1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:18,647 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded. 4 00:00:18,247 --> 00:00:19,207 Speaker 1: On out louders. 5 00:00:19,207 --> 00:00:22,047 Speaker 2: If you're missing us and your weekly out loud routine, 6 00:00:22,247 --> 00:00:24,167 Speaker 2: and of course you are, because why wouldn't you be, 7 00:00:24,447 --> 00:00:26,807 Speaker 2: we wanted to let you know that over the summer 8 00:00:26,847 --> 00:00:30,687 Speaker 2: we are still dropping episodes for Mamma Mia subscribers all 9 00:00:30,767 --> 00:00:33,407 Speaker 2: holidays long. As a subscriber, you're going to get full 10 00:00:33,407 --> 00:00:36,167 Speaker 2: access to out loud, including the back catalog of over 11 00:00:36,247 --> 00:00:40,367 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes, so that will 12 00:00:40,447 --> 00:00:42,887 Speaker 2: keep you busy for a really long time when you 13 00:00:42,887 --> 00:00:45,567 Speaker 2: want to avoid your family at all costs. Subscribe to 14 00:00:45,567 --> 00:00:47,767 Speaker 2: Mama Maya via the link in the episode description. 15 00:00:48,127 --> 00:00:51,047 Speaker 1: Hey, out louders, it's meya. As part of Hot Pod Summer, 16 00:00:51,207 --> 00:00:53,687 Speaker 1: we're putting all sorts of little treats into your ears. 17 00:00:53,807 --> 00:00:57,407 Speaker 1: And this one is a cracker. It's an interview I 18 00:00:57,407 --> 00:01:00,047 Speaker 1: did for No Filter, which is another podcast that I host. 19 00:01:00,087 --> 00:01:03,687 Speaker 1: Hope you listened to that too. David Finch one day 20 00:01:04,087 --> 00:01:06,127 Speaker 1: a few years ago, he was getting out of the 21 00:01:06,127 --> 00:01:11,407 Speaker 1: shower and his wife came in and said, I don't 22 00:01:11,407 --> 00:01:14,647 Speaker 1: want to be married anymore. And he was like, oh, 23 00:01:14,847 --> 00:01:17,127 Speaker 1: do you want to get divorced? And she's like, no, 24 00:01:17,167 --> 00:01:18,727 Speaker 1: I don't want to get divorced, but I want to 25 00:01:18,727 --> 00:01:22,847 Speaker 1: be unmarried. And he was very confused because he'd made 26 00:01:22,927 --> 00:01:26,607 Speaker 1: a whole career out of being the world's most perfect husband, 27 00:01:26,647 --> 00:01:29,407 Speaker 1: had even written books about it, he gave talks about it. 28 00:01:30,167 --> 00:01:33,767 Speaker 1: But now several years later, he and his wife are 29 00:01:33,807 --> 00:01:38,887 Speaker 1: happily unmarried. We unpacked what this meant on No Filter 30 00:01:39,167 --> 00:01:42,527 Speaker 1: earlier this year, which is why I wanted to share 31 00:01:42,527 --> 00:01:44,607 Speaker 1: it with you now, particularly at this time of year. 32 00:01:44,647 --> 00:01:48,367 Speaker 1: You know, January is the time when couple therapists are 33 00:01:48,407 --> 00:01:53,647 Speaker 1: absolutely overrun. I wonder why enjoy this episode? It's really interesting. 34 00:01:54,487 --> 00:01:57,047 Speaker 3: Kristen waks in and she goes, hey, you know that 35 00:01:57,167 --> 00:02:00,287 Speaker 3: thing where we were just trying to fix our marriage. 36 00:02:00,327 --> 00:02:02,207 Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, yeah, basically the last eight years. 37 00:02:02,247 --> 00:02:04,087 Speaker 3: Of course, what's up. She's like, well, I don't want 38 00:02:04,127 --> 00:02:06,447 Speaker 3: to do that anymore. I'm out. I can't do this 39 00:02:06,567 --> 00:02:09,767 Speaker 3: marriage thing with you anymore. And I was like holding 40 00:02:09,767 --> 00:02:12,487 Speaker 3: my underwear. I was like, a minute, what do you 41 00:02:12,527 --> 00:02:13,447 Speaker 3: mean You're You're. 42 00:02:13,367 --> 00:02:16,167 Speaker 1: Out from mom and Mia? This is no Filter and 43 00:02:16,207 --> 00:02:21,007 Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman. Before David and Kristin Finch were married 44 00:02:21,247 --> 00:02:23,767 Speaker 1: and they were just dating, she found some photos on 45 00:02:23,807 --> 00:02:27,087 Speaker 1: his camera that were really well, they were really weird, 46 00:02:27,687 --> 00:02:30,967 Speaker 1: not sex weird and not cheating weird. This wasn't one 47 00:02:31,007 --> 00:02:35,527 Speaker 1: of those situations where you accidentally find incriminating evidence of infidelity. 48 00:02:35,927 --> 00:02:39,087 Speaker 1: It was not that these weren't dick pics, but they 49 00:02:39,167 --> 00:02:43,167 Speaker 1: were photos of David taken by David, and I guess 50 00:02:43,167 --> 00:02:45,407 Speaker 1: you could call them selfies, but they were not the 51 00:02:45,487 --> 00:02:48,367 Speaker 1: kind of selfies that you imagine when you hear that word. 52 00:02:49,287 --> 00:02:52,887 Speaker 1: The photos that Kristin found of her boyfriend were in 53 00:02:52,967 --> 00:02:58,487 Speaker 1: different situations, like normal situations, watching TV, or driving his car, 54 00:02:59,047 --> 00:03:03,007 Speaker 1: even sitting on the toilet, very everyday things, and he'd 55 00:03:03,047 --> 00:03:06,887 Speaker 1: taken photos of himself while he was doing them, so 56 00:03:07,007 --> 00:03:09,807 Speaker 1: yet not the usual kind of photos that are or 57 00:03:09,847 --> 00:03:14,367 Speaker 1: anyone really would take, because why would you. So of 58 00:03:14,447 --> 00:03:17,567 Speaker 1: course Kristin asked him about it, and David told her 59 00:03:17,927 --> 00:03:21,167 Speaker 1: that he wanted to understand how he looked to other 60 00:03:21,207 --> 00:03:25,087 Speaker 1: people when he was doing normal stuff, and they laughed 61 00:03:25,087 --> 00:03:27,847 Speaker 1: about it together, and even though David couldn't explain why 62 00:03:27,927 --> 00:03:31,007 Speaker 1: he did it, Kristin just kind of dismissed it as 63 00:03:31,287 --> 00:03:34,007 Speaker 1: a little quirk. I mean, she knew that David had 64 00:03:34,007 --> 00:03:36,927 Speaker 1: a bunch of quirks things that he did that seemed, 65 00:03:37,407 --> 00:03:40,607 Speaker 1: you know, a little odd. A few years later, though, 66 00:03:40,887 --> 00:03:44,687 Speaker 1: after they were married and had kids and David hit 67 00:03:44,727 --> 00:03:47,927 Speaker 1: a really rough patch in their relationship and it sparked 68 00:03:47,927 --> 00:03:52,647 Speaker 1: a discovery about David that would change everything. This discovery 69 00:03:52,727 --> 00:03:55,567 Speaker 1: even led to him writing a book about How to 70 00:03:55,607 --> 00:03:59,207 Speaker 1: Be a Perfect Husband, which became a New York Times bestseller. 71 00:04:00,127 --> 00:04:03,487 Speaker 1: And this part's quite funny. His determination to be a 72 00:04:03,487 --> 00:04:07,127 Speaker 1: perfect husband is what ultimately made his wife call time 73 00:04:07,167 --> 00:04:10,767 Speaker 1: on their marriage. This is a story with a lot 74 00:04:10,807 --> 00:04:13,687 Speaker 1: of surprises in it, mostly for David and also for 75 00:04:13,807 --> 00:04:16,367 Speaker 1: you when you hear it. So the best place to 76 00:04:16,367 --> 00:04:18,967 Speaker 1: start is at the beginning, when David was just a 77 00:04:19,047 --> 00:04:21,847 Speaker 1: kid trying to figure out how to be in the world. 78 00:04:22,807 --> 00:04:26,087 Speaker 1: So let's dive in with the very delightful David Finch. 79 00:04:27,727 --> 00:04:29,487 Speaker 1: Tell me where you grew up, David. 80 00:04:30,127 --> 00:04:33,327 Speaker 3: I grew up on a farm in northern Illinois. It's 81 00:04:33,367 --> 00:04:36,487 Speaker 3: about sixty miles northwest of Chicago, pretty close to the 82 00:04:36,527 --> 00:04:40,047 Speaker 3: Wisconsin border. And it was fantastic. 83 00:04:40,287 --> 00:04:41,487 Speaker 1: What kind of kid were you? 84 00:04:41,727 --> 00:04:43,767 Speaker 3: First of all, I know that I was a very, 85 00:04:43,887 --> 00:04:48,287 Speaker 3: very happy, to a large extent, chill kid, and I 86 00:04:48,287 --> 00:04:51,887 Speaker 3: would say quirky too. There were moments where, like my 87 00:04:51,967 --> 00:04:54,607 Speaker 3: parents were having a dinner party just with a bunch 88 00:04:54,607 --> 00:04:57,207 Speaker 3: of friends, and I would scoot along on the floor 89 00:04:57,247 --> 00:04:59,327 Speaker 3: of our house on my hands in my knees with 90 00:04:59,407 --> 00:05:03,287 Speaker 3: my forehead against the carpet, and I loved the brushing 91 00:05:03,327 --> 00:05:05,967 Speaker 3: sensation of the carpet against my forehead. It was like 92 00:05:06,087 --> 00:05:10,367 Speaker 3: very calming. It kind of transported me into this utopian 93 00:05:10,647 --> 00:05:13,287 Speaker 3: like state of mind, even when I was real young, 94 00:05:13,327 --> 00:05:15,327 Speaker 3: you know, and I was like, this feels great. So 95 00:05:15,367 --> 00:05:17,447 Speaker 3: I did it all the time. My parents were awesome. 96 00:05:17,487 --> 00:05:20,167 Speaker 3: They were just like, oh, that's just Dave. Don't mind him. 97 00:05:20,447 --> 00:05:21,007 Speaker 3: He's fine. 98 00:05:21,487 --> 00:05:24,727 Speaker 1: He's just vacuuming the floor with his face, not a problem. 99 00:05:25,207 --> 00:05:27,727 Speaker 1: Did you have friends, David, Like, did you socialize easily? 100 00:05:27,847 --> 00:05:29,527 Speaker 1: Or did other kids think that you're a bit weird? 101 00:05:29,727 --> 00:05:32,527 Speaker 3: These are great questions. I love these. Okay, So after 102 00:05:33,007 --> 00:05:35,327 Speaker 3: we'll say third grade or fourth grade or so, I 103 00:05:35,367 --> 00:05:40,687 Speaker 3: always had a very small and unchanging friend group, and 104 00:05:41,207 --> 00:05:45,967 Speaker 3: those same people are still my closest friends today. But 105 00:05:46,047 --> 00:05:48,687 Speaker 3: for the most part, I was not likely to be 106 00:05:48,847 --> 00:05:52,767 Speaker 3: the kid who was invited to We'll say just a party, like, oh, 107 00:05:52,767 --> 00:05:54,967 Speaker 3: we're doing a big party Friday night, everybody come over. 108 00:05:55,687 --> 00:05:58,487 Speaker 3: My number was not on that list, so I would 109 00:05:58,527 --> 00:06:01,367 Speaker 3: find out that everybody got together, did fun things whatever. 110 00:06:01,767 --> 00:06:04,287 Speaker 3: Looking back, that was it was really okay with me. 111 00:06:04,407 --> 00:06:06,767 Speaker 3: I always felt this notion of like, what am I 112 00:06:06,807 --> 00:06:09,407 Speaker 3: missing out on? Why am I not being an I 113 00:06:09,367 --> 00:06:12,247 Speaker 3: had to participate in these sorts of things. On the 114 00:06:12,287 --> 00:06:14,407 Speaker 3: other hand, if you had asked me put yourself in 115 00:06:14,447 --> 00:06:17,527 Speaker 3: that environment, in that party, in that situation, hanging out 116 00:06:17,567 --> 00:06:19,567 Speaker 3: with you know, people on a Friday night, would you 117 00:06:19,607 --> 00:06:21,207 Speaker 3: want to be doing that? The answer would be no, 118 00:06:21,247 --> 00:06:24,687 Speaker 3: I'd rather be at home, you know, practicing my sax phone, 119 00:06:24,727 --> 00:06:27,487 Speaker 3: drawing pictures or whatever. I always had a core group 120 00:06:27,527 --> 00:06:30,007 Speaker 3: of friends. I was lucky in that way because I 121 00:06:30,007 --> 00:06:33,807 Speaker 3: think I was regarded as sort of the funny kid, 122 00:06:34,167 --> 00:06:37,647 Speaker 3: the comedian of the group or the school. I don't 123 00:06:37,647 --> 00:06:39,167 Speaker 3: know looking back, if I was funny or if I 124 00:06:39,167 --> 00:06:41,247 Speaker 3: was just willing to be more obnoxious than the other 125 00:06:41,327 --> 00:06:43,087 Speaker 3: kids were willing to be, and so they thought that 126 00:06:43,167 --> 00:06:43,607 Speaker 3: was funny. 127 00:06:43,607 --> 00:06:45,407 Speaker 1: But were you in on the joke or were you 128 00:06:45,407 --> 00:06:47,607 Speaker 1: sort of bewildered about You'd say something that you didn't 129 00:06:47,607 --> 00:06:49,847 Speaker 1: think was funny and everyone would go, oh, Dave, you're 130 00:06:50,007 --> 00:06:53,047 Speaker 1: it's so funny when you were like, I wasn't trying 131 00:06:53,087 --> 00:06:55,687 Speaker 1: to be funny, or you would you actually push on 132 00:06:55,727 --> 00:06:56,807 Speaker 1: that button deliberately. 133 00:06:57,087 --> 00:06:59,367 Speaker 3: I'm laughing because that actually happens more now that I'm 134 00:06:59,407 --> 00:07:01,487 Speaker 3: an adult, I'm not in on the joke. When I 135 00:07:01,527 --> 00:07:04,287 Speaker 3: was a kid, I had a little more credibility. No, 136 00:07:04,367 --> 00:07:06,127 Speaker 3: when I was a kid, it was half and half. 137 00:07:06,367 --> 00:07:10,407 Speaker 3: Half the time I would architect of a funny situation 138 00:07:10,567 --> 00:07:13,127 Speaker 3: or a funny line on things, I would present it 139 00:07:13,247 --> 00:07:15,087 Speaker 3: or I would share it with people. They would agree 140 00:07:15,127 --> 00:07:18,047 Speaker 3: it was funny. And whether that was you know, just 141 00:07:18,167 --> 00:07:21,807 Speaker 3: in a conversation like real time, or if the assignment 142 00:07:21,847 --> 00:07:25,727 Speaker 3: for the classroom was we're making posters about you know, 143 00:07:25,847 --> 00:07:29,447 Speaker 3: recycling or something, then I would draw the most ridiculous 144 00:07:29,847 --> 00:07:31,927 Speaker 3: poster and I know people would laugh at that. Right then. 145 00:07:31,967 --> 00:07:34,487 Speaker 3: There are other times when I clearly was not trying 146 00:07:34,487 --> 00:07:36,247 Speaker 3: to make anybody laugh, and I was just sharing my 147 00:07:36,367 --> 00:07:39,687 Speaker 3: actual lived experience and people thought it was hilarious, And 148 00:07:39,767 --> 00:07:44,047 Speaker 3: so sometimes I felt othered. We'll say, to use that. 149 00:07:45,327 --> 00:07:47,847 Speaker 1: Fake verb, we didn't have that word back then, but 150 00:07:48,007 --> 00:07:51,127 Speaker 1: now you can see that's how you felt. Tell me 151 00:07:51,447 --> 00:07:55,327 Speaker 1: about dating, because that can be difficult for anyone to navigate. 152 00:07:55,607 --> 00:07:57,807 Speaker 1: But when you have a different view on the world, 153 00:07:57,967 --> 00:07:58,807 Speaker 1: how was it for you? 154 00:07:59,167 --> 00:08:02,967 Speaker 3: Dating was always a really interesting proposition for me because 155 00:08:03,287 --> 00:08:05,727 Speaker 3: it's said often you know of people who are on 156 00:08:05,807 --> 00:08:08,607 Speaker 3: the spectrum that do they really engage with people on 157 00:08:08,647 --> 00:08:11,327 Speaker 3: an emotional level? Do they really understand, you know, the 158 00:08:11,367 --> 00:08:14,047 Speaker 3: sort of the social dynamics, and you know, for the 159 00:08:14,047 --> 00:08:16,527 Speaker 3: most part, there are challenges with that and maybe certain 160 00:08:16,607 --> 00:08:19,127 Speaker 3: limitations if you want to call them limitations, or differences 161 00:08:19,167 --> 00:08:21,647 Speaker 3: if you want to call them differences. But for me, 162 00:08:22,407 --> 00:08:25,527 Speaker 3: dating was an interesting proposition because there was always somebody 163 00:08:25,527 --> 00:08:28,127 Speaker 3: that I was like, Oh, well, she's cute, she's funny, 164 00:08:28,167 --> 00:08:30,647 Speaker 3: I like her personality, you know, And so there's always 165 00:08:30,647 --> 00:08:32,887 Speaker 3: somebody I was interested in for one reason or another. 166 00:08:32,967 --> 00:08:35,807 Speaker 3: But when it came time, like basically in high school, 167 00:08:36,247 --> 00:08:39,167 Speaker 3: is really when I first started to maybe have girlfriends. 168 00:08:39,647 --> 00:08:42,327 Speaker 3: So I do really well when I have a model 169 00:08:42,607 --> 00:08:45,327 Speaker 3: in my head for how something is supposed to be done, 170 00:08:45,927 --> 00:08:47,887 Speaker 3: and I can kind of work that model. But until 171 00:08:47,927 --> 00:08:50,527 Speaker 3: I have that model, I don't always do well with 172 00:08:51,207 --> 00:08:55,727 Speaker 3: improvisation in such a way that the improvisation is tolerable 173 00:08:55,727 --> 00:08:58,607 Speaker 3: to others. I can improvise my way through anything, but 174 00:08:58,727 --> 00:09:01,167 Speaker 3: the key socially is to do it in an agreeable, 175 00:09:01,727 --> 00:09:05,927 Speaker 3: socially nice manner. Right. So, like, what I knew about dating, 176 00:09:06,127 --> 00:09:08,807 Speaker 3: especially when I was younger, is anything that I would 177 00:09:08,807 --> 00:09:11,167 Speaker 3: have seen in TV shows, cartoons, and movies. 178 00:09:11,247 --> 00:09:13,647 Speaker 1: So that's what you were emulating. That was the model 179 00:09:13,687 --> 00:09:14,327 Speaker 1: you were working. 180 00:09:14,527 --> 00:09:17,007 Speaker 3: I was emulating that, which is dangerous when you're emulating 181 00:09:17,047 --> 00:09:20,647 Speaker 3: Peppi Lapew and you're like all this this amorous, like, ooh, 182 00:09:21,047 --> 00:09:22,087 Speaker 3: you know you're so beautiful? 183 00:09:22,447 --> 00:09:24,567 Speaker 1: Illegal now yeah. 184 00:09:24,047 --> 00:09:25,607 Speaker 3: Nowadays, Yeah, I'd be thrown in jail. 185 00:09:25,887 --> 00:09:29,007 Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell me about the improvising. Give me an example 186 00:09:29,047 --> 00:09:32,007 Speaker 1: of a situation where you improvised, but because you didn't 187 00:09:32,047 --> 00:09:33,367 Speaker 1: have a model, it didn't land. 188 00:09:33,807 --> 00:09:36,487 Speaker 3: God, that's such a good question, because I always referred 189 00:09:36,527 --> 00:09:39,527 Speaker 3: back to models all this levity and joking for the 190 00:09:39,567 --> 00:09:42,527 Speaker 3: last couple of minutes. The moment of biggest import for 191 00:09:42,607 --> 00:09:45,367 Speaker 3: me personally in terms of not having a model and 192 00:09:45,407 --> 00:09:49,367 Speaker 3: feeling completely fish out of water about it, was when 193 00:09:49,447 --> 00:09:53,047 Speaker 3: my best friend Kristen, who is now my wife, lost 194 00:09:53,247 --> 00:09:57,047 Speaker 3: somebody very, very important to her. She lost her fiance, 195 00:09:57,207 --> 00:09:58,607 Speaker 3: and I don't want to get ahead of the story, 196 00:09:58,687 --> 00:10:01,847 Speaker 3: but she lost her fiance, Mike, in a car accident 197 00:10:01,927 --> 00:10:05,687 Speaker 3: when we were in our early twenties, and Mike was 198 00:10:05,687 --> 00:10:08,487 Speaker 3: somebody that I had grown up with in school as well, 199 00:10:08,567 --> 00:10:13,847 Speaker 3: and along with Kristin. I remember I was always Kristin's funny, 200 00:10:13,887 --> 00:10:17,607 Speaker 3: dorky friend as we were just discussing. But when Mike died, 201 00:10:17,927 --> 00:10:19,527 Speaker 3: I did not know how to show up for a 202 00:10:19,567 --> 00:10:21,367 Speaker 3: friend who was grieving. I knew how to show up 203 00:10:21,407 --> 00:10:24,727 Speaker 3: for a friend who was happy or annoyed, a little 204 00:10:24,767 --> 00:10:28,287 Speaker 3: bit sad, you know, all these different emotional states, but 205 00:10:28,567 --> 00:10:32,447 Speaker 3: truly grieving and not feeling like yourself anymore, and not 206 00:10:32,447 --> 00:10:35,967 Speaker 3: being able to process the enormity of what just happened 207 00:10:36,007 --> 00:10:39,047 Speaker 3: in your life, the tragedy of it. I felt like 208 00:10:39,087 --> 00:10:41,447 Speaker 3: a terrible friend because there was a period for about 209 00:10:41,447 --> 00:10:43,207 Speaker 3: a year and a half where I just I had 210 00:10:43,207 --> 00:10:46,007 Speaker 3: no idea how to show up for Kristin. And normally 211 00:10:46,647 --> 00:10:49,207 Speaker 3: I was somebody who always knew how to show up 212 00:10:49,207 --> 00:10:50,767 Speaker 3: for her, how to get a laugh out of her. 213 00:10:51,087 --> 00:10:54,047 Speaker 1: You know that's interesting that you say that, David, because 214 00:10:54,807 --> 00:10:56,967 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would have known how to show 215 00:10:57,047 --> 00:10:59,807 Speaker 1: up for Kristin in that situation. I wouldn't, at age 216 00:10:59,847 --> 00:11:03,167 Speaker 1: fifty two as I am now, with all the social 217 00:11:03,167 --> 00:11:06,447 Speaker 1: awareness and insight that I have, and I'm not neurodiverse 218 00:11:06,487 --> 00:11:08,407 Speaker 1: in the same way that you are, I wouldn't know 219 00:11:08,687 --> 00:11:10,687 Speaker 1: what to do in that moment. Like I've got a 220 00:11:10,687 --> 00:11:13,047 Speaker 1: friend whose father just died and she's devastated. I don't 221 00:11:13,087 --> 00:11:14,967 Speaker 1: know how to show up for her in the right way. 222 00:11:15,127 --> 00:11:18,367 Speaker 1: So just must have been an incredibly tough thing, you know, 223 00:11:18,407 --> 00:11:21,167 Speaker 1: in neurodiversity aside, how did you navigate it with her? 224 00:11:21,407 --> 00:11:23,807 Speaker 3: What ended up happening was after a year and a 225 00:11:23,847 --> 00:11:27,207 Speaker 3: half of Kristin and me not really connecting, not really 226 00:11:27,647 --> 00:11:29,767 Speaker 3: seeing each other at all, but not even calling each 227 00:11:29,767 --> 00:11:33,687 Speaker 3: other on the phone. This was before texting. Prior to that, 228 00:11:33,727 --> 00:11:36,927 Speaker 3: we would see each other pretty regularly and do fun things, 229 00:11:36,927 --> 00:11:40,367 Speaker 3: hang out, do social things, talk, write letters to each other, 230 00:11:40,487 --> 00:11:43,687 Speaker 3: mail and back and forth. But after Mike died, she 231 00:11:44,327 --> 00:11:47,327 Speaker 3: really shut down, like her whole self just kind of 232 00:11:47,807 --> 00:11:50,407 Speaker 3: went away for a little while. I had reached out 233 00:11:50,407 --> 00:11:54,007 Speaker 3: a few times, just leaving messages on the answering machine 234 00:11:54,087 --> 00:11:56,007 Speaker 3: and just saying hey, I'm here. You know, just if 235 00:11:56,047 --> 00:11:57,807 Speaker 3: you ever want to get together, let me know. No 236 00:11:57,927 --> 00:12:00,487 Speaker 3: phone calls back. And that didn't bother me because it 237 00:12:00,527 --> 00:12:03,767 Speaker 3: wasn't expecting one. So after about a year and a half, 238 00:12:04,167 --> 00:12:06,887 Speaker 3: she and I ended up living in the same town, 239 00:12:07,447 --> 00:12:10,807 Speaker 3: across the street from each other. She called me one 240 00:12:11,247 --> 00:12:13,727 Speaker 3: late afternoon, it was actually around dinner time, and she said, 241 00:12:14,487 --> 00:12:16,447 Speaker 3: I would love to go get a cup of coffee. 242 00:12:16,447 --> 00:12:20,127 Speaker 3: Are you around. I was like, oh my god, yeah, 243 00:12:20,207 --> 00:12:22,047 Speaker 3: I would love to get a cup of coffee with you. 244 00:12:22,087 --> 00:12:24,487 Speaker 3: Now that was a lie. People say like, oh, you 245 00:12:24,527 --> 00:12:26,487 Speaker 3: got aspergers. You can't tell lies. No, I can lie, 246 00:12:26,527 --> 00:12:29,567 Speaker 3: And that was a big That was a big, big, 247 00:12:29,607 --> 00:12:32,447 Speaker 3: white phony lie. Because at the time I hated coffee. 248 00:12:32,847 --> 00:12:35,207 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have touched it otherwise. But it was Kristen. 249 00:12:35,287 --> 00:12:37,487 Speaker 3: It was like this really close best friend of mine 250 00:12:37,567 --> 00:12:39,807 Speaker 3: resurfacing after a year and a half. So I was like, oh, yeah, 251 00:12:39,847 --> 00:12:42,407 Speaker 3: I love coffee. I can't get enough of it. So 252 00:12:42,967 --> 00:12:44,727 Speaker 3: I put on my coat and I stood there at 253 00:12:44,727 --> 00:12:48,007 Speaker 3: the door and she came over to pick me up. 254 00:12:48,687 --> 00:12:52,287 Speaker 3: We went got coffee that night, and it was a 255 00:12:52,367 --> 00:12:56,407 Speaker 3: really interesting evening because I'm much better at banter and 256 00:12:56,487 --> 00:12:59,767 Speaker 3: small talk and just sort of social pleasantry conversation. Now, 257 00:12:59,967 --> 00:13:01,407 Speaker 3: you know, if you're sitting next to somebody on a 258 00:13:01,407 --> 00:13:03,247 Speaker 3: four hour flight and they start yapping at you, and 259 00:13:03,287 --> 00:13:06,087 Speaker 3: I can carry that conversation. Finally, at age forty seven, 260 00:13:06,687 --> 00:13:08,727 Speaker 3: but I had at that time in my life just 261 00:13:08,847 --> 00:13:13,127 Speaker 3: know about for gab and small talk. So with Kristen, 262 00:13:13,527 --> 00:13:15,767 Speaker 3: we sat down with our coffees. By the way, I 263 00:13:15,767 --> 00:13:17,967 Speaker 3: had no idea what even to order. It was a 264 00:13:18,007 --> 00:13:21,847 Speaker 3: Starbucks coffee place, and so she ordered this white chocolate 265 00:13:21,927 --> 00:13:25,087 Speaker 3: mocha and I listened very closely to how she ordered, 266 00:13:25,087 --> 00:13:26,927 Speaker 3: and I was like, that sounds good. I would also 267 00:13:27,007 --> 00:13:32,687 Speaker 3: like a white chocolate mocha, and just following her lead, 268 00:13:33,007 --> 00:13:35,407 Speaker 3: so we both sat down with our white chocolate mochas. 269 00:13:35,687 --> 00:13:36,487 Speaker 1: Sounds delicious. 270 00:13:36,847 --> 00:13:38,527 Speaker 3: It was delicious. I got to say it made me 271 00:13:38,527 --> 00:13:41,047 Speaker 3: a coffee drinker, or maybe it was her company that 272 00:13:41,087 --> 00:13:44,007 Speaker 3: made me a coffee drinker. But I just launched right 273 00:13:44,087 --> 00:13:47,847 Speaker 3: into I haven't seen you in forever, how are you doing? 274 00:13:47,887 --> 00:13:50,527 Speaker 3: And she'd be like, you know, the first couple questions 275 00:13:50,567 --> 00:13:52,207 Speaker 3: I asked, she was just like, ah, you know, I mean, 276 00:13:52,567 --> 00:13:55,527 Speaker 3: not awesome, but doing okay, putting on the brave face 277 00:13:55,567 --> 00:13:58,167 Speaker 3: sort of thing, and I could see the brave face act, 278 00:13:58,407 --> 00:14:00,527 Speaker 3: and so I just kind of cut to the chase 279 00:14:00,567 --> 00:14:02,407 Speaker 3: and said, I don't know if there's an answer for this, 280 00:14:02,527 --> 00:14:05,287 Speaker 3: but like, what would you say you regret the most 281 00:14:05,327 --> 00:14:07,367 Speaker 3: having lost Mike but not being able to say goodbye 282 00:14:07,367 --> 00:14:09,007 Speaker 3: to him because it was so abrupt, Like, what is 283 00:14:09,007 --> 00:14:10,607 Speaker 3: the biggest thing that you've been dealing with for the 284 00:14:10,687 --> 00:14:13,487 Speaker 3: last year and a half. Yeah, nobody had asked her 285 00:14:13,567 --> 00:14:18,847 Speaker 3: questions like this, and it might sound insensitive, terrible, borderline 286 00:14:19,487 --> 00:14:22,607 Speaker 3: cruel or barbaric to ask those sorts of questions, but 287 00:14:22,727 --> 00:14:25,087 Speaker 3: I just started asking her one after another of these 288 00:14:25,807 --> 00:14:30,207 Speaker 3: these heavy hitting, like sixty minutes, you know, investigative journalism 289 00:14:30,247 --> 00:14:31,087 Speaker 3: type questions. 290 00:14:31,407 --> 00:14:32,607 Speaker 1: How did it turn into love? 291 00:14:33,167 --> 00:14:36,207 Speaker 3: Well, I'm an endlessly lovable person. 292 00:14:36,767 --> 00:14:40,927 Speaker 1: Clearly, I'm already in love with you, Diamond Book, Can 293 00:14:40,967 --> 00:14:43,287 Speaker 1: I say, and it's only been twenty minutes. 294 00:14:44,407 --> 00:14:48,407 Speaker 3: If only we weren't literally twenty four hours separated exactly. 295 00:14:48,607 --> 00:14:51,687 Speaker 3: That's an interesting question too, because, by the way, I 296 00:14:51,727 --> 00:14:53,367 Speaker 3: love how your listeners are going to be listening to 297 00:14:53,407 --> 00:14:55,007 Speaker 3: this episode and they're going to be like, can you 298 00:14:55,087 --> 00:14:59,247 Speaker 3: just answer one of her fucking questions without this whole 299 00:14:59,287 --> 00:15:03,047 Speaker 3: thirty minute preamble. There was always a love with Kristin 300 00:15:03,127 --> 00:15:06,007 Speaker 3: and me. We knew each other way back when we 301 00:15:06,007 --> 00:15:11,247 Speaker 3: were in preschool. He has known me. Out of all 302 00:15:11,367 --> 00:15:13,847 Speaker 3: the people that I've consciously known in my life, she's 303 00:15:14,087 --> 00:15:15,767 Speaker 3: one of the people who has known me the longest. 304 00:15:16,047 --> 00:15:20,087 Speaker 3: And now she's very aware of people and what's going 305 00:15:20,127 --> 00:15:23,007 Speaker 3: on around her, so she would have noticed me and 306 00:15:23,047 --> 00:15:26,407 Speaker 3: maybe compartmentalized me as like, Okay, that's the funny weird kid. 307 00:15:26,447 --> 00:15:29,487 Speaker 3: Got it cool. Then when we were in high school, 308 00:15:29,567 --> 00:15:33,087 Speaker 3: it really turned We became really i would say, good friends. 309 00:15:33,087 --> 00:15:36,127 Speaker 3: In high school. We had the same line on things. 310 00:15:36,167 --> 00:15:38,207 Speaker 3: We had a very similar sense of humor. 311 00:15:38,847 --> 00:15:41,407 Speaker 1: After the short break, how David got himself out of 312 00:15:41,407 --> 00:15:45,447 Speaker 1: the friend zone with Kristin and embarked on marriage and 313 00:15:45,487 --> 00:15:48,767 Speaker 1: fatherhood and also what he discovered about himself in the 314 00:15:48,767 --> 00:15:58,007 Speaker 1: process that he never expected. Did you ever have a 315 00:15:58,007 --> 00:16:00,567 Speaker 1: crush on her? Or it was platonic for you? 316 00:16:01,007 --> 00:16:06,447 Speaker 3: It was platonic by circumstance. Then when Mike died, it 317 00:16:06,527 --> 00:16:08,847 Speaker 3: was when Kristin and Mike were both in grad school, 318 00:16:09,447 --> 00:16:13,407 Speaker 3: just graduated from undergrad and had started working already. After 319 00:16:13,487 --> 00:16:14,967 Speaker 3: Mike died, it was a year and a half then 320 00:16:15,047 --> 00:16:17,567 Speaker 3: Christen and I started hanging out, we started getting coffee, 321 00:16:18,207 --> 00:16:20,967 Speaker 3: and she was still my very beautiful friend. But it 322 00:16:21,007 --> 00:16:25,527 Speaker 3: wasn't like that high school mania of desire. 323 00:16:25,167 --> 00:16:26,527 Speaker 1: And lost in homes. 324 00:16:26,567 --> 00:16:31,407 Speaker 3: Yeah, mormonesia, that doesn't help. It had very well calmed 325 00:16:31,407 --> 00:16:33,487 Speaker 3: down to just like, wow, look at how beautiful my 326 00:16:33,527 --> 00:16:36,207 Speaker 3: friend is, and I love being here with her talking. 327 00:16:37,127 --> 00:16:40,847 Speaker 3: But apparently that first night was so deeply therapeutic for 328 00:16:40,887 --> 00:16:44,567 Speaker 3: her with all my terrible Barbara Walter's questions that then 329 00:16:44,967 --> 00:16:47,447 Speaker 3: it was, hey, let's do this again next week. So 330 00:16:47,527 --> 00:16:50,527 Speaker 3: it was coffee every every week, right, every Tuesday. Then 331 00:16:50,567 --> 00:16:53,847 Speaker 3: it was coffee every few days. Then it was coffee 332 00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:56,487 Speaker 3: and dinner every few days. Then it was dinner every day, 333 00:16:56,567 --> 00:16:58,367 Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden we just knew, like, 334 00:16:58,607 --> 00:17:01,607 Speaker 3: you know, that was months and months of just sort 335 00:17:01,607 --> 00:17:06,007 Speaker 3: of surprising discovery that I had already you know, tapped 336 00:17:06,007 --> 00:17:08,047 Speaker 3: out and was like, you know, we're not a thing, 337 00:17:08,127 --> 00:17:10,567 Speaker 3: or we wouldn't be, So I wasn't even thinking in 338 00:17:10,567 --> 00:17:12,727 Speaker 3: those terms. And then when we were spending so much 339 00:17:12,727 --> 00:17:15,767 Speaker 3: time together, we both were just like, this feels really right. 340 00:17:16,007 --> 00:17:17,207 Speaker 1: How old were you guys then. 341 00:17:17,367 --> 00:17:19,967 Speaker 3: Early twenties twenty three, twenty four. 342 00:17:19,807 --> 00:17:22,767 Speaker 1: And you talk about being on your best behavior in 343 00:17:22,807 --> 00:17:27,367 Speaker 1: that early phase when you were dating, what were you masking? Like? 344 00:17:27,887 --> 00:17:30,607 Speaker 1: What kinds of things were you not showing her when 345 00:17:30,687 --> 00:17:31,847 Speaker 1: you're in your best behavior? 346 00:17:32,207 --> 00:17:34,767 Speaker 3: The masking thing is really interesting. If you would say, 347 00:17:34,847 --> 00:17:37,967 Speaker 3: like to a twenty three year old man, single guy, 348 00:17:38,727 --> 00:17:40,327 Speaker 3: what does it mean to be on your best behavior 349 00:17:40,367 --> 00:17:42,487 Speaker 3: on a date? They might say things like, keep your 350 00:17:42,487 --> 00:17:45,287 Speaker 3: hands to yourself, don't be leering at your date, don't 351 00:17:45,287 --> 00:17:47,767 Speaker 3: make suggestive, rude, disgusting. 352 00:17:47,247 --> 00:17:48,767 Speaker 1: Comments, don't drink too much. 353 00:17:48,887 --> 00:17:51,287 Speaker 3: Yeah, don't drink too much, right, don't get into bar fights. 354 00:17:51,327 --> 00:17:53,087 Speaker 3: Maybe unless she's into that sort of thing, and you 355 00:17:53,167 --> 00:17:56,927 Speaker 3: might win some favor with Kristen. Being on my best 356 00:17:56,927 --> 00:18:01,247 Speaker 3: behavior was anything that she wanted to do socially, I 357 00:18:01,287 --> 00:18:04,887 Speaker 3: would just say yes to blindly. Inside, I might not 358 00:18:04,967 --> 00:18:07,847 Speaker 3: want to go to the Big Taste of Chicago Festival, 359 00:18:08,247 --> 00:18:11,447 Speaker 3: which just this huge, hot Fourth of July festival. It's sticky, 360 00:18:11,527 --> 00:18:15,567 Speaker 3: there's food vendors. It's a nightmare. Frankly, there's shirtless guys 361 00:18:15,567 --> 00:18:19,367 Speaker 3: with upside down visors spilling beer on you. And it's like, ah, 362 00:18:19,447 --> 00:18:22,647 Speaker 3: it's like my worst nightmare. But Kristen, being a very 363 00:18:22,727 --> 00:18:26,807 Speaker 3: social person, she loved the taste of Chicago Festival. So 364 00:18:26,847 --> 00:18:28,847 Speaker 3: the very first year that we were dating, she was like, 365 00:18:28,927 --> 00:18:31,567 Speaker 3: want to go to the fourth with me? I was like, yes, there, 366 00:18:31,767 --> 00:18:34,767 Speaker 3: truly is nothing now would rather do more than stand there? 367 00:18:35,047 --> 00:18:37,007 Speaker 1: Well, that'd be coffee. That the only thing that would 368 00:18:37,007 --> 00:18:38,727 Speaker 1: make me happy is if I could have coffee at 369 00:18:38,767 --> 00:18:39,887 Speaker 1: this festival. 370 00:18:40,487 --> 00:18:44,087 Speaker 3: Totally yeah, with two cups of coffee in each hand. 371 00:18:43,887 --> 00:18:46,607 Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm my happy place. 372 00:18:46,687 --> 00:18:50,047 Speaker 3: Let's go, Let's go talk to some college age men. 373 00:18:50,327 --> 00:18:51,047 Speaker 3: This will be fun. 374 00:18:51,127 --> 00:18:51,487 Speaker 1: Yeah. 375 00:18:51,527 --> 00:18:55,287 Speaker 3: So I'd never advocated for those sorts of things that 376 00:18:56,087 --> 00:19:00,927 Speaker 3: truly I would have preferred. I was just all in 377 00:19:01,087 --> 00:19:03,327 Speaker 3: on Listen, you're dating your best friend. 378 00:19:03,327 --> 00:19:03,527 Speaker 1: Now. 379 00:19:03,607 --> 00:19:06,447 Speaker 3: If you screw this up, you've lost a girlfriend and 380 00:19:06,527 --> 00:19:11,167 Speaker 3: your best friend, so stakes don't screw it up. It's 381 00:19:11,167 --> 00:19:13,807 Speaker 3: sort of like every day that we were dating, it 382 00:19:13,887 --> 00:19:16,847 Speaker 3: was like I was showing up to reinterview for that 383 00:19:16,927 --> 00:19:20,087 Speaker 3: same job every morning. So you know, when you go 384 00:19:20,087 --> 00:19:22,287 Speaker 3: into an interview with someone, you're like, hi, very great, 385 00:19:22,367 --> 00:19:26,047 Speaker 3: oh man, traffic was a breeze, you know, positive energy 386 00:19:26,207 --> 00:19:26,767 Speaker 3: got here early. 387 00:19:26,807 --> 00:19:30,887 Speaker 1: I'm always ely. You wrote that when you slipped from 388 00:19:30,927 --> 00:19:34,447 Speaker 1: your best behavior, you wrote, she seemed to find my 389 00:19:34,527 --> 00:19:38,127 Speaker 1: eccentricity and endearing. I remember her laughter upon discovering dozens 390 00:19:38,167 --> 00:19:40,647 Speaker 1: of pictures I had taken of myself to see what 391 00:19:40,687 --> 00:19:43,247 Speaker 1: I might look like to other people at any given moment, 392 00:19:43,607 --> 00:19:47,127 Speaker 1: me watching TV, me about to sneeze, me on the toilet, 393 00:19:47,167 --> 00:19:50,247 Speaker 1: looking pensive. Why did you take these photos? Day? 394 00:19:52,927 --> 00:19:56,127 Speaker 3: Right around my twenties, it really started to occur to 395 00:19:56,167 --> 00:19:58,167 Speaker 3: me because I was working in an office then, and 396 00:19:58,207 --> 00:20:00,447 Speaker 3: it was starting to occur to me. I knew what 397 00:20:00,527 --> 00:20:03,607 Speaker 3: everybody else looked like, and I was studying their mannerisms, 398 00:20:04,087 --> 00:20:06,807 Speaker 3: but I don't know how I'm coming off to other people. 399 00:20:07,007 --> 00:20:09,167 Speaker 3: Part of what was fueling this, or driving this was 400 00:20:09,687 --> 00:20:12,367 Speaker 3: I would have people come and stop by my cubicle 401 00:20:12,407 --> 00:20:14,887 Speaker 3: at work a couple of times a week and just 402 00:20:14,927 --> 00:20:16,767 Speaker 3: be like or even in the middle of a meeting, 403 00:20:16,847 --> 00:20:19,087 Speaker 3: like in a conference room somewhere, somebody would kind of 404 00:20:19,127 --> 00:20:21,847 Speaker 3: pull me aside and be like, are you okay? Everything okay? Like, yeah, 405 00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:24,607 Speaker 3: everything's fine. Why do you ask? Like you look so 406 00:20:24,887 --> 00:20:26,567 Speaker 3: angry right now, Like you look like you want to 407 00:20:26,647 --> 00:20:30,327 Speaker 3: kill someone. And it turns out you've heard of resting 408 00:20:30,407 --> 00:20:34,047 Speaker 3: bitch face. Yeah, so I've got resting psycho face apparently. 409 00:20:34,167 --> 00:20:37,407 Speaker 3: So the thing was I had this digital camera, so 410 00:20:37,407 --> 00:20:39,367 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is cool, you know, and 411 00:20:39,567 --> 00:20:41,967 Speaker 3: I could review it in real time. I must have 412 00:20:42,047 --> 00:20:44,727 Speaker 3: left the camera on the kitchen counter or something. That's 413 00:20:44,767 --> 00:20:47,527 Speaker 3: how my memory places it on the kitchen counter. Kristen 414 00:20:47,527 --> 00:20:49,367 Speaker 3: grabbed it and she was like, oh, what are these 415 00:20:49,407 --> 00:20:51,767 Speaker 3: and she just started flipping through them and it was 416 00:20:51,847 --> 00:20:53,967 Speaker 3: no photos of our pet, it was no photos of 417 00:20:53,967 --> 00:20:56,607 Speaker 3: our house. It was just a million pictures of me 418 00:20:56,647 --> 00:20:58,127 Speaker 3: making different facial expressions. 419 00:20:58,807 --> 00:21:01,927 Speaker 1: And this is before selfies. The selfies wasn't even a word, right, 420 00:21:02,407 --> 00:21:04,967 Speaker 1: So that must have been really interesting for her, right, 421 00:21:05,287 --> 00:21:06,407 Speaker 1: And how did she react? 422 00:21:06,847 --> 00:21:10,287 Speaker 3: She laughed. She laughed so hard and for so long. 423 00:21:11,007 --> 00:21:14,367 Speaker 3: It wasn't just in the moment. Days later, anytime she 424 00:21:14,447 --> 00:21:18,327 Speaker 3: thought of it, she would just start like deep belly 425 00:21:18,367 --> 00:21:21,767 Speaker 3: laughing that would come from deep inside her soul were 426 00:21:21,847 --> 00:21:24,967 Speaker 3: just like erupped for She just thought it was great. 427 00:21:25,007 --> 00:21:27,807 Speaker 3: She was like, what a weird guy that I'm dating. 428 00:21:28,247 --> 00:21:31,527 Speaker 3: She loved it. She really loves people who are authentic. 429 00:21:31,647 --> 00:21:34,727 Speaker 3: She loves people who are not you know, mass produced 430 00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:38,247 Speaker 3: humans that are kind of unique and quirky and strange. 431 00:21:38,447 --> 00:21:40,607 Speaker 1: You also wrote, she loved the story of how I 432 00:21:40,647 --> 00:21:43,247 Speaker 1: took an emergency leave from work to boil my glasses 433 00:21:43,247 --> 00:21:45,447 Speaker 1: after they'd fallen from my shirt pocket in a men's 434 00:21:45,487 --> 00:21:48,247 Speaker 1: room stall. She found it pitifully charming when I would 435 00:21:48,247 --> 00:21:51,087 Speaker 1: stand alone at parties kind of dancing, or follow with 436 00:21:51,127 --> 00:21:54,087 Speaker 1: her from room to room, unable to engage with anyone else. 437 00:21:54,447 --> 00:21:59,207 Speaker 1: That's just how it goes with Asperger's. Of course, you 438 00:21:59,247 --> 00:22:02,967 Speaker 1: didn't know that's what it was then, you were just quirky. 439 00:22:03,207 --> 00:22:06,207 Speaker 1: But she had a clue because she worked as a 440 00:22:06,247 --> 00:22:10,727 Speaker 1: speech pathologist who works with kids who are on the spectrum. 441 00:22:10,367 --> 00:22:14,367 Speaker 3: Right exactly, And that's an interesting twist in all of this. 442 00:22:14,967 --> 00:22:18,407 Speaker 3: So I mentioned she really loves and just prefers in 443 00:22:18,487 --> 00:22:22,127 Speaker 3: life to be around quirky, unique individuals, and something that 444 00:22:22,167 --> 00:22:24,767 Speaker 3: we find in a lot of folks on the spectrum 445 00:22:24,807 --> 00:22:28,967 Speaker 3: the autism spectrum, certainly, is this sort of quirkiness, and 446 00:22:29,007 --> 00:22:31,687 Speaker 3: it's a quirkiness that comes from a very innocent place. 447 00:22:32,007 --> 00:22:36,127 Speaker 3: It's not this wilful denial of social norms. It's just 448 00:22:36,847 --> 00:22:39,007 Speaker 3: if those norms haven't been presented to me in a 449 00:22:39,047 --> 00:22:43,687 Speaker 3: way that I've internalized and I'm willing to perpetuate and emulate. 450 00:22:44,447 --> 00:22:46,527 Speaker 3: I don't have time for it, so we end up 451 00:22:46,647 --> 00:22:50,287 Speaker 3: just acting the way we act. Her first professional love 452 00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:52,927 Speaker 3: in life was autism. Right after grad school, she was 453 00:22:52,967 --> 00:22:55,967 Speaker 3: working with kids with autism in the elementary school kind 454 00:22:55,967 --> 00:22:59,047 Speaker 3: of age group. And that's also when we started dating. 455 00:22:59,607 --> 00:23:03,247 Speaker 3: And she never quite lined up the two cards of 456 00:23:03,367 --> 00:23:07,287 Speaker 3: like autism and Dave. Then she started working with kids 457 00:23:07,287 --> 00:23:11,607 Speaker 3: with Asperger syndrome diagnoses, which is no longer technically a thing, 458 00:23:11,607 --> 00:23:13,087 Speaker 3: but it really is a thing. A lot of us 459 00:23:13,327 --> 00:23:17,607 Speaker 3: identify as having this particular quote unquote version or expression 460 00:23:17,647 --> 00:23:20,127 Speaker 3: of autism, however you want to put it. She started 461 00:23:20,127 --> 00:23:23,247 Speaker 3: working with that population of kids, and then she started 462 00:23:23,287 --> 00:23:26,647 Speaker 3: meeting the dads and the moms of those kids, and 463 00:23:26,687 --> 00:23:30,847 Speaker 3: she was like, huh. And that's when she started to see, like, gee, 464 00:23:31,287 --> 00:23:35,527 Speaker 3: Dave's rigid flexibility. It wasn't called masking, like we didn't 465 00:23:35,527 --> 00:23:37,727 Speaker 3: have that word masking back then, but just the way 466 00:23:37,727 --> 00:23:41,127 Speaker 3: that Dave sort of puts on different characters, like he 467 00:23:41,207 --> 00:23:45,167 Speaker 3: wears personas, like other people wear outfits of clothing for 468 00:23:45,207 --> 00:23:49,127 Speaker 3: any different circumstance socially, you know, the way that I 469 00:23:49,207 --> 00:23:52,807 Speaker 3: would insist on sort of a routine, and there are 470 00:23:53,127 --> 00:23:57,727 Speaker 3: very clearly defined parameters for what constitutes a breakfast, and 471 00:23:57,807 --> 00:23:59,687 Speaker 3: if you haven't served me orange juice, we haven't had 472 00:23:59,687 --> 00:24:01,607 Speaker 3: breakfast yet. I can't get my day started yet, So 473 00:24:01,647 --> 00:24:03,647 Speaker 3: can you please get me some orange juice? All that 474 00:24:03,687 --> 00:24:07,967 Speaker 3: sort of stuff. She really then started to piece together 475 00:24:08,047 --> 00:24:12,447 Speaker 3: that you know, well, gosh, Dave's very similar. I'm seeing 476 00:24:12,447 --> 00:24:15,207 Speaker 3: a lot of things that are consistent with these children 477 00:24:15,207 --> 00:24:18,527 Speaker 3: and adults with Asperger syndrome. And it's important to note here, 478 00:24:18,767 --> 00:24:20,487 Speaker 3: and I'm sure we'll get into it, It's important to 479 00:24:20,527 --> 00:24:23,047 Speaker 3: note here that at that time we had been married 480 00:24:23,087 --> 00:24:27,087 Speaker 3: five years and our marriage was not going well. 481 00:24:27,207 --> 00:24:30,327 Speaker 1: After this break how David finally gets the diagnosis that 482 00:24:30,407 --> 00:24:40,207 Speaker 1: will change his life. We will get into that. You 483 00:24:40,247 --> 00:24:43,287 Speaker 1: were married, you had kids. Both of those things can 484 00:24:43,407 --> 00:24:47,447 Speaker 1: be quite disruptive, as nonderstatement, but can really change the 485 00:24:47,527 --> 00:24:50,567 Speaker 1: dynamics of a relationship and really be a lot of 486 00:24:50,607 --> 00:24:55,887 Speaker 1: stress on a person, particularly if the way your aspergers 487 00:24:55,927 --> 00:24:59,407 Speaker 1: manifested was that rigidity and around routines. Well, that's one 488 00:24:59,407 --> 00:25:02,687 Speaker 1: of the ways. What was marriage and fatherhood like for 489 00:25:02,727 --> 00:25:05,687 Speaker 1: you in those early years in terms of the biggest 490 00:25:05,687 --> 00:25:08,127 Speaker 1: struggles that were caused by your aspergers. 491 00:25:08,727 --> 00:25:13,047 Speaker 3: So importantly, we can draw a thick, solid line right 492 00:25:13,127 --> 00:25:17,367 Speaker 3: down the middle of what is a challenge because I 493 00:25:17,407 --> 00:25:20,847 Speaker 3: had aspergers, and what is a challenge just because it's 494 00:25:20,967 --> 00:25:24,327 Speaker 3: marriage and kids. So in some ways you almost have 495 00:25:24,407 --> 00:25:27,007 Speaker 3: to look at them separately. If you really want to 496 00:25:27,207 --> 00:25:29,487 Speaker 3: get to the nuances of things, We'll start with marriage. 497 00:25:29,527 --> 00:25:32,767 Speaker 3: For me, marriage was okay, we are living together now 498 00:25:32,807 --> 00:25:38,087 Speaker 3: in the same house, and there's no shutdown period for me. 499 00:25:38,687 --> 00:25:40,407 Speaker 3: So when we were dating and we were not living 500 00:25:40,447 --> 00:25:42,447 Speaker 3: in the same house, we each had our own apartment. 501 00:25:42,927 --> 00:25:45,167 Speaker 3: I could spend the day with her being the greatest 502 00:25:45,247 --> 00:25:47,167 Speaker 3: version of a boyfriend you've ever seen in your life, 503 00:25:47,207 --> 00:25:51,687 Speaker 3: like the quintessential excellent boyfriend, high energy, you know, very positive, 504 00:25:52,047 --> 00:25:55,487 Speaker 3: very willing to show up and do things, do that 505 00:25:55,527 --> 00:25:57,287 Speaker 3: all day long, and then say all right, good night, 506 00:25:57,367 --> 00:26:00,207 Speaker 3: go back home to my apartment, and I could just recharge. 507 00:26:00,447 --> 00:26:01,847 Speaker 1: Didn't have to be on your best behavior. 508 00:26:01,967 --> 00:26:04,087 Speaker 3: You you didn't have to be on my best behavior. 509 00:26:03,727 --> 00:26:05,127 Speaker 1: Which is what we now call masking. 510 00:26:05,287 --> 00:26:07,127 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally. 511 00:26:06,767 --> 00:26:08,527 Speaker 1: You could do with you. We'd stuff alone. 512 00:26:08,607 --> 00:26:11,967 Speaker 3: I could take the mask off. And the mask was 513 00:26:12,007 --> 00:26:15,047 Speaker 3: crucial because, as far as I was concerned, the mask 514 00:26:15,287 --> 00:26:18,527 Speaker 3: is what Kristin loved, not what was behind the mask. 515 00:26:18,687 --> 00:26:20,127 Speaker 3: So I was like, I don't wanted to see what's 516 00:26:20,167 --> 00:26:21,967 Speaker 3: behind the mask. You don't forget that, It's like the 517 00:26:22,007 --> 00:26:23,967 Speaker 3: Phantom of the opera, right, Like, don't take that off. 518 00:26:24,447 --> 00:26:26,487 Speaker 3: Then when we were married, we were living together, there 519 00:26:26,647 --> 00:26:30,047 Speaker 3: was no opportunity to take off the mask without really 520 00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:33,007 Speaker 3: revealing what a troll I could be when you just 521 00:26:33,087 --> 00:26:37,207 Speaker 3: leave me to be one. Right, So in my view, right, 522 00:26:37,287 --> 00:26:40,407 Speaker 3: so the insisting on you know, it's Hamburger Tuesday. Why 523 00:26:40,447 --> 00:26:42,687 Speaker 3: are we trying to now make a taco Tuesday. We've 524 00:26:42,687 --> 00:26:44,967 Speaker 3: always done Hamburgers. Let's keep it with Hambergers, right, So 525 00:26:45,007 --> 00:26:51,287 Speaker 3: that that sort of inflexibility, persistent and intense preoccupations with random, 526 00:26:51,327 --> 00:26:55,447 Speaker 3: weird things. Those were the challenges in being married was 527 00:26:55,567 --> 00:26:58,647 Speaker 3: how do I adequately continue to show up for Kristin 528 00:26:59,447 --> 00:27:04,127 Speaker 3: when I have built this completely unsustainable masking initiative or 529 00:27:04,167 --> 00:27:08,647 Speaker 3: this and finding now that that is not sustainable. And 530 00:27:09,087 --> 00:27:11,087 Speaker 3: it's not like I was trying to trick Christen into 531 00:27:11,167 --> 00:27:13,367 Speaker 3: thinking I was some great version of myself. It was 532 00:27:13,447 --> 00:27:17,047 Speaker 3: more just that's what you do when the stakes are high. Right. 533 00:27:17,207 --> 00:27:21,127 Speaker 3: So that was marriage, And in a marriage there needs 534 00:27:21,167 --> 00:27:24,007 Speaker 3: to be or in any relationship you know, marriage is 535 00:27:24,047 --> 00:27:26,047 Speaker 3: just a piece of paper in some ways, but in 536 00:27:26,127 --> 00:27:31,647 Speaker 3: any worthy close relationship, I think the responsibility for both 537 00:27:31,687 --> 00:27:36,007 Speaker 3: people in that relationship is to love the other person 538 00:27:36,647 --> 00:27:39,767 Speaker 3: so freely that they're free to be themselves at whatever 539 00:27:39,807 --> 00:27:43,407 Speaker 3: stage in life they're in, whatever they're into, and to 540 00:27:43,487 --> 00:27:48,727 Speaker 3: celebrate that and to share moments together. In my case, 541 00:27:49,087 --> 00:27:53,527 Speaker 3: my only goal after the end of a workday was 542 00:27:53,687 --> 00:27:58,567 Speaker 3: preservation of sameness. And it was like Kristen didn't want 543 00:27:58,567 --> 00:28:03,407 Speaker 3: to be married to an agenda around preservation of sameness. 544 00:28:03,447 --> 00:28:05,487 Speaker 3: She wanted to be married to somebody who could go 545 00:28:05,527 --> 00:28:08,647 Speaker 3: and do fun things out in the world without completely 546 00:28:09,407 --> 00:28:13,447 Speaker 3: boiling over and having little man tantrums and pouting and 547 00:28:13,727 --> 00:28:15,567 Speaker 3: all the things that I would do stomp around and 548 00:28:15,607 --> 00:28:18,607 Speaker 3: act mad for three days because my favorite TV show 549 00:28:18,647 --> 00:28:19,567 Speaker 3: was canceled or something. 550 00:28:19,807 --> 00:28:22,727 Speaker 1: And also withdrawing. You know you wrote in this essay 551 00:28:22,727 --> 00:28:25,767 Speaker 1: for The New York Times it wasn't working any of it. 552 00:28:25,847 --> 00:28:28,007 Speaker 1: Our third year of marriage threatened to be our last. 553 00:28:28,047 --> 00:28:33,207 Speaker 1: I'd become cynical and withdrawn, obsessive and preoccupied, dismissive and unhelpful. 554 00:28:33,527 --> 00:28:36,367 Speaker 1: Ashamed by my seeming insanity, I withdrew until our life 555 00:28:36,407 --> 00:28:39,727 Speaker 1: together became long car rides without conversations and laughter, silent 556 00:28:39,767 --> 00:28:42,727 Speaker 1: evenings watching TV in the same room but feeling worlds apart, 557 00:28:43,327 --> 00:28:47,567 Speaker 1: months without any real connection. The circle breaker didn't come 558 00:28:47,567 --> 00:28:51,327 Speaker 1: for another couple of years. Really, When one night Kristin 559 00:28:51,367 --> 00:28:53,367 Speaker 1: asked you to come to her office after the kids 560 00:28:53,407 --> 00:28:56,567 Speaker 1: were asleep, sounds like you're being someone to the principal's office. 561 00:28:56,567 --> 00:28:59,807 Speaker 1: She wanted you to take an online test for Aspergers, 562 00:28:59,847 --> 00:29:03,687 Speaker 1: but first she let you complete your eight thirty PM routine. 563 00:29:03,767 --> 00:29:05,007 Speaker 1: What was that routine? 564 00:29:05,327 --> 00:29:07,807 Speaker 3: At that time? The layout of our house was such 565 00:29:07,927 --> 00:29:10,927 Speaker 3: that after the kids would be in bed. There were 566 00:29:10,927 --> 00:29:14,247 Speaker 3: both like just single digits agely, like three and five 567 00:29:14,327 --> 00:29:17,367 Speaker 3: or something. They were both very young. I would basically 568 00:29:17,447 --> 00:29:21,647 Speaker 3: start in the kitchen and I would walk counterclockwise around 569 00:29:22,167 --> 00:29:24,407 Speaker 3: the first floor of our house, and I would just 570 00:29:24,447 --> 00:29:27,767 Speaker 3: go from room to room in a sequence and observe 571 00:29:28,447 --> 00:29:30,847 Speaker 3: which lights were on. The lights that were on, I 572 00:29:30,847 --> 00:29:33,487 Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily shut them off. I would just want to 573 00:29:33,487 --> 00:29:35,607 Speaker 3: know which ones are on, and sometimes I would kind 574 00:29:35,607 --> 00:29:37,687 Speaker 3: of like stare into it, have a moment with a 575 00:29:37,727 --> 00:29:39,847 Speaker 3: light bulb. Then I would stop at the front door, 576 00:29:39,847 --> 00:29:41,447 Speaker 3: where we had two windows, and I would look out 577 00:29:41,447 --> 00:29:44,927 Speaker 3: the window, and notice like how I had to stand 578 00:29:45,087 --> 00:29:48,367 Speaker 3: so that the neighbor's rooftops would come into perfect parallel 579 00:29:48,447 --> 00:29:51,207 Speaker 3: alignment with each other. And you know, if you cock 580 00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:53,767 Speaker 3: your head a certain way, it kind of creates an angle. 581 00:29:53,847 --> 00:29:55,847 Speaker 3: So just getting that right, and when I could do 582 00:29:55,927 --> 00:29:59,287 Speaker 3: it so that the rooftops all lined up perfectly, it 583 00:29:59,327 --> 00:30:04,167 Speaker 3: would be this amazing relaxation, you know moment. It would 584 00:30:04,167 --> 00:30:06,007 Speaker 3: be like similar to when I was a kid pushing 585 00:30:06,007 --> 00:30:08,207 Speaker 3: myself along the floor with my head on the carpet. 586 00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,287 Speaker 3: For some reason, my shoulders would relax. It would feel amazing. 587 00:30:11,407 --> 00:30:14,607 Speaker 3: So then once I did that, I continue around, continue 588 00:30:14,607 --> 00:30:16,647 Speaker 3: my loop. Just see what's on the TV. If it's 589 00:30:16,647 --> 00:30:19,167 Speaker 3: something loud and obnoxious, turn it off. If it's something good, 590 00:30:19,287 --> 00:30:23,367 Speaker 3: keep it on. It was a way to essentially reset 591 00:30:23,447 --> 00:30:26,247 Speaker 3: for my evening, which was to get the lay of 592 00:30:26,247 --> 00:30:28,207 Speaker 3: the land, what's going on in the house. Are there 593 00:30:28,207 --> 00:30:32,847 Speaker 3: any variables or factors that I want to address, Like 594 00:30:33,207 --> 00:30:35,567 Speaker 3: do I not feel like having a bright evening? Which 595 00:30:35,647 --> 00:30:37,887 Speaker 3: lights would I turn off? Right? So it was like 596 00:30:37,927 --> 00:30:41,967 Speaker 3: this very deliberate, but very essential to what we would 597 00:30:42,007 --> 00:30:45,807 Speaker 3: call now my emotional regulation. It was very essential to 598 00:30:45,847 --> 00:30:48,327 Speaker 3: that to getting me regulated for the rest of my night, 599 00:30:48,407 --> 00:30:50,647 Speaker 3: because the rest of my night was now I have 600 00:30:50,807 --> 00:30:53,607 Speaker 3: to really show up and try to be a good 601 00:30:53,647 --> 00:30:56,327 Speaker 3: partner to Kristen. I needed that time and she knew that. 602 00:30:56,767 --> 00:30:59,767 Speaker 1: So you did the test, you iced the test. If 603 00:30:59,807 --> 00:31:02,807 Speaker 1: the objective of the test was to be diagnosed with aspect, 604 00:31:04,367 --> 00:31:06,807 Speaker 1: how did you feel once you had a word for 605 00:31:06,887 --> 00:31:08,887 Speaker 1: the quirkiness that was Dave? 606 00:31:09,487 --> 00:31:11,407 Speaker 3: It was so interesting. I didn't know that we were 607 00:31:11,447 --> 00:31:14,247 Speaker 3: doing an asperger sest. She did, obviously, but I thought 608 00:31:14,247 --> 00:31:17,407 Speaker 3: it was some kind of magazine quiz, like a Cosmo quiz. 609 00:31:17,447 --> 00:31:19,447 Speaker 3: You know, what kind of celebrity pet would you be? 610 00:31:19,527 --> 00:31:22,567 Speaker 3: Answered these ten questions. I just thought it was this, 611 00:31:22,647 --> 00:31:24,607 Speaker 3: but then it ended up being one hundred and fifty 612 00:31:24,607 --> 00:31:27,927 Speaker 3: five questions or something crazy. But I scored so high 613 00:31:27,967 --> 00:31:30,807 Speaker 3: on this thing for Asperger's. It was like, first of all, 614 00:31:30,807 --> 00:31:34,207 Speaker 3: it was an online test, something called like Asperger Quiz 615 00:31:34,287 --> 00:31:36,367 Speaker 3: or aspe quiz or something, and it was all these 616 00:31:37,367 --> 00:31:43,047 Speaker 3: qualifying questions and it was by no means a genuine 617 00:31:43,247 --> 00:31:47,727 Speaker 3: or reliable diagnostic tool that diagnosticians would use. It was 618 00:31:47,727 --> 00:31:50,167 Speaker 3: more like directionally accurate a weather vein. 619 00:31:50,527 --> 00:31:53,047 Speaker 1: Maybe get this checked out by a professional. 620 00:31:52,647 --> 00:31:54,927 Speaker 3: Totally like you might want to go see somebody for. 621 00:31:54,887 --> 00:31:57,287 Speaker 1: This, and you got the yeah, maybe head straight to 622 00:31:57,567 --> 00:32:01,007 Speaker 1: a professional as soon as the sun comes up, maybe 623 00:32:01,247 --> 00:32:04,727 Speaker 1: rush drive now, can't you call? It's right? 624 00:32:04,767 --> 00:32:07,207 Speaker 3: When we clicked to calculate my score, just the emergency 625 00:32:07,207 --> 00:32:11,007 Speaker 3: bells started ringing and psychologists were repelling down the side 626 00:32:11,007 --> 00:32:12,807 Speaker 3: of my house in swat here. 627 00:32:16,567 --> 00:32:19,327 Speaker 1: Did it feel good to have a word for it? 628 00:32:19,327 --> 00:32:23,487 Speaker 3: It felt amazing, And the reason why is it can 629 00:32:23,527 --> 00:32:27,007 Speaker 3: be a very different experience for everybody, and nobody's reaction 630 00:32:27,247 --> 00:32:31,487 Speaker 3: to getting an autism spectrum diagnosis is the wrong reaction. 631 00:32:31,607 --> 00:32:33,967 Speaker 3: It's always going to be the right reaction for them. 632 00:32:34,487 --> 00:32:37,527 Speaker 3: For me, it felt like this big moment of relief. 633 00:32:37,567 --> 00:32:40,887 Speaker 3: It actually felt like I was witnessing myself at a 634 00:32:40,887 --> 00:32:44,727 Speaker 3: point of rebirth, or witnessing my own birth. It was, Oh, 635 00:32:44,887 --> 00:32:48,527 Speaker 3: that's who I am. All of these questions, which were 636 00:32:48,567 --> 00:32:51,647 Speaker 3: things like do you find it vitally important to remain 637 00:32:52,447 --> 00:32:56,327 Speaker 3: uninterrupted or undisturbed when you're focusing on interests that you're 638 00:32:56,367 --> 00:33:00,007 Speaker 3: absorbed in? Do you require lengthy periods of time to recharge? 639 00:33:00,087 --> 00:33:02,327 Speaker 3: Do you do better in social situations when you can 640 00:33:02,367 --> 00:33:05,807 Speaker 3: script your responses to potential questions well in advance and 641 00:33:05,927 --> 00:33:09,487 Speaker 3: rehearse them all these things that I did that I 642 00:33:09,607 --> 00:33:13,967 Speaker 3: knew none of my immediate friend group or my peers 643 00:33:14,407 --> 00:33:18,207 Speaker 3: were really doing. And so when you're going through life 644 00:33:18,967 --> 00:33:22,687 Speaker 3: in a way that is markedly different from the folks 645 00:33:22,727 --> 00:33:25,727 Speaker 3: around you and sort of your cohort growing up, you 646 00:33:25,807 --> 00:33:28,847 Speaker 3: start to feel like a broken toy or what somebody 647 00:33:28,887 --> 00:33:31,447 Speaker 3: once described. And I don't know who described it this way, 648 00:33:31,527 --> 00:33:33,487 Speaker 3: and I would give them credit if I could remember. 649 00:33:34,047 --> 00:33:37,487 Speaker 3: They describe it as being a failed version of normal. 650 00:33:38,207 --> 00:33:40,967 Speaker 3: You feel like a failed version of normal. Ooh, yeah, 651 00:33:41,047 --> 00:33:42,647 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And then somebody hands you 652 00:33:42,727 --> 00:33:47,327 Speaker 3: this moment where they essentially give you the user manual 653 00:33:47,367 --> 00:33:50,087 Speaker 3: to your brain and they say, you're not a failed 654 00:33:50,167 --> 00:33:52,927 Speaker 3: version of normal. You're a very successful version of Dave. 655 00:33:53,607 --> 00:33:57,727 Speaker 3: You are exactly what you're supposed to be. And this is, 656 00:33:57,927 --> 00:34:01,407 Speaker 3: by the way, how your brain works, and it's not 657 00:34:01,407 --> 00:34:04,167 Speaker 3: supposed to be the same as everybody else's. For me, 658 00:34:04,407 --> 00:34:08,407 Speaker 3: the moment was electric. For Kristen, it was the same 659 00:34:08,447 --> 00:34:12,327 Speaker 3: exact way. Just remember her eyes were dancing like champagne 660 00:34:12,327 --> 00:34:16,807 Speaker 3: with a with a megawatt flashlight shining into the glasses. 661 00:34:17,327 --> 00:34:22,047 Speaker 3: She was so amped up about like, dude, this describes you. Like, 662 00:34:22,167 --> 00:34:26,287 Speaker 3: isn't this amazing? So she as somebody who just adored, loved, 663 00:34:26,327 --> 00:34:29,487 Speaker 3: and was a big fangirl of the autistic brain, she 664 00:34:29,727 --> 00:34:32,007 Speaker 3: was electrified. She was like, this is amazing. So we 665 00:34:32,127 --> 00:34:36,287 Speaker 3: both took this as fantastic news. What I then ended 666 00:34:36,367 --> 00:34:38,287 Speaker 3: up doing, you know, she kissed me on the forehead, 667 00:34:38,927 --> 00:34:42,607 Speaker 3: and she went upstairs and she said, this explains so much. 668 00:34:43,087 --> 00:34:45,047 Speaker 3: You know, all the stuff in our marriage that has 669 00:34:45,087 --> 00:34:48,767 Speaker 3: been challenging and making me want to kick you in 670 00:34:48,807 --> 00:34:51,607 Speaker 3: the teeth multiple times a day, all the things that 671 00:34:51,687 --> 00:34:54,767 Speaker 3: are causing such challenge. She's like, I know now that 672 00:34:54,807 --> 00:34:58,567 Speaker 3: it's not your fault. You're not wilfully being this pain 673 00:34:58,607 --> 00:35:02,287 Speaker 3: in the butt. This is really important. For some reason, 674 00:35:02,407 --> 00:35:05,807 Speaker 3: that gave her license to see me in a different light, 675 00:35:05,887 --> 00:35:08,927 Speaker 3: to forgive me. She kissed me on the forehead, she said, 676 00:35:08,927 --> 00:35:11,127 Speaker 3: I love. She went upstairs and she slept better than 677 00:35:11,127 --> 00:35:14,207 Speaker 3: she had slept in years. Oh wow, now I just 678 00:35:14,207 --> 00:35:16,007 Speaker 3: found out I had a form of autism. So I 679 00:35:16,087 --> 00:35:18,167 Speaker 3: was like blown away. I couldn't sleep. I was like 680 00:35:18,207 --> 00:35:21,527 Speaker 3: what So I started googling everything that crisis. Probably the 681 00:35:21,567 --> 00:35:24,767 Speaker 3: worst thing anybody can do is start googling autism spectrum 682 00:35:24,807 --> 00:35:28,847 Speaker 3: conditions because there's so much misinformation, gloom and doom. You 683 00:35:28,887 --> 00:35:33,167 Speaker 3: really have to be judicious about what information sources you 684 00:35:33,287 --> 00:35:36,127 Speaker 3: are going to when you're trying to learn about autism 685 00:35:36,207 --> 00:35:37,887 Speaker 3: and related conditions. 686 00:35:37,447 --> 00:35:42,567 Speaker 1: Like googling anything anything about in totally it's interesting what 687 00:35:42,687 --> 00:35:46,567 Speaker 1: you say about the manual, because you then decided to 688 00:35:46,727 --> 00:35:49,847 Speaker 1: write a book called The Journal of Best Practices, a 689 00:35:49,967 --> 00:35:53,687 Speaker 1: memoir of marriage, Asperger syndrome and one man's quest to 690 00:35:53,767 --> 00:35:57,047 Speaker 1: be a better husband. What was the book about and 691 00:35:57,207 --> 00:35:57,567 Speaker 1: what was. 692 00:35:57,567 --> 00:36:01,887 Speaker 3: In it the book? Interestingly enough, you can take autism 693 00:36:01,927 --> 00:36:04,447 Speaker 3: Aspergers right out of it because in the end the 694 00:36:04,487 --> 00:36:06,687 Speaker 3: book ended up selling very well because in the end 695 00:36:06,767 --> 00:36:09,447 Speaker 3: people recognized in it that Christin and I are just 696 00:36:09,487 --> 00:36:13,127 Speaker 3: a couple. We're working our way through our stuff. But 697 00:36:13,207 --> 00:36:15,327 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it's couple stuff. It's 698 00:36:15,367 --> 00:36:18,247 Speaker 3: stuff that everybody deals with, just we might be dealing 699 00:36:18,327 --> 00:36:21,847 Speaker 3: with some things to a comically high degree. That book 700 00:36:22,087 --> 00:36:25,927 Speaker 3: was really truly the story behind all of the maxims 701 00:36:25,967 --> 00:36:28,367 Speaker 3: that I started to write down, these little personal rules 702 00:36:28,407 --> 00:36:31,047 Speaker 3: for myself about how to be a better husband, how 703 00:36:31,127 --> 00:36:34,207 Speaker 3: to be a more successful version of normal. We'll say 704 00:36:34,727 --> 00:36:38,767 Speaker 3: a more traditional looking kind of guy. And anytime Christen 705 00:36:38,767 --> 00:36:42,127 Speaker 3: and I would get into an argument, a debate, anytime 706 00:36:42,167 --> 00:36:45,007 Speaker 3: I realized I had screwed something up and I could 707 00:36:45,047 --> 00:36:47,207 Speaker 3: take a lesson away from that, I would then write 708 00:36:47,287 --> 00:36:51,247 Speaker 3: down the lesson learned, like don't take just what you 709 00:36:51,407 --> 00:36:54,047 Speaker 3: need from the dryer, take all the clothes out and 710 00:36:54,127 --> 00:36:56,247 Speaker 3: fold them. Don't just pick through and find the right 711 00:36:56,327 --> 00:37:00,887 Speaker 3: socks right, don't sneak up on her and scare her, 712 00:37:02,727 --> 00:37:04,927 Speaker 3: like don't change the radio station when she's singing along. 713 00:37:05,047 --> 00:37:07,727 Speaker 3: Just stuff like that. But then that's like how to 714 00:37:07,847 --> 00:37:10,527 Speaker 3: not be part of my expressions, how to not be 715 00:37:10,607 --> 00:37:11,127 Speaker 3: an asshole? 716 00:37:11,367 --> 00:37:14,687 Speaker 1: An asshole? Yeah, but you weren't being deliberately an asshole. 717 00:37:14,807 --> 00:37:18,767 Speaker 1: You just literally had to learn these things. I want 718 00:37:18,807 --> 00:37:20,647 Speaker 1: to know more. Tell me more of those rules that 719 00:37:20,727 --> 00:37:24,087 Speaker 1: would seem so obvious but clearly helped many many men. 720 00:37:24,167 --> 00:37:25,407 Speaker 1: When you write them down, it. 721 00:37:25,447 --> 00:37:28,007 Speaker 3: Did end up being nice breadcrumbs for other men to follow, 722 00:37:28,047 --> 00:37:30,727 Speaker 3: I will admit, and other partners. But some of the 723 00:37:30,767 --> 00:37:34,127 Speaker 3: other ones were a little more we'll say, less playful. 724 00:37:34,167 --> 00:37:36,287 Speaker 3: So the more playful ones were like don't change the 725 00:37:36,367 --> 00:37:38,767 Speaker 3: radio station when she's singing along. But there are other 726 00:37:38,887 --> 00:37:42,527 Speaker 3: really important ones like apologies don't count when you shout them, 727 00:37:42,727 --> 00:37:47,447 Speaker 3: for instance, or listen with an empathic mind, so I 728 00:37:47,567 --> 00:37:51,127 Speaker 3: had to actually practice empathy. I remember one of them, 729 00:37:51,447 --> 00:37:54,207 Speaker 3: probably the one that stands out so clearly in my 730 00:37:54,327 --> 00:37:58,287 Speaker 3: mind the most, for whatever reason, as initiative. And the 731 00:37:58,367 --> 00:38:02,407 Speaker 3: best practice was take initiative. But don't ask Kristen for 732 00:38:02,527 --> 00:38:05,247 Speaker 3: a high five after you've taken initiative, right, So I 733 00:38:05,367 --> 00:38:07,647 Speaker 3: had to tape that one to my mirror. So in 734 00:38:07,767 --> 00:38:11,087 Speaker 3: our marriage and the kids were real little, I thought 735 00:38:11,207 --> 00:38:15,327 Speaker 3: my role as husband, the paradigm was I work, make 736 00:38:15,407 --> 00:38:17,927 Speaker 3: the money, and then I come home from work. The 737 00:38:18,007 --> 00:38:20,047 Speaker 3: rest of the day should be about me recovering from 738 00:38:20,047 --> 00:38:22,247 Speaker 3: a workday and not having to do too much. Right, 739 00:38:22,687 --> 00:38:25,167 Speaker 3: I'm not alone in that. Everybody wants that. Of course, 740 00:38:25,727 --> 00:38:27,447 Speaker 3: it's the dream, and it's the selfish dream. 741 00:38:27,527 --> 00:38:27,687 Speaker 1: Right. 742 00:38:28,207 --> 00:38:33,127 Speaker 3: So Kristin I perceived her role as being anything related 743 00:38:33,167 --> 00:38:38,007 Speaker 3: to the kids or general household upkeep. Kristin is like 744 00:38:38,047 --> 00:38:40,287 Speaker 3: the first lines of defense on that, and if she 745 00:38:40,447 --> 00:38:42,167 Speaker 3: needs help with any of it, she can pull me 746 00:38:42,327 --> 00:38:44,767 Speaker 3: in and tell me specifically what she needs me to do, 747 00:38:44,927 --> 00:38:46,567 Speaker 3: and I'll decide if I have time to do that, right, 748 00:38:46,687 --> 00:38:48,647 Speaker 3: Like that's how selfish and horrible I was at the time. 749 00:38:49,007 --> 00:38:50,607 Speaker 3: I'm not like that anymore. I just want to say, 750 00:38:51,127 --> 00:38:53,807 Speaker 3: but that was such a huge blind spot on my 751 00:38:54,007 --> 00:38:57,447 Speaker 3: part that when I told Kristin, hey, listen, thank you 752 00:38:57,527 --> 00:38:59,687 Speaker 3: for bringing to my attention that I'm on the spectrum. 753 00:38:59,727 --> 00:39:02,647 Speaker 3: This is really helpful. I noticed that our marriage sucks. 754 00:39:03,207 --> 00:39:04,967 Speaker 3: I can't help but think that to a certain extent, 755 00:39:05,087 --> 00:39:06,567 Speaker 3: I kind of suck. So I want to learn how 756 00:39:06,607 --> 00:39:08,367 Speaker 3: to not suck anymore. I want to do the things 757 00:39:08,407 --> 00:39:10,367 Speaker 3: that would make me a better husband, a better partner. 758 00:39:11,327 --> 00:39:15,007 Speaker 3: First of all, to her credit, she never said, oh good, 759 00:39:15,047 --> 00:39:16,927 Speaker 3: I can capitalize in this, and I can sort of 760 00:39:17,687 --> 00:39:20,847 Speaker 3: custom make my own custom version. 761 00:39:20,607 --> 00:39:22,727 Speaker 1: Of a man that I want to have build her 762 00:39:22,767 --> 00:39:23,287 Speaker 1: and husband. 763 00:39:23,407 --> 00:39:27,927 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, build her. She looked at it and said, Dave, 764 00:39:28,167 --> 00:39:30,847 Speaker 3: I appreciate what you're getting at here, but you need 765 00:39:30,927 --> 00:39:35,047 Speaker 3: to understand you're not broken. Our marriage is broken. You 766 00:39:35,127 --> 00:39:38,927 Speaker 3: don't need to be fixed or repaired or change our marriage. 767 00:39:38,927 --> 00:39:42,727 Speaker 3: Our relationship fundamentally has broken down and needs to be repaired. 768 00:39:43,127 --> 00:39:45,127 Speaker 3: We can do that together. We're not going to be 769 00:39:45,287 --> 00:39:48,527 Speaker 3: fixing you or making you something you're not, but we 770 00:39:48,687 --> 00:39:51,487 Speaker 3: have information now that we can build a context around 771 00:39:51,607 --> 00:39:53,327 Speaker 3: the reality of who you are. And I was like, oh, 772 00:39:53,407 --> 00:39:55,567 Speaker 3: that makes a lot more sense, right. So, but with 773 00:39:55,727 --> 00:39:58,127 Speaker 3: this initiative thing, one of the very first things early 774 00:39:58,207 --> 00:40:01,807 Speaker 3: on that she said was it is exhausting trying to 775 00:40:01,927 --> 00:40:04,007 Speaker 3: stay a few steps ahead of you so that you 776 00:40:04,127 --> 00:40:08,527 Speaker 3: don't have some emotional downward spiral and lose your mind. 777 00:40:08,647 --> 00:40:11,327 Speaker 3: Because we didn't have the right kind of sandwiches for 778 00:40:12,287 --> 00:40:14,687 Speaker 3: you know, the guests or whatever. That's exhausting, But it's 779 00:40:14,727 --> 00:40:18,167 Speaker 3: also there is so much going on just keeping the 780 00:40:18,207 --> 00:40:22,087 Speaker 3: house going, keeping the kids fed, clean clothes, whatever, that 781 00:40:22,807 --> 00:40:25,607 Speaker 3: She's like, I feel like you're just kind of standing 782 00:40:25,647 --> 00:40:27,767 Speaker 3: on the sidelines watching me do it. And I was like, well, yeah, 783 00:40:27,807 --> 00:40:29,967 Speaker 3: that's that's what I feel like my role should be 784 00:40:30,047 --> 00:40:31,647 Speaker 3: right now. I don't want to get in your way, 785 00:40:31,727 --> 00:40:33,647 Speaker 3: and she immediately called b s on me. She's like, 786 00:40:33,727 --> 00:40:35,247 Speaker 3: you don't care about getting in my way. You just 787 00:40:35,247 --> 00:40:36,927 Speaker 3: don't want to get your hands dirty doing all this 788 00:40:37,047 --> 00:40:40,607 Speaker 3: other shit. She was absolutely right, which. 789 00:40:40,487 --> 00:40:43,207 Speaker 1: Sounds like the stuff just of marriages, right, Like, that's 790 00:40:43,447 --> 00:40:46,327 Speaker 1: an argument that my husband and I have in different 791 00:40:46,527 --> 00:40:49,047 Speaker 1: ways all the time, and I think is just typical 792 00:40:49,127 --> 00:40:52,127 Speaker 1: of most couples because it seems on paper you were 793 00:40:52,167 --> 00:40:55,087 Speaker 1: working so hard, so diligently, you were making it such 794 00:40:55,167 --> 00:40:58,247 Speaker 1: a project, your life's work. Almost literally, you wrote a 795 00:40:58,287 --> 00:41:01,847 Speaker 1: best selling book on how to be a better husband. 796 00:41:03,007 --> 00:41:05,087 Speaker 1: So tell me about the day you were in the 797 00:41:05,167 --> 00:41:07,807 Speaker 1: bathroom and she came to you and said, I want 798 00:41:07,847 --> 00:41:08,727 Speaker 1: to get unmarried? 799 00:41:09,287 --> 00:41:12,127 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, yeah, now. 800 00:41:12,047 --> 00:41:15,087 Speaker 1: If you like me any thinking? Wait, hasn't David been 801 00:41:15,167 --> 00:41:17,967 Speaker 1: kind of killing it as a husband. Not a lot 802 00:41:18,007 --> 00:41:20,327 Speaker 1: of men are willing to do so much work on 803 00:41:20,447 --> 00:41:25,127 Speaker 1: themselves and with their partner. I mean, he literally wrote 804 00:41:25,127 --> 00:41:27,927 Speaker 1: a book about how to be a bad husband. So 805 00:41:28,047 --> 00:41:31,447 Speaker 1: why did his wife want to unmarry him? It seems unreasonable? 806 00:41:32,007 --> 00:41:36,287 Speaker 1: And what does getting unmarried even mean? And obviously you 807 00:41:36,407 --> 00:41:38,287 Speaker 1: know I'm going to ask him about sex because this 808 00:41:38,407 --> 00:41:43,447 Speaker 1: is no filter, after all, and I have none. Spoiler alert. Unmarried, 809 00:41:43,647 --> 00:41:48,247 Speaker 1: the way David describes it is incredibly appealing. There's a 810 00:41:48,287 --> 00:41:50,687 Speaker 1: link in our show notes. Don't miss it. See you 811 00:41:50,767 --> 00:41:54,407 Speaker 1: in part two? Did you love that? I loved that conversation. 812 00:41:54,847 --> 00:41:58,447 Speaker 1: He was a hoot. He was so funny. And I 813 00:41:58,527 --> 00:42:00,847 Speaker 1: hope he writes a book called Unmarried, because I thought 814 00:42:01,567 --> 00:42:05,167 Speaker 1: the way he spoke about it was just fascinating. If 815 00:42:05,167 --> 00:42:08,447 Speaker 1: you're looking for more interesting conversations over the summer break, 816 00:42:08,847 --> 00:42:11,127 Speaker 1: once you finished listening to Muma May Are Out Loud, 817 00:42:11,167 --> 00:42:13,487 Speaker 1: of course, jump over to No Filter because we have 818 00:42:13,607 --> 00:42:17,887 Speaker 1: a whole other program of Hot Pod Summer over there. 819 00:42:18,087 --> 00:42:21,167 Speaker 1: I'm definitely not biased, but I'm also very sure that 820 00:42:21,207 --> 00:42:23,327 Speaker 1: you won't regret it. We'll pop a link in the 821 00:42:23,367 --> 00:42:26,607 Speaker 1: show notes. But wait, there's more. We've plenty of Muma 822 00:42:26,647 --> 00:42:29,007 Speaker 1: me are out Loud coming up as well, so make 823 00:42:29,087 --> 00:42:32,167 Speaker 1: sure that you are actually following us in your favorite 824 00:42:32,207 --> 00:42:34,807 Speaker 1: podcast app. Go on, do it now so that you 825 00:42:34,967 --> 00:42:36,167 Speaker 1: never miss an episode.