Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: I'm comparing myself to a person who objectively, You're the
Speaker 2: hardest working person I've ever known. You're one of the
Speaker 2: smartest people I've ever known. You're so creative, Like, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, did that have to be my twin?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I cannot wait for today's guest.
Speaker 3: It is someone who has spent most of her adult
Speaker 3: life right here in the Mamma Mia office. It's Claire Stevens,
Speaker 3: who once was known as Claire from Mamma Mia, where
Speaker 3: she rose to become editor in chief, shaping some of
Speaker 3: the most viral stories and conversations in the Australian media landscape.
Speaker 1: And she's also a twin. You might have heard of
Speaker 1: her sister.
Speaker 3: It's an identity that has defined her since birth, but
Speaker 3: in recent years Claire has been on a journey to
Speaker 3: discover who she is when those labels are stripped away.
Speaker 3: Her career has taken her from the newsroom to screenwriting
Speaker 3: on the hit series Strife, to creating a podcast about
Speaker 3: public pylons, and now to publishing.
Speaker 1: Her first novel.
Speaker 3: It's really good, the worst thing I've ever done, A sharp,
Speaker 3: compassionate look at cancel culture and the way the Internet
Speaker 3: can turn on anyone at any time.
Speaker 1: Claire has also.
Speaker 3: Lived through her own defining moments, from a traumatic birth
Speaker 3: to navigating the brutality of online scrutiny, and she has
Speaker 3: thought deeply about the invisible cost of how we treat
Speaker 3: women online. This is truly a conversation about identity and
Speaker 3: what happens when the Internet forgets is a human being
Speaker 3: on the other side of the screen.
Speaker 1: Stevens, Welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me now.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know about this organization.
Speaker 4: Haven't heard much.
Speaker 1: Mumma maya.
Speaker 3: Yeah interesting, although, as Siri pronounces it on my phone, mammaemia.
Speaker 4: Oh no, that's so upsetting.
Speaker 1: And it's a platform for women and girls, Okay.
Speaker 4: Is it related to the ab song or.
Speaker 3: Oh well, I don't know what the genesis of it.
Speaker 2: Was, ok Because often when I used to tell people
Speaker 2: I worked from Mayo.
Speaker 4: Go oh my god, I love the musical.
Speaker 2: The Aba Musical, And I'm like, honestly, some days I'd
Speaker 2: love to work for the Aba Musical.
Speaker 3: Not if it's the part where Piterce Brosnan is singing,
Speaker 3: oh no, no, no, that was very bad.
Speaker 4: Every every Meryl Street moment, all.
Speaker 3: Of those exactly, we take any merrill. Now listen, this
Speaker 3: is your exit interview.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, no, oh no. So when did you leave,
Speaker 1: Mamma Mia.
Speaker 4: I left beginning of this year.
Speaker 1: It was sort of recently.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I sort of wrapped up end of last year, right,
Speaker 2: and then wasn't coming back in the new year. So
Speaker 2: it's mean I'm trying to remind myself sometimes a panic,
Speaker 2: I'm like.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I've been gone for that long and
Speaker 4: have I done all the things that I wanted to do?
Speaker 4: And then I think, hold on, it hasn't actually been
Speaker 4: that long.
Speaker 3: No, that's not long. And also because you were here
Speaker 3: for ten years years. Yeah, you came as after a
Speaker 3: phone call you got from Maya. Yeah that you thought
Speaker 3: was a prank.
Speaker 2: Yes, I got an email, an email from Maa, and
Speaker 2: I thought, this is so mean that somebody would pretend
Speaker 2: to be me a freedman. Because Jesse and I were
Speaker 2: my sister and I were writing a blog together that
Speaker 2: we loved and writing for a couple of very fringe publications,
Speaker 2: and then this email came from someone claiming to be
Speaker 2: Maya Friedman saying that they loved our writing.
Speaker 1: And wanted to that stage.
Speaker 3: You were doing the recaps of The Biggest Loser, which
Speaker 3: is that puts it in a time.
Speaker 4: It really does, it really does.
Speaker 2: And I was doing at the time, I was doing
Speaker 2: a Masters of research in eating disorders and obesity, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to get these kind of semi academic ideas
Speaker 2: about the way we talk about body shape and health
Speaker 2: and all of that. I wanted to put them in
Speaker 2: the mainstream and communicate them. So Jess and I had
Speaker 2: always watched The Biggest Loser for reasons we can't explain.
Speaker 4: We all did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, by the way, well I think we could explain it.
Speaker 3: I think we probably could. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fascinating.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And so we were recapping that, and yeah, Maya reached out,
Speaker 2: and from there I was so excited that somebody liked
Speaker 2: our writing.
Speaker 3: And also because then you were I mean you were
Speaker 3: born a unit. Yeah, the pair of you, you and Jesse,
Speaker 3: and then you came to Mauma Maya as a unit.
Speaker 3: Now that's what was Jesse's studying when you was doing
Speaker 3: your psyche.
Speaker 2: Jesse had finished her masters of research the year before
Speaker 2: she was She has a master's in history, history and
Speaker 2: gender studies, so she had finished.
Speaker 1: She really wanted to be unemployed.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, I want to study psychology, but
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a psychologist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. What do I want to do?
Speaker 4: A really great idea for employment.
Speaker 2: And so both of us in that year had sort
Speaker 2: of realized that we wanted to write, and we were
Speaker 2: looking at the media landscape thinking, you know, even looking
Speaker 2: at people who were social commentators almost and thinking how
Speaker 2: do you get to do that?
Speaker 1: And so was that at that time? What were you
Speaker 1: looking at? What was around?
Speaker 4: Remember, we were obsessed with Mamaya, Rosie Water.
Speaker 1: And the Bachelors and weirdly, who do you?
Speaker 2: A few months before Mia reached out, my cousin gifted
Speaker 2: us tickets to go and see Rosie's book launch. In
Speaker 2: conversation with Mia and so Jess and I sat in
Speaker 2: this audience and it was one of those moments where
Speaker 2: you go, oh God, I'd love to be part of
Speaker 2: this organization.
Speaker 4: I'd love to be Rosie Wonder, I'd love to do
Speaker 4: all these things.
Speaker 2: And then you go, but look around, probably all of
Speaker 2: these women would love that, and so it's not going
Speaker 2: to happen. And then so when Mia reached out, we
Speaker 2: were so surprised. But interestingly, on that first meeting, she
Speaker 2: said she was almost She said, oh, I thought that
Speaker 2: maybe you wouldn't maybe you're kind of too edgy for Mamya,
Speaker 2: Like you wouldn't think Mamya was cool.
Speaker 4: And we're like, ah, We're like, no, we love it. Well.
Speaker 1: I think you know that's been a hallmark of your
Speaker 1: work is very.
Speaker 3: Accessible, yep, yep, yeah, but also incorporating like some of
Speaker 3: these ideas for lutin ideas at university yea hopefully, which
Speaker 3: is a very difficult thing to do, to make the
Speaker 3: esoteric relatable and clear and to refine it so that
Speaker 3: people go, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I hope.
Speaker 2: I hope that that's what both Jess and I are
Speaker 2: able to do, because when you're at UNI, you realize
Speaker 2: that you work on.
Speaker 4: Something for so long and.
