1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,909 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:17,869 Speaker 2: Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 3 00:00:17,949 --> 00:00:20,589 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello. 4 00:00:20,749 --> 00:00:23,269 Speaker 3: I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia and 5 00:00:23,269 --> 00:00:26,149 Speaker 3: I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, Parenting 6 00:00:26,149 --> 00:00:29,229 Speaker 3: out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening with 7 00:00:29,309 --> 00:00:33,069 Speaker 3: a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents actually want. 8 00:00:33,509 --> 00:00:36,709 Speaker 3: This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes right here 9 00:00:36,709 --> 00:00:40,309 Speaker 3: into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. And 10 00:00:40,349 --> 00:00:42,429 Speaker 3: if you're looking for more to listen to, every Muma 11 00:00:42,509 --> 00:00:45,669 Speaker 3: Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across the network, 12 00:00:45,869 --> 00:00:49,749 Speaker 3: from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. There's something 13 00:00:49,749 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 3: for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:58,309 --> 00:01:01,469 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to our limited series of Parenting out Loud. 15 00:01:01,589 --> 00:01:04,909 Speaker 2: I am Jesse Stevens and I am joined by Milia Lester. 16 00:01:05,389 --> 00:01:07,349 Speaker 2: You can say hello, Am, you're alad to say hello, 17 00:01:07,789 --> 00:01:11,509 Speaker 2: ho Jay, how are you good? And we're here to 18 00:01:11,589 --> 00:01:14,269 Speaker 2: talk about some of the stories that dominated the week, 19 00:01:14,469 --> 00:01:17,269 Speaker 2: because if parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it. 20 00:01:17,909 --> 00:01:19,229 Speaker 3: And today we. 21 00:01:19,269 --> 00:01:22,509 Speaker 2: Also have a very special third co host. It is 22 00:01:22,589 --> 00:01:26,629 Speaker 2: Mum and MIA's deputy editor. Welcome to Stacey Hicks. 23 00:01:26,709 --> 00:01:29,229 Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for scooching over for me. 24 00:01:29,629 --> 00:01:31,069 Speaker 2: Please tell us a bit about yourself. 25 00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:33,789 Speaker 1: This question is my nightmare. Thank you so much for us. 26 00:01:33,869 --> 00:01:36,029 Speaker 2: That is so fine. I wanted to leave it as 27 00:01:36,069 --> 00:01:38,309 Speaker 2: open ended as possible so that you'd lose sleapeover. 28 00:01:38,549 --> 00:01:40,149 Speaker 3: Yes, I feel like all I do is scroll on 29 00:01:40,189 --> 00:01:43,269 Speaker 3: TikTok in bed, so that is not very interesting. I'm 30 00:01:43,269 --> 00:01:45,869 Speaker 3: the writer of many words on Muma Mia that you 31 00:01:45,909 --> 00:01:48,269 Speaker 3: might have seen on the website. I'm the drinker of 32 00:01:48,389 --> 00:01:53,349 Speaker 3: copious amounts of tea and margaritas, witch tea and spicy 33 00:01:53,349 --> 00:01:57,389 Speaker 3: irregular marks, oh English breakfast tea, milk sugar, depending on 34 00:01:57,429 --> 00:01:58,109 Speaker 3: the time of day. 35 00:01:58,149 --> 00:02:00,669 Speaker 1: You're not a Barbarian and I'm a regular mar girl. 36 00:02:00,989 --> 00:02:01,509 Speaker 1: Very basic. 37 00:02:02,309 --> 00:02:06,989 Speaker 3: Do you know I've started putting jalapenos in my soblank Oh, yes, 38 00:02:07,229 --> 00:02:07,829 Speaker 3: it's true. 39 00:02:07,909 --> 00:02:09,869 Speaker 1: It's happening, Sadie. 40 00:02:09,549 --> 00:02:13,869 Speaker 2: Be early recommendation from Amelia today. And Stacey, do you 41 00:02:13,869 --> 00:02:14,349 Speaker 2: have a kid? 42 00:02:14,589 --> 00:02:17,509 Speaker 3: I do. It would be a bit weird if I 43 00:02:17,549 --> 00:02:20,789 Speaker 3: didn't throwing my opinions around. I am one and done, 44 00:02:20,869 --> 00:02:22,949 Speaker 3: so I've had one child. I got it right, I'm 45 00:02:22,989 --> 00:02:24,989 Speaker 3: stopping so cleverly We're done. 46 00:02:25,109 --> 00:02:27,309 Speaker 2: I have affected the process you went This one is 47 00:02:27,389 --> 00:02:29,709 Speaker 2: ten out of ten. Let's not tempt fate. 48 00:02:29,829 --> 00:02:32,669 Speaker 1: Or let's just never do that roller coaster again? Did 49 00:02:32,749 --> 00:02:33,869 Speaker 1: you have a way you want to look at it? 50 00:02:34,029 --> 00:02:35,189 Speaker 2: How old is the little one? 51 00:02:35,269 --> 00:02:36,789 Speaker 1: She is four years old. I have a four year 52 00:02:36,829 --> 00:02:37,429 Speaker 1: old little girl. 53 00:02:37,589 --> 00:02:42,309 Speaker 2: On today's show do Kids Ruin Friendships? We discussed two 54 00:02:42,349 --> 00:02:45,229 Speaker 2: fiery essays about what happens to friendship in the wake 55 00:02:45,269 --> 00:02:50,309 Speaker 2: of children and the return of the landline signals nostalgia 56 00:02:50,429 --> 00:02:53,589 Speaker 2: for childhood. We might never be able to recreate. So 57 00:02:53,669 --> 00:02:56,549 Speaker 2: what is kid rotting and could it be the answer? 58 00:02:57,069 --> 00:03:01,309 Speaker 2: Plus children's YouTube star Miss Rachel express support for the 59 00:03:01,389 --> 00:03:03,949 Speaker 2: children of Gaza and now she's had to disable comments 60 00:03:03,989 --> 00:03:07,549 Speaker 2: on Instagram and YouTube. We explain what happened and the 61 00:03:07,589 --> 00:03:13,549 Speaker 2: parasocial relationships we have kids entertainers. But first, in case 62 00:03:13,589 --> 00:03:16,229 Speaker 2: you missed it, a number of unnamed women have confessed 63 00:03:16,229 --> 00:03:17,989 Speaker 2: to making up they have kids in order to get 64 00:03:18,029 --> 00:03:20,989 Speaker 2: flexibility at work. And I want your initial reactions now, please. 65 00:03:21,349 --> 00:03:25,389 Speaker 3: I think it's genius. Really yeah, because before I had kids, 66 00:03:25,469 --> 00:03:28,469 Speaker 3: I would always see these women leaving work early to 67 00:03:28,509 --> 00:03:31,229 Speaker 3: go and pick up so called children from so called school, 68 00:03:31,469 --> 00:03:35,789 Speaker 3: and I would be consumed with anger and jealousy. How 69 00:03:35,789 --> 00:03:40,149 Speaker 3: about you, Stacy equally think it's genius. But they have 70 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,149 Speaker 3: forgotten something very important, the guilt that comes along with 71 00:03:43,229 --> 00:03:46,269 Speaker 3: leaving early. So once you have a child and you 72 00:03:46,389 --> 00:03:48,949 Speaker 3: have to duck out an hour early, they're not thinking 73 00:03:48,989 --> 00:03:50,629 Speaker 3: about the fact that you then make up for that 74 00:03:50,709 --> 00:03:51,749 Speaker 3: tenfold afterwards. 75 00:03:51,789 --> 00:03:53,469 Speaker 1: To prove the order, we're sending. 76 00:03:53,149 --> 00:03:55,829 Speaker 3: A lot of like sort of overly diligent emails to 77 00:03:55,869 --> 00:03:57,149 Speaker 3: your boss at nine pm. 78 00:03:57,269 --> 00:04:00,069 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, that's the part I resent. So one 79 00:04:00,109 --> 00:04:02,709 Speaker 2: woman told MoMA Maya that she lied to her boss 80 00:04:03,069 --> 00:04:05,869 Speaker 2: with a story about her daughter experiencing a health emergency 81 00:04:05,909 --> 00:04:08,109 Speaker 2: and she needed to leave. In reality, it was her 82 00:04:08,149 --> 00:04:11,109 Speaker 2: cat and it really was an emergency. And I guess 83 00:04:11,149 --> 00:04:13,989 Speaker 2: that all depends on your definition of child exactly. That 84 00:04:14,029 --> 00:04:17,269 Speaker 2: definition includes male cat doesn't for me. But I'm slightly 85 00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:20,549 Speaker 2: horrified by this story. Even though I know there's lots 86 00:04:20,589 --> 00:04:25,709 Speaker 2: of research, a health emergency of a child is really serious. 87 00:04:25,909 --> 00:04:28,069 Speaker 2: It's really serious and scary for parent. And that is 88 00:04:28,149 --> 00:04:31,549 Speaker 2: not to undermine the horror of having a sick cat. 89 00:04:31,829 --> 00:04:35,149 Speaker 2: But your workplace should respect a sick cat. You should 90 00:04:35,149 --> 00:04:38,229 Speaker 2: be able to acknowledge I've got a sick cat. I 91 00:04:38,269 --> 00:04:41,469 Speaker 2: need to leave. There's cararas leave that exists. But I 92 00:04:41,509 --> 00:04:44,829 Speaker 2: think to suggest, and I saw some of this research 93 00:04:44,869 --> 00:04:47,509 Speaker 2: and some of the rhetoric around this that said women, 94 00:04:47,589 --> 00:04:52,309 Speaker 2: particularly without kids, pick up the slack of working mothers. 