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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and Waders

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me and Friedman in your ears from

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Speaker 3: our sister podcast out Loud, and today we are sharing

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Speaker 3: with spill listeners an emergency episode.

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Speaker 1: That we recorded on out Loud.

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Speaker 3: We're Holly Wayne Right, Jesse Stevens, and I unpack all

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Speaker 3: the allegations that Blake Lively has made against Justin Baldoni

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Speaker 3: her It Ends with Us co star.

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Speaker 1: Have a listen and enjoy your holidays.

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Speaker 4: Hello out louders. It's Monday, the twenty third of December,

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Speaker 4: and I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Weir Friedman, and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 5: And we were not meant to be here right now,

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Speaker 5: but alas.

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Speaker 4: We are here because we can bury anyone inside a

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Speaker 4: Hollywood smear machine. That is the New York Times headline

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Speaker 4: that we definitely had to be here right now, Jesse Stevens,

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Speaker 4: because you might remember you definitely remember bits of it.

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Speaker 4: It was one of the stories of the year that

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Speaker 4: one of the most watched movies of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 4: It Ends with Us, came alongside the mass cancelation of

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Speaker 4: its star, Blake Lively. The pressure that accompanied that movie

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Speaker 4: was notable for the fact that the star and producer

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Speaker 4: Lively and its other star and director, Justin Baldoni, went

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Speaker 4: to great and unusual lengths not to be seen together,

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Speaker 4: to be interviewed together, to show any of the usual

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Speaker 4: camaraderie required of co creators of a big film. Lively,

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Speaker 4: the rumors went, wanted to promote the movie as if

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Speaker 4: it were a flowery rom com. Baldoni supposedly loudly insisted

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Speaker 4: that he wanted its serious subject matter, coercive control and

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Speaker 4: domestic violence, to be front and center. Lively was criticized

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Speaker 4: for trivializing a serious topic, for being a tone deaf

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Speaker 4: self promoter, for launching a haircare brand. The backlash was huge,

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Speaker 4: and then yesterday The New York Times reported that Lively

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Speaker 4: is taking legal action against Baldooni, accusing him of sexual

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Speaker 4: harassment and an effort to destroy her reputation. It's a

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Speaker 4: story that has massive implications for I'd say almost every

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Speaker 4: celebrity story you see on the internet. Mia, what did

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Speaker 4: the story the one with the we can bury anyone

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Speaker 4: headline allege I.

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Speaker 3: Think Jesse's going to take us through some of the

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Speaker 3: allegations in more detail, but.

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Speaker 1: Overall, it alleged serious misconduct on the set.

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Speaker 3: Now, what's important to understand is that Justin was not

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Speaker 3: only the director and the producer and the co star,

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Speaker 3: he also was a co owner of the studio that

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Speaker 3: was making the film, So even though Blake Lively was

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Speaker 3: more famous, he had huge power in the context of

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Speaker 3: making this film. So it alleged sexual harassment. And then

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Speaker 3: also it detailed that when Blake Lively complained about it

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Speaker 3: and insisted on a meeting with all the stakeholders before

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Speaker 3: she returned to filming in January this year, after the writers' strike,

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Speaker 3: Justin Baldoni hired a crisis pr to smear her, which

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Speaker 3: we're also going to get into in a moment. But

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Speaker 3: let's just rewind to August to remind ourselves what this

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Speaker 3: movie was about and why there was so much controversy

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Speaker 3: when it was released, because it was only released a

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Speaker 3: few months ago, and it's about to come onto streaming,

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Speaker 3: or I think it's just come on to streaming. The

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Speaker 3: movie is based on the Colleen Hoover book that was

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Speaker 3: also called It Ends with Us and It tells the

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Speaker 3: story of a florist called Lily Bloom played by Lively,

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Speaker 3: who navigates the romance with a neurosurgeon called Ryle Kincaid

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Speaker 3: that becomes abusive. That's the essence of the film. The

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Speaker 3: three of us went to see it, it was already

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Speaker 3: completely swamped in controversy. I really liked the film. I

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Speaker 3: thought Blake Lively was fantastic. Yeah, I thought it was

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Speaker 3: not the best film in the world, but I thought

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Speaker 3: it was really good. And I was surprised the controversy

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Speaker 3: that had completely engulfed this film. It seemed really out

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Speaker 3: of whack. So what was the controversy. Well, there's a

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Speaker 3: few different elements to it, but it was basically all

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Speaker 3: about Blake Lively being inappropriate during the promotional part of

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Speaker 3: the tour. So it wasn't about the actual movie itself.

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Speaker 3: It was about how it was promoted. There was an

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Speaker 3: interview where she encouraged fans to grab your friends, wear

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Speaker 3: your florals, and head out to see it, which kind

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Speaker 3: of suggested that it was a lighthearted viewing experience. There

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Speaker 3: was no trigger warning at the beginning of it, so

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Speaker 3: there was a whole big debate about trigger warnings, and

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Speaker 3: the whole marketing campaign was criticized as tone death given

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Speaker 3: how serious the themes were in the movie about domestic abuse,

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Speaker 3: and that all landed on Blake Lively. Now, there were

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Speaker 3: some things she did during the tour that particularly made

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Speaker 3: her a target of criticism, like she was launching a

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Speaker 3: hair care line at the time. She also promoted her

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Speaker 3: beverage brand, which was called Betty Booze, and many people

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Speaker 3: said that alcohol is often connected with domestic violence, so

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Speaker 3: that's insensitive, and so it was seen that she was

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Speaker 3: just not taking it seriously, which led to this big

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Speaker 3: backlash against her. And you'd have to say, one of

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Speaker 3: the worst cancelations that we've seen in a long time

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Speaker 3: for reasons that seemed really spurious.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I agree, because back at the time we talked

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Speaker 5: about it and it felt as though the facts we

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Speaker 5: had in front of us were not proportionate to the

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Speaker 5: avalanche of hate that Blake Lively was getting, particularly on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: Maybe that's because that's where I leave most of the time,

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Speaker 5: and we were getting these leaks. So the leaks that

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Speaker 5: we were getting were that there was something that said

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Speaker 5: justin Baldoni lingered too long on a kiss, he asked

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Speaker 5: how much she weighed because he had a former back

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Speaker 5: injury and was worried about picking her up, like weird,

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Speaker 5: weird stuff.