Speaker 2: It in some cases will only be read by so
Speaker 2: few people, and you think there's a lot of research
Speaker 2: I did for my novel, like a lot of academic research,
Speaker 2: and I thought it's so interesting because this academic research
Speaker 2: is so clever and complex, and I wish everyone could
Speaker 2: read it, but it's behind a paywall. It is the
Speaker 2: type of language that not everybody can understand.
Speaker 1: It involves reading, exactly.
Speaker 2: It involves reading and understanding, you know, the all the
Speaker 2: layers of research, and it involves a whole lot of
Speaker 2: stuff that not everybody can access. So I think that
Speaker 2: there is something really important about getting those ideas and
Speaker 2: putting them in a palatable way that people can.
Speaker 1: Unders And also, what you and Jesse did together was
Speaker 1: use humor.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is.
Speaker 3: Such a gateway and it's it's actually I'm often amused
Speaker 3: by comedian friends who then go down a kind of
Speaker 3: more strident or political pathway because I think so few
Speaker 3: people have the gift of humor.
Speaker 4: Yep, ye, yeah.
Speaker 3: There's so many people that can tub thump and whatever,
Speaker 3: and that's important, but so few people have the gift
Speaker 3: of being able to parlay a thought through humor. And
Speaker 3: you two both had that.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you.
Speaker 3: And so at what point did you realize when you
Speaker 3: came in to Mum and Mia And to me, it
Speaker 3: kind of feels that you've always been here, Yeah, what
Speaker 3: point did you?
Speaker 1: Oh, way this is working?
Speaker 2: I think it was a couple of years in like
Speaker 2: we both of us when we started had a moment
Speaker 2: of thinking, oh wow, I feel like this was where
Speaker 2: I was always meant to be.
Speaker 4: Like we both, I'll speak myself.
Speaker 2: I love ideas and building concepts and challenging each other
Speaker 2: and all of that, and the being around women who
Speaker 2: just were so clever and so creative I found really exciting.
Speaker 2: The other thing And I don't know if you feel this,
Speaker 2: but growing up I thought it was actually quite radical
Speaker 2: to be a funny woman. I don't think that there
Speaker 2: are that many, especially when you're a teenager and young
Speaker 2: adult and your value is coming from, you know, your appearance,
Speaker 2: or the validation that you get from romantic partners all
Speaker 2: of that. I always looked at funny women with a
Speaker 2: type of awe and respect that I just thought, I
Speaker 2: think there is power in that.
Speaker 4: There is so much power in somebody laughing at you.
Speaker 1: Where did the funny come from? So in your family dynamic.
Speaker 2: Dad's got a pretty weird sense of humor, very very dry.
Speaker 2: Mum is also is also very funny. But I think
Speaker 2: my sister and I and then we've got twin brothers.
Speaker 2: Have always have always had a very specific sense of humor.
Speaker 4: But growing up, I remember watching TV.
Speaker 2: My mum watched every episode of the Panel, and I
Speaker 2: remember looking at you and being obsessed and thinking, she
Speaker 2: is so funny, and that is rare.
Speaker 4: That is really rare.
Speaker 2: And it was rare when I was growing up to
Speaker 2: see a really funny woman on television.
Speaker 3: It's funny because when I was looking, I started reading
Speaker 3: your book last night. This is the Bookations, by the way,
Speaker 3: because a baby in a book and a new life.
Speaker 1: And it's a lot.
Speaker 4: It's a lot. It's a lot, and you always like
Speaker 4: a lot.
Speaker 1: Fuck you girls are I'm going to say you're overachieved.
Speaker 4: I don't feel like that, but thank you. No.
Speaker 3: I think I think you probably never do, because you
Speaker 3: seem to be aware of what you haven't done.
Speaker 1: This is about what you have done. Okay, just take
Speaker 1: a little moment to that.
Speaker 3: But it's funny that you mentioned that because this is
Speaker 3: about a girl who gets canceled. And I was thinking
Speaker 3: and MEA and I have discussed this before because she's
Speaker 3: had her own uncomfortable ride at that Rodano, and I
Speaker 3: don't think I've been canceled, But the closest I came
Speaker 3: was doing the panel.
Speaker 1: What happened when I.
Speaker 4: Breastfeed I remember, I remember that moment.
Speaker 1: My first son, and that was before socials or whatever.
Speaker 3: But the insane level of feedback on that of a
Speaker 3: woman who'd gone back to work and just dropped in.
Speaker 3: I say, go back to work, but it was I
Speaker 3: dropped in at my friends. We'd done a show. I
Speaker 3: think Lewis was like three or four weeks old, and
Speaker 3: I had said to my husband, if Lewis makes a sound,
Speaker 3: just bring him down to me.
Speaker 1: An old feeder. That's all I knew how to do.
Speaker 3: I knew how to do with a baby anything. If
Speaker 3: he pulled a face or whatever, it was just titt
Speaker 3: in the mouth, that was. If he had hiccups or whatever,
Speaker 3: it was just feeding.
Speaker 1: Anyway.
Speaker 3: So that happened, and it was towards the end of
Speaker 3: the show look in an ad break, Peter brought Lewis down.
Speaker 1: I popped him on.
Speaker 3: I'd been with the guys the day earlier, I'd been
Speaker 3: feeding him at a meeting.
Speaker 1: They enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care if people enjoy watching me breastet.
Speaker 1: You can, That's not what I'm doing it for I'm
Speaker 1: doing it for him anyway.
Speaker 3: But the cancelation thing is an extraordinary concept. So I
Speaker 3: know you did the show canceled, Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: What is your interest in that?
Speaker 2: I think from being at my MAA for a decade,
Speaker 2: I was in the unique experience of seeing those things
Speaker 2: that blow up in the media, whether it's someone said
Speaker 2: the wrong thing, they've published an article that had the
Speaker 2: wrong language, whether they've just done something that makes no
Speaker 2: sense to other people. I was in the unique position of,
Speaker 2: through the network of media, actually finding myself face to
Speaker 2: face with those people and realizing that they are not monsters.
Speaker 2: They are a mass of vulnerabilities, and you it is
Speaker 2: so easy to dehumanize somebody and to see them as
Speaker 2: almost an avatar. We all become avatars online. And I
Speaker 2: think the reason I was fascinated by it was because
Speaker 2: I have been on both sides of it.
Speaker 3: I've been on both all right, all right, so you've
Speaker 3: been leading the witch hunts, yeah, and like, not to a.
Speaker 2: Huge extent, but I realized that something would happen to
Speaker 2: me and I'd think, oh gosh, I used to be
Speaker 2: the person who would call people.
Speaker 1: Out for that, and I enjoy them getting called out yes.
Speaker 4: And I like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and feeling really
Speaker 4: morally superior because I am above that and I would
Speaker 4: never make such a mistake. And there was one particular person.
Speaker 2: When I first started writing on the internet, I really
Speaker 2: wanted to do kind of social commentary, and I think
Speaker 2: what women do. Women are so emotionally intelligent that I
Speaker 2: think what we want to do is we want to
Speaker 2: explore morality through the prism of people. And so there
Speaker 2: was one particular woman in Australian public life that I
Speaker 2: looked at and I wrote a lot about her and
Speaker 2: seeing her as almost a symbol of greed, money, exploitation,
Speaker 2: of all these things.
Speaker 4: And I wrote so much about her.
Speaker 1: Who was that, don't do you don't want to name them?
Speaker 4: Well, who i'd like to know. I'd like to know
Speaker 4: from you, if you think I can say it. It's
Speaker 4: Roxy Jasenko.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right.
Speaker 4: I don't know if she would mind. I don't know
Speaker 4: if she would mind.
