1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,222 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:19,502 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey. 4 00:00:19,342 --> 00:00:21,782 Speaker 1: Out louders, it's me Ah and I'm popping into your 5 00:00:21,782 --> 00:00:24,861 Speaker 1: ears for you Sunday special. You've probably heard us chat 6 00:00:24,862 --> 00:00:28,782 Speaker 1: about Mama MEA's new career podcast Bierz. Well, today we've 7 00:00:28,781 --> 00:00:32,342 Speaker 1: got an episode with an absolute legend, and it's me. 8 00:00:33,582 --> 00:00:35,902 Speaker 1: It is me. I'm not an absolute legend, but I 9 00:00:35,942 --> 00:00:38,262 Speaker 1: do get quite personal in this episode because I open 10 00:00:38,382 --> 00:00:40,062 Speaker 1: up about the time in my career where I was 11 00:00:40,101 --> 00:00:43,582 Speaker 1: made redundant, and Michelle Battersbee, who's one of the hosts 12 00:00:43,702 --> 00:00:47,582 Speaker 1: of BIZ, asks me some really interesting questions. I haven't 13 00:00:47,582 --> 00:00:49,781 Speaker 1: thought about it for a long time, but we go 14 00:00:49,902 --> 00:00:52,781 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of my very public career blow up 15 00:00:52,782 --> 00:00:55,462 Speaker 1: that literally was the thing that led me to start 16 00:00:55,622 --> 00:00:58,142 Speaker 1: Mamma Mia. I know a lot of people have been 17 00:00:58,142 --> 00:01:02,142 Speaker 1: made redundant and it can be something that's really brutal. 18 00:01:02,942 --> 00:01:05,782 Speaker 1: I have been there, but I promise you that sometimes 19 00:01:05,862 --> 00:01:07,941 Speaker 1: the worst professional moments lead to the best things in 20 00:01:07,982 --> 00:01:10,902 Speaker 1: your life, and that's exactly what happened to me. So 21 00:01:11,021 --> 00:01:13,782 Speaker 1: our brilliant career coach, so First, she used to work 22 00:01:13,822 --> 00:01:16,902 Speaker 1: at Google, and she's just like a guru. She jumps 23 00:01:16,942 --> 00:01:19,822 Speaker 1: in with practical advice for anyone who's been made redundant, 24 00:01:20,302 --> 00:01:24,142 Speaker 1: and also about rebuilding after setbacks and so many things 25 00:01:24,182 --> 00:01:26,301 Speaker 1: that I wish I'd known back then. So, whether you're 26 00:01:26,302 --> 00:01:28,742 Speaker 1: going through this right now, or you know someone who is, 27 00:01:28,982 --> 00:01:31,702 Speaker 1: or you just want to be prepared, this one's worth 28 00:01:31,782 --> 00:01:32,262 Speaker 1: a listen. 29 00:01:35,502 --> 00:01:40,022 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted. I'm 30 00:01:40,182 --> 00:01:44,022 Speaker 2: Mvenim and today we're going to discuss something that happens 31 00:01:44,022 --> 00:01:47,902 Speaker 2: to so many of us across our careers, and that's redundancy. 32 00:01:48,182 --> 00:01:50,942 Speaker 2: And I feel like our attitudes towards being made redundant 33 00:01:50,982 --> 00:01:53,462 Speaker 2: is changing, but the thought of it still makes me 34 00:01:53,662 --> 00:01:57,822 Speaker 2: extremely nervous. So first things first, redundancy happens when your 35 00:01:57,902 --> 00:02:01,622 Speaker 2: role is no longer needed due to business changes, restructuring, 36 00:02:01,782 --> 00:02:05,182 Speaker 2: or closure. It's different from being fired, and if you've 37 00:02:05,222 --> 00:02:07,422 Speaker 2: been in a company for over twelve months as a 38 00:02:07,462 --> 00:02:10,622 Speaker 2: full time or part time employee, you're usually entitled to 39 00:02:10,662 --> 00:02:13,901 Speaker 2: a payout of some sort. Today we are joined by 40 00:02:13,901 --> 00:02:17,622 Speaker 2: someone who turned their redundancy into an incredible success story. 41 00:02:17,982 --> 00:02:21,702 Speaker 2: Mom and MIA's founder and my boss, Miir Friedman. She 42 00:02:21,822 --> 00:02:26,382 Speaker 2: went from a very public redundancy to building Australia's largest 43 00:02:26,422 --> 00:02:30,942 Speaker 2: women's media company Mia. Along with our career coaches Michelle, 44 00:02:31,022 --> 00:02:35,341 Speaker 2: Batisby and Sophurst, will help you navigate the emotional rollercoaster 45 00:02:35,422 --> 00:02:38,822 Speaker 2: that is redundancy. And trust me, you'll want to hear 46 00:02:38,862 --> 00:02:41,782 Speaker 2: their advice on how to take this career curveball and 47 00:02:41,822 --> 00:02:45,182 Speaker 2: turn it into your next big opportunity. You'll see that 48 00:02:45,302 --> 00:02:48,302 Speaker 2: however you feel at the time, it's not all bad 49 00:02:48,382 --> 00:02:50,621 Speaker 2: and it can even be a good chance to reset 50 00:02:50,702 --> 00:02:53,181 Speaker 2: and find something better, just like a breakup. 51 00:02:53,862 --> 00:02:57,462 Speaker 3: So before we jump into this episode, I want people 52 00:02:57,542 --> 00:03:00,181 Speaker 3: to know that from my perspective as an employer, a 53 00:03:00,302 --> 00:03:04,422 Speaker 3: redundancy is not a bad thing. It is an opportunity 54 00:03:04,502 --> 00:03:07,262 Speaker 3: to reset and I think it is what you make 55 00:03:07,342 --> 00:03:10,302 Speaker 3: of it. But I don't want this to come across 56 00:03:10,342 --> 00:03:15,341 Speaker 3: like toxic positivity. It's just that factually, as an employer, 57 00:03:15,582 --> 00:03:20,062 Speaker 3: you know that things change. Businesses pivot, technologies advance, and 58 00:03:20,142 --> 00:03:23,102 Speaker 3: the thing with being made redundant is think of it 59 00:03:23,222 --> 00:03:27,102 Speaker 3: like your role has been made redundant, not you have 60 00:03:27,262 --> 00:03:38,582 Speaker 3: been made redundant. There is a distinction there. To prepare 61 00:03:38,622 --> 00:03:40,982 Speaker 3: for this episode, I went out on my Instagram and 62 00:03:41,022 --> 00:03:45,862 Speaker 3: I had over two thousand people respond and forty percent 63 00:03:45,942 --> 00:03:50,022 Speaker 3: of them said that they had been made redundant. And 64 00:03:50,222 --> 00:03:53,062 Speaker 3: I then asked a follow up question, how did it feel? 65 00:03:53,182 --> 00:03:56,702 Speaker 3: And it was a really mixed bag. It ranged from 66 00:03:56,822 --> 00:03:59,462 Speaker 3: it was a sleigh it was the best thing to 67 00:03:59,502 --> 00:04:02,702 Speaker 3: ever happen to me. I was so well looked after. 68 00:04:03,262 --> 00:04:06,982 Speaker 3: It led to way better things too. I felt ashamed. 