1 00:00:11,582 --> 00:00:14,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mea podcast. 2 00:00:15,022 --> 00:00:18,462 Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. 3 00:00:18,702 --> 00:00:22,022 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hey just a quick one 4 00:00:22,062 --> 00:00:25,022 Speaker 2: before we start. If you've ever enjoyed this podcast, we'd 5 00:00:25,022 --> 00:00:26,862 Speaker 2: love if you could stop for a moment and hit 6 00:00:26,902 --> 00:00:29,822 Speaker 2: the follow button on your app. By subscribing, you're helping 7 00:00:29,862 --> 00:00:32,742 Speaker 2: our show to grow, which means we can approach even 8 00:00:32,782 --> 00:00:36,182 Speaker 2: bigger guests, both in Australia and overseas, and bring the 9 00:00:36,262 --> 00:00:38,702 Speaker 2: very best in true crime to your ears each week. 10 00:00:45,102 --> 00:00:48,062 Speaker 2: It's four thirty pm on a Monday afternoon, two weeks 11 00:00:48,062 --> 00:00:51,782 Speaker 2: before Christmas twenty twenty two, and four young police officers 12 00:00:51,862 --> 00:00:54,942 Speaker 2: are walking side by side down a gravel driveway on 13 00:00:55,022 --> 00:00:57,382 Speaker 2: a remote property a few hours west of Brisbane. 14 00:00:57,942 --> 00:00:58,862 Speaker 1: They've been asked to do. 15 00:00:58,822 --> 00:01:01,662 Speaker 2: A missing person's check by their colleagues across the border 16 00:01:01,702 --> 00:01:06,262 Speaker 2: in New South Wales, a routine police job. Parking their 17 00:01:06,302 --> 00:01:08,902 Speaker 2: two land cruisers at the gates of the wiimbill Are address, 18 00:01:09,022 --> 00:01:12,182 Speaker 2: they've already alerted the occupant of their arrival, waving at 19 00:01:12,182 --> 00:01:15,542 Speaker 2: the security camera and honking their horns, before hopping over 20 00:01:15,582 --> 00:01:18,742 Speaker 2: the fence and heading in on foot. Towards the weatherboard 21 00:01:18,742 --> 00:01:21,462 Speaker 2: house that is just out of sight. Around the bend, 22 00:01:22,542 --> 00:01:27,662 Speaker 2: three gunshots crack through the still country air. What happens 23 00:01:27,702 --> 00:01:31,382 Speaker 2: next has Australia holding their breath as a six hour 24 00:01:31,462 --> 00:01:36,222 Speaker 2: police siege unfolds in the remote country location. By the end, 25 00:01:36,702 --> 00:01:39,662 Speaker 2: six people are dead and the crime is declared by 26 00:01:39,702 --> 00:01:44,862 Speaker 2: authorities as Australia's first Christian terror attack. The horror of 27 00:01:44,902 --> 00:01:47,942 Speaker 2: the initial shooting is only the start. In the weeks 28 00:01:47,982 --> 00:01:51,942 Speaker 2: and months to follow, a tale of conspiracy theories, religious 29 00:01:51,942 --> 00:01:57,382 Speaker 2: extremism and ambush starts to unravel a horrifying crime that 30 00:01:57,422 --> 00:02:00,942 Speaker 2: has left a deep scar in not just Queensland, but 31 00:02:01,022 --> 00:02:13,702 Speaker 2: the entire nation. I'm Jemma Bass and this is True 32 00:02:13,702 --> 00:02:17,502 Speaker 2: Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most 33 00:02:17,582 --> 00:02:20,622 Speaker 2: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 34 00:02:20,662 --> 00:02:25,782 Speaker 2: most about them. On December twelfth, twenty twenty two, Constables 35 00:02:25,942 --> 00:02:28,702 Speaker 2: Rachel Mcrowe and Matthew Arnold were killed in the line 36 00:02:28,702 --> 00:02:32,222 Speaker 2: of duty. They were twenty nine and twenty six years old. 37 00:02:33,022 --> 00:02:37,102 Speaker 2: Their colleagues, also in their twenties, Killie Broth and Randall Kirk, 38 00:02:37,342 --> 00:02:41,662 Speaker 2: narrowly escaped with their lives their murders shattered not just 39 00:02:41,742 --> 00:02:46,542 Speaker 2: their families but their colleagues. Queensland Commissioner Katerina Carroll struggled 40 00:02:46,542 --> 00:02:48,942 Speaker 2: to hold back her emotion as she addressed the media. 41 00:02:49,502 --> 00:02:52,622 Speaker 3: Losing one of our own has a profound impact on 42 00:02:52,902 --> 00:02:55,302 Speaker 3: every single officer in their families. 43 00:02:56,382 --> 00:03:01,142 Speaker 1: To lose two officers in one incident is absolutely devastating. 44 00:03:02,142 --> 00:03:05,542 Speaker 2: A neighbor, Alan Dair, also died that day, as did 45 00:03:05,582 --> 00:03:08,662 Speaker 2: the three people who were firing at them, Gareth and 46 00:03:08,742 --> 00:03:13,582 Speaker 2: Stacy Train and his brother Nathaniel. The William Bella shooting 47 00:03:13,782 --> 00:03:17,782 Speaker 2: was the deadliest day in Queensland police history. The details 48 00:03:17,822 --> 00:03:21,222 Speaker 2: of it so horrifying they sound like a Hollywood action movie. 49 00:03:21,862 --> 00:03:24,862 Speaker 2: A tale of ambush, of being hunted through the bush, 50 00:03:25,542 --> 00:03:31,462 Speaker 2: of being executed at point blank range. What officers Rachel, Matthew, 51 00:03:32,102 --> 00:03:36,102 Speaker 2: Randall and Keiley endured that afternoon had them hailed heroes 52 00:03:36,302 --> 00:03:39,902 Speaker 2: by the force. Alan was also hailed that way, but 53 00:03:39,982 --> 00:03:42,702 Speaker 2: as you'll soon hear, that's not a title. His wife 54 00:03:42,702 --> 00:03:46,862 Speaker 2: feels comfortable with the three people responsible for murdering them, 55 00:03:47,182 --> 00:03:51,342 Speaker 2: two of whom were school principles, all of them conspiracy theorists, 56 00:03:51,462 --> 00:03:54,182 Speaker 2: won't have their day in court. They were shot dead 57 00:03:54,182 --> 00:03:57,742 Speaker 2: by police six hours into the siege, but there are 58 00:03:57,782 --> 00:04:00,902 Speaker 2: still many unanswered questions from that night, which will be 59 00:04:00,902 --> 00:04:03,222 Speaker 2: examined when an inquest gets underway at the end of 60 00:04:03,222 --> 00:04:07,222 Speaker 2: this month. Nine News presenter Melissa Downs covered this story 61 00:04:07,302 --> 00:04:10,622 Speaker 2: as it unfolded in twenty twenty two, and has been 62 00:04:10,622 --> 00:04:14,902 Speaker 2: revisiting the case in a new podcast called The Ultimate Sacrifice. 63 00:04:15,302 --> 00:04:27,902 Speaker 2: To take Us Back to the Start, Melissa joins us Now, Melissa, 64 00:04:28,142 --> 00:04:31,262 Speaker 2: on December twelfth, twenty twenty two, you were preparing to 65 00:04:31,262 --> 00:04:35,222 Speaker 2: present the six pm Queensland bulletin as you usually do, 66 00:04:35,822 --> 00:04:39,782 Speaker 2: and news reports started filtering in of a shooting. Can 67 00:04:39,782 --> 00:04:41,742 Speaker 2: you remember what was going through your head in that moment? 68 00:04:42,542 --> 00:04:45,942 Speaker 1: It was one of those times where you know your 69 00:04:45,982 --> 00:04:48,582 Speaker 1: rundown is kind of set, especially as you get closer 70 00:04:48,582 --> 00:04:50,862 Speaker 1: to six o'clock. So it was around as you say, hulp, 71 00:04:50,862 --> 00:04:52,982 Speaker 1: p us five, even quarter to six, when we just 72 00:04:53,022 --> 00:04:55,902 Speaker 1: got these reports coming through there's been a shooting incident 73 00:04:56,422 --> 00:04:58,462 Speaker 1: out west three hours west of Brisbane, so I mean, 74 00:04:58,502 --> 00:04:59,942 Speaker 1: it's so far away you're not going to get to 75 00:04:59,982 --> 00:05:04,342 Speaker 1: it straight away. And three officers unaccounted for, and that 76 00:05:04,422 --> 00:05:06,102 Speaker 1: was kind of all we had to begin with. And 77 00:05:06,142 --> 00:05:10,102 Speaker 1: then as the hour of that bulletin unfolded, more details 78 00:05:10,102 --> 00:05:14,702 Speaker 1: will come through. Officer injured, officer down. There's like an 79 00:05:14,782 --> 00:05:19,662 Speaker 1: electric feeling in the newsroom that just spreads and people 80 00:05:19,782 --> 00:05:23,302 Speaker 1: know this is a big story, even the having to 81 00:05:23,342 --> 00:05:25,742 Speaker 1: get out to William Biller, which is three and a 82 00:05:25,782 --> 00:05:28,902 Speaker 1: half hours west of Brisbane, this tiny town that most 83 00:05:28,942 --> 00:05:31,102 Speaker 1: of us had never even heard of, didn't even really 84 00:05:31,102 --> 00:05:34,422 Speaker 1: know how to pronounce the name. And actually, as well 85 00:05:34,462 --> 00:05:37,062 Speaker 1: as that feeling within the newsroom of ok, how do 86 00:05:37,102 --> 00:05:39,742 Speaker 1: we cover this within the bulletin, that idea of how 87 00:05:39,742 --> 00:05:44,022 Speaker 1: are we covering this for the next twenty four hours, days, weeks. 88 00:05:44,422 --> 00:05:47,542 Speaker 1: So immediately one of our reporters, Alex Heink, who had 89 00:05:47,582 --> 00:05:49,502 Speaker 1: already been set up to do a cross into the 90 00:05:49,502 --> 00:05:52,262 Speaker 1: news on a completely different story, he got the call 91 00:05:52,302 --> 00:05:55,702 Speaker 1: at ten to six, Alex, get in the car, head west. 92 00:05:55,942 --> 00:05:58,222 Speaker 1: We don't know what's going on, but you need to go. 93 00:05:58,422 --> 00:06:00,262 Speaker 1: So he and his cameraman just packed up all their 94 00:06:00,262 --> 00:06:03,782 Speaker 1: gear and off they went, not really knowing even where 95 00:06:03,822 --> 00:06:07,942 Speaker 1: they were going. But what happened in those next five 96 00:06:08,022 --> 00:06:12,502 Speaker 1: hours was just one of the wildest stories you've ever heard. 97 00:06:12,582 --> 00:06:16,342 Speaker 1: And then what came out after that as well, the 98 00:06:16,462 --> 00:06:21,062 Speaker 1: twists and turns of the people involved. It was just remarkable. 99 00:06:21,902 --> 00:06:24,302 Speaker 2: So this is one of those stories that has stayed 100 00:06:24,302 --> 00:06:24,542 Speaker 2: with you. 101 00:06:25,702 --> 00:06:29,142 Speaker 1: Yes, there are stories that do stay with you, and 102 00:06:29,182 --> 00:06:34,142 Speaker 1: I think this is one because it just kept going. 103 00:06:34,262 --> 00:06:36,902 Speaker 1: It wasn't just what happened on that Monday, all the 104 00:06:36,942 --> 00:06:40,302 Speaker 1: Tuesday or the Wednesday. I mean here we are nearly 105 00:06:40,342 --> 00:06:44,382 Speaker 1: two years later and we're still when the coronial inquest starts, 106 00:06:44,382 --> 00:06:46,622 Speaker 1: we're going to be finding out so much more about 107 00:06:46,662 --> 00:06:49,542 Speaker 1: what happened. And it was because of the shocking nature 108 00:06:49,582 --> 00:06:55,022 Speaker 1: of it. These four young country coppers, young constables, walking 109 00:06:55,022 --> 00:06:58,262 Speaker 1: into this property just for a welfare check, so a 110 00:06:58,382 --> 00:07:01,382 Speaker 1: really routine call out, nothing out of the ordinary, not 111 00:07:01,502 --> 00:07:05,542 Speaker 1: expecting anything. And I've been out to the property. I've 112 00:07:05,542 --> 00:07:08,662 Speaker 1: seen the driveway where they would have parked, got out 113 00:07:08,662 --> 00:07:12,742 Speaker 1: of the car, started walking down this driveway birds, you know, 114 00:07:12,782 --> 00:07:16,902 Speaker 1: twittering in the trees, wind whistling through the leaves, having 115 00:07:16,982 --> 00:07:20,022 Speaker 1: a laugh. Two weeks before Christmas, Matthew Arnold, who was 116 00:07:20,022 --> 00:07:22,662 Speaker 1: one of the officers who lost his life, he only 117 00:07:22,742 --> 00:07:24,582 Speaker 1: had one more shift out West and then he was 118 00:07:24,622 --> 00:07:27,382 Speaker 1: heading into Brisbane to work with child protection, so there 119 00:07:27,382 --> 00:07:29,902 Speaker 1: would have been all that talk about him leaving heading 120 00:07:29,942 --> 00:07:32,942 Speaker 1: back to Brisbane, that exciting new chapter of his life. 121 00:07:33,342 --> 00:07:37,262 Speaker 1: And then out of nowhere, bam, they were ambushed, bullets 122 00:07:37,302 --> 00:07:42,382 Speaker 1: flying through Matthew and Rachel. Matthew died nearly instantly. Rachel, 123 00:07:42,422 --> 00:07:46,822 Speaker 1: we know, didn't die instantly. Randall Kirk, he was hit 124 00:07:46,862 --> 00:07:49,742 Speaker 1: in the leg, was able to get into the bushions, 125 00:07:49,782 --> 00:07:51,742 Speaker 1: get into a car and get back to the main road. 126 00:07:52,182 --> 00:07:55,262 Speaker 1: Keeley Bruff, who was the fourth constable, she took off 127 00:07:55,262 --> 00:07:59,222 Speaker 1: in the other direction into the scrub and so in 128 00:07:59,262 --> 00:08:04,582 Speaker 1: those moments directly after that, Rachel was lying on her back. 129 00:08:04,622 --> 00:08:07,102 Speaker 1: She was still alive. And we know this because she 130 00:08:07,582 --> 00:08:09,662 Speaker 1: had the presence of mind to switch on her body 131 00:08:09,662 --> 00:08:14,622 Speaker 1: cam and it captured a man walking towards her head 132 00:08:14,622 --> 00:08:18,542 Speaker 1: to toe camouflage. This was told to Alex Hanky, our reporter, 133 00:08:18,622 --> 00:08:21,702 Speaker 1: by police in the days following they had seen that 134 00:08:21,822 --> 00:08:24,902 Speaker 1: vision from her body cam, one of them breaking down 135 00:08:24,982 --> 00:08:29,302 Speaker 1: crying when he recounted that vision that showed looking up 136 00:08:29,342 --> 00:08:32,262 Speaker 1: into the sky, she was on her back, someone walking 137 00:08:32,262 --> 00:08:36,902 Speaker 1: over in camouflage her saying no, no, please, I've got 138 00:08:36,902 --> 00:08:39,942 Speaker 1: a family. He bent down, took her gun out of 139 00:08:39,942 --> 00:08:44,542 Speaker 1: her holster and said I've got family too and shot her. 140 00:08:45,062 --> 00:08:48,022 Speaker 1: And we don't know whether the other officers turned to 141 00:08:48,062 --> 00:08:51,062 Speaker 1: their body cams on what did they capture of that 142 00:08:51,222 --> 00:08:53,262 Speaker 1: escape So Randa was able to get out. Then Keeley 143 00:08:53,342 --> 00:08:56,502 Speaker 1: was running through the bush, hiding in the bush, and 144 00:08:56,582 --> 00:09:00,942 Speaker 1: the trains then set fire to the scrub because they 145 00:09:00,942 --> 00:09:03,742 Speaker 1: were trying to flush her out, trying to flush her 146 00:09:03,742 --> 00:09:05,342 Speaker 1: out and kill her. They were hunting her and they 147 00:09:05,342 --> 00:09:09,142 Speaker 1: were calling out to her and she rang Triple zero. 148 00:09:09,462 --> 00:09:11,182 Speaker 1: She was on the phone to triples or giving them 149 00:09:11,182 --> 00:09:14,382 Speaker 1: information about what was going on. She also texted her 150 00:09:14,422 --> 00:09:17,382 Speaker 1: family to say, I don't think I'm going to make 151 00:09:17,382 --> 00:09:20,782 Speaker 1: it out. And here was a girl who had only 152 00:09:20,822 --> 00:09:23,702 Speaker 1: graduated from the police academy eight weeks earlier. 153 00:09:24,742 --> 00:09:27,102 Speaker 2: Well, they were all four of them fairly fresh in 154 00:09:27,102 --> 00:09:28,262 Speaker 2: the police force, weren't they. 155 00:09:28,702 --> 00:09:30,862 Speaker 1: They were I think two and a half years was 156 00:09:31,302 --> 00:09:33,542 Speaker 1: the longest. I think that was Matthew, he'd been in 157 00:09:33,582 --> 00:09:36,182 Speaker 1: for two and a half years, so yes, Rachel I 158 00:09:36,182 --> 00:09:37,782 Speaker 1: think was a year and a half. They were all 159 00:09:38,502 --> 00:09:41,542 Speaker 1: young custos and that's often what happens in Queensland. I'm 160 00:09:41,542 --> 00:09:43,782 Speaker 1: not sure in other states, but often when people graduate 161 00:09:43,862 --> 00:09:46,462 Speaker 1: from the police academy, they get sent out to the country, 162 00:09:47,102 --> 00:09:50,942 Speaker 1: earn their stripes, do their time, learn policing in that environment, 163 00:09:51,582 --> 00:09:55,302 Speaker 1: and so he was kearly with eight weeks experience, put 164 00:09:55,342 --> 00:10:00,342 Speaker 1: into a situation that is you can't even really comprehend it. 165 00:10:00,382 --> 00:10:04,822 Speaker 1: And so she just stayed low, was talking on the 166 00:10:04,862 --> 00:10:07,462 Speaker 1: phone to Triple zero and was able to get out. 167 00:10:07,502 --> 00:10:09,142 Speaker 1: I mean, mind you, when she's there in the bush, 168 00:10:09,142 --> 00:10:11,462 Speaker 1: we all know what Australians scrub is like. There were 169 00:10:11,462 --> 00:10:15,382 Speaker 1: brown snakes. I'm sure there would have been spiders. I mean, 170 00:10:15,422 --> 00:10:17,422 Speaker 1: it would have been terrifying, terrifying. 171 00:10:17,662 --> 00:10:19,222 Speaker 2: It would have been getting dark as well. 172 00:10:19,422 --> 00:10:21,462 Speaker 1: Yeah, would have been getting dark. I mean it was summer, 173 00:10:21,582 --> 00:10:25,742 Speaker 1: so sunsetting a little bit later, but definitely towards dusk. 174 00:10:26,862 --> 00:10:29,902 Speaker 1: So that part of the story then leads into another 175 00:10:29,982 --> 00:10:32,822 Speaker 1: really incredible part that we don't know that much about, 176 00:10:32,862 --> 00:10:35,262 Speaker 1: but we will find out in the inquest. There were 177 00:10:35,302 --> 00:10:39,262 Speaker 1: sixteen other country coppers who once the word got out 178 00:10:39,302 --> 00:10:45,422 Speaker 1: that this had gone down, they galvanized again. With limited resources, 179 00:10:45,822 --> 00:10:49,662 Speaker 1: they were able to rescue Keeley, They got Randall and 180 00:10:49,822 --> 00:10:52,822 Speaker 1: they went into the property not really knowing what they 181 00:10:52,822 --> 00:10:56,022 Speaker 1: were facing, knowing that obviously someone was shooting and trying 182 00:10:56,022 --> 00:10:58,822 Speaker 1: to kill them and they went in and they got 183 00:10:58,862 --> 00:11:02,102 Speaker 1: the bodies of Matthew and Rachel and brought them out, 184 00:11:02,182 --> 00:11:05,862 Speaker 1: and that was just sixteen Country coppers. We haven't really 185 00:11:05,902 --> 00:11:08,982 Speaker 1: heard their story, but what we have heard is the 186 00:11:09,022 --> 00:11:13,102 Speaker 1: police commissioner talk about the bravery and the police union 187 00:11:13,102 --> 00:11:16,662 Speaker 1: president Ian Leavers talking about the bravery that those officers 188 00:11:16,742 --> 00:11:19,502 Speaker 1: showed without knowing really what they were facing, to go 189 00:11:19,542 --> 00:11:21,782 Speaker 1: back in to save their colleagues, because I guess at 190 00:11:21,782 --> 00:11:24,502 Speaker 1: that point as well, they didn't really know whether Rachel 191 00:11:24,542 --> 00:11:27,182 Speaker 1: and Matthew were alive or dead, so in their minds 192 00:11:27,422 --> 00:11:29,862 Speaker 1: they were going in there to save their colleagues. 193 00:11:31,222 --> 00:11:32,622 Speaker 3: He used to come out to be shut around the 194 00:11:32,622 --> 00:11:34,982 Speaker 3: corner there and just do something and did' you'd be 195 00:11:34,982 --> 00:11:37,302 Speaker 3: a kiss and he'd go back to mission. And I said, 196 00:11:37,462 --> 00:11:39,062 Speaker 3: you don't have to do that over time, you know, 197 00:11:41,782 --> 00:11:45,422 Speaker 3: And he said I'll do it because I want to hidden. 198 00:11:45,542 --> 00:11:47,622 Speaker 4: But that day. 199 00:11:50,422 --> 00:11:54,582 Speaker 3: Can we kiss? He well said, I'll be back. 200 00:11:57,382 --> 00:11:59,702 Speaker 2: There's another victim that we're yet to touch on, because, 201 00:11:59,742 --> 00:12:03,822 Speaker 2: as you've mentioned, Rachel and Matthew died that afternoon, another 202 00:12:03,862 --> 00:12:06,862 Speaker 2: man died. His name was Alan. Who was he and 203 00:12:07,102 --> 00:12:08,302 Speaker 2: how did he get caught up in. 204 00:12:08,302 --> 00:12:12,662 Speaker 1: This so Alan Dare was the innocent neighbor that people 205 00:12:12,782 --> 00:12:16,422 Speaker 1: might remember being talked about. He and his wife Kerry 206 00:12:16,582 --> 00:12:19,382 Speaker 1: lived on the other side of Wayne's Road, which is 207 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:21,902 Speaker 1: the road in Wimbilla where the properties are now. They're 208 00:12:21,942 --> 00:12:25,342 Speaker 1: all big properties. They're about one hundred acres big properties. 209 00:12:26,062 --> 00:12:28,462 Speaker 1: So if you go down Wayne's Road you don't see 210 00:12:28,502 --> 00:12:32,342 Speaker 1: any homes. They're set well back. They had seen the 211 00:12:32,382 --> 00:12:35,142 Speaker 1: trains once or twice, didn't really know them well. And 212 00:12:35,182 --> 00:12:38,702 Speaker 1: it was a Monday afternoon, like normal. Kerry would always 213 00:12:38,742 --> 00:12:41,102 Speaker 1: have a swim in the afternoon four point thirty she 214 00:12:41,102 --> 00:12:43,982 Speaker 1: would get out. Alan was there. He was about to 215 00:12:44,182 --> 00:12:48,102 Speaker 1: prepare dinner and they heard gunshots. Now I guess in 216 00:12:48,142 --> 00:12:51,502 Speaker 1: that area of the world you do hear gunshots. But 217 00:12:51,902 --> 00:12:56,622 Speaker 1: they then heard semi automatic gunfire and that's illegal in 218 00:12:56,902 --> 00:13:02,502 Speaker 1: Queensland in Australia. So Alan said to Kerry what's that about, 219 00:13:02,622 --> 00:13:05,262 Speaker 1: you know? And she said, well, close to Christmas, maybe 220 00:13:05,262 --> 00:13:07,022 Speaker 1: someone's got a new toy. Do you really think you 221 00:13:07,062 --> 00:13:09,982 Speaker 1: want to go and ask them what are they doing 222 00:13:09,982 --> 00:13:13,782 Speaker 1: with it? And he said no. But then I think 223 00:13:13,822 --> 00:13:16,702 Speaker 1: it was maybe an hour later they had an explosion 224 00:13:17,062 --> 00:13:22,582 Speaker 1: and they saw smoke and in that region. If a 225 00:13:22,622 --> 00:13:26,782 Speaker 1: bushfire starts, it can travel quickly. So if you see 226 00:13:27,182 --> 00:13:31,022 Speaker 1: something bushfire, whatever it is, you go and investigate, because 227 00:13:31,382 --> 00:13:33,982 Speaker 1: it may not be affecting your property right now, but 228 00:13:34,542 --> 00:13:38,702 Speaker 1: it very well could soon. So Alan rang his neighbor Vic. 229 00:13:39,262 --> 00:13:41,662 Speaker 1: The two of them went to investigate. They pulled up 230 00:13:41,662 --> 00:13:45,342 Speaker 1: outside the train's property and there was a car on fire. 231 00:13:45,542 --> 00:13:47,382 Speaker 1: That was the police car, which I don't think they 232 00:13:47,422 --> 00:13:49,422 Speaker 1: recognized as a police car at the time, it was 233 00:13:49,462 --> 00:13:52,822 Speaker 1: so engulfed in the flames. And as they were there 234 00:13:52,862 --> 00:13:57,662 Speaker 1: talking just trying to assess the situation, Vic has told 235 00:13:57,742 --> 00:14:00,822 Speaker 1: us and carry as well of what Vic had told 236 00:14:00,862 --> 00:14:05,342 Speaker 1: her that Alan looked down the driveway and said, you know, 237 00:14:05,382 --> 00:14:08,142 Speaker 1: I think there's someone down there. And at that moment 238 00:14:08,582 --> 00:14:14,582 Speaker 1: two bullets rang out. Now one hit Alan, one came 239 00:14:14,742 --> 00:14:17,662 Speaker 1: very close to hitting Vic. He dropped to the ground. 240 00:14:18,262 --> 00:14:23,022 Speaker 1: He commando crawled to see Alan. Alan had actually had 241 00:14:23,062 --> 00:14:26,742 Speaker 1: his phone out and was filming, so Vic grabbed the phone. 242 00:14:27,542 --> 00:14:31,622 Speaker 1: He did a quick check of Alan and he could 243 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:33,822 Speaker 1: see there was blood in his back, so he knew 244 00:14:33,862 --> 00:14:36,382 Speaker 1: he'd been hit, and he then crawled out, found his 245 00:14:36,422 --> 00:14:38,462 Speaker 1: way back to his cob bike and got back to 246 00:14:38,542 --> 00:14:40,862 Speaker 1: Kerry and said Al's in a bad way. We need 247 00:14:40,902 --> 00:14:43,742 Speaker 1: to get out of here now. That will come into 248 00:14:43,822 --> 00:14:49,022 Speaker 1: question at the inquest because Kerrie one of her biggest 249 00:14:49,342 --> 00:14:52,822 Speaker 1: questions about what happened on that day is when Allan 250 00:14:52,862 --> 00:14:55,982 Speaker 1: and Vic went to investigate, that was at least an hour, 251 00:14:56,142 --> 00:15:00,662 Speaker 1: if not more, after the initial shots were fired. Why 252 00:15:00,662 --> 00:15:04,182 Speaker 1: weren't they warned? Why wasn't the community? And Carrie claims 253 00:15:04,302 --> 00:15:06,542 Speaker 1: that she was on the phone with Triple Zero when 254 00:15:06,582 --> 00:15:09,422 Speaker 1: Alan went to investigate. She got onto Triple zero and said, 255 00:15:09,942 --> 00:15:13,622 Speaker 1: we think so thing's going on there, And she says 256 00:15:13,702 --> 00:15:17,342 Speaker 1: she wasn't warned about what went on, and she's really angry. 257 00:15:17,502 --> 00:15:20,542 Speaker 1: She and Alan they'd been married just shy of twenty 258 00:15:20,582 --> 00:15:23,222 Speaker 1: six years. I think their anniversary was two or three 259 00:15:23,302 --> 00:15:26,462 Speaker 1: days after he was killed. They'd been in willim Bella 260 00:15:26,502 --> 00:15:28,102 Speaker 1: for three years. They've just moved out there. That was 261 00:15:28,142 --> 00:15:30,942 Speaker 1: their retirement, it was their dream home. They built what 262 00:15:31,222 --> 00:15:33,582 Speaker 1: was their dream home, and they were living their life. 263 00:15:34,102 --> 00:15:36,582 Speaker 1: And to have all of that snatched away from her, 264 00:15:37,462 --> 00:15:38,982 Speaker 1: she's angry and she wants answers. 265 00:15:39,742 --> 00:15:43,422 Speaker 2: Well, that's not the only thing she's angry about. In 266 00:15:43,462 --> 00:15:46,782 Speaker 2: your interviews with her, she shares a lot of different 267 00:15:46,822 --> 00:15:49,382 Speaker 2: areas that she's angry at, one in particular being that 268 00:15:49,742 --> 00:15:52,942 Speaker 2: her husband's body wasn't recovered alongside those police officers. 269 00:15:53,302 --> 00:15:53,462 Speaker 4: Yeah. 270 00:15:53,542 --> 00:15:56,182 Speaker 1: Look, it's one of those things. Police may say they 271 00:15:56,182 --> 00:16:00,622 Speaker 1: have protocols, but for Kerry to be out on that 272 00:16:00,702 --> 00:16:02,982 Speaker 1: dirt road at the command center where all the other 273 00:16:03,022 --> 00:16:05,982 Speaker 1: police were, as we've said, they were able to get 274 00:16:06,022 --> 00:16:09,462 Speaker 1: Matthew and Rachel out and rightly so, but Alan's body 275 00:16:09,542 --> 00:16:12,942 Speaker 1: was left there on the dirt road for thirteen hours, 276 00:16:13,262 --> 00:16:17,182 Speaker 1: covered by a tarp, and it wasn't until daybreak that 277 00:16:17,302 --> 00:16:20,502 Speaker 1: she was there, looked down the road, saw the tap 278 00:16:20,542 --> 00:16:24,182 Speaker 1: on the road and realized that was Allan. And our 279 00:16:24,222 --> 00:16:28,342 Speaker 1: reporter Alex Heinke was with her at that moment and 280 00:16:29,342 --> 00:16:33,062 Speaker 1: to hear him and to hear Kerry describe that moment 281 00:16:33,502 --> 00:16:36,782 Speaker 1: that she realized it was him, you know, she says, 282 00:16:37,262 --> 00:16:39,262 Speaker 1: and I've heard it before, when people are in that 283 00:16:40,222 --> 00:16:44,222 Speaker 1: most extreme state of shock, it's like their brain gets 284 00:16:44,262 --> 00:16:47,222 Speaker 1: split into you know, their mouth doesn't work properly, she says, 285 00:16:47,222 --> 00:16:49,782 Speaker 1: her legs weren't working properly. You know, it just all 286 00:16:50,182 --> 00:16:54,022 Speaker 1: explodes in their brain. And Alex being there seeing that, 287 00:16:54,342 --> 00:16:56,782 Speaker 1: I think this is also an interesting part often of 288 00:16:56,782 --> 00:16:59,222 Speaker 1: all these stories as well, is you know, for reporters 289 00:16:59,262 --> 00:17:02,142 Speaker 1: who are there, how do you tell that story? It's 290 00:17:02,142 --> 00:17:04,702 Speaker 1: so difficult to do. And also here again we are 291 00:17:05,022 --> 00:17:07,222 Speaker 1: years down the track, and when we interviewed Alex, I 292 00:17:07,222 --> 00:17:10,382 Speaker 1: mean he was close to tears recounting that and recounting 293 00:17:10,502 --> 00:17:15,422 Speaker 1: his further conversations with Kerrie. Because you become friends with 294 00:17:15,582 --> 00:17:19,742 Speaker 1: people in their darkest moments and their heartbreak, you feel it. 295 00:17:20,542 --> 00:17:22,902 Speaker 2: And I guess you don't want to take away from 296 00:17:23,222 --> 00:17:25,982 Speaker 2: the heroes, the police officers that put their lives on 297 00:17:26,022 --> 00:17:29,382 Speaker 2: the line to save their friends, the Rachel Matthew, Randal Keeley, 298 00:17:29,422 --> 00:17:32,862 Speaker 2: all of their experiences, but Kerry had an experience too. 299 00:17:33,502 --> 00:17:35,462 Speaker 1: That's right. I mean she will be there at the inquiry. 300 00:17:35,502 --> 00:17:37,222 Speaker 1: She's going to be there every day. She wants to 301 00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:40,502 Speaker 1: know and she wants at the very least an acknowledgment 302 00:17:41,142 --> 00:17:46,382 Speaker 1: that one, they weren't given the warnings that they should 303 00:17:46,382 --> 00:17:49,462 Speaker 1: have been, they weren't advised, and also was it right 304 00:17:49,542 --> 00:17:51,622 Speaker 1: for his body to be left there all that time? 305 00:17:52,102 --> 00:17:54,702 Speaker 1: And I don't think you can blame her for wanting that. 306 00:17:59,662 --> 00:18:04,262 Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jimmy bath up. 307 00:18:04,302 --> 00:18:07,182 Speaker 2: Next we explore what led the Train family to commit 308 00:18:07,302 --> 00:18:16,462 Speaker 2: such a heinous crime. I want to backtrack a little 309 00:18:16,462 --> 00:18:20,942 Speaker 2: bit because the deaths of Rachel, Matthew and Alan happened 310 00:18:21,022 --> 00:18:24,982 Speaker 2: quite quickly, but this siege actually went on for many, 311 00:18:25,022 --> 00:18:28,862 Speaker 2: many hours. How did the rest of the night unfold? 312 00:18:29,462 --> 00:18:31,582 Speaker 1: So we had that first stage, I guess. So we 313 00:18:31,622 --> 00:18:34,062 Speaker 1: had the ambush. Then there's the sixteen police officers, the 314 00:18:34,062 --> 00:18:39,902 Speaker 1: country coppers going in, extracting their colleagues, and basically then 315 00:18:39,942 --> 00:18:43,062 Speaker 1: they were holding the situation a couple of hours because 316 00:18:43,062 --> 00:18:46,662 Speaker 1: they had to wait for the specialist officers coming from Brisbane. 317 00:18:46,902 --> 00:18:50,342 Speaker 1: There were two police choppers by the time they arrived. 318 00:18:50,782 --> 00:18:55,022 Speaker 1: They then moved in and with absolute precision, they had 319 00:18:55,022 --> 00:18:58,022 Speaker 1: a plan. The helicopter poll air up in the sky 320 00:18:58,502 --> 00:19:02,182 Speaker 1: they could see where Gareth, Nathaniel and Stacy Train were 321 00:19:02,222 --> 00:19:04,822 Speaker 1: on the property and they were relaying that to the 322 00:19:04,822 --> 00:19:08,782 Speaker 1: officers on the ground. Oh now, I never read how 323 00:19:08,782 --> 00:19:09,062 Speaker 1: I am. 324 00:19:10,502 --> 00:19:14,902 Speaker 5: Want guy. 325 00:19:15,662 --> 00:19:18,942 Speaker 1: That gunfire, though, went for about five hours, and I 326 00:19:18,982 --> 00:19:23,662 Speaker 1: think in that time police were assessing the situation, figuring 327 00:19:23,702 --> 00:19:26,622 Speaker 1: out how we're going to deal with this. But once 328 00:19:26,702 --> 00:19:30,342 Speaker 1: they decided okay, we're taking them down, they're not giving in. 329 00:19:31,022 --> 00:19:34,822 Speaker 1: The three trains were killed within minutes and that was it. 330 00:19:35,662 --> 00:19:37,422 Speaker 2: So basically they were trying to work out whether they 331 00:19:37,422 --> 00:19:40,342 Speaker 2: could negotiate first and save their lives as well, and 332 00:19:40,382 --> 00:19:42,462 Speaker 2: then they decided that that wasn't going to happen. 333 00:19:42,822 --> 00:19:45,342 Speaker 1: I can only assume that, and again, this really is 334 00:19:45,382 --> 00:19:48,582 Speaker 1: still a story that's unfolding. That's the conclusion that you 335 00:19:48,662 --> 00:19:52,902 Speaker 1: might draw, because once they decided this is the end 336 00:19:53,382 --> 00:19:55,742 Speaker 1: for the trains, it was done in minutes. 337 00:19:56,902 --> 00:19:59,382 Speaker 2: I think we need to focus in on the trains 338 00:19:59,382 --> 00:20:02,462 Speaker 2: a bit more. We haven't spoken about them, and I 339 00:20:02,462 --> 00:20:04,422 Speaker 2: want to start with the overview because obviously there's so 340 00:20:04,542 --> 00:20:07,742 Speaker 2: much to dig into. But they were teachers and they 341 00:20:07,742 --> 00:20:09,982 Speaker 2: were also in a bit of a love triangle. 342 00:20:10,022 --> 00:20:10,702 Speaker 1: Let's start there. 343 00:20:10,782 --> 00:20:13,662 Speaker 2: Let's start with their lives on the surferst before we 344 00:20:13,742 --> 00:20:14,182 Speaker 2: dig in. 345 00:20:14,342 --> 00:20:17,422 Speaker 1: Yes, and they were some of the details that were 346 00:20:17,462 --> 00:20:19,742 Speaker 1: coming out in the days following that just made what 347 00:20:19,822 --> 00:20:23,142 Speaker 1: was already, you know, a mind blowing story even stranger. 348 00:20:23,982 --> 00:20:28,142 Speaker 1: So Nathaniel and Stacy were married. First they had two children, 349 00:20:28,222 --> 00:20:33,102 Speaker 1: Madeline and Aiden, but when they were toddlers young, Nathaniel 350 00:20:33,142 --> 00:20:36,622 Speaker 1: and Stacy split and she then married Gareth, the older 351 00:20:36,622 --> 00:20:41,382 Speaker 1: brother now, Gareth and Nathaniel had been raised their family. 352 00:20:41,462 --> 00:20:45,302 Speaker 1: Their father was a Baptist minister, so they had been 353 00:20:45,382 --> 00:20:49,462 Speaker 1: raised in a very Christian upbringing. Their father spoke after 354 00:20:49,502 --> 00:20:52,422 Speaker 1: the event and said that he hadn't seen the boys 355 00:20:52,422 --> 00:20:54,982 Speaker 1: since their mid twenties and they were in their mid 356 00:20:55,062 --> 00:20:58,222 Speaker 1: forties when this all went down, so he had had 357 00:20:58,262 --> 00:21:02,382 Speaker 1: nothing to do with them, and he talked about Gareth 358 00:21:02,782 --> 00:21:07,622 Speaker 1: as always having been a difficult child, volatile, obsessed with guns. 359 00:21:08,222 --> 00:21:11,862 Speaker 1: So from there they lived their own lives. In Nathaniel 360 00:21:12,182 --> 00:21:16,982 Speaker 1: he was a principal of a school. Stacy was a 361 00:21:17,102 --> 00:21:21,302 Speaker 1: teacher at Tara, which is one of the local towns 362 00:21:21,662 --> 00:21:25,222 Speaker 1: near Wimbilla, so she was teaching in the area, but 363 00:21:25,262 --> 00:21:27,462 Speaker 1: at that point she was living with Gareth. The older brother. 364 00:21:27,822 --> 00:21:30,542 Speaker 1: Nathaniel had moved down to Walgot in northern New South 365 00:21:30,542 --> 00:21:32,702 Speaker 1: Wales and he was teaching at a school there, and 366 00:21:32,742 --> 00:21:36,742 Speaker 1: he had also taught up in North Queensland, and people 367 00:21:36,782 --> 00:21:39,622 Speaker 1: who knew him as a principal as a teacher talked 368 00:21:39,662 --> 00:21:47,022 Speaker 1: about a well respected, caring educator who was very interested 369 00:21:47,062 --> 00:21:51,622 Speaker 1: and concerned for his students and Stacy as well. And 370 00:21:51,662 --> 00:21:55,462 Speaker 1: Gareth we know that he was a conspiracy theorist he 371 00:21:55,622 --> 00:21:59,382 Speaker 1: often had been Madeline, who then was raised by Gareth 372 00:21:59,542 --> 00:22:04,622 Speaker 1: and Stacy, who referred to Gary as dad. She spoke 373 00:22:04,662 --> 00:22:07,382 Speaker 1: about him and said he would go down rabbit holes, 374 00:22:07,582 --> 00:22:10,902 Speaker 1: but not to a point where she was really really worried. 375 00:22:10,942 --> 00:22:13,782 Speaker 1: But he did follow these theories and whatnot. But I 376 00:22:13,822 --> 00:22:17,022 Speaker 1: think it was through COVID where a lot of people 377 00:22:17,062 --> 00:22:21,462 Speaker 1: were affected badly. Now Nathaniel had a heart attack and 378 00:22:22,262 --> 00:22:25,982 Speaker 1: he also didn't want to be vaccinated. So he finished 379 00:22:26,022 --> 00:22:29,062 Speaker 1: up his job in northern New South Wales and was 380 00:22:29,382 --> 00:22:32,382 Speaker 1: very angry and that seemed to the health issues and 381 00:22:32,862 --> 00:22:36,782 Speaker 1: not wanting to get vaccinated, and it sent him down 382 00:22:36,782 --> 00:22:37,582 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole. 383 00:22:38,262 --> 00:22:41,462 Speaker 2: Because that was a requirement of teachers, wasn't it. They 384 00:22:41,502 --> 00:22:43,022 Speaker 2: had to be vaccinated to teach. 385 00:22:43,422 --> 00:22:47,462 Speaker 1: That's correct, you had to be vaccinated. So he started 386 00:22:47,502 --> 00:22:50,182 Speaker 1: down this path. He fired off a lot of complaints 387 00:22:50,222 --> 00:22:54,902 Speaker 1: to the education department about all sorts of things, and 388 00:22:55,142 --> 00:22:58,462 Speaker 1: Stacy also lost her job because she wouldn't get vaccinated. 389 00:22:58,982 --> 00:23:02,182 Speaker 1: Once he left the school, he then decided he wanted 390 00:23:02,222 --> 00:23:05,182 Speaker 1: to come up to Queensland to see his kids, but 391 00:23:05,262 --> 00:23:08,182 Speaker 1: of course, because he wasn't vaccinated, and because during COVID 392 00:23:08,742 --> 00:23:12,302 Speaker 1: Queensland considered New South Wales a COVID hotspot. You weren't 393 00:23:12,302 --> 00:23:14,662 Speaker 1: allowed to come into Queensland unless you had been vaccinated, 394 00:23:14,742 --> 00:23:19,502 Speaker 1: and he wasn't vaccinated. So he through a Gunderwindy crossing, 395 00:23:19,502 --> 00:23:22,182 Speaker 1: which again is sort of way out west. He broke 396 00:23:22,302 --> 00:23:26,342 Speaker 1: through a barrier illegally entered Queensland and made his way 397 00:23:26,462 --> 00:23:30,302 Speaker 1: to Gareth and Stacy, where he was for about a year. 398 00:23:30,582 --> 00:23:33,462 Speaker 1: And we know that police did look for him once before, 399 00:23:33,742 --> 00:23:37,062 Speaker 1: about a year before the incident, and they didn't find him. 400 00:23:37,342 --> 00:23:40,902 Speaker 1: No red flags were raised about that. But then for 401 00:23:40,982 --> 00:23:43,542 Speaker 1: a year the three of them lived in that two 402 00:23:43,582 --> 00:23:49,422 Speaker 1: bedroom Queenslander and hardly anyone saw them. I mean you 403 00:23:49,502 --> 00:23:52,502 Speaker 1: think Kerry lived across the road and yes it's not 404 00:23:52,542 --> 00:23:55,022 Speaker 1: like a normal neighborhood, but she only saw them a 405 00:23:55,062 --> 00:23:58,822 Speaker 1: couple of times, maybe waved at them at the letterbox. 406 00:24:00,262 --> 00:24:05,902 Speaker 1: And what happened was they found an online community that 407 00:24:06,022 --> 00:24:11,902 Speaker 1: became their community, and that's when they just went down. 408 00:24:12,102 --> 00:24:16,582 Speaker 1: There are terms like premillennialism, accelerationism. I don't know if 409 00:24:16,622 --> 00:24:19,222 Speaker 1: you've heard of what does that even mean? So pre 410 00:24:19,302 --> 00:24:22,782 Speaker 1: millennialism and this is in broad terms. They believe in 411 00:24:22,822 --> 00:24:26,102 Speaker 1: the second coming of Christ and that he will come 412 00:24:26,142 --> 00:24:30,502 Speaker 1: back and rule for a thousand years. Accelerationism is the 413 00:24:30,542 --> 00:24:37,542 Speaker 1: ideology that activists are encouraged to sow chaos and problems 414 00:24:37,782 --> 00:24:42,822 Speaker 1: to accelerate society's demise because governments are so corrupt that 415 00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:49,142 Speaker 1: they need to help destabilize everything to create chaos and 416 00:24:49,422 --> 00:24:54,582 Speaker 1: accelerate the change that needs to happen. So they started 417 00:24:54,822 --> 00:24:59,862 Speaker 1: going down some fairly dark pathways and that's where police 418 00:24:59,982 --> 00:25:03,822 Speaker 1: claim they met Donald Day Junior. You know, this was 419 00:25:03,862 --> 00:25:07,942 Speaker 1: then another facet of this story, which was also mind blowing. 420 00:25:08,542 --> 00:25:11,542 Speaker 1: So this happened then a year after the sh queens 421 00:25:11,542 --> 00:25:14,422 Speaker 1: and police were in America with the FBI. They had 422 00:25:14,462 --> 00:25:17,822 Speaker 1: been following leeds and they arrested a man called Donald 423 00:25:17,902 --> 00:25:20,782 Speaker 1: Day Junior in Arizona and he has been charged with 424 00:25:20,862 --> 00:25:24,542 Speaker 1: inciting the trains to behave the way they did. 425 00:25:25,182 --> 00:25:26,862 Speaker 2: How could he do that from the other side of 426 00:25:26,902 --> 00:25:27,342 Speaker 2: the world. 427 00:25:27,662 --> 00:25:31,742 Speaker 1: They had an online relationship, They were sharing videos, they 428 00:25:31,742 --> 00:25:36,382 Speaker 1: were commenting on videos. Stacy and Gareth on the night 429 00:25:36,502 --> 00:25:40,742 Speaker 1: of the shootings, after the initial ambush, they recorded a 430 00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:44,142 Speaker 1: video and at the very end of the video they say, 431 00:25:44,742 --> 00:25:46,582 Speaker 1: don We'll see you later. We'll see you at home. 432 00:25:46,742 --> 00:25:51,182 Speaker 1: And Stacy says love you Don oh, and everyone was like, Don, 433 00:25:51,342 --> 00:25:54,262 Speaker 1: what does that refer to? That's weird? What's that? A 434 00:25:54,342 --> 00:25:57,702 Speaker 1: year later we finally found out Don was Donald Day 435 00:25:57,782 --> 00:26:02,782 Speaker 1: Junior in America, Arizona, also a Christian extremist with more 436 00:26:02,782 --> 00:26:05,942 Speaker 1: things to his credit, who has now been charged. He's 437 00:26:05,982 --> 00:26:09,462 Speaker 1: facing five federal charges in the US. His case will 438 00:26:09,502 --> 00:26:13,542 Speaker 1: happen later in the year. He's been charged with helping 439 00:26:13,622 --> 00:26:18,662 Speaker 1: to lead the trains into this mindset where police officers 440 00:26:18,702 --> 00:26:24,102 Speaker 1: authority were considered devils demons, that you had to fight 441 00:26:24,142 --> 00:26:28,502 Speaker 1: for your rights with virtuous violence, that's what they called it. 442 00:26:29,622 --> 00:26:34,302 Speaker 2: So on that day of the shooting. From this online chat, 443 00:26:34,382 --> 00:26:37,982 Speaker 2: can we ascertain that they wanted police to come to 444 00:26:38,022 --> 00:26:39,822 Speaker 2: their property so that they could kill them. 445 00:26:40,102 --> 00:26:42,462 Speaker 1: This is one of the answers that we're hoping will 446 00:26:42,462 --> 00:26:45,342 Speaker 1: finally come out at the inquest. They were set up 447 00:26:45,542 --> 00:26:50,182 Speaker 1: definitely for an ambush. I mean the property had weapons, 448 00:26:50,302 --> 00:26:53,462 Speaker 1: they had camouflage spots, they had mirrors set up so 449 00:26:53,462 --> 00:26:56,302 Speaker 1: that they could see what was going on. There were radios, 450 00:26:56,342 --> 00:26:59,302 Speaker 1: there was a trapdoor in the house. There were thousands 451 00:26:59,462 --> 00:27:02,702 Speaker 1: and thousands of rounds of ammunition on that property, high 452 00:27:02,782 --> 00:27:06,462 Speaker 1: powered rifles, semi automatics, you know, things that could fire rapidly. 453 00:27:07,062 --> 00:27:11,542 Speaker 1: They were ready for armageddon. Let's say, were they just waiting? 454 00:27:11,782 --> 00:27:16,142 Speaker 1: Did they have an idea that it would at some 455 00:27:16,262 --> 00:27:19,422 Speaker 1: point happen, that at some point someone would come looking 456 00:27:19,462 --> 00:27:22,262 Speaker 1: for Nathaniel. We hope that gets answered, and I'm sure 457 00:27:22,462 --> 00:27:25,502 Speaker 1: the families of all of those involved, that's what they 458 00:27:25,542 --> 00:27:25,942 Speaker 1: want to know. 459 00:27:39,022 --> 00:27:42,422 Speaker 5: As a triplet, matt was the older brother by just 460 00:27:42,462 --> 00:27:45,742 Speaker 5: a few minutes, but this made him no less of 461 00:27:45,782 --> 00:27:50,782 Speaker 5: a big brother to his siblings. He was also a protector, 462 00:27:51,902 --> 00:27:55,902 Speaker 5: a leader, and a big brother to all those who 463 00:27:55,942 --> 00:27:56,662 Speaker 5: knew him. 464 00:27:57,022 --> 00:27:59,902 Speaker 4: Rach was simply one of a kind. She could literally 465 00:28:00,022 --> 00:28:03,422 Speaker 4: light up any room on the darkest of days with 466 00:28:03,542 --> 00:28:08,862 Speaker 4: her beautiful, infectious smile and those pearly white teeth. She 467 00:28:09,022 --> 00:28:11,622 Speaker 4: was the kindest and most He's a positive person. 468 00:28:11,662 --> 00:28:11,902 Speaker 5: I know. 469 00:28:12,622 --> 00:28:15,902 Speaker 4: She had the purest of souls and the warmest of hearts. 470 00:28:16,502 --> 00:28:18,102 Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit more about Rachel 471 00:28:18,102 --> 00:28:21,422 Speaker 2: and Matthew. They were given a memorial service. There were 472 00:28:21,502 --> 00:28:27,222 Speaker 2: thousands of people there. The grief that was felt in 473 00:28:27,302 --> 00:28:30,502 Speaker 2: those services and in the weeks afterwards, can you capture 474 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:33,382 Speaker 2: that for us because you covered it in detail on 475 00:28:33,462 --> 00:28:33,942 Speaker 2: the news. 476 00:28:35,942 --> 00:28:42,062 Speaker 1: It's just the senselessness. I think of these beautiful young 477 00:28:42,102 --> 00:28:47,422 Speaker 1: people really at the cusp of adulthood and beginning this life. 478 00:28:47,422 --> 00:28:50,902 Speaker 1: And they were both very well respected within the police force. 479 00:28:51,462 --> 00:28:54,182 Speaker 1: Rachel described as one of the police officers that the 480 00:28:54,222 --> 00:28:59,582 Speaker 1: world needs now and well loved by their families. Rachel's 481 00:28:59,782 --> 00:29:01,782 Speaker 1: sister and her mother, they were kind of known as 482 00:29:01,822 --> 00:29:07,302 Speaker 1: the McCrow girls, super close. Matthew was a triplet his parents. 483 00:29:07,342 --> 00:29:09,582 Speaker 1: He was coming home, as we said earlier, to spend 484 00:29:09,622 --> 00:29:13,502 Speaker 1: Christmas with them in Brisbane and start his new path 485 00:29:13,582 --> 00:29:17,022 Speaker 1: within queens and police. And I think it was also 486 00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:20,982 Speaker 1: the fact that well it was the worst police shooting 487 00:29:21,022 --> 00:29:26,302 Speaker 1: in Queensland. It was Australia's first Christian terror attack. People 488 00:29:26,302 --> 00:29:29,502 Speaker 1: felt like this doesn't happen in Australia. And of course 489 00:29:29,542 --> 00:29:31,582 Speaker 1: you could see the grief of the families of the 490 00:29:31,582 --> 00:29:34,182 Speaker 1: police force because as well, that is that thing of 491 00:29:34,262 --> 00:29:37,702 Speaker 1: it was a routine call out. Every day, our police 492 00:29:37,702 --> 00:29:43,902 Speaker 1: officers and emergency services go to routine callouts and much worse. 493 00:29:44,142 --> 00:29:47,982 Speaker 1: But to think that their lives can be taken so quickly, 494 00:29:48,222 --> 00:29:52,742 Speaker 1: so unexpectedly, it shocked everyone. I think we all felt 495 00:29:52,742 --> 00:29:55,782 Speaker 1: it because we just felt the fragility of life. 496 00:29:56,502 --> 00:30:00,462 Speaker 2: What about Randall and Keighley, they went through something horrific 497 00:30:00,502 --> 00:30:04,262 Speaker 2: that day. I can only imagine mentally, that must be 498 00:30:04,342 --> 00:30:06,302 Speaker 2: a lot to get through, especially Keighley who was in 499 00:30:06,342 --> 00:30:10,502 Speaker 2: that bush for two hours, running for her life. So 500 00:30:10,582 --> 00:30:12,742 Speaker 2: much about what their lives have been like since. 501 00:30:13,382 --> 00:30:17,422 Speaker 1: For Kearly, we know that they have asked heading into 502 00:30:17,462 --> 00:30:21,022 Speaker 1: the inquiry, if that triple zero call, there's obviously a 503 00:30:21,062 --> 00:30:24,102 Speaker 1: recording of that triple zero call, if that can be 504 00:30:24,182 --> 00:30:29,582 Speaker 1: her evidence, because to stand up in that courtroom and 505 00:30:29,662 --> 00:30:34,742 Speaker 1: recount it is too traumatic for her. I think of Randal. 506 00:30:34,982 --> 00:30:38,462 Speaker 1: He had one child and his second was due in 507 00:30:38,542 --> 00:30:43,182 Speaker 1: weeks at the time of the incident, and we're hoping 508 00:30:43,222 --> 00:30:46,502 Speaker 1: that he will talk at the inquiry, and I hope 509 00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:50,142 Speaker 1: that he has been able to find some sense of normality. 510 00:30:50,222 --> 00:30:52,782 Speaker 1: I don't know how you do, but hopefully he has. 511 00:30:54,142 --> 00:30:57,462 Speaker 2: Because one of your reporters, I think it must be 512 00:30:57,502 --> 00:31:00,382 Speaker 2: Alex who's been covering the story so closely. He saw 513 00:31:00,382 --> 00:31:01,982 Speaker 2: the car that Randal was in, didn't he. 514 00:31:02,982 --> 00:31:06,942 Speaker 1: That's right, it had dozens and dozens of bullets. Randal 515 00:31:06,942 --> 00:31:09,902 Speaker 1: had already been heading the leg managed to get into 516 00:31:09,942 --> 00:31:13,902 Speaker 1: the car and as he's driving out, they were just 517 00:31:14,342 --> 00:31:16,702 Speaker 1: shooting up the car, so he was again hit by 518 00:31:17,142 --> 00:31:21,582 Speaker 1: shrapnel and glass from the windscreens being smashed. I mean, 519 00:31:21,622 --> 00:31:25,902 Speaker 1: despite all of that, physically he recovered quite quickly. I 520 00:31:25,942 --> 00:31:29,182 Speaker 1: don't think those mental and emotional scars heals so quickly. 521 00:31:29,222 --> 00:31:29,422 Speaker 4: Though. 522 00:31:30,462 --> 00:31:34,182 Speaker 2: I want to bring Alan's widow in again, because another 523 00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:37,342 Speaker 2: thing she's been struggling with is the title of hero. 524 00:31:38,262 --> 00:31:40,902 Speaker 2: It's one that's been given to Alan, but she doesn't 525 00:31:40,942 --> 00:31:41,502 Speaker 2: agree with it. 526 00:31:42,062 --> 00:31:42,222 Speaker 3: No. 527 00:31:42,702 --> 00:31:46,542 Speaker 1: And one of her quotes, and if I'm allowed to 528 00:31:46,622 --> 00:31:49,422 Speaker 1: just use the F word this once in her context, 529 00:31:50,342 --> 00:31:54,382 Speaker 1: she says, Alan dare the hero. He'd be up there 530 00:31:54,462 --> 00:31:58,902 Speaker 1: laughing his ass off. You know, there are a couple 531 00:31:58,942 --> 00:32:03,102 Speaker 1: of reasons why she doesn't want him remembered as a hero, 532 00:32:03,342 --> 00:32:07,702 Speaker 1: Because she wants him remembered for all the things that 533 00:32:07,782 --> 00:32:09,902 Speaker 1: he was aside from that day. She doesn't want him 534 00:32:09,902 --> 00:32:13,062 Speaker 1: to be defied by that day. That he was a handyman, 535 00:32:13,222 --> 00:32:16,182 Speaker 1: he built all sorts of things, he loved his grandkids, 536 00:32:16,222 --> 00:32:18,942 Speaker 1: he was a family man, he was her husband of 537 00:32:19,022 --> 00:32:21,462 Speaker 1: nearly twenty six years. That's what she wants him to 538 00:32:21,462 --> 00:32:24,462 Speaker 1: be remembered for. And I think she also feels that 539 00:32:24,462 --> 00:32:27,382 Speaker 1: that title of hero and people you know and we 540 00:32:27,462 --> 00:32:30,182 Speaker 1: all did that, from the Prime Minister down to people 541 00:32:30,222 --> 00:32:33,462 Speaker 1: on the street. Everyone called him a hero. She feels like, 542 00:32:33,902 --> 00:32:35,662 Speaker 1: I don't know, people in a way took ownership of 543 00:32:35,742 --> 00:32:38,942 Speaker 1: him as this hero, and that's not who she remembers. 544 00:32:38,982 --> 00:32:40,862 Speaker 1: And she says, there's no way he went out there 545 00:32:40,902 --> 00:32:44,462 Speaker 1: thinking that he was going to stop some gunfight. He 546 00:32:44,542 --> 00:32:47,782 Speaker 1: went out there just to investigate a fire because fires 547 00:32:47,782 --> 00:32:51,062 Speaker 1: are dangerous in that area. He went out to protect her, 548 00:32:51,942 --> 00:32:55,342 Speaker 1: not to be a hero in a broader sense of 549 00:32:55,382 --> 00:32:59,022 Speaker 1: the community. And I think it just goes into her 550 00:32:59,062 --> 00:33:03,222 Speaker 1: anger of why he was out there in the first place, 551 00:33:04,182 --> 00:33:06,902 Speaker 1: and that because people think by calling him a hero 552 00:33:07,462 --> 00:33:10,702 Speaker 1: it will change the way she feels about that. 553 00:33:11,622 --> 00:33:14,822 Speaker 2: It's also really interesting to hear her story because as 554 00:33:14,902 --> 00:33:19,142 Speaker 2: the media, not that you get carried away, but once 555 00:33:19,182 --> 00:33:22,342 Speaker 2: the story is out there labeling Alan as hero, that 556 00:33:22,502 --> 00:33:24,742 Speaker 2: is multiplied over and over and over again, and then 557 00:33:24,782 --> 00:33:27,982 Speaker 2: that's the story. It becomes. Yes, it's almost a good 558 00:33:27,982 --> 00:33:31,942 Speaker 2: reminder to look beyond the headlines. Sometimes it's so true 559 00:33:31,982 --> 00:33:33,142 Speaker 2: and that's for us as well. 560 00:33:33,142 --> 00:33:35,022 Speaker 1: And do you know even that thing though at the 561 00:33:35,062 --> 00:33:38,182 Speaker 1: time Alex and other reporters who were out there. You 562 00:33:38,262 --> 00:33:41,102 Speaker 1: talk to people in Wi and Bella and they've said, Allan, 563 00:33:41,222 --> 00:33:43,502 Speaker 1: he was just that kind of guy. He would give 564 00:33:43,542 --> 00:33:46,582 Speaker 1: you the shirt off his back, and so that's what 565 00:33:46,582 --> 00:33:49,542 Speaker 1: people were telling us as well. But then Gery again 566 00:33:49,622 --> 00:33:52,262 Speaker 1: laughingly said he wouldn't give you the shirt off his back. 567 00:33:52,382 --> 00:33:55,942 Speaker 1: He only had three shirts. He's not giving away a shirt. 568 00:33:57,502 --> 00:34:00,302 Speaker 1: And that's why I think as well, we are so 569 00:34:00,382 --> 00:34:02,462 Speaker 1: interested from a podcast point of view and from a 570 00:34:02,502 --> 00:34:05,942 Speaker 1: reporting point of view, Yes, we've got these four episodes, 571 00:34:05,942 --> 00:34:07,702 Speaker 1: so that sort of tell the story as we know 572 00:34:07,782 --> 00:34:10,022 Speaker 1: it now. But once we get into the Inquest on 573 00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:12,462 Speaker 1: the twenty ninth of July, how much more is going 574 00:34:12,502 --> 00:34:14,062 Speaker 1: to come out? How much of the story is going 575 00:34:14,102 --> 00:34:16,902 Speaker 1: to change. That's going to be fascinating. 576 00:34:18,022 --> 00:34:20,102 Speaker 2: We've touched on some of the questions that the Inquest 577 00:34:20,142 --> 00:34:22,982 Speaker 2: is going to be looking into, but there were nine 578 00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:25,982 Speaker 2: areas that the Inquest has blayed out that they're going 579 00:34:26,062 --> 00:34:29,742 Speaker 2: to delve into. We won't go into all line, but 580 00:34:29,902 --> 00:34:33,742 Speaker 2: what is the purpose really for those that aren't across 581 00:34:33,742 --> 00:34:35,502 Speaker 2: in quest, Like, what's the top line? What are we 582 00:34:35,502 --> 00:34:37,902 Speaker 2: trying to get? There's obviously no one's going to be 583 00:34:37,902 --> 00:34:40,542 Speaker 2: behind bars now. All three trains are deceased. 584 00:34:40,582 --> 00:34:42,782 Speaker 1: That's right, So why do we do this. We do 585 00:34:42,862 --> 00:34:47,022 Speaker 1: it because they're trying to find whatever information they can 586 00:34:48,262 --> 00:34:52,502 Speaker 1: so that this won't happen again. They're trying to give 587 00:34:52,782 --> 00:34:55,542 Speaker 1: the families and the people who have been affected by 588 00:34:55,582 --> 00:34:58,902 Speaker 1: it as much information as possible so that they can 589 00:34:59,782 --> 00:35:03,342 Speaker 1: make sense of it, perhaps so that they can understand 590 00:35:03,382 --> 00:35:07,382 Speaker 1: it better. And it might no one's bring them peace. 591 00:35:07,462 --> 00:35:09,462 Speaker 1: I know that's an awful phrase, but it might give 592 00:35:09,502 --> 00:35:12,182 Speaker 1: them a better understan of how and why it happened. 593 00:35:12,862 --> 00:35:15,222 Speaker 1: But we do need to know. Could the New South 594 00:35:15,222 --> 00:35:19,262 Speaker 1: Wales Police have told the Queensland Police anything different about 595 00:35:19,342 --> 00:35:23,222 Speaker 1: Nathaniel Train when he crossed the border. That missing person's 596 00:35:23,302 --> 00:35:25,102 Speaker 1: check was a call from New South Wales Police to 597 00:35:25,142 --> 00:35:26,982 Speaker 1: Queensland Police, can you go and check on this guy? 598 00:35:27,702 --> 00:35:30,782 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that the Queensland Police officers should 599 00:35:30,782 --> 00:35:33,222 Speaker 1: have been told that day that might come out. I 600 00:35:33,222 --> 00:35:36,182 Speaker 1: think we do often say we want to learn so 601 00:35:36,302 --> 00:35:39,542 Speaker 1: that it never happens again. I think really what we 602 00:35:39,582 --> 00:35:42,462 Speaker 1: want is it doesn't happen as often, and if it 603 00:35:42,462 --> 00:35:46,502 Speaker 1: does happen again, we're better prepared. And part of that 604 00:35:46,702 --> 00:35:48,222 Speaker 1: is one of the things that has already come out 605 00:35:48,262 --> 00:35:50,262 Speaker 1: about it. It was the National Gun Register that has 606 00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:52,822 Speaker 1: been talked about that has now been put in place 607 00:35:52,862 --> 00:35:55,262 Speaker 1: and that will be up and running within four years. 608 00:35:55,302 --> 00:35:57,902 Speaker 1: And what that will be as a national database who 609 00:35:57,942 --> 00:36:01,342 Speaker 1: owns what guns? Are there any sort of outstanding warrants, 610 00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:05,062 Speaker 1: Are there any that their licenses have expired? Those sorts 611 00:36:05,102 --> 00:36:07,902 Speaker 1: of things will be available to police officers right across 612 00:36:07,902 --> 00:36:11,302 Speaker 1: Australia rather than each state having their own. So these 613 00:36:11,342 --> 00:36:15,142 Speaker 1: sorts of things, do we need to streamline some information 614 00:36:15,302 --> 00:36:19,142 Speaker 1: that we share, police officers share, authorities share. And also 615 00:36:19,262 --> 00:36:21,342 Speaker 1: the other thing is what else do we need to 616 00:36:21,382 --> 00:36:25,942 Speaker 1: know about this online radicalization that's going on. How does 617 00:36:26,022 --> 00:36:29,982 Speaker 1: AZIO or that security level deal with it and how 618 00:36:30,022 --> 00:36:31,622 Speaker 1: are they going to deal with it in the future, 619 00:36:31,662 --> 00:36:35,022 Speaker 1: because there's only going to be more of that, unfortunately. 620 00:36:36,182 --> 00:36:39,222 Speaker 2: I think that's the part that I find quite terrifying, 621 00:36:39,342 --> 00:36:44,302 Speaker 2: the online communities, the amount of hate and vitriol and 622 00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:47,742 Speaker 2: misinformation that is in those worlds. I mean, we've just 623 00:36:47,742 --> 00:36:51,262 Speaker 2: seen it with this story teachers turned into. 624 00:36:51,302 --> 00:36:52,902 Speaker 1: Killers cop killers. 625 00:36:53,782 --> 00:36:55,782 Speaker 2: Do you think that there's a potential for that to 626 00:36:55,782 --> 00:36:58,982 Speaker 2: be the next frontier of violence in our country? 627 00:36:59,462 --> 00:36:59,582 Speaker 5: Oh? 628 00:36:59,622 --> 00:37:02,462 Speaker 1: I think that's what we're all frightened of, and I 629 00:37:02,582 --> 00:37:05,622 Speaker 1: think we're lucky in Australia because we do have such 630 00:37:05,742 --> 00:37:09,622 Speaker 1: strict gun control, the gun laws that we have, which 631 00:37:09,622 --> 00:37:14,302 Speaker 1: of course came in after the awful Port Arthur massacre. Yes, 632 00:37:14,582 --> 00:37:17,382 Speaker 1: that's one aspect of the guns being around, but we 633 00:37:17,462 --> 00:37:21,982 Speaker 1: do need to deal with this online. I don't know 634 00:37:21,982 --> 00:37:24,862 Speaker 1: how you do it. I mean, it's a very dark 635 00:37:24,942 --> 00:37:27,542 Speaker 1: place and I guess the authorities are doing the best 636 00:37:27,542 --> 00:37:29,382 Speaker 1: they can to try to monitor it. 637 00:37:34,462 --> 00:37:37,062 Speaker 2: Thanks to Melissa for helping us to tell this story. 638 00:37:37,582 --> 00:37:41,102 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and 639 00:37:41,142 --> 00:37:44,942 Speaker 2: produced by me Jemma Bath, with audio design by Scott Stronik. 640 00:37:45,342 --> 00:37:49,102 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening. 641 00:37:49,342 --> 00:37:52,182 Speaker 2: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation