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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm

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Speaker 2: Holly wayIn Wright.

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Speaker 3: I'm Meya Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm a

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Speaker 3: little irritable. Would you like to know why I'm irritable today?

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Speaker 3: It is because over the weekend I went to the

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Speaker 3: gym because all the people on the Instagram a telling me,

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Speaker 3: I need you got to limp and if you gotta

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Speaker 3: lift heavy, however much you're lifting, lift more.

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Speaker 2: Was a big conversation on mid the other.

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Speaker 3: Wak exactly right, And I listened to that and I went,

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Speaker 3: all right, bone density tick, gonna.

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Speaker 4: Go and lift heavy.

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Speaker 3: So I went and I lifted four kilos heavier than

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Speaker 3: I normally would.

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Speaker 4: I did well. This was like I was doing like

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Speaker 4: a squat.

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Speaker 3: Thing and I got a twelve kilo ped all bell

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Speaker 3: whatever you call it. Anyway, I did a squat and

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Speaker 3: I felt my lower back go and like it was

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Speaker 3: in the first two minutes of being at the gym,

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Speaker 3: and I have been limping all.

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Speaker 4: Weekend, because it's not like you can stop lifting.

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Speaker 3: I've got a twelve kilo toddler who isn't just a

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Speaker 3: dead weight.

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Speaker 4: She actually resists.

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Speaker 3: Against me a lot of the time when I'm holding her. Now,

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Speaker 3: I just have this terrible back.

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Speaker 1: That's funny because I was also lifting on the weekend,

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Speaker 1: and I lifted a bit hard too. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I did twelve kilos, but somehow lifting a toddler doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel as heavy as lifting a weight.

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Speaker 3: It does mean when they're trying to throw themselves out

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Speaker 3: of your hand.

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Speaker 1: But I've also been lifting a little hard.

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Speaker 4: Holly has your back, mate.

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Speaker 2: The only thing I lifted on the weekend was a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea in a sandwich, So my back's just fine.

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Speaker 2: I'm ignoring all that wise health advice anyway. Friends, unless

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Speaker 2: you're perhaps wisely avoiding everything news, you would know that

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Speaker 2: this weekend America back to Israel's war with Iran, and

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Speaker 2: talk of what this escalation means for the world is everywhere.

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Speaker 2: If you want a calm headed explainer of that, please

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Speaker 2: go and listen to today's episode of The Quickie, where

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Speaker 2: Claire Murphy and Taylor Strano do what they do best

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Speaker 2: and give a very clear overview, complete with some expert commentary.

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Speaker 2: It's really good listen.

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Speaker 1: But here is what is on our agenda for today.

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Speaker 3: We're going to unpackage because the jury is out and

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Speaker 3: I'm part of the jury.

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Speaker 2: I tried to sneak it in twice last week. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm doubting it.

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Speaker 1: I am responsible for this new piece of podcast furniture

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Speaker 1: agenda sogenda is vernacular that we use. We do when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about put that on the agenda. Usually it's

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Speaker 1: before we have dinner. I used this with a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of groups, so a portmanteau it is of and agenda.

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Speaker 2: It's not really clear why our agenda has anything to

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Speaker 2: do with the vagina, but it does. Sometimes we actually

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Speaker 2: have a vagenda notesapp going we do for dinner where

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Speaker 2: we put the things in.

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Speaker 1: Well, because I'm just like a group of women talking

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Speaker 1: about some things, they have some things on the vergenda.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to

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Speaker 1: be thought of this series. Well. Anyway, on our agenda

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Speaker 1: for today, if you haven't heard about the wedding of

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Speaker 1: the year that's happening in Venice this week, you won't

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Speaker 1: be able to miss it. Pretty soon, Amazon founded Jeff

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Speaker 1: Bezos and astronaut Lauren Sanchez and making it official, and

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Speaker 1: we are going to unpack the twenty seven dresses, the protests,

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Speaker 1: and the affair that kicked it all off.

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Speaker 2: What you have heard of friends is let them. And

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Speaker 2: if you came to our Mama Maya out loud live show,

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Speaker 2: you've also heard a foul mouthed version of that. But

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Speaker 2: there's a new one. There's a new let them. It's

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Speaker 2: called who says, Oh, we're going to tell you about that?

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Speaker 3: And Jamila Jamil is done being interviewed by other women.

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Speaker 4: Does she kind of have a point?

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Speaker 2: But first, if your dad was a Russian billionaire, would

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Speaker 2: you expect a cut of his fortune?

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Speaker 4: I think my dad is the opposite of a Russian billionaire.

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Speaker 2: No fortune coming for you. What about if you'd never

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Speaker 2: even met him? I want you to meet this guy

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Speaker 2: called Pavel Durov. Now he founded the controversial messaging platform Telegram.

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Speaker 2: You might have heard about him. He got arrested in

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Speaker 2: France a while ago. He's a little bit dubious, but anyway,

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Speaker 2: he is worth a rumored twenty one billion Australian dollars

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Speaker 2: and He also, like other billionaires, really really really likes

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Speaker 2: father and kids. Apparently between the kids his father in

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Speaker 2: what you might call the conventional way with a partner,

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Speaker 2: and the sperm donation that he kind of advertised, like

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Speaker 2: want to have my baby, come and do it. He

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Speaker 2: reckons he's got more than one hundred children, and so

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Speaker 2: far that's quite typical. There are quite a few of

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Speaker 2: these guys that called pro natalists, who believe that smart

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Speaker 2: masters of the universe, like themselves, should breed more. But

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Speaker 2: what's a bit different about him is that he's gone

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Speaker 2: public saying that in about thirty years he's going to

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Speaker 2: split his entire fortune between all of the children. So

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Speaker 2: the more than one hundred children, whether they are children

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Speaker 2: that he has fathered actively or just the sperm donory ones,

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Speaker 2: that will probably mean, depending on how many more he has,

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Speaker 2: that these kids will get about two hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: million each.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So what he's done this is really interesting. He's essentially

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Speaker 1: gamified it and it'll now become like a hunger game

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Speaker 1: situation among women who want to have children and have

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Speaker 1: access to that kind of life. The lottery.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is this term that I learned over the

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Speaker 3: weekend called accidental incest, which is being referred to because

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Speaker 3: you do have some sperm donors who are donating so

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Speaker 3: much and creating so many kids. There was an instance

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Speaker 3: in Australia where woman was talking about it where she

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Speaker 3: said that people that were half siblings were finding each

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Speaker 3: other at parties not knowing that they were half siblings.

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Speaker 1: Did you watch that documentary The Man with one hundred

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Speaker 1: Children a thousand? That was about exactly this. And there

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Speaker 1: are these men, the pro natalists or whatever their issue

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Speaker 1: is or their reasoning for it, is that they are

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Speaker 1: just spreading their sperm literally everywhere. And most sperm banks

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Speaker 1: in most countries and states have limitations on how many

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Speaker 1: times you can donate for this exact way, because in

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Speaker 1: a particular town, for example, you can't have too many

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Speaker 1: kids that are around the same age they might you know,

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Speaker 1: hook up. But these men get around it by going

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Speaker 1: to different countries because there's not like one international sperm

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Speaker 1: bank that regulates these things. So it's a real issue.

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Speaker 3: I'm worried about the proliferation of these precise genes right

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Speaker 3: because it's like, what are we genetically privileging? If you're

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Speaker 3: a pro natalist you're a particular type of person. Think

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Speaker 3: about Elon Musk. What does that do to the human race?

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Speaker 3: If you've got a very specific type of man who

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Speaker 3: is fathering hundreds and hundreds of children like that is

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Speaker 3: worrying going forward.

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Speaker 4: Jamila Jamil is.

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Speaker 3: Done being interviewed by women. Jamil is a thirty nine

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Speaker 3: year old actress. People might know her from The Good Place.

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Speaker 3: She was in that, but she's more so known as

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Speaker 3: a body positivity advocate. She was very vocal when the

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Speaker 3: Kardashians were spooking their dietees, and she hosted a podcast

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Speaker 3: called Iway with Umila Jamil, which was very very popular. Recently,

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Speaker 3: she was actually a guest on No Filter. She was

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Speaker 3: in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I have seen her in The Good Place. She was

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Speaker 1: great in that, but more people would probably know her

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Speaker 1: from Instagram. She's a feminist, well, she's identified as a

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Speaker 1: feminism and speaks out about all different kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: She's very outspoken on.

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Speaker 4: A bit of a commentator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and over the weekend she published a sub stack

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Speaker 3: with the subject line I think I'm done being interviewed

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Speaker 3: by women. I am disgusted, and she says her trust

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Speaker 3: has been broken for the last time after a toothy

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Speaker 3: opinion piece in the UK Times, which we're going to

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Speaker 3: get to in a moment, but after being interviewed in

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Speaker 3: print for more than seventeen years, she says she's only

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Speaker 3: been treated fairly by women three times, where she says

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Speaker 3: that male journalists have always given her a fair shot.