69 00:04:07,502 --> 00:04:09,942 Speaker 3: It was the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me. 70 00:04:10,582 --> 00:04:14,942 Speaker 3: I felt worthless and embarrassed. So let's speak to someone 71 00:04:15,022 --> 00:04:19,301 Speaker 3: who actually has been through it. Mia Friedman. Maya is 72 00:04:19,301 --> 00:04:22,702 Speaker 3: the founder and creative director of Mama Mia, the largest 73 00:04:22,782 --> 00:04:26,661 Speaker 3: women's podcast network in the world. But before that, Maya 74 00:04:26,902 --> 00:04:30,502 Speaker 3: was the youngest editor of Cosmo and worked on the 75 00:04:30,662 --> 00:04:34,262 Speaker 3: likes of Dolly, which is iconic, my first ever magazine subscription, 76 00:04:35,101 --> 00:04:37,582 Speaker 3: and she had a killer career for over fifteen years. 77 00:04:38,142 --> 00:04:41,022 Speaker 3: She then transitioned to Channel nine, where she was made 78 00:04:41,022 --> 00:04:47,902 Speaker 3: redundant after twelve months. Miya, welcome hello from the outside 79 00:04:47,981 --> 00:04:50,981 Speaker 3: looking in, I feel like you've just come off the 80 00:04:51,181 --> 00:04:54,662 Speaker 3: highest high of your career and then you find yourself 81 00:04:54,741 --> 00:04:58,782 Speaker 3: in this role where you're made redundant after twelve months. 82 00:04:59,142 --> 00:05:00,222 Speaker 1: What was that like? 83 00:05:00,342 --> 00:05:02,181 Speaker 3: What was your mindset like at that time? 84 00:05:02,462 --> 00:05:04,741 Speaker 1: I was just listening to you describe all the different 85 00:05:04,861 --> 00:05:08,141 Speaker 1: ways that people feel after redundancy what they told you, 86 00:05:08,782 --> 00:05:11,101 Speaker 1: and I think I felt all of those ways at once, 87 00:05:11,941 --> 00:05:15,861 Speaker 1: because my situation was slightly different in that I had 88 00:05:15,861 --> 00:05:18,782 Speaker 1: to fight to get a redundancy. The job that I 89 00:05:18,861 --> 00:05:22,981 Speaker 1: went to do to be an executive in TV wasn't 90 00:05:23,101 --> 00:05:25,701 Speaker 1: really a job, and the person who hired me left 91 00:05:25,741 --> 00:05:28,141 Speaker 1: the company, and I'd had it written in my contract 92 00:05:28,222 --> 00:05:31,381 Speaker 1: that I was there to report to him. So the 93 00:05:31,541 --> 00:05:35,141 Speaker 1: job that I was doing had become so awful and 94 00:05:35,181 --> 00:05:38,901 Speaker 1: the situation was so unpleasant the company really wanted me 95 00:05:38,981 --> 00:05:41,782 Speaker 1: to just quit. And if I'd have just quit, I 96 00:05:41,782 --> 00:05:44,701 Speaker 1: would have walked away with nothing. But because it was 97 00:05:44,741 --> 00:05:46,902 Speaker 1: actually the TV company I was working for was owned 98 00:05:46,902 --> 00:05:49,502 Speaker 1: by the same magazine company that I had worked for, 99 00:05:50,142 --> 00:05:52,701 Speaker 1: I had like fifteen or sixteen years of service. So 100 00:05:52,702 --> 00:05:54,621 Speaker 1: even though I'd been at this one job for not long, 101 00:05:55,222 --> 00:05:56,662 Speaker 1: I did what a lot of women want to do, 102 00:05:56,702 --> 00:05:59,382 Speaker 1: which is just get away from a difficult situation. And 103 00:05:59,421 --> 00:06:02,181 Speaker 1: that would have cost me financially massively. And it was 104 00:06:02,222 --> 00:06:06,461 Speaker 1: my husband who said, no, you're a redundant, like the 105 00:06:06,582 --> 00:06:09,022 Speaker 1: thing that you came to do, you can't do anymore. 106 00:06:09,582 --> 00:06:12,421 Speaker 1: Fight for redundancy. So I fought, and it was really unpleasant, 107 00:06:12,462 --> 00:06:15,621 Speaker 1: but I finally secured it, which meant that I had 108 00:06:15,821 --> 00:06:18,822 Speaker 1: like almost a year's worth of salary. And what that 109 00:06:18,902 --> 00:06:23,261 Speaker 1: did was, even though it was absolutely humiliating and it 110 00:06:23,342 --> 00:06:25,501 Speaker 1: seemed to everyone like I'd been fired, and I may 111 00:06:25,541 --> 00:06:28,101 Speaker 1: as well have been fired because my time at this 112 00:06:28,222 --> 00:06:31,262 Speaker 1: company had been a disaster and I'd achieved nothing. I 113 00:06:31,381 --> 00:06:35,061 Speaker 1: had that amount of money that I could then use 114 00:06:35,741 --> 00:06:37,701 Speaker 1: to do my next thing. It brought me time. What 115 00:06:37,782 --> 00:06:40,902 Speaker 1: my redundancy brought me is time, and for some people 116 00:06:40,941 --> 00:06:43,662 Speaker 1: that might just be a month. For me, it was 117 00:06:43,662 --> 00:06:47,141 Speaker 1: about a year. And it enabled me to start a 118 00:06:47,541 --> 00:06:51,782 Speaker 1: blog and not earn anything for a year, which is 119 00:06:51,821 --> 00:06:53,942 Speaker 1: a huge amount of time, because I certainly I didn't 120 00:06:53,981 --> 00:06:57,222 Speaker 1: earn anything from AMEA for more than a year. The 121 00:06:57,342 --> 00:07:01,822 Speaker 1: humiliation and the shame is very, very real. And I 122 00:07:01,861 --> 00:07:04,582 Speaker 1: think that the most important question to ask yourself is 123 00:07:05,142 --> 00:07:09,381 Speaker 1: was I made redundant because my skill set isn't applicable anymore? 124 00:07:09,862 --> 00:07:13,901 Speaker 1: Or was I made redundant because the company changed shape 125 00:07:14,022 --> 00:07:17,021 Speaker 1: and they had to restructure and what you do next 126 00:07:17,062 --> 00:07:19,302 Speaker 1: depends on your answer to those two questions, because if 127 00:07:19,342 --> 00:07:22,742 Speaker 1: it's your skill set, then you have to pivot. You 128 00:07:22,782 --> 00:07:26,742 Speaker 1: have to really think, Okay, I loved being an illustrator, 129 00:07:26,782 --> 00:07:29,941 Speaker 1: but now it's all gone to graphic design, and the 130 00:07:29,982 --> 00:07:31,701 Speaker 1: skill that I had, the skill that I've always had, 131 00:07:31,782 --> 00:07:34,742 Speaker 1: is no longer applicable because of technology, because of whatever. 132 00:07:35,342 --> 00:07:37,941 Speaker 1: I need to find a different skill set and a 133 00:07:37,941 --> 00:07:39,941 Speaker 1: different way to get employed. If it's just that the 134 00:07:39,982 --> 00:07:43,262 Speaker 1: company change shape and you have valuable skills that could 135 00:07:43,302 --> 00:07:46,622 Speaker 1: just apply somewhere else, that's a different conversation, and that's 136 00:07:46,622 --> 00:07:48,781 Speaker 1: a better situation to me. The way that I always 137 00:07:48,782 --> 00:07:51,582 Speaker 1: think about it is from both an employer point of 138 00:07:51,662 --> 00:07:53,502 Speaker 1: view and how I thought about it when I was 139 00:07:53,502 --> 00:07:56,342 Speaker 1: made redundant is they've freed my future. 