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Speaker 3: None of those took hold, so there were a few

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Speaker 3: rumors of was it uncomfortable on set. The other thing

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Speaker 3: that really came out was Blake had taken over and

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Speaker 3: she'd insisted on doing her own edit that somehow Ryan

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Speaker 3: Reynolds got involved and was rewriting a few scenes. So

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Speaker 3: the image that came across through the press tour was

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Speaker 3: that she was not taking it seriously, was dominating an

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Speaker 3: a diva on set, and that he was a victim

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Speaker 3: of all this. Because, in case you're not familiar with

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Speaker 3: Justin Baldoni, his most famous role as an actor was

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Speaker 3: in Jane the Virgin, and he's really fushioned himself over

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Speaker 3: the last few years as a feminist and as a

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Speaker 3: podcast called Man Enough, where he questions toxic masculinity.

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Speaker 4: He had a viral ted talk about it like he's

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Speaker 4: very much he's that.

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Speaker 3: Guy, a champion of women. That was his vibe.

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Speaker 4: And among all these rumors, what was very clear, the

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Speaker 4: whole like smoke fire thing is that they had definitely

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Speaker 4: fallen out. There was no question about that. You know,

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Speaker 4: the other cast members had stopped following him on Instagram

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Speaker 4: and seemed to very much be siding with her. As

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Speaker 4: I said at the beginning, they weren't photographed together, that

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Speaker 4: they didn't do any promo. It was kind of like

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Speaker 4: dueling press tours, which is very unusual.

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Speaker 5: And Baldoni at the time he spoke to Today and

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Speaker 5: obviously addressing some of the creative differences, and he said,

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Speaker 5: I'm a best idea wins person and I always have

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Speaker 5: been to a fault, sometimes to a point where at

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Speaker 5: times I think I've had people wonder if I know

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Speaker 5: what I'm doing or if I have a point of view,

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Speaker 5: because I'm so willing to have my vision changed. I

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Speaker 5: don't believe that inspiration or creativity comes through one person.

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Speaker 5: On the night of the premiere, he was saying, this

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Speaker 5: isn't about me, It's a night for Blake, It's for Colleen.

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Speaker 5: I'm so grateful we're here, and again it was clear

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Speaker 5: that neither of those women were speaking to him.

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Speaker 4: What happened on the weekend is that Blake Lively has

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Speaker 4: filed a legal complaint that presents her side of the

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Speaker 4: story to all of the things that we were just discussing,

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Speaker 4: and Jesse's going to tell us about them in a minute,

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Speaker 4: but first shortbreak.

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Speaker 5: So, the allegations of misconduct on set are pretty damning.

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Speaker 5: In terms of physical boundaries and violations. There are allegations

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Speaker 5: that he improvised unwanted kissing scenes. He would enter This

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Speaker 5: is Baldoni would enter her makeup trailer uninvited while she

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Speaker 5: was undressed, including while she was breastfeeding. In terms of

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Speaker 5: sexual harassment, Baldoni and Jamie Heath, he was a producer

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Speaker 5: and co owner, there are allegations that they would describe

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Speaker 5: their genitalia on set. Baldoni would frequently refer to his

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Speaker 5: past porn addiction and describe previous sexual encounters where he

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Speaker 5: said he may or may not have received consent. Now

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Speaker 5: we know that Lively made a series of requests part

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Speaker 5: way through filming. They actually had this all hands meeting

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Speaker 5: which included her husband, Ryan Reynolds, and it was held

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Speaker 5: to address Baldoni and Jamie Heaths alleged inappropriate conduct.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, this was interesting because this was like she

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Speaker 3: had Ryan there as her support person, and it was

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Speaker 3: after the writer's strike, so they'd only been filming for

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Speaker 3: six weeks. Then that was the writer's strike and she

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Speaker 3: had this meeting and she said, I'm not coming back

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Speaker 3: unless we have this meeting. She included Sony, who's the distributor,

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Speaker 3: and all these different people. So there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of people at that meeting, which means that there will

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Speaker 3: be a lot of you know.

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Speaker 1: And none of this was disputed at the time.

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Speaker 5: So there was a list of thirty things. They're quite

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Speaker 5: revealing some of Lively's requests, and these were, as you say,

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Speaker 5: they were confirmed because it's a document. Her request were

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Speaker 5: that Baldoni would stop asking her about religious beliefs, stop

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Speaker 5: asking her trainer about her weight, she was four months

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Speaker 5: pardon with her fourth baby, and stopped claiming to be

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Speaker 5: able to speak to her dead father. There are allegations

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Speaker 5: that Baldoni improvised while on set. So in one scene,

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Speaker 5: they weren't miked up. It was just to be filmed.

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Speaker 5: It was just a visual scene, and Lively claims that

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Speaker 5: as himself, Baldoni leaned in and slowly dragged his lips

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Speaker 5: from her ear to her neck and said it smells

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Speaker 5: so good. It says that when Lively objected to his actions,

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Speaker 5: Baldoni retorted, I'm not even attracted to you. Baldoni added,

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Speaker 5: this is an allegation improvised sexual content and nude scenes,

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Speaker 5: and he fought to have a scene where the characters

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Speaker 5: climaxed at the same time on their wedding night and

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Speaker 5: told Lively that he and his partner always did and

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Speaker 5: allegedly pressed her on whether that was the case with

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Speaker 5: her husband, and she says she was very uncomfortable by

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Speaker 5: that conversation. There's an allegation about the childbirth scene which

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Speaker 5: is particularly unsettling. It wasn't agreed that she would be

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Speaker 5: naked for it, but then when she got on set,

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Speaker 5: she says that he insisted she be naked. They compromised

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Speaker 5: that she would be naked from the waist down, but

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Speaker 5: the set wasn't closed and in the end his friend

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Speaker 5: came in to play the role of the obgyn.

