 0:22:07.984 shows very clearly is that we're being As Lively said 0:22:08.024 --> 0:22:09.984 in her statement about it, she said she wanted to 0:22:10.024 --> 0:22:12.904 show behind the curtain of how these things start. But 0:22:13.024 --> 0:22:15.544 one of the things that we've got to ask ourselves 0:22:15.664 --> 0:22:19.584 is why are we so invested in thinking awful things 0:22:19.584 --> 0:22:24.064 about women and women like Lively? You know, she in particular, 0:22:24.184 --> 0:22:27.104 I guess she is blonde and beautiful, married to a 0:22:27.224 --> 0:22:29.464 rich man. She is a striver We've talked about on 0:22:29.504 --> 0:22:31.224 this show lots of times. Is the worst thing you 0:22:31.344 --> 0:22:34.984 can be. She has her own businesses, she tries really hard, 0:22:35.064 --> 0:22:38.544 like she promoted the shit out of that movie, and 0:22:38.984 --> 0:22:42.544 it's almost like the world was dying to believe this 0:22:42.624 --> 0:22:44.904 about her, which is one of the things I find 0:22:45.784 --> 0:22:47.224 deeply depressing about it. 0:22:47.264 --> 0:22:50.664 And that's what the crisis pr person behind all of 0:22:50.664 --> 0:22:53.584 this actually said in one of the And the reason 0:22:53.584 --> 0:22:55.424 we have these texts, I should say, is because they 0:22:55.464 --> 0:23:00.424 were subpoened. So it's the genius of Blake Lively in 0:23:00.504 --> 0:23:02.384 all of this is to go, I'm going to get 0:23:02.384 --> 0:23:05.504