1
00:00:10,287 --> 00:00:13,047
Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,487
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

4
00:00:23,527 --> 00:00:26,247
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about

5
00:00:26,247 --> 00:00:28,927
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the third of July. I'm Holly Wayne, right,

6
00:00:29,047 --> 00:00:30,287
Speaker 2: I'm me and Friedman.

7
00:00:30,127 --> 00:00:31,327
Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

8
00:00:31,367 --> 00:00:34,167
Speaker 4: And we're still arguing about what happened on Monday and

9
00:00:34,247 --> 00:00:35,847
Speaker 4: Jill Biden and May is still wrong.

10
00:00:35,967 --> 00:00:38,407
Speaker 2: And I think you know, we're the only people who

11
00:00:38,487 --> 00:00:40,847
Speaker 2: care about this as much as we do. Like we're

12
00:00:40,887 --> 00:00:42,847
Speaker 2: all still rowing about Jill Biden.

13
00:00:43,367 --> 00:00:46,287
Speaker 1: On the cover of Vogue. But she carries the weight

14
00:00:46,367 --> 00:00:48,127
Speaker 1: of not just America above the world.

15
00:00:48,407 --> 00:00:49,847
Speaker 2: Let's blame her on her shoulders.

16
00:00:50,127 --> 00:00:53,647
Speaker 1: Not blaming, just saying she marries a great responsibility and

17
00:00:53,687 --> 00:00:55,167
Speaker 1: she needs to tell him to stay.

18
00:00:55,287 --> 00:00:57,487
Speaker 2: Can't bear it as if Mea knows what's going on

19
00:00:57,527 --> 00:01:00,767
Speaker 2: in their kitchen anyway, she needs to hide the show

20
00:01:00,847 --> 00:01:04,487
Speaker 2: today Pomp Pom's the Pink Economy and high kicks from

21
00:01:04,487 --> 00:01:08,407
Speaker 2: help why everyone's arguing about Cheerley this this week? Also,

22
00:01:08,887 --> 00:01:11,407
Speaker 2: here's a world leader allowed to have Friday night off?

23
00:01:11,607 --> 00:01:14,487
Speaker 2: What about any leader? This is the latest spat in

24
00:01:14,527 --> 00:01:18,127
Speaker 2: the UK election and a little known underdog called Taylor Swift.

25
00:01:18,167 --> 00:01:20,847
Speaker 2: It's under attack from a finger wagon columnist and Mia

26
00:01:20,967 --> 00:01:25,527
Speaker 2: kind of agrees with him. But first, Jesse Stephens.

27
00:01:25,007 --> 00:01:27,327
Speaker 4: In case you missed it, there is a fiery debate

28
00:01:27,567 --> 00:01:32,887
Speaker 4: unfolding about about Jill Biden. No, yes, you can find

29
00:01:32,887 --> 00:01:35,727
Speaker 4: a way to make this Jill, Butden's fault. But Abby Chatfield,

30
00:01:35,727 --> 00:01:38,847
Speaker 4: who's a podcast our television host, posted on Instagram this

31
00:01:38,967 --> 00:01:42,207
Speaker 4: week and she posed an am I the ass whole question?

32
00:01:42,407 --> 00:01:45,407
Speaker 4: My favorite type of question, which was essentially, am I

33
00:01:45,527 --> 00:01:48,487
Speaker 4: wrong in thinking people shouldn't beep you when you get

34
00:01:48,487 --> 00:01:50,487
Speaker 4: in your car and you're not ready to go yet?

35
00:01:50,727 --> 00:01:54,447
Speaker 4: I actually think it's so rude. Here's a context. Abby

36
00:01:54,567 --> 00:01:57,287
Speaker 4: had just finished her yoga class, and after her yoga class,

37
00:01:57,287 --> 00:01:59,047
Speaker 4: she was feeling a bit dizzy, bit light headed, and

38
00:01:59,087 --> 00:02:01,887
Speaker 4: she thought, shouldn't drive when I'm feeling dizzy. What I'll

39
00:02:01,887 --> 00:02:03,887
Speaker 4: do is I'll have something to eat, so I'm a

40
00:02:03,927 --> 00:02:06,487
Speaker 4: safe driver. So she sat in her driver's seat, she

41
00:02:06,567 --> 00:02:08,487
Speaker 4: was having something to eat, and someone behind her is

42
00:02:08,487 --> 00:02:12,207
Speaker 4: going babe, babe, and she was going, I've paid for parking.

43
00:02:12,247 --> 00:02:15,047
Speaker 4: I've paid for one hour and thirty seven minutes, still

44
00:02:15,087 --> 00:02:18,087
Speaker 4: got four minutes left. Go keep going. And she said,

45
00:02:18,127 --> 00:02:20,207
Speaker 4: it's very rude of you to beep. I want to

46
00:02:20,247 --> 00:02:23,727
Speaker 4: put this out. Maya is Abby the asshole is the

47
00:02:23,767 --> 00:02:24,567
Speaker 4: beep of the asshole.

48
00:02:25,087 --> 00:02:28,127
Speaker 1: I think Abby could have misinterpreted the beep. I've been

49
00:02:28,167 --> 00:02:30,087
Speaker 1: in this position a lot, because what I've noticed is

50
00:02:30,127 --> 00:02:33,247
Speaker 1: that people will get into their cars now and they'll

51
00:02:33,327 --> 00:02:35,847
Speaker 1: check their phone. So they'll sit there, they'll check their

52
00:02:35,847 --> 00:02:37,807
Speaker 1: phone for a while, might send a few messages to

53
00:02:37,847 --> 00:02:40,087
Speaker 1: a bit of scrolling, and when you're looking for a

54
00:02:40,127 --> 00:02:44,207
Speaker 1: car spot, that's really frustrating and also misleading and a

55
00:02:44,207 --> 00:02:47,527
Speaker 1: bit confusing. So what I will sometimes do to get

56
00:02:47,527 --> 00:02:50,487
Speaker 1: the attention of the driver who is absorbed in their

57
00:02:50,527 --> 00:02:54,967
Speaker 1: phone or in their noodles, I will lightly go bebep.

58
00:02:55,287 --> 00:02:58,007
Speaker 1: I'll tap my horn to get their attention, and then

59
00:02:58,007 --> 00:03:06,287
Speaker 1: I'll say are you going or are you eating or scrolling? No,

60
00:03:06,367 --> 00:03:08,967
Speaker 1: I'm not going, and I don't give them the middle finger.

61
00:03:09,287 --> 00:03:11,767
Speaker 1: I then drive away. Am I a bit irritated? Yes?

62
00:03:11,927 --> 00:03:14,527
Speaker 1: But it wasn't an aggressive beep. It was just like, hey,

63
00:03:14,767 --> 00:03:16,127
Speaker 1: I need you to answer a question.

64
00:03:16,407 --> 00:03:19,567
Speaker 2: If there are any beeps that aren't aggressive except a kidding,

65
00:03:19,607 --> 00:03:22,767
Speaker 2: except for the beeps that are like watch out, you

66
00:03:22,807 --> 00:03:23,287
Speaker 2: know what I mean.

67
00:03:23,407 --> 00:03:26,967
Speaker 3: No, I don't use my horn ever, I don't even.

68
00:03:26,887 --> 00:03:29,447
Speaker 2: Know where it is. You never don't know where my

69
00:03:29,487 --> 00:03:30,607
Speaker 2: horn half your horn.

70
00:03:30,967 --> 00:03:34,607
Speaker 1: I think it's like if you're lights or something and

71
00:03:34,647 --> 00:03:36,887
Speaker 1: you want to get someone's attention and maybe they are scrolling,

72
00:03:36,927 --> 00:03:39,327
Speaker 1: which is illegal. Well maybe they're distracted them a little

73
00:03:39,367 --> 00:03:41,167
Speaker 1: daydream and they didn't see that the lights are changed.

74
00:03:41,687 --> 00:03:43,687
Speaker 1: What you can do at night, I'll flash my high

75
00:03:43,727 --> 00:03:44,967
Speaker 1: beans because that's.

76
00:03:44,807 --> 00:03:45,487
Speaker 2: Better than beeping.

77
00:03:45,687 --> 00:03:47,567
Speaker 1: But you can just give the horn a little tap.

78
00:03:47,767 --> 00:03:48,607
Speaker 1: It's not aggressive.

79
00:03:48,647 --> 00:03:50,527
Speaker 3: I don't mean like a beep.

80
00:03:50,647 --> 00:03:53,527
Speaker 4: I just mean what I will say, is it getting

81
00:03:53,567 --> 00:03:57,767
Speaker 4: into your car use your horn after like you've been

82
00:03:57,767 --> 00:03:59,287
Speaker 4: shopping or you've been out, and you get back into

83
00:03:59,287 --> 00:04:02,287
Speaker 4: your car, giving people the benefit of the doubt. Often

84
00:04:02,327 --> 00:04:04,047
Speaker 4: you've got to get your maps up, you might have

85
00:04:04,127 --> 00:04:06,447
Speaker 4: a quick work thing, you might have a message all

86
00:04:06,487 --> 00:04:08,607
Speaker 4: of that to say that people are scrolling. And they

87
00:04:08,687 --> 00:04:11,367
Speaker 4: might be, but I would rather them get their stuff

88
00:04:11,407 --> 00:04:15,647
Speaker 4: sorted before they start driving than sort their maps out

89
00:04:15,767 --> 00:04:16,807
Speaker 4: as they're going through the car.

90
00:04:17,207 --> 00:04:20,527
Speaker 2: That parking spot is your parking spot until you vacate it.

91
00:04:20,647 --> 00:04:22,727
Speaker 2: That's just the truth. That's the rule. This happened to

92
00:04:22,727 --> 00:04:24,367
Speaker 2: me the other week. It wasn't in a car park.

93
00:04:24,407 --> 00:04:26,367
Speaker 2: It was on the street and I was about to

94
00:04:26,447 --> 00:04:28,087
Speaker 2: drive back from Sydney. This is whole thing. You never

95
00:04:28,087 --> 00:04:30,167
Speaker 2: know someone's life to you. I was about to drive

96
00:04:30,207 --> 00:04:33,407
Speaker 2: back from Sydney. That's a two hour drive. I got

97
00:04:33,527 --> 00:04:36,087
Speaker 2: into my car. I needed to answer a couple of

98
00:04:36,167 --> 00:04:38,607
Speaker 2: urgent messages before I set off, and then I needed

99
00:04:38,687 --> 00:04:40,887
Speaker 2: to set, you know, a thing to play while I

100
00:04:40,927 --> 00:04:43,247
Speaker 2: was going, And I needed to just sort myself out

101
00:04:43,247 --> 00:04:46,407
Speaker 2: for a minute. Right, woman drives up next to me,

102
00:04:46,567 --> 00:04:50,727
Speaker 2: bee bee and then going I'm doing their motion that

103
00:04:50,807 --> 00:04:52,847
Speaker 2: meeah does, And I was like put my hand up,

104
00:04:52,847 --> 00:04:55,327
Speaker 2: like give me a minute, and she's like woo, like

105
00:04:55,487 --> 00:04:58,847
Speaker 2: gesturing wildly, really mad with me. Now, no doubt, I

106
00:04:58,887 --> 00:05:00,727
Speaker 2: don't know her life. She's in a hurry, she's trying

107
00:05:00,767 --> 00:05:02,487
Speaker 2: to find a park, maybe she's got a medical appointment,

108
00:05:02,487 --> 00:05:06,167
Speaker 2: maybe she's got whatever. Right, but guys, we share the street.

109
00:05:06,527 --> 00:05:09,207
Speaker 2: Just because I'm sitting in my car, it doesn't mean

110
00:05:09,527 --> 00:05:11,327
Speaker 2: I have any lesser right to be there than you.

111
00:05:11,487 --> 00:05:13,167
Speaker 4: I agree that there's an etiquette thing, which is if

112
00:05:13,207 --> 00:05:14,887
Speaker 4: you see them waiting and I will do this a

113
00:05:14,887 --> 00:05:16,887
Speaker 4: little gesture which is just like I'm actually going to

114
00:05:16,927 --> 00:05:18,367
Speaker 4: be five or I'm gonna whatever.

115
00:05:18,527 --> 00:05:19,967
Speaker 3: That's courteous. Don't hate that.

116
00:05:20,207 --> 00:05:22,567
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I also think that we're taking out the

117
00:05:22,727 --> 00:05:25,207
Speaker 4: lack of parking in cities on each other.

118
00:05:25,447 --> 00:05:25,767
Speaker 2: Yeah.

119
00:05:25,847 --> 00:05:26,847
Speaker 3: I just think it is a bit.

120
00:05:26,847 --> 00:05:28,447
Speaker 2: Power about when you're in a shopping center the car

121
00:05:28,447 --> 00:05:30,447
Speaker 2: park and you've got a pram and you get back

122
00:05:30,487 --> 00:05:32,727
Speaker 2: to the car and someone's waiting for your spot and

123
00:05:32,727 --> 00:05:34,647
Speaker 2: they're like, are you going, and you're like, yeah, I'm going,

124
00:05:34,847 --> 00:05:36,887
Speaker 2: but it's going to take you a minute. I get

125
00:05:36,887 --> 00:05:39,687
Speaker 2: the baby in, strap the baby in, fold down the thing,

126
00:05:39,767 --> 00:05:42,327
Speaker 2: get all the stuff and the pressure they're waiting, and

127
00:05:42,327 --> 00:05:44,207
Speaker 2: then people are backing up behind them and they're waiting

128
00:05:44,207 --> 00:05:47,327
Speaker 2: and it's like, drive on, guys, find another car spot.

129
00:05:47,127 --> 00:05:48,527
Speaker 3: Like go around the blociety.

