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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: I'm comparing myself to a person who objectively, You're the

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Speaker 2: hardest working person I've ever known. You're one of the

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Speaker 2: smartest people I've ever known. You're so creative, Like, Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, did that have to be my twin?

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I cannot wait for today's guest.

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Speaker 3: It is someone who has spent most of her adult

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Speaker 3: life right here in the Mamma Mia office. It's Claire Stevens,

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Speaker 3: who once was known as Claire from Mamma Mia, where

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Speaker 3: she rose to become editor in chief, shaping some of

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Speaker 3: the most viral stories and conversations in the Australian media landscape.

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Speaker 1: And she's also a twin. You might have heard of

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Speaker 1: her sister.

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Speaker 3: It's an identity that has defined her since birth, but

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Speaker 3: in recent years Claire has been on a journey to

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Speaker 3: discover who she is when those labels are stripped away.

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Speaker 3: Her career has taken her from the newsroom to screenwriting

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Speaker 3: on the hit series Strife, to creating a podcast about

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Speaker 3: public pylons, and now to publishing.

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Speaker 1: Her first novel.

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Speaker 3: It's really good, the worst thing I've ever done, A sharp,

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Speaker 3: compassionate look at cancel culture and the way the Internet

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Speaker 3: can turn on anyone at any time.

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Speaker 1: Claire has also.

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Speaker 3: Lived through her own defining moments, from a traumatic birth

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Speaker 3: to navigating the brutality of online scrutiny, and she has

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Speaker 3: thought deeply about the invisible cost of how we treat

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Speaker 3: women online. This is truly a conversation about identity and

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Speaker 3: what happens when the Internet forgets is a human being

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Speaker 3: on the other side of the screen.

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Speaker 1: Stevens, Welcome to No Filter.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me now.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know about this organization.

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Speaker 4: Haven't heard much.

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Speaker 1: Mumma maya.

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Speaker 3: Yeah interesting, although, as Siri pronounces it on my phone, mammaemia.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, that's so upsetting.

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Speaker 1: And it's a platform for women and girls, Okay.

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Speaker 4: Is it related to the ab song or.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, I don't know what the genesis of it.

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Speaker 2: Was, ok Because often when I used to tell people

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Speaker 2: I worked from Mayo.

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Speaker 4: Go oh my god, I love the musical.

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Speaker 2: The Aba Musical, And I'm like, honestly, some days I'd

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Speaker 2: love to work for the Aba Musical.

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Speaker 3: Not if it's the part where Piterce Brosnan is singing,

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Speaker 3: oh no, no, no, that was very bad.

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Speaker 4: Every every Meryl Street moment, all.

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Speaker 3: Of those exactly, we take any merrill. Now listen, this

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Speaker 3: is your exit interview.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, no, oh no. So when did you leave,

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mia.

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Speaker 4: I left beginning of this year.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of recently.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so I sort of wrapped up end of last year, right,

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Speaker 2: and then wasn't coming back in the new year. So

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Speaker 2: it's mean I'm trying to remind myself sometimes a panic,

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Speaker 2: I'm like.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I've been gone for that long and

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Speaker 4: have I done all the things that I wanted to do?

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Speaker 4: And then I think, hold on, it hasn't actually been

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Speaker 4: that long.

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Speaker 3: No, that's not long. And also because you were here

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Speaker 3: for ten years years. Yeah, you came as after a

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Speaker 3: phone call you got from Maya. Yeah that you thought

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Speaker 3: was a prank.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I got an email, an email from Maa, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, this is so mean that somebody would pretend

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Speaker 2: to be me a freedman. Because Jesse and I were

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Speaker 2: my sister and I were writing a blog together that

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Speaker 2: we loved and writing for a couple of very fringe publications,

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Speaker 2: and then this email came from someone claiming to be

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Speaker 2: Maya Friedman saying that they loved our writing.

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Speaker 1: And wanted to that stage.

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Speaker 3: You were doing the recaps of The Biggest Loser, which

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Speaker 3: is that puts it in a time.

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Speaker 4: It really does, it really does.

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Speaker 2: And I was doing at the time, I was doing

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Speaker 2: a Masters of research in eating disorders and obesity, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get these kind of semi academic ideas

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Speaker 2: about the way we talk about body shape and health

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Speaker 2: and all of that. I wanted to put them in

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Speaker 2: the mainstream and communicate them. So Jess and I had

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Speaker 2: always watched The Biggest Loser for reasons we can't explain.

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Speaker 4: We all did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, by the way, well I think we could explain it.

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Speaker 3: I think we probably could. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fascinating.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so we were recapping that, and yeah, Maya reached out,

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Speaker 2: and from there I was so excited that somebody liked

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Speaker 2: our writing.

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Speaker 3: And also because then you were I mean you were

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Speaker 3: born a unit. Yeah, the pair of you, you and Jesse,

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Speaker 3: and then you came to Mauma Maya as a unit.

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Speaker 3: Now that's what was Jesse's studying when you was doing

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Speaker 3: your psyche.

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Speaker 2: Jesse had finished her masters of research the year before

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Speaker 2: she was She has a master's in history, history and

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Speaker 2: gender studies, so she had finished.

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Speaker 1: She really wanted to be unemployed.

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Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, I want to study psychology, but

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be a psychologist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. What do I want to do?

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Speaker 4: A really great idea for employment.

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Speaker 2: And so both of us in that year had sort

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Speaker 2: of realized that we wanted to write, and we were

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Speaker 2: looking at the media landscape thinking, you know, even looking

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Speaker 2: at people who were social commentators almost and thinking how

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Speaker 2: do you get to do that?

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Speaker 1: And so was that at that time? What were you

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Speaker 1: looking at? What was around?

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Speaker 4: Remember, we were obsessed with Mamaya, Rosie Water.

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Speaker 1: And the Bachelors and weirdly, who do you?

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Speaker 2: A few months before Mia reached out, my cousin gifted

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Speaker 2: us tickets to go and see Rosie's book launch. In

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Speaker 2: conversation with Mia and so Jess and I sat in

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Speaker 2: this audience and it was one of those moments where

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Speaker 2: you go, oh God, I'd love to be part of

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Speaker 2: this organization.

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Speaker 4: I'd love to be Rosie Wonder, I'd love to do

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Speaker 4: all these things.

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Speaker 2: And then you go, but look around, probably all of

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Speaker 2: these women would love that, and so it's not going

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Speaker 2: to happen. And then so when Mia reached out, we

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Speaker 2: were so surprised. But interestingly, on that first meeting, she

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Speaker 2: said she was almost She said, oh, I thought that

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Speaker 2: maybe you wouldn't maybe you're kind of too edgy for Mamya,

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Speaker 2: Like you wouldn't think Mamya was cool.

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Speaker 4: And we're like, ah, We're like, no, we love it. Well.

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Speaker 1: I think you know that's been a hallmark of your

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Speaker 1: work is very.

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Speaker 3: Accessible, yep, yep, yeah, but also incorporating like some of

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Speaker 3: these ideas for lutin ideas at university yea hopefully, which

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Speaker 3: is a very difficult thing to do, to make the

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Speaker 3: esoteric relatable and clear and to refine it so that

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Speaker 3: people go, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I hope.

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Speaker 2: I hope that that's what both Jess and I are

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Speaker 2: able to do, because when you're at UNI, you realize

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Speaker 2: that you work on.

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Speaker 4: Something for so long and.

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Speaker 2: It in some cases will only be read by so

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Speaker 2: few people, and you think there's a lot of research

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Speaker 2: I did for my novel, like a lot of academic research,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it's so interesting because this academic research

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Speaker 2: is so clever and complex, and I wish everyone could

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Speaker 2: read it, but it's behind a paywall. It is the

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Speaker 2: type of language that not everybody can understand.

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Speaker 1: It involves reading, exactly.

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Speaker 2: It involves reading and understanding, you know, the all the

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Speaker 2: layers of research, and it involves a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff that not everybody can access. So I think that

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Speaker 2: there is something really important about getting those ideas and

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Speaker 2: putting them in a palatable way that people can.

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Speaker 1: Unders And also, what you and Jesse did together was

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Speaker 1: use humor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is.

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Speaker 3: Such a gateway and it's it's actually I'm often amused

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Speaker 3: by comedian friends who then go down a kind of

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Speaker 3: more strident or political pathway because I think so few

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Speaker 3: people have the gift of humor.

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Speaker 4: Yep, ye, yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's so many people that can tub thump and whatever,

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Speaker 3: and that's important, but so few people have the gift

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Speaker 3: of being able to parlay a thought through humor. And

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Speaker 3: you two both had that.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you.

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Speaker 3: And so at what point did you realize when you

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Speaker 3: came in to Mum and Mia And to me, it

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Speaker 3: kind of feels that you've always been here, Yeah, what

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Speaker 3: point did you?

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Speaker 1: Oh, way this is working?

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Speaker 2: I think it was a couple of years in like

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Speaker 2: we both of us when we started had a moment

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Speaker 2: of thinking, oh wow, I feel like this was where

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Speaker 2: I was always meant to be.

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Speaker 4: Like we both, I'll speak myself.

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Speaker 2: I love ideas and building concepts and challenging each other

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Speaker 2: and all of that, and the being around women who

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Speaker 2: just were so clever and so creative I found really exciting.

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Speaker 2: The other thing And I don't know if you feel this,

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Speaker 2: but growing up I thought it was actually quite radical

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Speaker 2: to be a funny woman. I don't think that there

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Speaker 2: are that many, especially when you're a teenager and young

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Speaker 2: adult and your value is coming from, you know, your appearance,

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Speaker 2: or the validation that you get from romantic partners all

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Speaker 2: of that. I always looked at funny women with a

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Speaker 2: type of awe and respect that I just thought, I

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Speaker 2: think there is power in that.

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Speaker 4: There is so much power in somebody laughing at you.

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Speaker 1: Where did the funny come from? So in your family dynamic.

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Speaker 2: Dad's got a pretty weird sense of humor, very very dry.

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Speaker 2: Mum is also is also very funny. But I think

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Speaker 2: my sister and I and then we've got twin brothers.

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Speaker 2: Have always have always had a very specific sense of humor.

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Speaker 4: But growing up, I remember watching TV.

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Speaker 2: My mum watched every episode of the Panel, and I

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Speaker 2: remember looking at you and being obsessed and thinking, she

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Speaker 2: is so funny, and that is rare.

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Speaker 4: That is really rare.

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Speaker 2: And it was rare when I was growing up to

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Speaker 2: see a really funny woman on television.

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Speaker 3: It's funny because when I was looking, I started reading

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Speaker 3: your book last night. This is the Bookations, by the way,

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Speaker 3: because a baby in a book and a new life.

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Speaker 1: And it's a lot.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot. It's a lot, and you always like

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Speaker 4: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Fuck you girls are I'm going to say you're overachieved.

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Speaker 4: I don't feel like that, but thank you. No.

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Speaker 3: I think I think you probably never do, because you

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Speaker 3: seem to be aware of what you haven't done.

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Speaker 1: This is about what you have done. Okay, just take

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Speaker 1: a little moment to that.

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Speaker 3: But it's funny that you mentioned that because this is

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Speaker 3: about a girl who gets canceled. And I was thinking

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Speaker 3: and MEA and I have discussed this before because she's

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Speaker 3: had her own uncomfortable ride at that Rodano, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think I've been canceled, But the closest I came

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Speaker 3: was doing the panel.

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Speaker 1: What happened when I.

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Speaker 4: Breastfeed I remember, I remember that moment.

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Speaker 1: My first son, and that was before socials or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But the insane level of feedback on that of a

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Speaker 3: woman who'd gone back to work and just dropped in.

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Speaker 3: I say, go back to work, but it was I

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Speaker 3: dropped in at my friends. We'd done a show. I

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Speaker 3: think Lewis was like three or four weeks old, and

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Speaker 3: I had said to my husband, if Lewis makes a sound,

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Speaker 3: just bring him down to me.

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Speaker 1: An old feeder. That's all I knew how to do.

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Speaker 3: I knew how to do with a baby anything. If

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Speaker 3: he pulled a face or whatever, it was just titt

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Speaker 3: in the mouth, that was. If he had hiccups or whatever,

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Speaker 3: it was just feeding.

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Speaker 1: Anyway.

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Speaker 3: So that happened, and it was towards the end of

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Speaker 3: the show look in an ad break, Peter brought Lewis down.

