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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. For Mamma Mia,

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Ashanni Dante. Welcome to But Are You Happy?

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Speaker 1: The podcast for people who believe a new haircut will

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Speaker 1: completely change their personality.

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Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia Honus, clinical psychologists passionate about mental

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Speaker 2: health and happiness. Now, over the next few weeks, we're

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Speaker 2: bringing you special episodes focused on the holiday season. Last week,

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Speaker 2: we spoke about the psychology of alcohol, why social drinking

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Speaker 2: becomes such a big part of the holidays, and how

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Speaker 2: you can be more mindful about your relationship with alcohol

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Speaker 2: during this time.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about the financial pressures that can come

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Speaker 1: at this time of year. All the expectations to buy gifts,

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Speaker 1: travel to see people, buy food, and drink. It all

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Speaker 1: adds up.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about all the financial pressure, but I'll also

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Speaker 2: teach you how you can focus more on connection than

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Speaker 2: consumption over the holidays.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Why do we feel this pressure

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Speaker 1: to spend so much money at this time of year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really rooted in tradition, right. We have these

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Speaker 2: frameworks of social norms that we subscribe to, and we

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily often question them, and so it feels like

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Speaker 2: an expectation perhaps that we might be spending more money

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Speaker 2: at this time of year. For those who celebrate Christmas,

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Speaker 2: Christmas is often a time of year where we feel

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Speaker 2: like we need to buy gifts for our loved ones

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Speaker 2: to say Merry Christmas, Happy Christmas. And it's funny because

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Speaker 2: if we think back to it, the origin of gift

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Speaker 2: giving around Christmas actually comes from when Jesus was born

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Speaker 2: and the wise men came and gave gifts of gold, frankincense,

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Speaker 2: and Mr True. So we sort of have carried these

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Speaker 2: traditions forward.

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Speaker 1: So it's actually so funny that you referenced that story

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Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, I never connected the dots there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, it's because that's such a good point, right,

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Speaker 2: we don't necessarily question why do we give gifts at Christmas?

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Speaker 2: Like how did this become a thing? Where did it

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Speaker 2: come from? And how it changes over time as well,

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Speaker 2: because I think it was around the time after the

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Speaker 2: Second World War in the US particularly, we saw like

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Speaker 2: the boom of the American Dream and you know, a

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Speaker 2: time of greater economic prosperity, and this is where we

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Speaker 2: saw kind of the Christmas industry boom as well, and

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Speaker 2: it became a market of its own where you know,

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Speaker 2: buy for Christmas was really sort of marketed and sold

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Speaker 2: as a way for people to spend money.

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Speaker 1: So true. I know, for me, I find this time

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Speaker 1: of view really interesting because it's kind of like fomo

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Speaker 1: can come up for me when it's like, oh, if

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Speaker 1: I don't pay for that experience where other people are

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Speaker 1: going to it, well I'm going to miss out. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like that happens a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yes, our sense of belonging, we want to be doing

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Speaker 2: what other people are doing. We want to join in

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Speaker 2: the fun, we want to have that same sense of connection,

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Speaker 2: and there can be some self pressure to engage in that,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes also social pressure as well. I know. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a time of year where family and friends will

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Speaker 2: get together, and I've certainly heard stories of people feeling

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Speaker 2: like they have to go to the family barbecue and

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Speaker 2: they have to take a meal, or they have to

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Speaker 2: take a gift or a bottle of something, and there

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Speaker 2: are these expectations that come with a flavor of social

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Speaker 2: pressure along with them.

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Speaker 1: I find as well. Because it's that time of year,

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Speaker 1: especially Boxing Day, there are so many sales, right, so

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Speaker 1: like people go crazy around Boxing Day. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: happens every year. There's lines outside of stores. You're like, oh, wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: I should probably make the most of this, right.

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Speaker 2: And can I just add I've done Boxing Day sales

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Speaker 2: twice in my life, not recently, and it was mayhem,

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Speaker 2: it was chaotic, But I also found there was a

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Speaker 2: self pressure to purchase things, like, I'm here, there's so

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Speaker 2: many things on offer. Look at all these people around

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Speaker 2: me buying things. Surely I'm gonna find some stuff to buy.