95 00:04:52,749 --> 00:04:56,029 Speaker 2: And I resent that so deeply because I know about 96 00:04:56,029 --> 00:04:58,749 Speaker 2: you too. But are we seeing much slack from working mothers. 97 00:04:59,669 --> 00:05:01,229 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to confess to it here. 98 00:05:01,709 --> 00:05:07,629 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm never slacking. No, we're definitely not slacking. But 99 00:05:08,389 --> 00:05:10,989 Speaker 3: I do think that we take it more seriously when 100 00:05:10,989 --> 00:05:14,149 Speaker 3: it's a kid. Like if someone's kid had an emergency, 101 00:05:14,269 --> 00:05:16,189 Speaker 3: I probably would send them a message that night and 102 00:05:16,229 --> 00:05:17,589 Speaker 3: say hope Aul is okay. 103 00:05:17,989 --> 00:05:19,669 Speaker 1: If it was a cat, I would not. 104 00:05:20,029 --> 00:05:22,429 Speaker 2: And I think that that's the right reaction. 105 00:05:22,949 --> 00:05:24,829 Speaker 1: Good good, I'm allergic to cats. 106 00:05:24,829 --> 00:05:28,989 Speaker 3: In my defense, I cannot do kids ruin friendships. That's 107 00:05:28,989 --> 00:05:31,629 Speaker 3: the real reason I barge my way into the studio today. 108 00:05:32,029 --> 00:05:33,069 Speaker 2: You're lonely and desperate. 109 00:05:33,149 --> 00:05:35,589 Speaker 3: Yes, I needed to talk about it with my favorite 110 00:05:35,629 --> 00:05:38,429 Speaker 3: women because I read an article on this very topic 111 00:05:38,469 --> 00:05:41,149 Speaker 3: and I cannot stop thinking about it. So in a 112 00:05:41,149 --> 00:05:44,269 Speaker 3: substack called in pursuit of clean countertops, which is a 113 00:05:44,269 --> 00:05:47,509 Speaker 3: great name by Sarah Peterson. She spoke about how after 114 00:05:47,549 --> 00:05:50,429 Speaker 3: she gave birth, trying to care about anything other than 115 00:05:50,429 --> 00:05:53,349 Speaker 3: her baby's Pooh color and sleep schedule was a kin 116 00:05:53,429 --> 00:05:57,029 Speaker 3: to having phantom limb syndrome. So she said she tried 117 00:05:57,069 --> 00:05:59,909 Speaker 3: to care but just didn't really, So instead of wanting 118 00:05:59,949 --> 00:06:02,189 Speaker 3: to do these gossip sessions with her child free friends, 119 00:06:02,509 --> 00:06:05,189 Speaker 3: she was craving more time with the mothers who were 120 00:06:05,189 --> 00:06:08,749 Speaker 3: experiencing the same thing as her. And the same sentiment 121 00:06:08,829 --> 00:06:10,789 Speaker 3: was echoed in a piece in the Cut where the 122 00:06:10,829 --> 00:06:15,949 Speaker 3: writer Alison P. Davis called children tiny little detonators, which 123 00:06:15,989 --> 00:06:19,029 Speaker 3: they very much are, saying nothing represents a threat to 124 00:06:19,069 --> 00:06:22,709 Speaker 3: friendship more than parenthood. So does motherhood actually ruin our 125 00:06:22,709 --> 00:06:26,069 Speaker 3: friendships or just change the DNA of them a little bit? Well, 126 00:06:26,109 --> 00:06:28,789 Speaker 3: in my experience, they do ruin friendships a little bit. 127 00:06:29,029 --> 00:06:31,069 Speaker 3: I've been on both sides of this equation. I had 128 00:06:31,189 --> 00:06:35,189 Speaker 3: children fairly laid in the piece, and before I had them, 129 00:06:35,309 --> 00:06:37,789 Speaker 3: I felt a lot of rage. I guess this is 130 00:06:37,829 --> 00:06:40,469 Speaker 3: a thread through my remarks today. I've felt a lot 131 00:06:40,469 --> 00:06:42,709 Speaker 3: of rage towards friends who had kids before I did. 132 00:06:42,949 --> 00:06:45,549 Speaker 3: I could tell that they were not inviting me to 133 00:06:45,589 --> 00:06:47,349 Speaker 3: birthday parties, which I didn't want to go to, but 134 00:06:47,389 --> 00:06:49,949 Speaker 3: nonetheless wanted the invitation for. I could tell that they 135 00:06:49,949 --> 00:06:52,669 Speaker 3: were getting together on side group chats to talk about 136 00:06:53,069 --> 00:06:56,389 Speaker 3: nappies and toilet training and things I didn't understand, and 137 00:06:56,469 --> 00:06:59,469 Speaker 3: I desperately wanted to be involved, and I couldn't understand 138 00:06:59,469 --> 00:07:00,629 Speaker 3: why they weren't involving me. 139 00:07:01,269 --> 00:07:02,189 Speaker 1: Now that I'm on the. 140 00:07:02,149 --> 00:07:04,749 Speaker 3: Other side of that equation, I've realized that a big 141 00:07:04,789 --> 00:07:07,789 Speaker 3: time suck once you have children is that you do 142 00:07:08,109 --> 00:07:10,749 Speaker 3: have to make friends, not just because because you need 143 00:07:10,789 --> 00:07:13,829 Speaker 3: the fellow feeling and the sympathy of having friends who 144 00:07:13,829 --> 00:07:16,349 Speaker 3: will also have kids, but also we live in such 145 00:07:16,389 --> 00:07:19,349 Speaker 3: an isolated society now, and parenting is just put on 146 00:07:19,389 --> 00:07:22,469 Speaker 3: to the parents rather than the community. And I need 147 00:07:22,629 --> 00:07:24,989 Speaker 3: mum friends who I can lean on if I can't 148 00:07:25,029 --> 00:07:27,069 Speaker 3: pick the kid up from school at the right time, 149 00:07:27,269 --> 00:07:30,029 Speaker 3: or if I have a really important question about something 150 00:07:30,069 --> 00:07:32,189 Speaker 3: that Google is not going to answer for me without 151 00:07:32,189 --> 00:07:35,629 Speaker 3: a sort of anxiety spiral. I need those friends who 152 00:07:35,829 --> 00:07:38,749 Speaker 3: I can call on and lean on in moments of 153 00:07:38,789 --> 00:07:41,549 Speaker 3: crisis with my kids. So now I guess I understand 154 00:07:41,589 --> 00:07:44,349 Speaker 3: given that time is limited. Once you do have kids, 155 00:07:44,429 --> 00:07:46,669 Speaker 3: you do have to reserve a certain amount of time 156 00:07:46,709 --> 00:07:48,349 Speaker 3: for making those new friends. 157 00:07:48,589 --> 00:07:51,189 Speaker 2: So do you think that it's just about the equation 158 00:07:51,469 --> 00:07:54,989 Speaker 2: that we all have finite time and energy. Whether it's 159 00:07:55,069 --> 00:07:58,069 Speaker 2: you've got one child or you've got four children, you 160 00:07:58,149 --> 00:08:02,989 Speaker 2: suddenly have this person that needs all of your attention 161 00:08:03,109 --> 00:08:05,549 Speaker 2: or as much as you can give them, and then 162 00:08:05,589 --> 00:08:08,109 Speaker 2: you've got to make parent friends, which is true, whether 163 00:08:08,149 --> 00:08:11,109 Speaker 2: it's starting with mother's group and then at school and whatever. 164 00:08:12,029 --> 00:08:13,869 Speaker 2: Is it just that Is it just that there's not 165 00:08:14,029 --> 00:08:15,949 Speaker 2: as much time, or do you think that it's also 166 00:08:15,989 --> 00:08:18,229 Speaker 2: that you don't relate in the same way, Stacy? 167 00:08:18,309 --> 00:08:21,429 Speaker 3: Have you lost friends since you had your I think 168 00:08:21,709 --> 00:08:24,509 Speaker 3: mine I didn't lose friends completely, but I think mine 169 00:08:24,549 --> 00:08:27,789 Speaker 3: went into a state of flux. So you added so 170 00:08:27,869 --> 00:08:31,029 Speaker 3: many more people in that it just felt like you 171 00:08:31,109 --> 00:08:33,509 Speaker 3: couldn't give time to the ones that were already there. 172 00:08:34,109 --> 00:08:36,469 Speaker 3: And I also think, as you said before, once I 173 00:08:36,549 --> 00:08:38,629 Speaker 3: was on the other side, I kind of went on 174 00:08:38,629 --> 00:08:40,909 Speaker 3: this apology tour with all of my friends that had 175 00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:43,749 Speaker 3: had children before me, saying I get it now, like 176 00:08:43,829 --> 00:08:45,549 Speaker 3: I get why you did this, I get why you 177 00:08:45,629 --> 00:08:48,749 Speaker 3: retreated from me because I wasn't supporting you in the 178 00:08:48,789 --> 00:08:50,829 Speaker 3: way that I now need from you. 179 00:08:50,749 --> 00:08:52,989 Speaker 2: Which you can't eat. I'm sorry, but you just simply 180 00:08:52,989 --> 00:08:53,709 Speaker 2: can't understand. 