Speaker 1: Because I think she wouldn't surprise her.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I had written about Roxy Jasenko and then through
Speaker 2: work stuff, I met her and I found myself face
Speaker 2: to face with her and she was lovely.
Speaker 4: She was lovely, and I went, you know.
Speaker 2: What I don't and thank god she's such a busy woman.
Speaker 2: But she had no idea that I had written she
Speaker 2: had and this was years later, But I just thought,
Speaker 2: I don't actually know you. I don't I don't know you,
Speaker 2: and what I've done is dehumanize you. I have not
Speaker 2: offered you the dignity of slow, considered judgment. I've jumped
Speaker 2: on the tiny, surface level things I know about you,
Speaker 2: and I have had fun with that in quite a
Speaker 2: icky way that I don't feel comfortable.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I mean, she was big on conspicuous consumption, yep, yep.
Speaker 3: But some people are allowed to the Kardashians carte blanche
Speaker 3: for you know, for any whatever, bucci, lambeau, blah blah
Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah blah blah. And yet in when
Speaker 3: certain other people manifest those traits or show off what
Speaker 3: they have, it elicits anger from us, competition, comparison, a sense,
Speaker 3: like you said, of this morality, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Like practicing your morality to someone.
Speaker 1: That is, as someone who has a psych degree.
Speaker 4: That is I think what happens.
Speaker 2: We really do want to prosecute moral questions, and I
Speaker 2: think that is so important that we do that, and
Speaker 2: I think there is something to be said about analyzing
Speaker 2: conspicuous consumption. However, I do not think the way to
Speaker 2: do that is through tearing apart an individual, because when
Speaker 2: you do that, you are placing that individual in contempt,
Speaker 2: you are not considering their complex humanity, and.
Speaker 4: It also takes away from the entire point.
Speaker 2: Like I do think the media, the way that our
Speaker 2: media has evolved, has made this really hard because.
Speaker 4: There are issues.
Speaker 2: You will find that most of the big issues in
Speaker 2: the zeitgeist we explore through individuals. So there will be
Speaker 2: a global conflict, there will be a you know, a
Speaker 2: question about feminism, and instead of having a philosophical conversation
Speaker 2: about it, we point to a person. We go, you
Speaker 2: are a symbol of this size, You are a symbol
Speaker 2: of this side, and we play that off. That is
Speaker 2: because no one's going to pay attention to the philosophical
Speaker 2: debate about it. We want the faith, we want the
Speaker 2: which hunt, we want the scapegoat.
Speaker 4: That's the only way we're going to pay attention.
Speaker 3: And also, I think once upon a time, like we've
Speaker 3: lost the institutions where we would probably analyze that no
Speaker 3: one goes to church. Once upon a time everyone went
Speaker 3: to church and then you were told this is good
Speaker 3: and this is bad.
Speaker 1: We don't have that. So now is social media the
Speaker 1: new church?
Speaker 4: Yep?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not a broad church.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: If you deviate from what is considered acceptable, and those
Speaker 3: parameters shift all the time, yes, exactly. Do not go
Speaker 3: anywhere there's more insight, more honesty, and yes, more laughter
Speaker 3: with Clay Stevens after this short break.
Speaker 1: Did you ever get canceled?
Speaker 2: I have had a few experiences. I wouldn't call it
Speaker 2: the scale of being canceled. I've had tiny, tiny moments
Speaker 2: where I have been, say, called out online, and those
Speaker 2: moments are so sickening and all consuming that when it happened,
Speaker 2: I thought there's a book in this, and I really
Speaker 2: wanted to give myself the challenge of showing, rather than telling,
Speaker 2: how that feels. And so a couple of times, I
Speaker 2: remember when I was editor in chief, it was the
Speaker 2: most bizarre story.
Speaker 4: We ran an.
Speaker 2: Interview with somebody who called out somebody else, and then
Speaker 2: that somebody else got in touch with me and said, no,
Speaker 2: she's the one who's actually done this, and before I
Speaker 2: knew it, it was ten am, and I was on
Speaker 2: phone call to these two women who are like, I'm
Speaker 2: taking her to the police because she's trolling me, and
Speaker 2: the other one's like, I have a private detective, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I have a team of twenty people
Speaker 2: and I'm meant to be editing their work. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I don't have time for this. So I said, guys,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. We're just gonna take it down. I
Speaker 2: don't nobody here has the resources to work out what's happening.
Speaker 2: And one of those women, when on social media, posted
Speaker 2: my because my email signature had my phone number, so
Speaker 2: posted my photo photos of my family, photos of my
Speaker 2: dogster yeah, and phone number, and just like this woman
Speaker 2: is doing all these things to me and silencing me
Speaker 2: and burh rauh. And it is so frustrating because you
Speaker 2: have no pat and you just feel like saying one,
Speaker 2: that's not a very good way of showing me that
Speaker 2: you were the moral, righteous person in this direction, because
Speaker 2: that's a pretty rash thing to do. I don't have
Speaker 2: any control over that, Like I don't. I can't say
Speaker 2: there's no board, remember I can go to to say
Speaker 2: not this is unfair. I've also had what I have
Speaker 2: found fascinating is the situations where the brutality of real
Speaker 2: life collides.
Speaker 4: With something going on in the internet.
Speaker 2: Going on on the internet, So there have been moments
Speaker 2: where I'm being called out for something running, like running
Speaker 2: a story that used the wrong language.
Speaker 4: I remember there was a moment.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this, and we've sort
Speaker 2: of gone past it now, but there was a lot
Speaker 2: of conversation about if you were going to do a
Speaker 2: story about women's health, whether you could say women or
Speaker 2: if you had to say people with vaginas or people.
Speaker 4: With volvers or uteruses or whatever.
Speaker 2: And we ran a story that I think actually erred
Speaker 2: on the side of inclusivity and said people with vaginas
Speaker 2: or something like that, and people were furious and saying, no,
Speaker 2: this is invalidating women's experiences and all this, and I
Speaker 2: was sort of trying to navigate that, and at the
Speaker 2: same time, someone really close to me was in hospital,
Speaker 2: and so I was in hospital looking around. You know,
Speaker 2: the stakes of life are never higher than when somebody
Speaker 2: you know is really sick and you just want to
Speaker 2: scream me your phone.
Speaker 4: This is ridiculous. This is absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 3: And yet you are also a quog in the machine
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, and like AI.
Speaker 1: The machine is turning on you.
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, as it will all of us. Yes, yes,
Speaker 4: and so and so.
Speaker 2: I really wanted to with the book basically hold those
Speaker 2: two things at once. The absurdity of what we're arguing
Speaker 2: on the internet, and it's a zero sum game. And
Speaker 2: I don't think we're actually doing anything. I don't think
Speaker 2: we're kind of reaching consensus in the way that we
Speaker 2: think we are. I don't think we're changing people's minds
Speaker 2: in the way that I wish we were. I think
Speaker 2: the discourse online is increasingly really really toxic and unhelpful.
Speaker 4: And then contrasting that with what real life is.
Speaker 2: And the other thing about real life that I would
Speaker 2: think in these moments is you forgive people. In real life,
Speaker 2: when a friend is shitty, you forgive them, and you
Speaker 2: have a blueprint for how to move forward.
Speaker 4: We do not have that online.
Speaker 2: If somebody stuffs up online, the glee in always holding
Speaker 2: that person to the worst thing they ever did.
Speaker 4: There is no.
Speaker 2: Way forward where we go, Okay, you know what, We've
Speaker 2: made our point. I think we've been heard. That person
Speaker 2: has apologized, So let's move on.
Speaker 4: That doesn't it's not a thing.
Speaker 1: No, that's not a thing.
Speaker 3: Although the grace of it is, if there's anything, is
Speaker 3: that things move on so cool exactly.
Speaker 1: That if you can just keep your head down, it'll
Speaker 1: totally blow over.
Speaker 3: Like people yeah, constantly, like remember things that you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: what seems so significant at the time is now like, yeah,
Speaker 3: did that happen. There's always something in the room that goes, oh,
Speaker 3: that's right, I've got about that. At the time, it
Speaker 3: seemed monumintalk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to the individual at the center of it,
Speaker 2: it feels like everyone's talking about it, everyone's watching, and
Speaker 2: it's pretty much never the case, like if you go out.
Speaker 4: Into the real world, no one knows what the hell
Speaker 4: you're talking now, But for you, it feels like that.
Speaker 2: And the scary thing is for people who've had these experiences,
Speaker 2: and I've for the book, I interviewed many, many media
Speaker 2: figures who have had these experiences, and they will say
Speaker 2: the scary thing is that months, years after they've been canceled,
Speaker 2: piled on, whatever you want to call it, they will
Speaker 2: still be on their way to an event and get
Speaker 2: a call saying I'm sorry, we've had a complaint from oh,
Speaker 2: we can't have. And even if the person organizing the
Speaker 2: event disagrees with the complaint thinks that it's ridiculous, there
Speaker 2: is this fear of things blowing up, and of like,
Speaker 2: if you're running an event, you want things to go smoothly.
Speaker 2: So for those people, it does follow them in really
Speaker 2: subtle ways, and even if it doesn't. I think it's
Speaker 2: the fear that if these people will.
Speaker 3: Come back of us, and that is the pac mentality
Speaker 3: of it, exactly that the people in the herd as well,
Speaker 3: are like, oh, I better join the rest in you know,
Speaker 3: tearing down the wilderbeast.
Speaker 1: Yes, because otherwise they're coming for me.
Speaker 2: And this is part of our Yeah, this is kind
Speaker 2: of how we prosecute morality.
Speaker 4: And if you say, hey, I don't know if all the.
Speaker 2: Name calling and the shaming and the doxing and the
Speaker 2: really dehumanizing this person and not allowing them any dignity,
Speaker 2: I don't know. If this is how we go about this,
Speaker 2: then you're complicit, you know, and then you're then you're
Speaker 2: part of the problem. But I think we really need
Speaker 2: to look at what we're doing. Your very good friend
Speaker 2: who I admire from a fart. Walid Ali writes about
Speaker 2: this so brilliantly. He wrote a quarterly essay called with
Speaker 2: Scott Stevens called Uncivil Wars How contempt is corroding Democracy,
Speaker 2: and both of them basically argued that the level of
Speaker 2: discourse has become so.
Speaker 4: So dysfunctional that we are not going to see the
Speaker 4: progress that we used to.
Speaker 3: But you know what Walid does as well, he's not
Speaker 3: on socials because he's the most evolved person.
Speaker 1: Well, well, there you go. But then are you evolved
Speaker 1: if you're not evolving with the world?
Speaker 3: I know, I know, yeah, yeah, what are you if
Speaker 3: you're the last bastion of someone who doesn't know that
Speaker 3: Katie Perry went to.
Speaker 1: The y, which is so important.
Speaker 4: It's so important to know that.
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, you very casually tossed in when I
Speaker 3: became editor in chief. Oh yes, yes, yeah mum and
Speaker 3: maya Yeah. So what was the trajectory? So you and
Speaker 3: Jesse came here, you're doing your bits of content? At
Speaker 3: what point did you become editor in chief or was
Speaker 3: there a career tragedy?
Speaker 2: Yes, So we were interns who wouldn't leave. Literally, we
Speaker 2: just wouldn't leave. We just kept turning up and then
Speaker 2: they had an editorial assistant job, and I think maybe
Speaker 2: I did that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did that. Jesse got a she was editing video.
Speaker 2: She has a very funny story about having to film
Speaker 2: something with me or and completely stuffing it up. Just
Speaker 2: no one's ever been as bad it video as Jeffy Stevens.
Speaker 2: But we kind of eventually got into junior editorial role.
Speaker 2: So I was editorial assistant for a few years. Then
Speaker 2: I was a content producer, which is like a writer.
Speaker 2: Then I was a weekend editor for a couple of years,
Speaker 2: and then the editor in chief position came up, and
Speaker 2: that was really exciting to get that. Like I don't
Speaker 2: think I ever imagined that I would have that opportunity,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know if I would be you know,
Speaker 2: like it's such a chat to manage people and to
Speaker 2: see the editorial direction. But I did realize, and I
Speaker 2: think other people around me picked up. I love to
Speaker 2: actually love to make decisions and I love to be
Speaker 2: in control, and I don't I'm not.
Speaker 4: I'm quite brave when it comes to decision making, like
Speaker 4: quite I stand by my convinion.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And people kind of said, hold on that's
Speaker 2: actually that's something that is needed in that role.
Speaker 4: So I loved those few years.
Speaker 2: Ab I was editor in chief for maybe three years,
Speaker 2: and it was during COVID when so for a chunk
Speaker 2: of it everybody was working remotely, which was interesting managing
Speaker 2: people totally remotely. But I loved that and the single
Speaker 2: thing or no, So I've always not always, I've never.
Speaker 1: Actually it's true, you weren't born single.
Speaker 3: You weren't.
Speaker 4: And then I met my partner at seventeen, so you
Speaker 4: were born when you were seventeen, so we've been together forever.
Speaker 3: So we were together then Wow, and then Jesse. So
Speaker 3: you're working side by side and I love it. I
Speaker 3: think the first time that I ever met you too.
Speaker 3: And it's obviously standard bit of stick that you two have,
Speaker 3: which is that she's looks like you, but she's bigger
Speaker 3: than you. She took all the nutrients in the wood.
Speaker 3: And then when you left Mamma Mia, a part.
Speaker 1: Of me thought, did she take all the nutrientts at
Speaker 1: Mamma May as well? Would you like clear leaving because.
Speaker 3: She starts she starts going out with the bosses, So yeah,
Speaker 3: how was that you in that moment when you realize
Speaker 3: that there was like a flutation that was going on
Speaker 3: to the next level.
Speaker 2: I have been very open about the fact that I
Speaker 2: was against it from the start, Jesse.
Speaker 1: For hr reasons or personal reasons.
Speaker 2: So Jesse for yes, and Jesse was making tip for
Speaker 2: a long time. She had made terrible romantic decisions and
Speaker 2: that I didn't understand. And in hindsight, that's a bit
Speaker 2: unfair because I was very lucky to have met my partner,
Speaker 2: so I didn't go through all the early twenties dating,
Speaker 2: getting rejected, feeling like you've got bullet holes all over you,
Speaker 2: and having to go into a date.
Speaker 4: So we're working at Maya.
Speaker 2: I actually trained Luca, which was really funny because training
Speaker 2: the boss's son is terrifying.
Speaker 4: Because I was like, what if I actually don't know
Speaker 4: what I'm doing?
Speaker 1: And I remember, what if he's no good? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's going to deliver that shit sound exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember just being so skeptic to date. He's like,
Speaker 4: you were very good at training me, thank you.
Speaker 2: But so I trained him and then he and Jessie
Speaker 2: were working just happened to be working in the same
Speaker 2: team together and they became very very good friends and
Speaker 2: she sort of would tell me that there were rumors
Speaker 2: that Luke had a crush on her, and I was like, oh, nice,
Speaker 2: but like that's irrelevant, because yeah, exactly, I'm like lovely.
Speaker 2: And there was an age gap and I just was like,
Speaker 2: don't go there, and I very much said age gap.
Speaker 2: So I think the age gap is six seven years
Speaker 2: something like that, and so I just said, I was like,
Speaker 2: absolutely not. And I said, you know, we've worked so
Speaker 2: hard to like both our parents teachers, we had never
Speaker 2: been into any kind of office before we walked into moment.
Speaker 2: Like we went from doing some work atmum and dad's
Speaker 2: schools to working at university and so it was our
Speaker 2: first time being in an office. And I kind of
Speaker 2: was saying to Jess, well, I don't want anyone to
Speaker 2: think that the only reason you're here or the only
Speaker 2: reason I'm here is because of some connection, Like that's
Speaker 2: not it. And so I was very adamant. And then
Speaker 2: the more I got to know him, I was like.
Speaker 4: Ah, he's a really good person. This is so annoying,
Speaker 4: and he is. He's a bloody good person, and he's
Speaker 4: body smart and creative and him and Jesse are just
Speaker 4: their brains are just alive together. So eventually I was like, well,
Speaker 4: she kind of went ahead and did it anywhere, and
Speaker 4: then I said, okay, fine, And then.
Speaker 1: You had babies similarly.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think she had Luna first. Then ye had Matilda.
Speaker 4: About six months later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, which has been incredible to do all
Speaker 2: of that together. Mostly, like I keep thinking about it, financially,
Speaker 2: I just got everything down to me, like every like
Speaker 2: she had a snoop, I got.
Speaker 4: A snoop, she had all the all the I'm like,
Speaker 4: I just had a baby for free.
Speaker 1: Did she give you her obstitution?
Speaker 2: No, when we're a different obstetrition, because I was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, we should probably diverge somewhere. But having
Speaker 2: those experiences together has been such a gift, such a gift.
Speaker 4: I don't know what I do.
Speaker 3: Well, because you've also, as we just said, you've you
Speaker 3: came into the world together. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've always had each other.
Speaker 3: The twin thing is like to you obviously it's not
Speaker 3: not a mystery, Yeah, but it is an extraordinary thing
Speaker 3: to witness from the outside because you always have each other.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And it occurs to me every now and
Speaker 2: then that probably one of the scariest things about life
Speaker 2: is that you enter.
Speaker 4: The world alone, and you enter every situation alone.
Speaker 2: And Jess and I got to walk into primary school
Speaker 2: together and walk into high school together, and yeah, that bond.
Speaker 2: It's something I feel incredibly lucky to have and gives
Speaker 2: I think gives a lot of meaning to life to
Speaker 2: have a witness and to have someone you're constantly in
Speaker 2: conversation with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of people feel
Speaker 4: like that about there.
Speaker 3: Do you have to explain yourself to each other ever?
Speaker 3: Or is there an innate no understanding?
Speaker 2: There's just like an emotional slash language shortcut where we
Speaker 2: are always tapped in emotionally to where the other person is.
Speaker 2: And I think also because through virtue of working at
Speaker 2: the same place and having similar interests, we're kind of
Speaker 2: very much on the same path in what we're interested
Speaker 2: in and what kind of.
Speaker 3: Little The reason you worked at the same place is
Speaker 3: because you had that yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's exact.
Speaker 3: Separate the strand no, and yet you decided to separate
Speaker 3: the strand yes.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Part of it was I wanted to take myself out
Speaker 2: of the context of the comparison to Jesse being so easy,
Speaker 2: Like I was aware that I found that hard and
Speaker 2: I found that.
Speaker 1: What do you mean? I don't understand the comparison.
Speaker 2: So our whole lives, we've been compared, like at school
Speaker 2: and all of that little you know, little comments about
Speaker 2: who's smarter and who's more attractive, and who's more creative
Speaker 2: and who's better at this and that and all that,
Speaker 2: And I was becoming.
Speaker 1: Well, how does that lead you? Look? By the way,
Speaker 1: how do how does the lead you look?
Speaker 4: It changes, it changes.
Speaker 2: We were joking the other day about how when we're
Speaker 2: at UNI, a tutor said to us. He ran into
Speaker 2: us and he was like, ah, I've marked your essays.
Speaker 2: One of you can write and one of you can't. Anyway,
Speaker 2: and then he walked away and write. But then we
Speaker 2: got the marks back and I was the one who
Speaker 2: could write, which we like that out because we're like,
Speaker 2: Jesse can write.
Speaker 4: She's got two best selling books. I think she can write.
Speaker 2: But there was always kind of that comparison, and I think,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm more sensitive. Jesse's always been
Speaker 2: a bit more resilient to it. She got the nutrients, Yeah,
Speaker 2: she got the nutrients, and so I've got all the
Speaker 2: bloody you know. I my psychologists say, apparently, when you're
Speaker 2: because I was very very little when I was born,
Speaker 2: you do have vulnerabilities to certain mental health.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh okay, oh good to know she doesn't have
Speaker 3: she doesn't.
Speaker 4: Have that like certain things. But I'm like, I feel
Speaker 4: like maybe you're more resilient to that because you got
Speaker 4: more nutrients. But anyway, that's my theory.
Speaker 3: But yeah, what was the moment at which you went like,
Speaker 3: was there a moment away gradual?
Speaker 4: I think it was a gradual.
Speaker 2: I think I would sometimes look at what Jesse was
Speaker 2: doing and think, oh, I want to be doing that,
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to be in that position, like
Speaker 2: it felt a bit icky.
Speaker 3: And then for her, conversely, you can sometimes get it.
Speaker 3: And this is not even a twin thing. This is
Speaker 3: just like a close friend you might be in the
Speaker 3: same industry or whatever. You don't want her to be
Speaker 3: in the position where she's having to be almost apologetic
Speaker 3: for her success because it's somehow.
Speaker 2: Exactly or when something amazing happens for her, the fact
Speaker 2: that it's a bittersweet because she's aware that you know
Speaker 2: that I might be seeing that from my own perspective,
Speaker 2: like I didn't. I was like, yuck, this just has
Speaker 2: to be that. You know, you do your own thing
Speaker 2: and you are brilliant, and I've got to kind of
Speaker 2: carve my own path. And it's sort of I use
Speaker 2: the analogy of like in a swimming race, if you're
Speaker 2: always checking over your shoulder to see how the person
Speaker 2: next to you is going, you're going to slow down.
Speaker 2: And I thought, I just need to be in my
Speaker 2: own lane and stop that. And because it's just the
Speaker 2: environment that if you're going to work with somebody every day,
Speaker 2: you are aware of all the things they're doing and compare.
Speaker 1: And also you're both amazing. So it's true.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's fine if the person's you know, five
Speaker 3: body links behind you, yeah, yeah, yeah, but neither of
Speaker 3: you are either going to be five body links behind. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like the fact is like I'm comparing myself to a
Speaker 2: person who I'm like, objectively, you're the hardest working person
Speaker 2: I've ever known. You're one of the smartest people I've
Speaker 2: ever known. You're so creative, Like, oh my god.
Speaker 4: Did that have to be my Twitter? That's so true.
Speaker 2: So I think getting out of that comparison dynamic was important.
Speaker 2: And also I think I wanted some creative ownership or
Speaker 2: I just got to the point. I don't know if
Speaker 2: it's maturity wise or just LifeWise, where you think I
Speaker 2: want to make mistakes. I'm happy to make mistakes, but
Speaker 2: I want them to be my mistakes. I want to
Speaker 2: learn stuff for myself, whether that's you know, if I
Speaker 2: want to work on a creative project, I want to
Speaker 2: have my hands all over it and it be me
Speaker 2: forging the outcome and if it doesn't work, although that's
Speaker 2: on me.
Speaker 3: It's like moving out of home, which is really the
Speaker 3: equivalent to leave Mauma Maya the only job you had,
Speaker 3: and to leave Jesse is really I'm going to get
Speaker 3: a foot on and put it on the floor and
Speaker 3: it's going to be mine.
Speaker 1: And I might have trouble making rent exactly, but this
Speaker 1: is what's.
Speaker 2: Mine, and I'm going to decorate it how I want
Speaker 2: to decorate it. And you might think it's hideous, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: And how did you want to decorate it? By the way, I.
Speaker 2: Kind of got to a point, and it was Weirdly,
Speaker 2: people say that when you write a book, you are
Speaker 2: a different person by the time you get to the end,
Speaker 2: because if you're taking a character on an emotional journey,
Speaker 2: you take.
Speaker 4: Yourself through that journey you have to.
Speaker 2: And so the through osmosis, I had kind of thought, hmm,
Speaker 2: there's something happening in media and digital media and attention
Speaker 2: wise and with AI and with social.
Speaker 4: Media where I need to have a life where I
Speaker 4: slow down and pay attention.
Speaker 2: And so in terms of how I wanted to decorate
Speaker 2: my metaphorical place, I wanted it to be slow and intentional,
Speaker 2: and to build things in a way like when you
Speaker 2: post something on social media, even when you write you
Speaker 2: something for the Internet, it can feel like I was
Speaker 2: addicted to the dopemine high of seeing how it performed
Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you feel like it gets washed
Speaker 2: away so quickly. And I thought, that's the exciting thing
Speaker 2: about writing a book. You're like, at least this stands
Speaker 2: the test of time in some way. And so I
Speaker 2: basically wanted to build a career where it's the two
Speaker 2: speeds of On the one hand, I love writing on
Speaker 2: the Internet, and I love content and ideas and being
Speaker 2: tapped into the zeitgeist. But on the other hand, I
Speaker 2: wanted to write books and write TV and write stuff
Speaker 2: that had a little bit of immunity from the impulsive
Speaker 2: right of the online world.
Speaker 3: And who do you have that conversation with when you've
Speaker 3: had the realization, So obviously you're having this conversation with Rory. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I do think in this scenario, God, do Rory and
Speaker 3: Luca ever get together to have to debrief about.
Speaker 4: They probably need Yeah, they probably need to.
Speaker 2: I mean often it's the four of us and the girls,
Speaker 2: but they yeah, they they deal with a lot of
Speaker 2: emotional processing.
Speaker 4: But Rory.
Speaker 2: Has been so important for the book for decision making
Speaker 2: all of that because he's known me for so long
Speaker 2: and seeing all these iterations and all these you know,
Speaker 2: maybe emotional challenges that I've had. I feel like he
Speaker 2: knows me so well that he can actually weigh in
Speaker 2: in ways they are aligned, yes, what I actually want.
Speaker 4: But also had all those conversations with Jesse, and that's all.
Speaker 1: Jesse first after Rory, where you were like, I'm thinking.
Speaker 2: The same time, And then I'd go to Rory and say,
Speaker 2: Jesse has Jesse has this point and go to Jesse.
Speaker 1: And saying, oh, but Rory said this, like and Jesse
Speaker 1: would not have wanted you to leave?
Speaker 2: No, no, she well she didn't she didn't. She was
Speaker 2: very much like you know, saying canceled is the highlight
Speaker 2: of my week.
Speaker 4: And I loved it. And I was like, me too,
Speaker 4: me too, I love it. And it is hard to
Speaker 4: walk away from things that you've built.
Speaker 2: But I sort of was trying to say to her,
Speaker 2: this is probably the one tiny part of me that
Speaker 2: you can't understand, because this is an area of your
Speaker 2: life where she just doesn't. She's so good at knowing
Speaker 2: what she wants and not questioning it. It's so and
Speaker 2: she's bolder than I am. So even I in the
Speaker 2: book is dedicated to Jesse, and I say for showing
Speaker 2: me I could, because I think in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like having that person who is willing
Speaker 2: to dive in before you are so that you can
Speaker 2: see whether it's safe.
Speaker 4: And so she's bolder and she's braver than.
Speaker 1: I am, and so I can't say for you to
Speaker 1: leave was bold and braw.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I sort of saying to her, that's why
Speaker 4: I need to make.
Speaker 1: This decision, because it's I need to be brave.
Speaker 2: I need to just I need to do it, and
Speaker 2: I need to teach myself to be brave being out
Speaker 2: on my own, so I think she's really she understood
Speaker 2: it and has been. It's actually been amazing for our relationship,
Speaker 2: having that little degree of separation where we're really curious
Speaker 2: about each other's days, and she'll see something that I
Speaker 2: do and think, oh, that's really cool, and I'll see
Speaker 2: something she does and think that's cool.
Speaker 3: And also you're still familiar with the processes she's talking
Speaker 3: about in the people exactly although, are you coming back
Speaker 3: to this office for the first time, Yeah, I've.
Speaker 1: Seen how did that feel?
Speaker 4: Amazed? Like it's really really cool.
Speaker 2: It's sick and even you know downstairs in the lobby
Speaker 2: there's like all those there's place Yea.
Speaker 4: I was like, damn, this would be so hack. Yeah, like, oh,
Speaker 4: it's so good. But at the same time, I'm very
Speaker 4: much I very much feel like I Weirdly, as.
Speaker 2: I was making this decision, I interviewed Depak Chopra, but
Speaker 2: I were happy, and he talks about the concept of dharma.
Speaker 4: You're aware of darma, like kind of like what your path.
Speaker 1: Is not right karma?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does, it does, but like living a
Speaker 2: dharmic life that's in alignment with your values and all
Speaker 2: of that. And I interviewed him and I read his book.
Speaker 1: Was he happy?
Speaker 4: Ah?
Speaker 2: Yes, although he has really he's very optimistic about AI.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to challenge him about that because I
Speaker 2: was like, how are you happy about it? But I
Speaker 2: read all about that and weirdly, that was the time
Speaker 2: I was making the decision to leave, and I thought,
Speaker 2: in my Darma, Yeah, I was like, this is my.
Speaker 4: I'm not weir weird, but this is my Darmak path.
Speaker 1: And then when you left, what was the immediate change,
Speaker 1: Like how did your life look? How was that for Matilda?
Speaker 3: Your time with Matilda, which is always an attendant thing
Speaker 3: as a parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, finishing the book when I kind of did a big,
Speaker 2: like the big kind of finishing it a few months.
Speaker 2: As you would know from writing books, sometimes you're working
Speaker 2: on it for a really long time and then it's
Speaker 2: crunch time. You've got to put this together and it's
Speaker 2: got to get done. And I did that when Matilda
Speaker 2: was five or six months, like very young. And at
Speaker 2: that point I was going to the library seven days
Speaker 2: a week and sitting down and writing. And the guilt
Speaker 2: and like sadness that I felt, and I still I
Speaker 2: remember doing it and thinking like there is no right
Speaker 2: answer to this, Like, maybe it makes you really appreciate
Speaker 2: you know, the people who give themselves a year to
Speaker 2: stay at home with I'm like, hmm, maybe that's the
Speaker 2: right thing to do.
Speaker 3: Maybe like ing all the women, for instance, who give
Speaker 3: themselves to it in perpetuity.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought there is no right way to do this,
Speaker 2: and I have to sit in the comfortable reality that
Speaker 2: I don't know that I know that I need to
Speaker 2: do this for me and that I'm going to be
Speaker 2: a really good mum to her knowing I've done the
Speaker 2: thing I've always wanted to do. And so I was
Speaker 2: working crazy hours when she was that young. Then left
Speaker 2: Mum Maya, and I knew that my personality is I
Speaker 2: need structure and routine.
Speaker 4: Otherwise I will la la la la la years.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, a huge thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And so how.
Speaker 1: Did you impose that structure on yourself?
Speaker 2: I told myself, you need to be at the library
Speaker 2: in front of a computer at nine am every day,
Speaker 2: otherwise the day's going to be lost. So I was
Speaker 2: doing four days a week where I would go to
Speaker 2: the library. The local libraries know me so well. It's hilarious.
Speaker 2: And then now it's five days where I go and
Speaker 2: I'm very very lucky to do a hybrid of my
Speaker 2: mum helping out, my mother in law helping out, and
Speaker 2: I also go to a place called Bubbadesk, which is
Speaker 2: a coworking site with a.
Speaker 4: And so that and that was crucial. I would do
Speaker 4: that a few days.
Speaker 2: When Matilda was little and I was finishing my book
Speaker 2: and being able to write with her there, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'd be stuck and I'd think, I think I just
Speaker 2: need a sniff, and I'd run up, give her a sniff,
Speaker 2: you know, feed her whatever, and then come back down.
Speaker 2: Was great, But yeah, I very much imposed this structure
Speaker 2: of myself. And I also told myself have you read
Speaker 2: Atomic Habits? Oh, it's so good. Basically, the idea is
Speaker 2: if you're at the library nine am in front of
Speaker 2: a computer, you might procrastinate, but you can't procrastinate all day.
Speaker 1: Like it's like thing's going to get done.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It's like if your goal was just turn up to
Speaker 4: the gym, you I have to exit.
Speaker 1: Ye, you just got to turn up.
Speaker 4: You're probably not gonna stand.
Speaker 1: And every time I go to do weeks, yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, every time I go to yoga, I'm like, I
Speaker 3: might just line on the man, yeah, and you end
Speaker 3: up doing the class.
Speaker 2: And of course that's kind of how I've done. The
Speaker 2: habit thing is just turn up. Get about that, by
Speaker 2: the way, So it's the atomic The atomic bit is
Speaker 2: about the tininess of a of a habit that feels
Speaker 2: so so so small, but it's actually what changes your life.
Speaker 2: So it's actually the idea of yeah, walk in, get
Speaker 2: yourself in front of the computer. That's the only thing
Speaker 2: to focus on. Next minute, you've written a book, like
Speaker 2: that's the idea of it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, insane?
Speaker 4: And what was the what?
Speaker 1: So there were great things about leaving?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were the hardest things about leaving? And what
Speaker 1: have you missed?
Speaker 2: You know what I've missed is I was nervous about
Speaker 2: the social aspect that that being at my maya, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I have like one hundred friends and I can walk
Speaker 2: into that office and these people are my friends.
Speaker 1: And other ways. Hell yes, if you don't know, someone
Speaker 1: always knows something.
Speaker 2: And that bouncing of ideas, like I thought, I'll really
Speaker 2: miss that. That has been I've found that when you
Speaker 2: go out on your own you kind of create your
Speaker 2: own network anyway, so you're meeting people and working with people.
Speaker 2: It's just in a different way. So women, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I find that it is a lot of women. But
Speaker 2: the thing I'm seriously worried about is when you're in
Speaker 2: a workplace, you observe fashion.
Speaker 4: Trends, you see what people are there.
Speaker 2: And I realized that I'm like, I have no barometer
Speaker 2: without wearing, because it's not something I notice when I'm out,
Speaker 2: Like I'm very bad at picking up on like what
Speaker 2: jeans are we wearing, shoes we wearing, Whereas being in
Speaker 2: the momea office, you can't avoid knowing what the fashion.
Speaker 1: No, and GC often gets she knows she gets a cudgeling.
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly because she's explicitly told. And also you absorb it.
Speaker 4: And so I've said to I have to look at
Speaker 4: Jessie and be like, hey, what jeans, what jeans are
Speaker 4: we wearing at the moment?
Speaker 2: What what's the cool jumper? Like I've got no idea.
Speaker 2: So I do feel like a dag because I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think is that also liberating though, a little bit, Like.
Speaker 2: I literally when I'm at the library, I'm in Traxit
Speaker 2: pants and jumper.
Speaker 4: And I feel very.
Speaker 2: Myself and I feel also fashioned way, and I feel
Speaker 2: very Steve Jobs in it. You know how he didn't
Speaker 2: make decisions about what.
Speaker 4: It's like.
Speaker 2: I'm so important that I don't make decisions about what
Speaker 2: I wear.
Speaker 4: So I'm very that I'm I just wear my TRACKSI
Speaker 4: pants and my jumper, and you know it's not important
Speaker 4: to me. But yeah, no, when I do actually have
Speaker 4: to go out, I realize I don't know what the
Speaker 4: fashion is. I don't have a workplace.
Speaker 3: No, that's right, and and that is the real world
Speaker 3: that you aspired to be a part of. It exactly
Speaker 3: where everyone looks like they've got post natal depression and
Speaker 3: like me, their youngest kid is fifteen, exactly exactly. Okay,
Speaker 3: after this short break, I surprise Claire with a message
Speaker 3: from someone she's known since before birth.
Speaker 1: I've got something I want to share with you.
Speaker 4: Oh what is it?
Speaker 1: Well, it's from your sister.
Speaker 4: Oh no, oh gosh.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And because this is your exit interview, Oh yes, yes,
Speaker 3: is there anything you want to say before we Oh?
Speaker 1: What could be improved upon?
Speaker 4: Nothing? I say, I say, mamia, bloody great, thank you?
Speaker 3: So Hi Claire, it's me, Jesse. I probably called you
Speaker 3: four times since you've been in this record. Kind of
Speaker 3: rude for you not to pick up. Have you got
Speaker 3: your phone?
Speaker 1: I want to see if she's called you.
Speaker 4: Actually, I actually because she was in the room next door. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and she sent a message. Yes she has Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: yeah said how was Matilda?
Speaker 3: And I've never told you exactly how it felt when
Speaker 3: you left Mama Mia, or rather broke up with me
Speaker 3: because you wanted to be single, which I've always thought
Speaker 3: is a bullshit line people used to get out of relationships.
Speaker 3: After working together for ten years, laughing harder than we've
Speaker 3: ever laughed, writing Married at First Sight recaps, and recording
Speaker 3: episodes of Canceled, I felt like a desperate, pathetic girlfriend
Speaker 3: begging not to be dumped. Alas the begging strategy has
Speaker 3: never worked for anyone, and it didn't work this time.
Speaker 3: Once I moved past my own selfishness, all I've felt
Speaker 3: since is pride. Your words are my favorite to read,
Speaker 3: and your ideas are my favorite to hear. What a
Speaker 3: privilege to watch you from a different advantage point when
Speaker 3: we work together. I don't think either of us know
Speaker 3: or care where we begin or end. But what independence
Speaker 3: has probably allowed is for us to explore those edges
Speaker 3: and stop attributing any success to the other one. Sometimes
Speaker 3: you have to know your success is yours to own.
Speaker 3: And I hope you feel that I never wrote you
Speaker 3: a farewell letter, So consider this ascend off. Thank you
Speaker 3: for being my favorite ever colleague, and I hope we
Speaker 3: cross paths again one day, like tomorrow when you're in
Speaker 3: my house because I left the door unlocked. I love
Speaker 3: you more than anyone could ever love anyone.
Speaker 2: Oh God, I not a crier. I'm not a sentimental person.
Speaker 2: But bloody hell, she's a good writer, is it she
Speaker 2: She's very talented.
Speaker 1: She's a good writer. And also like she knows, she's
Speaker 1: got an audience to impress.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very hard to impress because you know everything
Speaker 3: about her.
Speaker 1: Did you know that?
Speaker 2: That's the I don't know the thing about about feeling
Speaker 2: feeling proud. I think that we don't really say that
Speaker 2: to each other. And I think she's right about the
Speaker 2: edges that she has definitely had moments in her career
Speaker 2: where yeah, that are hers hers, and I feel so
Speaker 2: much pride. I like her books that there is no
Speaker 2: pride I've ever felt like reading her books because I
Speaker 2: just think, holy shit, ours is my sister, Like this
Speaker 2: is just and it's a fascinating experience because I can
Speaker 2: see certain references and certain inspiration, but there are other bits.
Speaker 1: That you don't know where it came from.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know that is just you. That
Speaker 2: is a part of your soul that was unknown to me.
Speaker 2: I think the book has been a very a very
Speaker 2: important part of forming an identity that is separate. Has
Speaker 2: Jess read She has, so she was the first person
Speaker 2: outside of my publisher to read it. And they say
Speaker 2: that when you write a book, I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've found this, that you always you really have one reader.
Speaker 2: You're you're writing for one person, whether you're conscious of
Speaker 2: it or not, and often you don't really know who
Speaker 2: that is as you're writing.
Speaker 4: But as soon as I gave it to Jesse, oent
Speaker 4: it's her.
Speaker 2: That's her, Like she's she is the audience, She's the
Speaker 2: person I'm When I'm trying to write something funny, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to make Jesse laugh. When I'm trying to write
Speaker 2: something profound, I'm trying to make her feel something. And
Speaker 2: she has just said the absolute kindest things. And we
Speaker 2: also don't bullshit each other. We're not We never Jesse
Speaker 2: said the other day, we never tell each other we're pretty.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 4: I never say you're pretty like, don't.
Speaker 1: We don't do that.
Speaker 2: And so when we do compliment each other, we really
Speaker 2: do mean it. So that's why something like that means
Speaker 2: means a lot, because we don't do that a lot.
Speaker 2: And with the book, she just said that the kindest,
Speaker 2: most moving things about it that made me feel like
Speaker 2: I had succeeded in writing for that reader.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That can be interesting in going through the world and thinking,
Speaker 2: I like every experience I have, every idea I hear,
Speaker 2: I really just want to.
Speaker 4: Share it with her.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I have to stop myself and think, hold on,
Speaker 2: is it enough that I've just had this experience. But
Speaker 2: I also think that's the nature of life, like you
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 1: Share and people dream of having that person.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and relationships, I think of the life is nothing.
Speaker 1: And you're very good at relationships. Both of you are
Speaker 1: very good at relationships.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, you are obviously are, aren't you.
Speaker 4: I think I like having been a twin. I think
Speaker 4: it makes you really both of us say that.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like I'm not particularly good one on
Speaker 2: one because I'm used to having another person there. I'm
Speaker 2: used to having Jesse that. Yes, yes, but I do
Speaker 2: think it makes you it's probably a little bit toxic.
Speaker 2: But we often give each other like social feedback. So
Speaker 2: after a dinner or whatever where it's been the two
Speaker 2: of us and somebody, we'll give feedback.
Speaker 1: To each other on your performance and what form does
Speaker 1: that haen?
Speaker 2: So sometimes it might be like, hey, just be careful
Speaker 2: when you like, you know, say this kind of thing.
Speaker 2: It might make somebody feel like, oh oh yeah, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: good point point and we won't get offended by that, right,
Speaker 2: But it's sort of this constant feedback which is probably
Speaker 2: helpful because both of us probably feel like we'd quite
Speaker 2: like social feedback.
Speaker 1: Yes, and also it's coming from someone you know loves.
Speaker 3: You, yes, yes, and it's not saying it's always the
Speaker 3: thing about criticism.
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, you are a delight Thank you.
Speaker 3: You're very missed at Mamma Maya and across the platforms,
Speaker 3: and I think I can speak on behalf of the
Speaker 3: entire million Mumma maas when I say thank you for
Speaker 3: your service and your goodwill and your thoughts and your
Speaker 3: humor and your laughter, and you're sharing yourself, thank you
Speaker 3: and showing yourself you and what happens next.
Speaker 1: You'll go in and see Jesse.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I'll go see Jesse and
Speaker 2: we'll just be like, hey, how you going. But Lifelise,
Speaker 2: this book is about to come out, and I hope
Speaker 2: people read it, and I hope it starts a conversation,
Speaker 2: and I hope that there's lots more of kind of that,
Speaker 2: those two speeds of the deep slow work.
Speaker 4: Right and the faster kind of zeitgeisty work. But but yeah,
Speaker 4: it's a space I just I just love to be
Speaker 4: and I think women in media are my people.
Speaker 3: And Clay Stevens, you're our people, thank you, which is nice.
Speaker 3: It's nice to have a I mean, I know you've
Speaker 3: got your twin, but it's also nice to have a tribe,
Speaker 3: even though they could turn on you and destroy you at.
Speaker 4: Any moment, any moment. And that's what the book, that's
Speaker 4: what women are love.
Speaker 1: It's our prerogative to change our minds exactly. Thanks beautiful one,
Speaker 1: thank you. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3: I love these girls, and I kind of feel bad
Speaker 3: because I know their twins and twins always get.
Speaker 1: Lumped together, but.
Speaker 3: The some of the whole is really not much greater
Speaker 3: than some of the parts because of some of the
Speaker 3: parts with Claire Stevens and Jesse Stevens is so remarkable.
Speaker 1: Claire is a brilliant writer. She's so honest.
Speaker 3: She's an editor, a podcaster, a screenwriter, a twin, a partner,
Speaker 3: a mother. But what makes her remarkable isn't just the
Speaker 3: role she's had, Like I said, it's the honesty with
Speaker 3: which she reflects on them, and the humor and the grace,
Speaker 3: And in the end, her story is less about what
Speaker 3: she does and more about who she is becoming, which
Speaker 3: is even more amazing. Thank you so much for listening
Speaker 3: to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter is
Speaker 3: Naima Brown. The senior producer is Breed Player. Audio production
Speaker 3: is by Jacob Brown, and video editing is by Josh Green.
Speaker 3: I am your host, Kate lane Brook. See you next week.