Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm
Speaker 2: Holly wayIn Wright.
Speaker 3: I'm Meya Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm a
Speaker 3: little irritable. Would you like to know why I'm irritable today?
Speaker 3: It is because over the weekend I went to the
Speaker 3: gym because all the people on the Instagram a telling me,
Speaker 3: I need you got to limp and if you gotta
Speaker 3: lift heavy, however much you're lifting, lift more.
Speaker 2: Was a big conversation on mid the other.
Speaker 3: Wak exactly right, And I listened to that and I went,
Speaker 3: all right, bone density tick, gonna.
Speaker 4: Go and lift heavy.
Speaker 3: So I went and I lifted four kilos heavier than
Speaker 3: I normally would.
Speaker 4: I did well. This was like I was doing like
Speaker 4: a squat.
Speaker 3: Thing and I got a twelve kilo ped all bell
Speaker 3: whatever you call it. Anyway, I did a squat and
Speaker 3: I felt my lower back go and like it was
Speaker 3: in the first two minutes of being at the gym,
Speaker 3: and I have been limping all.
Speaker 4: Weekend, because it's not like you can stop lifting.
Speaker 3: I've got a twelve kilo toddler who isn't just a
Speaker 3: dead weight.
Speaker 4: She actually resists.
Speaker 3: Against me a lot of the time when I'm holding her. Now,
Speaker 3: I just have this terrible back.
Speaker 1: That's funny because I was also lifting on the weekend,
Speaker 1: and I lifted a bit hard too. I don't think
Speaker 1: I did twelve kilos, but somehow lifting a toddler doesn't
Speaker 1: feel as heavy as lifting a weight.
Speaker 3: It does mean when they're trying to throw themselves out
Speaker 3: of your hand.
Speaker 1: But I've also been lifting a little hard.
Speaker 4: Holly has your back, mate.
Speaker 2: The only thing I lifted on the weekend was a
Speaker 2: cup of tea in a sandwich, So my back's just fine.
Speaker 2: I'm ignoring all that wise health advice anyway. Friends, unless
Speaker 2: you're perhaps wisely avoiding everything news, you would know that
Speaker 2: this weekend America back to Israel's war with Iran, and
Speaker 2: talk of what this escalation means for the world is everywhere.
Speaker 2: If you want a calm headed explainer of that, please
Speaker 2: go and listen to today's episode of The Quickie, where
Speaker 2: Claire Murphy and Taylor Strano do what they do best
Speaker 2: and give a very clear overview, complete with some expert commentary.
Speaker 2: It's really good listen.
Speaker 1: But here is what is on our agenda for today.
Speaker 3: We're going to unpackage because the jury is out and
Speaker 3: I'm part of the jury.
Speaker 2: I tried to sneak it in twice last week. Now
Speaker 2: I'm doubting it.
Speaker 1: I am responsible for this new piece of podcast furniture
Speaker 1: agenda sogenda is vernacular that we use. We do when
Speaker 1: we're talking about put that on the agenda. Usually it's
Speaker 1: before we have dinner. I used this with a lot.
Speaker 3: Of groups, so a portmanteau it is of and agenda.
Speaker 2: It's not really clear why our agenda has anything to
Speaker 2: do with the vagina, but it does. Sometimes we actually
Speaker 2: have a vagenda notesapp going we do for dinner where
Speaker 2: we put the things in.
Speaker 1: Well, because I'm just like a group of women talking
Speaker 1: about some things, they have some things on the vergenda.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to
Speaker 1: be thought of this series. Well. Anyway, on our agenda
Speaker 1: for today, if you haven't heard about the wedding of
Speaker 1: the year that's happening in Venice this week, you won't
Speaker 1: be able to miss it. Pretty soon, Amazon founded Jeff
Speaker 1: Bezos and astronaut Lauren Sanchez and making it official, and
Speaker 1: we are going to unpack the twenty seven dresses, the protests,
Speaker 1: and the affair that kicked it all off.
Speaker 2: What you have heard of friends is let them. And
Speaker 2: if you came to our Mama Maya out loud live show,
Speaker 2: you've also heard a foul mouthed version of that. But
Speaker 2: there's a new one. There's a new let them. It's
Speaker 2: called who says, Oh, we're going to tell you about that?
Speaker 3: And Jamila Jamil is done being interviewed by other women.
Speaker 4: Does she kind of have a point?
Speaker 2: But first, if your dad was a Russian billionaire, would
Speaker 2: you expect a cut of his fortune?
Speaker 4: I think my dad is the opposite of a Russian billionaire.
Speaker 2: No fortune coming for you. What about if you'd never
Speaker 2: even met him? I want you to meet this guy
Speaker 2: called Pavel Durov. Now he founded the controversial messaging platform Telegram.
Speaker 2: You might have heard about him. He got arrested in
Speaker 2: France a while ago. He's a little bit dubious, but anyway,
Speaker 2: he is worth a rumored twenty one billion Australian dollars
Speaker 2: and He also, like other billionaires, really really really likes
Speaker 2: father and kids. Apparently between the kids his father in
Speaker 2: what you might call the conventional way with a partner,
Speaker 2: and the sperm donation that he kind of advertised, like
Speaker 2: want to have my baby, come and do it. He
Speaker 2: reckons he's got more than one hundred children, and so
Speaker 2: far that's quite typical. There are quite a few of
Speaker 2: these guys that called pro natalists, who believe that smart
Speaker 2: masters of the universe, like themselves, should breed more. But
Speaker 2: what's a bit different about him is that he's gone
Speaker 2: public saying that in about thirty years he's going to
Speaker 2: split his entire fortune between all of the children. So
Speaker 2: the more than one hundred children, whether they are children
Speaker 2: that he has fathered actively or just the sperm donory ones,
Speaker 2: that will probably mean, depending on how many more he has,
Speaker 2: that these kids will get about two hundred and sixty
Speaker 2: million each.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: So what he's done this is really interesting. He's essentially
Speaker 1: gamified it and it'll now become like a hunger game
Speaker 1: situation among women who want to have children and have
Speaker 1: access to that kind of life. The lottery.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is this term that I learned over the
Speaker 3: weekend called accidental incest, which is being referred to because
Speaker 3: you do have some sperm donors who are donating so
Speaker 3: much and creating so many kids. There was an instance
Speaker 3: in Australia where woman was talking about it where she
Speaker 3: said that people that were half siblings were finding each
Speaker 3: other at parties not knowing that they were half siblings.
Speaker 1: Did you watch that documentary The Man with one hundred
Speaker 1: Children a thousand? That was about exactly this. And there
Speaker 1: are these men, the pro natalists or whatever their issue
Speaker 1: is or their reasoning for it, is that they are
Speaker 1: just spreading their sperm literally everywhere. And most sperm banks
Speaker 1: in most countries and states have limitations on how many
Speaker 1: times you can donate for this exact way, because in
Speaker 1: a particular town, for example, you can't have too many
Speaker 1: kids that are around the same age they might you know,
Speaker 1: hook up. But these men get around it by going
Speaker 1: to different countries because there's not like one international sperm
Speaker 1: bank that regulates these things. So it's a real issue.
Speaker 3: I'm worried about the proliferation of these precise genes right
Speaker 3: because it's like, what are we genetically privileging? If you're
Speaker 3: a pro natalist you're a particular type of person. Think
Speaker 3: about Elon Musk. What does that do to the human race?
Speaker 3: If you've got a very specific type of man who
Speaker 3: is fathering hundreds and hundreds of children like that is
Speaker 3: worrying going forward.
Speaker 4: Jamila Jamil is.
Speaker 3: Done being interviewed by women. Jamil is a thirty nine
Speaker 3: year old actress. People might know her from The Good Place.
Speaker 3: She was in that, but she's more so known as
Speaker 3: a body positivity advocate. She was very vocal when the
Speaker 3: Kardashians were spooking their dietees, and she hosted a podcast
Speaker 3: called Iway with Umila Jamil, which was very very popular. Recently,
Speaker 3: she was actually a guest on No Filter. She was
Speaker 3: in Australia.
Speaker 1: I have seen her in The Good Place. She was
Speaker 1: great in that, but more people would probably know her
Speaker 1: from Instagram. She's a feminist, well, she's identified as a
Speaker 1: feminism and speaks out about all different kinds of things.
Speaker 1: She's very outspoken on.
Speaker 4: A bit of a commentator.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and over the weekend she published a sub stack
Speaker 3: with the subject line I think I'm done being interviewed
Speaker 3: by women. I am disgusted, and she says her trust
Speaker 3: has been broken for the last time after a toothy
Speaker 3: opinion piece in the UK Times, which we're going to
Speaker 3: get to in a moment, but after being interviewed in
Speaker 3: print for more than seventeen years, she says she's only
Speaker 3: been treated fairly by women three times, where she says
Speaker 3: that male journalists have always given her a fair shot.
Speaker 3: When she read the profile, which was written to promote
Speaker 3: schod new podcast out called Wrong Turns and a Pixar
Speaker 3: movie called Elio where she voices one of the characters,
Speaker 3: she said it was like reading the gossip section of
Speaker 3: her Wikipedia page. She said it was cheap and bit
Speaker 3: she intended to embarrass her. And we don't interview men
Speaker 3: like this, opening with paragraphs about all of their controversies. Holly,
Speaker 3: before we go any further, can you give us a
Speaker 3: sense of our primary source here the Times piece? What
Speaker 3: was the vibe of the Times piece?
Speaker 2: Yes, so it was written by a journalist called Liz Edwards,
Speaker 2: and Jamala Jamil makes the point in her piece that
Speaker 2: usually she's a travel writer at the time, so that's
Speaker 2: kind of true. She does do a lot of travel content.
Speaker 2: But one of the things that is eye opening about
Speaker 2: this really is that when I read it. It didn't
Speaker 2: strike me as particularly toothy, but I see Jamala's points.
Speaker 2: So here's just a taste of it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So the first thing is is that the online headline
Speaker 2: is Jamala Jamil I stood up for Megan long before
Speaker 2: I met her, referencing Meghan Markle. It has a different
Speaker 2: headline in the actuals. I think it's from the magazine
Speaker 2: from Sunday Time with magazine, and it starts like this,
Speaker 2: It says Jamala Jamal says she does not need your approval.
Speaker 2: I don't personally like that many people, so I think
Speaker 2: it's ridiculous for me to expect other people like me,
Speaker 2: says the thirty nine year old TV presenter Da Da
Speaker 2: Da Da Da. Talk about her social media rows, as
Speaker 2: they say, and they cherry pick a few comments when
Speaker 2: she called a famous actor a freshly wanked cock, for example,
Speaker 2: and she said some pissy things about several people. And
Speaker 2: then the writer says, all of this might mean you'd
Speaker 2: expect her to be prickly company, but she's more cats
Speaker 2: poor than cactus spikes. She's in velvet. She's funny and
Speaker 2: self aware and disarmingly polite to me, to the hotel
Speaker 2: bar staff, whose best efforts at finding us at the
Speaker 2: quiet table come to nothing, and to the waiters.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: So this to any journalist, they're establishing color right like,
Speaker 2: they're giving you a sense of the person. This is
Speaker 2: what profiles do. She goes on to talk about what
Speaker 2: she's wearing, what she looks like. She says that she
Speaker 2: looks great in what she's wearing. It takes a bit
Speaker 2: of a turn. The writer talks about some of Jamila
Speaker 2: Jamil's stated life story, which is she says she has
Speaker 2: had several different health issues, She's struggled with the eating disorder,
Speaker 2: She's been in two different car accidents. And the rider
Speaker 2: seems to be saying a lot of things have happened
Speaker 2: to Jamila.
Speaker 3: Which the writer isn't the first person to say that.
Speaker 3: There's been enormous controversy and kind of an internet massive
Speaker 3: discussion about whether or not some of those claims are true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the journalist brings up, for example, a spat
Speaker 2: I guess a social media spat she had with Piers Morgan,
Speaker 2: and Jamil says, I have no interest in even continuing
Speaker 2: this line of conversation. Jamil now says, coolly, echoed by
Speaker 2: alarmed murmurs from her publicists at the next table, foolishness
Speaker 2: is something we should discourage in the media. She records
Speaker 2: our whole conversation, if I go down in flames, I
Speaker 2: want to go down in flames based on my own words,
Speaker 2: not via made up nonsense. And then, and this line
Speaker 2: is one that Jamela particularly took issue with. The writer says,
Speaker 2: the clause retract and congeniality resumes. As we chat over
Speaker 2: the array of tapas that arrives.
