WEBVTT - Clare Stephens Was Always ‘The Twin’ or ‘The Editor.’ What Happened When She Walked Away? 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:18.485 is recorded on. 0:00:18.725 --> 0:00:24.525 I'm comparing myself to a person who objectively, You're the 0:00:24.565 --> 0:00:27.085 hardest working person I've ever known. You're one of the 0:00:27.125 --> 0:00:30.285 smartest people I've ever known. You're so creative, Like, Oh 0:00:30.365 --> 0:00:32.245 my god, did that have to be my twin? 0:00:37.285 --> 0:00:40.525 Oh my goodness. I cannot wait for today's guest. 0:00:41.085 --> 0:00:43.325 It is someone who has spent most of her adult 0:00:43.365 --> 0:00:48.485 life right here in the Mamma Mia office. It's Claire Stevens, 0:00:48.565 --> 0:00:52.485 who once was known as Claire from Mamma Mia, where 0:00:52.525 --> 0:00:55.805 she rose to become editor in chief, shaping some of 0:00:55.845 --> 0:01:00.605 the most viral stories and conversations in the Australian media landscape. 0:01:00.725 --> 0:01:04.365 And she's also a twin. You might have heard of 0:01:04.365 --> 0:01:04.925 her sister. 0:01:06.085 --> 0:01:10.765 It's an identity that has defined her since birth, but 0:01:10.845 --> 0:01:13.925 in recent years Claire has been on a journey to 0:01:14.005 --> 0:01:18.445 discover who she is when those labels are stripped away. 0:01:19.805 --> 0:01:22.525 Her career has taken her from the newsroom to screenwriting 0:01:22.525 --> 0:01:26.405 on the hit series Strife, to creating a podcast about 0:01:26.445 --> 0:01:30.205 public pylons, and now to publishing. 0:01:29.725 --> 0:01:30.765 Her first novel. 0:01:31.405 --> 0:01:35.845 It's really good, the worst thing I've ever done, A sharp, 0:01:36.045 --> 0:01:39.525 compassionate look at cancel culture and the way the Internet 0:01:39.565 --> 0:01:41.365 can turn on anyone at any time. 0:01:42.445 --> 0:01:43.525 Claire has also. 0:01:43.445 --> 0:01:46.525 Lived through her own defining moments, from a traumatic birth 0:01:46.645 --> 0:01:50.725 to navigating the brutality of online scrutiny, and she has 0:01:50.925 --> 0:01:55.845 thought deeply about the invisible cost of how we treat 0:01:56.005 --> 0:02:01.885 women online. This is truly a conversation about identity and 0:02:02.405 --> 0:02:06.045 what happens when the Internet forgets is a human being 0:02:06.445 --> 0:02:07.685 on the other side of the screen. 0:02:09.685 --> 0:02:12.525 Stevens, Welcome to No Filter. 0:02:12.965 --> 0:02:14.165 Thank you for having me now. 0:02:14.245 --> 0:02:16.565 I don't know if you know about this organization. 0:02:16.805 --> 0:02:17.565 Haven't heard much. 0:02:17.765 --> 0:02:18.365 Mumma maya. 0:02:18.845 --> 0:02:23.565 Yeah interesting, although, as Siri pronounces it on my phone, mammaemia. 0:02:23.245 --> 0:02:25.285 Oh no, that's so upsetting. 0:02:25.485 --> 0:02:28.485 And it's a platform for women and girls, Okay. 0:02:28.725 --> 0:02:30.885 Is it related to the ab song or. 0:02:31.405 --> 0:02:34.485 Oh well, I don't know what the genesis of it. 0:02:34.605 --> 0:02:37.765 Was, ok Because often when I used to tell people 0:02:37.765 --> 0:02:38.805 I worked from Mayo. 0:02:38.925 --> 0:02:41.205 Go oh my god, I love the musical. 0:02:41.405 --> 0:02:45.205 The Aba Musical, And I'm like, honestly, some days I'd 0:02:45.245 --> 0:02:46.565 love to work for the Aba Musical. 0:02:46.845 --> 0:02:49.845 Not if it's the part where Piterce Brosnan is singing, 0:02:50.365 --> 0:02:52.205 oh no, no, no, that was very bad. 0:02:52.725 --> 0:02:55.405 Every every Meryl Street moment, all. 0:02:55.365 --> 0:02:59.765 Of those exactly, we take any merrill. Now listen, this 0:03:00.005 --> 0:03:01.325 is your exit interview. 