WEBVTT - When You Want To Be ‘Unmarried’ But Not Divorced 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:18.647 that this podcast is recorded. 0:00:18.247 --> 0:00:19.207 On out louders. 0:00:19.207 --> 0:00:22.047 If you're missing us and your weekly out loud routine, 0:00:22.247 --> 0:00:24.167 and of course you are, because why wouldn't you be, 0:00:24.447 --> 0:00:26.807 we wanted to let you know that over the summer 0:00:26.847 --> 0:00:30.687 we are still dropping episodes for Mamma Mia subscribers all 0:00:30.767 --> 0:00:33.407 holidays long. As a subscriber, you're going to get full 0:00:33.407 --> 0:00:36.167 access to out loud, including the back catalog of over 0:00:36.247 --> 0:00:40.367 two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes, so that will 0:00:40.447 --> 0:00:42.887 keep you busy for a really long time when you 0:00:42.887 --> 0:00:45.567 want to avoid your family at all costs. Subscribe to 0:00:45.567 --> 0:00:47.767 Mama Maya via the link in the episode description. 0:00:48.127 --> 0:00:51.047 Hey, out louders, it's meya. As part of Hot Pod Summer, 0:00:51.207 --> 0:00:53.687 we're putting all sorts of little treats into your ears. 0:00:53.807 --> 0:00:57.407 And this one is a cracker. It's an interview I 0:00:57.407 --> 0:01:00.047 did for No Filter, which is another podcast that I host. 0:01:00.087 --> 0:01:03.687 Hope you listened to that too. David Finch one day 0:01:04.087 --> 0:01:06.127 a few years ago, he was getting out of the 0:01:06.127 --> 0:01:11.407 shower and his wife came in and said, I don't 0:01:11.407 --> 0:01:14.647 want to be married anymore. And he was like, oh, 0:01:14.847 --> 0:01:17.127 do you want to get divorced? And she's like, no, 0:01:17.167 --> 0:01:18.727 I don't want to get divorced, but I want to 0:01:18.727 --> 0:01:22.847 be unmarried. And he was very confused because he'd made 0:01:22.927 --> 0:01:26.607 a whole career out of being the world's most perfect husband, 0:01:26.647 --> 0:01:29.407 had even written books about it, he gave talks about it. 0:01:30.167 --> 0:01:33.767 But now several years later, he and his wife are 0:01:33.807 --> 0:01:38.887 happily unmarried. We unpacked what this meant on No Filter 0:01:39.167 --> 0:01:42.527 earlier this year, which is why I wanted to share 0:01:42.527 --> 0:01:44.607 it with you now, particularly at this time of year. 0:01:44.647 --> 0:01:48.367 You know, January is the time when couple therapists are 0:01:48.407 --> 0:01:53.647 absolutely overrun. I wonder why enjoy this episode? It's really interesting. 0:01:54.487 --> 0:01:57.047 Kristen waks in and she goes, hey, you know that 0:01:57.167 --> 0:02:00.287 thing where we were just trying to fix our marriage. 0:02:00.327 --> 0:02:02.207 I was like, yeah, yeah, basically the last eight years. 0:02:02.247 --> 0:02:04.087 Of course, what's up. She's like, well, I don't want 0:02:04.127 --> 0:02:06.447 to do that anymore. I'm out. I can't do this 0:02:06.567 --> 0:02:09.767 marriage thing with you anymore. And I was like holding 0:02:09.767 --> 0:02:12.487 my underwear. I was like, a minute, what do you 0:02:12.527 --> 0:02:13.447 mean You're You're. 0:02:13.367 --> 0:02:16.167 Out from mom and Mia? This is no Filter and 0:02:16.207 --> 0:02:21.007 I'm mea Friedman. Before David and Kristin Finch were married 0:02:21.247 --> 0:02:23.767 and they were just dating, she found some photos on 0:02:23.807 --> 0:02:27.087 his camera that were really well, they were really weird, 0:02:27.687 --> 0:02:30.967 not sex weird and not cheating weird. This wasn't one 0:02:31.007 --> 0:02:35.527 of those situations where you accidentally find incriminating evidence of infidelity. 0:02:35.927 --> 0:02:39.087 It was not that these weren't dick pics, but they 0:02:39.167 --> 0:02:43.167 were photos of David taken by David, and I guess 0:02:43.167 --> 0:02:45.407 you could call them selfies, but they were not the 0:02:45.487 --> 0:02:48.367 kind of selfies that you imagine when you hear that word. 0:02:49.287 --> 0:02:52.887 The photos that Kristin found of her boyfriend were in 0:02:52.967 --> 0:02:58.487 different situations, like normal situations, watching TV, or driving his car, 0:02:59.047 --> 0:03:03.007 even sitting on the toilet, very everyday things, and he'd 0:03:03.047 --> 0:03:06.887 taken photos of himself while he was doing them, so 0:03:07.007 --> 0:03:09.807 yet not the usual kind of photos that are or 0:03:09.847 --> 0:03:14.367 anyone really would take, because why would you. So of 0:03:14.447 --> 0:03:17.567 course Kristin asked him about it, and David told her 0:03:17.927 --> 0:03:21.167 that he wanted to understand how he looked to other 0:03:21.207 --> 0:03:25.087 people when he was doing normal stuff, and they laughed 0:03:25.087 --> 0:03:27.847 about it together, and even though David couldn't explain why 0:03:27.927 --> 0:03:31.007 he did it, Kristin just kind of dismissed it as 0:03:31.287 --> 0:03:34.007 a little quirk. I mean, she knew that David had 0:03:34.007 --> 0:03:36.927 a bunch of quirks things that he did that seemed, 0:03:37.407 --> 0:03:40.607 you know, a little odd. A few years later, though, 0:03:40.887 --> 0:03:44.687 after they were married and had kids and David hit 0:03:44.727 --> 0:03:47.927 a really rough patch in their relationship and it sparked 0:03:47.927 --> 0:03:52.647 a discovery about David that would change everything. This discovery 0:03:52.727 --> 0:03:55.567 even led to him writing a book about How to 0:03:55.607 --> 0:03:59.207 Be a Perfect Husband, which became a New York Times bestseller. 0:04:00.127 --> 0:04:03.487 And this part's quite funny. His determination to be a 0:04:03.487 --> 0:04:07.127 perfect husband is what ultimately made his wife call time 0:04:07.167 --> 0:04:10.767 on their marriage. This is a story with a lot 0:04:10.807 --> 0:04:13.687 of surprises in it, mostly for David and also for 0:04:13.807 --> 0:04:16.367 you when you hear it. So the best place to 0:04:16.367 --> 0:04:18.967 start is at the beginning, when David was just a 0:04:19.047 --> 0:04:21.847 kid trying to figure out how to be in the world. 0:04:22.807 --> 0:04:26.087 So let's dive in with the very delightful David Finch. 0:04:27.727 --> 0:04:29.487 Tell me where you grew up, David. 0:04:30.127 --> 0:04:33.327 I grew up on a farm in northern Illinois. It's 0:04:33.367 --> 0:04:36.487 about sixty miles northwest of Chicago, pretty close to the 0:04:36.527 --> 0:04:40.047 Wisconsin border. And it was fantastic. 0:04:40.287 --> 0:04:41.487 What kind of kid were you? 0:04:41.727 --> 0:04:43.767 First of all, I know that I was a very, 0:04:43.887 --> 0:04:48.287 very happy, to a large extent, chill kid, and I 0:04:48.287 --> 0:04:51.887 would say quirky too. There were moments where, like my 0:04:51.967 --> 0:04:54.607 parents were having a dinner party just with a bunch 0:04:54.607 --> 0:04:57.207 of friends, and I would scoot along on the floor 0:04:57.247 --> 0:04:59.327 of our house on my hands in my knees with 0:04:59.407 --> 0:05:03.287 my forehead against the carpet, and I loved the brushing 0:05:03.327 --> 0:05:05.967 sensation of the carpet against my forehead. It was like 0:05:06.087 --> 0:05:10.367 very calming. It kind of transported me into this utopian 0:05:10.647 --> 0:05:13.287 like state of mind, even when I was real young, 0:05:13.327 --> 0:05:15.327 you know, and I was like, this feels great. So 0:05:15.367 --> 0:05:17.447 I did it all the time. My parents were awesome. 0:05:17.487 --> 0:05:20.167 They were just like, oh, that's just Dave. Don't mind him. 0:05:20.447 --> 0:05:21.007 He's fine. 0:05:21.487 --> 0:05:24.727 He's just vacuuming the floor with his face, not a problem. 0:05:25.207 --> 0:05:27.727 Did you have friends, David, Like, did you socialize easily? 0:05:27.847 --> 0:05:29.527 Or did other kids think that you're a bit weird? 0:05:29.727 --> 0:05:32.527 These are great questions. I love these. Okay, So after 0:05:33.007 --> 0:05:35.327 we'll say third grade or fourth grade or so, I 0:05:35.367 --> 0:05:40.687 always had a very small and unchanging friend group, and 0:05:41.207 --> 0:05:45.967 those same people are still my closest friends today. But 0:05:46.047 --> 0:05:48.687 for the most part, I was not likely to be 0:05:48.847 --> 0:05:52.767 the kid who was invited to We'll say just a party, like, oh, 0:05:52.767 --> 0:05:54.967 we're doing a big party Friday night, everybody come over. 0:05:55.687 --> 0:05:58.487 My number was not on that list, so I would 0:05:58.527 --> 0:06:01.367 find out that everybody got together, did fun things whatever. 0:06:01.767 --> 0:06:04.287 Looking back, that was it was really okay with me. 0:06:04.407 --> 0:06:06.767 I always felt this notion of like, what am I 0:06:06.807 --> 0:06:09.407 missing out on? Why am I not being an I 0:06:09.367 --> 0:06:12.247 had to participate in these sorts of things. On the 0:06:12.287 --> 0:06:14.407 other hand, if you had asked me put yourself in 0:06:14.447 --> 0:06:17.527 that environment, in that party, in that situation, hanging out 0:06:17.567 --> 0:06:19.567 with you know, people on a Friday night, would you 0:06:19.607 --> 0:06:21.207 want to be doing that? The answer would be no, 0:06:21.247 --> 0:06:24.687 I'd rather be at home, you know, practicing my sax phone, 0:06:24.727 --> 0:06:27.487 drawing pictures or whatever. I always had a core group 0:06:27.527 --> 0:06:30.007 of friends. I was lucky in that way because I 0:06:30.007 --> 0:06:33.807 think I was regarded as sort of the funny kid, 0:06:34.167 --> 0:06:37.647 the comedian of the group or the school. I don't 0:06:37.647 --> 0:06:39.167 know looking back, if I was funny or if I 0:06:39.167 --> 0:06:41.247 was just willing to be more obnoxious than the other 0:06:41.327 --> 0:06:43.087 kids were willing to be, and so they thought that 0:06:43.167 --> 0:06:43.607 was funny. 0:06:43.607 --> 0:06:45.407 But were you in on the joke or were you 0:06:45.407 --> 0:06:47.607 sort of bewildered about You'd say something that you didn't 0:06:47.607 --> 0:06:49.847 think was funny and everyone would go, oh, Dave, you're 0:06:50.007 --> 0:06:53.047 it's so funny when you were like, I wasn't trying 0:06:53.087 --> 0:06:55.687 to be funny, or you would you actually push on 0:06:55.727 --> 0:06:56.807 that button deliberately. 0:06:57.087 --> 0:06:59.367 I'm laughing because that actually happens more now that I'm 0:06:59.407 --> 0:07:01.487 an adult, I'm not in on the joke. When I 0:07:01.527 --> 0:07:04.287 was a kid, I had a little more credibility. No, 0:07:04.367 --> 0:07:06.127 when I was a kid, it was half and half. 0:07:06.367 --> 0:07:10.407 Half the time I would architect of a funny situation 0:07:10.567 --> 0:07:13.127 or a funny line on things, I would present it 0:07:13.247 --> 0:07:15.087 or I would share it with people. They would agree 0:07:15.127 --> 0:07:18.047 it was funny. And whether that was you know, just 0:07:18.167 --> 0:07:21.807 in a conversation like real time, or if the assignment 0:07:21.847 --> 0:07:25.727 for the classroom was we're making posters about you know, 0:07:25.847 --> 0:07:29.447 recycling or something, then I would draw the most ridiculous 0:07:29.847 --> 0:07:31.927 poster and I know people would laugh at that. Right then. 0:07:31.967 --> 0:07:34.487 There are other times when I clearly was not trying 0:07:34.487 --> 0:07:36.247 to make anybody laugh, and I was just sharing my 0:07:36.367 --> 0:07:39.687 actual lived experience and people thought it was hilarious, And 0:07:39.767 --> 0:07:44.047 so sometimes I felt othered. We'll say, to use that. 0:07:45.327 --> 0:07:47.847 Fake verb, we didn't have that word back then, but 0:07:48.007 --> 0:07:51.127 now you can see that's how you felt. Tell me 0:07:51.447 --> 0:07:55.327 about dating, because that can be difficult for anyone to navigate. 0:07:55.607 --> 0:07:57.807 But when you have a different view on the world, 0:07:57.967 --> 0:07:58.807 how was it for you? 0:07:59.167 --> 0:08:02.967 Dating was always a really interesting proposition for me because 0:08:03.287 --> 0:08:05.727 it's said often you know of people who are on 0:08:05.807 --> 0:08:08.607 the spectrum that do they really engage with people on 0:08:08.647 --> 0:08:11.327 an emotional level? Do they really understand, you know, the 0:08:11.367 --> 0:08:14.047 sort of the social dynamics, and you know, for the 0:08:14.047 --> 0:08:16.527 most part, there are challenges with that and maybe certain 0:08:16.607 --> 0:08:19.127 limitations if you want to call them limitations, or differences 0:08:19.167 --> 0:08:21.647 if you want to call them differences. But for me, 0:08:22.407 --> 0:08:25.527 dating was an interesting proposition because there was always somebody 0:08:25.527 --> 0:08:28.127 that I was like, Oh, well, she's cute, she's funny, 0:08:28.167 --> 0:08:30.647 I like her personality, you know, And so there's always 0:08:30.647 --> 0:08:32.887 somebody I was interested in for one reason or another. 0:08:32.967 --> 0:08:35.807 But when it came time, like basically in high school, 0:08:36.247 --> 0:08:39.167 is really when I first started to maybe have girlfriends. 0:08:39.647 --> 0:08:42.327 So I do really well when I have a model 0:08:42.607 --> 0:08:45.327 in my head for how something is supposed to be done, 0:08:45.927 --> 0:08:47.887 and I can kind of work that model. But until 0:08:47.927 --> 0:08:50.527 I have that model, I don't always do well with 0:08:51.207 --> 0:08:55.727 improvisation in such a way that the improvisation is tolerable 0:08:55.727 --> 0:08:58.607 to others. I can improvise my way through anything, but 0:08:58.727 --> 0:09:01.167 the key socially is to do it in an agreeable, 0:09:01.727 --> 0:09:05.927 socially nice manner. Right. So, like, what I knew about dating, 0:09:06.127 --> 0:09:08.807 especially when I was younger, is anything that I would 0:09:08.807 --> 0:09:11.167 have seen in TV shows, cartoons, and movies. 0:09:11.247 --> 0:09:13.647 So that's what you were emulating. That was the model 0:09:13.687 --> 0:09:14.327 you were working. 0:09:14.527 --> 0:09:17.007 I was emulating that, which is dangerous when you're emulating 0:09:17.047 --> 0:09:20.647 Peppi Lapew and you're like all this this amorous, like, ooh, 0:09:21.047 --> 0:09:22.087 you know you're so beautiful? 0:09:22.447 --> 0:09:24.567 Illegal now yeah. 0:09:24.047 --> 0:09:25.607 Nowadays, Yeah, I'd be thrown in jail. 0:09:25.887 --> 0:09:29.007 Yeah. Tell me about the improvising. Give me an example 0:09:29.047 --> 0:09:32.007 of a situation where you improvised, but because you didn't 0:09:32.047 --> 0:09:33.367 have a model, it didn't land. 0:09:33.807 --> 0:09:36.487 God, that's such a good question, because I always referred 0:09:36.527 --> 0:09:39.527 back to models all this levity and joking for the 0:09:39.567 --> 0:09:42.527 last couple of minutes. The moment of biggest import for 0:09:42.607 --> 0:09:45.367 me personally in terms of not having a model and 0:09:45.407 --> 0:09:49.367 feeling completely fish out of water about it, was when 0:09:49.447 --> 0:09:53.047 my best friend Kristen, who is now my wife, lost 0:09:53.247 --> 0:09:57.047 somebody very, very important to her. She lost her fiance, 0:09:57.207 --> 0:09:58.607 and I don't want to get ahead of the story, 0:09:58.687 --> 0:10:01.847 but she lost her fiance, Mike, in a car accident 0:10:01.927 --> 0:10:05.687 when we were in our early twenties, and Mike was 0:10:05.687 --> 0:10:08.487 somebody that I had grown up with in school as well, 0:10:08.567 --> 0:10:13.847 and along with Kristin. I remember I was always Kristin's funny, 0:10:13.887 --> 0:10:17.607 dorky friend as we were just discussing. But when Mike died, 0:10:17.927 --> 0:10:19.527 I did not know how to show up for a 0:10:19.567 --> 0:10:21.367 friend who was grieving. I knew how to show up 0:10:21.407 --> 0:10:24.727 for a friend who was happy or annoyed, a little 0:10:24.767 --> 0:10:28.287 bit sad, you know, all these different emotional states, but 0:10:28.567 --> 0:10:32.447 truly grieving and not feeling like yourself anymore, and not 0:10:32.447 --> 0:10:35.967 being able to process the enormity of what just happened 0:10:36.007 --> 0:10:39.047 in your life, the tragedy of it. I felt like 0:10:39.087 --> 0:10:41.447 a terrible friend because there was a period for about 0:10:41.447 --> 0:10:43.207 a year and a half where I just I had 0:10:43.207 --> 0:10:46.007 no idea how to show up for Kristin. And normally 0:10:46.647 --> 0:10:49.207 I was somebody who always knew how to show up 0:10:49.207 --> 0:10:50.767 for her, how to get a laugh out of her. 0:10:51.087 --> 0:10:54.047 You know that's interesting that you say that, David, because 0:10:54.807 --> 0:10:56.967 I don't think anyone would have known how to show 0:10:57.047 --> 0:10:59.807 up for Kristin in that situation. I wouldn't, at age 0:10:59.847 --> 0:11:03.167 fifty two as I am now, with all the social 0:11:03.167 --> 0:11:06.447 awareness and insight that I have, and I'm not neurodiverse 0:11:06.487 --> 0:11:08.407 in the same way that you are, I wouldn't know 0:11:08.687 --> 0:11:10.687 what to do in that moment. Like I've got a 0:11:10.687 --> 0:11:13.047 friend whose father just died and she's devastated. I don't 0:11:13.087 --> 0:11:14.967 know how to show up for her in the right way. 0:11:15.127 --> 0:11:18.367 So just must have been an incredibly tough thing, you know, 0:11:18.407 --> 0:11:21.167 in neurodiversity aside, how did you navigate it with her? 0:11:21.407 --> 0:11:23.807 What ended up happening was after a year and a 0:11:23.847 --> 0:11:27.207 half of Kristin and me not really connecting, not really 0:11:27.647 --> 0:11:29.767 seeing each other at all, but not even calling each 0:11:29.767 --> 0:11:33.687 other on the phone. This was before texting. Prior to that, 0:11:33.727 --> 0:11:36.927 we would see each other pretty regularly and do fun things, 0:11:36.927 --> 0:11:40.367 hang out, do social things, talk, write letters to each other, 0:11:40.487 --> 0:11:43.687 mail and back and forth. But after Mike died, she 0:11:44.327 --> 0:11:47.327 really shut down, like her whole self just kind of 0:11:47.807 --> 0:11:50.407 went away for a little while. I had reached out 0:11:50.407 --> 0:11:54.007 a few times, just leaving messages on the answering machine 0:11:54.087 --> 0:11:56.007 and just saying hey, I'm here. You know, just if 0:11:56.047 --> 0:11:57.807 you ever want to get together, let me know. No 0:11:57.927 --> 0:12:00.487 phone calls back. And that didn't bother me because it 0:12:00.527 --> 0:12:03.767 wasn't expecting one. So after about a year and a half, 0:12:04.167 --> 0:12:06.887 she and I ended up living in the same town, 0:12:07.447 --> 0:12:10.807 across the street from each other. She called me one 0:12:11.247 --> 0:12:13.727 late afternoon, it was actually around dinner time, and she said, 0:12:14.487 --> 0:12:16.447 I would love to go get a cup of coffee. 0:12:16.447 --> 0:12:20.127 Are you around. I was like, oh my god, yeah, 0:12:20.207 --> 0:12:22.047 I would love to get a cup of coffee with you. 0:12:22.087 --> 0:12:24.487 Now that was a lie. People say like, oh, you 0:12:24.527 --> 0:12:26.487 got aspergers. You can't tell lies. No, I can lie, 0:12:26.527 --> 0:12:29.567 And that was a big That was a big, big, 0:12:29.607 --> 0:12:32.447 white phony lie. Because at the time I hated coffee. 0:12:32.847 --> 0:12:35.207 I wouldn't have touched it otherwise. But it was Kristen. 0:12:35.287 --> 0:12:37.487 It was like this really close best friend of mine 0:12:37.567 --> 0:12:39.807 resurfacing after a year and a half. So I was like, oh, yeah, 0:12:39.847 --> 0:12:42.407 I love coffee. I can't get enough of it. So 0:12:42.967 --> 0:12:44.727 I put on my coat and I stood there at 0:12:44.727 --> 0:12:48.007 the door and she came over to pick me up. 0:12:48.687 --> 0:12:52.287 We went got coffee that night, and it was a 0:12:52.367 --> 0:12:56.407 really interesting evening because I'm much better at banter and 0:12:56.487 --> 0:12:59.767 small talk and just sort of social pleasantry conversation. Now, 0:12:59.967 --> 0:13:01.407 you know, if you're sitting next to somebody on a 0:13:01.407 --> 0:13:03.247 four hour flight and they start yapping at you, and 0:13:03.287 --> 0:13:06.087 I can carry that conversation. Finally, at age forty seven, 0:13:06.687 --> 0:13:08.727 but I had at that time in my life just 0:13:08.847 --> 0:13:13.127 know about for gab and small talk. So with Kristen, 0:13:13.527 --> 0:13:15.767 we sat down with our coffees. By the way, I 0:13:15.767 --> 0:13:17.967 had no idea what even to order. It was a 0:13:18.007 --> 0:13:21.847 Starbucks coffee place, and so she ordered this white chocolate 0:13:21.927 --> 0:13:25.087 mocha and I listened very closely to how she ordered, 0:13:25.087 --> 0:13:26.927 and I was like, that sounds good. I would also 0:13:27.007 --> 0:13:32.687 like a white chocolate mocha, and just following her lead, 0:13:33.007 --> 0:13:35.407 so we both sat down with our white chocolate mochas. 0:13:35.687 --> 0:13:36.487 Sounds delicious. 0:13:36.847 --> 0:13:38.527 It was delicious. I got to say it made me 0:13:38.527 --> 0:13:41.047 a coffee drinker, or maybe it was her company that 0:13:41.087 --> 0:13:44.007 made me a coffee drinker. But I just launched right 0:13:44.087 --> 0:13:47.847 into I haven't seen you in forever, how are you doing? 0:13:47.887 --> 0:13:50.527 And she'd be like, you know, the first couple questions 0:13:50.567 --> 0:13:52.207 I asked, she was just like, ah, you know, I mean, 0:13:52.567 --> 0:13:55.527 not awesome, but doing okay, putting on the brave face 0:13:55.567 --> 0:13:58.167 sort of thing, and I could see the brave face act, 0:13:58.407 --> 0:14:00.527 and so I just kind of cut to the chase 0:14:00.567 --> 0:14:02.407 and said, I don't know if there's an answer for this, 0:14:02.527 --> 0:14:05.287 but like, what would you say you regret the most 0:14:05.327 --> 0:14:07.367 having lost Mike but not being able to say goodbye 0:14:07.367 --> 0:14:09.007 to him because it was so abrupt, Like, what is 0:14:09.007 --> 0:14:10.607 the biggest thing that you've been dealing with for the 0:14:10.687 --> 0:14:13.487 last year and a half. Yeah, nobody had asked her 0:14:13.567 --> 0:14:18.847 questions like this, and it might sound insensitive, terrible, borderline 0:14:19.487 --> 0:14:22.607 cruel or barbaric to ask those sorts of questions, but 0:14:22.727 --> 0:14:25.087 I just started asking her one after another of these 0:14:25.807 --> 0:14:30.207 these heavy hitting, like sixty minutes, you know, investigative journalism 0:14:30.247 --> 0:14:31.087 type questions. 0:14:31.407 --> 0:14:32.607 How did it turn into love? 0:14:33.167 --> 0:14:36.207 Well, I'm an endlessly lovable person. 0:14:36.767 --> 0:14:40.927 Clearly, I'm already in love with you, Diamond Book, Can 0:14:40.967 --> 0:14:43.287 I say, and it's only been twenty minutes. 0:14:44.407 --> 0:14:48.407 If only we weren't literally twenty four hours separated exactly. 0:14:48.607 --> 0:14:51.687 That's an interesting question too, because, by the way, I 0:14:51.727 --> 0:14:53.367 love how your listeners are going to be listening to 0:14:53.407 --> 0:14:55.007 this episode and they're going to be like, can you 0:14:55.087 --> 0:14:59.247 just answer one of her fucking questions without this whole 0:14:59.287 --> 0:15:03.047 thirty minute preamble. There was always a love with Kristin 0:15:03.127 --> 0:15:06.007 and me. We knew each other way back when we 0:15:06.007 --> 0:15:11.247 were in preschool. He has known me. Out of all 0:15:11.367 --> 0:15:13.847 the people that I've consciously known in my life, she's 0:15:14.087 --> 0:15:15.767 one of the people who has known me the longest. 0:15:16.047 --> 0:15:20.087 And now she's very aware of people and what's going 0:15:20.127 --> 0:15:23.007 on around her, so she would have noticed me and 0:15:23.047 --> 0:15:26.407 maybe compartmentalized me as like, Okay, that's the funny weird kid. 0:15:26.447 --> 0:15:29.487 Got it cool. Then when we were in high school, 0:15:29.567 --> 0:15:33.087 it really turned We became really i would say, good friends. 0:15:33.087 --> 0:15:36.127 In high school. We had the same line on things. 0:15:36.167 --> 0:15:38.207 We had a very similar sense of humor. 0:15:38.847 --> 0:15:41.407 After the short break, how David got himself out of 0:15:41.407 --> 0:15:45.447 the friend zone with Kristin and embarked on marriage and 0:15:45.487 --> 0:15:48.767 fatherhood and also what he discovered about himself in the 0:15:48.767 --> 0:15:58.007 process that he never expected. Did you ever have a 0:15:58.007 --> 0:16:00.567 crush on her? Or it was platonic for you? 0:16:01.007 --> 0:16:06.447 It was platonic by circumstance. Then when Mike died, it 0:16:06.527 --> 0:16:08.847 was when Kristin and Mike were both in grad school, 0:16:09.447 --> 0:16:13.407 just graduated from undergrad and had started working already. After 0:16:13.487 --> 0:16:14.967 Mike died, it was a year and a half then 0:16:15.047 --> 0:16:17.567 Christen and I started hanging out, we started getting coffee, 0:16:18.207 --> 0:16:20.967 and she was still my very beautiful friend. But it 0:16:21.007 --> 0:16:25.527 wasn't like that high school mania of desire. 0:16:25.167 --> 0:16:26.527 And lost in homes. 0:16:26.567 --> 0:16:31.407 Yeah, mormonesia, that doesn't help. It had very well calmed 0:16:31.407 --> 0:16:33.487 down to just like, wow, look at how beautiful my 0:16:33.527 --> 0:16:36.207 friend is, and I love being here with her talking. 0:16:37.127 --> 0:16:40.847 But apparently that first night was so deeply therapeutic for 0:16:40.887 --> 0:16:44.567 her with all my terrible Barbara Walter's questions that then 0:16:44.967 --> 0:16:47.447 it was, hey, let's do this again next week. So 0:16:47.527 --> 0:16:50.527 it was coffee every every week, right, every Tuesday. Then 0:16:50.567 --> 0:16:53.847 it was coffee every few days. Then it was coffee 0:16:53.847 --> 0:16:56.487 and dinner every few days. Then it was dinner every day, 0:16:56.567 --> 0:16:58.367 and then all of a sudden we just knew, like, 0:16:58.607 --> 0:17:01.607 you know, that was months and months of just sort 0:17:01.607 --> 0:17:06.007 of surprising discovery that I had already you know, tapped 0:17:06.007 --> 0:17:08.047 out and was like, you know, we're not a thing, 0:17:08.127 --> 0:17:10.567 or we wouldn't be, So I wasn't even thinking in 0:17:10.567 --> 0:17:12.727 those terms. And then when we were spending so much 0:17:12.727 --> 0:17:15.767 time together, we both were just like, this feels really right. 0:17:16.007 --> 0:17:17.207 How old were you guys then. 0:17:17.367 --> 0:17:19.967 Early twenties twenty three, twenty four. 0:17:19.807 --> 0:17:22.767 And you talk about being on your best behavior in 0:17:22.807 --> 0:17:27.367 that early phase when you were dating, what were you masking? Like? 0:17:27.887 --> 0:17:30.607 What kinds of things were you not showing her when 0:17:30.687 --> 0:17:31.847 you're in your best behavior? 0:17:32.207 --> 0:17:34.767 The masking thing is really interesting. If you would say, 0:17:34.847 --> 0:17:37.967 like to a twenty three year old man, single guy, 0:17:38.727 --> 0:17:40.327 what does it mean to be on your best behavior 0:17:40.367 --> 0:17:42.487 on a date? They might say things like, keep your 0:17:42.487 --> 0:17:45.287 hands to yourself, don't be leering at your date, don't 0:17:45.287 --> 0:17:47.767 make suggestive, rude, disgusting. 0:17:47.247 --> 0:17:48.767 Comments, don't drink too much. 0:17:48.887 --> 0:17:51.287 Yeah, don't drink too much, right, don't get into bar fights. 0:17:51.327 --> 0:17:53.087 Maybe unless she's into that sort of thing, and you 0:17:53.167 --> 0:17:56.927 might win some favor with Kristen. Being on my best 0:17:56.927 --> 0:18:01.247 behavior was anything that she wanted to do socially, I 0:18:01.287 --> 0:18:04.887 would just say yes to blindly. Inside, I might not 0:18:04.967 --> 0:18:07.847 want to go to the Big Taste of Chicago Festival, 0:18:08.247 --> 0:18:11.447 which just this huge, hot Fourth of July festival. It's sticky, 0:18:11.527 --> 0:18:15.567 there's food vendors. It's a nightmare. Frankly, there's shirtless guys 0:18:15.567 --> 0:18:19.367 with upside down visors spilling beer on you. And it's like, ah, 0:18:19.447 --> 0:18:22.647 it's like my worst nightmare. But Kristen, being a very 0:18:22.727 --> 0:18:26.807 social person, she loved the taste of Chicago Festival. So 0:18:26.847 --> 0:18:28.847 the very first year that we were dating, she was like, 0:18:28.927 --> 0:18:31.567 want to go to the fourth with me? I was like, yes, there, 0:18:31.767 --> 0:18:34.767 truly is nothing now would rather do more than stand there? 0:18:35.047 --> 0:18:37.007 Well, that'd be coffee. That the only thing that would 0:18:37.007 --> 0:18:38.727 make me happy is if I could have coffee at 0:18:38.767 --> 0:18:39.887 this festival. 0:18:40.487 --> 0:18:44.087 Totally yeah, with two cups of coffee in each hand. 0:18:43.887 --> 0:18:46.607 Like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm my happy place. 0:18:46.687 --> 0:18:50.047 Let's go, Let's go talk to some college age men. 0:18:50.327 --> 0:18:51.047 This will be fun. 0:18:51.127 --> 0:18:51.487 Yeah. 0:18:51.527 --> 0:18:55.287 So I'd never advocated for those sorts of things that 0:18:56.087 --> 0:19:00.927 truly I would have preferred. I was just all in 0:19:01.087 --> 0:19:03.327 on Listen, you're dating your best friend. 0:19:03.327 --> 0:19:03.527 Now. 0:19:03.607 --> 0:19:06.447 If you screw this up, you've lost a girlfriend and 0:19:06.527 --> 0:19:11.167 your best friend, so stakes don't screw it up. It's 0:19:11.167 --> 0:19:13.807 sort of like every day that we were dating, it 0:19:13.887 --> 0:19:16.847 was like I was showing up to reinterview for that 0:19:16.927 --> 0:19:20.087 same job every morning. So you know, when you go 0:19:20.087 --> 0:19:22.287 into an interview with someone, you're like, hi, very great, 0:19:22.367 --> 0:19:26.047 oh man, traffic was a breeze, you know, positive energy 0:19:26.207 --> 0:19:26.767 got here early. 0:19:26.807 --> 0:19:30.887 I'm always ely. You wrote that when you slipped from 0:19:30.927 --> 0:19:34.447 your best behavior, you wrote, she seemed to find my 0:19:34.527 --> 0:19:38.127 eccentricity and endearing. I remember her laughter upon discovering dozens 0:19:38.167 --> 0:19:40.647 of pictures I had taken of myself to see what 0:19:40.687 --> 0:19:43.247 I might look like to other people at any given moment, 0:19:43.607 --> 0:19:47.127 me watching TV, me about to sneeze, me on the toilet, 0:19:47.167 --> 0:19:50.247 looking pensive. Why did you take these photos? Day? 0:19:52.927 --> 0:19:56.127 Right around my twenties, it really started to occur to 0:19:56.167 --> 0:19:58.167 me because I was working in an office then, and 0:19:58.207 --> 0:20:00.447 it was starting to occur to me. I knew what 0:20:00.527 --> 0:20:03.607 everybody else looked like, and I was studying their mannerisms, 0:20:04.087 --> 0:20:06.807 but I don't know how I'm coming off to other people. 0:20:07.007 --> 0:20:09.167 Part of what was fueling this, or driving this was 0:20:09.687 --> 0:20:12.367 I would have people come and stop by my cubicle 0:20:12.407 --> 0:20:14.887