181 00:08:54,189 --> 00:08:55,989 Speaker 3: And all my friends were very gracious in that way 182 00:08:56,029 --> 00:08:57,949 Speaker 3: and saying you just didn't get it. You didn't know 183 00:08:57,989 --> 00:09:00,109 Speaker 3: that showing up with a teddy bear was not very 184 00:09:00,229 --> 00:09:02,549 Speaker 3: useful to me, and that it would have been better 185 00:09:02,669 --> 00:09:05,429 Speaker 3: if you'd stacked the dishwasher and not sat on my 186 00:09:05,509 --> 00:09:08,029 Speaker 3: lounge with me for two hours. I have literally never 187 00:09:08,069 --> 00:09:10,589 Speaker 3: stacked a friend's dishwasher. I need to go on this 188 00:09:10,629 --> 00:09:11,389 Speaker 3: apology to it. 189 00:09:11,469 --> 00:09:12,109 Speaker 1: I do well. 190 00:09:12,109 --> 00:09:14,469 Speaker 3: Once I did that, I've been a great mum friend 191 00:09:14,549 --> 00:09:16,749 Speaker 3: to all my friends that have come after me with children, 192 00:09:17,029 --> 00:09:19,789 Speaker 3: but the ones before, thank god, they were kind about it. 193 00:09:19,869 --> 00:09:22,989 Speaker 3: But I think it's because that happens with every single friend. 194 00:09:23,029 --> 00:09:25,389 Speaker 3: You're in a line of the order, and you've got 195 00:09:25,429 --> 00:09:27,269 Speaker 3: to pay it forward to the ones behind you. 196 00:09:27,629 --> 00:09:27,909 Speaker 1: See. 197 00:09:27,949 --> 00:09:31,309 Speaker 2: I kind of reject this. I don't think that kids 198 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:35,229 Speaker 2: ruined friendships, and I think accepting that can make us 199 00:09:35,229 --> 00:09:37,269 Speaker 2: all a bit lazy. It can make the people who 200 00:09:37,429 --> 00:09:38,989 Speaker 2: have either chosen not to have kids or don't have 201 00:09:39,029 --> 00:09:40,789 Speaker 2: them yet think they don't want to hang out with me. 202 00:09:40,829 --> 00:09:42,829 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of assumptions going both ways 203 00:09:43,149 --> 00:09:45,829 Speaker 2: that aren't necessarily true. Because when I was in my 204 00:09:45,909 --> 00:09:50,109 Speaker 2: twenties and my friend wanted to go clubbing, I most 205 00:09:50,149 --> 00:09:52,589 Speaker 2: of the time didn't want to go clubbing, but I 206 00:09:52,669 --> 00:09:55,389 Speaker 2: went clubbing because I was like, I just want to 207 00:09:55,389 --> 00:09:57,869 Speaker 2: hang out with you wherever you are. I would go 208 00:09:58,149 --> 00:10:00,869 Speaker 2: and watch their basketball, they'd come watch my netball. We 209 00:10:00,909 --> 00:10:03,669 Speaker 2: went through a stage where we take turns going and 210 00:10:03,709 --> 00:10:05,589 Speaker 2: picking each other up just because we just got our 211 00:10:05,909 --> 00:10:10,229 Speaker 2: license right. And so it's never about what you're actually do. 212 00:10:10,429 --> 00:10:12,429 Speaker 2: It's more about the time you're spending together. And in 213 00:10:12,469 --> 00:10:14,909 Speaker 2: both of these articles, they were sort of saying, if 214 00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:17,109 Speaker 2: I don't have kids, I don't want to spend time 215 00:10:17,149 --> 00:10:18,789 Speaker 2: in a park I don't want to spend time at 216 00:10:18,829 --> 00:10:22,029 Speaker 2: your house with Louie on in the background. And I 217 00:10:22,109 --> 00:10:25,029 Speaker 2: kind of reject that. I think that if you want 218 00:10:25,029 --> 00:10:28,309 Speaker 2: to spend time with someone, then you do it on 219 00:10:28,749 --> 00:10:32,229 Speaker 2: each of your terms to varying degrees, and you can 220 00:10:32,269 --> 00:10:34,509 Speaker 2: try and maintain those friendships, but it's give and take. 221 00:10:34,549 --> 00:10:36,669 Speaker 2: I think there's something quite selfish about thinking, well, I 222 00:10:36,709 --> 00:10:38,349 Speaker 2: don't want to spend my Saturday in a parker at 223 00:10:38,349 --> 00:10:41,189 Speaker 2: a kid's birthday party, Like, if you want to sustain 224 00:10:41,229 --> 00:10:43,749 Speaker 2: the friendship, then there's got to be a bit given take. 225 00:10:43,949 --> 00:10:46,509 Speaker 3: What's the give and take on the part of the 226 00:10:46,549 --> 00:10:48,389 Speaker 3: person who has kids in this equation? 227 00:10:48,589 --> 00:10:50,029 Speaker 1: What are they being asked to do. 228 00:10:50,229 --> 00:10:53,269 Speaker 2: I was having this conversation with Maya on out loud recently, 229 00:10:53,349 --> 00:10:55,789 Speaker 2: and she said, get a babysitter and hang out at night. 230 00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:57,989 Speaker 2: And you know what, do that once a month if 231 00:10:57,989 --> 00:10:59,349 Speaker 2: you can, if you can afford it. And I know 232 00:10:59,389 --> 00:11:01,629 Speaker 2: that it's harder for some people than others. It's about 233 00:11:01,629 --> 00:11:05,269 Speaker 2: how much support you have. But if you can, yeah, 234 00:11:05,389 --> 00:11:07,389 Speaker 2: have that in the diary a month in advance and 235 00:11:07,429 --> 00:11:10,589 Speaker 2: go all right, let's hang out. But still will I 236 00:11:10,589 --> 00:11:13,469 Speaker 2: think that the friends who don't have kids also have 237 00:11:13,549 --> 00:11:14,669 Speaker 2: to compromise a little bit. 238 00:11:15,029 --> 00:11:18,309 Speaker 3: See, I really disagree with you, Jessey. The last thing 239 00:11:18,549 --> 00:11:21,189 Speaker 3: I want to do is say to a friend of 240 00:11:21,229 --> 00:11:24,469 Speaker 3: mine who doesn't have children, mean us at the playground. 241 00:11:24,589 --> 00:11:30,029 Speaker 3: We will have a half hearted, completely disjointed, ultimately unsatisfactory 242 00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:32,709 Speaker 3: conversation while I ensure that my child doesn't break his 243 00:11:32,869 --> 00:11:33,429 Speaker 3: or her neck. 244 00:11:33,949 --> 00:11:34,869 Speaker 1: Who does that benefit? 245 00:11:34,909 --> 00:11:35,229 Speaker 3: All Right? 246 00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:37,149 Speaker 2: So I have a theory about why we feel differently 247 00:11:37,149 --> 00:11:39,829 Speaker 2: about this, which was in the cut article. There is 248 00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:43,869 Speaker 2: research to suggest that something happens around the age of three. 249 00:11:44,189 --> 00:11:47,629 Speaker 2: The Journal of Demographic Research said that that's when from 250 00:11:47,629 --> 00:11:49,269 Speaker 2: the age of three is when kids are the most 251 00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:51,949 Speaker 2: demanding of the parents' time and energy. I currently have 252 00:11:51,989 --> 00:11:56,309 Speaker 2: a two year old. I wonder if I'm still in this. 253 00:11:56,869 --> 00:12:00,069 Speaker 2: She's started talking probably like what six months a year ago, 254 00:12:00,149 --> 00:12:02,749 Speaker 2: like properly talking. But in that first year you can 255 00:12:02,749 --> 00:12:04,669 Speaker 2: put the baby in the pram and walk the dog, right, 256 00:12:04,709 --> 00:12:07,349 Speaker 2: So there's still an element of socializing that's possible there 257 00:12:07,629 --> 00:12:10,269 Speaker 2: even now, push her on the swing. I was hang 258 00:12:10,309 --> 00:12:12,149 Speaker 2: out with someone recently who had a five and a 259 00:12:12,229 --> 00:12:15,429 Speaker 2: seven year old. No, no, because it's the pulling of 260 00:12:15,469 --> 00:12:16,349 Speaker 2: the skirt and going my. 261 00:12:16,309 --> 00:12:22,309 Speaker 3: Mom fashion of the Minecraft movie. 262 00:12:20,709 --> 00:12:24,109 Speaker 2: Which like your friend as lovely as they are, your 263 00:12:24,149 --> 00:12:26,549 Speaker 2: kids boring as shit. Yeah, like they are boring a 264 00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:29,229 Speaker 2: shit and you know that, but you love them, And whether. 265 00:12:28,989 --> 00:12:32,029 Speaker 3: You were boring at the start, you are so boring 266 00:12:32,309 --> 00:12:34,669 Speaker 3: once you have a kid. So actually they're giving up 267 00:12:34,669 --> 00:12:36,669 Speaker 3: a lot to spend time with you from the start. 268 00:12:36,749 --> 00:12:39,589 Speaker 3: Like I remember with my newborn talking to my friend 269 00:12:39,629 --> 00:12:42,789 Speaker 3: at nauseum about the tog ratings of sleeping bags and 270 00:12:42,869 --> 00:12:45,469 Speaker 3: worrying that my daughter wasn't warm enough at night. 271 00:12:45,549 --> 00:12:46,389 Speaker 1: It's so dull. 272 00:12:46,509 --> 00:12:48,829 Speaker 2: But you know what, my friends who don't have kids 273 00:12:48,869 --> 00:12:50,149 Speaker 2: can also be very boring. 