140 00:07:57,142 --> 00:07:57,622 Speaker 3: I love that. 141 00:07:57,902 --> 00:08:00,382 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like my future has been freed. Even if you 142 00:08:00,422 --> 00:08:03,182 Speaker 1: lose your job, even if you are sacked, you freed 143 00:08:03,222 --> 00:08:05,941 Speaker 1: someone's future. It's like ending a relationship. Yeah, No one 144 00:08:05,982 --> 00:08:07,982 Speaker 1: wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't 145 00:08:07,982 --> 00:08:10,141 Speaker 1: want to be with them anymore. Nobody wants to be 146 00:08:10,222 --> 00:08:13,462 Speaker 1: in a job that they can't do, like not really. 147 00:08:14,222 --> 00:08:17,182 Speaker 1: So ultimately, if you think about it Okay, my future 148 00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:18,022 Speaker 1: has been freed. 149 00:08:19,102 --> 00:08:19,661 Speaker 4: What next? 150 00:08:19,862 --> 00:08:20,182 Speaker 1: Yeah? 151 00:08:20,702 --> 00:08:23,182 Speaker 3: I think this is so important for women, the advocating 152 00:08:23,222 --> 00:08:27,021 Speaker 3: for yourself and knowing when you are owed something. And 153 00:08:27,182 --> 00:08:30,502 Speaker 3: I think many listeners might not know where to begin 154 00:08:30,702 --> 00:08:34,222 Speaker 3: with those conversations like advocating for yourself and saying, hang on, 155 00:08:34,902 --> 00:08:37,662 Speaker 3: my roles are no longer required. I'm owed a redundancy. 156 00:08:37,862 --> 00:08:40,302 Speaker 3: Like where did you start with those conversations? Did you 157 00:08:40,302 --> 00:08:40,862 Speaker 3: get a lawyer? 158 00:08:41,302 --> 00:08:44,262 Speaker 1: I didn't have a lawyer. In the beginning, I could 159 00:08:44,302 --> 00:08:45,902 Speaker 1: tell that they just wanted me a quit because of 160 00:08:45,942 --> 00:08:48,622 Speaker 1: course it's just easier, right, It's a problem they wouldn't 161 00:08:48,662 --> 00:08:50,302 Speaker 1: have to deal with. And then they tried to offer 162 00:08:50,382 --> 00:08:54,261 Speaker 1: me jobs that were really inappropriate, like they were like 163 00:08:54,382 --> 00:08:57,022 Speaker 1: deploying you. Yeah exactly, like and they have to do 164 00:08:57,062 --> 00:09:00,782 Speaker 1: that legally. But also I wasn't qualified to do those jobs, 165 00:09:00,862 --> 00:09:02,422 Speaker 1: Like they're like, maybe you could just be head of 166 00:09:02,422 --> 00:09:05,262 Speaker 1: hair and makeup and wardrobe what because I had a vagina, 167 00:09:05,422 --> 00:09:05,982 Speaker 1: so you know. 168 00:09:06,342 --> 00:09:07,462 Speaker 5: How can they offered you? 169 00:09:07,582 --> 00:09:10,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah exactly, and so not if there's anything wrong 170 00:09:10,582 --> 00:09:12,622 Speaker 1: with that, But that's not that's not what I came for. 171 00:09:12,702 --> 00:09:15,222 Speaker 1: It's not my skill set, it's not my background. It 172 00:09:15,262 --> 00:09:17,141 Speaker 1: was hard. It was really really hard because I just 173 00:09:17,222 --> 00:09:20,822 Speaker 1: wanted to avoid confrontation. I just wanted to go oh no, no, no, 174 00:09:20,662 --> 00:09:22,502 Speaker 1: I just quit. I'll just you know, I can't. I 175 00:09:22,622 --> 00:09:24,142 Speaker 1: don't want to go back. And I had a baby 176 00:09:24,182 --> 00:09:26,062 Speaker 1: at the time, a newborn and a seven year old, 177 00:09:26,062 --> 00:09:29,462 Speaker 1: and I just was like, I hate it here. Everyone 178 00:09:29,502 --> 00:09:33,902 Speaker 1: hates me. I'm failing. I just wanted to get away immediately. 179 00:09:34,022 --> 00:09:38,102 Speaker 1: And the actual negotiating the redundancy and fighting for what 180 00:09:38,222 --> 00:09:42,702 Speaker 1: I was owed made for an uncomfortable few weeks, but 181 00:09:42,742 --> 00:09:44,382 Speaker 1: my god, it was worth it because of what it 182 00:09:44,422 --> 00:09:45,582 Speaker 1: brought me on the other side. 183 00:09:45,862 --> 00:09:49,102 Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think for those listening and like where 184 00:09:49,102 --> 00:09:53,422 Speaker 3: both employers, I find most employers actually do want to 185 00:09:53,662 --> 00:09:57,622 Speaker 3: do good in the end for their employees. Like most 186 00:09:57,662 --> 00:10:00,142 Speaker 3: of the time, I actually will give you what you're 187 00:10:00,182 --> 00:10:02,422 Speaker 3: asking for because they also want it to go. 188 00:10:02,422 --> 00:10:05,582 Speaker 1: Away, or they'll try because in almost every case, certainly 189 00:10:05,582 --> 00:10:07,702 Speaker 1: every case I've experienced as an employer, when we've had 190 00:10:07,742 --> 00:10:10,182 Speaker 1: to make people redundant, it's never a about the people, 191 00:10:10,622 --> 00:10:13,062 Speaker 1: like it literally is never about the people. It's about 192 00:10:13,142 --> 00:10:15,942 Speaker 1: needing to change the shape of the business or skill 193 00:10:15,942 --> 00:10:19,382 Speaker 1: sets that other people have that replace this skill set 194 00:10:19,422 --> 00:10:22,462 Speaker 1: and it's about budgets, Like, it really comes down to budgets. 195 00:10:22,462 --> 00:10:26,381 Speaker 1: And businesses are called businesses for a reason. You can't 196 00:10:26,422 --> 00:10:30,022 Speaker 1: just afford to keep people on because you like them, unfortunately, 197 00:10:30,182 --> 00:10:34,182 Speaker 1: so it honestly isn't personal. So if you can just 198 00:10:34,422 --> 00:10:37,022 Speaker 1: try to keep your emotions in check as much as 199 00:10:37,062 --> 00:10:41,302 Speaker 1: possible and be really calm, and you want to leave 200 00:10:42,102 --> 00:10:44,782 Speaker 1: in the best way possible. You know, I've been so 201 00:10:44,902 --> 00:10:49,302 Speaker 1: impressed with people I know who have been made redundant 202 00:10:49,382 --> 00:10:51,622 Speaker 1: in the last year or so, and the way that 203 00:10:51,622 --> 00:10:55,942 Speaker 1: they've left their businesses has been so impressive and has 204 00:10:56,062 --> 00:11:00,182 Speaker 1: really made such a difference to their future employment prospects. 