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Speaker 3: I think this is possibly the most chilling thing because

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Speaker 3: what's so illuminating about reading will link to it if

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Speaker 3: anybody wants to look at it, which I think you should.

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Speaker 3: But you learn a lot about Hollywood and how sex

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Speaker 3: scenes work right, and there are things like nudity writers

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Speaker 3: where everybody agrees what the parameters before you go into

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Speaker 3: a scene, things like closed sex when there's nudity, so

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Speaker 3: only essential people are there. Monitors are turned off so

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Speaker 3: other people can't look from other rooms and even film you.

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Speaker 3: So she was in stirrups. She had a little bit

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Speaker 3: of fabric just literally covering her and the role of

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Speaker 3: the gynecologist. They were like between her legs. And also

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Speaker 3: another owner of his studio, Wayfarirer, had just flown in

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Speaker 3: to visit the set on that day for the first time.

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Speaker 1: Like it is so gross and creepy.

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Speaker 4: It also is clearly from this very long list of

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Speaker 4: requests clear that this set was a shit show, right

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Speaker 4: because one of them is also stop having hours long

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Speaker 4: meetings where Baldoni cries and no more pressing from Baldoni

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Speaker 4: to sage any of Blake Live's employees, Like this is

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Speaker 4: batshit what's going on on that set, And it seems

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Speaker 4: that she's very much trying to say, let's get back

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Speaker 4: to a professional set.

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Speaker 5: And they're at claims as well that when you know

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Speaker 5: there were certain moments where Lively was made to feel uncomfortable,

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Speaker 5: other women from the set came up and said, I've

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Speaker 5: also had that experience so the allegations are that it

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Speaker 5: was not just her, she was trying to protect the

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Speaker 5: whole set.

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Speaker 2: The last thing I'll say, and I could go on

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Speaker 2: and on about what's in this.

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Speaker 5: Complaint, but the last thing is she alleges that there

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Speaker 5: was a clear marketing place that was distributed to the

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Speaker 5: cast and everyone involved in marketing it about how to

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Speaker 5: promote the film. This was from Sony and they said

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Speaker 5: they wanted to focus on hope and resilience and not

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Speaker 5: position this as a domestic violence film. They say that

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Speaker 5: Baldoni went against this, and that's massive because at the

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Speaker 5: time everyone was going, why is she not acknowledging that

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Speaker 5: this is a film about domestic violence. Baldoni was over

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Speaker 5: here with a link in his Instagram bio to help victims.

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Speaker 5: Everything he said in his messaging was acknowledging victims, and

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Speaker 5: this made Lively look really bad.

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Speaker 4: Well, as it turns out, or at least what's alleged

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Speaker 4: he here is that that Pivot Jesse was a very

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Speaker 4: deliberate one to smear Blake Lively because Baldoni and his

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Speaker 4: team knew what was coming. So to the smear campaign,

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Speaker 4: and why I say that this is a story that's

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Speaker 4: not just about Blake Lively and just In Baldoni, but

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Speaker 4: gives an in into what is really behind a lot

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Speaker 4: of what we believe right on social media. So all

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Speaker 4: those tiktoks and stories that we talked about at the

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Speaker 4: beginning that were being shared and reshared as facts that

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Speaker 4: Lively was a mean girl, that Lively tried to hijack

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Speaker 4: the movie, that Lively just wanted to promote a hair

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Speaker 4: care brand. What's alleged in this document is there was

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Speaker 4: nothing organic about those stories, and that the PR firm

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Speaker 4: hired by Baldoni when he realized that Reynolds had blocked

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Speaker 4: him on Instagram, Baldonian, his producing partner, hired this firm

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Speaker 4: who were expert in the dark arts of smearing, starting rumors,

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Speaker 4: and fanning the flames of negativity. Some of the tactics

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Speaker 4: that are alleged to have happened are that the PR

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Speaker 4: team would boost negative stories about Lively, branding her as

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Speaker 4: difficult and tone death. That contractors were allegedly hired to

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Speaker 4: dominate social media with untraceable tactics like social manipulation and

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Speaker 4: proactive fan posting. A hired gun helped amplify negative narrative online,

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Speaker 4: including on platforms like TikTok and Reddit, and basically all

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Speaker 4: these threads of theories started being sown and then amplified.

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Speaker 4: Now it's actually impossible, even by the investigative journalists at

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Speaker 4: The New York Times and actually by the legal team

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Speaker 4: to be able to absolutely identify exactly what the amplification did.

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Speaker 4: As we know, the Internet is sprawling and enormous. But

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Speaker 4: the negative stories that were planted were planted very deliberately

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Speaker 4: and then encouraged. So this tells you everything about how

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Speaker 4: we the public were manipulated in this story.

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Speaker 5: In August, there were two things we talked about. The

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Speaker 5: first was something that we've referred to as the dig,

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Speaker 5: which is what happens when someone is in the process

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Speaker 5: of cancelation, and we were saying that it's again back

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Speaker 5: to it being disproportionate. Is that people started yelling about

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Speaker 5: her plantation wedding, about how Reynolds cheated on scullet Jo

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Speaker 5: Hansen with Lively. She's always been rude. Everyone on Gossip

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Speaker 5: Girl hated her. There were weird videos of people gifting

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Speaker 5: her a bracelet on a red carpet and she would

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Speaker 5: not accept it, or something like.