0:03:01.685 --> 0:03:05.805 Oh my god, no, oh no. So when did you leave, 0:03:06.445 --> 0:03:07.005 Mamma Mia. 0:03:07.845 --> 0:03:10.605 I left beginning of this year. 0:03:11.005 --> 0:03:12.165 It was sort of recently. 0:03:12.405 --> 0:03:16.645 Yes, so I sort of wrapped up end of last year, right, 0:03:16.805 --> 0:03:19.685 and then wasn't coming back in the new year. So 0:03:19.805 --> 0:03:22.085 it's mean I'm trying to remind myself sometimes a panic, 0:03:22.405 --> 0:03:22.685 I'm like. 0:03:22.685 --> 0:03:25.445 Oh my gosh, I've been gone for that long and 0:03:25.605 --> 0:03:27.565 have I done all the things that I wanted to do? 0:03:27.725 --> 0:03:30.765 And then I think, hold on, it hasn't actually been 0:03:30.845 --> 0:03:31.165 that long. 0:03:31.565 --> 0:03:35.165 No, that's not long. And also because you were here 0:03:35.365 --> 0:03:41.245 for ten years years. Yeah, you came as after a 0:03:41.325 --> 0:03:43.485 phone call you got from Maya. Yeah that you thought 0:03:43.565 --> 0:03:44.005 was a prank. 0:03:44.685 --> 0:03:48.325 Yes, I got an email, an email from Maa, and 0:03:48.445 --> 0:03:51.605 I thought, this is so mean that somebody would pretend 0:03:51.645 --> 0:03:54.605 to be me a freedman. Because Jesse and I were 0:03:54.725 --> 0:03:57.525 my sister and I were writing a blog together that 0:03:57.605 --> 0:04:02.045 we loved and writing for a couple of very fringe publications, 0:04:02.685 --> 0:04:06.605 and then this email came from someone claiming to be 0:04:06.685 --> 0:04:10.485 Maya Friedman saying that they loved our writing. 0:04:10.285 --> 0:04:11.405 And wanted to that stage. 0:04:11.445 --> 0:04:14.685 You were doing the recaps of The Biggest Loser, which 0:04:14.765 --> 0:04:17.405 is that puts it in a time. 0:04:17.765 --> 0:04:19.525 It really does, it really does. 0:04:19.845 --> 0:04:21.805 And I was doing at the time, I was doing 0:04:21.885 --> 0:04:25.605 a Masters of research in eating disorders and obesity, and 0:04:25.725 --> 0:04:30.725 I wanted to get these kind of semi academic ideas 0:04:30.965 --> 0:04:34.765 about the way we talk about body shape and health 0:04:34.885 --> 0:04:36.925 and all of that. I wanted to put them in 0:04:37.005 --> 0:04:40.765 the mainstream and communicate them. So Jess and I had 0:04:40.805 --> 0:04:43.685 always watched The Biggest Loser for reasons we can't explain. 0:04:43.925 --> 0:04:44.445 We all did. 0:04:44.645 --> 0:04:47.125 Yeah, by the way, well I think we could explain it. 0:04:48.165 --> 0:04:51.205 I think we probably could. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fascinating. 0:04:51.365 --> 0:04:52.365 Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. 0:04:52.485 --> 0:04:56.645 And so we were recapping that, and yeah, Maya reached out, 0:04:56.845 --> 0:05:02.085 and from there I was so excited that somebody liked 0:05:02.685 --> 0:05:03.165 our writing. 0:05:03.845 --> 0:05:07.245 And also because then you were I mean you were 0:05:07.285 --> 0:05:10.165 born a unit. Yeah, the pair of you, you and Jesse, 0:05:10.845 --> 0:05:14.445 and then you came to Mauma Maya as a unit. 0:05:14.885 --> 0:05:17.645 Now that's what was Jesse's studying when you was doing 0:05:17.725 --> 0:05:18.285 your psyche. 0:05:18.605 --> 0:05:22.605 Jesse had finished her masters of research the year before 0:05:22.725 --> 0:05:26.285 she was She has a master's in history, history and 0:05:26.325 --> 0:05:28.565 gender studies, so she had finished. 0:05:28.925 --> 0:05:30.365 She really wanted to be unemployed. 