Speaker 3: The clause is are loaded. There is something sexist about that.
Speaker 3: You would not use that terminology about a man. And
Speaker 3: a lot of what Jamila Jamil writes is true, and
Speaker 3: she's right, but there's an irony to it because I
Speaker 3: thought that some of what Jamil wrote in her substack
Speaker 3: was also laced with a little bit of sexism about
Speaker 3: the writer.
Speaker 4: Did anyone else notice that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I think is hard to
Speaker 2: unpick here is celebrity profile writing suddenly feels very different now,
Speaker 2: and it's not as in the form is not like
Speaker 2: the way that this article starts. Jamila Jimil says she
Speaker 2: doesn't need to approval full stop. It's like classic magazine writing.
Speaker 2: You start with a really pithy line, a statement, and
Speaker 2: then you're building a case. Almost That's what every profile
Speaker 2: writer does, is they meet a person, they spend some
Speaker 2: time with them, and then they're kind of laying out
Speaker 2: their case. And this is what Jamil takes issue with.
Speaker 2: She says, you know, why are they always prosecuting me
Speaker 2: and whether or not I have a right to say things,
Speaker 2: you know, my personality rather than my work. And this
Speaker 2: is something we've discussed on this podcast a lot. Women
Speaker 2: do very often get judged much more for who they
Speaker 2: are than what they do. One of the things I
Speaker 2: have issue with here is I also think this is
Speaker 2: how male profile happened to a little bit less commentary
Speaker 2: on what they're wearing. But this is the nature of
Speaker 2: the beast with a celebrity profile. And now that we
Speaker 2: all speak so directly, like when Jamela, for example, was
Speaker 2: on Now Filter with kateline Brook, brilliant interview, really insightful,
Speaker 2: she is entirely presenting herself right. There's no editorializing, and
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why it feels so authentic
Speaker 2: and real, Whereas the whole point of a celebrity profile
Speaker 2: is it as editorialized right, Maya.
Speaker 1: I find this whole thing completely exhausting, completely exhausting. I
Speaker 1: find to be Frank Jamila Jamil pretty exhausting. I think
Speaker 1: she's quite typical of a certain type of online personality.
Speaker 1: And I probably used to be a bit this myself
Speaker 1: many years ago, until I made a conscious decision not
Speaker 1: to be. It's like, you want to dish it out,
Speaker 1: but then when someone criticizes you, despite her saying, including
Speaker 1: in this profile, she says, perhaps this is my superpower.
Speaker 1: It makes me untouchable and quite dangerous. I'm immune to
Speaker 1: being judged because I don't care. Except she does care,
Speaker 1: to the point where she's written this multi thousand word
Speaker 1: takedown on substack, which is absolutely her right, and I
Speaker 1: have to say I empathize.
Speaker 2: With her a lot.
Speaker 1: I've had profiles written of me that have made me
Speaker 1: feel exactly like this.
Speaker 2: I remember in the earlier years of me working with you, Mia,
Speaker 2: I remember in our old office, an esteemed publication was
Speaker 2: doing a profile. A journalist basically followed you around for
Speaker 2: a couple of days, right, sat in on a few meetings,
Speaker 2: interviews you like, this is how profiles work. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: how how do you feel about those or did you
Speaker 2: feel about those It's not necessarily that specific one, but
Speaker 2: those pieces that sort of conceit of journalism. How did
Speaker 2: it make you feel when you saw yourself reflected in
Speaker 2: those eyes.
Speaker 1: There's a good reason they don't do them anymore, because
Speaker 1: they have to find an angle. It's not a what's
Speaker 1: you know called a hagiography, It's not a fluff piece. No,
Speaker 1: And she says, why didn't she engage with me about
Speaker 1: the issues I talk about? It's like, it's not up
Speaker 1: to you. You're not the editor of the Times. You
Speaker 1: don't get to decide what this journalist says about you.
Speaker 1: Another one of her complaints is that this woman who
Speaker 1: didn't know me, who didn't know anyone who knows me,
Speaker 1: how very DAEs she write about me in this way?
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, that's how interviews work, Like that's
Speaker 1: actually how interviews work. And then she goes on to say, well,
Speaker 1: I've interviewed people and this is how I do it.
Speaker 1: What I thought about is, in this age of social media,
Speaker 1: when everybody's used to being able to speak for themselves
Speaker 1: and control the narrative, when someone else speaks about you,
Speaker 1: it's suddenly like, how very dare you, and again I
Speaker 1: also know how that feels too.
Speaker 3: If I was sitting in the editorial team for The Times,
Speaker 3: my defense would be, it is a profile promoting Jamila Jamil.
Speaker 3: There was a photo shoot involved in it. She was
Speaker 3: getting something very clear out of this. It wasn't a
Speaker 3: community service engagement, and she wasn't there being the face
Speaker 3: of a charity. She was there promoting her work, which
Speaker 3: is her right, and her work is a new podcast
Speaker 3: called Wrong Turns. That podcast is all about failures, embarrassing moments,
Speaker 3: perhaps vulnerabilities. Yes, what the author wrote about was thematically
Speaker 3: not irrelevant, like you could see how even I'm a
Speaker 3: pervert for failure or whatever was the line, It was
Speaker 3: sort of relevant to the subject matter.
Speaker 1: But I think that people have really got to understand,
Speaker 1: including people who are interviewed, is the journalist doesn't choose
Speaker 1: the headline, doesn't choose the pool quotes. So those quotes
Speaker 1: that come out, that's all chosen by the sub editor
Speaker 1: or by the editor, And of course it's designed to
Speaker 1: take the most interesting, controversial part of the interview in
Speaker 1: the same way that she did that with hers by
Speaker 1: using the very rage baity headline I'm done being interviewed
Speaker 1: by women, which she did the exact same thing.
Speaker 2: That's what I take issue in a bit, because I
Speaker 2: think she's got a lot, as we've discussed, she's got
Speaker 2: a lot of fair points about it. It is true that
Speaker 2: women can be very highly critical of other women. We're
Speaker 2: very aware of that. But by doing that and taking
Speaker 2: that headline, for a start, it makes every female journalist,
Speaker 2: probably including myself, very defensive because you're like, well, you know,
Speaker 2: we're not all out here trying to take people down.
Speaker 2: But also it is rage bait, just in the way
Speaker 2: that she complained that the reason that the Times Online
Speaker 2: editor chose the Megan Markel quote, which was one tiny
Speaker 2: bit of the interview where basically the journalist says, do
Speaker 2: you know Megan, do hang out? And she's like no,
Speaker 2: Like I was interviewed by I once, I defended her
Speaker 2: publicly in the same way of defendants of women who
Speaker 2: are criticized.
Speaker 1: Which was a very understandable question. And I have to
Speaker 1: say all three of us have read the original source
Speaker 1: materials as well as Jamila Jamil's piece, and that was
Speaker 1: in the context of her talking about how her and
Speaker 1: her boyfriend moved to La You know She's also been
Speaker 1: interviewed on Megan's podcast Jamila Lamil. So it wasn't a
Speaker 1: crazy question to say, hey, did you hang out? There's
Speaker 1: another couple there that have also moved from the UK
Speaker 1: and around the same time, do you guys hang out?
Speaker 1: It was a reasonable question and she was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've had dinner a bit like.
Speaker 2: I know, but it's been pulled as the news line,
Speaker 2: which is what every journalist does, right as you pull
Speaker 2: the news line the most interesting, sallacious bits.
Speaker 1: That's not the journalist's fault because they write the piece
Speaker 1: and they don't know what's going to be pulled out
Speaker 1: as the headline or as the pull quote. That's not
Speaker 1: in their control.
Speaker 3: So what I struggle with, and I've seen this within
Speaker 3: feminists fears quite a bit lately, which is that someone
Speaker 3: sees something that they think is sexist or misogynistic by
Speaker 3: another woman, and then in the name of feminism, they
Speaker 3: call that woman old or ugly or a pick me
Speaker 3: girl or something, or a misogynist, which which I still go, mate,
Speaker 3: you're using the same trope. So for example, there was
Speaker 3: one line where she said, please God, may I never
Speaker 3: find this is Jimi La Jamil Please, God, may I
Speaker 3: never find myself middle aged dedicated to taking women trying
Speaker 3: to do something positive in the world down a peg
Speaker 3: or two. I hope I'm still directing my energy towards progress,
Speaker 3: not taking the bins out for the patriarchy for a
Speaker 3: paycheck and a pat on the head. There were lines
Speaker 3: like that in it that I just thought that just
Speaker 3: feels as though it's laced with sexism in the same way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a certain type of online feminist who I've
Speaker 1: read described as a self aggrandizing and abrasive version of
Speaker 1: feminism that they're peddling. So it's they'll really dish it out,
Speaker 1: but then when it comes back to them, they cri misogyny,
Speaker 1: they cry how unfair it is, and it's just very
Speaker 1: I don't know, either you're in the arena or you're
Speaker 1: not in the arena.
Speaker 2: But well, yes, but not everything's fair in the arena, right,
Speaker 2: Like I think it's fair enough to call out when
Speaker 2: you've been misrepresented. I think it's fair enough to call
Speaker 2: out when something's damaging or defamatory or whatever. Like, I
Speaker 2: don't think it's fair to go in the name of
Speaker 2: selling a TV show. You should be fair game for
Speaker 2: all kinds.
Speaker 1: But whole Why does she keep saying I'm immune to
Speaker 1: being judged. I don't care what people think of me.
Speaker 1: I don't care what people think of me. And then
Speaker 1: there's a profile and again she talks about I did
Speaker 1: contact the journalist. There's been no response, no apology, no deletion,
Speaker 1: no removal of the piece. And it's like this other
Speaker 1: media the world, this is the Internet. And if you're
Speaker 1: going to again, if you're going to be in the arena,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to get a bloody nose in the arena.
Speaker 1: And as a woman of color, she cops so much
Speaker 1: more than most women. And it's true, she gets trolled.
Speaker 1: Every woman online does she does that little.
Speaker 3: Bit more well, and outspoken women do cop it more.
Speaker 3: And I think that you could read a profile on
Speaker 3: someone like Harvey Weinstein and he wouldn't be described as controversial.
Speaker 3: Like controversial every woman in the public eye is described.
Speaker 2: That's true. Even the word outspoken. How often do you
Speaker 2: hear Troman being described as outspoken. I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of truth in what she says. It just really
Speaker 2: riles me that in saying it, she has smeared a
Speaker 2: whole lot of women in a moment the new theory
Speaker 2: that challenges MeTL robins Let them friends? Why do you
Speaker 2: wear a bra?
Speaker 4: Because I'd hit myself in the face if I didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that my boobs don't hurt yourself?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because it's I.
Speaker 1: Feel uncomfortable, although I also feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: So the reason I'm asking this question is because of
Speaker 2: a story that I just read. It's an important part
Speaker 2: in this column I just read by the Herald journalist
Speaker 2: Kate Halfpenny about a counterpoint to the let them obsession.
Speaker 2: She is writing in defense of the who says theory
Speaker 2: and let me explain the bra bit. She opens with
Speaker 2: the story of a friend who was complaining that her
Speaker 2: bra was cutting into her shoulders right, and a friend
Speaker 2: who was with her said that she never wears a bra,
Speaker 2: particularly in winter when you've got five layers on, like
Speaker 2: who knows whether your boobs are down round your waist
Speaker 2: or up near your chin, and said, why would you
Speaker 2: wear one unless you were meeting the bank manager. The conversation,
Speaker 2: Kate writes, spurred Amy to do two things. First, abandon
Speaker 2: a bra unless she's working out. Second, ask why it
Speaker 2: took her until she was forty to question doing something
Speaker 2: every day that she hated. Now she asks who says
Speaker 2: when making decisions, Who says you have to wear a
Speaker 2: wretched undergarment just to create a pleasing silhouette. Who says
Speaker 2: you have to have porridge if you want pancakes? Who
Speaker 2: says you have to behave mia. Let them was your
Speaker 2: word of the year this year, but your relationship with
Speaker 2: it has changed.
Speaker 1: I think that this idea of let them is very
Speaker 1: linked with passivity, and that can sometimes be a good
Speaker 1: thing because we can twist ourselves into notts about things
Speaker 1: we can't change people in our lives, geopolitical situations, and
Speaker 1: so let them was just basically the only thing you
Speaker 1: can control is how you feel about a situation. We
Speaker 1: sort of started to talk we talked about on the
Speaker 1: show about Michelle. Obama brought a slightly different energy, which
Speaker 1: is a little bit more fuck em, which is kind
Speaker 1: of like, you don't have to be all sort of
Speaker 1: Buddhist and zen about these terrible things that are happening,
Speaker 1: or these people that you don't like, all these situations
Speaker 1: that you're not comfortable with. You can actually be a
Speaker 1: little bit more burn it down.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that when we say let them.
Speaker 1: I've tried. I've tried.
Speaker 4: I'm not being honest with myself for others.
Speaker 3: I sometimes you do need a little bit more venom,
Speaker 3: which is why I think fuckham has really helped. I'm
Speaker 3: not going to do anything like I think that Jimila
Speaker 3: Jamial probably should have said fuck him and then like
Speaker 3: quietly to yeah, just quietly to herself, for example, rather
Speaker 3: than going into that fight mode, which is you know,
Speaker 3: totally understandable as well. But I really liked the who
Speaker 3: says theory because who says I can't wear a shirt
Speaker 3: with a bleached stain on it?
Speaker 4: I have two bleach stains on this shirt.
Speaker 3: I just who says I can't wear the same jeans
Speaker 3: and the same shoes to work every day?
Speaker 1: Who says I have to wax or lays in my
Speaker 1: bikini line?
Speaker 4: It's funny. When I was going through the who says though,
Speaker 4: I went, oh.
Speaker 2: Maya, like, it's true that this is what Kate for one?
Speaker 4: Who says that I can't wear the same James to
Speaker 4: wake everything?
Speaker 2: Kate Halfpenny was riding about that. Increasingly, it feels like
Speaker 2: there's an army of people on the Internet giving us
Speaker 2: more rules, like more rules all the time, rules about
Speaker 2: your face, rules about your food, rule camelte, rules about
Speaker 2: your gene shape, rules about your socks, ruled about shoes.
Speaker 2: And she's like, we all absorb them and then constantly
Speaker 2: feel like we're wrong. And she's like, the anecdote about
Speaker 2: the bra is kind of like, obviously, if it's for
Speaker 2: your comfort, go for it. But if it's just because
Speaker 2: the world has decided there should be something between your
Speaker 2: nipples and your outer garments. Who says, I like this
Speaker 2: energy and I should have written this bloody story because
Speaker 2: I have a post it on the wall of my
Speaker 2: office that says, you don't have to and it is
Speaker 2: like my little mantra because for.
Speaker 3: Someone with that post at Hollywayen right, you things that
Speaker 3: you don't want to do.
Speaker 2: I know, but you know how it's supposed to be
Speaker 2: my year of not which is clearly going on really
Speaker 2: really well. But as me and well as you guys
Speaker 2: know very well, I don't like feeling like I have
Speaker 2: to do things, and I get a lot of freedom
Speaker 2: when I can reframe it. It's like, you don't have to,
Speaker 2: but you're choosing to, even if it's kind of bush.
Speaker 1: So I sometimes get this phrase in my head, you're
Speaker 1: not the boss of me. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2: It's like that. So it's like I don't have to
Speaker 2: be governed by my group chats. I don't have to
Speaker 2: like look forty when I'm fifty. I don't have to
Speaker 2: say yes to everything everyone asked me to do. That
Speaker 2: would make so life easier. It's like who says, who says?
Speaker 2: It's a little bit toddler though, isn't it?
Speaker 4: It's very two year old.
Speaker 1: I don't think it always is, because sometimes it's just
Speaker 1: about really challenging your own internalized preconceptions, because you're right,
Speaker 1: you're like, well, who says and apart from me says like, well, why,
Speaker 1: I remember once interviewing someone and I can't even remember
Speaker 1: how it came up because I'm soogynist, and I was
Speaker 1: asking her about VPL Remember when that was the thing
Speaker 1: visible panty line?
Speaker 4: Oh you've never never taken that a.
Speaker 1: Long time ago, And she's just like, well, who says
Speaker 1: it has to be something that you're ashamed of? Who
Speaker 1: says it's something that you should have to try and hide?
Speaker 3: See, I think that my mantra is a little bit
Speaker 3: it's none of my business, Like my VPL. My visible
Speaker 3: panty line, which I know I have, is none of
Speaker 3: my business because I can't say, only you can.
Speaker 4: But then you bring it up, and that's who says.
Speaker 5: Then I says, Mia says after the break, We've got
Speaker 5: some scarless gossip about Katie Perry. Every Tuesday and Thursday
Speaker 5: we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out
Speaker 5: Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 5: link in the show notes to get your daily dose
Speaker 5: of Out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
Speaker 5: who is already subscribed.
Speaker 3: Friends, I would never engage in scroless gossip. I'm above it,
Speaker 3: unlike you to. However, the news is bleak. There is
Speaker 3: a lot going on in the world keeping me and
Speaker 3: others up at night, and so I would like for
Speaker 3: just one moment to reflect upon Katy Perry's alleged separation
Speaker 3: from Orlando Bloom, for which we have little to note proof.
Speaker 2: Are you ready will allow how alleged is it?
Speaker 4: Sources? Tell people? Okay, can you give me a percentage
Speaker 4: on that?
Speaker 1: Oh, People magazine, People Magazine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty solid.
Speaker 1: That's pretty much like a publicist making an announcement. Great, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's or you make announcement on the notes app.
Speaker 4: Great, Okay.
Speaker 3: So the pair met in twenty sixteen and then in
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen they actually had a year long break, but
Speaker 3: then they got back together. They had a daughter who
Speaker 3: can remember her name Daisy, Yes, because she brought the
Speaker 3: Daisy to space.
Speaker 2: Wasting my brain cells. Since nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3: Five, there are reports that Orlando Bloom mocked Katy Perry's
Speaker 3: space flight.
Speaker 5: Very dare he?
Speaker 4: How dare he?
Speaker 3: Because he would have gone up there in a heartbeat?
Speaker 3: Are you telling me that Orlando Bloom would have said no?
Speaker 3: Like he is so a go to space guy?
Speaker 2: Is this the story that the reason they've broken up
Speaker 2: is he was embarrassed by that.
Speaker 4: So there are a few reasons.
Speaker 3: One is that they got into a fight about the
Speaker 3: spaceflight and he said, I told you not to do it,
Speaker 3: I told you they'd be BackFlash and you didn't listen
Speaker 3: to me. Apparently that fight happened in the middle of
Speaker 3: the night, which I just feel like is an important tatail.
Speaker 2: So the leak's here are the house staff?
Speaker 1: Okay, we've got.
Speaker 4: It, or Daisy.
Speaker 3: The second thing is there are reports that he is
Speaker 3: going to the Bezos wedding without her.
Speaker 4: Because she's in Australia tour Australia.
Speaker 3: She was at Laurence hend she was exactly and she
Speaker 3: can't go because she's in Australia and she's mad because
Speaker 3: she's like, Orlando, you're having a go at me for
Speaker 3: doing Blue Origin, but you're going to Lauren's wedding.
Speaker 4: So apparently that's created a.
Speaker 1: Bit different going to wedding and going to Spain.
Speaker 3: But apparently they're not even Orlando's friends, they're her friends.
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't be happy.
Speaker 3: So then sources told People earlier this month that the
Speaker 3: reception of her new album and reviews of the tour
Speaker 3: has caused tension in her relationships.
Speaker 2: Still having a.
Speaker 1: Great year, She's not.
Speaker 2: Everyone, including lots of that lauders who've been to the
Speaker 2: show in Australia say it's great. Just in a quick
Speaker 2: I've heard Katy Perry.
Speaker 4: I've heard that too.
Speaker 3: I have just a bit of relationship advice looking at this,
Speaker 3: and I think it's just a bit of wisdom that
Speaker 3: we can all live by. You got to choose someone
Speaker 3: who'd stay with you through Blue Origin. Yes, look at
Speaker 3: your partner and go if I had my Blue Origin moment,
Speaker 3: which we all will.
Speaker 1: But he has he has stayed with her past that,
Speaker 1: so people can't directly link the two.
Speaker 2: It was five minutes ago.
Speaker 1: I also think it could have been the final straw.
Speaker 1: They both talked a lot about how hard it is
Speaker 1: to be married.
Speaker 2: I think she stayed with him. Who remembers that disastrous
Speaker 2: interview he did speaking of profiles, speaking of profile pieces
Speaker 2: that paint people in a bad light. Or Lando Bloom,
Speaker 2: who last time I checked was a male. He got
Speaker 2: slammed after he did this is my day in the
Speaker 2: life profile, and it was like I wake up at
Speaker 2: dawn and I measure all my sleep apps, and then
Speaker 2: I play with Lego while I do my body's chanting,
Speaker 2: and then I do twenty five steps in my skincare routine.
Speaker 2: And he got slammed. And did she stand there? Yes,
Speaker 2: she did.
Speaker 1: All you can't back.
Speaker 2: Away because it's damaging for you brand. It's not okay.
Speaker 3: You know what's hard for Katie If she's in therapy
Speaker 3: right now and she's talking about, like I did this
Speaker 3: Blue Origin thing, blah blah blah, and if her therapist
Speaker 3: was to say, who says it was frivolous and out
Speaker 3: of touch everyone. Everyone don't play the who says game Katie,
Speaker 3: it is not a good time to be playing.
Speaker 1: I I think she has to say fuck them.
Speaker 4: I think it's fucking for her anyway.
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are getting married in Venice,
Speaker 1: Italy this week, and the city's locals are pissed. This
Speaker 1: is kind of part of a broader protest movement that's
Speaker 1: happening around Europe about over tourism. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you've heard.
Speaker 2: It's been fortunate for me. I'm about to be a
Speaker 2: tourist in your.
Speaker 4: You might be sprayed with water pistols, I've heard.
Speaker 1: You know, last week the Louver closed in Paris because
Speaker 1: the staff said there's too many people coming, were overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: were stressed, mental health is suffering, we're not working today.
Speaker 4: Why do you think tangent?
Speaker 3: But why do you think over tourism is more of
Speaker 3: an issue now than it was ten years ago?
Speaker 1: For example, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would like to blame Instagram ah as part of it.
Speaker 2: In that for example, at the Louver, everybody wants to
Speaker 2: go and get their selfie with the Mona Lisa. Do
Speaker 2: they give a shit about the Mona Lisa or not.
Speaker 2: Probably not.
Speaker 3: It's probably still part of the post COVID boom, I
Speaker 3: would imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's also that, so no one could travel
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and now everybody can if
Speaker 2: they've got the disposable income to do it. And you know,
Speaker 2: flights are cheap in certain parts of the world, and
Speaker 2: so maybe that. But also back to Jeff and yeah, so.
Speaker 1: This is a huge, huge deal. The protests are just
Speaker 1: one aspect of this whole situation. But if you've been
Speaker 1: hearing about Lauren Sanchez Jeff Bezos, obviously you'll be familiar
Speaker 1: with him. He is the third wishest man in the world.
Speaker 1: He's sixty one years old, and he founded Amazon.
Speaker 2: And if you're struggling to place them, remember the Trump inauguration.
Speaker 4: Were they there?
Speaker 2: Remember when he had all that He had all the
Speaker 2: tech billionaires sitting in a row, and Lauren wore a
Speaker 2: very eye catching top. And most of the headlines at
Speaker 2: the inauguration were actually about Lauren Sanchez's boobs and how
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg was looking at them, rather than about anything else.
Speaker 1: It's true, she's fifty five and their origin story Blue
Speaker 1: origin is very interesting. Actually, he was previously married to
Speaker 1: Mackenzie Scott for twenty five years since their divorce, and
Speaker 1: she got many billions of dollars. She was instrumental when
Speaker 1: he found out Amazon. She was very much involved in that,
Speaker 1: and she got a huge payout when they divorced. They
Speaker 1: had four kids together, and she's gone on to give
Speaker 1: most of that away. She's an incredible philanthropist. Laurence Sanchez
Speaker 1: is a third generation Mexican American. She is a journalist
Speaker 1: and she was previously married to a very big Hollywood
Speaker 1: agent guy called Patrick Whitzel. They were married for fourteen years.
Speaker 1: They had two kids together, and she had another child
Speaker 1: with an NFL player long term boyfriend of hers before
Speaker 1: she married Patrick. Fun fact, he's gone on to marry
Speaker 1: an Australian. But before we get to that, the most
Speaker 1: interesting thing is they met in twenty sixteen while married
Speaker 1: to other people. It was at an Amazon party for
Speaker 1: the film Manchester by Sea and at the time, Patrick
Speaker 1: Whitesell had a few of his stars that he represented
Speaker 1: in that film and both of them were married and
Speaker 1: their friendship grew from there.
Speaker 2: It must have been quite the moment. I love to
Speaker 2: think about the fireworks.
Speaker 3: Fly wonder at weddings like this, when you do the
Speaker 3: speeches or you do your vows and you.
Speaker 4: Talk about whether it's love at first sight.
Speaker 3: I wonder how much you have to cloak it when
Speaker 3: it was a controversial meeting story, or if you just
Speaker 3: have to own it.
Speaker 1: No, Wow, everybody knows. And this is what's very very
Speaker 1: interesting is that their friendship apparently deepened in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: two years after meeting, when Lauren, who is a licensed
Speaker 1: helicopter pilot, she started working with Jeff Bezos on aerial
Speaker 1: filming projects for his space company Blue Origin. So she
Speaker 1: goes way back with Blue Origin. So they were both
Speaker 1: kind of essentially having this affair. I think we can
Speaker 1: clearly say that in twenty nineteen, something really interesting happened.
Speaker 1: They both suddenly announced their divorce. Divorce that's from their partners. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Because what happened is that some very intimate texts and
Speaker 1: photos on her phone somehow fell into the hands of
Speaker 1: her brother, who then tried to sell them to the
Speaker 1: National Enquirer.
Speaker 2: Their hands were forced, yesly betrayal.
Speaker 1: There was Dick Picks involved, There were nude selfies and
Speaker 1: one of her very famous texts do you remember this?
Speaker 1: I love you? A live girl. He called her a
Speaker 1: live girl, And there's a really great profile of her
Speaker 1: in the Cut this week where they sort of interview
Speaker 1: a lot of people who've already known her in this
Speaker 1: idea of her being a live girl. Everyone that has
Speaker 1: ever known her says that she's always been a hustler
Speaker 1: in a good sense. But she's always incredibly charismatic, very magnetic,
Speaker 1: the life of the party, lights up, full of energy,
Speaker 1: wildly ambitious, never take stepbacks badly, just will always come
Speaker 1: back and be like you know, She's done all sorts
Speaker 1: of really interesting things in her life. So this idea
Speaker 1: of a live girl. He then was kind of like
Speaker 1: a geeky, nerdy Amazon tech billionaire.
Speaker 4: He's had a total rebrand.
Speaker 1: He glowed up. She's always been quite very glowy. I've
Speaker 1: watched a lot of videos about her facial transformation. She's
Speaker 1: got that very hard bodied, big fake boobs, a lot
Speaker 1: of very noticeable plastic surgery on her face. She's fifty
Speaker 1: five and he's become really jacked. He shaved his head.
Speaker 1: So they've both really clearly share this love of what
Speaker 1: would you call it aesthetics ypt. What do we know?
Speaker 4: What do we know about the wedding?
Speaker 2: So the wedding is in vanit has discussed it costs
Speaker 2: at least ten million, we think probably more so. The
Speaker 2: protests are about the fact that Venice over Tauru said
Speaker 2: it's going to close it down, blah blah blah. But
Speaker 2: also it's about the idea of this spec to call
Speaker 2: the uber rich while the world is burning. There were
Speaker 2: lots of speculation that Trump might go. I imagine that
Speaker 2: now he might be too busy. Yeah, but lots of
Speaker 2: very famous people will be there. Obviously, the Kardashians will
Speaker 2: have as strong showing. Chris Jenna will certainly be there,
Speaker 2: that the Clooney will be there. A lot of very famous,
Speaker 2: great and good will be there. It's all going to
Speaker 2: be in vogue because Anna Win Tour. One of the
Speaker 2: things I find fascinating. If you're wondering why we're telling
Speaker 2: you about all this a it's going to be everywhere
Speaker 2: you look by the end of this week, because this
Speaker 2: wedding lasts for three days and it's going to be
Speaker 2: on every screen because people want to distract themselves from
Speaker 2: the terrible things going on. But one of the reasons.
Speaker 2: I find them fascinating. My current obsession is like the
Speaker 2: sort of women in the culture who are looming large,
Speaker 2: and Sanchez is a really interesting one of those, because
Speaker 2: it would have been not that long ago that there
Speaker 2: would have been something kind of shameful gold diggery about
Speaker 2: this other woman who stole Jeff Bezos away, and they
Speaker 2: would kind of hide their light under a bushel a bit.
Speaker 2: But Sanchez and Bezos, as you were just saying me,
Speaker 2: have like been massively out and proud with this. And
Speaker 2: she is a very like archetype of aspiration, like looking
Speaker 2: the way she looks, which is not fifty five, for example,
Speaker 2: the way they spend their money, which is incredibly sort
Speaker 2: of up. There's yachts and there's It's really interesting because
Speaker 2: I think that's not as long as her we were
Speaker 2: out luck, we would have thought it wasn't classy, and
Speaker 2: Anna win Tour certainly would have thought it wasn't classy.
Speaker 2: But now she also sees which way the wind is
Speaker 2: blowing and she's like, we will be having this wedding pan.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think she does still see it as not classy.