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Speaker 2: So it might have been things I wouldn't have necessarily

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Speaker 2: bought or I wasn't actually as happy with, but I

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Speaker 2: had the mental expectation that I'm going to find something

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Speaker 2: good and I'm going to spend money here, And so

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Speaker 2: it was always like a self fulfilling prophecy that this

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Speaker 2: is what I have to do, and if I walk

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Speaker 2: away empty handed, I somehow failed Boxing Day sales totally.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny how salees just generally can really impact

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Speaker 1: our psyche because it's like, oh, do I actually need

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Speaker 1: that top? Or but it's twenty dollars and it used

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Speaker 1: to be one hundred dollars and you're like, well, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know you've got many other tops. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's a big there's so much in that.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. And I think to add to kind of

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Speaker 2: like the marketing lens of Christmas and this time of year,

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Speaker 2: if we think about, you know, buy mum something she'll

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Speaker 2: love for Christmas, like, it really taps into our relationships

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Speaker 2: with other people and that sort of emotional element of

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Speaker 2: trying to encourage us to spend money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: I always find it really interesting to think about how

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Speaker 2: different families set up expectations, sometimes expectations that are very

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Speaker 2: clearly said, or expectations that are more implied than said,

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Speaker 2: but expectations around money and gift giving around Christmas in

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Speaker 2: this time of year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Like for me and yos so Yo is

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Speaker 1: my husband, we don't actually give each other gifts, like

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Speaker 1: not just for Christmas, but for a lot of our occasions,

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Speaker 1: special occasions. Yeah, we don't give We don't do gifts,

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Speaker 1: like it's just something we just if we were to

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Speaker 1: spend money on anything, it would be like a shared experience.

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Speaker 1: It's like having time together is like something that's really

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Speaker 1: important to us. So yeah, but it works really well.

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Speaker 1: But also it's like even with my because I've got

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Speaker 1: my cute little nephews and niece. So usually like I

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Speaker 1: would like me and YO would give them gifts, but

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Speaker 1: my sister and my brother in law just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: don't spend much at all. Like literally, my sister's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you can get prayer. My pray is my niece. You

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Speaker 1: can get just a hair brush. And I'm like, oh really,

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Speaker 1: but because it's practical, it's affordable, and I'm hitting the

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Speaker 1: intention of I still want to give them something. So

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Speaker 1: it's like we have these honest conversations and it's just

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Speaker 1: really easy. Like I definitely had a moment being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but it's not enough. But I mean if that like,

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Speaker 1: family's always honest at the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: Right, So well, the fact you can have those open,

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Speaker 2: transparent conversations feels really important, so that it's not implied

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Speaker 2: or assumed that this is what we're doing, but actually

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Speaker 2: we have a clear communication that we're not going to

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Speaker 2: get each other gifts.

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Speaker 1: Totally totally. How about you. I feel like you're I

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Speaker 1: love giftfifts. Yeah, yeah, You're You're different to me. See,

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Speaker 1: everyone's got their own flavor.

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Speaker 2: I love the feeling of receiving a gift, yeah, and

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Speaker 2: feeling like someone who's thought about me, and it's a

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Speaker 2: really like special thing that I then have. I feel like,

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Speaker 2: I feel like gifts are really special. And then when

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Speaker 2: I use that gift or where that gift or whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, I remember who's given it to me. So

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Speaker 2: I touch a lot of meaning to gifts.

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Speaker 1: I really like gifts. Okay, well, now feel the pressure

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Speaker 1: of getting.

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Speaker 2: A giveness to my birthday. That's true.

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Speaker 1: So why does money feel so personal and emotional?