274 00:12:50,349 --> 00:12:50,589 Speaker 1: True. 275 00:12:50,669 --> 00:12:52,469 Speaker 2: I have a friend at the moment who is doing 276 00:12:52,549 --> 00:12:56,869 Speaker 2: a fitness challenge. Holy boring the stuff I've heard about, 277 00:12:56,989 --> 00:12:59,829 Speaker 2: and I follow up, so he talks about his fitness challenge. 278 00:13:00,149 --> 00:13:02,509 Speaker 2: I talk about Luna's sleep and how much sleep I 279 00:13:02,549 --> 00:13:05,949 Speaker 2: got last night. We're both bored. Isn't friendship just shared boreder? 280 00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:09,309 Speaker 3: Look, my main topic of conversation with people right now 281 00:13:09,389 --> 00:13:11,389 Speaker 3: is the fact that I love mouth tape, and I 282 00:13:11,429 --> 00:13:14,629 Speaker 3: can see the light draining from their eyes when I 283 00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:16,309 Speaker 3: talked to them about this. Just last night, I had 284 00:13:16,349 --> 00:13:18,549 Speaker 3: dinner with some one friends and our kids at a 285 00:13:18,589 --> 00:13:21,709 Speaker 3: tepanyaki joint, which is really interesting because you always wonder 286 00:13:21,749 --> 00:13:23,989 Speaker 3: whether or not the food is going to make it 287 00:13:23,989 --> 00:13:25,949 Speaker 3: into the bowl or if it's going to go all 288 00:13:25,989 --> 00:13:28,709 Speaker 3: over your brand new jumper. I'm pleased to report that 289 00:13:28,749 --> 00:13:30,389 Speaker 3: my jumper did not have stains on it. At the 290 00:13:30,469 --> 00:13:32,789 Speaker 3: end of the night, you know, I'm devoid of conversation. 291 00:13:32,989 --> 00:13:36,029 Speaker 3: I'm very tired, and I just started talking about mouth 292 00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:38,829 Speaker 3: tape because that's my go to and I realized that's 293 00:13:38,869 --> 00:13:42,029 Speaker 3: really boring. So we probably shouldn't say just kids are boring, 294 00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:44,669 Speaker 3: And in fact this conversation you couldn't send it to partners. 295 00:13:45,029 --> 00:13:48,189 Speaker 3: Think about heterosexual relationships where you've got do I bring 296 00:13:48,309 --> 00:13:50,309 Speaker 3: the man who's now in my life along to the 297 00:13:50,709 --> 00:13:51,829 Speaker 3: dinner with girlfriends? 298 00:13:51,909 --> 00:13:54,669 Speaker 2: I have met men so much more boring than a 299 00:13:54,669 --> 00:13:56,309 Speaker 2: sick jumper so much. 300 00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:58,709 Speaker 3: This is what I'm saying. And I guess the contention 301 00:13:58,829 --> 00:14:00,389 Speaker 3: that I'm moving towards here. 302 00:14:00,269 --> 00:14:02,429 Speaker 1: Is we're all a little bit boring. 303 00:14:02,429 --> 00:14:04,589 Speaker 3: But our friends the people who find us the right 304 00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:07,469 Speaker 3: amount of boring. So let's not drag other people into 305 00:14:07,469 --> 00:14:11,229 Speaker 3: the equation. See your friends on terms as a friendship, 306 00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:13,269 Speaker 3: don't try and bring kids in, don't try and being 307 00:14:13,349 --> 00:14:17,789 Speaker 3: partners in interesting. I'm all about the compartmentalization. I think 308 00:14:17,869 --> 00:14:20,469 Speaker 3: it's also because we're not as accustomed to the ups 309 00:14:20,469 --> 00:14:22,909 Speaker 3: and downs in our friendships as we are in our relationships. 310 00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:25,389 Speaker 3: Like I think there's an understanding that in long term 311 00:14:25,429 --> 00:14:27,869 Speaker 3: relationships you might go through rough patches, you'll go through 312 00:14:27,909 --> 00:14:31,029 Speaker 3: great patches, and the same is not really said for friendships, 313 00:14:31,029 --> 00:14:33,429 Speaker 3: Like we just go, oh, that's run its course once 314 00:14:33,469 --> 00:14:35,509 Speaker 3: they've had a child and they've kind of retreated. So 315 00:14:36,029 --> 00:14:37,949 Speaker 3: and the other thing to consider is how much our 316 00:14:37,989 --> 00:14:40,349 Speaker 3: circle of friends changes in that time, because we talk 317 00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:42,989 Speaker 3: about losing friends a lot, or maybe friends without children 318 00:14:43,229 --> 00:14:46,309 Speaker 3: retreating from us, but you also are forced into a 319 00:14:46,349 --> 00:14:49,189 Speaker 3: lot of extra friendships through circumstance, like whether that's through 320 00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:52,349 Speaker 3: a mother's group, whether that's through sport or kids' activities, 321 00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:54,709 Speaker 3: where so many more people end up in your life. 322 00:14:54,789 --> 00:14:58,469 Speaker 3: And there was an essay in Psychology Today where clinical 323 00:14:58,469 --> 00:15:03,269 Speaker 3: psychologist Seth Meyers, not the late night host, talked about 324 00:15:03,589 --> 00:15:06,309 Speaker 3: how many people are blindsided by the level of loss 325 00:15:06,309 --> 00:15:08,189 Speaker 3: when it comes to their friendships because it's always the 326 00:15:08,229 --> 00:15:11,549 Speaker 3: ones they don't expect. He also warned about being a 327 00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:15,069 Speaker 3: bit cautious going into these new friendships because they've kind 328 00:15:15,069 --> 00:15:18,189 Speaker 3: of been forced upon you by circumstance, that they might 329 00:15:18,229 --> 00:15:20,469 Speaker 3: not stand the test of time once those children have 330 00:15:20,549 --> 00:15:22,869 Speaker 3: kind of grown up or moved out of that activity. 331 00:15:23,029 --> 00:15:25,389 Speaker 2: That is so true. I've seen that happen where I 332 00:15:25,429 --> 00:15:27,709 Speaker 2: think people look at each other and they go, oh, 333 00:15:27,709 --> 00:15:30,909 Speaker 2: we're only mates because or they've tried to like go 334 00:15:31,029 --> 00:15:32,709 Speaker 2: all right, so we're friends because our kids in a 335 00:15:32,749 --> 00:15:35,149 Speaker 2: primary school together and they're like, let's try and do 336 00:15:35,229 --> 00:15:37,309 Speaker 2: a weake and away doesn't worry. It's like, no, no, no, 337 00:15:37,389 --> 00:15:39,349 Speaker 2: it only works in that context. Oh yeah. 338 00:15:39,629 --> 00:15:42,309 Speaker 3: This makes me think about the fact that when you 339 00:15:42,469 --> 00:15:46,549 Speaker 3: have little kids, conversation is never that good, and so 340 00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:49,349 Speaker 3: the friendship there's never that much strain put on the 341 00:15:49,389 --> 00:15:52,629 Speaker 3: friend Yes, but as the kids grow older and they're 342 00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:54,469 Speaker 3: off doing their own thing, all of a sudden, the 343 00:15:54,469 --> 00:15:59,269 Speaker 3: spotlight is on. Can this relationship withstand long stretches of 344 00:15:59,429 --> 00:16:00,629 Speaker 3: actual conversation. 345 00:16:01,309 --> 00:16:02,149 Speaker 1: The jury is out. 346 00:16:03,709 --> 00:16:05,949 Speaker 2: There are a few things floating around in the culture 347 00:16:05,949 --> 00:16:08,429 Speaker 2: that I'm going to attempt to bring together. The first 348 00:16:08,709 --> 00:16:11,829 Speaker 2: is The Atlantic published a story this month about the 349 00:16:11,869 --> 00:16:16,149 Speaker 2: return of the landline. Writer Rina Murray spoke to a 350 00:16:16,189 --> 00:16:18,709 Speaker 2: mother who bought her ten year old a landline to 351 00:16:18,709 --> 00:16:20,709 Speaker 2: connect with her friends, and this was in lieu of 352 00:16:20,749 --> 00:16:24,429 Speaker 2: a smartphone, and then encouraged other families in the suburb 353 00:16:24,509 --> 00:16:27,269 Speaker 2: to do the same. So now twenty or so families 354 00:16:27,309 --> 00:16:30,389 Speaker 2: have landlines. They've got their kids calling each other. She 355 00:16:30,469 --> 00:16:33,309 Speaker 2: writes about sort of practicing active listening, which is a 356 00:16:33,309 --> 00:16:36,229 Speaker 2: lot better than looking on FaceTime, which can be distracting 357 00:16:36,749 --> 00:16:38,869 Speaker 2: and This leads me to the second thing. I listened 358 00:16:38,869 --> 00:16:41,589 Speaker 2: to this great episode of Search Engine which was about 359 00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:46,149 Speaker 2: a booming industry of technology to stop you from using 360 00:16:46,189 --> 00:16:49,429 Speaker 2: addictive