205 00:11:00,342 --> 00:11:04,782 Speaker 3: Yeah, you negotiate into a company with grace and you 206 00:11:04,822 --> 00:11:07,982 Speaker 3: put your best foot forward. And I think it's really 207 00:11:08,022 --> 00:11:11,142 Speaker 3: important to remember to I've heard it be called like 208 00:11:11,262 --> 00:11:14,942 Speaker 3: elegantly exit like, Yes, such a good thing to remember. Yeah, 209 00:11:14,982 --> 00:11:17,342 Speaker 3: and sometimes you do just have to take the high road. Yeah, 210 00:11:17,382 --> 00:11:20,462 Speaker 3: and just swallow your pride you do. On the not 211 00:11:20,582 --> 00:11:24,542 Speaker 3: taking it personally side of things. I think I saw 212 00:11:24,542 --> 00:11:29,062 Speaker 3: a headline that said something like shows over for meya. 213 00:11:29,142 --> 00:11:32,102 Speaker 1: Yes, I arranged to leave. I'd been part of launching 214 00:11:32,182 --> 00:11:36,262 Speaker 1: this new daytime show at Channel nine, and when I left, 215 00:11:36,822 --> 00:11:38,222 Speaker 1: they didn't tell me they were going to do this, 216 00:11:38,382 --> 00:11:40,542 Speaker 1: and I completely understand why they did. They axed the 217 00:11:40,582 --> 00:11:43,782 Speaker 1: show on that day, so it very much seemed like 218 00:11:44,382 --> 00:11:47,502 Speaker 1: I had been sacked, and it looked very bad, and 219 00:11:47,542 --> 00:11:50,542 Speaker 1: I get I completely understand why they did that, and 220 00:11:50,622 --> 00:11:52,982 Speaker 1: it was so funny. I remember going home and my 221 00:11:53,062 --> 00:11:55,622 Speaker 1: phone was blowing up and I just sat on my 222 00:11:55,702 --> 00:11:57,782 Speaker 1: bed with my laptop and my phone next to me, 223 00:11:58,582 --> 00:12:02,262 Speaker 1: and the big splash on all the news websites was 224 00:12:02,662 --> 00:12:04,862 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of publicity around Channel nine at 225 00:12:04,862 --> 00:12:07,622 Speaker 1: that time and about women leaving Channel nine and things, 226 00:12:07,862 --> 00:12:09,862 Speaker 1: and it was just a those kind of headline shows 227 00:12:09,902 --> 00:12:12,381 Speaker 1: over for me, a big pictures of me back when 228 00:12:12,422 --> 00:12:14,302 Speaker 1: it was a print newspaper, because this was almost twenty 229 00:12:14,382 --> 00:12:16,142 Speaker 1: years ago, you know, it was page three. It was 230 00:12:16,142 --> 00:12:18,382 Speaker 1: like this big picture of me, and I remember, as 231 00:12:18,462 --> 00:12:22,142 Speaker 1: humiliating as it was, I remember thinking to myself, Oh, well, 232 00:12:22,222 --> 00:12:25,142 Speaker 1: at least everybody will know that I'm available for employment, 233 00:12:25,942 --> 00:12:30,382 Speaker 1: so the phone will ring. And yet the phone never rang. 234 00:12:30,822 --> 00:12:31,862 Speaker 3: Why do you think that is? 235 00:12:32,222 --> 00:12:35,261 Speaker 1: To be honest, my reputation had been damaged so much 236 00:12:35,302 --> 00:12:38,262 Speaker 1: by the time I'd been at Channel nine for a 237 00:12:38,342 --> 00:12:40,782 Speaker 1: variety of reasons. It was the culture there at that 238 00:12:40,822 --> 00:12:44,302 Speaker 1: time was really bad. There'd been awful like leaks, and 239 00:12:45,022 --> 00:12:49,062 Speaker 1: it was just a very very bad culture. And my 240 00:12:49,142 --> 00:12:51,862 Speaker 1: reputation had really been trashed. And I'd had such a 241 00:12:51,902 --> 00:12:54,782 Speaker 1: great reputation from the fifteen years prior when I'd worked 242 00:12:54,822 --> 00:12:57,542 Speaker 1: in magazines. I worked really hard and I'd got to 243 00:12:57,582 --> 00:13:01,422 Speaker 1: the top of my field, and it was like literally 244 00:13:01,422 --> 00:13:05,022 Speaker 1: wiped out in a matter of months. And so the 245 00:13:05,062 --> 00:13:07,742 Speaker 1: phone never rang, and I was so shocked by that. 246 00:13:07,902 --> 00:13:12,381 Speaker 1: I was so her and shocked, and I lost all 247 00:13:12,422 --> 00:13:16,782 Speaker 1: my confidence. But I must have known. I must have 248 00:13:16,902 --> 00:13:21,062 Speaker 1: suspected because when I was planning my redundancy in that 249 00:13:21,142 --> 00:13:23,342 Speaker 1: last when I was thinking about leaving and telling them 250 00:13:23,382 --> 00:13:26,302 Speaker 1: I wanted a redundancy. And then in the few days 251 00:13:26,422 --> 00:13:29,942 Speaker 1: that I left, on the day that my redundancy was announced, 252 00:13:30,262 --> 00:13:33,502 Speaker 1: I launched a pressed publish on Mamma Mea for my 253 00:13:33,542 --> 00:13:35,142 Speaker 1: first post, because I knew that there'd be a lot 254 00:13:35,142 --> 00:13:37,862 Speaker 1: of media interest, and I was like, well, best I 255 00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:40,422 Speaker 1: capitalize on that, because I'll have twenty four hours in 256 00:13:40,422 --> 00:13:43,462 Speaker 1: the news cycle. Yeap. This was pre social media, of course, 257 00:13:44,022 --> 00:13:46,902 Speaker 1: and I want to make sure I people know where 258 00:13:46,902 --> 00:13:48,382 Speaker 1: I am and they know where to find me. So 259 00:13:49,262 --> 00:13:51,942 Speaker 1: I did that. My first post was about why I 260 00:13:51,942 --> 00:13:54,982 Speaker 1: had left. But I was very careful and have been 261 00:13:55,022 --> 00:13:59,342 Speaker 1: careful to this day to not trash anyone individually, to 262 00:13:59,982 --> 00:14:03,102 Speaker 1: go with grace, as you just said, elegantly exit. And 263 00:14:03,582 --> 00:14:08,702 Speaker 1: even though I was personally devastated, bitter, angry, resentful, all 264 00:14:08,742 --> 00:14:12,182 Speaker 1: of those things, I held it in check. And that 265 00:14:12,262 --> 00:14:14,822 Speaker 1: was hard, but I had something to do, so even 266 00:14:14,862 --> 00:14:17,462 Speaker 1: though I wasn't offered anything, I thought, I'll do this, 267 00:14:17,662 --> 00:14:21,782 Speaker 1: I'll launched this blog and I'll start it while I wait, 268 00:14:21,902 --> 00:14:23,862 Speaker 1: while I decide what's going to happen next. And I 269 00:14:23,902 --> 00:14:26,942 Speaker 1: feel job offers, and those job offers never came, which 270 00:14:26,982 --> 00:14:29,782 Speaker 1: is actually a really lucky thing because it meant that 271 00:14:29,822 --> 00:14:30,942 Speaker 1: I had to just keep going. 272 00:14:32,062 --> 00:14:34,382 Speaker 3: I think this is so interesting. I feel like you 273 00:14:34,422 --> 00:14:38,342 Speaker 3: were taken to one of the scariest places where it's 274 00:14:38,582 --> 00:14:43,742 Speaker 3: redundancy and then reputational damage and kind of being dragged 275 00:14:43,782 --> 00:14:46,142 Speaker 3: publicly in a way that is out of your control 276 00:14:46,222 --> 00:14:49,422 Speaker 3: and you're not going to retaliate. You just have to 277 00:14:49,822 --> 00:14:52,142 Speaker 3: suck it up. Yeah, I do think that would be 278 00:14:52,142 --> 00:14:54,702 Speaker 3: one of the scariest places to be taken to how 279 00:14:54,742 --> 00:14:57,262 Speaker 3: do you rebuild your confidence? 280 00:14:57,902 --> 00:15:00,502 Speaker 1: Took a really long time. There's no easy way to 281 00:15:00,582 --> 00:15:04,222 Speaker 1: say it. It wasn't a magic pill, you know, after 282 00:15:04,262 --> 00:15:06,862 Speaker 1: the adrenaline of all of that wears off. And now, 283 00:15:06,942 --> 00:15:09,822 Speaker 1: I guess everybody, and I've read a lot of them 284 00:15:10,022 --> 00:15:13,622 Speaker 1: now makes those announcements on LinkedIn and the phrasing of 285 00:15:13,662 --> 00:15:17,102 Speaker 1: what you say is very important. And there's so As 286 00:15:17,102 --> 00:15:18,902 Speaker 1: you said, forty percent of the people who replied to 287 00:15:18,902 --> 00:15:21,822 Speaker 1: you out of two thousand had been made redundant. It's 288 00:15:21,862 --> 00:15:25,262 Speaker 1: a really really common thing. And it's not like people go, oh, 289 00:15:25,302 --> 00:15:29,902 Speaker 1: she's shit, she's got a bad smell about her because 290 00:15:29,942 --> 00:15:33,942 Speaker 1: she's made redundant. My reputation was destroyed not because of 291 00:15:33,942 --> 00:15:36,582 Speaker 1: my redundancy, but what had happened during the time I 292 00:15:36,662 --> 00:15:39,062 Speaker 1: was there, and the stories that had been leaked about 293 00:15:39,102 --> 00:15:41,822 Speaker 1: me to the press that were not true, and that 294 00:15:41,862 --> 00:15:45,622 Speaker 1: sort of reputational smearing that happened while I was there, 295 00:15:46,142 --> 00:15:48,142 Speaker 1: and also the fact that the show I launched sort 296 00:15:48,182 --> 00:15:51,582 Speaker 1: of didn't work and wasn't very good, and I've got 297 00:15:51,582 --> 00:15:53,742 Speaker 1: to completely own that, and also the fact that I 298 00:15:53,742 --> 00:15:55,422 Speaker 1: should never have gone to this job because it wasn't 299 00:15:55,422 --> 00:15:58,142 Speaker 1: a real job. It was an idea, but it wasn't 300 00:15:58,182 --> 00:16:00,182 Speaker 1: a real job. But I was so keen to get out. 301 00:16:00,222 --> 00:16:02,502 Speaker 1: And this actually speaks to a mistake not to make 302 00:16:02,542 --> 00:16:05,502 Speaker 1: after a redundancy, because when I left magazines, it was 303 00:16:05,502 --> 00:16:07,822 Speaker 1: when I had my second child, and I knew I 304 00:16:07,902 --> 00:16:10,302 Speaker 1: was done with magazines, but I didn't know what I 305 00:16:10,342 --> 00:16:13,542 Speaker 1: wanted to do next. And I learned the hard way, 306 00:16:13,822 --> 00:16:17,262 Speaker 1: never make a big career decision. For me, it's in 307 00:16:17,302 --> 00:16:20,262 Speaker 1: the twelve months after having a baby. For other people, 308 00:16:20,262 --> 00:16:21,062 Speaker 1: it might be less. 309 00:16:21,062 --> 00:16:21,302 Speaker 4: For me. 310 00:16:21,422 --> 00:16:24,062 Speaker 1: Usually coincides with the amount of time that I'm breastfeeding. 311 00:16:24,862 --> 00:16:26,782 Speaker 1: I didn't breastfeed her for a year because I had 312 00:16:26,822 --> 00:16:29,022 Speaker 1: a lot of problems with that. But in that first 313 00:16:29,022 --> 00:16:33,222 Speaker 1: few months, when I was sleep deprived, hormonal, was having 314 00:16:33,302 --> 00:16:36,982 Speaker 1: a really hard time, I made the decision. I knew 315 00:16:36,982 --> 00:16:38,422 Speaker 1: I wanted to leave magazines, but I didn't know where 316 00:16:38,422 --> 00:16:39,982 Speaker 1: I wanted to go. This job was offered to me, 317 00:16:40,062 --> 00:16:42,622 Speaker 1: and I went sure, and I jumped at it, and 318 00:16:42,662 --> 00:16:46,422 Speaker 1: it was really stupid because I didn't think carefully enough 319 00:16:46,702 --> 00:16:48,782 Speaker 1: and it wasn't enough of a job, so I didn't 320 00:16:49,102 --> 00:16:52,462 Speaker 1: do my due diligence. I didn't really prosecute that decision. Well, 321 00:16:52,782 --> 00:16:57,462 Speaker 1: so back to never make an emotional decision. That's a 322 00:16:57,502 --> 00:16:59,982 Speaker 1: really important thing to keep in mind after a redundancy, 323 00:17:00,222 --> 00:17:03,142 Speaker 1: because you know, it's almost like heartbreak. The first person 324 00:17:03,142 --> 00:17:05,861 Speaker 1: who comes along and looks at you, You're like, oh, 325 00:17:05,902 --> 00:17:08,782 Speaker 1: you do like me, okay, And they might be a dickhead, yeah, 326 00:17:08,821 --> 00:17:12,661 Speaker 1: but you're just so desperate for some validation that you 327 00:17:12,702 --> 00:17:14,581 Speaker 1: want to be very careful about the thing you do next. 328 00:17:14,782 --> 00:17:17,581 Speaker 3: That's so fascinating because I actually listened to a podcast 329 00:17:17,661 --> 00:17:19,981 Speaker 3: and I think it was recommended by Jesse Stevens, and 330 00:17:20,022 --> 00:17:22,981 Speaker 3: it was about intuition and it said at the time 331 00:17:23,061 --> 00:17:26,661 Speaker 3: to never trust your intuition. And it's when you're going 332 00:17:26,742 --> 00:17:30,182 Speaker 3: through a huge emotional change. It actually labels like a breakup, 333 00:17:30,222 --> 00:17:33,262 Speaker 3: but motherhood would totally be one too, Like your intuition 334 00:17:33,422 --> 00:17:34,222 Speaker 3: is completely off. 335 00:17:34,262 --> 00:17:37,181 Speaker 1: Yeah, during moments like that's exactly right for me. I 336 00:17:37,302 --> 00:17:40,941 Speaker 1: was just not thinking clearly and it took me a 337 00:17:40,982 --> 00:17:43,061 Speaker 1: long time to recover from it, and it took me 338 00:17:43,101 --> 00:17:46,261 Speaker 1: a long time to build my confidence back up and 339 00:17:46,302 --> 00:17:49,101 Speaker 1: build my reputation. It took me a really really long time. 340 00:17:49,341 --> 00:17:51,421 Speaker 1: But I don't think that's the case after redundancy. I 341 00:17:51,462 --> 00:17:54,022 Speaker 1: was actually funny enough speaking to someone yesterday who'd just 342 00:17:54,101 --> 00:17:57,221 Speaker 1: been made redundant in quite a high profile way, but 343 00:17:57,302 --> 00:17:59,581 Speaker 1: it was very clear that it was nothing to do 344 00:17:59,661 --> 00:18:02,222 Speaker 1: with her. It was just a restructure of the company, 345 00:18:02,621 --> 00:18:04,901 Speaker 1: and she was actually feeling great about it. You know, 346 00:18:05,262 --> 00:18:07,142 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who've actually been through 347 00:18:07,182 --> 00:18:11,181 Speaker 1: it lately, and you see the twin sides of the 348 00:18:11,302 --> 00:18:14,901 Speaker 1: hurt and the Of course it's humiliating and you feel ashamed, 349 00:18:15,661 --> 00:18:17,942 Speaker 1: but you get over that and the decision you make 350 00:18:18,022 --> 00:18:20,222 Speaker 1: next is one that can change everything. 351 00:18:20,341 --> 00:18:24,421 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think internally it hurts more externally, like the 352 00:18:24,462 --> 00:18:27,141 Speaker 3: optics really aren't aren't bad, and no one's thinking, no, 353 00:18:27,302 --> 00:18:28,142 Speaker 3: you're shit at your job. 354 00:18:28,341 --> 00:18:28,421 Speaker 5: No. 355 00:18:28,542 --> 00:18:30,901 Speaker 1: It's like as an employer also, I'll often look at 356 00:18:30,942 --> 00:18:34,302 Speaker 1: CVS and there'll be someone who's been somewhere for a year, 357 00:18:34,821 --> 00:18:37,262 Speaker 1: and I probably stayed at this job. I probably should 358 00:18:37,262 --> 00:18:39,222 Speaker 1: have left much earlier, but I was so worried about 359 00:18:39,262 --> 00:18:41,461 Speaker 1: how it would look a lot of people have that 360 00:18:41,542 --> 00:18:44,022 Speaker 1: experience of just going somewhere for a year. The question 361 00:18:44,101 --> 00:18:46,742 Speaker 1: is the narrative you tell I've had it, Yeah, exactly, 362 00:18:46,821 --> 00:18:49,901 Speaker 1: we've had it. And the question is how anything can 363 00:18:50,101 --> 00:18:52,101 Speaker 1: be explained with the right narrative. The thing not to 364 00:18:52,182 --> 00:18:55,462 Speaker 1: do is to say anything negative, whether you were made redundant, 365 00:18:55,462 --> 00:18:57,621 Speaker 1: whether you lost your job, whether you quit because the 366 00:18:57,661 --> 00:19:00,222 Speaker 1: place was a night there. The point is the narrative 367 00:19:00,262 --> 00:19:03,861 Speaker 1: that you tell to your next prospective employer. Yeah. I 368 00:19:03,901 --> 00:19:05,941 Speaker 1: completely agree, And I think what would you say? What 369 00:19:06,022 --> 00:19:08,302 Speaker 1: did you when people were like, oh, you're only there 370 00:19:08,302 --> 00:19:10,502 Speaker 1: for a little bit of time. And also people love 371 00:19:10,502 --> 00:19:13,061 Speaker 1: a bit of gossip. Yeah, and to be bad if 372 00:19:13,101 --> 00:19:14,901 Speaker 1: you're interviewing someone and you're like, oh, what happened, and 373 00:19:14,942 --> 00:19:17,662 Speaker 1: it's like the minute they start bad mouthing, even though 374 00:19:17,782 --> 00:19:20,302 Speaker 1: partly you do want to know the goss, the minute 375 00:19:20,302 --> 00:19:25,502 Speaker 1: they start bad mouthing their former employer, for me, that's disqualifying. 376 00:19:24,861 --> 00:19:27,982 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. My narrative has always been went there 377 00:19:28,141 --> 00:19:32,182 Speaker 3: to build X skill set, achieved, that learned a lot, 378 00:19:32,422 --> 00:19:34,422 Speaker 3: was always gearing up to do this next thing. 379 00:19:35,141 --> 00:19:36,821 Speaker 1: And even if you say it wasn't for me for 380 00:19:36,901 --> 00:19:39,701 Speaker 1: these reasons, or you say I was made redundant for 381 00:19:39,821 --> 00:19:41,861 Speaker 1: these reasons, you just got to own it. 382 00:19:41,942 --> 00:19:44,741 Speaker 3: I think, I agree. I think the narrative, it's all 383 00:19:44,782 --> 00:19:49,262 Speaker 3: about the narrative. You're an employer, how do you view redundancies? 384 00:19:49,302 --> 00:19:50,621 Speaker 3: Do you see them as a red flag. 385 00:19:50,942 --> 00:19:53,502 Speaker 1: I see redundancies as an opportunity. So there's been a 386 00:19:53,581 --> 00:19:56,861 Speaker 1: huge number of redundancies in media lately, and the first 387 00:19:56,861 --> 00:20:00,222 Speaker 1: thing we do is see who's been made redundant and 388 00:20:00,702 --> 00:20:03,581 Speaker 1: often have a conversation with them, see if the skill 389 00:20:03,621 --> 00:20:05,941 Speaker 1: set of that person and the experience of that person 390 00:20:06,022 --> 00:20:08,901 Speaker 1: could fit into our company. Because every business is a 391 00:20:08,901 --> 00:20:12,222 Speaker 1: different shape, so all the reasons that someone's been made 392 00:20:12,381 --> 00:20:16,262 Speaker 1: redundant from one place probably doesn't apply to you. So 393 00:20:16,462 --> 00:20:19,421 Speaker 1: anyone who's been made redundant my years always pick up 394 00:20:19,422 --> 00:20:21,981 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, I'm literally oh, how could we 395 00:20:22,061 --> 00:20:24,821 Speaker 1: find a way to fit them in? And you've got 396 00:20:24,821 --> 00:20:26,502 Speaker 1: to be careful as an employee because you don't want 397 00:20:26,502 --> 00:20:29,542 Speaker 1: to shoehorn someone in just because they're great on paper, 398 00:20:29,661 --> 00:20:31,782 Speaker 1: or you've got to make sure that you've got the 399 00:20:31,861 --> 00:20:35,261 Speaker 1: right hole for whatever shape they are. But it certainly 400 00:20:35,341 --> 00:20:37,622 Speaker 1: doesn't put me off such. 401 00:20:37,422 --> 00:20:40,061 Speaker 3: A good perspective. It's an opportunity for the individual, and 402 00:20:40,101 --> 00:20:42,421 Speaker 3: it's an opportunity for business owners. Like Yeah, in the 403 00:20:42,462 --> 00:20:45,502 Speaker 3: tech world, we will get sent lists of all these 404 00:20:45,542 --> 00:20:49,142 Speaker 3: amazing engineers talent that have been laid off at other 405 00:20:49,222 --> 00:20:51,661 Speaker 3: tech companies and we look through it like, fuck, yeah, 406 00:20:51,742 --> 00:20:52,181 Speaker 3: can we here? 407 00:20:52,302 --> 00:20:54,542 Speaker 1: Can we? Absolutely? And so that's why you don't have 408 00:20:54,581 --> 00:20:56,341 Speaker 1: to have your tail between your legs. You just have 409 00:20:56,422 --> 00:20:58,381 Speaker 1: to own it. And that doesn't mean you can't say 410 00:20:58,661 --> 00:21:00,941 Speaker 1: to a future employee, yeah, I was really disappointed. I 411 00:21:00,982 --> 00:21:03,662 Speaker 1: loved it there, or I understand why it happened. I mean, 412 00:21:03,661 --> 00:21:06,782 Speaker 1: that's if you can ever say I completely understand. Was 413 00:21:06,782 --> 00:21:09,421 Speaker 1: I disappointed? Sure, but it makes sense. 