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Speaker 2: There is so much tied into the psychology of money. Yes,

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Speaker 2: money is not just coins and notes or numbers in

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Speaker 2: the bank account. Money. Money can serve as a real

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Speaker 2: sense of us, reflecting on who we are as a

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Speaker 2: person in the world, our own sense of value, our

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Speaker 2: own sense of identity, self worth. It impacts so much

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Speaker 2: about how we might feel about ourselves, as well as

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Speaker 2: how we might feel about others and the world that

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Speaker 2: we exist within. And it's always interesting to think about

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Speaker 2: where people's beliefs about money actually come from. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: we've all kind of had experiences with different friends where

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Speaker 2: we've got the friend who's really frugal, saves every sense

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Speaker 2: is very careful. We've got the friend that spends money

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Speaker 2: that they maybe don't even have. You know, people's relationship

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Speaker 2: with money can change such a spectrum of it, and

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Speaker 2: I think it really comes back to the messages that

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Speaker 2: we have learned throughout our life about what money means.

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Speaker 1: So true. It gets me thinking about when I was

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Speaker 1: a little girl and how my dad would literally say

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Speaker 1: money doesn't grow on trees, like he literally told me that,

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Speaker 1: and it was just such a fascinating concept. But it

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Speaker 1: has always stuck to me. Y.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, it's funny, like we get these messages from

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Speaker 2: our parents, from our family, from our environment. I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about people who might have had families where there was

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Speaker 2: little money or maybe a lot of stress in the

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Speaker 2: family about money, and then that person grows up to

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Speaker 2: be ultra careful with money, even if they have more

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Speaker 2: of it to spend as an adult, they're still very

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Speaker 2: focused on saving as much as possible and spending as

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Speaker 2: little as possible, versus maybe a family where the priority

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Speaker 2: is around giving money out and generosity and sharing money.

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Speaker 2: You know, we see lots of cultures where money is

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Speaker 2: not just yours, it's the families or you have an

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Speaker 2: obligation and an expectation to share your money. All these

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Speaker 2: experiences shape how we as adults actually interact with the

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Speaker 2: money that we have, but also how we then interact

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Speaker 2: with other people. If we have this lens around, money

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Speaker 2: is mine versus money is ours versus. Money can just

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Speaker 2: be made. You know, it's not as valuable as how

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Speaker 2: other people might see it. There's a lot that really

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Speaker 2: goes into the psychology of money totally.

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Speaker 1: So do you feel like money can make people feel powerful? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, money can give us a feeling of power. It

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Speaker 2: can also give us a feeling of control. For some people,

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Speaker 2: money can be a gateway to freedom or to being

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Speaker 2: able to access resources totally. So we often think about

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Speaker 2: money and power, but I kind of think of the

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Speaker 2: word control because it's a sense of having control over

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Speaker 2: myself and my own life.

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Speaker 1: So, I know we've talked a lot around gift giving,

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Speaker 1: but the reality is of the holiday period where you know,

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Speaker 1: spending money on new outfits to look nice at events

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Speaker 1: coming up, or having to spend more money at a

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Speaker 1: family holiday trip. Right, Like, there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: These expectations that you know, you pay your way for

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Speaker 2: the family holiday, everyone's going. You don't want to be

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Speaker 2: the only person that doesn't go on the trip, so

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Speaker 2: you have to find the money to go, or you know,

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Speaker 2: just even taking food and drinks to the family barbecue

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Speaker 2: or more outings social outings with friends that you might

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Speaker 2: have to pay money for. It's interesting because a trends

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Speaker 2: that I see every year in the clinic is from

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Speaker 2: of October to December, we get really busy. More people

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Speaker 2: are wanting to come for therapy during those months.

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Speaker 1: Fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Yes, start of the year is always a little bit

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Speaker 2: quieter January February maybe people are still away. So that's it,

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Speaker 2: like I'm on tracks. Yes, but in the lead up,

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Speaker 2: you know, these conversations about finances, about spending time with family,

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Speaker 2: about managing this period as a whole can be really

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Speaker 2: stressful for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: After the break, doctor Anastasia is going to tell us

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Speaker 1: how we can manage our money over the holiday period

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Speaker 1: without losing the meaning of gift Gibbee. Stay with us, Okay, Anastasia,

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Speaker 1: how do we manage our money over the holiday period?

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Speaker 1: Give us a bit of a roadmap if there is one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not a financial planner, so I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to keep guys disclining management strategies, but I can give

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Speaker 2: psychological strategies.

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Speaker 1: You can do that.

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Speaker 2: I would sugges reflect on what is most important to

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Speaker 2: you about the holiday period when we actually sort of

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Speaker 2: take a pause to reflect on our intentions for this

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Speaker 2: holiday time. What I often hear people talking about is connection,

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Speaker 2: connection with other people. We might have time off work hopefully,

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Speaker 2: or we have more public holidays we have you know, Christmas,

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Speaker 2: New Year's, these sort of days that we can celebrate.

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Speaker 2: And at the end of it, even if people do

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Speaker 2: want to lean into traditions, if they do want to

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Speaker 2: do the gift giving, whatever they decide to do, often

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Speaker 2: what's at the core of a lot of that is connection.

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Speaker 2: If we can keep connection at the heart of our choices,

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're better placed to make choices that

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Speaker 2: are most aligned with our values.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. It just comes down to how

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Speaker 1: connection really is the gift like it is.

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Speaker 2: That's beautiful, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, get that on a T shirt, guys.

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Speaker 2: So I'd encourage people to ask themselves the question of

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Speaker 2: you know, what are the holidays actually about for me?

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Speaker 2: Not what the marketing, you know, advertisements tell me I

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Speaker 2: should be caring about, But what is it actually about

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Speaker 2: for me? Is it about religious traditions? Is it about

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Speaker 2: family connection? Is it about relaxation time if I've got

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Speaker 2: time off work, Is it about self care and enjoyments?

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Speaker 2: Is it about rest? You know what's the priority for me?

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Speaker 1: It's good to actually stop and pause to reflect on

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Speaker 1: those questions because I'm thinking for myself, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've actually done that too.

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Speaker 2: Or people who get to the end of the couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks, maybe over the Christmas break, where they've taken

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Speaker 2: some time off, but they don't really feel like they've

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Speaker 2: made good use of it, or they don't necessarily feel

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Speaker 2: refreshed at the end of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. So something I'm wanting to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about. And I know we've mentioned it before

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Speaker 1: in previous episodes around love languages and how receiving gifts

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Speaker 1: is one of the love languages.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, yes, love languages is interesting. Love languages. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if we unpack this too much in the

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Speaker 2: previous episode, but there isn't actually a lot of evidence

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Speaker 2: behind love languages. There isn't no, so I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you know the origin of it. The guy who

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Speaker 2: developed the five love languages is Gary Chapman. Now he's

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Speaker 2: a pastor. Oh, he's a post and so he and

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Speaker 2: I think he has qualifications in education, but he did

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Speaker 2: a lot of marriage counseling before people went on to

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Speaker 2: get married, and so these five love languages actually came

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Speaker 2: out of a lot of conversations he had with couples

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Speaker 2: and just themes that he saw qualitative. Yes, but I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think they provide a good framework for

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Speaker 2: us to think about personally how we find valuable connection

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Speaker 2: with others. But it's not necessarily to say that you

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Speaker 2: need to have the same love language as someone else

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Speaker 2: in order to have a good relationship with them. I

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Speaker 2: think we can sort of think of it as a

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Speaker 2: loose frame work, but absolutely, as I mentioned, I love gifts.

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Speaker 2: I love receiving gifts, and I also love giving gifts.

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Speaker 2: I'm a gift giver, and I think that just says

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Speaker 2: something a lot, a lot about me, but a lot

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Speaker 2: about my family and the family I've grown up with

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Speaker 2: and the traditions I've grown up with, you know, Greek family,

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Speaker 2: not just about gifts, but like putting on massive feasts,

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Speaker 2: inviting people over, cooking lots of food, but really kind

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Speaker 2: of going all out for those events. That's been a

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Speaker 2: huge part of how we show love. But you know

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Speaker 2: that also requires money to be spent as well.

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Speaker 1: Totally. Oh my gosh, I love that we're so opposite

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Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure my lowest, because there's there's like

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Speaker 1: a test you can do to discover your love language

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Speaker 1: online and gift giving gifts generally is my lowest. I

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Speaker 1: love that so much.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll say money, I won't.

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Speaker 1: Get you a Christmas I will spend more money. That's great,

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Speaker 1: So what about on a more practical note, like what

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Speaker 1: can we be doing At a practical.

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Speaker 2: Level, I suggest people think about budget for the holidays

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Speaker 2: and track their spending. So people might already have budgets

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Speaker 2: week to week that they think about and stick to.

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Speaker 2: You can apply one specifically for the holiday period. It's

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Speaker 2: important to factor in if people are not also working

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Speaker 2: over that time as well, that the income coming through

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Speaker 2: might be a little bit lower. But thinking about what

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Speaker 2: your budget is and really breaking that down into Okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'll set myself a budget for gifts for people,

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Speaker 2: but what's my budget for recreational activities? What's my budget

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Speaker 2: for you know, the family barbecue? That I'm going to

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Speaker 2: have to contribute to, you know, actually breaking down the

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Speaker 2: budget into those different categories so that we can be

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Speaker 2: allocating money according to how it is we want to

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Speaker 2: spend our time.

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Speaker 1: Totally, and I can imagine as well also on a

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Speaker 1: practical level, just having honest conversations right with the people

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Speaker 1: in your life, and you know you've done the numbers,

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Speaker 1: you know where you're at, and it's just communicating it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, communicating if you don't necessarily want to do gifts,

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Speaker 2: if you feel like you don't want to be spending

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Speaker 2: too much money or can't spend too much money this

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Speaker 2: holiday season. But also I think there's some fun alternatives

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Speaker 2: that can still lean into gift giving while also maintaining connections.

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Speaker 2: So things like secret standers and handmade gifts, or setting

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Speaker 2: a limit for how much money everyone spends on gifts

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Speaker 2: as well can be really useful and practical. So before

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Speaker 2: we wrap this episode up, I want to give our

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Speaker 2: listeners some reflective questions we always love them, yes, that

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Speaker 2: they can think over over the holidays to get them

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Speaker 2: reflecting on how they spend money, so that money is

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Speaker 2: spent with intention and not just out of habit. So

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Speaker 2: here's a few questions for you. What does the holiday

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Speaker 2: season truly mean for me? Am I spending it in

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Speaker 2: line with my personal values and priorities? When did I

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Speaker 2: first learn that spending money during the holidays was the

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Speaker 2: right thing to do? What family or cultural influences shape

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Speaker 2: my spending decisions. What emotions come up for me when

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Speaker 2: I shop for gifts or holiday events? Do I feel excited, anxious, guilty?

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Speaker 2: Am I purchasing gifts or experiences to impress others or

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Speaker 2: to fulfill an inner need for approval or belonging? And lastly,

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Speaker 2: how do I want to feel financially and emotionally when

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Speaker 2: the holiday season is over? And what choices today will

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Speaker 2: help me get there?

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Speaker 1: Happy digging everyone, Happy digging like digging into your psyche

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Speaker 1: finding out Anastasia. Can you tell us the main takeaways

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Speaker 1: from today's episode? Yes, I can.

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Speaker 2: First of all, a lot of our spending over the

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Speaker 2: holidays can occur from habit or expectations. Second, our relationship

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Speaker 2: to money is heavily influenced by our upbringing and the

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Speaker 2: messages we learnt about money. Third of all, choose to

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Speaker 2: reflect on your spending this holiday season and consider prioritizing

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Speaker 2: meaningful connection over mindless assumption.

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Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are

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Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us, links

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Speaker 1: through in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't

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Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool. The advice and ideas we present here

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Speaker 2: should always take into account your personal medical history.

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Speaker 1: Next week's episode dives into how to navigate tricky relationships

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Speaker 1: with friends and family over the holiday season, especially when

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Speaker 1: tensions run high around the table.

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Speaker 2: The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman,

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Speaker 2: zecure producer is Naima Brown, and Social producer is Jemma Donahoe.

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Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at

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Speaker 1: but Are You Happy Pod? I'm a Shani Dante.

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Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus. The names and stories of

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Speaker 2: people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

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Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,

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Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or

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Speaker 2: Beyond Blue if you're wanting more immediate support.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, see you next time.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

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Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on