130
00:05:48,767 --> 00:05:51,407
Speaker 4: Yes, And then you start making mistakes being watched. So

131
00:05:51,447 --> 00:05:53,047
Speaker 4: I'm gonna drop the baby and I'm gonna put the

132
00:05:53,047 --> 00:05:53,487
Speaker 4: pram in the car.

133
00:05:53,607 --> 00:05:55,247
Speaker 1: I'm just going to give the beeper the benefit of

134
00:05:55,287 --> 00:05:57,487
Speaker 1: the doubt and saying that maybe they were just beeping

135
00:05:57,527 --> 00:06:01,607
Speaker 1: to get her attention to ask her a question. You

136
00:06:01,687 --> 00:06:04,487
Speaker 1: need to look like a supermodel, but perform like an athlete.

137
00:06:05,207 --> 00:06:08,727
Speaker 2: Once that uniform comes on, all of the flaws and

138
00:06:08,727 --> 00:06:10,167
Speaker 2: the problem go out the door.

139
00:06:11,527 --> 00:06:15,367
Speaker 1: Everyone's talking about the biggest show worldwide on Netflix this week,

140
00:06:15,447 --> 00:06:19,807
Speaker 1: America's Sweethearts Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, and there is a ton

141
00:06:20,007 --> 00:06:22,647
Speaker 1: to unpack about the show. It's a documentary in case

142
00:06:22,687 --> 00:06:26,727
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it in many parts that covers the

143
00:06:26,967 --> 00:06:29,807
Speaker 1: choosing of the twenty twenty three squad for the Dallas

144
00:06:29,847 --> 00:06:34,367
Speaker 1: Cowboy cheerleaders, who are the most famous cheerleaders for probably

145
00:06:34,367 --> 00:06:38,407
Speaker 1: the most famous team in the NFL, which is American Football.

146
00:06:39,367 --> 00:06:41,447
Speaker 1: There's a ton to unpack about this show, which we

147
00:06:41,527 --> 00:06:45,527
Speaker 1: have done on a separate episode for subscribers, everything from

148
00:06:45,527 --> 00:06:48,727
Speaker 1: the incredibly strict rules that the cheerleaders have to follow.

149
00:06:48,927 --> 00:06:52,007
Speaker 1: These rules cover everything from morality to the shape of

150
00:06:52,007 --> 00:06:56,047
Speaker 1: their eyebrows and of course their weight. But today we

151
00:06:56,087 --> 00:06:58,207
Speaker 1: want to talk about the topic of the pink economy

152
00:06:58,287 --> 00:07:00,607
Speaker 1: and where the cheerleaders are having a bit of a

153
00:07:00,647 --> 00:07:03,487
Speaker 1: resurgence worldwide after being a little bit on the nose

154
00:07:04,087 --> 00:07:08,127
Speaker 1: over the last ten years or so. The Dallas Cowboys

155
00:07:08,207 --> 00:07:11,007
Speaker 1: are one of the wealthiest and profitable NFL teams, they're

156
00:07:11,047 --> 00:07:15,887
Speaker 1: worth around nine billion US dollars. Even though the cheerleaders

157
00:07:15,967 --> 00:07:20,487
Speaker 1: as a business division within the company make millions of

158
00:07:20,487 --> 00:07:24,647
Speaker 1: dollars through the sales of calendars and sponsorships, they personally

159
00:07:24,807 --> 00:07:28,287
Speaker 1: only make for their season between about fifteen thousand twenty

160
00:07:28,287 --> 00:07:32,487
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars, and that breaks down as about twelve

161
00:07:32,567 --> 00:07:35,207
Speaker 1: dollars per hour they're paid, and about four hundred dollars

162
00:07:35,247 --> 00:07:38,687
Speaker 1: on game days, which can last around eighteen hours. Obviously,

163
00:07:38,687 --> 00:07:41,447
Speaker 1: their work is incredibly grueling. They have to do a

164
00:07:41,447 --> 00:07:44,647
Speaker 1: lot of stuff like faetan and hair and makeup and

165
00:07:44,687 --> 00:07:46,527
Speaker 1: all of that stuff that they have to do themselves.

166
00:07:47,047 --> 00:07:51,127
Speaker 1: In comparison, a Dallas Cowboys mascot earns around sixty five

167
00:07:51,167 --> 00:07:54,327
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. An NFL water boy, the guy who runs

168
00:07:54,367 --> 00:07:57,487
Speaker 1: on the field with water fifty three thousand dollars he

169
00:07:57,607 --> 00:08:01,527
Speaker 1: earns for the season. Now, they've been lawsuits in America.

170
00:08:01,727 --> 00:08:04,527
Speaker 1: There was one from Buffalo Bill's cheerleader who claimed that

171
00:08:04,567 --> 00:08:06,847
Speaker 1: she got just one hundred and five dollars for an

172
00:08:06,967 --> 00:08:09,607
Speaker 1: entire season after she had all of her costs taken

173
00:08:09,607 --> 00:08:12,607
Speaker 1: into account, including having to pay more than six hundred

174
00:08:12,607 --> 00:08:16,047
Speaker 1: dollars for her own uniform. By twenty twenty, ten of

175
00:08:16,087 --> 00:08:19,087
Speaker 1: the NFL's thirty two teams had been sued for wage

176
00:08:19,087 --> 00:08:22,487
Speaker 1: theft and harassment and unsafe working conditions and discrimination, all

177
00:08:22,487 --> 00:08:25,407
Speaker 1: different things. It got us wondering about what the situation

178
00:08:25,447 --> 00:08:28,927
Speaker 1: with cheerleaders was here in Australia. Our daily news podcast

179
00:08:28,927 --> 00:08:31,487
Speaker 1: The Quickie did a deep dive on cheerleaders in the

180
00:08:31,607 --> 00:08:34,527
Speaker 1: NRL in Australia. Here's a little bit of that episode.

181
00:08:34,647 --> 00:08:37,967
Speaker 3: When you finally were getting paid, Were you getting paid enough?

182
00:08:39,087 --> 00:08:39,367
Speaker 5: Well?

183
00:08:39,487 --> 00:08:42,647
Speaker 1: No, upon reflection, it was like fifty dollars a game

184
00:08:42,687 --> 00:08:43,567
Speaker 1: that would get paid.

185
00:08:43,687 --> 00:08:46,007
Speaker 5: So you're not doing it for the money, You're doing

186
00:08:46,007 --> 00:08:50,367
Speaker 5: it for the love and you're obviously working another job

187
00:08:50,527 --> 00:08:52,447
Speaker 5: on the side. I had a full time role and

188
00:08:52,487 --> 00:08:54,127
Speaker 5: I would you know, at the end of the day,

189
00:08:54,287 --> 00:08:57,447
Speaker 5: get into the bathroom, jazz up, drive off to the

190
00:08:57,487 --> 00:09:00,207
Speaker 5: cheerleading gig and get that done as well. So, yeah,

191
00:09:00,247 --> 00:09:01,687
Speaker 5: you're juggling the life.

192
00:09:01,847 --> 00:09:05,047
Speaker 4: Did you feel pressure, even if it wasn't implicitly implied.

193
00:09:05,087 --> 00:09:08,007
Speaker 4: Did you feel pressured to maintain a certain weight whilst

194
00:09:08,007 --> 00:09:09,247
Speaker 4: you were performing as a cheerleader?

195
00:09:09,727 --> 00:09:12,487
Speaker 6: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean that is very standard in the

196
00:09:12,567 --> 00:09:17,047
Speaker 6: dance industry generally, it's something we're always dealing with. I've

197
00:09:17,047 --> 00:09:20,407
Speaker 6: had other contracts where we've been weighed weekly. We weren't

198
00:09:20,447 --> 00:09:23,207
Speaker 6: specifically with the cheer squad weight or anything like that,

199
00:09:23,327 --> 00:09:27,247
Speaker 6: but it is very much an unspoken rule that yet

200
00:09:27,447 --> 00:09:29,447
Speaker 6: you have to maintain the same weight as you were

201
00:09:29,527 --> 00:09:31,127
Speaker 6: hired Jesse, do you.

202
00:09:31,127 --> 00:09:33,567
Speaker 1: Think we should implement way ins here? Nonma me are

203
00:09:33,567 --> 00:09:35,607
Speaker 1: out that well.

204
00:09:36,007 --> 00:09:38,407
Speaker 4: I think what you really should be asking is, if

205
00:09:38,447 --> 00:09:40,247
Speaker 4: you guys love this job so much, then why are

206
00:09:40,247 --> 00:09:40,847
Speaker 4: we paying you?

207
00:09:41,927 --> 00:09:43,967
Speaker 1: Because a lot of people would like to host this show.

208
00:09:43,927 --> 00:09:46,007
Speaker 4: Exactly, And I thought you did it for the love.

209
00:09:46,327 --> 00:09:47,927
Speaker 4: And if you did it for the love, everyone knows

210
00:09:47,967 --> 00:09:48,887
Speaker 4: you can't also be paid.

211
00:09:49,847 --> 00:09:51,487
Speaker 1: Makes it out loud as happy? Isn't that what you do?

212
00:09:51,607 --> 00:09:54,247
Speaker 4: Yeah? Exactly right, and we know if you're not doing it,

213
00:09:54,687 --> 00:09:58,247
Speaker 4: I've got five hundred other girls, yeah, with false eyelashes

214
00:09:58,287 --> 00:10:00,167
Speaker 4: and big hair that are very happy to take your spot.

215
00:10:00,607 --> 00:10:02,607
Speaker 4: We were talking in the subscriber episode and when he

216
00:10:02,727 --> 00:10:04,527
Speaker 4: sat down it was meant to be a short episode

217
00:10:04,527 --> 00:10:05,567
Speaker 4: and I had forty minutes.

218
00:10:05,607 --> 00:10:08,367
Speaker 3: We thought we'd probably overdone.

219
00:10:07,927 --> 00:10:10,847
Speaker 2: It and was like, I'm turning the microphone.

220
00:10:10,327 --> 00:10:11,967
Speaker 1: And it still wasn't enough. So we're like let's talk

221
00:10:11,967 --> 00:10:13,047
Speaker 1: about it on the main show.

222
00:10:13,807 --> 00:10:16,047
Speaker 4: When we talked about it there, we were saying, I

223
00:10:16,127 --> 00:10:22,527
Speaker 4: can't imagine a male comparison, Like the football players also

224
00:10:22,647 --> 00:10:25,207
Speaker 4: love it and also love the camaraderie, but they also

225
00:10:25,807 --> 00:10:28,007
Speaker 4: are decently paid. And one thing that I've learned from

226
00:10:28,487 --> 00:10:33,047
Speaker 4: this show as well as cheer is the incredible athleticism

227
00:10:33,367 --> 00:10:36,647
Speaker 4: of these dancers, of these cheerleaders. And I was thinking

228
00:10:36,687 --> 00:10:40,527
Speaker 4: about how culturally, probably from Bring It On, remember the

229
00:10:40,527 --> 00:10:43,007
Speaker 4: movie Bring It On. Yeah, it's like we have been

230
00:10:43,087 --> 00:10:47,767
Speaker 4: trying to relaunch or rebrand or rehabilitate the cheerleading image

231
00:10:47,767 --> 00:10:51,447
Speaker 4: because certainly in the nineties, after a few waves of feminism,

232
00:10:51,807 --> 00:10:54,167
Speaker 4: it was seen as a bit on the nose and

233
00:10:54,207 --> 00:10:57,207
Speaker 4: potentially objectifying. I was a kid who went to a

234
00:10:57,207 --> 00:11:00,087
Speaker 4: lot of NRL games and you would see the cheerleaders

235
00:11:00,087 --> 00:11:01,527
Speaker 4: and you would hear the way that the men talked

236
00:11:01,567 --> 00:11:05,127
Speaker 4: about them, and I didn't feel that it was aspirational

237
00:11:05,167 --> 00:11:07,567
Speaker 4: at that time, because I thought I would never want

238
00:11:07,607 --> 00:11:08,647
Speaker 4: men to talk about me.

239
00:11:09,447 --> 00:11:12,607
Speaker 1: Bed cheerleader when I was a kid, really desperately. I

240
00:11:12,647 --> 00:11:15,327
Speaker 1: remember in two thousand and seven, You're right, that's kind

241
00:11:15,327 --> 00:11:16,767
Speaker 1: of when it started to be a little bit on

242
00:11:16,807 --> 00:11:20,327
Speaker 1: the nose and Russell Crowe, who owns the South Sydney

243
00:11:20,367 --> 00:11:24,647
Speaker 1: Rabbito's club, he got rid of cheerleaders for them because

244
00:11:24,687 --> 00:11:28,327
Speaker 1: he said it made male fans feel uncomfortable, which I

245
00:11:28,327 --> 00:11:30,447
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true. And he said our focus,

246
00:11:30,527 --> 00:11:33,127
Speaker 1: I know exactly what he's saying, re established rugby league

247
00:11:33,167 --> 00:11:36,327
Speaker 1: and women. So he was saying that the cheerleaders would

248
00:11:36,727 --> 00:11:38,767
Speaker 1: sexualize the atmosphere and they were trying to make it

249
00:11:38,807 --> 00:11:41,407
Speaker 1: more of a family game. So he briefly replaced them

250
00:11:41,407 --> 00:11:44,247
Speaker 1: with a group of drummers male and female, so there

251
00:11:44,327 --> 00:11:47,247
Speaker 1: was like halftime entertainment that only lasted a couple of years.

252
00:11:47,247 --> 00:11:49,287
Speaker 1: They went very popular and now they just have music

253
00:11:49,287 --> 00:11:50,687
Speaker 1: and videos on the big screen.

254
00:11:50,647 --> 00:11:52,287
Speaker 2: As to quite a lot of teams in the NRL.

255
00:11:52,367 --> 00:11:54,407
Speaker 2: So the reason in Australia we'd be talking about the

256
00:11:54,487 --> 00:11:56,807
Speaker 2: NRL is the AFL do not have cheerleaders. They did

257
00:11:56,847 --> 00:11:58,807
Speaker 2: once upon a time there was something called the Swantt's

258
00:11:58,807 --> 00:12:01,047
Speaker 2: and Sydney Swans in fact, but they haven't done for

259
00:12:01,127 --> 00:12:04,607
Speaker 2: ages and ages, whereas these days some NRL teams do

260
00:12:04,727 --> 00:12:08,607
Speaker 2: and some NRL teams don't. More than half do. Still though,

261
00:12:09,247 --> 00:12:11,807
Speaker 2: it's interesting because the two dancers who were interviewed on

262
00:12:11,847 --> 00:12:14,407
Speaker 2: the Quickie were both NURL cheerleaders, and they were talking

263
00:12:14,767 --> 00:12:16,927
Speaker 2: as they said about how the reasons why they did it,

264
00:12:16,967 --> 00:12:19,287
Speaker 2: because as they spelled it out, it wasn't money, that's

265
00:12:19,327 --> 00:12:22,007
Speaker 2: for sure, because they're saying that what your job entails

266
00:12:22,047 --> 00:12:25,127
Speaker 2: is at least two rehearsals a week, meeting greets before

267
00:12:25,167 --> 00:12:27,767
Speaker 2: and after the game, staying on the field to watch

268
00:12:27,807 --> 00:12:30,807
Speaker 2: the entire game always, obviously, and all that breaks down

269
00:12:30,847 --> 00:12:32,687
Speaker 2: to an HOURI rate of about five dollars an hour.

270
00:12:32,767 --> 00:12:34,007
Speaker 2: So you're not doing it for the money. So they

271
00:12:34,007 --> 00:12:37,567
Speaker 2: said why do they do it? They said they loved dancing,

272
00:12:37,647 --> 00:12:40,047
Speaker 2: love performing, love rugby league, wanted to be part of

273
00:12:40,087 --> 00:12:43,407
Speaker 2: the club and participate. Now, the thing that I find

274
00:12:43,487 --> 00:12:45,527
Speaker 2: really hard to unpick in all this because watching the

275
00:12:45,607 --> 00:12:48,047
Speaker 2: Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders show, and we said this on the

276
00:12:48,047 --> 00:12:50,927
Speaker 2: show yesterday, there is no doubt I got to the

277
00:12:51,047 --> 00:12:53,607
Speaker 2: end of that series and had nothing but admiration for

278
00:12:53,687 --> 00:12:56,927
Speaker 2: these dancers. I really did. They were all amazing women,

279
00:12:56,967 --> 00:12:59,607
Speaker 2: They all had other jobs, are doing amazing things. Their

280
00:12:59,647 --> 00:13:03,047
Speaker 2: work ethic was unquestionable. They behaved towards each other in

281
00:13:03,687 --> 00:13:07,127
Speaker 2: a really beautiful sisterly way. There was no I didn't

282
00:13:07,167 --> 00:13:10,607
Speaker 2: have any criticism of them. I find it interesting that

283
00:13:10,647 --> 00:13:14,087
Speaker 2: when I was consuming this documentary in an obsessive fashion

284
00:13:14,087 --> 00:13:16,847
Speaker 2: over the past week or so, whenever my teenage daughter

285
00:13:16,847 --> 00:13:18,607
Speaker 2: would walk in the room, I would turn it off

286
00:13:19,207 --> 00:13:22,207
Speaker 2: because I didn't really want her to see it. Why,

287
00:13:22,407 --> 00:13:24,047
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like if I question myself,

288
00:13:24,047 --> 00:13:25,967
Speaker 2: and one of the things is is that my daughter,

289
00:13:26,247 --> 00:13:30,447
Speaker 2: who's fourteen, loves sport, and she's a mad AFL player,

290
00:13:30,887 --> 00:13:33,367
Speaker 2: and so every Sunday and actually four times a week

291
00:13:33,367 --> 00:13:36,007
Speaker 2: at the moment, she is out on a field running

292
00:13:36,087 --> 00:13:39,207
Speaker 2: around in short shorts and a tight top, but running

293
00:13:39,247 --> 00:13:43,567
Speaker 2: around getting muddy, getting dirty, getting sweaty, playing the actual game.

294
00:13:44,127 --> 00:13:48,567
Speaker 2: I respect dancers enormously, and I respect the entertainment factor,

295
00:13:49,007 --> 00:13:51,607
Speaker 2: but I think it's very hard to unpick in a

296
00:13:51,647 --> 00:13:54,847
Speaker 2: code like NRL in particular, that has a lot of issues.

297
00:13:54,927 --> 00:13:57,967
Speaker 2: Let's be honest with attitudes towards women that they've been

298
00:13:57,967 --> 00:14:00,687
Speaker 2: trying to undo with various levels of commitment and success

299
00:14:00,767 --> 00:14:04,687
Speaker 2: for decades, that the involvement of women they want is

300
00:14:04,807 --> 00:14:09,727
Speaker 2: that kind a decorative, ornamental role that is their scifically

301
00:14:09,807 --> 00:14:12,247
Speaker 2: to applaud when the men on the field do something

302
00:14:12,327 --> 00:14:15,647
Speaker 2: good rather than doing the thing themselves. And what's interesting

303
00:14:15,727 --> 00:14:17,527
Speaker 2: is the world is shifting that way. Last week it

304
00:14:17,527 --> 00:14:20,527
Speaker 2: was the NRL Women's State of Origin Final. It was

305
00:14:20,607 --> 00:14:23,967
Speaker 2: sold out in a massive stadium. They had two million

306
00:14:24,047 --> 00:14:28,567
Speaker 2: people watching it on television. That is unprecedented. That is changed.

307
00:14:28,607 --> 00:14:30,847
Speaker 2: That is happening at an amazing rate. It was a

308
00:14:30,847 --> 00:14:32,927
Speaker 2: great game. My daughter watched that and oh my god,

309
00:14:33,047 --> 00:14:36,687
Speaker 2: was she in All of those women who were smashing

310
00:14:36,767 --> 00:14:39,327
Speaker 2: into each other on the field, thrown them on the floor,

311
00:14:39,847 --> 00:14:42,367
Speaker 2: highly competitive competing for a cup.

312
00:14:42,647 --> 00:14:45,487
Speaker 4: I'm in awe of the athleticism of the dancers too.

313
00:14:45,527 --> 00:14:47,207
Speaker 4: And I know it is saying holly because even in

314
00:14:47,247 --> 00:14:51,687
Speaker 4: the documentary, you watch it and you see that. So

315
00:14:51,807 --> 00:14:56,367
Speaker 4: Dallas cowboys at this incredibly powerful, wealthy institution. If you

316
00:14:56,447 --> 00:14:59,167
Speaker 4: want to be part of it, your options are cheerleader

317
00:14:59,847 --> 00:15:02,927
Speaker 4: or biologically related to men who runs.

318
00:15:02,687 --> 00:15:04,647
Speaker 2: It, maybe working behind the scenes. I'm sure they've got

319
00:15:04,687 --> 00:15:05,887
Speaker 2: a lot of women in the offices.

320
00:15:06,087 --> 00:15:08,927
Speaker 4: Most of the women that we saw were kind of

321
00:15:08,967 --> 00:15:11,407
Speaker 4: the your leader. And it is a powerful institution, right,

322
00:15:11,847 --> 00:15:12,407
Speaker 4: So it's very.

323
00:15:12,407 --> 00:15:15,247
Speaker 1: Much the ultimate patriarchal structure. Whereas the men are doing

324
00:15:15,287 --> 00:15:18,247
Speaker 1: the things, and the women are literally supporting them and

325
00:15:18,327 --> 00:15:18,927
Speaker 1: cheering them.

326
00:15:19,247 --> 00:15:20,327
Speaker 3: Who are we blaming here?

327
00:15:20,327 --> 00:15:24,087
Speaker 4: And I think about my self and my own naivety

328
00:15:24,367 --> 00:15:29,007
Speaker 4: and being probably quite judgmental years and years ago, where

329
00:15:29,167 --> 00:15:32,207
Speaker 4: I would look at the cheerleaders and what they were

330
00:15:32,247 --> 00:15:37,247
Speaker 4: wearing or whatever and would probably denigrate a little bit them.

331
00:15:37,487 --> 00:15:41,247
Speaker 4: That's internalized misogyny, and that's almost victim blaming because it's like,

332
00:15:41,847 --> 00:15:44,967
Speaker 4: if you are a dancer, and dancers are some of

333
00:15:45,047 --> 00:15:50,647
Speaker 4: the most athletic, hard working, impressive athletes, I know, poorly.

334
00:15:50,487 --> 00:15:53,207
Speaker 3: Paid as well, Yes, what are your options?

335
00:15:53,287 --> 00:15:56,007
Speaker 4: And if you love dancing, if you love dancing and

336
00:15:56,047 --> 00:15:57,367
Speaker 4: you're really really good at.

337
00:15:57,367 --> 00:15:59,807
Speaker 1: To dance at home, yeah, I guess like.

338
00:16:00,207 --> 00:16:03,807
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally understand why that would be what you do,

339
00:16:04,447 --> 00:16:08,407
Speaker 4: and we all routinely undermine it, just like we do anything.

340
00:16:08,767 --> 00:16:11,647
Speaker 1: I think so because part of what you need to

341
00:16:11,727 --> 00:16:16,287
Speaker 1: do in that context is the sexy aspect. So you

342
00:16:16,367 --> 00:16:18,607
Speaker 1: can't pretend that that's not part of it. They're not

343
00:16:18,687 --> 00:16:22,647
Speaker 1: out there in comfortable clothes and shoes. It's sexualized. And

344
00:16:22,807 --> 00:16:26,687
Speaker 1: the dancers themselves say, oh, because we've got to move

345
00:16:26,687 --> 00:16:29,567
Speaker 1: this certain way, which is like hips. First, we're all

346
00:16:29,607 --> 00:16:32,127
Speaker 1: throwing our backs out, we've got you know, broken hips,

347
00:16:32,167 --> 00:16:36,447
Speaker 1: we're damaging our bodies because it's quite sexualized. That is

348
00:16:36,527 --> 00:16:39,007
Speaker 1: very different to just say ballet. And I'm not saying

349
00:16:39,047 --> 00:16:42,287
Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with it, but when you say, oh,

350
00:16:42,327 --> 00:16:44,967
Speaker 1: why does it make us feel a bit as women?

351
00:16:45,447 --> 00:16:46,647
Speaker 1: I think it's that part.

352
00:16:47,047 --> 00:16:49,567
Speaker 4: I reckon that this could be a cultural reckoning where

353
00:16:49,567 --> 00:16:52,247
Speaker 4: we're pivoting and going hang on. I was even thinking

354
00:16:52,247 --> 00:16:53,647
Speaker 4: with cheer, and even with this, I was.

355
00:16:53,567 --> 00:16:55,687
Speaker 3: Like, there should be an Olympics. I would watch this.

356
00:16:57,327 --> 00:17:00,607
Speaker 1: Like cheer should definitely be in the Olympics. But if

357
00:17:00,647 --> 00:17:03,167
Speaker 1: you haven't watched it, and maybe you've watched cheer, cheer

358
00:17:03,207 --> 00:17:05,767
Speaker 1: is different. So that is literally about gymnastics. It's about

359
00:17:06,047 --> 00:17:08,967
Speaker 1: doing links and pyramids and all that kind of stuff.

360
00:17:09,447 --> 00:17:12,087
Speaker 1: In cheer, they're not cheering, they're anyone on the sideline

361
00:17:12,127 --> 00:17:14,767
Speaker 1: of a game. They're the main event. And it's also

362
00:17:14,967 --> 00:17:17,407
Speaker 1: you know, men and women. But for this it's literally

363
00:17:17,407 --> 00:17:19,367
Speaker 1: on the side of the event. As Holly said, it's

364
00:17:19,647 --> 00:17:23,087
Speaker 1: either halftime entertainment or when the men do something on

365
00:17:23,127 --> 00:17:25,927
Speaker 1: the field, the women do little dancers on the side.

366
00:17:26,287 --> 00:17:29,207
Speaker 1: And it's also being ambassadors because they also go out

367
00:17:29,207 --> 00:17:31,287
Speaker 1: into the community, and they make calendars and they sign

368
00:17:31,327 --> 00:17:34,807
Speaker 1: and they go visit people in nursing homes and kindergartens

369
00:17:34,847 --> 00:17:36,967
Speaker 1: and they bring some of that glamour. So they're part

370
00:17:37,047 --> 00:17:40,007
Speaker 1: of the branding, but it's like the sex cells.

371
00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:41,407
Speaker 2: Part of the back. I think the reason I feel

372
00:17:41,447 --> 00:17:44,167
Speaker 2: uncomfortable because I've said before, when the NRL was having

373
00:17:44,207 --> 00:17:45,887
Speaker 2: this big reckoning and trying to figure out how to

374
00:17:45,887 --> 00:17:47,967
Speaker 2: get more women at games and make them feel more comfortable,

375
00:17:48,007 --> 00:17:50,087
Speaker 2: that's when a lot of teams started letting their cheerleaders go.

376
00:17:50,127 --> 00:17:52,847
Speaker 2: And I remember writing some stories around that and getting

377
00:17:52,887 --> 00:17:55,647
Speaker 2: pushback from women who worked in that field and being like,

378
00:17:56,087 --> 00:17:59,087
Speaker 2: you make it sound like I am a stripper, and

379
00:17:59,127 --> 00:18:02,207
Speaker 2: they say, no disrespect to dancers who are working in

380
00:18:02,247 --> 00:18:04,767
Speaker 2: adult clubs, but that is not what I do, and

381
00:18:04,807 --> 00:18:07,167
Speaker 2: you're making it sound like I am. And this is

382
00:18:07,167 --> 00:18:09,927
Speaker 2: a highly skilled thing and all that stuff. I totally

383
00:18:09,967 --> 00:18:11,527
Speaker 2: take all that on board, and as I said, watching

384
00:18:11,527 --> 00:18:13,727
Speaker 2: these women have nothing but admiration, I think the problem

385
00:18:13,847 --> 00:18:16,887
Speaker 2: is it feels like a throwback to a time when

386
00:18:16,927 --> 00:18:19,047
Speaker 2: that was the only way women could get status in

387
00:18:19,087 --> 00:18:22,287
Speaker 2: that world, right, and in the world full style, yes,

388
00:18:22,327 --> 00:18:25,527
Speaker 2: but specifically in male dominated environments. Like that is that

389
00:18:25,687 --> 00:18:29,167
Speaker 2: you think about the cheerleader, Think about every high school

390
00:18:29,207 --> 00:18:32,607
Speaker 2: movie you've ever seen, any story you've ever read about

391
00:18:32,607 --> 00:18:34,527
Speaker 2: that world, particularly in America, and it is an imported

392
00:18:34,567 --> 00:18:37,847
Speaker 2: American thing here in Australia. The cheerleaders are the popular,

393
00:18:37,887 --> 00:18:40,807
Speaker 2: the girls, the beautiful girls, the girls who date the quarterback,

394
00:18:40,927 --> 00:18:43,607
Speaker 2: the girls everybody's like either wants to be or is

395
00:18:43,647 --> 00:18:47,247
Speaker 2: frightened off right. And so when I look at these

396
00:18:47,287 --> 00:18:49,327
Speaker 2: women and you think, oh, you get to play in

397
00:18:49,327 --> 00:18:52,647
Speaker 2: that world, but only in that role, it sort of

398
00:18:52,687 --> 00:18:55,887
Speaker 2: throws me back to that idea. Whereas actually, now, as

399
00:18:55,927 --> 00:18:58,247
Speaker 2: I was just saying about the Women's NRL, there are

400
00:18:58,247 --> 00:19:00,487
Speaker 2: lots of different ways that women can be involved in

401
00:19:00,527 --> 00:19:03,647
Speaker 2: sport now and they are literally breaking down doors. So

402
00:19:03,847 --> 00:19:07,127
Speaker 2: I can appreciate what the cheerleaders do. But I think

403
00:19:07,167 --> 00:19:09,087
Speaker 2: probably the reason why I close my computer when my

404
00:19:09,087 --> 00:19:11,407
Speaker 2: door to watch in the room is I'm like, I

405
00:19:11,487 --> 00:19:14,647
Speaker 2: don't want her to think that that is the only

406
00:19:14,687 --> 00:19:17,247
Speaker 2: way for a woman to be involved in something she loves,

407
00:19:17,287 --> 00:19:19,127
Speaker 2: which is that sporting football world.

408
00:19:19,247 --> 00:19:21,767
Speaker 4: Well, for those women though, the football world wasn't what

409
00:19:21,807 --> 00:19:23,327
Speaker 4: they loved. The dancing was what they loved.

410
00:19:23,407 --> 00:19:25,487
Speaker 2: Yeah, but a lot of these women would say that

411
00:19:25,487 --> 00:19:28,487
Speaker 2: that's why they chose cheerleading. Is they loved dancing and

412
00:19:28,527 --> 00:19:29,847
Speaker 2: they wanted to be part of the team.

413
00:19:29,927 --> 00:19:32,487
Speaker 3: Yes, but I wonder to use that.

414
00:19:32,407 --> 00:19:35,047
Speaker 1: They can't have any contact with the football players. Why

415
00:19:35,087 --> 00:19:37,207
Speaker 1: do you think that is? It's never explained. And I

416
00:19:37,207 --> 00:19:39,807
Speaker 1: thought the voices of the Dallas Cowboys was really missing

417
00:19:39,807 --> 00:19:42,407
Speaker 1: from this documentary to have not one of them. I

418
00:19:42,407 --> 00:19:44,047
Speaker 1: want to know what the footballers think of them.

419
00:19:44,567 --> 00:19:47,407
Speaker 4: I was reading about how they're not allowed to fratnize

420
00:19:47,447 --> 00:19:50,247
Speaker 4: and even in some cases they're not allowed to follow

421
00:19:50,327 --> 00:19:52,287
Speaker 4: any of them on Instagram, Like there's not allowed to

422
00:19:52,287 --> 00:19:53,367
Speaker 4: be any interest in the.

423
00:19:53,367 --> 00:19:54,487
Speaker 3: Two travel together.

424
00:19:54,487 --> 00:19:55,687
Speaker 2: I think I don't know why.

425
00:19:56,327 --> 00:20:01,687
Speaker 4: Well, if something does happen, the cheerleader, unsurprisingly is let go. Yeah,

426
00:20:01,727 --> 00:20:03,767
Speaker 4: and the football player keepsy starts.

427
00:20:03,407 --> 00:20:04,207
Speaker 1: To protect the women.

428
00:20:06,447 --> 00:20:07,687
Speaker 2: That's the man's reputation.

429
00:20:08,007 --> 00:20:10,007
Speaker 3: Yeah, the men's reputation, it's been psarciastic.

430
00:20:10,047 --> 00:20:12,487
Speaker 1: It's not to protect the women's well.

431
00:20:12,527 --> 00:20:15,287
Speaker 4: And the idea is too that those women are held

432
00:20:15,367 --> 00:20:18,807
Speaker 4: up as a male fantasy, and in order to be

433
00:20:18,847 --> 00:20:21,647
Speaker 4: a male fantasy, they have to take off their wedding rings.

434
00:20:21,807 --> 00:20:24,407
Speaker 4: They are not allowed to touch their boyfriends. Anywhere around

435
00:20:24,407 --> 00:20:28,447
Speaker 4: the stadium. They are to be looked at but not touched.

436
00:20:29,207 --> 00:20:31,567
Speaker 4: That the idea is that they are It's like the

437
00:20:31,607 --> 00:20:34,447
Speaker 4: Madonna hare complex that we were talking about, where it's

438
00:20:34,767 --> 00:20:37,967
Speaker 4: these women are just elevated and it almost would like

439
00:20:38,607 --> 00:20:42,687
Speaker 4: plummet their status if they were touched by someone like

440
00:20:42,727 --> 00:20:45,047
Speaker 4: it's incredibly regretful.

441
00:20:45,327 --> 00:20:48,087
Speaker 1: They'd make them dirty slots if they had had sex

442
00:20:48,207 --> 00:20:51,887
Speaker 1: or were in any way, even though they portray themselves sexually.

443
00:20:51,927 --> 00:20:54,727
Speaker 1: And that's the point. They're both Madonna and whare in

444
00:20:54,767 --> 00:20:55,967
Speaker 1: this analogy. Wow.

445
00:20:56,087 --> 00:20:59,847
Speaker 2: But I also think that no fraternization policies are relatively new,

446
00:21:00,367 --> 00:21:04,647
Speaker 2: and I think that's because of that whole cheerleader quarterback

447
00:21:04,767 --> 00:21:07,367
Speaker 2: stereotype I was talking about before, and that part of

448
00:21:07,407 --> 00:21:09,687
Speaker 2: the denigration of cheerleaders is there are only to snare

449
00:21:09,727 --> 00:21:13,447
Speaker 2: themselves a footballer who are the ultimate high status alpha males. Right,

450
00:21:13,807 --> 00:21:15,927
Speaker 2: So they're trying to unpick some of all the mess

451
00:21:15,967 --> 00:21:19,327
Speaker 2: that can then follow that situation. And if you imagine

452
00:21:19,367 --> 00:21:21,887
Speaker 2: that the cheerleaders and the footballers are out drinking together

453
00:21:21,927 --> 00:21:24,487
Speaker 2: after games and all, like, you can only imagine so

454
00:21:24,927 --> 00:21:26,287
Speaker 2: is pr management as.

455
00:21:26,167 --> 00:21:30,407
Speaker 1: Well sexual purity? Yes, And also they've got these morality codes,

456
00:21:30,447 --> 00:21:31,127
Speaker 1: don't they Yes?

457
00:21:31,167 --> 00:21:33,127
Speaker 4: And also I guess there's a power and balance. There's

458
00:21:33,127 --> 00:21:35,727
Speaker 4: a workplace power and balance, which is that from payment

459
00:21:35,767 --> 00:21:38,007
Speaker 4: to where you stand in the hierarchy, Like, yeah, women

460
00:21:38,047 --> 00:21:39,327
Speaker 4: can be exploited.

461
00:21:38,847 --> 00:21:39,487
Speaker 1: But don't matter.

462
00:21:39,727 --> 00:21:41,567
Speaker 3: There are a lot of rules.

463
00:21:41,247 --> 00:21:43,767
Speaker 4: That I was going through, so I found this one interesting.

464
00:21:43,807 --> 00:21:45,727
Speaker 4: You're not allowed to wear glitter eyeshadow. It must be

465
00:21:45,807 --> 00:21:49,767
Speaker 4: matt so they don't like glitter. No visible tattoos.

466
00:21:50,647 --> 00:21:52,967
Speaker 2: You did notice that none of them had tattoos, which

467
00:21:52,967 --> 00:21:54,967
Speaker 2: is unusual for a group of women that age.

468
00:21:55,367 --> 00:21:59,047
Speaker 4: No going out in jeans or sweatpants, so they have

469
00:21:59,127 --> 00:22:01,487
Speaker 4: to be seen glammed up, even if you're going to

470
00:22:01,527 --> 00:22:03,767
Speaker 4: the local shops in Texas, like you've got to be

471
00:22:04,207 --> 00:22:08,247
Speaker 4: you are a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader always. I find full

472
00:22:08,287 --> 00:22:11,367
Speaker 4: hair and makeup to train every day completely unnecessary.

473
00:22:11,687 --> 00:22:13,407
Speaker 2: And there was a scene in this There was a

474
00:22:13,447 --> 00:22:16,647
Speaker 2: scene in the show where one of the women doesn't

475
00:22:16,647 --> 00:22:19,047
Speaker 2: wear makeup to training and she gets a big telling

476
00:22:19,127 --> 00:22:22,047
Speaker 2: off and it was like, you haven't made an effort.

477
00:22:22,127 --> 00:22:23,927
Speaker 2: It's like you don't care if you just rolled out

478
00:22:23,927 --> 00:22:26,247
Speaker 2: of bed, like what would And they know use the

479
00:22:26,327 --> 00:22:28,447
Speaker 2: name of some iconic too. Well would they think of

480
00:22:28,487 --> 00:22:30,647
Speaker 2: this today? And she was like, oh, I'm just told.

481
00:22:32,327 --> 00:22:35,167
Speaker 3: You can't be anywhere where alcohol is served.

482
00:22:36,287 --> 00:22:37,647
Speaker 2: But isn't that a football game?

483
00:22:38,047 --> 00:22:39,607
Speaker 4: Well, you're I'm allowed to be near the bar, you know,

484
00:22:39,647 --> 00:22:41,407
Speaker 4: allowed to go to parties on the weekend because of

485
00:22:41,407 --> 00:22:44,647
Speaker 4: the your proximity to alcohol. And you're allowed to eat

486
00:22:44,687 --> 00:22:47,607
Speaker 4: after six pm. That's sorry, You're allowed to eat after

487
00:22:47,647 --> 00:22:48,887
Speaker 4: six pm, says it in the rule book.

488
00:22:49,447 --> 00:22:51,767
Speaker 1: Well, I was on my way to try out for

489
00:22:51,847 --> 00:22:55,767
Speaker 1: next year the tattoo rule. That's going to just qualify

490
00:22:55,847 --> 00:22:56,607
Speaker 1: and they like to eat.

491
00:22:56,487 --> 00:22:57,367
Speaker 2: My dinner at seven.

492
00:22:58,047 --> 00:23:00,967
Speaker 4: I just hope that the Netflix success. If there is

493
00:23:01,007 --> 00:23:05,127
Speaker 4: one message that viewers ascending the world, it is that cheer.

494
00:23:05,567 --> 00:23:09,887
Speaker 4: Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders are the main event, like they are

495
00:23:10,287 --> 00:23:12,127
Speaker 4: what everyone wants to watch. I don't give a shit

496
00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:14,727
Speaker 4: about American football. I could watch those cheerleaders cheer all

497
00:23:14,767 --> 00:23:15,047
Speaker 4: day long.

498
00:23:15,087 --> 00:23:17,007
Speaker 1: The footballer should be on the sidelines cheering.

499
00:23:17,047 --> 00:23:21,287
Speaker 4: Fungerstruck out louders on behalf of Mummy are out loud.

500
00:23:21,287 --> 00:23:28,887
Speaker 3: I want to apologize. I want to apologize.

501
00:23:28,367 --> 00:23:32,847
Speaker 4: Because if you heard any strange jingle in that segment,

502
00:23:33,407 --> 00:23:35,727
Speaker 4: this is funny because we're recording it in post and

503
00:23:35,767 --> 00:23:39,007
Speaker 4: it just makes me giggle. That's because me is wearing

504
00:23:39,167 --> 00:23:45,687
Speaker 4: shoe jewelry, which, if you're wondering, isn't a thing. It's

505
00:23:45,767 --> 00:23:49,407
Speaker 4: not a thing around my shoe.

506
00:23:49,407 --> 00:23:51,367
Speaker 1: But I didn't realize that it was going to be an.

507
00:23:51,207 --> 00:23:55,647
Speaker 4: Audio, So if you hear some jingle jangle, that would

508
00:23:55,687 --> 00:23:57,607
Speaker 4: be MEA's shoe jewelry in the background.

509
00:23:57,967 --> 00:23:59,167
Speaker 3: Sorry about that distraction.

510
00:23:59,327 --> 00:24:01,207
Speaker 1: Sorry.

511
00:24:01,247 --> 00:24:05,207
Speaker 2: This month, Mumma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't

512
00:24:05,207 --> 00:24:09,887
Speaker 2: all that exciting when they're not well your birthday presents,

513
00:24:10,007 --> 00:24:11,887
Speaker 2: so we want to take this as a chance to

514
00:24:11,927 --> 00:24:14,287
Speaker 2: give you a treat and say thank you for being

515
00:24:14,327 --> 00:24:15,327
Speaker 2: on the ride with us.

516
00:24:15,487 --> 00:24:17,607
Speaker 1: Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly

517
00:24:17,687 --> 00:24:21,207
Speaker 1: Muma MEA subscription with the code out Loud Birthday.

518
00:24:21,607 --> 00:24:23,967
Speaker 2: The offer is valid for limited time only, and you'll

519
00:24:24,007 --> 00:24:26,047
Speaker 2: find all the details of how to do that in

520
00:24:26,087 --> 00:24:32,447
Speaker 2: the show notes. Enjoy My Friends.

521
00:24:34,407 --> 00:24:37,487
Speaker 4: A man named kir Starmer, a labor politician who wants

522
00:24:37,487 --> 00:24:40,727
Speaker 4: to invest in the NHS, improved state schools, clamp down

523
00:24:40,727 --> 00:24:43,847
Speaker 4: on companies at harm the environment, and increase the minimum wage,

524
00:24:44,207 --> 00:24:46,607
Speaker 4: will likely by the end of this week be the

525
00:24:46,647 --> 00:24:49,847
Speaker 4: new Prime Minister of Britain. He is sixty one years old.

526
00:24:50,047 --> 00:24:52,927
Speaker 4: He's got two kids, a sixteen and a thirteen year old,

527
00:24:53,327 --> 00:24:57,207
Speaker 4: and this will become relevant. His wife is Jewish. I

528
00:24:57,327 --> 00:25:00,647
Speaker 4: mentioned that she's Jewish because on Friday nights the family

529
00:25:00,767 --> 00:25:06,887
Speaker 4: observe traditional Shabbat dinners. Maya Chabbat means shabbat. I can't

530
00:25:06,927 --> 00:25:07,247
Speaker 4: say it.

531
00:25:07,407 --> 00:25:09,047
Speaker 1: You've been going to them for a while.

532
00:25:09,327 --> 00:25:12,567
Speaker 3: I know, I'm waiting to the bat of it all. Yeah,

533
00:25:12,607 --> 00:25:13,327
Speaker 3: but it's shabba.

534
00:25:13,527 --> 00:25:18,527
Speaker 4: But but shabat cha butt schabat and it means rest.

535
00:25:19,167 --> 00:25:20,887
Speaker 3: I don't like, not literally, It's like.

536
00:25:20,887 --> 00:25:23,007
Speaker 1: You know how the Christians have the day of rest

537
00:25:23,047 --> 00:25:28,447
Speaker 1: is Sunday. The Jews go from sunset on Friday to

538
00:25:28,567 --> 00:25:31,567
Speaker 1: sunset on Saturday. That's when you meant to rest. The

539
00:25:31,607 --> 00:25:34,927
Speaker 1: Jews rest on Saturday, right, Okay, So and Friday night

540
00:25:35,007 --> 00:25:37,767
Speaker 1: usually it's like a time when you have a family meal.

541
00:25:37,847 --> 00:25:40,767
Speaker 1: So the family just comes together and you have a

542
00:25:40,807 --> 00:25:44,087
Speaker 1: meal as a tradition. You have certain bread, you have wine,

543
00:25:44,127 --> 00:25:46,407
Speaker 1: you do a couple of blessings. Some people, you know,

544
00:25:46,607 --> 00:25:49,847
Speaker 1: depending on how religious they are, do more. But generally

545
00:25:50,207 --> 00:25:52,567
Speaker 1: it's like an informal way for the family to get

546
00:25:52,607 --> 00:25:53,967
Speaker 1: together every Friday.

547
00:25:54,047 --> 00:25:55,727
Speaker 3: It's family time and it's switch off.

548
00:25:55,847 --> 00:25:56,447
Speaker 2: Yeah.

549
00:25:56,607 --> 00:25:59,567
Speaker 4: Stama told Virgin Radio that they have a strategy in place,

550
00:25:59,607 --> 00:26:02,007
Speaker 4: which is to carve out protected time for the kids.

551
00:26:02,167 --> 00:26:05,127
Speaker 4: So after six o'clock on a Friday night, he will

552
00:26:05,127 --> 00:26:06,607
Speaker 4: not do work related things.

553
00:26:07,087 --> 00:26:07,567
Speaker 3: He said.

554
00:26:07,687 --> 00:26:10,407
Speaker 4: There are, of course a few exceptions, but broadly that's

555
00:26:10,447 --> 00:26:13,847
Speaker 4: what they do. His political opponents, as well as many

556
00:26:13,887 --> 00:26:19,167
Speaker 4: opinion columnists, got very angry. One conservative politician tweeted, what

557
00:26:19,207 --> 00:26:23,487
Speaker 4: if putin attacks at six oh one pm, while others

558
00:26:23,567 --> 00:26:26,647
Speaker 4: mocked that there would be global conflict unfolding and Starmer

559
00:26:26,687 --> 00:26:29,847
Speaker 4: would be busy trying to finish his book. Grant Feller

560
00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:32,567
Speaker 4: wrote for The Independent that he doesn't believe family should

561
00:26:32,567 --> 00:26:37,207
Speaker 4: always come first and that he envies Starma's childlike naivete

562
00:26:37,607 --> 00:26:42,287
Speaker 4: in his endearing devotion to family. He writes, it's unrealistic

563
00:26:42,367 --> 00:26:44,487
Speaker 4: to think that you can suddenly shift between being a

564
00:26:44,527 --> 00:26:47,207
Speaker 4: good employer and a good parent at six pm. What

565
00:26:47,287 --> 00:26:50,247
Speaker 4: a ridiculous metaphor switching off is. If you've got a

566
00:26:50,247 --> 00:26:53,087
Speaker 4: stressful job and you love it, there is no switch.

567
00:26:53,247 --> 00:26:54,247
Speaker 4: There is no off.

568
00:26:54,967 --> 00:26:55,287
Speaker 3: Holly.

569
00:26:55,527 --> 00:26:57,767
Speaker 4: You'd think Starmer had declared that he was adopting the

570
00:26:57,807 --> 00:27:02,687
Speaker 4: four hour work week, everyone responded, rather than saying that

571
00:27:02,767 --> 00:27:05,007
Speaker 4: one day out of every seven he will look in

572
00:27:05,047 --> 00:27:07,207
Speaker 4: the direction of his children when the sun goes down.

573
00:27:07,447 --> 00:27:09,007
Speaker 3: Exactly what is this all?

574
00:27:09,687 --> 00:27:13,727
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting because there is a definite

575
00:27:13,727 --> 00:27:16,367
Speaker 2: little undercurrent there possibly not so little that could be

576
00:27:16,407 --> 00:27:20,367
Speaker 2: decided of anti Semitism. There definitely is. But even if

577
00:27:20,407 --> 00:27:23,647
Speaker 2: you take that out and set it aside, there is

578
00:27:23,727 --> 00:27:27,207
Speaker 2: a massive overreach here from the Tories who are going

579
00:27:27,247 --> 00:27:30,127
Speaker 2: to lose this election in spectacular fashion. And maybe I

580
00:27:30,167 --> 00:27:32,087
Speaker 2: will be eating my words on Friday night, but I

581
00:27:32,167 --> 00:27:35,527
Speaker 2: doubt it to find anything they can throw at Kirstarmer.

582
00:27:35,567 --> 00:27:38,887
Speaker 2: And to be clear, Kir Starmer is not actually desperately

583
00:27:38,927 --> 00:27:42,007
Speaker 2: popular like everybody's like yay Kiir Starmer, we love him.

584
00:27:42,207 --> 00:27:45,447
Speaker 2: They're just like, get those people out of office. They

585
00:27:45,487 --> 00:27:48,087
Speaker 2: have made a right mess over the fourteen years they've

586
00:27:48,087 --> 00:27:51,607
Speaker 2: been in charge, so they are showing their desperation. I

587
00:27:51,607 --> 00:27:54,087
Speaker 2: think in this so as you've said, Jesse, people are like,

588
00:27:54,127 --> 00:27:56,687
Speaker 2: what if putin attacks at six oh one people are

589
00:27:56,687 --> 00:28:00,607
Speaker 2: tweeting back who work for Keir Starmer, then he will

590
00:28:00,607 --> 00:28:01,807
Speaker 2: pick up his phone.

591
00:28:01,727 --> 00:28:04,007
Speaker 3: Jump on line, jump on line.

592
00:28:04,487 --> 00:28:07,207
Speaker 2: I think put his book down exactly. No one is

593
00:28:07,247 --> 00:28:09,687
Speaker 2: saying and not what is not being said here. And

594
00:28:09,687 --> 00:28:11,247
Speaker 2: this is the thing that's really interesting is I think

595
00:28:11,287 --> 00:28:14,287
Speaker 2: it shows a clash of culture. And I don't mean

596
00:28:14,327 --> 00:28:17,407
Speaker 2: about the religious aspect. I mean about the work at

597
00:28:17,407 --> 00:28:20,847
Speaker 2: all costs culture and any attempt at having balance, which

598
00:28:21,007 --> 00:28:23,687
Speaker 2: in the hustle culture is a dirty word that is

599
00:28:23,887 --> 00:28:28,567
Speaker 2: vastly out of touch, because most people these days understand

600
00:28:28,887 --> 00:28:31,207
Speaker 2: that probably to be a good leader, a good boss,

601
00:28:31,327 --> 00:28:33,927
Speaker 2: do a good job, maybe you need to have a

602
00:28:33,927 --> 00:28:36,327
Speaker 2: little bit of something else in your life, and that

603
00:28:36,647 --> 00:28:39,687
Speaker 2: asking for a few hours when you don't need to

604
00:28:39,727 --> 00:28:43,167
Speaker 2: be on on is not an unreasonable thing or is

605
00:28:43,207 --> 00:28:44,087
Speaker 2: it mere Friedman?

606
00:28:44,607 --> 00:28:47,447
Speaker 1: No, I think that's true. I think that ironically, when

607
00:28:47,527 --> 00:28:51,087
Speaker 1: Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister, one of the criticisms of

608
00:28:51,207 --> 00:28:55,647
Speaker 1: him by people who worked for him was that he

609
00:28:55,767 --> 00:28:58,487
Speaker 1: only slept for like four hours a night and the

610
00:28:58,527 --> 00:29:01,007
Speaker 1: rest of the time he was working. And to some

611
00:29:01,047 --> 00:29:04,047
Speaker 1: people that played and to him, because he let that

612
00:29:04,167 --> 00:29:10,047
Speaker 1: be known, that played as dedication, work ethic, high performance behavior,

613
00:29:10,607 --> 00:29:13,527
Speaker 1: whereas to others, those who are criticizing it, it was

614
00:29:13,687 --> 00:29:17,047
Speaker 1: portrayed as you don't have any perspective, like when you

615
00:29:17,167 --> 00:29:20,607
Speaker 1: don't look around. People often say this of artists, and

616
00:29:20,647 --> 00:29:22,967
Speaker 1: we'll get to tell us swift shortly. But when you're

617
00:29:22,967 --> 00:29:27,287
Speaker 1: an artist, you have to live in the world to

618
00:29:27,367 --> 00:29:29,847
Speaker 1: be able to make art. Or if you're an actor,

619
00:29:30,327 --> 00:29:33,927
Speaker 1: if you're just a famous person, then it's very hard

620
00:29:33,927 --> 00:29:37,087
Speaker 1: to play different characters because you're not exposed to them anymore.

621
00:29:37,167 --> 00:29:40,567
Speaker 2: So I think that for being a political leader, presumably

622
00:29:40,567 --> 00:29:43,087
Speaker 2: you need to understand what actual, real people who don't

623
00:29:43,087 --> 00:29:45,607
Speaker 2: live in your bubble think about things. So that's also

624
00:29:45,647 --> 00:29:47,287
Speaker 2: a reason why they need to live in the world.

625
00:29:47,127 --> 00:29:49,087
Speaker 1: A little more, right, Oh, one hundred percent. And I'm

626
00:29:49,127 --> 00:29:51,727
Speaker 1: saying that this is an argument for living in the world. Yeah,

627
00:29:51,767 --> 00:29:55,087
Speaker 1: and for switching off. It's true, no one really switches

628
00:29:55,127 --> 00:29:57,367
Speaker 1: off like we're always at the end of a phone,

629
00:29:57,367 --> 00:29:59,327
Speaker 1: aren't we. I don't think this means. I mean, in

630
00:29:59,367 --> 00:30:04,207
Speaker 1: some strict orthodox households, it's literally phones off. They don't

631
00:30:04,287 --> 00:30:07,807
Speaker 1: use technology for twenty four hours. No one suggesting that

632
00:30:07,807 --> 00:30:09,967
Speaker 1: that's what happens in his household, or that he's going

633
00:30:10,007 --> 00:30:12,647
Speaker 1: to do that, that he's going to be uncontactable after

634
00:30:13,087 --> 00:30:16,047
Speaker 1: six o'clock on a Friday. But I think that idea

635
00:30:16,127 --> 00:30:19,087
Speaker 1: of as you said so beautifully, Jesse, I'm going to

636
00:30:19,327 --> 00:30:23,967
Speaker 1: face my attention towards my family or if you don't

637
00:30:23,967 --> 00:30:26,847
Speaker 1: have a family, towards my dog, towards my parents, towards

638
00:30:26,847 --> 00:30:30,167
Speaker 1: my friends, towards my health. Yeah, whatever it happens to be,

639
00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:32,647
Speaker 1: I'm going to look away from my work and that

640
00:30:32,687 --> 00:30:34,967
Speaker 1: will actually make me better at my work when I

641
00:30:35,007 --> 00:30:35,487
Speaker 1: come back.

642
00:30:35,647 --> 00:30:37,807
Speaker 4: The book thing's funny because I don't know if the

643
00:30:37,847 --> 00:30:40,607
Speaker 4: person who said, you know, will I look up from

644
00:30:40,647 --> 00:30:43,047
Speaker 4: his book to solve a global conflict has ever spent

645
00:30:43,607 --> 00:30:45,847
Speaker 4: time with a family at six pm on a Friday.

646
00:30:45,927 --> 00:30:48,167
Speaker 4: But you would be more likely to be reading a

647
00:30:48,167 --> 00:30:51,607
Speaker 4: book skydiving than you would sitting around having family time.

648
00:30:51,647 --> 00:30:54,847
Speaker 4: There's a real sense that it's lazy, and not that

649
00:30:54,887 --> 00:30:58,087
Speaker 4: it's a different type of work or that it's an

650
00:30:58,207 --> 00:31:01,647
Speaker 4: investment that, as you say, makes you better at your job.

651
00:31:02,327 --> 00:31:04,127
Speaker 4: In this article I read in The Guardian, it was

652
00:31:04,167 --> 00:31:08,127
Speaker 4: saying that from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown, the toll

653
00:31:08,447 --> 00:31:11,567
Speaker 4: that their leadership took on them, from mood to health

654
00:31:11,647 --> 00:31:15,327
Speaker 4: to how they look was enormous. And then when you

655
00:31:15,367 --> 00:31:18,767
Speaker 4: look at the best leaders, they all had something and

656
00:31:18,887 --> 00:31:24,087
Speaker 4: mostly like they prioritized family. Winston Churchhill famously painted like

657
00:31:24,127 --> 00:31:27,567
Speaker 4: they had to have something because otherwise you become so

658
00:31:28,487 --> 00:31:32,327
Speaker 4: burnt out and tired that you're not able to function

659
00:31:32,367 --> 00:31:32,967
Speaker 4: at your job.

660
00:31:33,167 --> 00:31:35,407
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting though, and I did this too, that

661
00:31:35,527 --> 00:31:38,727
Speaker 2: all of us have defended the switch off time as

662
00:31:38,767 --> 00:31:40,607
Speaker 2: something that will make you better at your job time,

663
00:31:41,287 --> 00:31:43,807
Speaker 2: Like no one is saying and just it might make

664
00:31:43,847 --> 00:31:45,727
Speaker 2: you happier and you might be a better person. We

665
00:31:45,807 --> 00:31:52,647
Speaker 2: are all so deeply marinated in productivity culture that it's like, well,

666
00:31:52,647 --> 00:31:56,007
Speaker 2: we have to find a justification for why having a

667
00:31:56,047 --> 00:31:58,687
Speaker 2: few hours where I don't check emails might make me

668
00:31:58,967 --> 00:32:00,407
Speaker 2: better at work. Well.

669
00:32:00,527 --> 00:32:04,327
Speaker 4: Benji Marshall, who is the West Tigers NRL coach at

670
00:32:04,367 --> 00:32:07,367
Speaker 4: the moment, he's a former player. He has spoken about

671
00:32:07,367 --> 00:32:10,567
Speaker 4: this in recent months and got so much shit from

672
00:32:10,607 --> 00:32:11,687
Speaker 4: the NRL community.

673
00:32:11,807 --> 00:32:13,247
Speaker 1: He's quite a new coach, isn't he.

674
00:32:13,367 --> 00:32:15,927
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, he's just started this year and in the

675
00:32:16,007 --> 00:32:19,207
Speaker 4: lead up to his debut he said, I'm not going

676
00:32:19,287 --> 00:32:21,207
Speaker 4: to be a twenty four to seven coach and I

677
00:32:21,287 --> 00:32:24,887
Speaker 4: put my family before my job, which is something that

678
00:32:25,407 --> 00:32:27,927
Speaker 4: players coaches you never ever say that.

679
00:32:28,127 --> 00:32:30,327
Speaker 3: Here's a little bit of what he said I'll.

680
00:32:30,167 --> 00:32:32,847
Speaker 7: Come into work early before the players, work as hard

681
00:32:32,847 --> 00:32:34,847
Speaker 7: as we can until we get what we need done.

682
00:32:35,087 --> 00:32:38,247
Speaker 7: Then we go home because I prioritize my family between

683
00:32:38,287 --> 00:32:40,407
Speaker 7: five and eight pm every night to find a work

684
00:32:40,447 --> 00:32:42,647
Speaker 7: life balance. That doesn't mean I don't care about my

685
00:32:42,727 --> 00:32:43,927
Speaker 7: job or care about working hard.

686
00:32:44,207 --> 00:32:46,807
Speaker 1: I think that's an outstanding way to model what it

687
00:32:46,847 --> 00:32:48,527
Speaker 1: means to be man, what it means to be person.

688
00:32:48,647 --> 00:32:52,127
Speaker 4: So there was all this crap and coaches. There's you know,

689
00:32:52,207 --> 00:32:54,087
Speaker 4: this ideal of a coach who tries to go to

690
00:32:54,127 --> 00:32:56,527
Speaker 4: the movies but he's actually just plotting what they're going

691
00:32:56,567 --> 00:32:58,127
Speaker 4: to do on the field.

692
00:32:57,767 --> 00:32:59,207
Speaker 3: And blah blah blah.

693
00:32:59,247 --> 00:33:02,447
Speaker 4: And remember it was only less than two years ago

694
00:33:02,527 --> 00:33:05,967
Speaker 4: Paul Green, who was a Queensland coach, a NRL coach,

695
00:33:06,127 --> 00:33:08,447
Speaker 4: took his own life. I think he was about forty nine,

696
00:33:08,607 --> 00:33:11,367
Speaker 4: and there was this big discussion about mental health and

697
00:33:11,727 --> 00:33:14,007
Speaker 4: how to look after each other. And we have Benji

698
00:33:14,047 --> 00:33:16,407
Speaker 4: Marshall coming out who has two little kids as well,

699
00:33:16,447 --> 00:33:19,127
Speaker 4: so he's at a very specific moment in his life

700
00:33:19,407 --> 00:33:21,407
Speaker 4: and he's saying, between five and eight, I'm going to

701
00:33:21,447 --> 00:33:23,247
Speaker 4: be with my kids. That to buy one week. So

702
00:33:23,247 --> 00:33:24,727
Speaker 4: they had a game off and he went to Fiji

703
00:33:24,727 --> 00:33:27,207
Speaker 4: with his family. That was just laughed at, like, oh,

704
00:33:27,287 --> 00:33:30,447
Speaker 4: you're going on a holiday now, and he's saying nah,

705
00:33:30,607 --> 00:33:33,207
Speaker 4: Like I actually believe in work life balance. It's something

706
00:33:33,247 --> 00:33:34,967
Speaker 4: that I want to model. And I have a team

707
00:33:35,007 --> 00:33:38,047
Speaker 4: around me of people that I trust, so when I'm

708
00:33:38,087 --> 00:33:39,567
Speaker 4: not there, the work can get done.

709
00:33:39,687 --> 00:33:41,767
Speaker 2: See that's saw so key to this, right if you're

710
00:33:41,767 --> 00:33:43,967
Speaker 2: looking at it from a leadership level. When he says that,

711
00:33:44,207 --> 00:33:47,007
Speaker 2: he says, I've got really experienced guys on my staff.

712
00:33:47,087 --> 00:33:48,807
Speaker 2: I've got all these people I trust, and I'm going

713
00:33:48,847 --> 00:33:51,607
Speaker 2: to empower them to do their job. I don't need

714
00:33:51,647 --> 00:33:55,167
Speaker 2: to be there and across absolutely everything all the time.

715
00:33:55,727 --> 00:33:58,447
Speaker 2: That is really generous to the other people you work with.

716
00:33:59,047 --> 00:34:01,687
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because he also said that he knew

717
00:34:01,687 --> 00:34:04,007
Speaker 2: that the culture was and this certainly is not only

718
00:34:04,047 --> 00:34:06,847
Speaker 2: in sport. It had always been a good leader as

719
00:34:06,887 --> 00:34:09,207
Speaker 2: someone who says, you can't outwork me, I will work

720
00:34:09,367 --> 00:34:11,807
Speaker 2: harder than everyone here. I will be the first one

721
00:34:11,807 --> 00:34:13,447
Speaker 2: in and the last one out. I'll turn the lights

722
00:34:13,447 --> 00:34:15,687
Speaker 2: on and I'll turn the lights off. And that was

723
00:34:15,727 --> 00:34:18,607
Speaker 2: the model. And I think it's really interesting that we're

724
00:34:18,727 --> 00:34:21,607
Speaker 2: now seeing different models of success that don't look like that.

725
00:34:21,887 --> 00:34:24,647
Speaker 2: And the idea that saying that for three hours a

726
00:34:24,727 --> 00:34:27,807
Speaker 2: day between five and eight you don't want to be

727
00:34:28,367 --> 00:34:31,607
Speaker 2: working is outrageous. It just seems crazy.

728
00:34:31,727 --> 00:34:33,687
Speaker 1: I think it can be tricky as a boss or

729
00:34:33,727 --> 00:34:36,967
Speaker 1: a manager or a leader, because I've felt the pressure

730
00:34:37,087 --> 00:34:39,487
Speaker 1: in both ways. I've felt the pressure to work more

731
00:34:39,527 --> 00:34:41,767
Speaker 1: and I've felt the pressure to work less. So I

732
00:34:41,807 --> 00:34:44,567
Speaker 1: do feel that I have to role model that I'm

733
00:34:44,567 --> 00:34:46,687
Speaker 1: the co founder and co owner of this business.

734
00:34:47,287 --> 00:34:48,487
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will.

735
00:34:48,247 --> 00:34:50,687
Speaker 1: Work down hard, and I will work harder than anyone

736
00:34:50,727 --> 00:34:54,007
Speaker 1: else because I expect everybody to work hard, so that

737
00:34:54,047 --> 00:34:54,967
Speaker 1: includes myself.

738
00:34:55,007 --> 00:34:58,327
Speaker 2: But what's working hard mean is being offline between five

739
00:34:58,327 --> 00:35:01,687
Speaker 2: and eight? Not working hard? I'm in the specifics of

740
00:35:01,767 --> 00:35:04,087
Speaker 2: like what if the queen dies? I don't mean that,

741
00:35:04,407 --> 00:35:05,687
Speaker 2: I mean in general.

742
00:35:05,927 --> 00:35:07,687
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. So there have been times when I've

743
00:35:07,727 --> 00:35:10,527
Speaker 1: thought I was really conscious of what time I would

744
00:35:10,527 --> 00:35:12,247
Speaker 1: get into the office and what time I would leave.

745
00:35:12,567 --> 00:35:16,527
Speaker 1: But then you read about how bosses need to model boundaries,

746
00:35:16,727 --> 00:35:18,727
Speaker 1: and so there was all this talk a few years

747
00:35:18,727 --> 00:35:22,087
Speaker 1: ago about how bosses had to leave noisily because some people,

748
00:35:22,167 --> 00:35:24,167
Speaker 1: and I know when I've worked in jobs before, you

749
00:35:24,207 --> 00:35:26,887
Speaker 1: don't want to leave before the boss right. Certainly when

750
00:35:26,927 --> 00:35:28,727
Speaker 1: I had little kids, it felt like the walk of shame,

751
00:35:28,847 --> 00:35:30,247
Speaker 1: like you don't want to sort of sneak out, and

752
00:35:30,287 --> 00:35:32,767
Speaker 1: everyone's going, oh, she's not very committed. And in fact,

753
00:35:32,767 --> 00:35:35,487
Speaker 1: when I did work in a male dominated industry and

754
00:35:35,527 --> 00:35:39,287
Speaker 1: commercial television, I did had to have to leave to

755
00:35:39,367 --> 00:35:42,287
Speaker 1: go home and breastfeed my baby, and I would of

756
00:35:42,327 --> 00:35:45,527
Speaker 1: course jump online straight away, but after I left, it was,

757
00:35:45,687 --> 00:35:48,007
Speaker 1: you know, leaked to the media. Oh she wasn't very committed.

758
00:35:48,007 --> 00:35:51,927
Speaker 1: She wouldn't put in the hours. So it's really hard

759
00:35:52,047 --> 00:35:54,527
Speaker 1: and I feel pressure both ways. I feel pressure not

760
00:35:54,567 --> 00:35:57,087
Speaker 1: to work on weekends now a lot, because I don't

761
00:35:57,127 --> 00:36:00,367
Speaker 1: expect other people to, but for me sometimes that's the

762
00:36:00,407 --> 00:36:02,847
Speaker 1: only time I've got to do my work.

763
00:36:03,247 --> 00:36:07,927
Speaker 2: It's tricky, I reckon. I also was definitely always get there,

764
00:36:07,967 --> 00:36:11,007
Speaker 2: really leave late person, no question. For many, many, many

765
00:36:11,087 --> 00:36:14,087
Speaker 2: years it was important because those either ends of the

766
00:36:14,167 --> 00:36:17,407
Speaker 2: day were sometimes times you could get things done because

767
00:36:17,487 --> 00:36:20,767
Speaker 2: everybody else wasn't there wanting your attention, asking you questions, meetings,

768
00:36:20,807 --> 00:36:22,767
Speaker 2: meetings I need to talk to you about blah. These

769
00:36:22,807 --> 00:36:25,247
Speaker 2: hours were precious. The thing is is all that stuff

770
00:36:25,247 --> 00:36:27,247
Speaker 2: has really been thrown in the air with the fact

771
00:36:27,287 --> 00:36:29,207
Speaker 2: that we can work anywhere now, which is a really

772
00:36:29,247 --> 00:36:32,207
Speaker 2: good thing, right, Like it's life changing that you could

773
00:36:32,287 --> 00:36:34,247
Speaker 2: leave and be home to have dinner with your kids,

774
00:36:34,247 --> 00:36:36,487
Speaker 2: but then do your emails after a eight Like that

775
00:36:36,647 --> 00:36:39,047
Speaker 2: is actually life changing. And I remember work and mia

776
00:36:39,047 --> 00:36:41,047
Speaker 2: would two when that was not possible, Like when you

777
00:36:41,087 --> 00:36:44,127
Speaker 2: went home, you work couldn't work anymore, so you would

778
00:36:44,127 --> 00:36:46,607
Speaker 2: stay in the office until I had plenty of years

779
00:36:46,607 --> 00:36:48,087
Speaker 2: of work when I would be in the office at

780
00:36:48,087 --> 00:36:49,487
Speaker 2: eight nine o'clock regularly.

781
00:36:49,607 --> 00:36:52,887
Speaker 1: I used to sleep on the couch often.

782
00:36:53,127 --> 00:36:55,447
Speaker 2: Office was the only place to work. And so now

783
00:36:55,567 --> 00:36:58,607
Speaker 2: obviously you can work everywhere. That's a really good thing.

784
00:36:59,247 --> 00:37:01,447
Speaker 2: But then the flip side of it is it's a

785
00:37:01,487 --> 00:37:03,807
Speaker 2: bad thing because now if you say, well, I just

786
00:37:03,887 --> 00:37:06,887
Speaker 2: went between five and eight to not be responsive, And

787
00:37:06,887 --> 00:37:10,247
Speaker 2: the problem is is everybody's got different schedules. So if

788
00:37:10,287 --> 00:37:13,087
Speaker 2: you want between five and eight, but your boss actually

789
00:37:13,127 --> 00:37:15,767
Speaker 2: wants to message you at that time, then you're in

790
00:37:15,807 --> 00:37:18,247
Speaker 2: a real push Paul. So I don't know, I find

791
00:37:18,247 --> 00:37:20,967
Speaker 2: it hard, but I love all these different models coming

792
00:37:21,047 --> 00:37:23,327
Speaker 2: up with different ways of caring about your job.

793
00:37:23,447 --> 00:37:25,287
Speaker 4: And I love that it's men as well women. Have

794
00:37:25,327 --> 00:37:27,167
Speaker 4: been talking about this for a long time, and men

795
00:37:27,207 --> 00:37:28,727
Speaker 4: talking about it is very refreshing.

796
00:37:31,087 --> 00:37:33,847
Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We

797
00:37:34,007 --> 00:37:38,047
Speaker 1: drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and

798
00:37:38,087 --> 00:37:40,647
Speaker 1: MEA subscribers follow the link in the show notes to

799
00:37:40,647 --> 00:37:43,087
Speaker 1: get us in your ears five days a week, and

800
00:37:43,127 --> 00:37:45,607
Speaker 1: a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

801
00:37:54,007 --> 00:37:56,047
Speaker 3: In Taylor Swift News, Taylor Swift.

802
00:37:55,807 --> 00:37:57,367
Speaker 1: Taylor, Taylor Taylor.

803
00:37:57,247 --> 00:37:59,327
Speaker 3: I've been watching the Taylor Swift cutaways.

804
00:37:59,367 --> 00:38:01,767
Speaker 2: I was very excited to hear what me had thought

805
00:38:01,767 --> 00:38:02,767
Speaker 2: about Taylor Swift.

806
00:38:02,767 --> 00:38:04,367
Speaker 1: Taylor bloody Swift.

807
00:38:05,207 --> 00:38:07,887
Speaker 2: I disclaim her. On Monday, I told me she wasn't

808
00:38:07,887 --> 00:38:10,447
Speaker 2: allowed to bring this story, wasn't allowed to talk about

809
00:38:10,447 --> 00:38:11,327
Speaker 2: it because out numbered.

810
00:38:11,407 --> 00:38:12,407
Speaker 1: How tried?

811
00:38:12,567 --> 00:38:12,847
Speaker 2: You did?

812
00:38:13,207 --> 00:38:13,567
Speaker 1: You did?

813
00:38:14,167 --> 00:38:16,967
Speaker 2: It's about a column published in Newsweek, which is a

814
00:38:17,087 --> 00:38:21,367
Speaker 2: credible American news publication. Stupid cont such stupid coln. The

815
00:38:21,407 --> 00:38:23,887
Speaker 2: column was written by a writer called John mccillan. It

816
00:38:23,887 --> 00:38:26,727
Speaker 2: won't surprise anybody to know that he's a conservative commentator,

817
00:38:27,047 --> 00:38:29,527
Speaker 2: and in it he claimed that Taylor Swift, the trademark

818
00:38:29,607 --> 00:38:31,647
Speaker 2: queen of the World, is a bad role model for

819
00:38:31,727 --> 00:38:34,487
Speaker 2: young women because she is unmarried and does not have children.

820
00:38:34,647 --> 00:38:38,207
Speaker 2: Not to mention, mcgillan writes that she has had at

821
00:38:38,327 --> 00:38:42,007
Speaker 2: least a dozen a dozen relationships with men. He wrote,

822
00:38:42,727 --> 00:38:46,127
Speaker 2: this revolving door of relationships may reflect the normal dating

823
00:38:46,247 --> 00:38:49,207
Speaker 2: experiences of many young women in today's world, but it

824
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:53,767
Speaker 2: also raises questions about stability, commitment, and even love itself.

825
00:38:54,087 --> 00:38:57,007
Speaker 2: Should we encourage young girls to see the Swift standard

826
00:38:57,087 --> 00:39:00,487
Speaker 2: as the norm and something to aspire to, or should

827
00:39:00,527 --> 00:39:03,687
Speaker 2: we be promoting something a little more, shall we say, wholesome?

828
00:39:04,047 --> 00:39:07,607
Speaker 2: Would any loving parent reading this want their daughter to

829
00:39:07,807 --> 00:39:11,087
Speaker 2: date twelve different men in the span of a few years.

830
00:39:11,447 --> 00:39:13,407
Speaker 2: This is not an attack on Swift. It's a valid

831
00:39:13,487 --> 00:39:15,007
Speaker 2: question that is worth asking.

832
00:39:15,167 --> 00:39:16,247
Speaker 3: It is, though, an.

833
00:39:16,167 --> 00:39:21,087
Speaker 2: Attack ont Mia said. Mia said, we have to take

834
00:39:21,167 --> 00:39:25,407
Speaker 2: this dude down. I said, calm down, Maya. Taylor's doing great,

835
00:39:25,447 --> 00:39:27,767
Speaker 2: she doesn't need us. Let's argue about Jill Biden instead.

836
00:39:28,247 --> 00:39:30,767
Speaker 2: And then well, it just kept escalating, and out loud

837
00:39:30,807 --> 00:39:33,127
Speaker 2: has started asking us why Maya is leaving the gates

838
00:39:33,167 --> 00:39:36,527
Speaker 2: of Taylor's virtue undefended. And we had to relent. And

839
00:39:36,727 --> 00:39:39,727
Speaker 2: then something surprising happened, because when we were talking about

840
00:39:39,767 --> 00:39:41,967
Speaker 2: it today Mia discovered she does have one thing in

841
00:39:42,047 --> 00:39:45,127
Speaker 2: common with McGill, and she really really wants Taylor to

842
00:39:45,167 --> 00:39:46,327
Speaker 2: get married and have a baby.

843
00:39:46,927 --> 00:39:51,647
Speaker 1: Mia, explain yourself, Well, this was my favorite hate read

844
00:39:51,687 --> 00:39:53,687
Speaker 1: of the week. It's the gift that keeps on giving

845
00:39:53,847 --> 00:39:56,887
Speaker 1: because his main criticism of her as a role model,

846
00:39:56,967 --> 00:39:59,007
Speaker 1: and in the first few paragraphs he details all her

847
00:39:59,047 --> 00:40:02,887
Speaker 1: achievements and basically says, she's an extraordinary businesswoman. She's the

848
00:40:02,927 --> 00:40:07,007
Speaker 1: most famous woman in the world. She'sn't powerhouse, except she's

849
00:40:07,087 --> 00:40:09,967
Speaker 1: not married with kids, therefore not a good role model

850
00:40:10,127 --> 00:40:16,087
Speaker 1: for our sisters and our daughters. And I thought, look,

851
00:40:17,247 --> 00:40:20,247
Speaker 1: I do want Taylor Swift to have a baby. Because

852
00:40:22,287 --> 00:40:24,767
Speaker 1: I hate myself for thinking this. I just want her

853
00:40:24,847 --> 00:40:27,687
Speaker 1: to experience what it's like, and I think she'd be

854
00:40:27,767 --> 00:40:28,327
Speaker 1: a great mother.

855
00:40:28,527 --> 00:40:33,007
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, most I think not having a bad.

856
00:40:32,847 --> 00:40:34,127
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit that she's married or not.

857
00:40:34,287 --> 00:40:36,687
Speaker 1: Do I think being married and having a baby has

858
00:40:36,727 --> 00:40:38,647
Speaker 1: anything to do with her being a role model. No,

859
00:40:39,167 --> 00:40:42,407
Speaker 1: this is about my love for Taylor and my desire

860
00:40:42,527 --> 00:40:46,607
Speaker 1: for her to experience the full spectrum a little bit

861
00:40:46,647 --> 00:40:48,207
Speaker 1: like we spoke about before.

862
00:40:48,727 --> 00:40:49,287
Speaker 3: Of life.

863
00:40:49,687 --> 00:40:53,367
Speaker 4: She'll write some no one experience is the full spectrum

864
00:40:53,407 --> 00:40:55,047
Speaker 4: of life. I want to read because you miss out

865
00:40:55,087 --> 00:40:58,527
Speaker 4: on things kids, you miss out on certain experiences, and

866
00:40:58,647 --> 00:41:01,607
Speaker 4: everyone has a different set of incredible mind.

867
00:41:02,367 --> 00:41:05,607
Speaker 1: People listening I know who are going to say, you're

868
00:41:05,727 --> 00:41:08,687
Speaker 1: suggesting that because I don't have kids, I haven't experienced

869
00:41:08,687 --> 00:41:11,847
Speaker 1: the full spectrum. I would say that I haven't experienced

870
00:41:11,847 --> 00:41:14,767
Speaker 1: the full spectrum. I've never been with a woman, I've

871
00:41:14,927 --> 00:41:19,247
Speaker 1: never lived in a different country for a long period

872
00:41:19,287 --> 00:41:22,127
Speaker 1: of time. There's lots of the full spectrum. I also

873
00:41:22,247 --> 00:41:22,887
Speaker 1: have an experience.

874
00:41:22,887 --> 00:41:25,007
Speaker 2: I've played a stadium with that many people.

875
00:41:25,047 --> 00:41:26,407
Speaker 1: I haven't played stadium.

876
00:41:26,527 --> 00:41:29,567
Speaker 3: I can't speak another ones exactly, I can't tap dance.

877
00:41:29,807 --> 00:41:32,927
Speaker 1: There's many aspects. I haven't run onto a field to

878
00:41:33,047 --> 00:41:37,367
Speaker 1: the streams of thunderstruck. There's so many. Yet, there's so

879
00:41:37,487 --> 00:41:40,967
Speaker 1: many things that I haven't experienced. But I just think

880
00:41:41,407 --> 00:41:44,767
Speaker 1: Taylor is a seeker of experience, and I love the

881
00:41:44,887 --> 00:41:48,847
Speaker 1: things she writes about those experiences, and I genuinely I

882
00:41:48,887 --> 00:41:52,287
Speaker 1: want to hear. What Taylor's done for me and many

883
00:41:52,327 --> 00:41:55,087
Speaker 1: other people is She's helped me make sense of experiences

884
00:41:55,127 --> 00:41:58,007
Speaker 1: in my life through her music and through her lyrics.

885
00:41:58,687 --> 00:41:59,607
Speaker 3: That's why I.

886
00:41:59,647 --> 00:42:01,567
Speaker 1: Would like to hear her views.

887
00:42:01,687 --> 00:42:05,367
Speaker 4: If only you could hear someone else's views about motherhood,

888
00:42:05,447 --> 00:42:08,367
Speaker 4: of which there are many books, many songs, many poems,

889
00:42:08,447 --> 00:42:12,047
Speaker 4: many instagram that he could go to to dive deeper

890
00:42:12,327 --> 00:42:14,687
Speaker 4: into the experience of the motherhood. I think we've lost

891
00:42:14,727 --> 00:42:17,327
Speaker 4: sight of what a role model means, and I think

892
00:42:17,327 --> 00:42:19,127
Speaker 4: we know what it means anymore when someone is a

893
00:42:19,247 --> 00:42:19,767
Speaker 4: role model.

894
00:42:19,967 --> 00:42:22,127
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm not arguing that she's not a role model.

895
00:42:22,207 --> 00:42:23,327
Speaker 3: My god, this is yeah.

896
00:42:23,607 --> 00:42:27,327
Speaker 4: It's like, since when does someone who you look up

897
00:42:27,407 --> 00:42:30,207
Speaker 4: to you use them as sort of a Barbie doll

898
00:42:30,327 --> 00:42:34,047
Speaker 4: to enact the exact life choices you would make.

899
00:42:34,207 --> 00:42:36,487
Speaker 2: I was thinking about, Yes, that's why Mea wants her

900
00:42:36,527 --> 00:42:37,007
Speaker 2: to have a baby.

901
00:42:37,087 --> 00:42:39,447
Speaker 1: It was very threatening. This guy's clearly very threatened because

902
00:42:39,487 --> 00:42:41,727
Speaker 1: all the things he lists, all the criticisms of Taylor,

903
00:42:42,127 --> 00:42:44,167
Speaker 1: when he keeps saying, but they're not criticisms, but they

904
00:42:44,167 --> 00:42:47,247
Speaker 1: are because you're calling her a dirty slight, a baron whore.

905
00:42:47,567 --> 00:42:48,887
Speaker 3: Yeah, like here, and then.

906
00:42:48,767 --> 00:42:51,727
Speaker 1: He's like, no criticism of Taylor, Huh, they're all about

907
00:42:51,767 --> 00:42:55,527
Speaker 1: his greatest fears as the upholder of the patriarchy. Like

908
00:42:55,687 --> 00:42:58,407
Speaker 1: it's wild. Because he writes this, it was hard to

909
00:42:58,447 --> 00:43:01,687
Speaker 1: find my favorite parts. But he says that her numerous

910
00:43:01,727 --> 00:43:04,527
Speaker 1: high profile relationships while private matters are constantly in the

911
00:43:04,567 --> 00:43:09,127
Speaker 1: public eye. New romances become media feeding frenzies, while breakups

912
00:43:09,247 --> 00:43:11,167
Speaker 1: fuel the gossip columns. Her fault.

913
00:43:11,207 --> 00:43:14,207
Speaker 3: That's because of you, Sweetish, And then he says that she.

914
00:43:14,407 --> 00:43:22,407
Speaker 1: Makes breakups look easy in reality, though painful affairs poets department.

915
00:43:22,527 --> 00:43:24,527
Speaker 1: Have you listened to all two women?

916
00:43:24,647 --> 00:43:27,127
Speaker 4: Then he suggests that breakups are only hurtful to women,

917
00:43:27,207 --> 00:43:27,527
Speaker 4: which is.

918
00:43:27,727 --> 00:43:30,967
Speaker 1: Very you know about Jake Gillen home holding a lot

919
00:43:31,047 --> 00:43:33,327
Speaker 1: of questions about, like I have a lot of questions

920
00:43:33,327 --> 00:43:35,567
Speaker 1: about all One of them is about how this article

921
00:43:35,607 --> 00:43:37,647
Speaker 1: got published because it's not even very good and it

922
00:43:37,727 --> 00:43:40,567
Speaker 1: feels like it has done its job, and that it will.

923
00:43:40,407 --> 00:43:43,447
Speaker 2: Have absolutely trafficked through the roof because everybody's gone on

924
00:43:43,567 --> 00:43:46,247
Speaker 2: to hate read it. And he probably was someone who said,

925
00:43:46,287 --> 00:43:49,127
Speaker 2: you know what, I'll take one for circulation this week,

926
00:43:49,207 --> 00:43:51,687
Speaker 2: and I can take the haters, because anyone who writes

927
00:43:51,727 --> 00:43:54,327
Speaker 2: this kind of shit about Taylor is right now literally

928
00:43:54,447 --> 00:43:59,567
Speaker 2: under a mountain of crap. Personally, Taylor's serial monogamy is

929
00:43:59,607 --> 00:44:01,687
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things about her, and I will

930
00:44:01,807 --> 00:44:04,807
Speaker 2: genuinely be disappointed if she gets married and has a baby.

931
00:44:05,447 --> 00:44:08,567
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, no, Taylor, give us a different role model.

932
00:44:08,647 --> 00:44:12,047
Speaker 2: Like that's one of the I love about her. Some

933
00:44:12,287 --> 00:44:16,127
Speaker 2: stereotypes and archetypes. She very much uphold being a beautiful, skinny,

934
00:44:16,207 --> 00:44:18,047
Speaker 2: tall white lady and all the rest of it. But

935
00:44:18,687 --> 00:44:24,047
Speaker 2: she has overturned so many archetypes about what female artists

936
00:44:24,247 --> 00:44:27,167
Speaker 2: are capable of, can do, and all that stuff. How

937
00:44:27,447 --> 00:44:29,727
Speaker 2: And I also love the fact that she is very

938
00:44:29,767 --> 00:44:31,567
Speaker 2: I mean, and she is not public, let's be honest.

939
00:44:31,687 --> 00:44:34,367
Speaker 2: Apart from this latest relationship, She's not actually public about

940
00:44:34,367 --> 00:44:37,367
Speaker 2: her relationships, but we are all obsessed with them. And

941
00:44:37,487 --> 00:44:39,607
Speaker 2: the fact that she has dated quite a few dudes,

942
00:44:39,847 --> 00:44:42,687
Speaker 2: different kinds of dudes, experience lots of different relationships. I

943
00:44:42,807 --> 00:44:45,007
Speaker 2: love that about her because that's the experience of lots

944
00:44:45,047 --> 00:44:45,767
Speaker 2: and lots of women.

945
00:44:46,087 --> 00:44:49,487
Speaker 1: My favorite point that he makes is this The SuperStar's

946
00:44:49,567 --> 00:44:53,327
Speaker 1: vocal criticisms of the patriarchy add another layer of complexity.

947
00:44:53,767 --> 00:44:58,087
Speaker 1: Swift's recent rally and cry against patriarchal structures. She does

948
00:44:58,127 --> 00:45:00,047
Speaker 1: say fuck the patriarch in one of her songs, quite

949
00:45:00,087 --> 00:45:03,447
Speaker 1: famously stands in stark contrast to her personal dating choices.

950
00:45:03,727 --> 00:45:07,447
Speaker 1: The singer often dates strong influential men, celebrities who embody

951
00:45:07,487 --> 00:45:11,927
Speaker 1: significant social and economic power. This can appear hypocritical. Swift

952
00:45:12,007 --> 00:45:15,047
Speaker 1: either doesn't realize this or doesn't care. Neither of the

953
00:45:15,127 --> 00:45:17,647
Speaker 1: two is a good look. I don't think he understands

954
00:45:17,687 --> 00:45:21,527
Speaker 1: about powers than any of these.

955
00:45:21,687 --> 00:45:25,447
Speaker 4: He thinks that patriarchy looks and is Travis Kelcey and

956
00:45:25,567 --> 00:45:26,647
Speaker 4: that's not right.

957
00:45:27,127 --> 00:45:29,327
Speaker 2: Yeah, And my least favorite thing about the whole Travis

958
00:45:29,447 --> 00:45:32,407
Speaker 2: Kelcey narrative is the whole She's finally found her prince.

959
00:45:32,527 --> 00:45:34,207
Speaker 2: I can't wait for the ring on the finger and

960
00:45:34,287 --> 00:45:36,367
Speaker 2: the baby and the belly. I'm like, I don't want

961
00:45:36,407 --> 00:45:38,007
Speaker 2: that to keep being awesome.

962
00:45:38,247 --> 00:45:40,007
Speaker 3: There was a day why the.

963
00:45:40,087 --> 00:45:41,327
Speaker 1: Two mutually exclusive.

964
00:45:41,847 --> 00:45:42,167
Speaker 3: They're not.

965
00:45:42,327 --> 00:45:44,887
Speaker 2: That's just one of them is very predictable, and it's

966
00:45:45,087 --> 00:45:47,727
Speaker 2: very full narrative because once she does get married and

967
00:45:47,807 --> 00:45:49,807
Speaker 2: have a baby, all of the idea will be like

968
00:45:49,927 --> 00:45:52,567
Speaker 2: she'd achieved all these great things, but motherhood's her greatest

969
00:45:52,647 --> 00:45:52,967
Speaker 2: role yet.

970
00:45:53,007 --> 00:45:54,647
Speaker 1: And I could just do you mean, like how we

971
00:45:54,727 --> 00:45:56,967
Speaker 1: all felt at the end of Sex and the City,

972
00:45:57,007 --> 00:46:00,327
Speaker 1: the TV show when they all were paired up, remember that,

973
00:46:00,487 --> 00:46:03,247
Speaker 1: and everybody was a bit like Oh, well, that's not

974
00:46:03,407 --> 00:46:06,727
Speaker 1: really what we wanted, that idea of everyone being happily

975
00:46:06,767 --> 00:46:07,807
Speaker 1: ever after with a partner.

976
00:46:08,127 --> 00:46:11,087
Speaker 4: I remember about maybe six years ago, I came into

977
00:46:11,127 --> 00:46:12,967
Speaker 4: work and I thought, I want to go viral today,

978
00:46:13,007 --> 00:46:16,687
Speaker 4: and I wrote an opinion I didn't believe and it

979
00:46:16,847 --> 00:46:18,767
Speaker 4: didn't even do what I wanted it to. But it

980
00:46:18,887 --> 00:46:22,607
Speaker 4: was like I knew what the features of a viral

981
00:46:22,727 --> 00:46:25,807
Speaker 4: opinion would be. That's what this man has done. He

982
00:46:25,927 --> 00:46:26,927
Speaker 4: doesn't believe this.

983
00:46:27,447 --> 00:46:28,887
Speaker 1: It is very no I think he does.

984
00:46:29,007 --> 00:46:30,207
Speaker 3: I'm doing year eight debating.

985
00:46:30,207 --> 00:46:31,287
Speaker 2: It wasn't very convincing.

986
00:46:31,487 --> 00:46:32,927
Speaker 3: It was a year eight debating.

987
00:46:32,727 --> 00:46:37,207
Speaker 4: Argument and a card that said, argue that Taylor Swift

988
00:46:37,327 --> 00:46:39,967
Speaker 4: bad role model? And he was like she bad role model?

989
00:46:40,047 --> 00:46:44,287
Speaker 1: Because you know, I think he like he can't be honest.

990
00:46:44,407 --> 00:46:46,727
Speaker 1: He wouldn't have the self reflection or self awareness to

991
00:46:46,887 --> 00:46:49,927
Speaker 1: say I think she's a bad role model. Because what's

992
00:46:49,967 --> 00:46:52,367
Speaker 1: going to happen if all of the women decide they

993
00:46:52,407 --> 00:46:53,167
Speaker 1: don't need men.

994
00:46:53,287 --> 00:46:55,847
Speaker 3: And the irony, Oh no, where does that leave me?

995
00:46:56,287 --> 00:46:59,647
Speaker 4: Liam Hemsworth, Dev Patel thirty four year old men who

996
00:46:59,847 --> 00:47:02,287
Speaker 4: don't have kids. You wont talk about Leonardo DiCaprio. He's

997
00:47:02,367 --> 00:47:04,287
Speaker 4: never been married and he's never had kids and he's

998
00:47:04,367 --> 00:47:05,487
Speaker 4: nearly fifty And what about that?

999
00:47:05,567 --> 00:47:06,967
Speaker 2: Travis kelcey, Oh.

1000
00:47:06,927 --> 00:47:09,567
Speaker 4: Travis Kelsey, and also how about Elon Musk to talk

1001
00:47:09,607 --> 00:47:13,247
Speaker 4: about a bad role model twelve kids, sleeps on another

1002
00:47:13,327 --> 00:47:16,567
Speaker 4: one of X headquarters and doesn't appear to have a

1003
00:47:16,607 --> 00:47:18,927
Speaker 4: whole lot to do with any of them. But when

1004
00:47:18,967 --> 00:47:21,407
Speaker 4: it comes to men, we're able to pick and choose

1005
00:47:21,607 --> 00:47:24,767
Speaker 4: bits of their lives that we admire, and then the

1006
00:47:24,887 --> 00:47:27,807
Speaker 4: family thing we can just kind of feels a bit irrelevant.

1007
00:47:27,887 --> 00:47:30,967
Speaker 4: But for women, it's like their personal choices are part

1008
00:47:30,967 --> 00:47:32,407
Speaker 4: of whether they're a role model.

1009
00:47:32,407 --> 00:47:33,967
Speaker 1: Wouldn't want to be these guys, what do we do?

1010
00:47:34,407 --> 00:47:36,607
Speaker 2: That is it for today? Thank you so much to

1011
00:47:36,687 --> 00:47:39,127
Speaker 2: our wonderful team for making this episode happen, and thank

1012
00:47:39,167 --> 00:47:42,967
Speaker 2: you out louders for listening to us today arguing about

1013
00:47:43,087 --> 00:47:44,967
Speaker 2: things as we have been doing all week.

1014
00:47:45,087 --> 00:47:47,447
Speaker 1: If you want to listen to the episode everyone's talking

1015
00:47:47,447 --> 00:47:51,687
Speaker 1: about where we really go toe to toe, bare knuckle

1016
00:47:52,447 --> 00:47:55,327
Speaker 1: binfire about Jill Biden. We will put a link in

1017
00:47:55,327 --> 00:47:57,007
Speaker 1: the show notes in case you missed that one. I

1018
00:47:57,047 --> 00:47:59,487
Speaker 1: think that's now going in our cannon as one of

1019
00:47:59,567 --> 00:48:00,487
Speaker 1: our greatest hits.

1020
00:48:00,647 --> 00:48:02,847
Speaker 2: It was really fun argument.

1021
00:48:03,007 --> 00:48:05,247
Speaker 4: Can you let us know in the out Louders Facebook group.

1022
00:48:05,327 --> 00:48:07,247
Speaker 4: We want to know where you sit on Jill Biden

1023
00:48:07,287 --> 00:48:09,207
Speaker 4: because Colly and I just think me as well.

1024
00:48:10,767 --> 00:48:15,407
Speaker 2: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.

1025
00:48:15,527 --> 00:48:17,887
Speaker 2: If you love the show and you want to support us,

1026
00:48:18,207 --> 00:48:20,847
Speaker 2: subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to

1027
00:48:20,967 --> 00:48:23,287
Speaker 2: do it. There's a link in the episode description