414 00:21:09,782 --> 00:21:12,222 Speaker 3: Yeah, love that. Okay, we'll have to do a follow 415 00:21:12,262 --> 00:21:14,421 Speaker 3: up episode on how to stay in a job for 416 00:21:14,462 --> 00:21:15,621 Speaker 3: twelve months when you ate it? 417 00:21:16,022 --> 00:21:18,701 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, man? And should I have just pulled the 418 00:21:18,742 --> 00:21:21,581 Speaker 1: pin on that first day when I went and I 419 00:21:22,502 --> 00:21:24,861 Speaker 1: knew it wasn't right. When I'd been trying to work 420 00:21:24,901 --> 00:21:27,502 Speaker 1: out with my then about to be boss, we'd been 421 00:21:27,502 --> 00:21:29,501 Speaker 1: trying to land on a title and we just couldn't 422 00:21:29,581 --> 00:21:31,981 Speaker 1: land on one. And that's a red flag, which I 423 00:21:32,022 --> 00:21:34,342 Speaker 1: hadn't realized because I had baby brain at the time, 424 00:21:34,901 --> 00:21:38,102 Speaker 1: and also because I hadn't really moved companies before, I'd 425 00:21:38,101 --> 00:21:41,261 Speaker 1: worked in one for one employer until then. But on 426 00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:43,661 Speaker 1: that first day, I went and introduced myself to someone 427 00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:45,581 Speaker 1: in the next office next to me, and they're like, oh, 428 00:21:45,621 --> 00:21:46,981 Speaker 1: what do you do? And I said, I'm the creative 429 00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:49,262 Speaker 1: services director and they went, that's my title. 430 00:21:49,542 --> 00:21:50,181 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 431 00:21:50,302 --> 00:21:52,942 Speaker 1: And I should have known. Yeah that day. 432 00:21:53,302 --> 00:22:05,942 Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, projecked red flags and employers as well. 433 00:22:06,141 --> 00:22:08,902 Speaker 4: You know what's funny, Michelle, I thought this topic might 434 00:22:08,942 --> 00:22:12,262 Speaker 4: only be really to like a certain segment of our listeners, 435 00:22:12,341 --> 00:22:15,742 Speaker 4: But that is some of the most wise career advice 436 00:22:15,821 --> 00:22:20,941 Speaker 4: that is so broadly applicable to anyone. How good is 437 00:22:21,022 --> 00:22:24,542 Speaker 4: hearing another woman's story to give you perspective on your 438 00:22:24,581 --> 00:22:27,901 Speaker 4: own situation, Like I'm just thinking about hearing me I 439 00:22:27,942 --> 00:22:31,262 Speaker 4: talk about her reputation and how literally her redundancy was 440 00:22:31,302 --> 00:22:34,901 Speaker 4: splashed over these insane headlines. I the other day was 441 00:22:34,901 --> 00:22:37,422 Speaker 4: worried about my reputation because I accidentally posted the same 442 00:22:37,782 --> 00:22:40,101 Speaker 4: LinkedIn post twice and I was like, people are going 443 00:22:40,141 --> 00:22:41,861 Speaker 4: to think I'm a maurn And She's like, they're with 444 00:22:41,901 --> 00:22:44,702 Speaker 4: headlines a bit of perspective, not to make me feel bad, 445 00:22:44,742 --> 00:22:47,621 Speaker 4: but in terms of lessons that I'm going to commit 446 00:22:47,661 --> 00:22:50,181 Speaker 4: to my long term memory and just think about them 447 00:22:50,222 --> 00:22:52,662 Speaker 4: all the time. They're so relevant to everyone in their career. 448 00:22:52,982 --> 00:22:56,661 Speaker 4: One it's not personal, it's situational. I actually say that 449 00:22:56,702 --> 00:22:59,741 Speaker 4: to myself in so many cases at work. So I 450 00:22:59,782 --> 00:23:01,782 Speaker 4: think that part where you guys were talking about when 451 00:23:01,821 --> 00:23:04,542 Speaker 4: you get made redundant, it's either the skills or the 452 00:23:04,581 --> 00:23:06,421 Speaker 4: company structure that needs to change. 453 00:23:06,661 --> 00:23:07,542 Speaker 5: So this idea that. 454 00:23:07,502 --> 00:23:10,381 Speaker 4: It's not personal, it's actually situational, I think relieve so 455 00:23:10,502 --> 00:23:13,382 Speaker 4: much of the kind of emotional pressure that we put 456 00:23:13,422 --> 00:23:15,701 Speaker 4: on ourselves. And I think that's just broadly applicable to 457 00:23:15,742 --> 00:23:18,061 Speaker 4: so many things at work. I actually read the other 458 00:23:18,141 --> 00:23:20,222 Speaker 4: day that in terms of your skills in your job, 459 00:23:20,621 --> 00:23:23,302 Speaker 4: one third of people's roles are going to be affected 460 00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:25,701 Speaker 4: by AI. So I think this idea of like, you 461 00:23:25,782 --> 00:23:28,101 Speaker 4: probably are going to need to change your skills, company 462 00:23:28,141 --> 00:23:31,381 Speaker 4: structures probably are going to change, and I think just 463 00:23:31,462 --> 00:23:33,661 Speaker 4: being able to recognize that it's nothing wrong with you, 464 00:23:33,782 --> 00:23:35,421 Speaker 4: it's just that we have to adapt and change. I 465 00:23:35,462 --> 00:23:36,381 Speaker 4: thought that was very cool. 466 00:23:36,702 --> 00:23:40,661 Speaker 3: Also your mindset around this, so just making the distinction 467 00:23:40,982 --> 00:23:45,101 Speaker 3: that it's not personal, it's the situation, because we probably 468 00:23:45,141 --> 00:23:47,542 Speaker 3: all are going to be faced with this relatively soon. 469 00:23:47,901 --> 00:23:50,861 Speaker 4: I loved the part around keep your emotions in check 470 00:23:50,901 --> 00:23:54,781 Speaker 4: and have grace that elegant exit. It's just you know, 471 00:23:54,821 --> 00:23:57,262 Speaker 4: again like applying that to so many situations at work. 472 00:23:57,302 --> 00:23:59,982 Speaker 4: I say to myself all the time, like, just try 473 00:23:59,982 --> 00:24:01,702 Speaker 4: to have grace in this situation. How do you want 474 00:24:01,702 --> 00:24:06,262 Speaker 4: to show up? And just don't trash people, like in general, 475 00:24:06,581 --> 00:24:09,341 Speaker 4: don't go around trashing people at work. The second point 476 00:24:09,422 --> 00:24:12,781 Speaker 4: was around when Mia said, you know, it was a 477 00:24:12,782 --> 00:24:15,502 Speaker 4: hard conversation, but that lasted for about two weeks, and 478 00:24:15,542 --> 00:24:17,302 Speaker 4: then on the other side of it, it was so 479 00:24:17,422 --> 00:24:19,621 Speaker 4: much goodness. I think that is something you can apply 480 00:24:19,782 --> 00:24:23,821 Speaker 4: to so many situations at work. It's this acute short 481 00:24:23,901 --> 00:24:26,782 Speaker 4: term pain that we feel and then the long term 482 00:24:26,821 --> 00:24:29,621 Speaker 4: benefit is so worth it. So just like be willing 483 00:24:29,661 --> 00:24:31,662 Speaker 4: to have that difficult conversation at the time and then 484 00:24:31,942 --> 00:24:33,982 Speaker 4: just know that there's something really good on the other side. 485 00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:37,141 Speaker 3: Yeah, not like cutting yourself short because you're trying to 486 00:24:37,262 --> 00:24:39,022 Speaker 3: escape an uncomfortable situation. 487 00:24:39,542 --> 00:24:41,861 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so it. And then the last way it 488 00:24:41,942 --> 00:24:45,862 Speaker 4: was around every situation is recoverable and owning your narrative. 489 00:24:46,101 --> 00:24:48,861 Speaker 4: Again for me, like just this idea, I found it 490 00:24:48,942 --> 00:24:52,461 Speaker 4: so refreshing that, Yeah, she talked about the toxic culture 491 00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:54,022 Speaker 4: there and all these problems with you know, there wasn't 492 00:24:54,022 --> 00:24:55,902 Speaker 4: actually a role for her instructure and things like that. 493 00:24:56,302 --> 00:24:58,701 Speaker 4: But I also really loved her honesty around. You know, 494 00:24:58,782 --> 00:25:00,901 Speaker 4: she had this big project and it didn't really work. 495 00:25:00,982 --> 00:25:03,982 Speaker 4: She was so non emotional and objective about this failure. 496 00:25:04,022 --> 00:25:06,782 Speaker 4: And I feel like we all talk about, oh, yeah, 497 00:25:06,861 --> 00:25:09,462 Speaker 4: learn from your failure, and you know, failing is good, 498 00:25:10,182 --> 00:25:11,982 Speaker 4: but it never feels like that because no one really 499 00:25:11,982 --> 00:25:14,421 Speaker 4: talks about times when they have failed. So I just 500 00:25:14,542 --> 00:25:17,181 Speaker 4: loved that she talked about something that didn't work, and 501 00:25:17,422 --> 00:25:20,261 Speaker 4: like she's been a rocket ship since then. So I 502 00:25:20,341 --> 00:25:23,021 Speaker 4: just think owning your narrative, knowing that you have choices 503 00:25:23,061 --> 00:25:24,581 Speaker 4: and there are things that you can do, even to 504 00:25:24,621 --> 00:25:27,022 Speaker 4: her point, like LinkedIn didn't exist at the time. Now 505 00:25:27,061 --> 00:25:29,061 Speaker 4: we've all got a platform and you can sort of 506 00:25:29,502 --> 00:25:31,341 Speaker 4: you can course correct, you can kind of position things 507 00:25:31,381 --> 00:25:33,661 Speaker 4: in the way you want to position them, and like 508 00:25:33,782 --> 00:25:37,302 Speaker 4: everything is recoverable. So yeah, those are the three lessons 509 00:25:37,341 --> 00:25:39,982 Speaker 4: that I am going to take away from this interview, 510 00:25:39,982 --> 00:25:41,022 Speaker 4: and thank you so much. 511 00:25:41,262 --> 00:25:44,462 Speaker 3: I think those were great things to drive home. That 512 00:25:44,542 --> 00:25:47,582 Speaker 3: last one in particular, she did just own that that 513 00:25:47,661 --> 00:25:51,581 Speaker 3: show was basically a flop and there was nothing much 514 00:25:51,581 --> 00:25:53,381 Speaker 3: else to it. It was just like, yeah, it didn't work. 515 00:25:53,502 --> 00:25:56,221 Speaker 3: It was so unemotional. I feel like we've all got this. 516 00:25:56,302 --> 00:25:58,302 Speaker 4: Whenever we talk about our failures, it's sort of like 517 00:25:58,341 --> 00:26:00,302 Speaker 4: it has to be this big thing. It's just like, 518 00:26:00,661 --> 00:26:02,941 Speaker 4: very objectively, the show didn't work again. Back to that 519 00:26:02,982 --> 00:26:05,821 Speaker 4: thing around. It wasn't personal. It doesn't mean she is 520 00:26:05,901 --> 00:26:08,542 Speaker 4: bad at her job or will be forever. It's just 521 00:26:08,581 --> 00:26:10,621 Speaker 4: like the show didn't work ever. Move on and I 522 00:26:10,782 --> 00:26:13,982 Speaker 4: just yeah, that's definitely my favorite too. 523 00:26:18,061 --> 00:26:22,262 Speaker 2: The biggest takeaway from today's episode is that redundancy isn't personal, 524 00:26:22,422 --> 00:26:25,421 Speaker 2: it's situational. As Mia showed us, it can actually be 525 00:26:25,502 --> 00:26:28,742 Speaker 2: the push you need towards something much better. And here's 526 00:26:28,742 --> 00:26:31,502 Speaker 2: a practical tip. If you're going through a redundancy, head 527 00:26:31,502 --> 00:26:33,621 Speaker 2: to the fair Work website. There'll be a link in 528 00:26:33,661 --> 00:26:36,861 Speaker 2: our show notes. They have a fantastic calculated tool that 529 00:26:36,901 --> 00:26:39,542 Speaker 2: you can put in all your employment details and you 530 00:26:39,581 --> 00:26:42,741 Speaker 2: can actually find out exactly what pay out you're entitled to. 531 00:26:43,581 --> 00:26:46,502 Speaker 2: For more career advice and weekly work tips, make sure 532 00:26:46,502 --> 00:26:49,781 Speaker 2: you're subscribed to our biz newsletter. We have everything in 533 00:26:49,821 --> 00:26:52,261 Speaker 2: there for you. And also don't forget to follow us 534 00:26:52,262 --> 00:26:54,502 Speaker 2: on Instagram at biz by Mom and Mia. We are 535 00:26:54,542 --> 00:26:57,742 Speaker 2: constantly posting there and you can even save our little posts, 536 00:26:57,742 --> 00:26:59,821 Speaker 2: because that's literally what i've been doing.