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Speaker 1: I popped him on.

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Speaker 3: I'd been with the guys the day earlier, I'd been

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Speaker 3: feeding him at a meeting.

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Speaker 1: They enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care if people enjoy watching me breastet.

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Speaker 1: You can, That's not what I'm doing it for I'm

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Speaker 1: doing it for him anyway.

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Speaker 3: But the cancelation thing is an extraordinary concept. So I

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Speaker 3: know you did the show canceled, Yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: What is your interest in that?

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Speaker 2: I think from being at my MAA for a decade,

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Speaker 2: I was in the unique experience of seeing those things

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Speaker 2: that blow up in the media, whether it's someone said

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Speaker 2: the wrong thing, they've published an article that had the

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Speaker 2: wrong language, whether they've just done something that makes no

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Speaker 2: sense to other people. I was in the unique position of,

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Speaker 2: through the network of media, actually finding myself face to

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Speaker 2: face with those people and realizing that they are not monsters.

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Speaker 2: They are a mass of vulnerabilities, and you it is

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Speaker 2: so easy to dehumanize somebody and to see them as

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Speaker 2: almost an avatar. We all become avatars online. And I

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Speaker 2: think the reason I was fascinated by it was because

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Speaker 2: I have been on both sides of it.

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Speaker 3: I've been on both all right, all right, so you've

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Speaker 3: been leading the witch hunts, yeah, and like, not to a.

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Speaker 2: Huge extent, but I realized that something would happen to

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Speaker 2: me and I'd think, oh gosh, I used to be

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Speaker 2: the person who would call people.

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Speaker 1: Out for that, and I enjoy them getting called out yes.

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Speaker 4: And I like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and feeling really

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Speaker 4: morally superior because I am above that and I would

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Speaker 4: never make such a mistake. And there was one particular person.

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Speaker 2: When I first started writing on the internet, I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to do kind of social commentary, and I think

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Speaker 2: what women do. Women are so emotionally intelligent that I

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Speaker 2: think what we want to do is we want to

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Speaker 2: explore morality through the prism of people. And so there

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Speaker 2: was one particular woman in Australian public life that I

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Speaker 2: looked at and I wrote a lot about her and

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Speaker 2: seeing her as almost a symbol of greed, money, exploitation,

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Speaker 2: of all these things.

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Speaker 4: And I wrote so much about her.

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Speaker 1: Who was that, don't do you don't want to name them?

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Speaker 4: Well, who i'd like to know. I'd like to know

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Speaker 4: from you, if you think I can say it. It's

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Speaker 4: Roxy Jasenko.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if she would mind. I don't know

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Speaker 4: if she would mind.

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Speaker 1: Because I think she wouldn't surprise her.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I had written about Roxy Jasenko and then through

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Speaker 2: work stuff, I met her and I found myself face

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Speaker 2: to face with her and she was lovely.

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Speaker 4: She was lovely, and I went, you know.

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Speaker 2: What I don't and thank god she's such a busy woman.

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Speaker 2: But she had no idea that I had written she

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Speaker 2: had and this was years later, But I just thought,

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Speaker 2: I don't actually know you. I don't I don't know you,

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Speaker 2: and what I've done is dehumanize you. I have not

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Speaker 2: offered you the dignity of slow, considered judgment. I've jumped

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Speaker 2: on the tiny, surface level things I know about you,

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Speaker 2: and I have had fun with that in quite a

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Speaker 2: icky way that I don't feel comfortable.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because I mean, she was big on conspicuous consumption, yep, yep.

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Speaker 3: But some people are allowed to the Kardashians carte blanche

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Speaker 3: for you know, for any whatever, bucci, lambeau, blah blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah blah blah. And yet in when

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00:16:53,005 --> 00:16:57,885
Speaker 3: certain other people manifest those traits or show off what

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Speaker 3: they have, it elicits anger from us, competition, comparison, a sense,

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Speaker 3: like you said, of this morality, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Like practicing your morality to someone.

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Speaker 1: That is, as someone who has a psych degree.

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Speaker 4: That is I think what happens.

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Speaker 2: We really do want to prosecute moral questions, and I

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Speaker 2: think that is so important that we do that, and

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Speaker 2: I think there is something to be said about analyzing

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Speaker 2: conspicuous consumption. However, I do not think the way to

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Speaker 2: do that is through tearing apart an individual, because when

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Speaker 2: you do that, you are placing that individual in contempt,

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Speaker 2: you are not considering their complex humanity, and.

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Speaker 4: It also takes away from the entire point.

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Speaker 2: Like I do think the media, the way that our

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Speaker 2: media has evolved, has made this really hard because.

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Speaker 4: There are issues.

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Speaker 2: You will find that most of the big issues in

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Speaker 2: the zeitgeist we explore through individuals. So there will be

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Speaker 2: a global conflict, there will be a you know, a

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Speaker 2: question about feminism, and instead of having a philosophical conversation

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Speaker 2: about it, we point to a person. We go, you

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Speaker 2: are a symbol of this size, You are a symbol

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Speaker 2: of this side, and we play that off. That is

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Speaker 2: because no one's going to pay attention to the philosophical

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Speaker 2: debate about it. We want the faith, we want the

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Speaker 2: which hunt, we want the scapegoat.

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Speaker 4: That's the only way we're going to pay attention.

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Speaker 3: And also, I think once upon a time, like we've

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Speaker 3: lost the institutions where we would probably analyze that no

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Speaker 3: one goes to church. Once upon a time everyone went

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Speaker 3: to church and then you were told this is good

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Speaker 3: and this is bad.

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Speaker 1: We don't have that. So now is social media the

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Speaker 1: new church?

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Speaker 4: Yep?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not a broad church.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: If you deviate from what is considered acceptable, and those

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00:19:00,925 --> 00:19:07,925
Speaker 3: parameters shift all the time, yes, exactly. Do not go

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Speaker 3: anywhere there's more insight, more honesty, and yes, more laughter

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Speaker 3: with Clay Stevens after this short break.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever get canceled?

352
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Speaker 2: I have had a few experiences. I wouldn't call it

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Speaker 2: the scale of being canceled. I've had tiny, tiny moments

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Speaker 2: where I have been, say, called out online, and those

355
00:19:33,245 --> 00:19:38,285
Speaker 2: moments are so sickening and all consuming that when it happened,

356
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Speaker 2: I thought there's a book in this, and I really

357
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Speaker 2: wanted to give myself the challenge of showing, rather than telling,

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Speaker 2: how that feels. And so a couple of times, I

359
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Speaker 2: remember when I was editor in chief, it was the

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Speaker 2: most bizarre story.

361
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Speaker 4: We ran an.

362
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Speaker 2: Interview with somebody who called out somebody else, and then

363
00:20:01,565 --> 00:20:03,965
Speaker 2: that somebody else got in touch with me and said, no,

364
00:20:04,445 --> 00:20:06,925
Speaker 2: she's the one who's actually done this, and before I

365
00:20:06,965 --> 00:20:08,685
Speaker 2: knew it, it was ten am, and I was on

366
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Speaker 2: phone call to these two women who are like, I'm

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Speaker 2: taking her to the police because she's trolling me, and

368
00:20:13,325 --> 00:20:15,405
Speaker 2: the other one's like, I have a private detective, and

369
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Speaker 2: I was like, I have a team of twenty people

370
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Speaker 2: and I'm meant to be editing their work. I'm sorry,

371
00:20:19,245 --> 00:20:22,005
Speaker 2: I don't have time for this. So I said, guys,

372
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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. We're just gonna take it down. I

373
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Speaker 2: don't nobody here has the resources to work out what's happening.

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Speaker 2: And one of those women, when on social media, posted

375
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Speaker 2: my because my email signature had my phone number, so

376
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Speaker 2: posted my photo photos of my family, photos of my

377
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Speaker 2: dogster yeah, and phone number, and just like this woman

378
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Speaker 2: is doing all these things to me and silencing me

379
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Speaker 2: and burh rauh. And it is so frustrating because you

380
00:20:52,965 --> 00:20:55,645
Speaker 2: have no pat and you just feel like saying one,

381
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Speaker 2: that's not a very good way of showing me that

382
00:20:58,285 --> 00:21:02,365
Speaker 2: you were the moral, righteous person in this direction, because

383
00:21:02,365 --> 00:21:04,925
Speaker 2: that's a pretty rash thing to do. I don't have

384
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Speaker 2: any control over that, Like I don't. I can't say

385
00:21:07,645 --> 00:21:10,445
Speaker 2: there's no board, remember I can go to to say

386
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Speaker 2: not this is unfair. I've also had what I have

387
00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:19,365
Speaker 2: found fascinating is the situations where the brutality of real

388
00:21:19,485 --> 00:21:20,965
Speaker 2: life collides.

389
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Speaker 4: With something going on in the internet.

390
00:21:22,165 --> 00:21:25,525
Speaker 2: Going on on the internet, So there have been moments

391
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Speaker 2: where I'm being called out for something running, like running

392
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Speaker 2: a story that used the wrong language.

393
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Speaker 4: I remember there was a moment.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this, and we've sort

395
00:21:37,285 --> 00:21:40,645
Speaker 2: of gone past it now, but there was a lot

396
00:21:40,725 --> 00:21:44,085
Speaker 2: of conversation about if you were going to do a

397
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Speaker 2: story about women's health, whether you could say women or

398
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Speaker 2: if you had to say people with vaginas or people.

399
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Speaker 4: With volvers or uteruses or whatever.

400
00:21:54,285 --> 00:21:57,205
Speaker 2: And we ran a story that I think actually erred

401
00:21:57,245 --> 00:22:01,125
Speaker 2: on the side of inclusivity and said people with vaginas

402
00:22:01,165 --> 00:22:07,045
Speaker 2: or something like that, and people were furious and saying, no,

403
00:22:07,365 --> 00:22:11,885
Speaker 2: this is invalidating women's experiences and all this, and I

404
00:22:12,045 --> 00:22:14,805
Speaker 2: was sort of trying to navigate that, and at the

405
00:22:14,885 --> 00:22:17,885
Speaker 2: same time, someone really close to me was in hospital,

406
00:22:18,885 --> 00:22:21,845
Speaker 2: and so I was in hospital looking around. You know,

407
00:22:22,045 --> 00:22:24,725
Speaker 2: the stakes of life are never higher than when somebody

408
00:22:24,805 --> 00:22:27,245
Speaker 2: you know is really sick and you just want to

409
00:22:27,245 --> 00:22:28,005
Speaker 2: scream me your phone.

410
00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:32,245
Speaker 4: This is ridiculous. This is absolutely ridiculous.

411
00:22:31,805 --> 00:22:33,725
Speaker 3: And yet you are also a quog in the machine

412
00:22:33,845 --> 00:22:36,205
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, and like AI.

413
00:22:36,085 --> 00:22:37,725
Speaker 1: The machine is turning on you.

414
00:22:38,045 --> 00:22:41,325
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, as it will all of us. Yes, yes,

415
00:22:42,045 --> 00:22:43,085
Speaker 4: and so and so.

416
00:22:43,325 --> 00:22:47,125
Speaker 2: I really wanted to with the book basically hold those

417
00:22:47,205 --> 00:22:51,845
Speaker 2: two things at once. The absurdity of what we're arguing

418
00:22:52,005 --> 00:22:55,005
Speaker 2: on the internet, and it's a zero sum game. And

419
00:22:55,085 --> 00:22:59,165
Speaker 2: I don't think we're actually doing anything. I don't think

420
00:22:59,205 --> 00:23:03,725
Speaker 2: we're kind of reaching consensus in the way that we

421
00:23:03,845 --> 00:23:06,445
Speaker 2: think we are. I don't think we're changing people's minds

422
00:23:06,525 --> 00:23:08,885
Speaker 2: in the way that I wish we were. I think

423
00:23:09,525 --> 00:23:14,685
Speaker 2: the discourse online is increasingly really really toxic and unhelpful.

424
00:23:15,405 --> 00:23:18,125
Speaker 4: And then contrasting that with what real life is.

425
00:23:18,805 --> 00:23:23,085
Speaker 2: And the other thing about real life that I would

426
00:23:23,125 --> 00:23:27,485
Speaker 2: think in these moments is you forgive people. In real life,

427
00:23:27,765 --> 00:23:32,965
Speaker 2: when a friend is shitty, you forgive them, and you

428
00:23:33,085 --> 00:23:34,685
Speaker 2: have a blueprint for how to move forward.

429
00:23:35,045 --> 00:23:36,605
Speaker 4: We do not have that online.

430
00:23:37,245 --> 00:23:42,485
Speaker 2: If somebody stuffs up online, the glee in always holding

431
00:23:42,765 --> 00:23:45,125
Speaker 2: that person to the worst thing they ever did.

432
00:23:45,885 --> 00:23:46,525
Speaker 4: There is no.

433
00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:51,325
Speaker 2: Way forward where we go, Okay, you know what, We've

434
00:23:51,405 --> 00:23:55,725
Speaker 2: made our point. I think we've been heard. That person

435
00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,045
Speaker 2: has apologized, So let's move on.

436
00:23:58,205 --> 00:23:59,405
Speaker 4: That doesn't it's not a thing.

437
00:23:59,885 --> 00:24:00,805
Speaker 1: No, that's not a thing.

438
00:24:02,085 --> 00:24:06,205
Speaker 3: Although the grace of it is, if there's anything, is

439
00:24:06,285 --> 00:24:08,405
Speaker 3: that things move on so cool exactly.

440
00:24:08,325 --> 00:24:10,365
Speaker 1: That if you can just keep your head down, it'll

441
00:24:10,485 --> 00:24:11,285
Speaker 1: totally blow over.

442
00:24:11,405 --> 00:24:17,405
Speaker 3: Like people yeah, constantly, like remember things that you're like, oh, yeah,

443
00:24:17,445 --> 00:24:20,925
Speaker 3: what seems so significant at the time is now like, yeah,

444
00:24:21,325 --> 00:24:23,885
Speaker 3: did that happen. There's always something in the room that goes, oh,

445
00:24:23,965 --> 00:24:26,125
Speaker 3: that's right, I've got about that. At the time, it

446
00:24:26,205 --> 00:24:27,085
Speaker 3: seemed monumintalk.

447
00:24:27,205 --> 00:24:29,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to the individual at the center of it,

448
00:24:29,685 --> 00:24:33,725
Speaker 2: it feels like everyone's talking about it, everyone's watching, and

449
00:24:33,885 --> 00:24:36,845
Speaker 2: it's pretty much never the case, like if you go out.

450
00:24:36,725 --> 00:24:39,045
Speaker 4: Into the real world, no one knows what the hell

451
00:24:39,085 --> 00:24:41,965
Speaker 4: you're talking now, But for you, it feels like that.

452
00:24:42,085 --> 00:24:44,645
Speaker 2: And the scary thing is for people who've had these experiences,

453
00:24:44,725 --> 00:24:49,325
Speaker 2: and I've for the book, I interviewed many, many media

454
00:24:49,565 --> 00:24:52,285
Speaker 2: figures who have had these experiences, and they will say

455
00:24:53,165 --> 00:24:59,245
Speaker 2: the scary thing is that months, years after they've been canceled,

456
00:24:59,285 --> 00:25:02,365
Speaker 2: piled on, whatever you want to call it, they will

457
00:25:02,445 --> 00:25:05,125
Speaker 2: still be on their way to an event and get

458
00:25:05,165 --> 00:25:08,045
Speaker 2: a call saying I'm sorry, we've had a complaint from oh,

459
00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:12,605
Speaker 2: we can't have. And even if the person organizing the

460
00:25:12,645 --> 00:25:16,765
Speaker 2: event disagrees with the complaint thinks that it's ridiculous, there

461
00:25:16,925 --> 00:25:21,245
Speaker 2: is this fear of things blowing up, and of like,

462
00:25:21,445 --> 00:25:23,405
Speaker 2: if you're running an event, you want things to go smoothly.

463
00:25:24,045 --> 00:25:27,645
Speaker 2: So for those people, it does follow them in really

464
00:25:27,685 --> 00:25:29,845
Speaker 2: subtle ways, and even if it doesn't. I think it's

465
00:25:29,885 --> 00:25:33,405
Speaker 2: the fear that if these people will.

466
00:25:33,325 --> 00:25:35,765
Speaker 3: Come back of us, and that is the pac mentality

467
00:25:35,885 --> 00:25:38,645
Speaker 3: of it, exactly that the people in the herd as well,

468
00:25:38,685 --> 00:25:42,285
Speaker 3: are like, oh, I better join the rest in you know,

469
00:25:42,765 --> 00:25:44,245
Speaker 3: tearing down the wilderbeast.

470
00:25:44,485 --> 00:25:46,565
Speaker 1: Yes, because otherwise they're coming for me.

471
00:25:47,485 --> 00:25:51,245
Speaker 2: And this is part of our Yeah, this is kind

472
00:25:51,285 --> 00:25:53,525
Speaker 2: of how we prosecute morality.

473
00:25:53,605 --> 00:25:56,885
Speaker 4: And if you say, hey, I don't know if all the.

474
00:25:56,965 --> 00:26:00,405
Speaker 2: Name calling and the shaming and the doxing and the

475
00:26:01,445 --> 00:26:04,445
Speaker 2: really dehumanizing this person and not allowing them any dignity,

476
00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:06,165
Speaker 2: I don't know. If this is how we go about this,

477
00:26:06,805 --> 00:26:11,605
Speaker 2: then you're complicit, you know, and then you're then you're

478
00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:14,165
Speaker 2: part of the problem. But I think we really need

479
00:26:14,285 --> 00:26:18,645
Speaker 2: to look at what we're doing. Your very good friend

480
00:26:18,685 --> 00:26:23,405
Speaker 2: who I admire from a fart. Walid Ali writes about

481
00:26:23,445 --> 00:26:26,885
Speaker 2: this so brilliantly. He wrote a quarterly essay called with

482
00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:32,205
Speaker 2: Scott Stevens called Uncivil Wars How contempt is corroding Democracy,

483
00:26:32,845 --> 00:26:36,085
Speaker 2: and both of them basically argued that the level of

484
00:26:36,205 --> 00:26:38,765
Speaker 2: discourse has become so.

485
00:26:40,645 --> 00:26:46,445
Speaker 4: So dysfunctional that we are not going to see the

486
00:26:46,565 --> 00:26:48,005
Speaker 4: progress that we used to.

487
00:26:48,365 --> 00:26:50,285
Speaker 3: But you know what Walid does as well, he's not

488
00:26:50,365 --> 00:26:52,925
Speaker 3: on socials because he's the most evolved person.

489
00:26:52,925 --> 00:26:56,685
Speaker 1: Well, well, there you go. But then are you evolved

490
00:26:56,805 --> 00:26:58,525
Speaker 1: if you're not evolving with the world?

491
00:26:58,645 --> 00:27:02,645
Speaker 3: I know, I know, yeah, yeah, what are you if

492
00:27:02,725 --> 00:27:06,165
Speaker 3: you're the last bastion of someone who doesn't know that

493
00:27:06,285 --> 00:27:07,125
Speaker 3: Katie Perry went to.

494
00:27:07,205 --> 00:27:09,165
Speaker 1: The y, which is so important.

495
00:27:09,645 --> 00:27:11,485
Speaker 4: It's so important to know that.

496
00:27:12,325 --> 00:27:15,245
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, you very casually tossed in when I

497
00:27:15,325 --> 00:27:17,845
Speaker 3: became editor in chief. Oh yes, yes, yeah mum and

498
00:27:17,925 --> 00:27:21,125
Speaker 3: maya Yeah. So what was the trajectory? So you and

499
00:27:21,565 --> 00:27:26,925
Speaker 3: Jesse came here, you're doing your bits of content? At

500
00:27:26,965 --> 00:27:30,325
Speaker 3: what point did you become editor in chief or was

501
00:27:30,445 --> 00:27:31,645
Speaker 3: there a career tragedy?

502
00:27:31,925 --> 00:27:37,045
Speaker 2: Yes, So we were interns who wouldn't leave. Literally, we

503
00:27:37,205 --> 00:27:40,005
Speaker 2: just wouldn't leave. We just kept turning up and then

504
00:27:41,205 --> 00:27:44,725
Speaker 2: they had an editorial assistant job, and I think maybe

505
00:27:44,805 --> 00:27:45,285
Speaker 2: I did that.

506
00:27:46,005 --> 00:27:49,365
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did that. Jesse got a she was editing video.

507
00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:52,165
Speaker 2: She has a very funny story about having to film

508
00:27:52,245 --> 00:27:55,125
Speaker 2: something with me or and completely stuffing it up. Just

509
00:27:55,645 --> 00:27:58,045
Speaker 2: no one's ever been as bad it video as Jeffy Stevens.

510
00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:02,725
Speaker 2: But we kind of eventually got into junior editorial role.

511
00:28:02,805 --> 00:28:05,965
Speaker 2: So I was editorial assistant for a few years. Then

512
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:08,165
Speaker 2: I was a content producer, which is like a writer.

513
00:28:08,685 --> 00:28:12,405
Speaker 2: Then I was a weekend editor for a couple of years,

514
00:28:12,845 --> 00:28:17,725
Speaker 2: and then the editor in chief position came up, and

515
00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:20,565
Speaker 2: that was really exciting to get that. Like I don't

516
00:28:20,565 --> 00:28:25,645
Speaker 2: think I ever imagined that I would have that opportunity,

517
00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:28,605
Speaker 2: and I didn't know if I would be you know,

518
00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:31,245
Speaker 2: like it's such a chat to manage people and to

519
00:28:31,645 --> 00:28:34,725
Speaker 2: see the editorial direction. But I did realize, and I

520
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:37,645
Speaker 2: think other people around me picked up. I love to

521
00:28:38,765 --> 00:28:40,885
Speaker 2: actually love to make decisions and I love to be

522
00:28:40,965 --> 00:28:43,605
Speaker 2: in control, and I don't I'm not.

523
00:28:45,645 --> 00:28:48,165
Speaker 4: I'm quite brave when it comes to decision making, like

524
00:28:48,285 --> 00:28:50,685
Speaker 4: quite I stand by my convinion.

525
00:28:50,805 --> 00:28:53,085
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And people kind of said, hold on that's

526
00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:56,445
Speaker 2: actually that's something that is needed in that role.

527
00:28:56,965 --> 00:28:58,845
Speaker 4: So I loved those few years.

528
00:28:58,885 --> 00:29:01,765
Speaker 2: Ab I was editor in chief for maybe three years,

529
00:29:02,125 --> 00:29:06,245
Speaker 2: and it was during COVID when so for a chunk

530
00:29:06,325 --> 00:29:09,125
Speaker 2: of it everybody was working remotely, which was interesting managing

531
00:29:09,805 --> 00:29:14,525
Speaker 2: people totally remotely. But I loved that and the single

532
00:29:14,605 --> 00:29:20,805
Speaker 2: thing or no, So I've always not always, I've never.

533
00:29:20,885 --> 00:29:23,005
Speaker 1: Actually it's true, you weren't born single.

534
00:29:24,645 --> 00:29:25,085
Speaker 3: You weren't.

535
00:29:25,285 --> 00:29:27,805
Speaker 4: And then I met my partner at seventeen, so you

536
00:29:28,045 --> 00:29:31,085
Speaker 4: were born when you were seventeen, so we've been together forever.

537
00:29:31,525 --> 00:29:35,365
Speaker 3: So we were together then Wow, and then Jesse. So

538
00:29:35,525 --> 00:29:38,845
Speaker 3: you're working side by side and I love it. I

539
00:29:38,925 --> 00:29:40,605
Speaker 3: think the first time that I ever met you too.

540
00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:44,125
Speaker 3: And it's obviously standard bit of stick that you two have,

541
00:29:44,285 --> 00:29:47,485
Speaker 3: which is that she's looks like you, but she's bigger

542
00:29:47,525 --> 00:29:50,605
Speaker 3: than you. She took all the nutrients in the wood.

543
00:29:51,845 --> 00:29:54,965
Speaker 3: And then when you left Mamma Mia, a part.

544
00:29:54,845 --> 00:29:57,165
Speaker 1: Of me thought, did she take all the nutrientts at

545
00:29:57,245 --> 00:30:02,805
Speaker 1: Mamma May as well? Would you like clear leaving because.

546
00:30:02,485 --> 00:30:06,165
Speaker 3: She starts she starts going out with the bosses, So yeah,

547
00:30:07,805 --> 00:30:12,485
Speaker 3: how was that you in that moment when you realize

548
00:30:12,525 --> 00:30:14,405
Speaker 3: that there was like a flutation that was going on

549
00:30:14,525 --> 00:30:15,285
Speaker 3: to the next level.

550
00:30:15,605 --> 00:30:19,045
Speaker 2: I have been very open about the fact that I

551
00:30:19,205 --> 00:30:21,325
Speaker 2: was against it from the start, Jesse.

552
00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:24,085
Speaker 1: For hr reasons or personal reasons.

553
00:30:24,685 --> 00:30:30,045
Speaker 2: So Jesse for yes, and Jesse was making tip for

554
00:30:30,125 --> 00:30:33,565
Speaker 2: a long time. She had made terrible romantic decisions and

555
00:30:34,605 --> 00:30:38,245
Speaker 2: that I didn't understand. And in hindsight, that's a bit

556
00:30:38,365 --> 00:30:40,805
Speaker 2: unfair because I was very lucky to have met my partner,

557
00:30:40,845 --> 00:30:44,245
Speaker 2: so I didn't go through all the early twenties dating,

558
00:30:44,605 --> 00:30:47,885
Speaker 2: getting rejected, feeling like you've got bullet holes all over you,

559
00:30:48,125 --> 00:30:49,405
Speaker 2: and having to go into a date.

560
00:30:49,845 --> 00:30:52,645
Speaker 4: So we're working at Maya.

561
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:57,885
Speaker 2: I actually trained Luca, which was really funny because training

562
00:30:57,925 --> 00:30:59,525
Speaker 2: the boss's son is terrifying.

563
00:30:59,165 --> 00:31:01,245
Speaker 4: Because I was like, what if I actually don't know

564
00:31:01,365 --> 00:31:02,085
Speaker 4: what I'm doing?

565
00:31:02,445 --> 00:31:04,845
Speaker 1: And I remember, what if he's no good? Yeah, yeah,

566
00:31:05,085 --> 00:31:07,565
Speaker 1: he's going to deliver that shit sound exactly.

567
00:31:08,405 --> 00:31:11,445
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember just being so skeptic to date. He's like,

568
00:31:11,485 --> 00:31:13,165
Speaker 4: you were very good at training me, thank you.

569
00:31:13,765 --> 00:31:17,285
Speaker 2: But so I trained him and then he and Jessie

570
00:31:17,325 --> 00:31:19,285
Speaker 2: were working just happened to be working in the same

571
00:31:19,325 --> 00:31:24,805
Speaker 2: team together and they became very very good friends and

572
00:31:25,685 --> 00:31:28,605
Speaker 2: she sort of would tell me that there were rumors

573
00:31:28,645 --> 00:31:30,765
Speaker 2: that Luke had a crush on her, and I was like, oh, nice,

574
00:31:30,885 --> 00:31:37,565
Speaker 2: but like that's irrelevant, because yeah, exactly, I'm like lovely.

575
00:31:38,285 --> 00:31:40,445
Speaker 2: And there was an age gap and I just was like,

576
00:31:40,685 --> 00:31:44,405
Speaker 2: don't go there, and I very much said age gap.

577
00:31:44,565 --> 00:31:48,605
Speaker 2: So I think the age gap is six seven years

578
00:31:48,965 --> 00:31:53,485
Speaker 2: something like that, and so I just said, I was like,

579
00:31:53,605 --> 00:31:55,885
Speaker 2: absolutely not. And I said, you know, we've worked so

580
00:31:56,085 --> 00:32:01,005
Speaker 2: hard to like both our parents teachers, we had never

581
00:32:01,165 --> 00:32:06,045
Speaker 2: been into any kind of office before we walked into moment.

582
00:32:06,165 --> 00:32:09,325
Speaker 2: Like we went from doing some work atmum and dad's

583
00:32:09,325 --> 00:32:13,285
Speaker 2: schools to working at university and so it was our

584
00:32:13,285 --> 00:32:15,725
Speaker 2: first time being in an office. And I kind of

585
00:32:15,845 --> 00:32:19,125
Speaker 2: was saying to Jess, well, I don't want anyone to

586
00:32:19,245 --> 00:32:21,805
Speaker 2: think that the only reason you're here or the only

587
00:32:21,885 --> 00:32:25,925
Speaker 2: reason I'm here is because of some connection, Like that's

588
00:32:26,005 --> 00:32:30,245
Speaker 2: not it. And so I was very adamant. And then

589
00:32:30,605 --> 00:32:31,845
Speaker 2: the more I got to know him, I was like.

590
00:32:31,885 --> 00:32:36,005
Speaker 4: Ah, he's a really good person. This is so annoying,

591
00:32:37,245 --> 00:32:40,285
Speaker 4: and he is. He's a bloody good person, and he's

592
00:32:40,405 --> 00:32:42,565
Speaker 4: body smart and creative and him and Jesse are just

593
00:32:42,925 --> 00:32:48,245
Speaker 4: their brains are just alive together. So eventually I was like, well,

594
00:32:48,725 --> 00:32:50,325
Speaker 4: she kind of went ahead and did it anywhere, and

595
00:32:50,405 --> 00:32:52,885
Speaker 4: then I said, okay, fine, And then.

596
00:32:52,805 --> 00:32:54,645
Speaker 1: You had babies similarly.

597
00:32:55,005 --> 00:32:55,205
Speaker 4: Yeah.

598
00:32:55,245 --> 00:32:58,645
Speaker 1: I think she had Luna first. Then ye had Matilda.

599
00:32:59,085 --> 00:33:00,005
Speaker 4: About six months later.

600
00:33:00,085 --> 00:33:04,325
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, which has been incredible to do all

601
00:33:04,365 --> 00:33:08,205
Speaker 2: of that together. Mostly, like I keep thinking about it, financially,

602
00:33:08,325 --> 00:33:10,965
Speaker 2: I just got everything down to me, like every like

603
00:33:11,125 --> 00:33:12,165
Speaker 2: she had a snoop, I got.

604
00:33:12,085 --> 00:33:16,285
Speaker 4: A snoop, she had all the all the I'm like,

605
00:33:16,525 --> 00:33:17,685
Speaker 4: I just had a baby for free.

606
00:33:19,765 --> 00:33:21,165
Speaker 1: Did she give you her obstitution?

607
00:33:22,085 --> 00:33:25,165
Speaker 2: No, when we're a different obstetrition, because I was like,

608
00:33:25,245 --> 00:33:29,845
Speaker 2: you know what, we should probably diverge somewhere. But having

609
00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:33,925
Speaker 2: those experiences together has been such a gift, such a gift.

610
00:33:33,925 --> 00:33:34,645
Speaker 4: I don't know what I do.

611
00:33:35,005 --> 00:33:38,725
Speaker 3: Well, because you've also, as we just said, you've you

612
00:33:38,965 --> 00:33:40,605
Speaker 3: came into the world together. Yeah.

613
00:33:40,805 --> 00:33:41,965
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've always had each other.

614
00:33:42,045 --> 00:33:46,405
Speaker 3: The twin thing is like to you obviously it's not

615
00:33:46,685 --> 00:33:50,525
Speaker 3: not a mystery, Yeah, but it is an extraordinary thing

616
00:33:51,045 --> 00:33:55,805
Speaker 3: to witness from the outside because you always have each other.

617
00:33:56,085 --> 00:33:59,365
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And it occurs to me every now and

618
00:33:59,445 --> 00:34:02,965
Speaker 2: then that probably one of the scariest things about life

619
00:34:03,085 --> 00:34:03,845
Speaker 2: is that you enter.

620
00:34:04,605 --> 00:34:09,205
Speaker 4: The world alone, and you enter every situation alone.

621
00:34:09,805 --> 00:34:13,125
Speaker 2: And Jess and I got to walk into primary school

622
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:18,005
Speaker 2: together and walk into high school together, and yeah, that bond.

623
00:34:18,085 --> 00:34:22,005
Speaker 2: It's something I feel incredibly lucky to have and gives

624
00:34:22,965 --> 00:34:25,165
Speaker 2: I think gives a lot of meaning to life to

625
00:34:25,245 --> 00:34:28,205
Speaker 2: have a witness and to have someone you're constantly in

626
00:34:28,285 --> 00:34:29,005
Speaker 2: conversation with.

627
00:34:29,365 --> 00:34:31,245
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of people feel

628
00:34:31,245 --> 00:34:32,085
Speaker 4: like that about there.

629
00:34:32,565 --> 00:34:35,605
Speaker 3: Do you have to explain yourself to each other ever?

630
00:34:35,885 --> 00:34:38,445
Speaker 3: Or is there an innate no understanding?

631
00:34:38,765 --> 00:34:46,085
Speaker 2: There's just like an emotional slash language shortcut where we

632
00:34:46,165 --> 00:34:49,285
Speaker 2: are always tapped in emotionally to where the other person is.

633
00:34:50,085 --> 00:34:54,405
Speaker 2: And I think also because through virtue of working at

634
00:34:54,445 --> 00:34:57,365
Speaker 2: the same place and having similar interests, we're kind of

635
00:34:57,525 --> 00:35:01,765
Speaker 2: very much on the same path in what we're interested

636
00:35:01,845 --> 00:35:03,605
Speaker 2: in and what kind of.

637
00:35:03,805 --> 00:35:05,885
Speaker 3: Little The reason you worked at the same place is

638
00:35:05,925 --> 00:35:07,565
Speaker 3: because you had that yeah yeah.

639
00:35:07,485 --> 00:35:10,245
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's exact.

640
00:35:10,205 --> 00:35:13,565
Speaker 3: Separate the strand no, and yet you decided to separate

641
00:35:13,605 --> 00:35:14,365
Speaker 3: the strand yes.

642
00:35:14,725 --> 00:35:14,925
Speaker 4: Yeah.

643
00:35:15,245 --> 00:35:17,605
Speaker 2: Part of it was I wanted to take myself out

644
00:35:17,645 --> 00:35:21,085
Speaker 2: of the context of the comparison to Jesse being so easy,

645
00:35:21,725 --> 00:35:26,125
Speaker 2: Like I was aware that I found that hard and

646
00:35:26,245 --> 00:35:26,805
Speaker 2: I found that.

647
00:35:27,125 --> 00:35:29,645
Speaker 1: What do you mean? I don't understand the comparison.

648
00:35:30,605 --> 00:35:33,605
Speaker 2: So our whole lives, we've been compared, like at school

649
00:35:33,765 --> 00:35:36,845
Speaker 2: and all of that little you know, little comments about

650
00:35:37,565 --> 00:35:41,245
Speaker 2: who's smarter and who's more attractive, and who's more creative

651
00:35:41,285 --> 00:35:42,725
Speaker 2: and who's better at this and that and all that,

652
00:35:43,405 --> 00:35:44,845
Speaker 2: And I was becoming.

653
00:35:44,805 --> 00:35:46,605
Speaker 1: Well, how does that lead you? Look? By the way,

654
00:35:47,245 --> 00:35:48,925
Speaker 1: how do how does the lead you look?

655
00:35:51,045 --> 00:35:52,525
Speaker 4: It changes, it changes.

656
00:35:53,005 --> 00:35:55,405
Speaker 2: We were joking the other day about how when we're

657
00:35:55,405 --> 00:35:59,165
Speaker 2: at UNI, a tutor said to us. He ran into

658
00:35:59,245 --> 00:36:01,125
Speaker 2: us and he was like, ah, I've marked your essays.

659
00:36:01,165 --> 00:36:03,325
Speaker 2: One of you can write and one of you can't. Anyway,

660
00:36:03,445 --> 00:36:05,845
Speaker 2: and then he walked away and write. But then we

661
00:36:05,925 --> 00:36:07,685
Speaker 2: got the marks back and I was the one who

662
00:36:07,725 --> 00:36:10,165
Speaker 2: could write, which we like that out because we're like,

663
00:36:10,325 --> 00:36:11,085
Speaker 2: Jesse can write.

664
00:36:11,165 --> 00:36:13,405
Speaker 4: She's got two best selling books. I think she can write.

665
00:36:13,885 --> 00:36:18,125
Speaker 2: But there was always kind of that comparison, and I think,

666
00:36:18,205 --> 00:36:22,125
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm more sensitive. Jesse's always been

667
00:36:22,125 --> 00:36:24,725
Speaker 2: a bit more resilient to it. She got the nutrients, Yeah,

668
00:36:24,765 --> 00:36:27,205
Speaker 2: she got the nutrients, and so I've got all the

669
00:36:27,325 --> 00:36:33,125
Speaker 2: bloody you know. I my psychologists say, apparently, when you're

670
00:36:33,965 --> 00:36:36,165
Speaker 2: because I was very very little when I was born,

671
00:36:36,925 --> 00:36:39,685
Speaker 2: you do have vulnerabilities to certain mental health.

672
00:36:39,845 --> 00:36:44,325
Speaker 3: Right, Oh okay, oh good to know she doesn't have

673
00:36:45,165 --> 00:36:45,965
Speaker 3: she doesn't.

674
00:36:45,645 --> 00:36:49,205
Speaker 4: Have that like certain things. But I'm like, I feel

675
00:36:49,245 --> 00:36:51,165
Speaker 4: like maybe you're more resilient to that because you got

676
00:36:51,205 --> 00:36:53,405
Speaker 4: more nutrients. But anyway, that's my theory.

677
00:36:53,805 --> 00:36:56,205
Speaker 3: But yeah, what was the moment at which you went like,

678
00:36:56,445 --> 00:36:59,725
Speaker 3: was there a moment away gradual?

679
00:37:00,245 --> 00:37:01,445
Speaker 4: I think it was a gradual.

680
00:37:01,645 --> 00:37:04,245
Speaker 2: I think I would sometimes look at what Jesse was

681
00:37:04,325 --> 00:37:06,085
Speaker 2: doing and think, oh, I want to be doing that,

682
00:37:06,525 --> 00:37:09,605
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to be in that position, like

683
00:37:09,725 --> 00:37:11,485
Speaker 2: it felt a bit icky.

684
00:37:12,005 --> 00:37:16,085
Speaker 3: And then for her, conversely, you can sometimes get it.

685
00:37:16,165 --> 00:37:17,805
Speaker 3: And this is not even a twin thing. This is

686
00:37:17,925 --> 00:37:19,605
Speaker 3: just like a close friend you might be in the

687
00:37:19,685 --> 00:37:22,245
Speaker 3: same industry or whatever. You don't want her to be

688
00:37:22,285 --> 00:37:25,845
Speaker 3: in the position where she's having to be almost apologetic

689
00:37:26,165 --> 00:37:28,965
Speaker 3: for her success because it's somehow.

690
00:37:29,085 --> 00:37:33,845
Speaker 2: Exactly or when something amazing happens for her, the fact

691
00:37:33,885 --> 00:37:37,685
Speaker 2: that it's a bittersweet because she's aware that you know

692
00:37:38,925 --> 00:37:41,685
Speaker 2: that I might be seeing that from my own perspective,

693
00:37:41,725 --> 00:37:44,045
Speaker 2: like I didn't. I was like, yuck, this just has

694
00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:48,645
Speaker 2: to be that. You know, you do your own thing

695
00:37:48,805 --> 00:37:51,805
Speaker 2: and you are brilliant, and I've got to kind of

696
00:37:51,925 --> 00:37:54,765
Speaker 2: carve my own path. And it's sort of I use

697
00:37:54,805 --> 00:37:59,325
Speaker 2: the analogy of like in a swimming race, if you're

698
00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:01,405
Speaker 2: always checking over your shoulder to see how the person

699
00:38:01,485 --> 00:38:02,965
Speaker 2: next to you is going, you're going to slow down.

700
00:38:03,445 --> 00:38:06,005
Speaker 2: And I thought, I just need to be in my

701
00:38:06,085 --> 00:38:11,205
Speaker 2: own lane and stop that. And because it's just the

702
00:38:11,365 --> 00:38:13,645
Speaker 2: environment that if you're going to work with somebody every day,

703
00:38:13,725 --> 00:38:18,285
Speaker 2: you are aware of all the things they're doing and compare.

704
00:38:18,085 --> 00:38:21,845
Speaker 1: And also you're both amazing. So it's true.

705
00:38:21,925 --> 00:38:24,685
Speaker 3: I mean, it's fine if the person's you know, five

706
00:38:24,765 --> 00:38:27,485
Speaker 3: body links behind you, yeah, yeah, yeah, but neither of

707
00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:30,285
Speaker 3: you are either going to be five body links behind. Yeah.

708
00:38:30,445 --> 00:38:37,125
Speaker 2: Like the fact is like I'm comparing myself to a

709
00:38:37,285 --> 00:38:41,525
Speaker 2: person who I'm like, objectively, you're the hardest working person

710
00:38:41,605 --> 00:38:44,685
Speaker 2: I've ever known. You're one of the smartest people I've

711
00:38:44,685 --> 00:38:47,925
Speaker 2: ever known. You're so creative, Like, oh my god.

712
00:38:48,005 --> 00:38:51,565
Speaker 4: Did that have to be my Twitter? That's so true.

713
00:38:53,045 --> 00:38:57,245
Speaker 2: So I think getting out of that comparison dynamic was important.

714
00:38:57,805 --> 00:39:04,365
Speaker 2: And also I think I wanted some creative ownership or

715
00:39:04,445 --> 00:39:06,405
Speaker 2: I just got to the point. I don't know if

716
00:39:06,405 --> 00:39:10,805
Speaker 2: it's maturity wise or just LifeWise, where you think I

717
00:39:10,965 --> 00:39:13,885
Speaker 2: want to make mistakes. I'm happy to make mistakes, but

718
00:39:13,885 --> 00:39:16,285
Speaker 2: I want them to be my mistakes. I want to

719
00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:19,845
Speaker 2: learn stuff for myself, whether that's you know, if I

720
00:39:19,925 --> 00:39:21,925
Speaker 2: want to work on a creative project, I want to

721
00:39:21,965 --> 00:39:25,005
Speaker 2: have my hands all over it and it be me

722
00:39:25,325 --> 00:39:29,085
Speaker 2: forging the outcome and if it doesn't work, although that's

723
00:39:29,125 --> 00:39:29,285
Speaker 2: on me.

724
00:39:29,485 --> 00:39:32,605
Speaker 3: It's like moving out of home, which is really the

725
00:39:32,725 --> 00:39:38,165
Speaker 3: equivalent to leave Mauma Maya the only job you had,

726
00:39:38,805 --> 00:39:42,605
Speaker 3: and to leave Jesse is really I'm going to get

727
00:39:42,645 --> 00:39:45,005
Speaker 3: a foot on and put it on the floor and

728
00:39:45,125 --> 00:39:46,325
Speaker 3: it's going to be mine.

729
00:39:46,645 --> 00:39:49,285
Speaker 1: And I might have trouble making rent exactly, but this

730
00:39:49,485 --> 00:39:50,725
Speaker 1: is what's.

731
00:39:50,365 --> 00:39:53,165
Speaker 2: Mine, and I'm going to decorate it how I want

732
00:39:53,205 --> 00:39:55,285
Speaker 2: to decorate it. And you might think it's hideous, but

733
00:39:55,325 --> 00:39:56,005
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter.

734
00:39:57,125 --> 00:39:59,605
Speaker 1: And how did you want to decorate it? By the way, I.

735
00:40:01,605 --> 00:40:03,085
Speaker 2: Kind of got to a point, and it was Weirdly,

736
00:40:03,525 --> 00:40:06,605
Speaker 2: people say that when you write a book, you are

737
00:40:06,645 --> 00:40:08,845
Speaker 2: a different person by the time you get to the end,

738
00:40:08,925 --> 00:40:12,805
Speaker 2: because if you're taking a character on an emotional journey,

739
00:40:12,845 --> 00:40:13,365
Speaker 2: you take.

740
00:40:13,205 --> 00:40:14,685
Speaker 4: Yourself through that journey you have to.

741
00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:21,405
Speaker 2: And so the through osmosis, I had kind of thought, hmm,

742
00:40:22,925 --> 00:40:27,245
Speaker 2: there's something happening in media and digital media and attention

743
00:40:27,445 --> 00:40:30,165
Speaker 2: wise and with AI and with social.

744
00:40:29,925 --> 00:40:35,685
Speaker 4: Media where I need to have a life where I

745
00:40:36,565 --> 00:40:38,045
Speaker 4: slow down and pay attention.

746
00:40:38,845 --> 00:40:41,365
Speaker 2: And so in terms of how I wanted to decorate

747
00:40:41,485 --> 00:40:47,245
Speaker 2: my metaphorical place, I wanted it to be slow and intentional,

748
00:40:47,925 --> 00:40:54,205
Speaker 2: and to build things in a way like when you

749
00:40:54,565 --> 00:40:57,685
Speaker 2: post something on social media, even when you write you

750
00:40:57,965 --> 00:41:00,525
Speaker 2: something for the Internet, it can feel like I was

751
00:41:00,605 --> 00:41:04,085
Speaker 2: addicted to the dopemine high of seeing how it performed

752
00:41:04,165 --> 00:41:07,765
Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you feel like it gets washed

753
00:41:07,765 --> 00:41:10,805
Speaker 2: away so quickly. And I thought, that's the exciting thing

754
00:41:10,805 --> 00:41:14,645
Speaker 2: about writing a book. You're like, at least this stands

755
00:41:14,725 --> 00:41:17,365
Speaker 2: the test of time in some way. And so I

756
00:41:17,565 --> 00:41:22,205
Speaker 2: basically wanted to build a career where it's the two

757
00:41:22,405 --> 00:41:25,165
Speaker 2: speeds of On the one hand, I love writing on

758
00:41:25,205 --> 00:41:28,525
Speaker 2: the Internet, and I love content and ideas and being

759
00:41:28,605 --> 00:41:31,285
Speaker 2: tapped into the zeitgeist. But on the other hand, I

760
00:41:31,445 --> 00:41:35,925
Speaker 2: wanted to write books and write TV and write stuff

761
00:41:36,205 --> 00:41:40,005
Speaker 2: that had a little bit of immunity from the impulsive

762
00:41:40,165 --> 00:41:42,005
Speaker 2: right of the online world.

763
00:41:42,125 --> 00:41:44,565
Speaker 3: And who do you have that conversation with when you've

764
00:41:44,605 --> 00:41:49,725
Speaker 3: had the realization, So obviously you're having this conversation with Rory. Yeah, yeah,

765
00:41:50,005 --> 00:41:53,205
Speaker 3: I do think in this scenario, God, do Rory and

766
00:41:53,325 --> 00:41:57,565
Speaker 3: Luca ever get together to have to debrief about.

767
00:41:57,445 --> 00:41:59,525
Speaker 4: They probably need Yeah, they probably need to.

768
00:41:59,565 --> 00:42:01,605
Speaker 2: I mean often it's the four of us and the girls,

769
00:42:02,085 --> 00:42:05,685
Speaker 2: but they yeah, they they deal with a lot of

770
00:42:05,805 --> 00:42:07,205
Speaker 2: emotional processing.

771
00:42:07,605 --> 00:42:08,485
Speaker 4: But Rory.

772
00:42:09,765 --> 00:42:13,285
Speaker 2: Has been so important for the book for decision making

773
00:42:13,405 --> 00:42:15,685
Speaker 2: all of that because he's known me for so long

774
00:42:16,205 --> 00:42:20,365
Speaker 2: and seeing all these iterations and all these you know,

775
00:42:20,485 --> 00:42:23,885
Speaker 2: maybe emotional challenges that I've had. I feel like he

776
00:42:24,005 --> 00:42:28,685
Speaker 2: knows me so well that he can actually weigh in

777
00:42:29,325 --> 00:42:32,205
Speaker 2: in ways they are aligned, yes, what I actually want.

778
00:42:33,005 --> 00:42:40,405
Speaker 4: But also had all those conversations with Jesse, and that's all.

779
00:42:40,485 --> 00:42:43,285
Speaker 1: Jesse first after Rory, where you were like, I'm thinking.

780
00:42:43,525 --> 00:42:46,005
Speaker 2: The same time, And then I'd go to Rory and say,

781
00:42:46,085 --> 00:42:48,485
Speaker 2: Jesse has Jesse has this point and go to Jesse.

782
00:42:48,285 --> 00:42:49,885
Speaker 1: And saying, oh, but Rory said this, like and Jesse

783
00:42:49,965 --> 00:42:51,205
Speaker 1: would not have wanted you to leave?

784
00:42:51,365 --> 00:42:55,925
Speaker 2: No, no, she well she didn't she didn't. She was

785
00:42:56,125 --> 00:43:01,365
Speaker 2: very much like you know, saying canceled is the highlight

786
00:43:01,405 --> 00:43:01,805
Speaker 2: of my week.

787
00:43:01,845 --> 00:43:03,325
Speaker 4: And I loved it. And I was like, me too,

788
00:43:03,565 --> 00:43:06,285
Speaker 4: me too, I love it. And it is hard to

789
00:43:06,365 --> 00:43:08,085
Speaker 4: walk away from things that you've built.

790
00:43:08,805 --> 00:43:12,485
Speaker 2: But I sort of was trying to say to her,

791
00:43:12,565 --> 00:43:15,085
Speaker 2: this is probably the one tiny part of me that

792
00:43:15,165 --> 00:43:19,805
Speaker 2: you can't understand, because this is an area of your

793
00:43:19,965 --> 00:43:27,445
Speaker 2: life where she just doesn't. She's so good at knowing

794
00:43:27,525 --> 00:43:30,165
Speaker 2: what she wants and not questioning it. It's so and

795
00:43:30,605 --> 00:43:35,125
Speaker 2: she's bolder than I am. So even I in the

796
00:43:35,245 --> 00:43:39,005
Speaker 2: book is dedicated to Jesse, and I say for showing

797
00:43:39,045 --> 00:43:41,205
Speaker 2: me I could, because I think in a lot of ways,

798
00:43:42,085 --> 00:43:45,645
Speaker 2: it's kind of like having that person who is willing

799
00:43:45,725 --> 00:43:48,765
Speaker 2: to dive in before you are so that you can

800
00:43:48,845 --> 00:43:49,765
Speaker 2: see whether it's safe.

801
00:43:50,165 --> 00:43:52,125
Speaker 4: And so she's bolder and she's braver than.

802
00:43:52,045 --> 00:43:57,245
Speaker 1: I am, and so I can't say for you to

803
00:43:57,405 --> 00:43:59,125
Speaker 1: leave was bold and braw.

804
00:43:59,205 --> 00:44:01,685
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I sort of saying to her, that's why

805
00:44:01,725 --> 00:44:02,325
Speaker 4: I need to make.

806
00:44:02,245 --> 00:44:04,365
Speaker 1: This decision, because it's I need to be brave.

807
00:44:04,565 --> 00:44:06,645
Speaker 2: I need to just I need to do it, and

808
00:44:06,765 --> 00:44:10,045
Speaker 2: I need to teach myself to be brave being out

809
00:44:10,085 --> 00:44:15,325
Speaker 2: on my own, so I think she's really she understood

810
00:44:15,365 --> 00:44:19,445
Speaker 2: it and has been. It's actually been amazing for our relationship,

811
00:44:19,605 --> 00:44:24,245
Speaker 2: having that little degree of separation where we're really curious

812
00:44:24,245 --> 00:44:27,365
Speaker 2: about each other's days, and she'll see something that I

813
00:44:27,525 --> 00:44:29,605
Speaker 2: do and think, oh, that's really cool, and I'll see

814
00:44:29,645 --> 00:44:30,805
Speaker 2: something she does and think that's cool.

815
00:44:30,845 --> 00:44:34,285
Speaker 3: And also you're still familiar with the processes she's talking

816
00:44:34,285 --> 00:44:36,885
Speaker 3: about in the people exactly although, are you coming back

817
00:44:36,925 --> 00:44:39,125
Speaker 3: to this office for the first time, Yeah, I've.

818
00:44:39,005 --> 00:44:41,605
Speaker 1: Seen how did that feel?

819
00:44:42,205 --> 00:44:44,245
Speaker 4: Amazed? Like it's really really cool.

820
00:44:44,405 --> 00:44:48,485
Speaker 2: It's sick and even you know downstairs in the lobby

821
00:44:48,525 --> 00:44:50,605
Speaker 2: there's like all those there's place Yea.

822
00:44:51,285 --> 00:44:55,685
Speaker 4: I was like, damn, this would be so hack. Yeah, like, oh,

823
00:44:55,765 --> 00:44:58,085
Speaker 4: it's so good. But at the same time, I'm very

824
00:44:58,205 --> 00:45:05,565
Speaker 4: much I very much feel like I Weirdly, as.

825
00:45:05,485 --> 00:45:10,765
Speaker 2: I was making this decision, I interviewed Depak Chopra, but

826
00:45:10,845 --> 00:45:13,685
Speaker 2: I were happy, and he talks about the concept of dharma.

827
00:45:14,045 --> 00:45:17,525
Speaker 4: You're aware of darma, like kind of like what your path.

828
00:45:17,405 --> 00:45:18,805
Speaker 1: Is not right karma?

829
00:45:19,005 --> 00:45:21,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does, it does, but like living a

830
00:45:21,805 --> 00:45:24,885
Speaker 2: dharmic life that's in alignment with your values and all

831
00:45:24,965 --> 00:45:27,885
Speaker 2: of that. And I interviewed him and I read his book.

832
00:45:28,125 --> 00:45:28,685
Speaker 1: Was he happy?

833
00:45:29,445 --> 00:45:29,645
Speaker 4: Ah?

834
00:45:30,605 --> 00:45:36,325
Speaker 2: Yes, although he has really he's very optimistic about AI.

835
00:45:36,605 --> 00:45:38,245
Speaker 2: And I wanted to challenge him about that because I

836
00:45:38,285 --> 00:45:41,085
Speaker 2: was like, how are you happy about it? But I

837
00:45:42,365 --> 00:45:45,445
Speaker 2: read all about that and weirdly, that was the time

838
00:45:45,485 --> 00:45:47,245
Speaker 2: I was making the decision to leave, and I thought,

839
00:45:48,325 --> 00:45:50,605
Speaker 2: in my Darma, Yeah, I was like, this is my.

840
00:45:52,285 --> 00:45:53,965
Speaker 4: I'm not weir weird, but this is my Darmak path.

841
00:45:54,525 --> 00:45:59,605
Speaker 1: And then when you left, what was the immediate change,

842
00:45:59,805 --> 00:46:02,325
Speaker 1: Like how did your life look? How was that for Matilda?

843
00:46:02,525 --> 00:46:05,405
Speaker 3: Your time with Matilda, which is always an attendant thing

844
00:46:05,405 --> 00:46:06,045
Speaker 3: as a parent.

845
00:46:06,325 --> 00:46:11,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, finishing the book when I kind of did a big,

846
00:46:12,165 --> 00:46:14,765
Speaker 2: like the big kind of finishing it a few months.

847
00:46:14,805 --> 00:46:16,685
Speaker 2: As you would know from writing books, sometimes you're working

848
00:46:16,725 --> 00:46:18,605
Speaker 2: on it for a really long time and then it's

849
00:46:18,645 --> 00:46:20,645
Speaker 2: crunch time. You've got to put this together and it's

850
00:46:20,685 --> 00:46:24,885
Speaker 2: got to get done. And I did that when Matilda

851
00:46:25,045 --> 00:46:29,125
Speaker 2: was five or six months, like very young. And at

852
00:46:29,325 --> 00:46:31,885
Speaker 2: that point I was going to the library seven days

853
00:46:31,925 --> 00:46:35,365
Speaker 2: a week and sitting down and writing. And the guilt

854
00:46:35,925 --> 00:46:39,565
Speaker 2: and like sadness that I felt, and I still I

855
00:46:39,645 --> 00:46:43,205
Speaker 2: remember doing it and thinking like there is no right

856
00:46:43,325 --> 00:46:48,765
Speaker 2: answer to this, Like, maybe it makes you really appreciate

857
00:46:48,925 --> 00:46:52,205
Speaker 2: you know, the people who give themselves a year to

858
00:46:52,325 --> 00:46:55,685
Speaker 2: stay at home with I'm like, hmm, maybe that's the

859
00:46:55,805 --> 00:46:56,365
Speaker 2: right thing to do.

860
00:46:56,485 --> 00:47:00,285
Speaker 3: Maybe like ing all the women, for instance, who give

861
00:47:00,325 --> 00:47:02,605
Speaker 3: themselves to it in perpetuity.

862
00:47:02,805 --> 00:47:05,205
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's extraordinary.

863
00:47:05,325 --> 00:47:07,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought there is no right way to do this,

864
00:47:08,205 --> 00:47:10,205
Speaker 2: and I have to sit in the comfortable reality that

865
00:47:10,285 --> 00:47:13,965
Speaker 2: I don't know that I know that I need to

866
00:47:14,005 --> 00:47:16,045
Speaker 2: do this for me and that I'm going to be

867
00:47:16,725 --> 00:47:21,045
Speaker 2: a really good mum to her knowing I've done the

868
00:47:21,085 --> 00:47:24,525
Speaker 2: thing I've always wanted to do. And so I was

869
00:47:24,645 --> 00:47:29,125
Speaker 2: working crazy hours when she was that young. Then left

870
00:47:29,205 --> 00:47:32,285
Speaker 2: Mum Maya, and I knew that my personality is I

871
00:47:32,445 --> 00:47:34,725
Speaker 2: need structure and routine.

872
00:47:34,445 --> 00:47:37,765
Speaker 4: Otherwise I will la la la la la years.

873
00:47:38,085 --> 00:47:40,485
Speaker 1: That's yeah, a huge thing.

874
00:47:40,805 --> 00:47:42,205
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And so how.

875
00:47:42,085 --> 00:47:43,845
Speaker 1: Did you impose that structure on yourself?

876
00:47:44,085 --> 00:47:48,125
Speaker 2: I told myself, you need to be at the library

877
00:47:48,365 --> 00:47:50,525
Speaker 2: in front of a computer at nine am every day,

878
00:47:51,285 --> 00:47:55,485
Speaker 2: otherwise the day's going to be lost. So I was

879
00:47:55,645 --> 00:47:58,445
Speaker 2: doing four days a week where I would go to

880
00:47:58,485 --> 00:48:02,845
Speaker 2: the library. The local libraries know me so well. It's hilarious.

881
00:48:03,245 --> 00:48:05,485
Speaker 2: And then now it's five days where I go and

882
00:48:05,885 --> 00:48:09,605
Speaker 2: I'm very very lucky to do a hybrid of my

883
00:48:09,765 --> 00:48:12,085
Speaker 2: mum helping out, my mother in law helping out, and

884
00:48:12,525 --> 00:48:15,285
Speaker 2: I also go to a place called Bubbadesk, which is

885
00:48:15,325 --> 00:48:17,165
Speaker 2: a coworking site with a.

886
00:48:18,725 --> 00:48:21,125
Speaker 4: And so that and that was crucial. I would do

887
00:48:21,245 --> 00:48:22,205
Speaker 4: that a few days.

888
00:48:22,525 --> 00:48:24,485
Speaker 2: When Matilda was little and I was finishing my book

889
00:48:24,925 --> 00:48:27,725
Speaker 2: and being able to write with her there, and you know,

890
00:48:27,965 --> 00:48:29,565
Speaker 2: I'd be stuck and I'd think, I think I just

891
00:48:29,605 --> 00:48:31,765
Speaker 2: need a sniff, and I'd run up, give her a sniff,

892
00:48:32,205 --> 00:48:35,205
Speaker 2: you know, feed her whatever, and then come back down.

893
00:48:35,605 --> 00:48:39,645
Speaker 2: Was great, But yeah, I very much imposed this structure

894
00:48:39,645 --> 00:48:42,245
Speaker 2: of myself. And I also told myself have you read

895
00:48:42,285 --> 00:48:45,925
Speaker 2: Atomic Habits? Oh, it's so good. Basically, the idea is

896
00:48:46,445 --> 00:48:48,085
Speaker 2: if you're at the library nine am in front of

897
00:48:48,085 --> 00:48:52,965
Speaker 2: a computer, you might procrastinate, but you can't procrastinate all day.

898
00:48:53,005 --> 00:48:54,725
Speaker 1: Like it's like thing's going to get done.

899
00:48:54,845 --> 00:48:55,045
Speaker 3: Yeah.

900
00:48:55,245 --> 00:48:57,565
Speaker 4: It's like if your goal was just turn up to

901
00:48:57,565 --> 00:48:58,445
Speaker 4: the gym, you I have to exit.

902
00:48:58,565 --> 00:48:59,605
Speaker 1: Ye, you just got to turn up.

903
00:48:59,765 --> 00:49:01,125
Speaker 4: You're probably not gonna stand.

904
00:49:01,205 --> 00:49:02,805
Speaker 1: And every time I go to do weeks, yes.

905
00:49:03,045 --> 00:49:05,205
Speaker 3: Yes, every time I go to yoga, I'm like, I

906
00:49:05,285 --> 00:49:07,525
Speaker 3: might just line on the man, yeah, and you end

907
00:49:07,605 --> 00:49:08,285
Speaker 3: up doing the class.

908
00:49:08,445 --> 00:49:10,525
Speaker 2: And of course that's kind of how I've done. The

909
00:49:10,565 --> 00:49:14,845
Speaker 2: habit thing is just turn up. Get about that, by

910
00:49:14,925 --> 00:49:18,245
Speaker 2: the way, So it's the atomic The atomic bit is

911
00:49:18,285 --> 00:49:23,205
Speaker 2: about the tininess of a of a habit that feels

912
00:49:23,285 --> 00:49:26,205
Speaker 2: so so so small, but it's actually what changes your life.

913
00:49:26,605 --> 00:49:30,365
Speaker 2: So it's actually the idea of yeah, walk in, get

914
00:49:30,405 --> 00:49:33,045
Speaker 2: yourself in front of the computer. That's the only thing

915
00:49:33,085 --> 00:49:35,045
Speaker 2: to focus on. Next minute, you've written a book, like

916
00:49:35,165 --> 00:49:42,885
Speaker 2: that's the idea of it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, insane?

917
00:49:42,965 --> 00:49:44,285
Speaker 4: And what was the what?

918
00:49:45,285 --> 00:49:48,285
Speaker 1: So there were great things about leaving?

919
00:49:48,565 --> 00:49:48,765
Speaker 4: Yeah?

920
00:49:49,085 --> 00:49:51,925
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were the hardest things about leaving? And what

921
00:49:52,045 --> 00:49:52,685
Speaker 1: have you missed?

922
00:49:52,965 --> 00:49:58,085
Speaker 2: You know what I've missed is I was nervous about

923
00:49:58,285 --> 00:50:02,205
Speaker 2: the social aspect that that being at my maya, I'm like,

924
00:50:02,325 --> 00:50:05,885
Speaker 2: I have like one hundred friends and I can walk

925
00:50:05,925 --> 00:50:08,125
Speaker 2: into that office and these people are my friends.

926
00:50:08,165 --> 00:50:11,525
Speaker 1: And other ways. Hell yes, if you don't know, someone

927
00:50:11,725 --> 00:50:13,285
Speaker 1: always knows something.

928
00:50:13,325 --> 00:50:16,525
Speaker 2: And that bouncing of ideas, like I thought, I'll really

929
00:50:16,605 --> 00:50:20,125
Speaker 2: miss that. That has been I've found that when you

930
00:50:20,565 --> 00:50:22,285
Speaker 2: go out on your own you kind of create your

931
00:50:22,285 --> 00:50:26,125
Speaker 2: own network anyway, so you're meeting people and working with people.

932
00:50:26,285 --> 00:50:30,805
Speaker 2: It's just in a different way. So women, yeah, yeah,

933
00:50:30,965 --> 00:50:33,885
Speaker 2: I find that it is a lot of women. But

934
00:50:34,765 --> 00:50:37,325
Speaker 2: the thing I'm seriously worried about is when you're in

935
00:50:37,365 --> 00:50:40,685
Speaker 2: a workplace, you observe fashion.

936
00:50:40,445 --> 00:50:42,565
Speaker 4: Trends, you see what people are there.

937
00:50:43,525 --> 00:50:46,725
Speaker 2: And I realized that I'm like, I have no barometer

938
00:50:47,565 --> 00:50:51,765
Speaker 2: without wearing, because it's not something I notice when I'm out,

939
00:50:52,325 --> 00:50:55,165
Speaker 2: Like I'm very bad at picking up on like what

940
00:50:55,325 --> 00:50:58,325
Speaker 2: jeans are we wearing, shoes we wearing, Whereas being in

941
00:50:58,365 --> 00:51:02,405
Speaker 2: the momea office, you can't avoid knowing what the fashion.

942
00:51:02,285 --> 00:51:07,605
Speaker 1: No, and GC often gets she knows she gets a cudgeling.

943
00:51:07,325 --> 00:51:11,925
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly because she's explicitly told. And also you absorb it.

944
00:51:12,405 --> 00:51:14,525
Speaker 4: And so I've said to I have to look at

945
00:51:14,605 --> 00:51:17,285
Speaker 4: Jessie and be like, hey, what jeans, what jeans are

946
00:51:17,325 --> 00:51:18,245
Speaker 4: we wearing at the moment?

947
00:51:18,405 --> 00:51:20,925
Speaker 2: What what's the cool jumper? Like I've got no idea.

948
00:51:21,205 --> 00:51:23,525
Speaker 2: So I do feel like a dag because I don't.

949
00:51:23,565 --> 00:51:26,645
Speaker 1: I don't think is that also liberating though, a little bit, Like.

950
00:51:26,685 --> 00:51:28,685
Speaker 2: I literally when I'm at the library, I'm in Traxit

951
00:51:28,725 --> 00:51:29,365
Speaker 2: pants and jumper.

952
00:51:29,445 --> 00:51:30,285
Speaker 4: And I feel very.

953
00:51:30,285 --> 00:51:35,885
Speaker 2: Myself and I feel also fashioned way, and I feel

954
00:51:36,005 --> 00:51:41,125
Speaker 2: very Steve Jobs in it. You know how he didn't

955
00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:42,285
Speaker 2: make decisions about what.

956
00:51:44,085 --> 00:51:44,325
Speaker 4: It's like.

957
00:51:44,525 --> 00:51:47,885
Speaker 2: I'm so important that I don't make decisions about what

958
00:51:47,965 --> 00:51:48,285
Speaker 2: I wear.

959
00:51:48,685 --> 00:51:50,845
Speaker 4: So I'm very that I'm I just wear my TRACKSI

960
00:51:50,925 --> 00:51:53,405
Speaker 4: pants and my jumper, and you know it's not important

961
00:51:53,405 --> 00:51:55,525
Speaker 4: to me. But yeah, no, when I do actually have

962
00:51:55,605 --> 00:51:58,045
Speaker 4: to go out, I realize I don't know what the

963
00:51:58,125 --> 00:52:01,085
Speaker 4: fashion is. I don't have a workplace.

964
00:52:01,805 --> 00:52:06,285
Speaker 3: No, that's right, and and that is the real world

965
00:52:07,285 --> 00:52:09,245
Speaker 3: that you aspired to be a part of. It exactly

966
00:52:09,445 --> 00:52:13,165
Speaker 3: where everyone looks like they've got post natal depression and

967
00:52:13,325 --> 00:52:18,005
Speaker 3: like me, their youngest kid is fifteen, exactly exactly. Okay,

968
00:52:22,485 --> 00:52:26,285
Speaker 3: after this short break, I surprise Claire with a message

969
00:52:26,325 --> 00:52:30,245
Speaker 3: from someone she's known since before birth.

970
00:52:34,845 --> 00:52:36,365
Speaker 1: I've got something I want to share with you.

971
00:52:36,525 --> 00:52:37,045
Speaker 4: Oh what is it?

972
00:52:37,605 --> 00:52:38,685
Speaker 1: Well, it's from your sister.

973
00:52:39,165 --> 00:52:41,325
Speaker 4: Oh no, oh gosh.

974
00:52:43,165 --> 00:52:43,405
Speaker 1: Yeah.

975
00:52:45,125 --> 00:52:49,085
Speaker 3: And because this is your exit interview, Oh yes, yes,

976
00:52:49,685 --> 00:52:52,485
Speaker 3: is there anything you want to say before we Oh?

977
00:52:53,725 --> 00:52:54,885
Speaker 1: What could be improved upon?

978
00:52:57,085 --> 00:53:01,405
Speaker 4: Nothing? I say, I say, mamia, bloody great, thank you?

979
00:53:01,685 --> 00:53:09,725
Speaker 3: So Hi Claire, it's me, Jesse. I probably called you

980
00:53:09,805 --> 00:53:12,805
Speaker 3: four times since you've been in this record. Kind of

981
00:53:12,885 --> 00:53:15,245
Speaker 3: rude for you not to pick up. Have you got

982
00:53:15,245 --> 00:53:15,565
Speaker 3: your phone?

983
00:53:15,565 --> 00:53:16,645
Speaker 1: I want to see if she's called you.

984
00:53:16,725 --> 00:53:19,885
Speaker 4: Actually, I actually because she was in the room next door. Yeah,

985
00:53:20,445 --> 00:53:25,445
Speaker 4: and she sent a message. Yes she has Yeah, yeah,

986
00:53:25,525 --> 00:53:27,085
Speaker 4: yeah said how was Matilda?

987
00:53:27,285 --> 00:53:33,205
Speaker 3: And I've never told you exactly how it felt when

988
00:53:33,205 --> 00:53:36,125
Speaker 3: you left Mama Mia, or rather broke up with me

989
00:53:36,365 --> 00:53:39,845
Speaker 3: because you wanted to be single, which I've always thought

990
00:53:39,965 --> 00:53:42,885
Speaker 3: is a bullshit line people used to get out of relationships.

991
00:53:44,405 --> 00:53:47,685
Speaker 3: After working together for ten years, laughing harder than we've

992
00:53:47,765 --> 00:53:51,685
Speaker 3: ever laughed, writing Married at First Sight recaps, and recording

993
00:53:51,765 --> 00:53:56,325
Speaker 3: episodes of Canceled, I felt like a desperate, pathetic girlfriend

994
00:53:56,445 --> 00:54:01,405
Speaker 3: begging not to be dumped. Alas the begging strategy has

995
00:54:01,485 --> 00:54:05,005
Speaker 3: never worked for anyone, and it didn't work this time.

996
00:54:06,325 --> 00:54:10,405
Speaker 3: Once I moved past my own selfishness, all I've felt

997
00:54:10,525 --> 00:54:15,085
Speaker 3: since is pride. Your words are my favorite to read,

998
00:54:15,765 --> 00:54:19,045
Speaker 3: and your ideas are my favorite to hear. What a

999
00:54:19,165 --> 00:54:23,205
Speaker 3: privilege to watch you from a different advantage point when

1000
00:54:23,245 --> 00:54:25,725
Speaker 3: we work together. I don't think either of us know

1001
00:54:26,085 --> 00:54:30,285
Speaker 3: or care where we begin or end. But what independence

1002
00:54:30,325 --> 00:54:34,125
Speaker 3: has probably allowed is for us to explore those edges

1003
00:54:34,845 --> 00:54:39,685
Speaker 3: and stop attributing any success to the other one. Sometimes

1004
00:54:39,725 --> 00:54:42,325
Speaker 3: you have to know your success is yours to own.

1005
00:54:43,045 --> 00:54:47,645
Speaker 3: And I hope you feel that I never wrote you

1006
00:54:47,765 --> 00:54:52,125
Speaker 3: a farewell letter, So consider this ascend off. Thank you

1007
00:54:52,245 --> 00:54:55,125
Speaker 3: for being my favorite ever colleague, and I hope we

1008
00:54:55,245 --> 00:54:59,165
Speaker 3: cross paths again one day, like tomorrow when you're in

1009
00:54:59,285 --> 00:55:03,125
Speaker 3: my house because I left the door unlocked. I love

1010
00:55:03,245 --> 00:55:05,965
Speaker 3: you more than anyone could ever love anyone.

1011
00:55:07,125 --> 00:55:12,685
Speaker 2: Oh God, I not a crier. I'm not a sentimental person.

1012
00:55:12,805 --> 00:55:15,405
Speaker 2: But bloody hell, she's a good writer, is it she

1013
00:55:15,645 --> 00:55:16,565
Speaker 2: She's very talented.

1014
00:55:16,645 --> 00:55:19,885
Speaker 1: She's a good writer. And also like she knows, she's

1015
00:55:19,965 --> 00:55:21,205
Speaker 1: got an audience to impress.

1016
00:55:21,285 --> 00:55:25,165
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very hard to impress because you know everything

1017
00:55:25,245 --> 00:55:25,725
Speaker 3: about her.

1018
00:55:26,365 --> 00:55:27,005
Speaker 1: Did you know that?

1019
00:55:28,005 --> 00:55:32,645
Speaker 2: That's the I don't know the thing about about feeling

1020
00:55:33,125 --> 00:55:35,405
Speaker 2: feeling proud. I think that we don't really say that

1021
00:55:35,485 --> 00:55:38,205
Speaker 2: to each other. And I think she's right about the

1022
00:55:38,405 --> 00:55:42,925
Speaker 2: edges that she has definitely had moments in her career

1023
00:55:43,605 --> 00:55:50,565
Speaker 2: where yeah, that are hers hers, and I feel so

1024
00:55:50,845 --> 00:55:54,805
Speaker 2: much pride. I like her books that there is no

1025
00:55:55,005 --> 00:55:57,965
Speaker 2: pride I've ever felt like reading her books because I

1026
00:55:58,165 --> 00:56:01,885
Speaker 2: just think, holy shit, ours is my sister, Like this

1027
00:56:02,085 --> 00:56:05,125
Speaker 2: is just and it's a fascinating experience because I can

1028
00:56:05,205 --> 00:56:09,045
Speaker 2: see certain references and certain inspiration, but there are other bits.

1029
00:56:08,845 --> 00:56:10,405
Speaker 1: That you don't know where it came from.

1030
00:56:10,525 --> 00:56:12,685
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know that is just you. That

1031
00:56:12,925 --> 00:56:15,085
Speaker 2: is a part of your soul that was unknown to me.

1032
00:56:15,565 --> 00:56:19,125
Speaker 2: I think the book has been a very a very

1033
00:56:19,165 --> 00:56:24,005
Speaker 2: important part of forming an identity that is separate. Has

1034
00:56:24,125 --> 00:56:27,045
Speaker 2: Jess read She has, so she was the first person

1035
00:56:27,285 --> 00:56:33,645
Speaker 2: outside of my publisher to read it. And they say

1036
00:56:33,725 --> 00:56:35,605
Speaker 2: that when you write a book, I don't know if

1037
00:56:35,605 --> 00:56:39,965
Speaker 2: you've found this, that you always you really have one reader.

1038
00:56:40,445 --> 00:56:43,525
Speaker 2: You're you're writing for one person, whether you're conscious of

1039
00:56:43,605 --> 00:56:47,045
Speaker 2: it or not, and often you don't really know who

1040
00:56:47,125 --> 00:56:48,285
Speaker 2: that is as you're writing.

1041
00:56:49,085 --> 00:56:50,605
Speaker 4: But as soon as I gave it to Jesse, oent

1042
00:56:51,085 --> 00:56:51,405
Speaker 4: it's her.

1043
00:56:51,645 --> 00:56:54,525
Speaker 2: That's her, Like she's she is the audience, She's the

1044
00:56:54,565 --> 00:56:58,285
Speaker 2: person I'm When I'm trying to write something funny, I'm

1045
00:56:58,285 --> 00:56:59,885
Speaker 2: trying to make Jesse laugh. When I'm trying to write

1046
00:56:59,885 --> 00:57:03,245
Speaker 2: something profound, I'm trying to make her feel something. And

1047
00:57:04,565 --> 00:57:09,925
Speaker 2: she has just said the absolute kindest things. And we

1048
00:57:10,005 --> 00:57:13,565
Speaker 2: also don't bullshit each other. We're not We never Jesse

1049
00:57:13,685 --> 00:57:16,085
Speaker 2: said the other day, we never tell each other we're pretty.

1050
00:57:17,965 --> 00:57:18,005
Speaker 3: Like.

1051
00:57:18,085 --> 00:57:19,925
Speaker 4: I never say you're pretty like, don't.

1052
00:57:19,965 --> 00:57:20,885
Speaker 1: We don't do that.

1053
00:57:21,245 --> 00:57:24,405
Speaker 2: And so when we do compliment each other, we really

1054
00:57:24,485 --> 00:57:27,365
Speaker 2: do mean it. So that's why something like that means

1055
00:57:27,765 --> 00:57:29,645
Speaker 2: means a lot, because we don't do that a lot.

1056
00:57:30,165 --> 00:57:34,845
Speaker 2: And with the book, she just said that the kindest,

1057
00:57:35,645 --> 00:57:38,805
Speaker 2: most moving things about it that made me feel like

1058
00:57:38,885 --> 00:57:41,405
Speaker 2: I had succeeded in writing for that reader.

1059
00:57:41,885 --> 00:57:42,085
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1060
00:57:42,125 --> 00:57:44,085
Speaker 2: That can be interesting in going through the world and thinking,

1061
00:57:44,885 --> 00:57:51,485
Speaker 2: I like every experience I have, every idea I hear,

1062
00:57:51,885 --> 00:57:53,165
Speaker 2: I really just want to.

1063
00:57:54,165 --> 00:57:54,805
Speaker 4: Share it with her.

1064
00:57:55,365 --> 00:57:58,125
Speaker 2: And sometimes I have to stop myself and think, hold on,

1065
00:57:58,245 --> 00:58:01,085
Speaker 2: is it enough that I've just had this experience. But

1066
00:58:01,165 --> 00:58:03,045
Speaker 2: I also think that's the nature of life, like you

1067
00:58:03,125 --> 00:58:03,445
Speaker 2: want to.

1068
00:58:03,445 --> 00:58:06,645
Speaker 1: Share and people dream of having that person.

1069
00:58:06,925 --> 00:58:11,405
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and relationships, I think of the life is nothing.

1070
00:58:11,445 --> 00:58:13,765
Speaker 1: And you're very good at relationships. Both of you are

1071
00:58:13,885 --> 00:58:15,085
Speaker 1: very good at relationships.

1072
00:58:15,645 --> 00:58:15,965
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1073
00:58:16,645 --> 00:58:18,645
Speaker 1: Well, you are obviously are, aren't you.

1074
00:58:19,565 --> 00:58:24,085
Speaker 4: I think I like having been a twin. I think

1075
00:58:24,125 --> 00:58:29,605
Speaker 4: it makes you really both of us say that.

1076
00:58:30,525 --> 00:58:33,965
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like I'm not particularly good one on

1077
00:58:34,165 --> 00:58:37,005
Speaker 2: one because I'm used to having another person there. I'm

1078
00:58:37,085 --> 00:58:40,645
Speaker 2: used to having Jesse that. Yes, yes, but I do

1079
00:58:40,925 --> 00:58:44,165
Speaker 2: think it makes you it's probably a little bit toxic.

1080
00:58:44,485 --> 00:58:47,285
Speaker 2: But we often give each other like social feedback. So

1081
00:58:47,605 --> 00:58:49,565
Speaker 2: after a dinner or whatever where it's been the two

1082
00:58:49,605 --> 00:58:52,165
Speaker 2: of us and somebody, we'll give feedback.

1083
00:58:51,845 --> 00:58:55,365
Speaker 1: To each other on your performance and what form does

1084
00:58:55,405 --> 00:58:55,925
Speaker 1: that haen?

1085
00:58:56,085 --> 00:58:58,605
Speaker 2: So sometimes it might be like, hey, just be careful

1086
00:58:58,685 --> 00:59:00,885
Speaker 2: when you like, you know, say this kind of thing.

1087
00:59:00,925 --> 00:59:04,045
Speaker 2: It might make somebody feel like, oh oh yeah, no, no, no,

1088
00:59:04,165 --> 00:59:06,685
Speaker 2: good point point and we won't get offended by that, right,

1089
00:59:07,045 --> 00:59:11,405
Speaker 2: But it's sort of this constant feedback which is probably

1090
00:59:11,445 --> 00:59:14,125
Speaker 2: helpful because both of us probably feel like we'd quite

1091
00:59:14,245 --> 00:59:15,125
Speaker 2: like social feedback.

1092
00:59:15,245 --> 00:59:18,805
Speaker 1: Yes, and also it's coming from someone you know loves.

1093
00:59:18,605 --> 00:59:20,765
Speaker 3: You, yes, yes, and it's not saying it's always the

1094
00:59:20,805 --> 00:59:22,405
Speaker 3: thing about criticism.

1095
00:59:22,005 --> 00:59:27,125
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, you are a delight Thank you.

1096
00:59:27,765 --> 00:59:33,245
Speaker 3: You're very missed at Mamma Maya and across the platforms,

1097
00:59:35,805 --> 00:59:41,005
Speaker 3: and I think I can speak on behalf of the

1098
00:59:41,245 --> 00:59:48,125
Speaker 3: entire million Mumma maas when I say thank you for

1099
00:59:48,245 --> 00:59:53,085
Speaker 3: your service and your goodwill and your thoughts and your

1100
00:59:53,205 --> 00:59:57,085
Speaker 3: humor and your laughter, and you're sharing yourself, thank you

1101
00:59:57,365 --> 01:00:00,645
Speaker 3: and showing yourself you and what happens next.

1102
01:00:02,485 --> 01:00:03,525
Speaker 1: You'll go in and see Jesse.

1103
01:00:03,765 --> 01:00:05,885
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I'll go see Jesse and

1104
01:00:06,085 --> 01:00:09,325
Speaker 2: we'll just be like, hey, how you going. But Lifelise,

1105
01:00:09,565 --> 01:00:12,165
Speaker 2: this book is about to come out, and I hope

1106
01:00:12,165 --> 01:00:15,285
Speaker 2: people read it, and I hope it starts a conversation,

1107
01:00:15,765 --> 01:00:19,805
Speaker 2: and I hope that there's lots more of kind of that,

1108
01:00:21,285 --> 01:00:23,885
Speaker 2: those two speeds of the deep slow work.

1109
01:00:24,245 --> 01:00:29,845
Speaker 4: Right and the faster kind of zeitgeisty work. But but yeah,

1110
01:00:30,005 --> 01:00:32,765
Speaker 4: it's a space I just I just love to be

1111
01:00:33,125 --> 01:00:36,445
Speaker 4: and I think women in media are my people.

1112
01:00:38,405 --> 01:00:42,325
Speaker 3: And Clay Stevens, you're our people, thank you, which is nice.

1113
01:00:42,405 --> 01:00:44,005
Speaker 3: It's nice to have a I mean, I know you've

1114
01:00:44,045 --> 01:00:46,205
Speaker 3: got your twin, but it's also nice to have a tribe,

1115
01:00:46,525 --> 01:00:48,645
Speaker 3: even though they could turn on you and destroy you at.

1116
01:00:48,525 --> 01:00:52,005
Speaker 4: Any moment, any moment. And that's what the book, that's

1117
01:00:52,045 --> 01:00:52,965
Speaker 4: what women are love.

1118
01:00:53,605 --> 01:00:58,685
Speaker 1: It's our prerogative to change our minds exactly. Thanks beautiful one,

1119
01:00:58,965 --> 01:01:04,285
Speaker 1: thank you. Oh my goodness.

1120
01:01:05,205 --> 01:01:08,685
Speaker 3: I love these girls, and I kind of feel bad

1121
01:01:08,805 --> 01:01:10,885
Speaker 3: because I know their twins and twins always get.

1122
01:01:12,565 --> 01:01:14,285
Speaker 1: Lumped together, but.

1123
01:01:14,405 --> 01:01:17,245
Speaker 3: The some of the whole is really not much greater

1124
01:01:17,365 --> 01:01:18,885
Speaker 3: than some of the parts because of some of the

1125
01:01:18,965 --> 01:01:23,325
Speaker 3: parts with Claire Stevens and Jesse Stevens is so remarkable.

1126
01:01:24,325 --> 01:01:27,565
Speaker 1: Claire is a brilliant writer. She's so honest.

1127
01:01:28,405 --> 01:01:32,085
Speaker 3: She's an editor, a podcaster, a screenwriter, a twin, a partner,

1128
01:01:32,165 --> 01:01:36,125
Speaker 3: a mother. But what makes her remarkable isn't just the

1129
01:01:36,285 --> 01:01:38,925
Speaker 3: role she's had, Like I said, it's the honesty with

1130
01:01:38,965 --> 01:01:42,925
Speaker 3: which she reflects on them, and the humor and the grace,

1131
01:01:43,125 --> 01:01:45,125
Speaker 3: And in the end, her story is less about what

1132
01:01:45,285 --> 01:01:50,845
Speaker 3: she does and more about who she is becoming, which

1133
01:01:50,925 --> 01:01:54,165
Speaker 3: is even more amazing. Thank you so much for listening

1134
01:01:54,245 --> 01:01:57,365
Speaker 3: to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter is

1135
01:01:57,445 --> 01:02:01,765
Speaker 3: Naima Brown. The senior producer is Breed Player. Audio production

1136
01:02:01,965 --> 01:02:05,445
Speaker 3: is by Jacob Brown, and video editing is by Josh Green.

1137
01:02:06,085 --> 01:02:10,285
Speaker 3: I am your host, Kate lane Brook. See you next week.