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Speaker 3: The one that got the most traction was and I

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Speaker 3: remember thinking at the time, this is weird. Without wanting

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Speaker 3: to we definitely had our doubts and we spoke about

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Speaker 3: this on the show, as did others. That interview with

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Speaker 3: a Swedish journalist entertainment journalist called Christie Flaher which came

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Speaker 3: out where it showed her interviewing Blake Lively for a

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Speaker 3: different movie I think back in twenty fifteen, and it

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Speaker 3: showed Blake being a little bit rude, and for some

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Speaker 3: reason she posted that with the headline the interview that

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Speaker 3: made me want to quit my job. That was in

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. That interview happened, and yet it came out.

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Speaker 3: Now why did it come out? Well, you could say

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Speaker 3: that organically that journalist was just trying to ride the

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Speaker 3: wave of hate against Blake Lively. But what was revealed

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Speaker 3: in this is that this journalist had worked with the

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Speaker 3: PR company before because they'd also represented Johnny Depp in

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Speaker 3: his trial against Amber Heard. And we know that some

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Speaker 3: really dodgy things happened then in terms of how Amber

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Speaker 3: Heard was trolled and the volume of internet hate towards her,

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Speaker 3: so much of which was seen to be manufactured. So

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Speaker 3: again it wasn't organic. And there's a word called astroturfing,

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Speaker 3: which I learned, which is basically means you think something

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Speaker 3: is organic it looks like natural grass, but when you.

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Speaker 1: Look closer you see that it's artificial.

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Speaker 3: And what that means is that these things are planted

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Speaker 3: and then amplified, either by bots or by these agencies.

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Speaker 3: That's what they do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so in terms of being planted, I think that's

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Speaker 5: an important point because in the investigation it sort of

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Speaker 5: said this isn't bots. I always imagined it was bots.

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Speaker 5: But at the time, I was posting on TikTok about

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Speaker 5: the Blake Lively thing, and I was noticing that every

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Speaker 5: time I posted something that was defensive, it got no reach.

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Speaker 5: So I remember talking about this on the show, only

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Speaker 5: a few hundred views, and then I posted one thing

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Speaker 5: that was cheeky that had something about Blake Lively's cancelation.

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Speaker 5: It actually went against it, but all the metadata would

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Speaker 5: have suggested that I was about to go her blew up,

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Speaker 5: and it seemed that if you were being critical of

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Speaker 5: Blake Lively, your content was on steroids. As someone who

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Speaker 5: consumes a lot of social media content, it is not

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Speaker 5: often that you get a unanimous view on anything. But

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Speaker 5: you went onto these media platforms and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 5: it was like wall to wall. Everyone hated her. And

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Speaker 5: let's be clear, if you saw someone pop up and

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Speaker 5: have a go at Blake Lively, that was probably legitimate.

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Speaker 5: But where they were getting the information, how their brain

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Speaker 5: had been marinating in content kind of contributed to that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it creates a lens.

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Speaker 3: And I should say, Christy Flower has come out and

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Speaker 3: said she has nothing to do with the alleged smear campaign,

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Speaker 3: but she was exactly what you were talking about, Jesse.

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Speaker 3: She was being opportunistic. So we live in the attention

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Speaker 3: economy and if you wanted to go viral, everybody looks

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Speaker 3: at the numbers who makes content and in the media,

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Speaker 3: so you knew that if you did something that was

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Speaker 3: against Blake Lively, it would go off. So it's important

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Speaker 3: to understand how something can be both organic and manipulated

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Speaker 3: because people will say, but.

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Speaker 1: Hang on, Blake Lively.

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Speaker 3: They didn't make her try and promote her hair care line,

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Speaker 3: they didn't make her reference alcohol, they didn't make her

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Speaker 3: wear florals. But the thing is that it's the volume,

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Speaker 3: So you can start to believe, oh, everybody hates Blake Lively,

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Speaker 3: and when you hear enough of that, it does impact

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Speaker 3: on how you view someone.

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Speaker 5: And there was also I remember looking at interviews where

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Speaker 5: she seemed really insensitive about the subject matter of the film,

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Speaker 5: but it was so purposefully cut, and if you watch

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Speaker 5: the whole interview, that's not how it seemed. And then

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Speaker 5: you were getting Justin Baldoni with these incredible cuts of

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Speaker 5: him saying something really eloquent about domestic violence. So it

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Speaker 5: did seem that, yeah, I suppose that that is allegedly

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Speaker 5: part of the smearing.

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Speaker 4: This is where we can bury anyone. Headline comes in

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Speaker 4: because in the New York Times investigation, there are literal

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Speaker 4: screenshots of text messages between Baldoni's people and the PR

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Speaker 4: people saying exactly that that they can bury anybody with

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Speaker 4: enough ammunition, and that they needed to do it to

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Speaker 4: get Baldoni's story across. We're going to be back in

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Speaker 4: a minute, but first a little break.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about the effect of how cancelation

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Speaker 3: works and how it can be manipulated, because having experienced

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Speaker 3: it a number of times organically, certainly not to my knowledge,

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Speaker 3: with a calculated or paid smear campaign by a publicist,

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Speaker 3: things gained traction, and then everybody wants to be part

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Speaker 3: of a pylon, right, That's why it's called a dogpile

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Speaker 3: or a pylon, and there becomes status in reinforcing the

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Speaker 3: accepted narrative, which in this case was that Justin Baldoni

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Speaker 3: was a hero and cared about domestic violence victims, and

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Speaker 3: Blake Lively was an entitled diva who cared about nothing

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Speaker 3: other than her hair and looking pretty.

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Speaker 4: And because of that that sort of narrative about who

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Speaker 4: Blake Lively was, she's a prime candidate for this, right,

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Speaker 4: because the thing that's very depressing about this story is

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Speaker 4: that we're all being manipulated all the time right on

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Speaker 4: social media, and we think we're having our own thoughts

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Speaker 4: about things and going, yes, I see, But what this

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00:22:04,824 --> 00:22:07,984
Speaker 4: shows very clearly is that we're being As Lively said

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Speaker 4: in her statement about it, she said she wanted to

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Speaker 4: show behind the curtain of how these things start. But

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Speaker 4: one of the things that we've got to ask ourselves

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Speaker 4: is why are we so invested in thinking awful things

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Speaker 4: about women and women like Lively? You know, she in particular,

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Speaker 4: I guess she is blonde and beautiful, married to a

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Speaker 4: rich man. She is a striver We've talked about on

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Speaker 4: this show lots of times. Is the worst thing you

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Speaker 4: can be. She has her own businesses, she tries really hard,

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Speaker 4: like she promoted the shit out of that movie, and

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Speaker 4: it's almost like the world was dying to believe this

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Speaker 4: about her, which is one of the things I find

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Speaker 4: deeply depressing about it.

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Speaker 5: And that's what the crisis pr person behind all of

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Speaker 5: this actually said in one of the And the reason

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Speaker 5: we have these texts, I should say, is because they

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Speaker 5: were subpoened. So it's the genius of Blake Lively in

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Speaker 5: all of this is to go, I'm going to get

401
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Speaker 5: all the evidence I need to show what really happened,

402
00:23:05,864 --> 00:23:09,984
Speaker 5: which is that you have Melissa Nathan saying basically, I

403
00:23:10,024 --> 00:23:13,144
Speaker 5: can't believe how quickly people just want to hate a woman.

404
00:23:13,464 --> 00:23:16,384
Speaker 5: I'm seeing all this positive justin Baldoni's stuff, and I

405
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Speaker 5: don't even agree with half of it. So it was

406
00:23:18,784 --> 00:23:22,824
Speaker 5: like they lit the fire and then when it blew up,

407
00:23:22,904 --> 00:23:26,304
Speaker 5: they didn't need to do a thing because people.

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00:23:26,904 --> 00:23:28,824
Speaker 2: Want to hate a woman.

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Speaker 5: And the irony of this entire story is that it's

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Speaker 5: an allegory for domestic violence in the context of a

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Speaker 5: film about domestic violence, which is that people were so

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Speaker 5: ready to jump on a woman who maybe didn't use

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Speaker 5: the right words, or was profiting or something. And except

414
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Speaker 5: that this man was a feminist ally. It's almost Shakespearean

415
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Speaker 5: in that in order to defend his image it's a

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Speaker 5: feminist ally, he had to bury a female co star.

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Speaker 5: And we were so happy to follow him there and

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00:24:07,704 --> 00:24:12,664
Speaker 5: to go not only follow him there, like we didn't

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Speaker 5: look at all the facts, which is that none of

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00:24:15,584 --> 00:24:19,704
Speaker 5: the cast were on speaking terms with him anymore, Colleen

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Speaker 5: who all on her side, yes, And we were so

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Speaker 5: happy to follow him there. And I think that there's

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Speaker 5: a difference between doing something and expressing the doing of something.

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00:24:31,304 --> 00:24:32,584
Speaker 2: This speaks to something that.

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00:24:32,504 --> 00:24:36,624
Speaker 5: Feels very very true, which is that there are people

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Speaker 5: who use the right words, who have the right link

427
00:24:38,704 --> 00:24:43,424
Speaker 5: in their Instagram bio. But that is not the same

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Speaker 5: as being the thing you're purporting to being, which is

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Speaker 5: that he's saying he supports women and that this story

430
00:24:51,064 --> 00:24:55,904
Speaker 5: was really important to him. It's just an incredible, like,

431
00:24:56,384 --> 00:24:59,504
Speaker 5: look at potential if it's true hypocrisy.

432
00:24:59,744 --> 00:25:02,384
Speaker 2: I think this story has many places to go.

433
00:25:02,624 --> 00:25:07,064
Speaker 4: And today one of the pr Wizards involved in this.

434
00:25:07,304 --> 00:25:10,824
Speaker 4: Jennifer Abel has some messages that are allegedly her who's

435
00:25:10,864 --> 00:25:13,024
Speaker 4: saying that those messages that we were just talking about,

436
00:25:13,064 --> 00:25:16,144
Speaker 4: Jesse were cherry picked and that you didn't see others.

437
00:25:16,184 --> 00:25:17,864
Speaker 4: And I'm sure that's true. So there's are many more

438
00:25:17,904 --> 00:25:20,944
Speaker 4: places to go. But your point, Jesse is so spot on,

439
00:25:21,024 --> 00:25:23,784
Speaker 4: because I remember at the time a lot of people

440
00:25:23,784 --> 00:25:26,104
Speaker 4: have a lot of love for Baldoni and he was

441
00:25:26,144 --> 00:25:28,984
Speaker 4: seen to be doing all the right things. But I'll

442
00:25:29,024 --> 00:25:30,904
Speaker 4: just listened to the interview with him that he did

443
00:25:30,944 --> 00:25:33,944
Speaker 4: on How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, and the guy,

444
00:25:34,424 --> 00:25:37,424
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm just going to say it is insufferable,

445
00:25:37,984 --> 00:25:41,824
Speaker 4: like he is insufferable. He doesn't obviously go to lively

446
00:25:42,384 --> 00:25:45,584
Speaker 4: in that interview, and it happened before the legal letter,

447
00:25:46,224 --> 00:25:49,264
Speaker 4: but he described the filming as devastatingly difficult for a

448
00:25:49,304 --> 00:25:51,984
Speaker 4: number of reasons. He made very clear on the record

449
00:25:51,984 --> 00:25:53,584
Speaker 4: that he thought there should have been a trigger warning,

450
00:25:53,744 --> 00:25:58,704
Speaker 4: like it was very clear. But the whole feeling about it,

451
00:25:59,184 --> 00:26:02,904
Speaker 4: Elizabeth Day barely gets a word in, is that he

452
00:26:03,064 --> 00:26:07,464
Speaker 4: was lecturing about victimhood and we are always saying that

453
00:26:07,504 --> 00:26:10,264
Speaker 4: we want men to talk about domestic violence, and we do.

454
00:26:10,864 --> 00:26:14,504
Speaker 4: But we want men to talk to men about domestic violence.

455
00:26:15,024 --> 00:26:19,384
Speaker 4: We don't want them to lecture women about it. And

456
00:26:19,464 --> 00:26:21,504
Speaker 4: I know people have problems with the movie, and people

457
00:26:21,504 --> 00:26:24,064
Speaker 4: have problems with the source material of the book, but

458
00:26:24,224 --> 00:26:26,584
Speaker 4: this movie was aimed at women. The book was aimed

459
00:26:26,584 --> 00:26:29,664
Speaker 4: at women, right. It's the way that they chose to

460
00:26:29,704 --> 00:26:32,824
Speaker 4: promote it that Baldoni then flipped in order to virtue

461
00:26:32,864 --> 00:26:35,704
Speaker 4: signal because he knew basically that he was going to

462
00:26:35,744 --> 00:26:38,384
Speaker 4: be taken down. What's also interested in all this is

463
00:26:38,424 --> 00:26:41,824
Speaker 4: that Ryan Reynold and Blake Lively and the power that

464
00:26:41,864 --> 00:26:44,184
Speaker 4: they wield in Hollywood is probably always going to come

465
00:26:44,224 --> 00:26:47,304
Speaker 4: for him, right, So he knew that was coming, so

466
00:26:47,384 --> 00:26:51,704
Speaker 4: he wanted to position himself as the perfect allocate ally

467
00:26:51,784 --> 00:26:56,384
Speaker 4: and advocate, and he's there lecturing women about victimhood and violence.

468
00:26:56,904 --> 00:26:59,984
Speaker 4: That's not what we want from the guys. I mean,

469
00:27:00,024 --> 00:27:02,144
Speaker 4: I can't speak for all women, but.

470
00:27:02,184 --> 00:27:05,024
Speaker 3: Can we talk about timing for a second, because it's

471
00:27:05,064 --> 00:27:07,104
Speaker 3: pretty sobering to go online and look at some of

472
00:27:07,144 --> 00:27:11,664
Speaker 3: the reactions to this, where people are just they want

473
00:27:11,704 --> 00:27:13,784
Speaker 3: to twist it and still make it about Blake and

474
00:27:13,784 --> 00:27:16,984
Speaker 3: they're not interested in facts or perspectives.

475
00:27:17,784 --> 00:27:18,584
Speaker 2: Why now?

476
00:27:19,184 --> 00:27:19,704
Speaker 1: Why now?

477
00:27:19,744 --> 00:27:23,344
Speaker 3: It's pre Christmas. Some people have said, well, it's just

478
00:27:23,384 --> 00:27:27,064
Speaker 3: come out on Netflix. It's a calculated move. She wants

479
00:27:27,104 --> 00:27:30,104
Speaker 3: to just try and salvage the damage to her reputation.

480
00:27:30,584 --> 00:27:34,464
Speaker 3: But she didn't say anything back then like this. Everyone

481
00:27:34,504 --> 00:27:37,224
Speaker 3: had forgotten about it. Essentially, she'd come back.

482
00:27:37,624 --> 00:27:40,984
Speaker 5: Why now, it would have been totally lost. If she

483
00:27:41,064 --> 00:27:43,664
Speaker 5: said something back then, she would have sounded And this

484
00:27:43,784 --> 00:27:47,264
Speaker 5: is also such a great example of gas lighting. She

485
00:27:47,424 --> 00:27:50,344
Speaker 5: would have been told she was crazy. If she said

486
00:27:50,344 --> 00:27:54,344
Speaker 5: at the time that there is a manufactured effort to

487
00:27:54,424 --> 00:27:58,864
Speaker 5: bury me, people would have gone, you are grasping, how embarrassing,

488
00:27:58,984 --> 00:27:59,624
Speaker 5: blah blah.

489
00:27:59,464 --> 00:28:01,824
Speaker 3: Blah, and that she was making it all about her

490
00:28:01,864 --> 00:28:04,864
Speaker 3: instead of centering the centering victims.

491
00:28:04,904 --> 00:28:06,984
Speaker 5: It's about to come out on Netflix. I'm not sure

492
00:28:07,024 --> 00:28:09,064
Speaker 5: if that's just in the US or if that's here too.

493
00:28:09,344 --> 00:28:13,104
Speaker 5: And just in the last week I started seeing stories

494
00:28:13,104 --> 00:28:15,984
Speaker 5: about Blake Lively pop up again. I saw a story

495
00:28:16,104 --> 00:28:19,544
Speaker 5: about something Ryan Reynolds had said about how he and

496
00:28:19,624 --> 00:28:22,064
Speaker 5: Blake grew up working class, and then people were going

497
00:28:22,064 --> 00:28:25,944
Speaker 5: into Blake Lively's childhood and going, that's not working class,

498
00:28:25,944 --> 00:28:32,144
Speaker 5: how embarrassing? Yeah, were they anticipating another wave, that's the question.

499
00:28:32,584 --> 00:28:35,904
Speaker 5: And the other reason why I think it's now is

500
00:28:35,984 --> 00:28:39,264
Speaker 5: because of how long this takes. In order to do

501
00:28:39,304 --> 00:28:44,104
Speaker 5: this properly in order to get lawyers do the research subpoena.

502
00:28:44,304 --> 00:28:50,624
Speaker 5: Those text messages prove it, they needed to buide their time.

503
00:28:50,824 --> 00:28:54,904
Speaker 5: And it's important to remember Blake Lively is worth about

504
00:28:54,904 --> 00:28:59,784
Speaker 5: thirty million dollars. She's rich, but she's not like the

505
00:28:59,904 --> 00:29:02,904
Speaker 5: richest person in Hollywood, Ryan Reynolds, is worth more than

506
00:29:02,944 --> 00:29:05,904
Speaker 5: three hundred million, because he hasn't had these business ventures.

507
00:29:05,584 --> 00:29:08,624
Speaker 4: Right and also intensely well connected.

508
00:29:09,224 --> 00:29:12,544
Speaker 5: Yes, so I think it took because you can look

509
00:29:12,544 --> 00:29:16,184
Speaker 5: at this case and go, what does Blake Lively want?

510
00:29:16,224 --> 00:29:17,704
Speaker 2: This isn't going to be about damages.

511
00:29:17,784 --> 00:29:21,944
Speaker 5: This isn't about sending Justin Baldoni to jail, like, nothing

512
00:29:21,984 --> 00:29:22,264
Speaker 5: about that.

513
00:29:22,384 --> 00:29:23,184
Speaker 1: It's not criminal.

514
00:29:23,304 --> 00:29:26,544
Speaker 5: She wants to correct the record, and in order you

515
00:29:26,624 --> 00:29:28,344
Speaker 5: need to have power and you need to have the

516
00:29:28,384 --> 00:29:31,464
Speaker 5: financial means, and she does. And I think that's why

517
00:29:31,464 --> 00:29:36,544
Speaker 5: she's doing it because imagine how many actresses have been

518
00:29:36,584 --> 00:29:39,344
Speaker 5: buried and have never been able to tell their story.

519
00:29:39,864 --> 00:29:41,984
Speaker 3: Well, that's the rule of cancelation, isn't it. You can't

520
00:29:41,984 --> 00:29:44,824
Speaker 3: defend yourself, well it's happening, otherwise it makes it worse.

521
00:29:45,224 --> 00:29:47,584
Speaker 3: But the other thing to note is that there's a

522
00:29:47,624 --> 00:29:52,824
Speaker 3: civil complaint. But then there's also the New York Times investigation.

523
00:29:53,144 --> 00:29:55,744
Speaker 3: The lead journalist on this was the same journalists that

524
00:29:55,784 --> 00:30:00,424
Speaker 3: exposed Harvey Weinstein, Megan Towey. And they don't just publish

525
00:30:00,584 --> 00:30:03,184
Speaker 3: what someone else wants them to publish. They go and

526
00:30:03,384 --> 00:30:08,024
Speaker 3: corroborate everything. They do their own extensive reporting out, making

527
00:30:08,064 --> 00:30:11,344
Speaker 3: sure that all the sources can be confirmed. So in

528
00:30:11,384 --> 00:30:13,984
Speaker 3: many ways, the timing was more about what The New

529
00:30:14,064 --> 00:30:16,304
Speaker 3: York Times was going to do. But the other thing

530
00:30:16,304 --> 00:30:19,224
Speaker 3: to remember, when we're talking about power and money, the

531
00:30:19,304 --> 00:30:22,704
Speaker 3: guy who is the financial backer of Wayfarer, which is

532
00:30:22,784 --> 00:30:27,104
Speaker 3: the studio that Jamie Heath and Justin Baldonia partners in,

533
00:30:27,864 --> 00:30:31,944
Speaker 3: is like a billionaire, so he's also got unlimited funds.

534
00:30:32,384 --> 00:30:35,104
Speaker 3: He has a lot more money than Ryan Randalls and

535
00:30:35,104 --> 00:30:37,704
Speaker 3: Blake Lively put together. So it's not a case of

536
00:30:38,184 --> 00:30:42,304
Speaker 3: Blake Lively punching down the complexity of power. Dynamics on

537
00:30:42,504 --> 00:30:46,384
Speaker 3: both the set and in Hollywood aren't just about who's

538
00:30:46,384 --> 00:30:47,984
Speaker 3: the most famous in the Daily Mail.

539
00:30:48,384 --> 00:30:51,504
Speaker 4: You know what, though, And this is A more pragmatic

540
00:30:51,584 --> 00:30:53,784
Speaker 4: reason too, is they let the movie do its thing.

541
00:30:53,944 --> 00:30:57,384
Speaker 4: That movie was really successful. Yeah, you know, so she

542
00:30:57,424 --> 00:31:00,824
Speaker 4: would have been contractually obliged to promote that movie. Also,

543
00:31:00,904 --> 00:31:03,784
Speaker 4: she clearly wanted to, and she didn't want to promote

544
00:31:03,784 --> 00:31:06,784
Speaker 4: it with him, which is again very unusual. But she

545
00:31:06,984 --> 00:31:09,824
Speaker 4: promoted the shit out of that movie while all this

546
00:31:09,984 --> 00:31:13,144
Speaker 4: was going on. It was very successful, It's had its

547
00:31:13,224 --> 00:31:16,984
Speaker 4: period of box office time, and now you can sit

548
00:31:17,024 --> 00:31:19,104
Speaker 4: there and reflect on that that was all happening in

549
00:31:19,144 --> 00:31:21,904
Speaker 4: real time to her. It does seem extraordinary to me,

550
00:31:21,984 --> 00:31:25,104
Speaker 4: though I know that Baldoni has very powerful backer their

551
00:31:25,144 --> 00:31:29,864
Speaker 4: met of course, but that he ever thought that they

552
00:31:29,944 --> 00:31:34,784
Speaker 4: weren't going to do this Because Ryan Reynolds, Blake Lively

553
00:31:35,504 --> 00:31:37,504
Speaker 4: Reynolds is one of the most powerful men in Hollywood.