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Speaker 3: When she read the profile, which was written to promote

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Speaker 3: schod new podcast out called Wrong Turns and a Pixar

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Speaker 3: movie called Elio where she voices one of the characters,

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Speaker 3: she said it was like reading the gossip section of

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Speaker 3: her Wikipedia page. She said it was cheap and bit

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Speaker 3: she intended to embarrass her. And we don't interview men

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Speaker 3: like this, opening with paragraphs about all of their controversies. Holly,

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Speaker 3: before we go any further, can you give us a

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Speaker 3: sense of our primary source here the Times piece? What

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Speaker 3: was the vibe of the Times piece?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so it was written by a journalist called Liz Edwards,

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Speaker 2: and Jamala Jamil makes the point in her piece that

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Speaker 2: usually she's a travel writer at the time, so that's

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Speaker 2: kind of true. She does do a lot of travel content.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things that is eye opening about

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Speaker 2: this really is that when I read it. It didn't

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Speaker 2: strike me as particularly toothy, but I see Jamala's points.

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Speaker 2: So here's just a taste of it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So the first thing is is that the online headline

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Speaker 2: is Jamala Jamil I stood up for Megan long before

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Speaker 2: I met her, referencing Meghan Markle. It has a different

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Speaker 2: headline in the actuals. I think it's from the magazine

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Speaker 2: from Sunday Time with magazine, and it starts like this,

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Speaker 2: It says Jamala Jamal says she does not need your approval.

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Speaker 2: I don't personally like that many people, so I think

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Speaker 2: it's ridiculous for me to expect other people like me,

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Speaker 2: says the thirty nine year old TV presenter Da Da

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Speaker 2: Da Da Da. Talk about her social media rows, as

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Speaker 2: they say, and they cherry pick a few comments when

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Speaker 2: she called a famous actor a freshly wanked cock, for example,

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Speaker 2: and she said some pissy things about several people. And

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Speaker 2: then the writer says, all of this might mean you'd

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Speaker 2: expect her to be prickly company, but she's more cats

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Speaker 2: poor than cactus spikes. She's in velvet. She's funny and

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Speaker 2: self aware and disarmingly polite to me, to the hotel

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Speaker 2: bar staff, whose best efforts at finding us at the

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Speaker 2: quiet table come to nothing, and to the waiters.

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: So this to any journalist, they're establishing color right like,

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Speaker 2: they're giving you a sense of the person. This is

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Speaker 2: what profiles do. She goes on to talk about what

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Speaker 2: she's wearing, what she looks like. She says that she

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Speaker 2: looks great in what she's wearing. It takes a bit

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Speaker 2: of a turn. The writer talks about some of Jamila

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Speaker 2: Jamil's stated life story, which is she says she has

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Speaker 2: had several different health issues, She's struggled with the eating disorder,

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Speaker 2: She's been in two different car accidents. And the rider

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Speaker 2: seems to be saying a lot of things have happened

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Speaker 2: to Jamila.

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Speaker 3: Which the writer isn't the first person to say that.

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Speaker 3: There's been enormous controversy and kind of an internet massive

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Speaker 3: discussion about whether or not some of those claims are true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the journalist brings up, for example, a spat

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Speaker 2: I guess a social media spat she had with Piers Morgan,

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Speaker 2: and Jamil says, I have no interest in even continuing

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Speaker 2: this line of conversation. Jamil now says, coolly, echoed by

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Speaker 2: alarmed murmurs from her publicists at the next table, foolishness

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Speaker 2: is something we should discourage in the media. She records

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Speaker 2: our whole conversation, if I go down in flames, I

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Speaker 2: want to go down in flames based on my own words,

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Speaker 2: not via made up nonsense. And then, and this line

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Speaker 2: is one that Jamela particularly took issue with. The writer says,

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Speaker 2: the clause retract and congeniality resumes. As we chat over

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Speaker 2: the array of tapas that arrives.

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Speaker 3: The clause is are loaded. There is something sexist about that.

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Speaker 3: You would not use that terminology about a man. And

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Speaker 3: a lot of what Jamila Jamil writes is true, and

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Speaker 3: she's right, but there's an irony to it because I

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Speaker 3: thought that some of what Jamil wrote in her substack

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Speaker 3: was also laced with a little bit of sexism about

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Speaker 3: the writer.

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Speaker 4: Did anyone else notice that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I think is hard to

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Speaker 2: unpick here is celebrity profile writing suddenly feels very different now,

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Speaker 2: and it's not as in the form is not like

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Speaker 2: the way that this article starts. Jamila Jimil says she

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Speaker 2: doesn't need to approval full stop. It's like classic magazine writing.

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Speaker 2: You start with a really pithy line, a statement, and

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Speaker 2: then you're building a case. Almost That's what every profile

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Speaker 2: writer does, is they meet a person, they spend some

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Speaker 2: time with them, and then they're kind of laying out

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Speaker 2: their case. And this is what Jamil takes issue with.

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Speaker 2: She says, you know, why are they always prosecuting me

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Speaker 2: and whether or not I have a right to say things,

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Speaker 2: you know, my personality rather than my work. And this

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Speaker 2: is something we've discussed on this podcast a lot. Women

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Speaker 2: do very often get judged much more for who they

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Speaker 2: are than what they do. One of the things I

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Speaker 2: have issue with here is I also think this is

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Speaker 2: how male profile happened to a little bit less commentary

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Speaker 2: on what they're wearing. But this is the nature of

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Speaker 2: the beast with a celebrity profile. And now that we

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Speaker 2: all speak so directly, like when Jamela, for example, was

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Speaker 2: on Now Filter with kateline Brook, brilliant interview, really insightful,

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Speaker 2: she is entirely presenting herself right. There's no editorializing, and

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why it feels so authentic

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Speaker 2: and real, Whereas the whole point of a celebrity profile

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Speaker 2: is it as editorialized right, Maya.

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Speaker 1: I find this whole thing completely exhausting, completely exhausting. I

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Speaker 1: find to be Frank Jamila Jamil pretty exhausting. I think

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Speaker 1: she's quite typical of a certain type of online personality.

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Speaker 1: And I probably used to be a bit this myself

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Speaker 1: many years ago, until I made a conscious decision not

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Speaker 1: to be. It's like, you want to dish it out,

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Speaker 1: but then when someone criticizes you, despite her saying, including

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Speaker 1: in this profile, she says, perhaps this is my superpower.

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Speaker 1: It makes me untouchable and quite dangerous. I'm immune to

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Speaker 1: being judged because I don't care. Except she does care,

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Speaker 1: to the point where she's written this multi thousand word

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Speaker 1: takedown on substack, which is absolutely her right, and I

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Speaker 1: have to say I empathize.

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Speaker 2: With her a lot.

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Speaker 1: I've had profiles written of me that have made me

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Speaker 1: feel exactly like this.

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Speaker 2: I remember in the earlier years of me working with you, Mia,

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Speaker 2: I remember in our old office, an esteemed publication was

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Speaker 2: doing a profile. A journalist basically followed you around for

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Speaker 2: a couple of days, right, sat in on a few meetings,

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Speaker 2: interviews you like, this is how profiles work. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: how how do you feel about those or did you

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Speaker 2: feel about those It's not necessarily that specific one, but

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Speaker 2: those pieces that sort of conceit of journalism. How did

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Speaker 2: it make you feel when you saw yourself reflected in

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Speaker 2: those eyes.

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Speaker 1: There's a good reason they don't do them anymore, because

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Speaker 1: they have to find an angle. It's not a what's

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Speaker 1: you know called a hagiography, It's not a fluff piece. No,

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Speaker 1: And she says, why didn't she engage with me about

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Speaker 1: the issues I talk about? It's like, it's not up

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Speaker 1: to you. You're not the editor of the Times. You

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Speaker 1: don't get to decide what this journalist says about you.

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Speaker 1: Another one of her complaints is that this woman who

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Speaker 1: didn't know me, who didn't know anyone who knows me,

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Speaker 1: how very DAEs she write about me in this way?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, well, that's how interviews work, Like that's

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Speaker 1: actually how interviews work. And then she goes on to say, well,

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed people and this is how I do it.

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Speaker 1: What I thought about is, in this age of social media,

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Speaker 1: when everybody's used to being able to speak for themselves

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Speaker 1: and control the narrative, when someone else speaks about you,

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Speaker 1: it's suddenly like, how very dare you, and again I

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Speaker 1: also know how that feels too.

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Speaker 3: If I was sitting in the editorial team for The Times,

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Speaker 3: my defense would be, it is a profile promoting Jamila Jamil.

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Speaker 3: There was a photo shoot involved in it. She was

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Speaker 3: getting something very clear out of this. It wasn't a

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Speaker 3: community service engagement, and she wasn't there being the face

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Speaker 3: of a charity. She was there promoting her work, which

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Speaker 3: is her right, and her work is a new podcast

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Speaker 3: called Wrong Turns. That podcast is all about failures, embarrassing moments,

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Speaker 3: perhaps vulnerabilities. Yes, what the author wrote about was thematically

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Speaker 3: not irrelevant, like you could see how even I'm a

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Speaker 3: pervert for failure or whatever was the line, It was

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Speaker 3: sort of relevant to the subject matter.

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Speaker 1: But I think that people have really got to understand,

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Speaker 1: including people who are interviewed, is the journalist doesn't choose

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Speaker 1: the headline, doesn't choose the pool quotes. So those quotes

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Speaker 1: that come out, that's all chosen by the sub editor

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Speaker 1: or by the editor, And of course it's designed to

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Speaker 1: take the most interesting, controversial part of the interview in

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Speaker 1: the same way that she did that with hers by

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Speaker 1: using the very rage baity headline I'm done being interviewed

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Speaker 1: by women, which she did the exact same thing.

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Speaker 2: That's what I take issue in a bit, because I

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Speaker 2: think she's got a lot, as we've discussed, she's got

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Speaker 2: a lot of fair points about it. It is true that

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Speaker 2: women can be very highly critical of other women. We're

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Speaker 2: very aware of that. But by doing that and taking

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Speaker 2: that headline, for a start, it makes every female journalist,

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Speaker 2: probably including myself, very defensive because you're like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're not all out here trying to take people down.

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Speaker 2: But also it is rage bait, just in the way

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Speaker 2: that she complained that the reason that the Times Online

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Speaker 2: editor chose the Megan Markel quote, which was one tiny

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Speaker 2: bit of the interview where basically the journalist says, do

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Speaker 2: you know Megan, do hang out? And she's like no,

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Speaker 2: Like I was interviewed by I once, I defended her

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Speaker 2: publicly in the same way of defendants of women who

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Speaker 2: are criticized.

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Speaker 1: Which was a very understandable question. And I have to

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Speaker 1: say all three of us have read the original source

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Speaker 1: materials as well as Jamila Jamil's piece, and that was

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Speaker 1: in the context of her talking about how her and

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend moved to La You know She's also been

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Speaker 1: interviewed on Megan's podcast Jamila Lamil. So it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: crazy question to say, hey, did you hang out? There's

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Speaker 1: another couple there that have also moved from the UK

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Speaker 1: and around the same time, do you guys hang out?

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Speaker 1: It was a reasonable question and she was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've had dinner a bit like.

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Speaker 2: I know, but it's been pulled as the news line,

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Speaker 2: which is what every journalist does, right as you pull

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Speaker 2: the news line the most interesting, sallacious bits.

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Speaker 1: That's not the journalist's fault because they write the piece

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Speaker 1: and they don't know what's going to be pulled out

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Speaker 1: as the headline or as the pull quote. That's not

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Speaker 1: in their control.

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Speaker 3: So what I struggle with, and I've seen this within

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Speaker 3: feminists fears quite a bit lately, which is that someone

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Speaker 3: sees something that they think is sexist or misogynistic by

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Speaker 3: another woman, and then in the name of feminism, they

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Speaker 3: call that woman old or ugly or a pick me

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Speaker 3: girl or something, or a misogynist, which which I still go, mate,

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Speaker 3: you're using the same trope. So for example, there was

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Speaker 3: one line where she said, please God, may I never

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Speaker 3: find this is Jimi La Jamil Please, God, may I

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Speaker 3: never find myself middle aged dedicated to taking women trying

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Speaker 3: to do something positive in the world down a peg

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Speaker 3: or two. I hope I'm still directing my energy towards progress,

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Speaker 3: not taking the bins out for the patriarchy for a

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Speaker 3: paycheck and a pat on the head. There were lines

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Speaker 3: like that in it that I just thought that just

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Speaker 3: feels as though it's laced with sexism in the same way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a certain type of online feminist who I've

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Speaker 1: read described as a self aggrandizing and abrasive version of

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Speaker 1: feminism that they're peddling. So it's they'll really dish it out,

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Speaker 1: but then when it comes back to them, they cri misogyny,

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Speaker 1: they cry how unfair it is, and it's just very

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Speaker 1: I don't know, either you're in the arena or you're

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Speaker 1: not in the arena.

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Speaker 2: But well, yes, but not everything's fair in the arena, right,

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Speaker 2: Like I think it's fair enough to call out when

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Speaker 2: you've been misrepresented. I think it's fair enough to call

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Speaker 2: out when something's damaging or defamatory or whatever. Like, I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's fair to go in the name of

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Speaker 2: selling a TV show. You should be fair game for

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Speaker 2: all kinds.

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Speaker 1: But whole Why does she keep saying I'm immune to

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Speaker 1: being judged. I don't care what people think of me.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what people think of me. And then

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Speaker 1: there's a profile and again she talks about I did

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Speaker 1: contact the journalist. There's been no response, no apology, no deletion,

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Speaker 1: no removal of the piece. And it's like this other

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Speaker 1: media the world, this is the Internet. And if you're

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Speaker 1: going to again, if you're going to be in the arena,

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Speaker 1: you're probably going to get a bloody nose in the arena.

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Speaker 1: And as a woman of color, she cops so much

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Speaker 1: more than most women. And it's true, she gets trolled.

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Speaker 1: Every woman online does she does that little.

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Speaker 3: Bit more well, and outspoken women do cop it more.

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Speaker 3: And I think that you could read a profile on

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Speaker 3: someone like Harvey Weinstein and he wouldn't be described as controversial.

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Speaker 3: Like controversial every woman in the public eye is described.

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Speaker 2: That's true. Even the word outspoken. How often do you

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Speaker 2: hear Troman being described as outspoken. I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of truth in what she says. It just really

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Speaker 2: riles me that in saying it, she has smeared a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of women in a moment the new theory

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Speaker 2: that challenges MeTL robins Let them friends? Why do you

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Speaker 2: wear a bra?

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Speaker 4: Because I'd hit myself in the face if I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that my boobs don't hurt yourself?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because it's I.

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Speaker 1: Feel uncomfortable, although I also feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: So the reason I'm asking this question is because of

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Speaker 2: a story that I just read. It's an important part

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Speaker 2: in this column I just read by the Herald journalist

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Speaker 2: Kate Halfpenny about a counterpoint to the let them obsession.

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Speaker 2: She is writing in defense of the who says theory

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Speaker 2: and let me explain the bra bit. She opens with

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Speaker 2: the story of a friend who was complaining that her

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Speaker 2: bra was cutting into her shoulders right, and a friend

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Speaker 2: who was with her said that she never wears a bra,

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Speaker 2: particularly in winter when you've got five layers on, like

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Speaker 2: who knows whether your boobs are down round your waist

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Speaker 2: or up near your chin, and said, why would you

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Speaker 2: wear one unless you were meeting the bank manager. The conversation,

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Speaker 2: Kate writes, spurred Amy to do two things. First, abandon

431
00:21:17,422 --> 00:21:21,181
Speaker 2: a bra unless she's working out. Second, ask why it

432
00:21:21,222 --> 00:21:23,862
Speaker 2: took her until she was forty to question doing something

433
00:21:23,942 --> 00:21:27,821
Speaker 2: every day that she hated. Now she asks who says

434
00:21:27,901 --> 00:21:30,341
Speaker 2: when making decisions, Who says you have to wear a

435
00:21:30,422 --> 00:21:34,022
Speaker 2: wretched undergarment just to create a pleasing silhouette. Who says

436
00:21:34,061 --> 00:21:37,022
Speaker 2: you have to have porridge if you want pancakes? Who

437
00:21:37,141 --> 00:21:41,142
Speaker 2: says you have to behave mia. Let them was your

438
00:21:41,182 --> 00:21:44,061
Speaker 2: word of the year this year, but your relationship with

439
00:21:44,101 --> 00:21:44,862
Speaker 2: it has changed.

440
00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:48,061
Speaker 1: I think that this idea of let them is very

441
00:21:48,141 --> 00:21:51,861
Speaker 1: linked with passivity, and that can sometimes be a good

442
00:21:51,861 --> 00:21:54,341
Speaker 1: thing because we can twist ourselves into notts about things

443
00:21:54,341 --> 00:21:59,381
Speaker 1: we can't change people in our lives, geopolitical situations, and

444
00:21:59,422 --> 00:22:02,022
Speaker 1: so let them was just basically the only thing you

445
00:22:02,022 --> 00:22:04,942
Speaker 1: can control is how you feel about a situation. We

446
00:22:05,022 --> 00:22:06,661
Speaker 1: sort of started to talk we talked about on the

447
00:22:06,702 --> 00:22:10,942
Speaker 1: show about Michelle. Obama brought a slightly different energy, which

448
00:22:10,982 --> 00:22:14,222
Speaker 1: is a little bit more fuck em, which is kind

449
00:22:14,262 --> 00:22:17,821
Speaker 1: of like, you don't have to be all sort of

450
00:22:17,861 --> 00:22:21,181
Speaker 1: Buddhist and zen about these terrible things that are happening,

451
00:22:21,262 --> 00:22:23,222
Speaker 1: or these people that you don't like, all these situations

452
00:22:23,262 --> 00:22:25,982
Speaker 1: that you're not comfortable with. You can actually be a

453
00:22:26,022 --> 00:22:27,262
Speaker 1: little bit more burn it down.

454
00:22:27,702 --> 00:22:30,222
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that when we say let them.

455
00:22:30,302 --> 00:22:31,302
Speaker 1: I've tried. I've tried.