0:05:31.045 --> 0:05:33.685 I know, I'm like, I want to study psychology, but 0:05:33.685 --> 0:05:34.925 I don't want to be a psychologist. 0:05:35.085 --> 0:05:36.965 Yeah, that's right. What do I want to do? 0:05:37.085 --> 0:05:38.925 A really great idea for employment. 0:05:39.285 --> 0:05:42.565 And so both of us in that year had sort 0:05:42.605 --> 0:05:45.445 of realized that we wanted to write, and we were 0:05:45.525 --> 0:05:50.885 looking at the media landscape thinking, you know, even looking 0:05:50.925 --> 0:05:54.125 at people who were social commentators almost and thinking how 0:05:54.205 --> 0:05:55.085 do you get to do that? 0:05:55.845 --> 0:05:59.485 And so was that at that time? What were you 0:05:59.525 --> 0:06:00.525 looking at? What was around? 0:06:00.725 --> 0:06:04.245 Remember, we were obsessed with Mamaya, Rosie Water. 0:06:06.285 --> 0:06:09.245 And the Bachelors and weirdly, who do you? 0:06:10.725 --> 0:06:15.525 A few months before Mia reached out, my cousin gifted 0:06:15.645 --> 0:06:18.805 us tickets to go and see Rosie's book launch. In 0:06:18.925 --> 0:06:21.285 conversation with Mia and so Jess and I sat in 0:06:21.365 --> 0:06:23.325 this audience and it was one of those moments where 0:06:23.325 --> 0:06:25.925 you go, oh God, I'd love to be part of 0:06:25.965 --> 0:06:26.765 this organization. 0:06:27.005 --> 0:06:29.045 I'd love to be Rosie Wonder, I'd love to do 0:06:29.125 --> 0:06:29.685 all these things. 0:06:30.005 --> 0:06:32.685 And then you go, but look around, probably all of 0:06:32.765 --> 0:06:34.365 these women would love that, and so it's not going 0:06:34.445 --> 0:06:37.565 to happen. And then so when Mia reached out, we 0:06:37.685 --> 0:06:41.085 were so surprised. But interestingly, on that first meeting, she 0:06:41.165 --> 0:06:46.885 said she was almost She said, oh, I thought that 0:06:46.965 --> 0:06:50.405 maybe you wouldn't maybe you're kind of too edgy for Mamya, 0:06:50.485 --> 0:06:52.005 Like you wouldn't think Mamya was cool. 0:06:52.245 --> 0:06:57.125 And we're like, ah, We're like, no, we love it. Well. 0:06:57.205 --> 0:07:00.405 I think you know that's been a hallmark of your 0:07:00.565 --> 0:07:03.165 work is very. 0:07:03.165 --> 0:07:07.765 Accessible, yep, yep, yeah, but also incorporating like some of 0:07:07.845 --> 0:07:13.245 these ideas for lutin ideas at university yea hopefully, which 0:07:13.325 --> 0:07:16.005 is a very difficult thing to do, to make the 0:07:16.285 --> 0:07:21.245 esoteric relatable and clear and to refine it so that 0:07:21.285 --> 0:07:24.325 people go, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. 0:07:24.445 --> 0:07:25.885 Yeah. Yeah, I hope. 0:07:25.965 --> 0:07:29.405 I hope that that's what both Jess and I are 0:07:29.485 --> 0:07:33.405 able to do, because when you're at UNI, you realize 0:07:33.525 --> 0:07:34.565 that you work on. 0:07:34.605 --> 0:07:36.005 Something for so long and. 0:07:37.605 --> 0:07:40.685 It in some cases will only be read by so 0:07:40.845 --> 0:07:44.205 few people, and you think there's a lot of research 0:07:44.245 --> 0:07:47.805 I did for my novel, like a lot of academic research, 0:07:48.325 --> 0:07:50.645 and I thought it's so interesting because this academic research 0:07:50.845 --> 0:07:54.685 is so clever and complex, and I wish everyone could 0:07:54.725 --> 0:07:59.645 read it, but it's behind a paywall. It is the 0:07:59.765 --> 0:08:02.805 type of language that not everybody can understand. 0:08:03.285 --> 0:08:04.885 It involves reading, exactly. 0:08:04.925 --> 0:08:10.445 It involves reading and understanding, you know, the all the 0:08:10.565 --> 0:08:13.845 layers of research, and it involves a whole lot of 0:08:13.845 --> 0:08:17.725 stuff that not everybody can access. So I think that 0:08:17.885 --> 0:08:20.565 there is something really important about getting those ideas and 0:08:20.645 --> 0:08:23.605 putting them in a palatable way that people can. 0:08:23.605 --> 0:08:27.165 Unders And also, what you and Jesse did together was 0:08:28.085 --> 0:08:29.285 use humor. 0:08:29.205 --> 0:08:30.725 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is. 0:08:30.925 --> 0:08:35.365 Such a gateway and it's it's actually I'm often amused 0:08:35.445 --> 0:08:39.645 by comedian friends who then go down a kind of 0:08:39.685 --> 0:08:42.765 more strident or political pathway because I think so few 0:08:42.805 --> 0:08:44.405 people have the gift of humor. 0:08:44.565 --> 0:08:45.525 Yep, ye, yeah. 0:08:45.525 --> 0:08:47.925 There's so many people that can tub thump and whatever, 0:08:48.125 --> 0:08:51.165 and that's important, but so few people have the gift 0:08:51.245 --> 0:08:55.685 of being able to parlay a thought through humor. And 0:08:55.885 --> 0:08:57.125 you two both had that. 0:08:57.365 --> 0:08:58.045 Oh thank you. 0:08:58.725 --> 0:09:01.845 And so at what point did you realize when you 0:09:02.045 --> 0:09:04.805 came in to Mum and Mia And to me, it 0:09:04.925 --> 0:09:08.485 kind of feels that you've always been here, Yeah, what 0:09:08.685 --> 0:09:09.125 point did you? 0:09:10.045 --> 0:09:11.845 Oh, way this is working? 0:09:12.805 --> 0:09:16.365 I think it was a couple of years in like 0:09:16.445 --> 0:09:20.165 we both of us when we started had a moment 0:09:20.405 --> 0:09:24.645 of thinking, oh wow, I feel like this was where 0:09:24.685 --> 0:09:25.645 I was always meant to be. 0:09:25.885 --> 0:09:28.645 Like we both, I'll speak myself. 0:09:28.725 --> 0:09:34.925 I love ideas and building concepts and challenging each other 0:09:35.085 --> 0:09:39.365 and all of that, and the being around women who 0:09:39.725 --> 0:09:43.525 just were so clever and so creative I found really exciting. 0:09:43.925 --> 0:09:45.645 The other thing And I don't know if you feel this, 0:09:46.285 --> 0:09:52.285 but growing up I thought it was actually quite radical 0:09:52.965 --> 0:09:55.445 to be a funny woman. I don't think that there 0:09:55.485 --> 0:09:58.805 are that many, especially when you're a teenager and young 0:09:58.845 --> 0:10:03.245 adult and your value is coming from, you know, your appearance, 0:10:03.405 --> 0:10:07.765 or the validation that you get from romantic partners all 0:10:07.845 --> 0:10:12.445 of that. I always looked at funny women with a 0:10:13.845 --> 0:10:19.005 type of awe and respect that I just thought, I 0:10:19.125 --> 0:10:20.205 think there is power in that. 0:10:20.445 --> 0:10:22.765 There is so much power in somebody laughing at you. 0:10:22.925 --> 0:10:26.765 Where did the funny come from? So in your family dynamic. 0:10:27.325 --> 0:10:30.205 Dad's got a pretty weird sense of humor, very very dry. 0:10:31.045 --> 0:10:33.605 Mum is also is also very funny. But I think 0:10:35.085 --> 0:10:36.845 my sister and I and then we've got twin brothers. 0:10:37.165 --> 0:10:41.805 Have always have always had a very specific sense of humor. 0:10:42.525 --> 0:10:45.125 But growing up, I remember watching TV. 0:10:45.405 --> 0:10:47.805 My mum watched every episode of the Panel, and I 0:10:47.845 --> 0:10:51.805 remember looking at you and being obsessed and thinking, she 0:10:52.245 --> 0:10:56.405 is so funny, and that is rare. 0:10:56.805 --> 0:10:57.725 That is really rare. 0:10:57.725 --> 0:10:59.845 And it was rare when I was growing up to 0:11:00.045 --> 0:11:02.605 see a really funny woman on television. 