554
00:31:37,584 --> 00:31:40,344
Speaker 4: Deadpool was the second biggest movie of the year. He

555
00:31:40,464 --> 00:31:42,024
Speaker 4: makes a lot of people a lot of money. They

556
00:31:42,024 --> 00:31:46,584
Speaker 4: are intensely powerful. He would be furious. Imagine sitting in

557
00:31:46,584 --> 00:31:48,944
Speaker 4: that meeting that he sat in with his wife and

558
00:31:49,024 --> 00:31:52,304
Speaker 4: all those people and literally listening to that list being

559
00:31:52,344 --> 00:31:54,504
Speaker 4: read out about them walking in on her when she's

560
00:31:54,544 --> 00:31:57,824
Speaker 4: half naked and breastfeeding in her trailer Revenge is a

561
00:31:57,904 --> 00:32:01,184
Speaker 4: dish best served cold. Right, those guys have gone and

562
00:32:01,224 --> 00:32:03,624
Speaker 4: got their ducks in a row in a very professional,

563
00:32:04,344 --> 00:32:07,144
Speaker 4: very organized manner, and now they're coming for them. And

564
00:32:07,984 --> 00:32:10,984
Speaker 4: fair enough, if indeed everything that's in that legal letter

565
00:32:11,224 --> 00:32:13,544
Speaker 4: is true, absolutely fair enough.

566
00:32:13,824 --> 00:32:16,064
Speaker 3: So what are our takeaways before we wrap up and

567
00:32:16,184 --> 00:32:17,584
Speaker 3: actually go on holidays?

568
00:32:17,864 --> 00:32:21,184
Speaker 5: I think the reason why people are so fascinated by

569
00:32:21,184 --> 00:32:24,584
Speaker 5: this is because it's an exercise in perspective, but also

570
00:32:25,384 --> 00:32:30,384
Speaker 5: we were used as audiences and consumers of media. We

571
00:32:30,384 --> 00:32:34,464
Speaker 5: were played. And the other thing is that I am

572
00:32:34,504 --> 00:32:40,464
Speaker 5: now looking at other examples of cancelation. I'm sorry, but well,

573
00:32:40,504 --> 00:32:43,824
Speaker 5: actually there are some examples of men. But what's confusing

574
00:32:43,904 --> 00:32:47,784
Speaker 5: about them are I don't know who benefited. So it's

575
00:32:47,864 --> 00:32:50,224
Speaker 5: really important when you look at a cancelation like this

576
00:32:50,784 --> 00:32:53,104
Speaker 5: to see who the winners are. But it makes me

577
00:32:53,224 --> 00:32:58,584
Speaker 5: think very differently about Megan Markle. I just wonder when

578
00:32:58,664 --> 00:33:01,824
Speaker 5: you see Walter all and wheneverone walks around and they

579
00:33:01,824 --> 00:33:03,784
Speaker 5: go I just have a sense of something. I have

580
00:33:03,824 --> 00:33:07,064
Speaker 5: a sense that they're not very nice or something.

581
00:33:07,104 --> 00:33:08,064
Speaker 1: It's a great point.

582
00:33:08,304 --> 00:33:11,384
Speaker 5: It just makes me go, how much of this is

583
00:33:11,424 --> 00:33:15,104
Speaker 5: all manufactured? And how difficult is it to prove when

584
00:33:15,144 --> 00:33:19,744
Speaker 5: these social media wizards are so much smarter than us.

585
00:33:20,104 --> 00:33:22,664
Speaker 3: So out loud As, we will be returning to our

586
00:33:22,824 --> 00:33:25,904
Speaker 3: scheduled programming of hot Pods summer, where we are going

587
00:33:25,944 --> 00:33:28,104
Speaker 3: to be giving you all sorts of delicious things to

588
00:33:28,144 --> 00:33:29,824
Speaker 3: listen to over summer.

589
00:33:30,464 --> 00:33:31,664
Speaker 1: If only you could see us.

590
00:33:31,704 --> 00:33:34,624
Speaker 3: Now, it's early in the morning, we are all at home,

591
00:33:35,304 --> 00:33:38,064
Speaker 3: but we really wanted to bring this to you because

592
00:33:38,744 --> 00:33:41,424
Speaker 3: we just thought that it was an important story to cover.

593
00:33:41,744 --> 00:33:44,424
Speaker 5: It was one of those stories that in terms of

594
00:33:44,424 --> 00:33:46,184
Speaker 5: the group chat, it was just going off.

595
00:33:46,264 --> 00:33:47,624
Speaker 2: Look, chances are in two.

596
00:33:47,544 --> 00:33:49,904
Speaker 5: Days there'll be another story that blows up our group

597
00:33:49,984 --> 00:33:53,504
Speaker 5: chat and we're like, let's jump on. But this time

598
00:33:53,544 --> 00:33:55,504
Speaker 5: of year, I think we all tend to fall into

599
00:33:55,544 --> 00:33:58,944
Speaker 5: some rabbit holes, and it appears that we were.

600
00:33:58,864 --> 00:33:59,504
Speaker 2: Victims of that.

601
00:33:59,984 --> 00:34:02,504
Speaker 4: If this conversation has brought anything up for you, help

602
00:34:02,584 --> 00:34:04,744
Speaker 4: is available. We're going to put links to resources that

603
00:34:04,784 --> 00:34:06,064
Speaker 4: can help in the show notes.

604
00:34:06,224 --> 00:34:08,864
Speaker 3: Take care, I'm going outside to touch some grass.

605
00:34:08,944 --> 00:34:11,584
Speaker 1: We love you out Louders. We will be in your

606
00:34:11,624 --> 00:34:12,264
Speaker 1: ears shortly.

607
00:34:12,784 --> 00:34:22,784
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye