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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quikie. The size of women's breasts has been a

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Speaker 1: topic of discussion for millennia, from ancient Greek statues to

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Speaker 1: Instagram's nipple band. Their size, shape enhancements, and uplifters have

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Speaker 1: been debated as to which is the good set of

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Speaker 1: boobs and which is a bad set of boobs. But

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Speaker 1: a new trend, outlined in a recent New York Times article,

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Speaker 1: suggests that women are taking back control of the breast

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Speaker 1: narrative by downsizing. Before we speak to a plastic surgeon

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Speaker 1: about whether ossie women are doing the same, Let's check

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Speaker 1: in with Grace Rubrain the Quickie newsroom for the latest.

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Speaker 1: On Monday September thirty.

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Speaker 3: Israel has bombed Hoofy targets in Yemen in response to

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Speaker 3: missale attacks by the Iran aligned rebels, marking a new

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Speaker 3: front in Middle East fighting and the second strike on

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Speaker 3: Yemen this year. The Israeli strikes killed at least four

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Speaker 3: people and wounded twenty nine. In July, Israeli warplanes struck

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Speaker 3: Houthy military targets after a yemen drone hit Tel Aviv

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Speaker 3: and killed one man. The Israeli military said over the

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Speaker 3: past year, the hoofies have been operating under the direction

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Speaker 3: and funding of Iran in order to attack the State

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Speaker 3: of Israel, undermine regional stability, and disrupt global freedom of navigation.

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Speaker 3: Yemen's Houthy militants have repeatedly fired missiles and drones at

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Speaker 3: Israel and what they say is solidarity with Palestinians. In

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Speaker 3: a post on ex a spokesman from the hooth he

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Speaker 3: said Sunday's Israeli strikes could not cause the group to

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Speaker 3: abandon Gaza and labandon. Labour will hand down a fifteen

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Speaker 3: point eight billion dollar surplus in a significantly better result

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Speaker 3: the federal government attributes to lower spending in a weaker economy.

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Speaker 3: Treasurer Jim Charmers on Monday will release the final budget

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Speaker 3: outcome showing a surplus for the twenty twenty three to

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four financial year, the second in a row.

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Speaker 3: The surplus zero point six percent of the nation's economic output,

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Speaker 3: is six point four billion dollars, higher than the original

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Speaker 3: nine point three billion dollars forecast in the May budget.

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Speaker 3: Despite lower tax revenue and weak economic growth, the government

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Speaker 3: returned eighty seven percent of revenue upgrades to the budget

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Speaker 3: with economic conditions at their weakest since the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 3: recession excluding COVID labour hopes the Reserve Bank will cut

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Speaker 3: rates before the federal election due by May patients of

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Speaker 3: forking out more money to see the GP despite incentive

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Speaker 3: payments for bulk billing being tripled. The Royal Australian College

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Speaker 3: of GP's Health of the Nation survey found one in

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Speaker 3: four doctors are bulk billing more consults after the Albaneze

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Speaker 3: government increased funding, but the report card reveals patients out

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Speaker 3: of pocket costs rose to thirty six dollars and eighty

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Speaker 3: six cents on average for twenty minute consultation in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four, which is up from thirty four dollars to

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Speaker 3: ninety one cents in twenty twenty three, as inflation hits

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Speaker 3: the health sector. The findings have prompted the body representing

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Speaker 3: GPS to earn labor to rebuild Medicare after decades of underfunding.

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Speaker 3: The bulk billing incentive, paid on top of the standard

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Speaker 3: Medicare benefit, has helped pensioners, children and concession cardholders. Australian

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Speaker 3: actor Rebel Wilson has married her partner Ramona A Gruma,

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Speaker 3: in Italy on Saturday. It had been reported in early

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Speaker 3: September that although the couple, who appearance to two year

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Speaker 3: old daughter Royce, had planned to marry in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: they pushed their plans forward and were looking forward to

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Speaker 3: a very elegant ceremony in Europe. The forty four year

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Speaker 3: old actor went public with her romance with Ramona in

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Speaker 3: June twenty twenty two, saying I thought I was searching

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Speaker 3: for a Disney Prince, but maybe what I really needed

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Speaker 3: all this time was a Disney princess.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Grace. That's what's going on in the world today.

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Speaker 1: Next are smaller boobs awayne which women are controlling their power,

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Speaker 1: or just another trend telling women what's good and what's

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Speaker 1: bad about boobs. If you're in a mum's group on Facebook,

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Speaker 1: you might have seen messages like these ones.

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Speaker 4: I'm looking at having a breast reduction and lift now

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Speaker 4: I've finished having kids. So for those of you who

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Speaker 4: have had one. What was recovery actually?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 4: Like, how long did you need some extra help with

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Speaker 4: your kids? Because I will have a one year old

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Speaker 4: and a four year old. Has anyone had a breast

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Speaker 4: reduction and how did you go about it?

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Speaker 5: I recently got quoted twelve thousand dollars, but I don't

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Speaker 5: know if this is reasonable. How much did it cost you?

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Speaker 5: I've just recently signed up to private health insurance to

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Speaker 5: get a breast reduction and left next year. I'm currently

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Speaker 5: a twelve double age and have been the size since

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Speaker 5: I was in my teens. What should I expect or

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Speaker 5: do to prepare myself?

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Speaker 1: It seems like more women are seeking the procedure to

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Speaker 1: fix their lifelong struggle with bigger boobs, and a New

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Speaker 1: York Times article recently claimed that women in the US

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Speaker 1: are walking into doctors' offices with pictures of small breasted

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Speaker 1: celebs like Miley Cyrus or Bella had Did, asking to

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Speaker 1: be surgically made to look more like them. Others just

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Speaker 1: wanted to fit into cue DeBras, with those made for

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Speaker 1: the bigger breasted lady, often coming in glorious shades of

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Speaker 1: beige and sometimes looking more like something a hospital patient

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Speaker 1: would be asked to wear than anything close to pretty.

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Speaker 1: There are TikTok accounts committed to documenting breast reduction surgery,

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Speaker 1: even posting pictures with nipples obscured. Of course, of the

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Speaker 1: post op scars, bruising and swelling, but many describe the

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Speaker 1: feeling of relief or even joy after their recovery. The

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Speaker 1: trend is starting to see a shift from breast augmentation,

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Speaker 1: which still remains by far the most popular plastic surgery

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Speaker 1: in Australia, to those asking for breast reductions. According to

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Speaker 1: the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons, in the twelve months

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Speaker 1: leading up to mid twenty twenty three, there were ten

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Speaker 1: thousand breast reduction surgeries across the country, with that number

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Speaker 1: on the rise. The number of Medicare claims for the

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Speaker 1: procedure has also increased, tripling over the three financial years

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Speaker 1: to twenty twenty three twenty four. The reasons women give

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Speaker 1: are almost exclusively due to quality of life issues, with

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Speaker 1: many suffering back in, neck pain or shoulder issues from

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Speaker 1: having heavy straps digging in for decades. But a plastic

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Speaker 1: surgeon in Salt Lake City who spoke to the New

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Speaker 1: York Times says the difference he's seeing now is that

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Speaker 1: women are asking to go smaller than ever, with the

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Speaker 1: usual reduction to a CA cup now more commonly down

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Speaker 1: to a bee. The stats on how women feel about

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Speaker 1: their breasts is complex. A twenty twenty two breast size

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Speaker 1: Satisfaction survey who spoke to more than eighteen thousand women

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Speaker 1: across forty countries, found seventy percent to runhappy with their

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Speaker 1: breast sites, forty seven point five percent wanted larger boobs,

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Speaker 1: while twenty three point two percent want them to be smaller. Interestingly, though,

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Speaker 1: those who had a lower exposure to Western media were

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Speaker 1: less likely to experience size dissatisfaction, so it can be

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Speaker 1: a psychological issue as well as a physical one. A

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two survey by University of Canberra researchers found

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Speaker 1: Australian women with l larger breasts are less satisfied with

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Speaker 1: their size, and that there are very real implications. For example,

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Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety eight study by researchers at Loyola University

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Speaker 1: in Chicago found that when a job applicant appeared large breasted,

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Speaker 1: she was more favored for clerical roles, but not managerial positions.

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Speaker 1: And the opposite was found in smaller breasted applicants. So

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Speaker 1: what's a breast reduction surgery like and why are women

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Speaker 1: asking for it more than ever? Professor Anandeva is the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Integrated Specialist Healthcare Education and Research Foundation

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Speaker 1: and Head of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery at Macquarie University.

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Speaker 1: And for so long breast augmentation has been the leading

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Speaker 1: plastic surgery for ozzie women. Are you seeing more start

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Speaker 1: to ask for reductions?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Look, it's very difficult to say. We don't have

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Speaker 2: a handle on the numbers as much as we would

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Speaker 2: say the Americans do, which is unfortunate. But rest didiction's

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Speaker 2: been a popular operation in Australia for many, many years.

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Speaker 2: I think it's one that has gone up or down

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Speaker 2: per se, at least on my view. I don't think

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Speaker 2: it should be seen on power with something like a

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Speaker 2: breast augmentation at all. I think they're two very very

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Speaker 2: different procedures. A breast reduction procedure, I would say, has

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Speaker 2: got an equal, if not more, functional component to it,

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Speaker 2: and by that I mean it's something that is not

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Speaker 2: purely cosmetic, like bring an implant into a breast to

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Speaker 2: make it bigger. And for that reason, I think it's

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Speaker 2: one of my most favorite operations, and I can say

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Speaker 2: without a doubt that they're the happiest patients I've treated

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Speaker 2: in my practice, which spans in the more than two decades.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about something that's quite life changing for

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Speaker 1: someone who's been carrying around large breasts, some of them

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Speaker 1: since they hit puberty in their teenage years, and so

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Speaker 1: that can lead to some pretty chronic conditions. What sort

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Speaker 1: of things have your patients been complaining about in the

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Speaker 1: lead up to breast reduction.

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Speaker 2: Oh, look, I think having a large breast comes with

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Speaker 2: some significant physical issues pressure on your neck, pressure on

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Speaker 2: your back over time that can actually need to quite

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Speaker 2: serious chronic pain. The issue of large breast particularly is

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Speaker 2: society is very socially awkward, particularly in a young teenage girl,

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Speaker 2: unwanted attention. And then there are other issues, particularly with

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Speaker 2: women who have very large breasts, is that these breasts

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Speaker 2: also become sweaty, they can have chronic infection between the

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Speaker 2: breast and the chest wall, and you know there's obviously

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Speaker 2: over time, their weight of gravity, effect of pregnancy and

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Speaker 2: breastfeeding that actually cause the breast to elongate what we

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Speaker 2: call toasis and medical terms, and so they don't become

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Speaker 2: very attractive. So when you talk about the combination of

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Speaker 2: physical symptoms, social embarrassment and unwanted attention, and the issue

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Speaker 2: of hygiene pain, you know, there are not many things

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Speaker 2: I think that are good about having large breast, particularly

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Speaker 2: as you go through life have children.

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Speaker 1: In the article that has been talking about this in

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Speaker 1: particular just recently in the New York Times, there's a

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Speaker 1: suggestion that perhaps breast reduction surgery has now become some

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Speaker 1: thing that's I don't know, we don't want to compare

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Speaker 1: it to breast augmentation, but coming from a similar place

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Speaker 1: in that it is a trend because it is fashionable

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Speaker 1: to have smaller boobs now than it is to maybe

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Speaker 1: have bigger boobs. Would you suggest that people coming to you,

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Speaker 1: in particular, or from your experience, that women are coming

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Speaker 1: to you for a breast reduction more for the look

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Speaker 1: of their boobs or more for the practicality of having

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Speaker 1: a smaller breast.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I think we need to stay very clear

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Speaker 2: of having a breast reduction surgeries because it's in vogue

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Speaker 2: or in fashion. A breast reduction procedure does carry some

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Speaker 2: significant risks which I think we need to be very

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Speaker 2: clear about to patients, particularly young patients. And the biggest

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Speaker 2: thing I think patients have to accept is visible scarring

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Speaker 2: to the breast. So you know, I don't consider it

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Speaker 2: a cosmetic procedure. Yes, there are some cosmetic improvements to

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Speaker 2: the breast in terms of its size, shape and position.

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Speaker 2: But someone who comes and says, oh, look, it's trendy

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Speaker 2: and I'd like to have smaller breasts because you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what fashion or Instagram is telling me, I think

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Speaker 2: could be. I'd be a bit concerned that would be

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Speaker 2: the main motivation. So I would focus on who do

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Speaker 2: have physical symptoms, have issues particularly with chronic infection, sweatiness

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Speaker 2: in the breast under the summer, difficulty with clothing, you know,

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Speaker 2: all those things I think factor into the reasons for

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Speaker 2: proceeding with the surgery, and then the patient has to

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Speaker 2: understand the risk associated with surgery in addition to visible scarring,

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Speaker 2: and the scars are not terrible, but there's certainly visible

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Speaker 2: scarring around the nipple. So these are things that I

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Speaker 2: would say to you should not be pursued in a

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Speaker 2: fashion sense, but more in a functional scent in terms

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Speaker 2: of improvement of their quality of life?

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Speaker 1: Would you be able to step us through a breast

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Speaker 1: reduction surgery? And I know it may differ slightly between

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Speaker 1: patients depending on what their individual circumstances are, but can

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Speaker 1: you kind of step us through how it works?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, look, on average it would take between two

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Speaker 2: to three hours in the operating theater. For the larger reductions,

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Speaker 2: you would need to stay out a night in hospital

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Speaker 2: and possibly go home the next day. Patients are fitted

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Speaker 2: with a support brass support garment, which there were for

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Speaker 2: six weeks day at night. They do shower after twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours and the first week you really are not

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Speaker 2: allowed to drive. You're not allowed to lift anything. I

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Speaker 2: tell people to keep their arms below shovel to heights.

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Speaker 2: Maybe go for an evening walk after a day or

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Speaker 2: two from the surgery. So you know, it's not in

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Speaker 2: itself a big operation, and the recovery itself is not onerous.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of the procedure itself, the technical aspects

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Speaker 2: of it are that what you're trying to do is

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Speaker 2: get rid of excess tissue but preserve the nipple, nerve

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Speaker 2: and blood supply. So there are important aspects to who

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Speaker 2: should be performing the surgery in terms of they're training

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Speaker 2: their credentials, because if you're not properly trained in this,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately, I've been involved in treating some terrible complications

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Speaker 2: such as a loss of nipple or loss of tissue

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Speaker 2: after the surgery. So you know, as I say, it

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be seen as a fad or a fashion. If

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Speaker 2: someone comes to me and as a relatively normal sized

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Speaker 2: breast to the rest of their proportion, but just wants

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Speaker 2: them smaller through a breast reduction operation, I would be

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Speaker 2: very concerned about a their understanding of the procedure and

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Speaker 2: be their motivation.

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Speaker 1: Behind getting it. He said that it's quite complex in

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Speaker 1: the blood supply and maintaining nipple, et cetera. But would

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Speaker 1: having a breast reduction interfere with maybe someone who has

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Speaker 1: another baby in decides to breastfeed.

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Speaker 2: That's a very good point actually, And so look, in general,

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Speaker 2: the way we design the surgery is to preserve the

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Speaker 2: connection of the nipple to the milk ducks that produce

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Speaker 2: milk as relaxation. So this is the effect on breastfeeding

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Speaker 2: that we talk about. But you should be aware that

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Speaker 2: not all women who become pregnant even without a breast

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Speaker 2: reduction are able to breastfeed as well. On average. The

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Speaker 2: number quoted is that roughly seventy percent of women following

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Speaker 2: a breast reduction surgery which preserves the blood and nerve

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Speaker 2: supply and the connection to the nepple ducks, will be

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Speaker 2: able to breastfeed. So breastfeeding is one thing. But the

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Speaker 2: other thing I would say to someone who's thinking of

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Speaker 2: having child or children before surgery is pregnancy and breastfeeding

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Speaker 2: can certainly affect the volume, the shape and the size

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Speaker 2: of the breast. So someone who's thinking of starting a

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Speaker 2: family or having a second child, I would say, maybe

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Speaker 2: worth just waiting till after you've finished reproducing, and certainly

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Speaker 2: wait at least six to twelve months after finishing breastfeeding,

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Speaker 2: and then let's have a look and talk about the surgery.

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Speaker 2: So the timing of breast reduction surgery with pregnancy and

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Speaker 2: child booth is a very important aspect of discussion, which

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Speaker 2: you will go through in detail.

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Speaker 1: Now you've kind of touched on this already, but you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that patients of yours that have had breast reductions

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Speaker 1: are amongst the happiest patients that you experience, even though

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Speaker 1: they do carry some scarring and it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a process to recover from. What's the feedback you

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Speaker 1: get from women in general when they have had a

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Speaker 1: breast reduction.

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Speaker 2: Oh, look, I think that the changes to their quality

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Speaker 2: of life, their ability to exercise, their clothing, just their

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Speaker 2: overall comfort, the relief of naked and back pain. I

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Speaker 2: often I had one patient say, gosh, you know, and

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Speaker 2: I think it was like about akilo reduction on each side.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine two kilos total off breast? So she said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I hadn't realized, but I'd had a rope

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Speaker 2: around my neck with a kilo weight on the either

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Speaker 2: side and hang off that for the last twenty years

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Speaker 2: of my life. And you know, to walk in and

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Speaker 2: not have that is just unbelievable. So, as I say,

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Speaker 2: I love these patients, I love treating them. I love

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Speaker 2: seeing them two or three weeks after surgery when they

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Speaker 2: walk in and they go, oh my god, I should have

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Speaker 2: done this, Maybe why did I wait this long? So

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Speaker 2: the level of satisfaction from the surgery, as I say,

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Speaker 2: particularly from a point of view of relief of these

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Speaker 2: chronic symptoms, is remarkable.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 1: us today, and if you do have a couple of

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Speaker 1: minutes to spare after you've finished listening to this today,

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Speaker 1: can you help a sister out and vote for Muma

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Speaker 1: Mia out Loud in the Australian Podcast Awards in the

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Speaker 1: Listener's Choice category. It's super easy to do well. Chuck

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Speaker 1: the link in our show notes so you can just

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Speaker 1: click right on through. The quickie is produced by me

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Speaker 1: Claire Murphy and our senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio

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Speaker 1: production by Tomline.

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Speaker 5: Seem to Seek the fa