Speaker 1: But Anna win Tour is a survivor and she is
Speaker 1: very savvy, and she knows that this is the new
Speaker 1: world order. You know, in Magaworld it's not about quiet luxury.
Speaker 1: Then you know they have a wide philanthropic arm and
Speaker 1: she calls herself a philanthropist. She also just wrote a
Speaker 1: children's book about a fly he goes to space. So
Speaker 1: I've been watching some interviews with her of trying to
Speaker 1: get a bit of a sense of her. She doesn't
Speaker 1: try how it be anything that she's not. She seems
Speaker 1: like she'd be a good time.
Speaker 3: My only note is I was looking at the protesters thinking,
Speaker 3: I wonder what specifically they're protesting, And of course it
Speaker 3: is about Venice in particular has been overrun and historic
Speaker 3: sites have been damaged by tourists and all that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff.
Speaker 4: And they're basically like.
Speaker 1: Which has been happening long before, yes, wedding.
Speaker 3: But I thought, if you think that what Jeff Bezos
Speaker 3: is doing to Venice is bad, wait until you learn
Speaker 3: what he's been doing to the rest of the planet.
Speaker 1: Because he is. And it's interesting that the publicity machine
Speaker 1: has already started swinging into action. There've been lots of
Speaker 1: stories being planted about here are all the local artisans
Speaker 1: that they're working with and this person's made the cake,
Speaker 1: and this local person's done this, and you know it's
Speaker 1: going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 3: This is that's ironic, given that Jeff Bezos solely destroyed
Speaker 3: local economies exactly.
Speaker 1: Well, it's very interesting this idea of over tourism protests,
Speaker 1: because tourism is the backbone of the economy of a
Speaker 1: lot of these big cities. But the locals always say, well,
Speaker 1: we can't afford to live here anymore. So you know,
Speaker 1: we have that in our own city, like Baron Bay,
Speaker 1: for example, there's a lot of protests about over tourism
Speaker 1: there and about how people are being driven out and
Speaker 1: can't afford rents anymore. So it's going to be really
Speaker 1: interesting to watch. Apparently she's had twenty seven dresses commissioned
Speaker 1: that are all pretty much cautore I would She's probably
Speaker 1: gonna wear Oscar dela Rena. That's what she wore to
Speaker 1: the met gala. There was a bit of a holding
Speaker 1: nose over who would design it, and also around all
Speaker 1: the MAGA people, but you know, Milania Trump and all
Speaker 1: the Magas. But now the designers again have seen the
Speaker 1: way the wind blows. This is incredibly lucrative for them.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how much publicity it's going to get
Speaker 1: and how much money is going to be spent. She's
Speaker 1: also been at dot Chain and Gabana. I'm sure she's
Speaker 1: spreading the love around. If she's got twenty seven dresses
Speaker 1: to wear.
Speaker 2: Out louders, that's all we've got time for on our
Speaker 2: Monday show them.
Speaker 1: That'sot One more thing, Jesse, I was at your house
Speaker 1: for dinner last night. You were there. I was having
Speaker 1: dinner with Luca and my other kids. And did you
Speaker 1: notice anything different? This morning?
Speaker 4: The house was a little messy, so I knew you'd
Speaker 4: been there.
Speaker 1: Did you notice anything different in Luna's room? No?
Speaker 4: What did you do?
Speaker 1: So? Last night I went upstairs to put it to
Speaker 1: bed after her bath, and I went to get her
Speaker 1: pajamas and I tried to open the drawer where the
Speaker 1: clothes pajamas might be. It was jammed, was so stuffed
Speaker 1: so couldn't open it. Now that might remember a while
Speaker 1: ago again, when Jesse was out, I went through Luna's
Speaker 1: clothes and that was a boundary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 1: I was a woman possessed last night. I reckon two
Speaker 1: thirds of the stuff there were two drawers. Luna did
Speaker 1: it with me. We had a great time. Two thirds
Speaker 1: of the stuff is now bagged and put away.
Speaker 2: Come to my hand.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could actually do my clothes. How you're at it?
Speaker 2: That sounds really.
Speaker 1: It made me so happy. There were like newborn rashes
Speaker 1: in there. There were a few things that went in
Speaker 1: the bit I'm telling you want There are a few
Speaker 1: things that I I was just like, this is just
Speaker 1: looks like sadness to me. It has to go.
Speaker 2: Out loud as. Please direct your anger.
Speaker 1: Connection to that rash. I did mind, I did think
Speaker 1: about that. I didn't check the rash she out. I
Speaker 1: only chucked out things that were disgusting. But the things
Speaker 1: that don't fit her anymore, I've all put away in
Speaker 1: two huge bags in a cupboard, on top of all
Speaker 1: the stuff I put away last time.
Speaker 3: So I can't remember if I said this last time,
Speaker 3: I'll speak to you. I saved her newborn singlet from
Speaker 3: the hospital, and I will say I have not been
Speaker 3: able to find that stuff.
Speaker 4: And if that's singles got bin.
Speaker 2: No, she's not sentimental, you see, but.
Speaker 4: I know some of us are very sentimental.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I would have saved that because I would
Speaker 1: have got. Oh my god, it's so small and cute.
Speaker 1: It just you probably just haven't looked in that cupboard.
Speaker 4: I haven't. I actually don't know what cupboard you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I was actually more ruthless this time. Last time, I
Speaker 1: was really nervous about overstepping boundaries, and then I told
Speaker 1: you like a week later, and you haven't noticed. So
Speaker 1: this time I had more confidence.
Speaker 2: She also hadn't noticed. Have you noticed that she'd It's
Speaker 2: going to be.
Speaker 1: So much easier to get addressed.
Speaker 2: Now you're welcome, Okay, please come over back to where
Speaker 2: we were out louders. A big thank you to all
Speaker 2: of you for being with us on this Monday, and
Speaker 2: of course to our fabulous team for putting the show together.
Speaker 1: Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton Fenton. In
Speaker 1: case you hadn't heard, visit Fenton and Fenton dot com
Speaker 1: dot au. Great stuff there.
Speaker 4: And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description,