0:11:03.445 --> 0:11:06.285 It's funny because when I was looking, I started reading 0:11:06.325 --> 0:11:10.205 your book last night. This is the Bookations, by the way, 0:11:10.765 --> 0:11:13.165 because a baby in a book and a new life. 0:11:13.005 --> 0:11:14.805 And it's a lot. 0:11:14.965 --> 0:11:17.685 It's a lot. It's a lot, and you always like 0:11:17.765 --> 0:11:18.085 a lot. 0:11:19.645 --> 0:11:22.205 Fuck you girls are I'm going to say you're overachieved. 0:11:23.845 --> 0:11:25.205 I don't feel like that, but thank you. No. 0:11:25.765 --> 0:11:28.125 I think I think you probably never do, because you 0:11:28.765 --> 0:11:30.405 seem to be aware of what you haven't done. 0:11:31.565 --> 0:11:34.525 This is about what you have done. Okay, just take 0:11:34.565 --> 0:11:35.525 a little moment to that. 0:11:36.085 --> 0:11:38.405 But it's funny that you mentioned that because this is 0:11:38.445 --> 0:11:42.965 about a girl who gets canceled. And I was thinking 0:11:43.645 --> 0:11:45.765 and MEA and I have discussed this before because she's 0:11:45.805 --> 0:11:50.445 had her own uncomfortable ride at that Rodano, and I 0:11:50.605 --> 0:11:54.565 don't think I've been canceled, But the closest I came 0:11:54.805 --> 0:11:55.765 was doing the panel. 0:11:56.165 --> 0:11:57.125 What happened when I. 0:11:57.285 --> 0:12:00.125 Breastfeed I remember, I remember that moment. 0:12:00.125 --> 0:12:03.525 My first son, and that was before socials or whatever. 0:12:04.205 --> 0:12:12.765 But the insane level of feedback on that of a 0:12:12.925 --> 0:12:17.085 woman who'd gone back to work and just dropped in. 0:12:17.205 --> 0:12:19.005 I say, go back to work, but it was I 0:12:19.165 --> 0:12:21.405 dropped in at my friends. We'd done a show. I 0:12:21.445 --> 0:12:24.485 think Lewis was like three or four weeks old, and 0:12:25.405 --> 0:12:28.805 I had said to my husband, if Lewis makes a sound, 0:12:29.005 --> 0:12:30.085 just bring him down to me. 0:12:30.125 --> 0:12:31.965 An old feeder. That's all I knew how to do. 0:12:33.205 --> 0:12:35.485 I knew how to do with a baby anything. If 0:12:35.525 --> 0:12:37.685 he pulled a face or whatever, it was just titt 0:12:37.725 --> 0:12:40.605 in the mouth, that was. If he had hiccups or whatever, 0:12:40.845 --> 0:12:41.565 it was just feeding. 0:12:41.645 --> 0:12:42.005 Anyway. 0:12:42.645 --> 0:12:44.685 So that happened, and it was towards the end of 0:12:44.725 --> 0:12:48.405 the show look in an ad break, Peter brought Lewis down. 0:12:48.525 --> 0:12:49.165 I popped him on. 0:12:49.845 --> 0:12:53.485 I'd been with the guys the day earlier, I'd been 0:12:53.565 --> 0:12:54.765 feeding him at a meeting. 0:12:55.485 --> 0:12:56.165 They enjoyed it. 0:12:56.365 --> 0:12:59.885 Yeah, I don't care if people enjoy watching me breastet. 0:12:59.885 --> 0:13:02.125 You can, That's not what I'm doing it for I'm 0:13:02.165 --> 0:13:04.165 doing it for him anyway. 0:13:04.245 --> 0:13:08.325 But the cancelation thing is an extraordinary concept. So I 0:13:08.445 --> 0:13:10.845 know you did the show canceled, Yep, yep. 0:13:11.285 --> 0:13:13.565 What is your interest in that? 0:13:15.005 --> 0:13:18.565 I think from being at my MAA for a decade, 0:13:18.805 --> 0:13:23.525 I was in the unique experience of seeing those things 0:13:23.605 --> 0:13:27.445 that blow up in the media, whether it's someone said 0:13:27.485 --> 0:13:32.045 the wrong thing, they've published an article that had the 0:13:32.125 --> 0:13:35.725 wrong language, whether they've just done something that makes no 0:13:35.925 --> 0:13:39.685 sense to other people. I was in the unique position of, 0:13:41.365 --> 0:13:45.725 through the network of media, actually finding myself face to 0:13:45.805 --> 0:13:51.085 face with those people and realizing that they are not monsters. 0:13:51.605 --> 0:13:56.205 They are a mass of vulnerabilities, and you it is 0:13:56.405 --> 0:14:02.245 so easy to dehumanize somebody and to see them as 0:14:03.245 --> 0:14:06.405 almost an avatar. We all become avatars online. And I 0:14:06.445 --> 0:14:09.285 think the reason I was fascinated by it was because 0:14:09.925 --> 0:14:12.445 I have been on both sides of it. 0:14:13.165 --> 0:14:15.525 I've been on both all right, all right, so you've 0:14:16.485 --> 0:14:20.205 been leading the witch hunts, yeah, and like, not to a. 0:14:20.365 --> 0:14:27.445 Huge extent, but I realized that something would happen to 0:14:27.605 --> 0:14:29.845 me and I'd think, oh gosh, I used to be 0:14:29.925 --> 0:14:31.645 the person who would call people. 0:14:31.405 --> 0:14:35.765 Out for that, and I enjoy them getting called out yes. 0:14:36.085 --> 0:14:39.285 And I like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and feeling really 0:14:39.365 --> 0:14:42.085 morally superior because I am above that and I would 0:14:42.165 --> 0:14:46.925 never make such a mistake. And there was one particular person. 0:14:47.245 --> 0:14:49.485 When I first started writing on the internet, I really 0:14:49.565 --> 0:14:52.405 wanted to do kind of social commentary, and I think 0:14:52.485 --> 0:14:56.525 what women do. Women are so emotionally intelligent that I 0:14:56.605 --> 0:14:58.685 think what we want to do is we want to 0:14:58.885 --> 0:15:04.045 explore morality through the prism of people. And so there 0:15:04.205 --> 0:15:09.405 was one particular woman in Australian public life that I 0:15:09.525 --> 0:15:13.685 looked at and I wrote a lot about her and 0:15:13.845 --> 0:15:19.125 seeing her as almost a symbol of greed, money, exploitation, 0:15:19.285 --> 0:15:20.005 of all these things. 0:15:20.045 --> 0:15:22.125 And I wrote so much about her. 0:15:22.205 --> 0:15:24.725 Who was that, don't do you don't want to name them? 0:15:25.285 --> 0:15:28.165 Well, who i'd like to know. I'd like to know 0:15:28.285 --> 0:15:30.405 from you, if you think I can say it. It's 0:15:30.525 --> 0:15:31.205 Roxy Jasenko. 0:15:31.965 --> 0:15:33.125 Oh okay, all right. 0:15:33.205 --> 0:15:35.405 I don't know if she would mind. I don't know 0:15:35.445 --> 0:15:36.445 if she would mind. 0:15:36.285 --> 0:15:38.085 Because I think she wouldn't surprise her. 0:15:38.205 --> 0:15:39.525 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:15:40.445 --> 0:15:45.765 So I had written about Roxy Jasenko and then through 0:15:46.445 --> 0:15:49.245 work stuff, I met her and I found myself face 0:15:49.325 --> 0:15:51.565 to face with her and she was lovely. 0:15:52.525 --> 0:15:54.325 She was lovely, and I went, you know. 0:15:54.445 --> 0:15:58.645 What I don't and thank god she's such a busy woman. 0:15:58.965 --> 0:16:01.205 But she had no idea that I had written she 0:16:01.325 --> 0:16:04.245 had and this was years later, But I just thought, 0:16:05.245 --> 0:16:09.125 I don't actually know you. I don't I don't know you, 0:16:09.485 --> 0:16:13.845 and what I've done is dehumanize you. I have not 0:16:14.045 --> 0:16:18.285 offered you the dignity of slow, considered judgment. I've jumped 0:16:18.285 --> 0:16:20.765 on the tiny, surface level things I know about you, 0:16:21.645 --> 0:16:25.725 and I have had fun with that in quite a 0:16:26.725 --> 0:16:28.525 icky way that I don't feel comfortable. 0:16:28.565 --> 0:16:34.485 It's interesting because I mean, she was big on conspicuous consumption, yep, yep. 0:16:35.365 --> 0:16:41.885 But some people are allowed to the Kardashians carte blanche 0:16:42.045 --> 0:16:48.165 for you know, for any whatever, bucci, lambeau, blah blah 0:16:48.165 --> 0:16:52.805 blah blah blah blah blah blah. And yet in when 0:16:53.005 --> 0:16:57.885 certain other people manifest those traits or show off what 0:16:58.045 --> 0:17:04.885 they have, it elicits anger from us, competition, comparison, a sense, 0:17:05.045 --> 0:17:07.725 like you said, of this morality, Yeah. 0:17:07.845 --> 0:17:10.485 Like practicing your morality to someone. 0:17:10.245 --> 0:17:12.565 That is, as someone who has a psych degree. 0:17:13.965 --> 0:17:15.965 That is I think what happens. 0:17:16.205 --> 0:17:20.325 We really do want to prosecute moral questions, and I 0:17:20.365 --> 0:17:23.165 think that is so important that we do that, and 0:17:24.285 --> 0:17:27.725 I think there is something to be said about analyzing 0:17:28.365 --> 0:17:32.525 conspicuous consumption. However, I do not think the way to 0:17:32.645 --> 0:17:37.005 do that is through tearing apart an individual, because when 0:17:37.085 --> 0:17:41.565 you do that, you are placing that individual in contempt, 0:17:41.725 --> 0:17:45.445 you are not considering their complex humanity, and. 0:17:45.605 --> 0:17:49.805 It also takes away from the entire point. 0:17:49.885 --> 0:17:52.605 Like I do think the media, the way that our 0:17:52.685 --> 0:17:55.485 media has evolved, has made this really hard because. 0:17:55.245 --> 0:17:56.405 There are issues. 0:17:56.645 --> 0:17:59.645 You will find that most of the big issues in 0:17:59.685 --> 0:18:04.725 the zeitgeist we explore through individuals. So there will be 0:18:05.445 --> 0:18:09.205 a global conflict, there will be a you know, a 0:18:09.605 --> 0:18:13.325 question about feminism, and instead of having a philosophical conversation 0:18:13.405 --> 0:18:15.325 about it, we point to a person. We go, you 0:18:15.405 --> 0:18:17.565 are a symbol of this size, You are a symbol 0:18:17.605 --> 0:18:21.165 of this side, and we play that off. That is 0:18:21.645 --> 0:18:25.285 because no one's going to pay attention to the philosophical 0:18:25.565 --> 0:18:28.325 debate about it. We want the faith, we want the 0:18:28.725 --> 0:18:30.765 which hunt, we want the scapegoat. 0:18:31.045 --> 0:18:32.485 That's the only way we're going to pay attention. 0:18:32.645 --> 0:18:35.765 And also, I think once upon a time, like we've 0:18:35.925 --> 0:18:41.485 lost the institutions where we would probably analyze that no 0:18:41.565 --> 0:18:44.405 one goes to church. Once upon a time everyone went 0:18:44.485 --> 0:18:46.325 to church and then you were told this is good 0:18:46.405 --> 0:18:47.245 and this is bad. 0:18:47.845 --> 0:18:51.245 We don't have that. So now is social media the 0:18:51.325 --> 0:18:51.845 new church? 0:18:52.005 --> 0:18:52.205 Yep? 0:18:52.325 --> 0:18:54.485 Yeah, and it's not a broad church. 0:18:55.045 --> 0:18:55.085 No. 0:18:55.805 --> 0:19:00.805 If you deviate from what is considered acceptable, and those 0:19:00.925 --> 0:19:07.925 parameters shift all the time, yes, exactly. Do not go 0:19:08.165 --> 0:19:12.525 anywhere there's more insight, more honesty, and yes, more laughter 0:19:12.685 --> 0:19:14.725 with Clay Stevens after this short break. 0:19:17.685 --> 0:19:18.885 Did you ever get canceled? 0:19:19.845 --> 0:19:23.325 I have had a few experiences. I wouldn't call it 0:19:23.405 --> 0:19:28.165 the scale of being canceled. I've had tiny, tiny moments 0:19:28.485 --> 0:19:33.125 where I have been, say, called out online, and those 0:19:33.245 --> 0:19:38.285 moments are so sickening and all consuming that when it happened, 0:19:39.125 --> 0:19:43.325 I thought there's a book in this, and I really 0:19:43.445 --> 0:19:47.765 wanted to give myself the challenge of showing, rather than telling, 0:19:47.965 --> 0:19:50.485 how that feels. And so a couple of times, I 0:19:50.565 --> 0:19:53.565 remember when I was editor in chief, it was the 0:19:53.725 --> 0:19:55.685 most bizarre story. 0:19:55.925 --> 0:19:57.805 We ran an. 0:19:57.725 --> 0:20:01.485 Interview with somebody who called out somebody else, and then 0:20:01.565 --> 0:20:03.965 that somebody else got in touch with me and said, no, 0:20:04.445 --> 0:20:06.925 she's the one who's actually done this, and before I 0:20:06.965 --> 0:20:08.685 knew it, it was ten am, and I was on 0:20:08.845 --> 0:20:11.085 phone call to these two women who are like, I'm 0:20:11.165 --> 0:20:13.285 taking her to the police because she's trolling me, and 0:20:13.325 --> 0:20:15.405 the other one's like, I have a private detective, and 0:20:15.485 --> 0:20:17.165 I was like, I have a team of twenty people 0:20:17.205 --> 0:20:19.165 and I'm meant to be editing their work. I'm sorry, 0:20:19.245 --> 0:20:22.005 I don't have time for this. So I said, guys, 0:20:22.045 --> 0:20:24.165 I'm so sorry. We're just gonna take it down. I 0:20:25.005 --> 0:20:28.085 don't nobody here has the resources to work out what's happening. 0:20:28.485 --> 0:20:31.445 And one of those women, when on social media, posted 0:20:31.525 --> 0:20:36.125 my because my email signature had my phone number, so 0:20:36.325 --> 0:20:40.485 posted my photo photos of my family, photos of my 0:20:40.685 --> 0:20:44.565 dogster yeah, and phone number, and just like this woman 0:20:44.845 --> 0:20:47.205 is doing all these things to me and silencing me 0:20:47.325 --> 0:20:52.125 and burh rauh. And it is so frustrating because you 0:20:52.965 --> 0:20:55.645 have no pat and you just feel like saying one, 0:20:55.765 --> 0:20:58.125 that's not a very good way of showing me that 0:20:58.285 --> 0:21:02.365 you were the moral, righteous person in this direction, because 0:21:02.365 --> 0:21:04.925 that's a pretty rash thing to do. I don't have 0:21:05.005 --> 0:21:07.605 any control over that, Like I don't. I can't say 0:21:07.645 --> 0:21:10.445 there's no board, remember I can go to to say 0:21:10.525 --> 0:21:15.445 not this is unfair. I've also had what I have 0:21:15.525 --> 0:21:19.365 found fascinating is the situations where the brutality of real 0:21:19.485 --> 0:21:20.965 life collides. 0:21:20.605 --> 0:21:21.965 With something going on in the internet. 0:21:22.165 --> 0:21:25.525 Going on on the internet, So there have been moments 0:21:25.565 --> 0:21:31.085 where I'm being called out for something running, like running 0:21:31.125 --> 0:21:33.805 a story that used the wrong language. 0:21:33.805 --> 0:21:34.965 I remember there was a moment. 0:21:35.685 --> 0:21:37.245 I don't know if you remember this, and we've sort 0:21:37.285 --> 0:21:40.645 of gone past it now, but there was a lot 0:21:40.725 --> 0:21:44.085 of conversation about if you were going to do a 0:21:44.125 --> 0:21:47.645 story about women's health, whether you could say women or 0:21:47.685 --> 0:21:51.645 if you had to say people with vaginas or people. 0:21:51.485 --> 0:21:53.685 With volvers or uteruses or whatever. 0:21:54.285 --> 0:21:57.205 And we ran a story that I think actually erred 0:21:57.245 --> 0:22:01.125