456
00:22:32,022 --> 00:22:33,742
Speaker 4: I'm not being honest with myself for others.

457
00:22:34,182 --> 00:22:36,621
Speaker 3: I sometimes you do need a little bit more venom,

458
00:22:36,782 --> 00:22:39,702
Speaker 3: which is why I think fuckham has really helped. I'm

459
00:22:39,742 --> 00:22:42,382
Speaker 3: not going to do anything like I think that Jimila

460
00:22:42,462 --> 00:22:45,061
Speaker 3: Jamial probably should have said fuck him and then like

461
00:22:45,621 --> 00:22:48,382
Speaker 3: quietly to yeah, just quietly to herself, for example, rather

462
00:22:48,422 --> 00:22:51,421
Speaker 3: than going into that fight mode, which is you know,

463
00:22:51,502 --> 00:22:55,101
Speaker 3: totally understandable as well. But I really liked the who

464
00:22:55,141 --> 00:22:58,982
Speaker 3: says theory because who says I can't wear a shirt

465
00:22:58,982 --> 00:22:59,981
Speaker 3: with a bleached stain on it?

466
00:23:00,022 --> 00:23:01,621
Speaker 4: I have two bleach stains on this shirt.

467
00:23:01,661 --> 00:23:04,981
Speaker 3: I just who says I can't wear the same jeans

468
00:23:04,982 --> 00:23:06,302
Speaker 3: and the same shoes to work every day?

469
00:23:06,422 --> 00:23:08,502
Speaker 1: Who says I have to wax or lays in my

470
00:23:08,542 --> 00:23:09,222
Speaker 1: bikini line?

471
00:23:09,821 --> 00:23:11,702
Speaker 4: It's funny. When I was going through the who says though,

472
00:23:11,782 --> 00:23:12,742
Speaker 4: I went, oh.

473
00:23:12,581 --> 00:23:18,461
Speaker 2: Maya, like, it's true that this is what Kate for one?

474
00:23:18,742 --> 00:23:20,941
Speaker 4: Who says that I can't wear the same James to

475
00:23:20,982 --> 00:23:21,581
Speaker 4: wake everything?

476
00:23:22,182 --> 00:23:25,341
Speaker 2: Kate Halfpenny was riding about that. Increasingly, it feels like

477
00:23:25,381 --> 00:23:27,781
Speaker 2: there's an army of people on the Internet giving us

478
00:23:27,821 --> 00:23:29,982
Speaker 2: more rules, like more rules all the time, rules about

479
00:23:29,982 --> 00:23:34,182
Speaker 2: your face, rules about your food, rule camelte, rules about

480
00:23:34,182 --> 00:23:36,462
Speaker 2: your gene shape, rules about your socks, ruled about shoes.

481
00:23:36,462 --> 00:23:40,102
Speaker 2: And she's like, we all absorb them and then constantly

482
00:23:40,182 --> 00:23:43,262
Speaker 2: feel like we're wrong. And she's like, the anecdote about

483
00:23:43,262 --> 00:23:45,461
Speaker 2: the bra is kind of like, obviously, if it's for

484
00:23:45,502 --> 00:23:48,502
Speaker 2: your comfort, go for it. But if it's just because

485
00:23:48,901 --> 00:23:51,661
Speaker 2: the world has decided there should be something between your

486
00:23:51,742 --> 00:23:55,542
Speaker 2: nipples and your outer garments. Who says, I like this

487
00:23:55,702 --> 00:23:58,182
Speaker 2: energy and I should have written this bloody story because

488
00:23:58,341 --> 00:24:00,221
Speaker 2: I have a post it on the wall of my

489
00:24:00,302 --> 00:24:03,781
Speaker 2: office that says, you don't have to and it is

490
00:24:03,861 --> 00:24:05,782
Speaker 2: like my little mantra because for.

491
00:24:05,901 --> 00:24:11,061
Speaker 3: Someone with that post at Hollywayen right, you things that

492
00:24:11,141 --> 00:24:11,861
Speaker 3: you don't want to do.

493
00:24:12,422 --> 00:24:14,101
Speaker 2: I know, but you know how it's supposed to be

494
00:24:14,101 --> 00:24:16,861
Speaker 2: my year of not which is clearly going on really

495
00:24:16,901 --> 00:24:20,341
Speaker 2: really well. But as me and well as you guys

496
00:24:20,341 --> 00:24:22,821
Speaker 2: know very well, I don't like feeling like I have

497
00:24:22,901 --> 00:24:25,422
Speaker 2: to do things, and I get a lot of freedom

498
00:24:25,462 --> 00:24:27,581
Speaker 2: when I can reframe it. It's like, you don't have to,

499
00:24:27,661 --> 00:24:30,022
Speaker 2: but you're choosing to, even if it's kind of bush.

500
00:24:30,061 --> 00:24:32,502
Speaker 1: So I sometimes get this phrase in my head, you're

501
00:24:32,502 --> 00:24:34,302
Speaker 1: not the boss of me. Yeah, exactly right.

502
00:24:34,381 --> 00:24:36,942
Speaker 2: It's like that. So it's like I don't have to

503
00:24:36,982 --> 00:24:39,421
Speaker 2: be governed by my group chats. I don't have to

504
00:24:40,262 --> 00:24:43,221
Speaker 2: like look forty when I'm fifty. I don't have to

505
00:24:44,022 --> 00:24:45,981
Speaker 2: say yes to everything everyone asked me to do. That

506
00:24:46,022 --> 00:24:49,182
Speaker 2: would make so life easier. It's like who says, who says?

507
00:24:49,621 --> 00:24:50,901
Speaker 2: It's a little bit toddler though, isn't it?

508
00:24:50,861 --> 00:24:51,942
Speaker 4: It's very two year old.

509
00:24:52,101 --> 00:24:55,061
Speaker 1: I don't think it always is, because sometimes it's just

510
00:24:55,101 --> 00:25:00,102
Speaker 1: about really challenging your own internalized preconceptions, because you're right,

511
00:25:00,141 --> 00:25:04,861
Speaker 1: you're like, well, who says and apart from me says like, well, why,

512
00:25:05,141 --> 00:25:07,581
Speaker 1: I remember once interviewing someone and I can't even remember

513
00:25:07,581 --> 00:25:10,101
Speaker 1: how it came up because I'm soogynist, and I was

514
00:25:10,141 --> 00:25:13,102
Speaker 1: asking her about VPL Remember when that was the thing

515
00:25:13,182 --> 00:25:14,182
Speaker 1: visible panty line?

516
00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:15,982
Speaker 4: Oh you've never never taken that a.

517
00:25:15,942 --> 00:25:18,621
Speaker 1: Long time ago, And she's just like, well, who says

518
00:25:18,661 --> 00:25:20,461
Speaker 1: it has to be something that you're ashamed of? Who

519
00:25:20,502 --> 00:25:22,982
Speaker 1: says it's something that you should have to try and hide?

520
00:25:23,302 --> 00:25:25,461
Speaker 3: See, I think that my mantra is a little bit

521
00:25:25,542 --> 00:25:28,502
Speaker 3: it's none of my business, Like my VPL. My visible

522
00:25:28,542 --> 00:25:29,821
Speaker 3: panty line, which I know I have, is none of

523
00:25:29,821 --> 00:25:31,542
Speaker 3: my business because I can't say, only you can.

524
00:25:31,782 --> 00:25:33,462
Speaker 4: But then you bring it up, and that's who says.

525
00:25:33,302 --> 00:25:40,702
Speaker 5: Then I says, Mia says after the break, We've got

526
00:25:40,742 --> 00:25:45,702
Speaker 5: some scarless gossip about Katie Perry. Every Tuesday and Thursday

527
00:25:45,742 --> 00:25:47,742
Speaker 5: we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out

528
00:25:47,742 --> 00:25:50,621
Speaker 5: Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers. Follow the

529
00:25:50,661 --> 00:25:52,581
Speaker 5: link in the show notes to get your daily dose

530
00:25:52,621 --> 00:25:55,222
Speaker 5: of Out Loud and a big thank you to everyone

531
00:25:55,341 --> 00:25:56,621
Speaker 5: who is already subscribed.

532
00:26:03,381 --> 00:26:07,061
Speaker 3: Friends, I would never engage in scroless gossip. I'm above it,

533
00:26:07,381 --> 00:26:11,222
Speaker 3: unlike you to. However, the news is bleak. There is

534
00:26:11,262 --> 00:26:13,101
Speaker 3: a lot going on in the world keeping me and

535
00:26:13,182 --> 00:26:15,022
Speaker 3: others up at night, and so I would like for

536
00:26:15,222 --> 00:26:19,101
Speaker 3: just one moment to reflect upon Katy Perry's alleged separation

537
00:26:19,222 --> 00:26:22,101
Speaker 3: from Orlando Bloom, for which we have little to note proof.

538
00:26:22,222 --> 00:26:24,502
Speaker 2: Are you ready will allow how alleged is it?

539
00:26:24,821 --> 00:26:27,901
Speaker 4: Sources? Tell people? Okay, can you give me a percentage

540
00:26:27,942 --> 00:26:28,181
Speaker 4: on that?

541
00:26:28,381 --> 00:26:30,142
Speaker 1: Oh, People magazine, People Magazine.

542
00:26:30,182 --> 00:26:31,341
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty solid.

543
00:26:31,381 --> 00:26:34,302
Speaker 1: That's pretty much like a publicist making an announcement. Great, Okay,

544
00:26:34,341 --> 00:26:36,821
Speaker 1: that's or you make announcement on the notes app.

545
00:26:36,702 --> 00:26:37,341
Speaker 4: Great, Okay.

546
00:26:37,901 --> 00:26:40,661
Speaker 3: So the pair met in twenty sixteen and then in

547
00:26:40,661 --> 00:26:42,941
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen they actually had a year long break, but

548
00:26:42,942 --> 00:26:45,141
Speaker 3: then they got back together. They had a daughter who

549
00:26:45,182 --> 00:26:47,381
Speaker 3: can remember her name Daisy, Yes, because she brought the

550
00:26:47,462 --> 00:26:48,381
Speaker 3: Daisy to space.

551
00:26:48,262 --> 00:26:52,341
Speaker 2: Wasting my brain cells. Since nineteen ninety.

552
00:26:52,061 --> 00:26:58,381
Speaker 3: Five, there are reports that Orlando Bloom mocked Katy Perry's

553
00:26:58,381 --> 00:26:59,022
Speaker 3: space flight.

554
00:26:59,621 --> 00:27:00,141
Speaker 5: Very dare he?

555
00:27:00,381 --> 00:27:01,101
Speaker 4: How dare he?

556
00:27:01,222 --> 00:27:03,782
Speaker 3: Because he would have gone up there in a heartbeat?

557
00:27:03,982 --> 00:27:06,302
Speaker 3: Are you telling me that Orlando Bloom would have said no?

558
00:27:06,861 --> 00:27:08,502
Speaker 3: Like he is so a go to space guy?

559
00:27:08,621 --> 00:27:10,701
Speaker 2: Is this the story that the reason they've broken up

560
00:27:10,782 --> 00:27:11,782
Speaker 2: is he was embarrassed by that.

561
00:27:11,942 --> 00:27:12,942
Speaker 4: So there are a few reasons.

562
00:27:13,101 --> 00:27:15,302
Speaker 3: One is that they got into a fight about the

563
00:27:15,302 --> 00:27:17,741
Speaker 3: spaceflight and he said, I told you not to do it,

564
00:27:17,782 --> 00:27:19,462
Speaker 3: I told you they'd be BackFlash and you didn't listen

565
00:27:19,502 --> 00:27:21,181
Speaker 3: to me. Apparently that fight happened in the middle of

566
00:27:21,182 --> 00:27:23,262
Speaker 3: the night, which I just feel like is an important tatail.

567
00:27:23,381 --> 00:27:25,101
Speaker 2: So the leak's here are the house staff?

568
00:27:25,262 --> 00:27:26,182
Speaker 1: Okay, we've got.

569
00:27:26,022 --> 00:27:27,381
Speaker 4: It, or Daisy.

570
00:27:28,381 --> 00:27:30,981
Speaker 3: The second thing is there are reports that he is

571
00:27:31,022 --> 00:27:33,701
Speaker 3: going to the Bezos wedding without her.

572
00:27:34,022 --> 00:27:35,862
Speaker 4: Because she's in Australia tour Australia.

573
00:27:36,341 --> 00:27:38,981
Speaker 3: She was at Laurence hend she was exactly and she

574
00:27:39,022 --> 00:27:41,381
Speaker 3: can't go because she's in Australia and she's mad because

575
00:27:41,422 --> 00:27:43,821
Speaker 3: she's like, Orlando, you're having a go at me for

576
00:27:43,901 --> 00:27:45,742
Speaker 3: doing Blue Origin, but you're going to Lauren's wedding.

577
00:27:46,262 --> 00:27:47,421
Speaker 4: So apparently that's created a.

578
00:27:47,702 --> 00:27:49,701
Speaker 1: Bit different going to wedding and going to Spain.

579
00:27:49,742 --> 00:27:52,581
Speaker 3: But apparently they're not even Orlando's friends, they're her friends.

580
00:27:53,022 --> 00:27:54,142
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't be happy.

581
00:27:54,422 --> 00:27:57,941
Speaker 3: So then sources told People earlier this month that the

582
00:27:57,982 --> 00:28:00,621
Speaker 3: reception of her new album and reviews of the tour

583
00:28:00,702 --> 00:28:02,742
Speaker 3: has caused tension in her relationships.

584
00:28:02,742 --> 00:28:03,342
Speaker 2: Still having a.

585
00:28:03,302 --> 00:28:04,262
Speaker 1: Great year, She's not.

586
00:28:04,542 --> 00:28:06,901
Speaker 2: Everyone, including lots of that lauders who've been to the

587
00:28:06,942 --> 00:28:09,542
Speaker 2: show in Australia say it's great. Just in a quick

588
00:28:09,742 --> 00:28:10,701
Speaker 2: I've heard Katy Perry.

589
00:28:10,821 --> 00:28:11,622
Speaker 4: I've heard that too.

590
00:28:12,462 --> 00:28:14,862
Speaker 3: I have just a bit of relationship advice looking at this,

591
00:28:15,101 --> 00:28:16,742
Speaker 3: and I think it's just a bit of wisdom that

592
00:28:16,782 --> 00:28:19,141
Speaker 3: we can all live by. You got to choose someone

593
00:28:19,182 --> 00:28:21,941
Speaker 3: who'd stay with you through Blue Origin. Yes, look at

594
00:28:21,982 --> 00:28:24,262
Speaker 3: your partner and go if I had my Blue Origin moment,

595
00:28:24,302 --> 00:28:25,542
Speaker 3: which we all will.

596
00:28:25,542 --> 00:28:28,022
Speaker 1: But he has he has stayed with her past that,

597
00:28:28,182 --> 00:28:30,061
Speaker 1: so people can't directly link the two.

598
00:28:30,141 --> 00:28:31,262
Speaker 2: It was five minutes ago.

599
00:28:31,702 --> 00:28:34,302
Speaker 1: I also think it could have been the final straw.

600
00:28:34,621 --> 00:28:36,661
Speaker 1: They both talked a lot about how hard it is

601
00:28:36,702 --> 00:28:37,302
Speaker 1: to be married.

602
00:28:37,742 --> 00:28:41,782
Speaker 2: I think she stayed with him. Who remembers that disastrous

603
00:28:41,782 --> 00:28:45,742
Speaker 2: interview he did speaking of profiles, speaking of profile pieces

604
00:28:45,742 --> 00:28:48,701
Speaker 2: that paint people in a bad light. Or Lando Bloom,

605
00:28:48,742 --> 00:28:51,582
Speaker 2: who last time I checked was a male. He got

606
00:28:51,622 --> 00:28:54,062
Speaker 2: slammed after he did this is my day in the

607
00:28:54,142 --> 00:28:56,661
Speaker 2: life profile, and it was like I wake up at

608
00:28:56,702 --> 00:28:59,062
Speaker 2: dawn and I measure all my sleep apps, and then

609
00:28:59,102 --> 00:29:01,181
Speaker 2: I play with Lego while I do my body's chanting,

610
00:29:01,182 --> 00:29:03,582
Speaker 2: and then I do twenty five steps in my skincare routine.

611
00:29:03,661 --> 00:29:06,102
Speaker 2: And he got slammed. And did she stand there? Yes,

612
00:29:06,222 --> 00:29:06,622
Speaker 2: she did.

613
00:29:06,702 --> 00:29:08,062
Speaker 1: All you can't back.

614
00:29:07,862 --> 00:29:10,701
Speaker 2: Away because it's damaging for you brand. It's not okay.

615
00:29:10,782 --> 00:29:13,142
Speaker 3: You know what's hard for Katie If she's in therapy

616
00:29:13,262 --> 00:29:15,622
Speaker 3: right now and she's talking about, like I did this

617
00:29:15,661 --> 00:29:17,742
Speaker 3: Blue Origin thing, blah blah blah, and if her therapist

618
00:29:17,822 --> 00:29:20,222
Speaker 3: was to say, who says it was frivolous and out

619
00:29:20,262 --> 00:29:23,902
Speaker 3: of touch everyone. Everyone don't play the who says game Katie,

620
00:29:23,902 --> 00:29:25,222
Speaker 3: it is not a good time to be playing.

621
00:29:25,262 --> 00:29:27,142
Speaker 1: I I think she has to say fuck them.

622
00:29:27,302 --> 00:29:29,102
Speaker 4: I think it's fucking for her anyway.

623
00:29:30,022 --> 00:29:33,102
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are getting married in Venice,

624
00:29:33,182 --> 00:29:37,422
Speaker 1: Italy this week, and the city's locals are pissed. This

625
00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:40,262
Speaker 1: is kind of part of a broader protest movement that's

626
00:29:40,262 --> 00:29:42,781
Speaker 1: happening around Europe about over tourism. I don't know if

627
00:29:42,782 --> 00:29:43,262
Speaker 1: you've heard.

628
00:29:43,142 --> 00:29:45,022
Speaker 2: It's been fortunate for me. I'm about to be a

629
00:29:45,062 --> 00:29:45,982
Speaker 2: tourist in your.

630
00:29:46,661 --> 00:29:48,742
Speaker 4: You might be sprayed with water pistols, I've heard.

631
00:29:49,102 --> 00:29:52,742
Speaker 1: You know, last week the Louver closed in Paris because

632
00:29:52,782 --> 00:29:55,822
Speaker 1: the staff said there's too many people coming, were overwhelmed,

633
00:29:55,902 --> 00:30:00,142
Speaker 1: were stressed, mental health is suffering, we're not working today.

634
00:30:00,222 --> 00:30:01,502
Speaker 4: Why do you think tangent?

635
00:30:01,582 --> 00:30:04,782
Speaker 3: But why do you think over tourism is more of

636
00:30:04,822 --> 00:30:06,982
Speaker 3: an issue now than it was ten years ago?

637
00:30:07,102 --> 00:30:08,542
Speaker 1: For example, I don't know.

638
00:30:08,822 --> 00:30:12,701
Speaker 2: I would like to blame Instagram ah as part of it.

639
00:30:13,262 --> 00:30:15,701
Speaker 2: In that for example, at the Louver, everybody wants to

640
00:30:15,702 --> 00:30:17,382
Speaker 2: go and get their selfie with the Mona Lisa. Do

641
00:30:17,422 --> 00:30:19,102
Speaker 2: they give a shit about the Mona Lisa or not.

642
00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:19,661
Speaker 2: Probably not.

643
00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:22,661
Speaker 3: It's probably still part of the post COVID boom, I

644
00:30:22,661 --> 00:30:23,181
Speaker 3: would imagine.

645
00:30:23,302 --> 00:30:25,461
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's also that, so no one could travel

646
00:30:25,502 --> 00:30:27,421
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and now everybody can if

647
00:30:27,422 --> 00:30:29,661
Speaker 2: they've got the disposable income to do it. And you know,

648
00:30:29,742 --> 00:30:31,661
Speaker 2: flights are cheap in certain parts of the world, and

649
00:30:32,462 --> 00:30:36,342
Speaker 2: so maybe that. But also back to Jeff and yeah, so.

650
00:30:36,622 --> 00:30:40,062
Speaker 1: This is a huge, huge deal. The protests are just

651
00:30:40,142 --> 00:30:43,822
Speaker 1: one aspect of this whole situation. But if you've been

652
00:30:43,862 --> 00:30:47,542
Speaker 1: hearing about Lauren Sanchez Jeff Bezos, obviously you'll be familiar

653
00:30:47,542 --> 00:30:50,221
Speaker 1: with him. He is the third wishest man in the world.

654
00:30:50,542 --> 00:30:53,582
Speaker 1: He's sixty one years old, and he founded Amazon.

655
00:30:54,182 --> 00:30:58,182
Speaker 2: And if you're struggling to place them, remember the Trump inauguration.

656
00:30:58,462 --> 00:30:58,982
Speaker 4: Were they there?

657
00:30:59,062 --> 00:31:01,022
Speaker 2: Remember when he had all that He had all the

658
00:31:01,062 --> 00:31:04,421
Speaker 2: tech billionaires sitting in a row, and Lauren wore a

659
00:31:04,542 --> 00:31:09,942
Speaker 2: very eye catching top. And most of the headlines at

660
00:31:09,982 --> 00:31:14,182
Speaker 2: the inauguration were actually about Lauren Sanchez's boobs and how

661
00:31:14,222 --> 00:31:17,782
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg was looking at them, rather than about anything else.

662
00:31:18,102 --> 00:31:21,502
Speaker 1: It's true, she's fifty five and their origin story Blue

663
00:31:21,542 --> 00:31:25,622
Speaker 1: origin is very interesting. Actually, he was previously married to

664
00:31:25,702 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 1: Mackenzie Scott for twenty five years since their divorce, and

665
00:31:29,022 --> 00:31:32,222
Speaker 1: she got many billions of dollars. She was instrumental when

666
00:31:32,262 --> 00:31:34,342
Speaker 1: he found out Amazon. She was very much involved in that,

667
00:31:34,902 --> 00:31:38,062
Speaker 1: and she got a huge payout when they divorced. They

668
00:31:38,102 --> 00:31:40,782
Speaker 1: had four kids together, and she's gone on to give

669
00:31:40,862 --> 00:31:45,582
Speaker 1: most of that away. She's an incredible philanthropist. Laurence Sanchez

670
00:31:45,902 --> 00:31:49,862
Speaker 1: is a third generation Mexican American. She is a journalist

671
00:31:50,022 --> 00:31:53,822
Speaker 1: and she was previously married to a very big Hollywood

672
00:31:53,862 --> 00:31:57,422
Speaker 1: agent guy called Patrick Whitzel. They were married for fourteen years.

673
00:31:57,422 --> 00:32:00,342
Speaker 1: They had two kids together, and she had another child

674
00:32:00,422 --> 00:32:03,502
Speaker 1: with an NFL player long term boyfriend of hers before

675
00:32:03,542 --> 00:32:07,062
Speaker 1: she married Patrick. Fun fact, he's gone on to marry

676
00:32:07,142 --> 00:32:10,902
Speaker 1: an Australian. But before we get to that, the most

677
00:32:10,902 --> 00:32:14,582
Speaker 1: interesting thing is they met in twenty sixteen while married

678
00:32:14,582 --> 00:32:18,582
Speaker 1: to other people. It was at an Amazon party for

679
00:32:18,742 --> 00:32:21,822
Speaker 1: the film Manchester by Sea and at the time, Patrick

680
00:32:21,862 --> 00:32:24,902
Speaker 1: Whitesell had a few of his stars that he represented

681
00:32:25,062 --> 00:32:29,102
Speaker 1: in that film and both of them were married and

682
00:32:29,222 --> 00:32:30,902
Speaker 1: their friendship grew from there.

683
00:32:31,062 --> 00:32:33,221
Speaker 2: It must have been quite the moment. I love to

684
00:32:33,222 --> 00:32:34,382
Speaker 2: think about the fireworks.

685
00:32:34,382 --> 00:32:38,022
Speaker 3: Fly wonder at weddings like this, when you do the

686
00:32:38,062 --> 00:32:41,302
Speaker 3: speeches or you do your vows and you.

687
00:32:41,342 --> 00:32:43,302
Speaker 4: Talk about whether it's love at first sight.

688
00:32:43,422 --> 00:32:45,382
Speaker 3: I wonder how much you have to cloak it when

689
00:32:45,462 --> 00:32:47,741
Speaker 3: it was a controversial meeting story, or if you just

690
00:32:47,782 --> 00:32:48,342
Speaker 3: have to own it.

691
00:32:48,422 --> 00:32:51,222
Speaker 1: No, Wow, everybody knows. And this is what's very very

692
00:32:51,222 --> 00:32:54,822
Speaker 1: interesting is that their friendship apparently deepened in twenty eighteen,

693
00:32:55,142 --> 00:32:59,022
Speaker 1: two years after meeting, when Lauren, who is a licensed

694
00:32:59,022 --> 00:33:03,062
Speaker 1: helicopter pilot, she started working with Jeff Bezos on aerial

695
00:33:03,062 --> 00:33:06,142
Speaker 1: filming projects for his space company Blue Origin. So she

696
00:33:06,222 --> 00:33:09,142
Speaker 1: goes way back with Blue Origin. So they were both

697
00:33:09,222 --> 00:33:11,542
Speaker 1: kind of essentially having this affair. I think we can

698
00:33:11,582 --> 00:33:15,742
Speaker 1: clearly say that in twenty nineteen, something really interesting happened.

699
00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:21,502
Speaker 1: They both suddenly announced their divorce. Divorce that's from their partners. Yeah,

700
00:33:21,582 --> 00:33:25,062
Speaker 1: Because what happened is that some very intimate texts and

701
00:33:25,182 --> 00:33:29,582
Speaker 1: photos on her phone somehow fell into the hands of

702
00:33:29,582 --> 00:33:32,701
Speaker 1: her brother, who then tried to sell them to the

703
00:33:32,782 --> 00:33:33,662
Speaker 1: National Enquirer.

704
00:33:34,862 --> 00:33:38,382
Speaker 2: Their hands were forced, yesly betrayal.

705
00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:41,181
Speaker 1: There was Dick Picks involved, There were nude selfies and

706
00:33:41,582 --> 00:33:43,302
Speaker 1: one of her very famous texts do you remember this?

707
00:33:43,422 --> 00:33:46,741
Speaker 1: I love you? A live girl. He called her a

708
00:33:46,862 --> 00:33:49,502
Speaker 1: live girl, And there's a really great profile of her

709
00:33:49,661 --> 00:33:52,941
Speaker 1: in the Cut this week where they sort of interview

710
00:33:52,942 --> 00:33:54,421
Speaker 1: a lot of people who've already known her in this

711
00:33:54,502 --> 00:33:58,262
Speaker 1: idea of her being a live girl. Everyone that has

712
00:33:58,302 --> 00:34:01,422
Speaker 1: ever known her says that she's always been a hustler

713
00:34:01,502 --> 00:34:05,701
Speaker 1: in a good sense. But she's always incredibly charismatic, very magnetic,

714
00:34:05,822 --> 00:34:09,542
Speaker 1: the life of the party, lights up, full of energy,

715
00:34:10,222 --> 00:34:15,102
Speaker 1: wildly ambitious, never take stepbacks badly, just will always come

716
00:34:15,142 --> 00:34:17,701
Speaker 1: back and be like you know, She's done all sorts

717
00:34:17,741 --> 00:34:21,022
Speaker 1: of really interesting things in her life. So this idea

718
00:34:21,062 --> 00:34:23,982
Speaker 1: of a live girl. He then was kind of like

719
00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:27,622
Speaker 1: a geeky, nerdy Amazon tech billionaire.

720
00:34:27,661 --> 00:34:29,062
Speaker 4: He's had a total rebrand.

721
00:34:29,221 --> 00:34:32,981
Speaker 1: He glowed up. She's always been quite very glowy. I've

722
00:34:32,982 --> 00:34:36,542
Speaker 1: watched a lot of videos about her facial transformation. She's

723
00:34:36,701 --> 00:34:41,701
Speaker 1: got that very hard bodied, big fake boobs, a lot

724
00:34:41,741 --> 00:34:45,022
Speaker 1: of very noticeable plastic surgery on her face. She's fifty

725
00:34:45,022 --> 00:34:49,462
Speaker 1: five and he's become really jacked. He shaved his head.

726
00:34:49,822 --> 00:34:53,502
Speaker 1: So they've both really clearly share this love of what

727
00:34:53,542 --> 00:34:56,261
Speaker 1: would you call it aesthetics ypt. What do we know?

728
00:34:56,661 --> 00:34:57,742
Speaker 4: What do we know about the wedding?

729
00:34:57,822 --> 00:35:00,142
Speaker 2: So the wedding is in vanit has discussed it costs

730
00:35:00,181 --> 00:35:02,301
Speaker 2: at least ten million, we think probably more so. The

731
00:35:02,302 --> 00:35:05,701
Speaker 2: protests are about the fact that Venice over Tauru said

732
00:35:05,701 --> 00:35:07,301
Speaker 2: it's going to close it down, blah blah blah. But

733
00:35:07,422 --> 00:35:09,901
Speaker 2: also it's about the idea of this spec to call

734
00:35:10,022 --> 00:35:13,421
Speaker 2: the uber rich while the world is burning. There were

735
00:35:13,462 --> 00:35:15,982
Speaker 2: lots of speculation that Trump might go. I imagine that

736
00:35:16,102 --> 00:35:18,422
Speaker 2: now he might be too busy. Yeah, but lots of

737
00:35:18,502 --> 00:35:21,341
Speaker 2: very famous people will be there. Obviously, the Kardashians will

738
00:35:21,342 --> 00:35:23,941
Speaker 2: have as strong showing. Chris Jenna will certainly be there,

739
00:35:23,982 --> 00:35:26,982
Speaker 2: that the Clooney will be there. A lot of very famous,

740
00:35:26,982 --> 00:35:28,622
Speaker 2: great and good will be there. It's all going to

741
00:35:28,622 --> 00:35:31,701
Speaker 2: be in vogue because Anna Win Tour. One of the

742
00:35:31,741 --> 00:35:33,821
Speaker 2: things I find fascinating. If you're wondering why we're telling

743
00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:35,622
Speaker 2: you about all this a it's going to be everywhere

744
00:35:35,622 --> 00:35:37,102
Speaker 2: you look by the end of this week, because this

745
00:35:37,142 --> 00:35:39,381
Speaker 2: wedding lasts for three days and it's going to be

746
00:35:39,822 --> 00:35:42,941
Speaker 2: on every screen because people want to distract themselves from

747
00:35:42,942 --> 00:35:44,982
Speaker 2: the terrible things going on. But one of the reasons.

748
00:35:45,022 --> 00:35:48,462
Speaker 2: I find them fascinating. My current obsession is like the

749
00:35:48,542 --> 00:35:51,102
Speaker 2: sort of women in the culture who are looming large,

750
00:35:51,142 --> 00:35:55,022
Speaker 2: and Sanchez is a really interesting one of those, because

751
00:35:55,422 --> 00:35:57,341
Speaker 2: it would have been not that long ago that there

752
00:35:57,342 --> 00:36:01,982
Speaker 2: would have been something kind of shameful gold diggery about

753
00:36:02,022 --> 00:36:05,502
Speaker 2: this other woman who stole Jeff Bezos away, and they

754
00:36:05,502 --> 00:36:07,821
Speaker 2: would kind of hide their light under a bushel a bit.

755
00:36:08,261 --> 00:36:11,142
Speaker 2: But Sanchez and Bezos, as you were just saying me,

756
00:36:11,422 --> 00:36:14,661
Speaker 2: have like been massively out and proud with this. And

757
00:36:14,701 --> 00:36:18,862
Speaker 2: she is a very like archetype of aspiration, like looking

758
00:36:18,862 --> 00:36:21,982
Speaker 2: the way she looks, which is not fifty five, for example,

759
00:36:22,422 --> 00:36:25,981
Speaker 2: the way they spend their money, which is incredibly sort

760
00:36:25,982 --> 00:36:29,502
Speaker 2: of up. There's yachts and there's It's really interesting because

761
00:36:29,582 --> 00:36:31,062
Speaker 2: I think that's not as long as her we were

762
00:36:31,181 --> 00:36:33,261
Speaker 2: out luck, we would have thought it wasn't classy, and

763
00:36:33,302 --> 00:36:35,782
Speaker 2: Anna win Tour certainly would have thought it wasn't classy.

764
00:36:36,142 --> 00:36:38,062
Speaker 2: But now she also sees which way the wind is

765
00:36:38,062 --> 00:36:40,181
Speaker 2: blowing and she's like, we will be having this wedding pan.

766
00:36:40,342 --> 00:36:43,622
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think she does still see it as not classy.

767
00:36:44,022 --> 00:36:48,422
Speaker 1: But Anna win Tour is a survivor and she is

768
00:36:48,942 --> 00:36:52,821
Speaker 1: very savvy, and she knows that this is the new

769
00:36:52,822 --> 00:36:56,902
Speaker 1: world order. You know, in Magaworld it's not about quiet luxury.

770
00:36:57,102 --> 00:36:59,901
Speaker 1: Then you know they have a wide philanthropic arm and

771
00:36:59,942 --> 00:37:02,102
Speaker 1: she calls herself a philanthropist. She also just wrote a

772
00:37:02,181 --> 00:37:04,942
Speaker 1: children's book about a fly he goes to space. So

773
00:37:05,741 --> 00:37:07,422
Speaker 1: I've been watching some interviews with her of trying to

774
00:37:07,422 --> 00:37:09,382
Speaker 1: get a bit of a sense of her. She doesn't

775
00:37:09,382 --> 00:37:12,302
Speaker 1: try how it be anything that she's not. She seems

776
00:37:12,342 --> 00:37:13,382
Speaker 1: like she'd be a good time.

777
00:37:13,741 --> 00:37:17,422
Speaker 3: My only note is I was looking at the protesters thinking,

778
00:37:17,462 --> 00:37:19,781
Speaker 3: I wonder what specifically they're protesting, And of course it

779
00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:22,902
Speaker 3: is about Venice in particular has been overrun and historic

780
00:37:23,221 --> 00:37:25,181
Speaker 3: sites have been damaged by tourists and all that kind

781
00:37:25,181 --> 00:37:25,501
Speaker 3: of stuff.

782
00:37:25,542 --> 00:37:26,582
Speaker 4: And they're basically like.

783
00:37:26,741 --> 00:37:29,182
Speaker 1: Which has been happening long before, yes, wedding.

784
00:37:29,221 --> 00:37:31,822
Speaker 3: But I thought, if you think that what Jeff Bezos

785
00:37:31,902 --> 00:37:34,142
Speaker 3: is doing to Venice is bad, wait until you learn

786
00:37:34,181 --> 00:37:35,702
Speaker 3: what he's been doing to the rest of the planet.

787
00:37:35,781 --> 00:37:39,622
Speaker 1: Because he is. And it's interesting that the publicity machine

788
00:37:39,622 --> 00:37:42,422
Speaker 1: has already started swinging into action. There've been lots of

789
00:37:42,661 --> 00:37:45,902
Speaker 1: stories being planted about here are all the local artisans

790
00:37:45,902 --> 00:37:47,941
Speaker 1: that they're working with and this person's made the cake,

791
00:37:47,982 --> 00:37:50,502
Speaker 1: and this local person's done this, and you know it's

792
00:37:50,542 --> 00:37:51,861
Speaker 1: going to be phenomenal.

793
00:37:51,942 --> 00:37:55,142
Speaker 3: This is that's ironic, given that Jeff Bezos solely destroyed

794
00:37:55,142 --> 00:37:56,542
Speaker 3: local economies exactly.

795
00:37:56,902 --> 00:38:00,542
Speaker 1: Well, it's very interesting this idea of over tourism protests,

796
00:38:00,542 --> 00:38:03,261
Speaker 1: because tourism is the backbone of the economy of a

797
00:38:03,261 --> 00:38:05,982
Speaker 1: lot of these big cities. But the locals always say, well,

798
00:38:06,022 --> 00:38:08,102
Speaker 1: we can't afford to live here anymore. So you know,

799
00:38:08,181 --> 00:38:10,221
Speaker 1: we have that in our own city, like Baron Bay,

800
00:38:10,261 --> 00:38:12,582
Speaker 1: for example, there's a lot of protests about over tourism

801
00:38:12,622 --> 00:38:15,142
Speaker 1: there and about how people are being driven out and

802
00:38:15,142 --> 00:38:18,021
Speaker 1: can't afford rents anymore. So it's going to be really

803
00:38:18,022 --> 00:38:22,142
Speaker 1: interesting to watch. Apparently she's had twenty seven dresses commissioned

804
00:38:22,462 --> 00:38:26,181
Speaker 1: that are all pretty much cautore I would She's probably

805
00:38:26,221 --> 00:38:28,502
Speaker 1: gonna wear Oscar dela Rena. That's what she wore to

806
00:38:28,502 --> 00:38:31,462
Speaker 1: the met gala. There was a bit of a holding

807
00:38:31,542 --> 00:38:34,142
Speaker 1: nose over who would design it, and also around all

808
00:38:34,181 --> 00:38:37,781
Speaker 1: the MAGA people, but you know, Milania Trump and all

809
00:38:37,822 --> 00:38:40,902
Speaker 1: the Magas. But now the designers again have seen the

810
00:38:40,902 --> 00:38:44,142
Speaker 1: way the wind blows. This is incredibly lucrative for them.

811
00:38:44,342 --> 00:38:47,142
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how much publicity it's going to get

812
00:38:47,422 --> 00:38:49,022
Speaker 1: and how much money is going to be spent. She's

813
00:38:49,022 --> 00:38:51,022
Speaker 1: also been at dot Chain and Gabana. I'm sure she's

814
00:38:51,181 --> 00:38:53,502
Speaker 1: spreading the love around. If she's got twenty seven dresses

815
00:38:53,502 --> 00:38:54,102
Speaker 1: to wear.

816
00:38:54,221 --> 00:38:56,381
Speaker 2: Out louders, that's all we've got time for on our

817
00:38:56,382 --> 00:38:57,142
Speaker 2: Monday show them.

818
00:38:57,302 --> 00:39:01,381
Speaker 1: That'sot One more thing, Jesse, I was at your house

819
00:39:01,382 --> 00:39:04,462
Speaker 1: for dinner last night. You were there. I was having

820
00:39:04,542 --> 00:39:08,422
Speaker 1: dinner with Luca and my other kids. And did you

821
00:39:08,462 --> 00:39:09,821
Speaker 1: notice anything different? This morning?

822
00:39:09,902 --> 00:39:11,901
Speaker 4: The house was a little messy, so I knew you'd

823
00:39:11,942 --> 00:39:12,341
Speaker 4: been there.

824
00:39:12,422 --> 00:39:14,622
Speaker 1: Did you notice anything different in Luna's room? No?

825
00:39:15,422 --> 00:39:16,102
Speaker 4: What did you do?

826
00:39:16,261 --> 00:39:18,942
Speaker 1: So? Last night I went upstairs to put it to

827
00:39:18,982 --> 00:39:21,341
Speaker 1: bed after her bath, and I went to get her

828
00:39:21,342 --> 00:39:24,781
Speaker 1: pajamas and I tried to open the drawer where the

829
00:39:24,942 --> 00:39:28,942
Speaker 1: clothes pajamas might be. It was jammed, was so stuffed

830
00:39:28,982 --> 00:39:33,221
Speaker 1: so couldn't open it. Now that might remember a while

831
00:39:33,261 --> 00:39:37,582
Speaker 1: ago again, when Jesse was out, I went through Luna's

832
00:39:37,582 --> 00:39:40,102
Speaker 1: clothes and that was a boundary.

833
00:39:41,622 --> 00:39:43,142
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so.

834
00:39:43,502 --> 00:39:48,221
Speaker 1: I was a woman possessed last night. I reckon two

835
00:39:48,422 --> 00:39:50,982
Speaker 1: thirds of the stuff there were two drawers. Luna did

836
00:39:50,982 --> 00:39:53,462
Speaker 1: it with me. We had a great time. Two thirds

837
00:39:53,462 --> 00:39:56,422
Speaker 1: of the stuff is now bagged and put away.

838
00:39:57,382 --> 00:39:58,022
Speaker 2: Come to my hand.

839
00:39:58,261 --> 00:40:00,142
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could actually do my clothes. How you're at it?

840
00:40:00,261 --> 00:40:01,181
Speaker 2: That sounds really.

841
00:40:01,302 --> 00:40:05,142
Speaker 1: It made me so happy. There were like newborn rashes

842
00:40:05,342 --> 00:40:07,022
Speaker 1: in there. There were a few things that went in

843
00:40:07,022 --> 00:40:09,062
Speaker 1: the bit I'm telling you want There are a few

844
00:40:09,102 --> 00:40:10,661
Speaker 1: things that I I was just like, this is just

845
00:40:10,661 --> 00:40:12,982
Speaker 1: looks like sadness to me. It has to go.

846
00:40:13,502 --> 00:40:16,502
Speaker 2: Out loud as. Please direct your anger.

847
00:40:18,502 --> 00:40:20,941
Speaker 1: Connection to that rash. I did mind, I did think

848
00:40:20,942 --> 00:40:22,342
Speaker 1: about that. I didn't check the rash she out. I

849
00:40:22,382 --> 00:40:24,901
Speaker 1: only chucked out things that were disgusting. But the things

850
00:40:24,942 --> 00:40:27,661
Speaker 1: that don't fit her anymore, I've all put away in

851
00:40:27,781 --> 00:40:30,341
Speaker 1: two huge bags in a cupboard, on top of all

852
00:40:30,382 --> 00:40:31,821
Speaker 1: the stuff I put away last time.

853
00:40:32,142 --> 00:40:34,421
Speaker 3: So I can't remember if I said this last time,

854
00:40:34,862 --> 00:40:38,741
Speaker 3: I'll speak to you. I saved her newborn singlet from

855
00:40:38,781 --> 00:40:41,102
Speaker 3: the hospital, and I will say I have not been

856
00:40:41,102 --> 00:40:43,222
Speaker 3: able to find that stuff.

857
00:40:43,261 --> 00:40:45,502
Speaker 4: And if that's singles got bin.

858
00:40:45,822 --> 00:40:48,582
Speaker 2: No, she's not sentimental, you see, but.

859
00:40:48,741 --> 00:40:50,902
Speaker 4: I know some of us are very sentimental.

860
00:40:50,942 --> 00:40:52,461
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I would have saved that because I would

861
00:40:52,462 --> 00:40:53,941
Speaker 1: have got. Oh my god, it's so small and cute.

862
00:40:53,982 --> 00:40:55,862
Speaker 1: It just you probably just haven't looked in that cupboard.

863
00:40:56,142 --> 00:40:58,461
Speaker 4: I haven't. I actually don't know what cupboard you're talking about.

864
00:40:58,462 --> 00:41:00,781
Speaker 1: I was actually more ruthless this time. Last time, I

865
00:41:00,862 --> 00:41:03,421
Speaker 1: was really nervous about overstepping boundaries, and then I told

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00:41:03,422 --> 00:41:05,422
Speaker 1: you like a week later, and you haven't noticed. So

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00:41:05,462 --> 00:41:06,622
Speaker 1: this time I had more confidence.

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00:41:06,741 --> 00:41:10,022
Speaker 2: She also hadn't noticed. Have you noticed that she'd It's

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00:41:10,022 --> 00:41:10,421
Speaker 2: going to be.

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00:41:10,382 --> 00:41:11,582
Speaker 1: So much easier to get addressed.

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00:41:11,622 --> 00:41:16,102
Speaker 2: Now you're welcome, Okay, please come over back to where

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00:41:16,102 --> 00:41:18,781
Speaker 2: we were out louders. A big thank you to all

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00:41:18,822 --> 00:41:22,181
Speaker 2: of you for being with us on this Monday, and

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00:41:22,221 --> 00:41:24,462
Speaker 2: of course to our fabulous team for putting the show together.

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00:41:24,741 --> 00:41:27,502
Speaker 1: Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton Fenton. In

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00:41:27,502 --> 00:41:30,022
Speaker 1: case you hadn't heard, visit Fenton and Fenton dot com

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00:41:30,062 --> 00:41:31,902
Speaker 1: dot au. Great stuff there.

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00:41:31,822 --> 00:41:33,661
Speaker 4: And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

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00:41:33,701 --> 00:41:34,622
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

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00:41:35,982 --> 00:41:38,941
Speaker 3: Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If

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00:41:38,942 --> 00:41:40,901
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

882
00:41:41,142 --> 00:41:44,062
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to

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00:41:44,142 --> 00:41:46,542
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description,