technology. So think a dumb phone, or there's this 361 00:16:49,469 --> 00:16:52,109 Speaker 2: thing called a brick, which is you kind of tap 362 00:16:52,149 --> 00:16:54,189 Speaker 2: your phone, turns all the apps off, and then you 363 00:16:54,229 --> 00:16:55,789 Speaker 2: can go for a walk or spent a few hours 364 00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:57,949 Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you tap it again, apps come 365 00:16:57,989 --> 00:17:00,829 Speaker 2: back on. And the third thing is a story in 366 00:17:00,869 --> 00:17:04,669 Speaker 2: the cut about millennial nostalgia for a nineties summer. It's 367 00:17:04,709 --> 00:17:09,789 Speaker 2: about the school holidays where time was unstructured. You laid around, 368 00:17:10,109 --> 00:17:12,509 Speaker 2: maybe you watched some TV, you got up late, you 369 00:17:12,589 --> 00:17:16,029 Speaker 2: went on a budget family trip up the coast, basically 370 00:17:16,229 --> 00:17:19,949 Speaker 2: a time before YouTube. And I think what this highlighted 371 00:17:19,989 --> 00:17:22,509 Speaker 2: for me is that we're trying to wind back the 372 00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:26,389 Speaker 2: clock and recreate the childhood we had. And my question 373 00:17:26,629 --> 00:17:30,229 Speaker 2: is is that even possible? Stacy, what do you think? 374 00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:34,349 Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's possible at all. But I 375 00:17:34,389 --> 00:17:36,869 Speaker 3: love that everyone is trying. And my best friend has 376 00:17:36,909 --> 00:17:38,829 Speaker 3: actually been telling me the same thing is happening in 377 00:17:38,829 --> 00:17:41,469 Speaker 3: her neighborhood at the moment where all the year four 378 00:17:41,549 --> 00:17:44,869 Speaker 3: moms have set up a chat about reinstalling landlines in 379 00:17:44,909 --> 00:17:47,789 Speaker 3: their homes. I thought this was just an Atlantic trendy. No, 380 00:17:48,189 --> 00:17:53,309 Speaker 3: this is happening in regional Queensland where they're doing that 381 00:17:53,389 --> 00:17:56,189 Speaker 3: because and her reasoning was really interesting. She said, to me, 382 00:17:56,589 --> 00:17:58,749 Speaker 3: the most important thing to me is just allowing her 383 00:17:58,789 --> 00:18:01,869 Speaker 3: to be where she is. So whether they're out at school, sport, 384 00:18:01,949 --> 00:18:05,589 Speaker 3: whether they're at home just having family time, the technology 385 00:18:05,589 --> 00:18:08,869 Speaker 3: can physically not reach her, so it's very easy way 386 00:18:08,909 --> 00:18:10,749 Speaker 3: to shut it off and it not be available and 387 00:18:10,949 --> 00:18:13,189 Speaker 3: still be able to enjoy being in the present moment 388 00:18:13,229 --> 00:18:14,029 Speaker 3: of her childhood. 389 00:18:14,269 --> 00:18:15,629 Speaker 1: And that's the fear. 390 00:18:15,509 --> 00:18:18,669 Speaker 3: For everybody, the idea that the landline is prolonging her 391 00:18:18,749 --> 00:18:23,149 Speaker 3: having to get a mobile phone. Yes, her daughter, Yeah, absolutely, 392 00:18:23,229 --> 00:18:25,949 Speaker 3: because then it is very much that she can talk 393 00:18:25,989 --> 00:18:28,349 Speaker 3: in a public space. Her parents are around, they can 394 00:18:28,349 --> 00:18:30,709 Speaker 3: see that she's chatting, and as you say, they're actually 395 00:18:30,749 --> 00:18:33,469 Speaker 3: holding a conversation. It's not just tapping away on a 396 00:18:33,549 --> 00:18:37,789 Speaker 3: keyboard to some faceless friend. They're actually communicating and learning 397 00:18:37,789 --> 00:18:40,309 Speaker 3: that skill, which I think, I mean, even I hate 398 00:18:40,349 --> 00:18:43,429 Speaker 3: having to call the doctors now we just don't do it. 399 00:18:43,469 --> 00:18:46,309 Speaker 3: So it's great that they're encouraging them with that, and 400 00:18:46,349 --> 00:18:49,509 Speaker 3: the theory is that rather than just taking something away 401 00:18:49,509 --> 00:18:52,109 Speaker 3: and depriving, it's like you give them something else instead. 402 00:18:52,189 --> 00:18:55,149 Speaker 2: And it reminds me of in this search Engine episode, 403 00:18:55,189 --> 00:18:58,629 Speaker 2: it said you can treat your mobile phone like a landline, 404 00:18:58,629 --> 00:19:00,389 Speaker 2: Like if you walk into your house and you plug 405 00:19:00,429 --> 00:19:02,149 Speaker 2: it in and you go when my phone is in 406 00:19:02,189 --> 00:19:04,509 Speaker 2: my house, it's plugged in, that's it, and when I 407 00:19:04,509 --> 00:19:07,269 Speaker 2: want to use it, I go upstairs or I go whatever, 408 00:19:07,629 --> 00:19:10,869 Speaker 2: and I tap away. I thought that it's really clever 409 00:19:11,189 --> 00:19:13,949 Speaker 2: because that has some boundary where if you're sitting on 410 00:19:13,989 --> 00:19:15,309 Speaker 2: the couch and you just go to look at your 411 00:19:15,309 --> 00:19:17,869 Speaker 2: phone for the four hundredth time that day. Because let's 412 00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:21,069 Speaker 2: be honest, the reason why kids want phones is because 413 00:19:21,309 --> 00:19:24,029 Speaker 2: we are not setting a great example. I am appalling. 414 00:19:24,669 --> 00:19:28,469 Speaker 2: Just having that bit of resistance is way better for us. 415 00:19:29,069 --> 00:19:32,709 Speaker 2: I think it was in the cut article it talked 416 00:19:32,749 --> 00:19:36,549 Speaker 2: about this concept of kid rotting, and it was saying 417 00:19:36,829 --> 00:19:40,909 Speaker 2: that it might be better to let kids do nothing. 418 00:19:41,069 --> 00:19:41,309 Speaker 1: Right. 419 00:19:41,429 --> 00:19:44,429 Speaker 2: So what happens now? School holidays are coming up and 420 00:19:44,509 --> 00:19:47,589 Speaker 2: a lot of people will go camps training. Let's have 421 00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:50,589 Speaker 2: something for every day. But I don't think you can 422 00:19:50,709 --> 00:19:53,389 Speaker 2: let a kid rot anymore, because if a kid is rotting, 423 00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:57,029 Speaker 2: they will gravitate like there is a magnet to the 424 00:19:57,149 --> 00:20:01,109 Speaker 2: nearest screen and there is no unstructured time because that's 425 00:20:01,189 --> 00:20:04,989 Speaker 2: just screen time will pay a premium. There is such 426 00:20:05,069 --> 00:20:07,629 Speaker 2: desperation to be like, oh, school holidays, how do I 427 00:20:07,629 --> 00:20:11,229 Speaker 2: separate child from screen for the long amount of time possible? 428 00:20:11,309 --> 00:20:11,549 Speaker 1: Yeah. 429 00:20:11,589 --> 00:20:14,229 Speaker 3: I was talking with a friend about the pressure that 430 00:20:14,309 --> 00:20:17,189 Speaker 3: we have to enroll kids and all sorts of activities now, 431 00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:21,229 Speaker 3: and she really dropped a truth bomb. She said, I 432 00:20:21,389 --> 00:20:24,189 Speaker 3: realized I dialed back on my kids' activities, and then 433 00:20:24,189 --> 00:20:26,189 Speaker 3: I realized that I was just giving them more time 434 00:20:26,229 --> 00:20:27,149 Speaker 3: to watch television. 435 00:20:27,589 --> 00:20:29,109 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. 436 00:20:29,229 --> 00:20:31,549 Speaker 3: We had television back in the olden days. But were 437 00:20:31,589 --> 00:20:32,989 Speaker 3: we just watching less of it? 438 00:20:33,389 --> 00:20:36,829 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it wasn't I think underpinned with an algorithm 439 00:20:36,869 --> 00:20:39,229 Speaker 2: designed to turn our brains into mush. It was like, 440 00:20:39,349 --> 00:20:41,789 Speaker 2: I think we all remember the experience of getting bored. 441 00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:43,909 Speaker 3: Yes, and so we didn't have the expectation that we 442 00:20:43,949 --> 00:20:46,749 Speaker 3: would need to be entertained at all times exactly children 443 00:20:46,829 --> 00:20:47,349 Speaker 3: already have. 444 00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:50,269 Speaker 2: And then when you went outside, like, yeah, you could 445 00:20:50,269 --> 00:20:52,349 Speaker 2: go to a friend's house and watch television. But even 446 00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:54,429 Speaker 2: if you haven't seen your kids in a while, and 447 00:20:54,469 --> 00:20:56,909 Speaker 2: they're at the neighbor's house or whatever. They're probably on 448 00:20:56,989 --> 00:20:59,989 Speaker 2: PS five right like that, it's very unlikely they're making 449 00:20:59,989 --> 00:21:02,949 Speaker 2: a tree house, which is I think contributing to this 450 00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:08,709 Speaker 2: parental anxiety. And it also I think screens make time 451 00:21:09,469 --> 00:21:12,989 Speaker 2: feel different, like there is this endlessness to a day 452 00:21:13,109 --> 00:21:16,989 Speaker 2: where you're engaged with the world around you, and now 453 00:21:17,669 --> 00:21:21,989 Speaker 2: it just feels so punctuated by three second videos or 454 00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:24,149 Speaker 2: YouTube or whatever they're on. 455 00:21:24,589 --> 00:21:27,869 Speaker 3: And here's another thing I'm concerned about the death of 456 00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:28,709 Speaker 3: the prank call. 457 00:21:31,069 --> 00:21:35,229 Speaker 2: Make prank calls so important, Amelia, so true? What was 458 00:21:35,269 --> 00:21:37,069 Speaker 2: your go to look? 459 00:21:37,149 --> 00:21:38,869 Speaker 3: I don't even want to say it on that, but 460 00:21:38,949 --> 00:21:42,069 Speaker 3: I did love a prank call, like wrapping the curly 461 00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:45,069 Speaker 3: cord of the phone around my finger, doing the star 462 00:21:45,189 --> 00:21:46,109 Speaker 3: sixty nine. 463 00:21:45,949 --> 00:21:47,109 Speaker 1: To see who would last call? 464 00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:50,989 Speaker 3: Remember that someone tells you how to devilish sense of humor. 465 00:21:51,349 --> 00:21:53,949 Speaker 2: I loved all of that, I know, and it's. 466 00:21:53,789 --> 00:21:55,909 Speaker 3: Sad to think that for the most part, kids are 467 00:21:55,949 --> 00:21:59,029 Speaker 3: not having that. I just wonder though it's hard to 468 00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:03,509 Speaker 3: distinguish between moral panic around phones and also the inevitable 469 00:22:03,589 --> 00:22:07,029 Speaker 3: nostalgia that a parenting generation has for its youth. Is 470 00:22:07,069 --> 00:22:09,109 Speaker 3: that just what we're doing here, or is there something 471 00:22:09,149 --> 00:22:12,789 Speaker 3: fundamentally different about the digital world that we live in 472 00:22:12,869 --> 00:22:15,109 Speaker 3: now as compared with the world that we grew up in. 473 00:22:15,549 --> 00:22:18,389 Speaker 2: I wonder that too, because there's an inevitable nostalgia. Like 474 00:22:18,429 --> 00:22:20,669 Speaker 2: I'm sure my mum felt the nostalgia because we had 475 00:22:20,829 --> 00:22:22,749 Speaker 2: Foxtel and she was like, well, I think when my 476 00:22:22,829 --> 00:22:25,389 Speaker 2: mom grew up, TV wasn't actually on all night, Like 477 00:22:25,389 --> 00:22:28,069 Speaker 2: there was a point at which the TV stopped and 478 00:22:28,109 --> 00:22:29,949 Speaker 2: she just went, you could watch TV at any time, 479 00:22:29,989 --> 00:22:31,349 Speaker 2: and you can change the channel and you watch. 480 00:22:31,389 --> 00:22:33,549 Speaker 3: And when I grew up, there was rage, and. 481 00:22:33,469 --> 00:22:35,109 Speaker 1: Now there's no rage. It's rage. 482 00:22:35,109 --> 00:22:35,829 Speaker 2: It is so sad. 483 00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:37,789 Speaker 3: And you don't have to wait for the video to rewind, 484 00:22:37,869 --> 00:22:40,829 Speaker 3: so there is absolutely no patience. Remember that when you 485 00:22:40,869 --> 00:22:42,709 Speaker 3: get out the best video that you wanted to watch 486 00:22:42,709 --> 00:22:44,989 Speaker 3: on school holidays and it was at the end, you 487 00:22:45,069 --> 00:22:46,829 Speaker 3: had to wait to rewind it back to the start. 488 00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:48,749 Speaker 1: I don't do that now. It's just an on a 489 00:22:48,829 --> 00:22:49,869 Speaker 1: loop instantly. 490 00:22:50,189 --> 00:22:53,269 Speaker 3: And I do think the fundamental challenge we have as 491 00:22:53,389 --> 00:22:58,789 Speaker 3: parents is trying to reacquaint ourselves with boredom because our 492 00:22:58,909 --> 00:23:01,109 Speaker 3: children are learning from us every time we pick up 493 00:23:01,109 --> 00:23:04,269 Speaker 3: our phone because we feel discomfort or disquiet or boredom. 494 00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:07,949 Speaker 2: I reckon algorithms have changed childhood. There is an element 495 00:23:07,989 --> 00:23:10,829 Speaker 2: of nostalgia and us wanting to recreate what we see 496 00:23:10,829 --> 00:23:13,589 Speaker 2: as an idyllic if we're lucky enough, but moments of 497 00:23:13,989 --> 00:23:16,629 Speaker 2: an idyllic kind of utopian childhood, and we go I 498 00:23:16,629 --> 00:23:19,109 Speaker 2: want to give them that. I do think that it's 499 00:23:19,109 --> 00:23:23,349 Speaker 2: fundamentally changed how time is spent in childhood. And I 500 00:23:23,389 --> 00:23:27,189 Speaker 2: even think about the computer room. Like when I grew up, 501 00:23:27,189 --> 00:23:29,709 Speaker 2: when the computer did come, it was in a room 502 00:23:30,229 --> 00:23:34,189 Speaker 2: and you fought for it, and sometimes it was dial up. 503 00:23:34,709 --> 00:23:36,829 Speaker 2: There was a sense as well that even though it 504 00:23:36,869 --> 00:23:39,189 Speaker 2: was a room, that it wasn't entirely private, so you 505 00:23:39,229 --> 00:23:41,669 Speaker 2: felt like you were being watched. And now every room 506 00:23:41,829 --> 00:23:44,629 Speaker 2: in every house is a computer room. So it just 507 00:23:44,709 --> 00:23:47,389 Speaker 2: means that time isn't it doesn't have these distinctions when 508 00:23:47,429 --> 00:23:47,789 Speaker 2: it comes. 509 00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:50,069 Speaker 3: To exactly and on Mama Mea. Actually, we've seen a 510 00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:53,189 Speaker 3: huge appetite from parents for information on how to control 511 00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:56,669 Speaker 3: their children's access to technology. We did a story on 512 00:23:56,909 --> 00:24:00,349 Speaker 3: the top three safety features every parent needs on their 513 00:24:00,389 --> 00:24:02,989 Speaker 3: phone that Analys Todd wrote for us, and it was 514 00:24:03,149 --> 00:24:07,149 Speaker 3: top on the site for days just talking about us. Yeah, 515 00:24:07,149 --> 00:24:09,429 Speaker 3: so there's lots of different features. This is mostly for 516 00:24:09,469 --> 00:24:12,669 Speaker 3: the Apple use sel apologies to the Android users among us. 517 00:24:12,989 --> 00:24:16,669 Speaker 3: But there's now nudity blocking functions where oh wow, you 518 00:24:16,709 --> 00:24:18,589 Speaker 3: can set those up on your children's phone so it 519 00:24:18,629 --> 00:24:21,429 Speaker 3: blurs the images. They've got a three step process they 520 00:24:21,429 --> 00:24:24,069 Speaker 3: have to get through to see it, including you putting 521 00:24:24,069 --> 00:24:27,229 Speaker 3: in a password for them to see the image. There's 522 00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:30,109 Speaker 3: screen time setups now where you can be blocking certain 523 00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:32,509 Speaker 3: websites so that they can't access them, and of course 524 00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:35,669 Speaker 3: like limiting their screen time all together can be done 525 00:24:35,709 --> 00:24:39,109 Speaker 3: as well. But the response to that story was epic, 526 00:24:39,229 --> 00:24:41,429 Speaker 3: and I think that just showed how worried we all 527 00:24:41,469 --> 00:24:43,349 Speaker 3: are about that, whether we're at that stage with our 528 00:24:43,429 --> 00:24:46,029 Speaker 3: children or not, to be thinking well, how am I 529 00:24:46,069 --> 00:24:47,469 Speaker 3: going to get on top of this, and maybe a 530 00:24:47,509 --> 00:24:49,629 Speaker 3: little bit of thinking how do I get on top 531 00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:52,709 Speaker 3: of this one myself now so that I'm not setting this. 532 00:24:52,749 --> 00:24:53,229 Speaker 1: Up for them. 533 00:24:53,389 --> 00:24:56,029 Speaker 2: Emily Osta, who gives a bit of parenting advice and 534 00:24:56,149 --> 00:25:00,069 Speaker 2: a lot of it is databased, she says about screen time, 535 00:25:01,109 --> 00:25:03,629 Speaker 2: what's it taking away from? So whenever you have a 536 00:25:03,789 --> 00:25:07,629 Speaker 2: child who's looking at a screen. So, for example, Luna 537 00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:10,669 Speaker 2: has been onwell recently and it's like, we wouldn't be 538 00:25:10,709 --> 00:25:15,829 Speaker 2: at the park, we wouldn't be doing something enriching. She's 539 00:25:15,869 --> 00:25:17,909 Speaker 2: glad to look at the TV. Like, if the difference 540 00:25:17,949 --> 00:25:19,909 Speaker 2: is between looking at a TV and looking at a 541 00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:22,149 Speaker 2: white wall, then you're allowed to do the TV. It's 542 00:25:22,189 --> 00:25:25,429 Speaker 2: just when it starts to sort of encroach on other activities. 543 00:25:25,509 --> 00:25:28,389 Speaker 2: And I also heard an experts say not all screen 544 00:25:28,469 --> 00:25:31,029 Speaker 2: time is equal. So if you can find something that 545 00:25:31,109 --> 00:25:34,149 Speaker 2: has any sort of narrative, like even Blueye, it does 546 00:25:34,229 --> 00:25:36,549 Speaker 2: have like a story to it, way better than just 547 00:25:36,629 --> 00:25:41,069 Speaker 2: jumbling fast cuts of like this is brainmush or social 548 00:25:41,069 --> 00:25:43,469 Speaker 2: media like that makes a difference. And something that's a 549 00:25:43,509 --> 00:25:46,509 Speaker 2: little bit more slow is also what some of the 550 00:25:46,549 --> 00:25:49,589 Speaker 2: experts say. And in terms of phones, I remember reading 551 00:25:49,589 --> 00:25:52,149 Speaker 2: the advice years ago turn it to grayscale and it 552 00:25:52,189 --> 00:25:54,829 Speaker 2: makes it less appealing, and I've found that helps for 553 00:25:54,909 --> 00:25:55,229 Speaker 2: me too. 554 00:25:57,549 --> 00:26:01,549 Speaker 3: Mss Rachel is a very popular children's entertainer. I have 555 00:26:01,669 --> 00:26:05,229 Speaker 3: actually never seen her videos, but I have gone deep 556 00:26:05,349 --> 00:26:09,829 Speaker 3: on a controversy that has embroiled her and which I 557 00:26:09,869 --> 00:26:12,109 Speaker 3: think gets to the heart of the relationship that we 558 00:26:12,229 --> 00:26:14,949 Speaker 3: now have with children's entertainers, so let me unpack it. 559 00:26:15,549 --> 00:26:18,389 Speaker 3: Her real name is Rachel ann Accurso. She is a 560 00:26:18,429 --> 00:26:21,909 Speaker 3: former teacher. She makes adorable content for kids on YouTube. 561 00:26:22,109 --> 00:26:24,749 Speaker 3: I'm told it's adorable. She certainly looks adorable. She wears 562 00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:27,189 Speaker 3: overalls and a pink T shirt and a pick headband, 563 00:26:27,869 --> 00:26:30,869 Speaker 3: and her channel, which started in twenty nineteen to help 564 00:26:30,869 --> 00:26:33,589 Speaker 3: her own son with a speech delay, has over fifteen 565 00:26:33,629 --> 00:26:37,909 Speaker 3: million subscribers, and she's recently had her videos licensed by Netflix, 566 00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:40,989 Speaker 3: so she might be, by some metrics, the most popular 567 00:26:41,069 --> 00:26:44,509 Speaker 3: children entertainer in the world. However, she is in trouble. 568 00:26:44,909 --> 00:26:48,909 Speaker 3: In April, an American group called Stop Antisemitism called on 569 00:26:48,949 --> 00:26:53,029 Speaker 3: the US Attorney General Pam Bondie to investigate Miss Rachel. 570 00:26:53,709 --> 00:26:55,109 Speaker 1: The group said that she had. 571 00:26:55,069 --> 00:26:59,869 Speaker 3: Been disseminating pro harmas propaganda and getting paid by her 572 00:26:59,949 --> 00:27:02,949 Speaker 3: mass for doing so, which would be quite a scandal. 573 00:27:02,989 --> 00:27:06,869 Speaker 3: I agree, is Miss Rachel in fact disseminating pro har 574 00:27:06,949 --> 00:27:10,949 Speaker 3: mass propaganda? We should say that she did nys that 575 00:27:11,069 --> 00:27:14,109 Speaker 3: she is being paid anything by her mass, And I 576 00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:17,469 Speaker 3: think that the charge that she's disseminating propaganda is kind 577 00:27:17,509 --> 00:27:19,949 Speaker 3: of a tough case to make. Speaking as someone who 578 00:27:20,029 --> 00:27:22,189 Speaker 3: is not very familiar with her content. I watched a 579 00:27:22,229 --> 00:27:25,389 Speaker 3: few of her videos in preparation for this. They seem 580 00:27:25,709 --> 00:27:28,829 Speaker 3: very benign to me. They seem to be about toilet training, 581 00:27:29,349 --> 00:27:32,749 Speaker 3: brushing your teeth, learning your colors. I did not see 582 00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:36,549 Speaker 3: anything that would seem to be pro har maass propaganda. 583 00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:40,109 Speaker 3: What she has posted on her social media feed on 584 00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:44,069 Speaker 3: her instagram so separate from the YouTube channel, are images 585 00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:48,069 Speaker 3: of traumatized children in the Gaza strip. These images often 586 00:27:48,109 --> 00:27:51,469 Speaker 3: feature the children watching her videos or even interacting with 587 00:27:51,469 --> 00:27:55,549 Speaker 3: Miss Rachel via FaceTime. She has also pledged one million 588 00:27:55,589 --> 00:27:58,309 Speaker 3: dollars to the World Food Program, which works to provide 589 00:27:58,389 --> 00:28:03,709 Speaker 3: nutrition for kids in conflict zones Sudan, Ukraine and also Gaza. 590 00:28:03,949 --> 00:28:07,389 Speaker 3: She has also posted about Israeli children who were held 591 00:28:07,389 --> 00:28:10,669 Speaker 3: hostage by her mass. She told in Your Times in 592 00:28:10,709 --> 00:28:13,749 Speaker 3: a very long investigative peace about this that her posting 593 00:28:13,749 --> 00:28:16,949 Speaker 3: about children in Gaza was a continuation of her lifelong 594 00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:21,029 Speaker 3: work and passion for children, But The Times quoted some 595 00:28:21,149 --> 00:28:24,269 Speaker 3: Jewish parents who felt distraught. They said that there was 596 00:28:24,269 --> 00:28:27,469 Speaker 3: a relative lack of posts about Israeli children, and The Times, 597 00:28:27,469 --> 00:28:32,029 Speaker 3: which did an analysis of Miss Rachel's instagram content agreed 598 00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,789 Speaker 3: with that assessment that she did tend to post more 599 00:28:34,869 --> 00:28:38,989 Speaker 3: about Gaza and children than Israeli children. One Jewish parent 600 00:28:39,069 --> 00:28:41,669 Speaker 3: quoted said Miss Rachel seems to be someone who is 601 00:28:41,789 --> 00:28:44,709 Speaker 3: really really good hearted, but in the context of everything 602 00:28:44,749 --> 00:28:47,269 Speaker 3: that's going on, she says, I care about all children, 603 00:28:47,429 --> 00:28:50,469 Speaker 3: She's really talking about the children of Gaza. That was 604 00:28:50,469 --> 00:28:53,469 Speaker 3: a Jewish parent called Stacy Hackner, who's based in London. 605 00:28:53,949 --> 00:28:56,069 Speaker 3: She said that has left a lot of Jewish parents 606 00:28:56,149 --> 00:29:00,549 Speaker 3: feeling quite isolated. In research for this, I have to 607 00:29:00,589 --> 00:29:03,669 Speaker 3: say that one video that Miss Rachel pin really made 608 00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:05,829 Speaker 3: a big impression on me. It featured a three year 609 00:29:05,869 --> 00:29:09,549 Speaker 3: old girl called Rahaf who was a double amputee who 610 00:29:09,589 --> 00:29:12,829 Speaker 3: was medically evacuated from Gaza for her surgery and sings 611 00:29:12,869 --> 00:29:16,189 Speaker 3: a song with Miss Rachel about skipping and hopping. Her 612 00:29:16,229 --> 00:29:20,389 Speaker 3: two brothers are still in Gaza with their father. Stepping 613 00:29:20,429 --> 00:29:22,589 Speaker 3: back from all of this, though, I want to talk 614 00:29:22,629 --> 00:29:27,549 Speaker 3: about why we feel so connected in this way to 615 00:29:27,709 --> 00:29:31,749 Speaker 3: children's entertainers, why it matters to us what Miss Rachel 616 00:29:31,909 --> 00:29:35,389 Speaker 3: thinks about world news and events. I think it's probably 617 00:29:35,389 --> 00:29:38,109 Speaker 3: inevitable on one level that these debates are happening. You 618 00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:40,869 Speaker 3: just have to look at how during COVID desperate parents 619 00:29:40,869 --> 00:29:43,389 Speaker 3: were looking for anything to entertain their children and they 620 00:29:43,469 --> 00:29:47,109 Speaker 3: latched on to all sorts of parenting gurus. So one 621 00:29:47,149 --> 00:29:49,349 Speaker 3: guru I was obsessed with during this time was an 622 00:29:49,349 --> 00:29:52,229 Speaker 3: American woman called Taking Cara Babies. Have either of you 623 00:29:52,269 --> 00:29:56,669 Speaker 3: heard of her? No? So she is this lovely blonde 624 00:29:56,709 --> 00:30:01,669 Speaker 3: woman from Arizona who posted endless Instagram videos about sleep schedules. 625 00:30:01,749 --> 00:30:05,189 Speaker 3: She absolutely got me through twenty twenty. I'm still exciting 626 00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:07,189 Speaker 3: in my household all the time. Her idea of the 627 00:30:07,189 --> 00:30:09,589 Speaker 3: sleepwave you got to ride the sleepwave. This applies to 628 00:30:09,589 --> 00:30:11,749 Speaker 3: adults too. If you feel sleep coming on, you gotta 629 00:30:11,829 --> 00:30:13,349 Speaker 3: ride the wave, and if you miss the wave, you 630 00:30:13,429 --> 00:30:16,349 Speaker 3: gotta wait for the next one. Genius. I was very 631 00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:19,989 Speaker 3: dismayed when I found out that Kara was a Trump supporter. 632 00:30:20,189 --> 00:30:22,829 Speaker 3: She had not posted about it on her Taking Care 633 00:30:22,829 --> 00:30:25,149 Speaker 3: of Babies account, but she was posting about it on 634 00:30:25,189 --> 00:30:28,669 Speaker 3: her personal account. I really resented her using even her 635 00:30:28,749 --> 00:30:31,269 Speaker 3: personal account to talk about politics, and it made me 636 00:30:31,389 --> 00:30:33,869 Speaker 3: not want to watch her videos or take her sleep 637 00:30:33,869 --> 00:30:40,269 Speaker 3: advice anymore. I'm not drawing equivalences or even parallels between 638 00:30:40,269 --> 00:30:43,909 Speaker 3: these very different political stories here. I'm mentioning it because 639 00:30:44,189 --> 00:30:48,429 Speaker 3: I felt left out, resent full, angry at taking care 640 00:30:48,469 --> 00:30:50,469 Speaker 3: of babies in a way that perhaps I didn't have 641 00:30:50,509 --> 00:30:52,669 Speaker 3: a right to. She was teaching me about children's sleep. 642 00:30:52,749 --> 00:30:55,469 Speaker 3: She wasn't showing me her political beliefs or talking about 643 00:30:55,469 --> 00:30:58,389 Speaker 3: world events. But I think what's interesting is that we 644 00:30:58,509 --> 00:31:01,229 Speaker 3: clearly do expect people who work with or care about 645 00:31:01,309 --> 00:31:04,389 Speaker 3: kids to not share their political beliefs with us, and 646 00:31:04,429 --> 00:31:06,669 Speaker 3: to not share how they think about the wider world. 647 00:31:06,749 --> 00:31:10,069 Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if that's really fair, And it seems 648 00:31:10,229 --> 00:31:13,669 Speaker 3: connected to me to an idea that children themselves should 649 00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:17,869 Speaker 3: not be talked about as living in an inherently political world. 650 00:31:18,109 --> 00:31:20,829 Speaker 3: Children living in a world where the decisions made by 651 00:31:20,909 --> 00:31:24,069 Speaker 3: leaders directly impact them. Doesn't it make sense for the 652 00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:26,709 Speaker 3: experts that we turn to to raise our own children 653 00:31:26,989 --> 00:31:29,069 Speaker 3: to weigh in on these decisions that are being made 654 00:31:29,109 --> 00:31:29,669 Speaker 3: by leaders. 655 00:31:30,189 --> 00:31:34,869 Speaker 2: It's interesting because I reckon it is a totally different 656 00:31:35,189 --> 00:31:38,709 Speaker 2: level of parasocial relationship, and I think it's because of 657 00:31:38,749 --> 00:31:41,749 Speaker 2: the moments where we feel our children, especially with the 658 00:31:41,789 --> 00:31:45,069 Speaker 2: Miss Rachel example. She's been in your home, she's been 659 00:31:45,109 --> 00:31:48,709 Speaker 2: in your child's bedroom, she's sung in your child's ear. 660 00:31:48,949 --> 00:31:50,469 Speaker 1: Are you are, Miss Rachel Arcolod. 661 00:31:50,629 --> 00:31:52,589 Speaker 2: So we have Miss Rachel plays a song for us 662 00:31:52,629 --> 00:31:54,469 Speaker 2: every time we brush our teeth. We do the brushing 663 00:31:54,469 --> 00:31:58,389 Speaker 2: teeth song, and she is like I see her and 664 00:31:58,509 --> 00:32:01,349 Speaker 2: hear her at some of my most vulnerable moments, at 665 00:32:01,389 --> 00:32:04,669 Speaker 2: some of Luna's most vulnerable moments, that she feels like 666 00:32:04,749 --> 00:32:06,949 Speaker 2: an extension of the family. And I don't think we 667 00:32:07,109 --> 00:32:11,349 Speaker 2: realize this until there is a mon as you say 668 00:32:11,349 --> 00:32:14,069 Speaker 2: with your example, I don't feel this about Miss Rachel, 669 00:32:14,069 --> 00:32:17,429 Speaker 2: but like of betrayal, where people then go, hang on, 670 00:32:17,589 --> 00:32:19,589 Speaker 2: You're not who I thought you were. And I wonder 671 00:32:19,589 --> 00:32:22,389 Speaker 2: if it's like if you have a nanny or an 672 00:32:22,629 --> 00:32:25,869 Speaker 2: early educator or even a teacher, like there is an 673 00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:31,029 Speaker 2: expectation that their political selves or whatever might be left 674 00:32:31,069 --> 00:32:37,469 Speaker 2: outside the classroom because there is this incredible, innocent, almost 675 00:32:37,549 --> 00:32:42,829 Speaker 2: quite simplistic and straightforward relationship with your child. But on 676 00:32:42,869 --> 00:32:47,549 Speaker 2: the Miss Rachel example, I think it feels so consistent 677 00:32:47,869 --> 00:32:50,869 Speaker 2: right like she has said that no child should have 678 00:32:50,949 --> 00:32:54,989 Speaker 2: their crucial brain development interrupted by trauma and whether you 679 00:32:54,989 --> 00:32:57,549 Speaker 2: want to talk about scale, and everyone has the right 680 00:32:57,669 --> 00:33:00,389 Speaker 2: to feel how they want to and not listen to 681 00:33:00,429 --> 00:33:02,989 Speaker 2: Miss Rachel if she doesn't feel like an extension of 682 00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:06,669 Speaker 2: your family anymore, but that does feel consistent with what 683 00:33:06,709 --> 00:33:09,549 Speaker 2: she's always done, and she's always, you know, encourage people 684 00:33:09,589 --> 00:33:12,189 Speaker 2: to donate to the food bank and make sure kids 685 00:33:12,189 --> 00:33:14,269 Speaker 2: have enough food. And I think that there were videos 686 00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:18,469 Speaker 2: or examples of kids in some of these instances watching 687 00:33:18,509 --> 00:33:21,549 Speaker 2: Miss Rachel, so to her, I think she probably felt 688 00:33:21,669 --> 00:33:25,229 Speaker 2: drawn into it as well because she had this presence. 689 00:33:25,789 --> 00:33:28,829 Speaker 3: I am a Miss Rachel household as well. We very 690 00:33:28,909 --> 00:33:32,189 Speaker 3: sincerely referred to her as the third parent in our household. 691 00:33:32,269 --> 00:33:34,109 Speaker 3: Can we step back, and I just want to ask 692 00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:36,229 Speaker 3: you both a quick question about her, because I'm not 693 00:33:36,269 --> 00:33:39,509 Speaker 3: familiar with her. She clearly is inspiring incredibly strong feelings 694 00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:42,349 Speaker 3: and people, both positive and negative. What is it about 695 00:33:42,349 --> 00:33:45,389 Speaker 3: her that broke through in twenty twenty and beyond that 696 00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:48,149 Speaker 3: was so different from all the other children's entertainment? For me, 697 00:33:48,349 --> 00:33:50,909 Speaker 3: it was that I had my daughter during COVID, So 698 00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:54,869 Speaker 3: Miss Rachel's voice face was with me in my darkest 699 00:33:54,869 --> 00:33:57,789 Speaker 3: moments quite literally, like in the dark with my daughter 700 00:33:57,909 --> 00:34:00,189 Speaker 3: when I couldn't settle her with you know, colic and 701 00:34:00,229 --> 00:34:02,989 Speaker 3: reflux and all the things. Miss Rachel was the answer 702 00:34:02,989 --> 00:34:06,909 Speaker 3: to that. So I think you tie her to yourself 703 00:34:06,949 --> 00:34:09,189 Speaker 3: in some sort of you know, she's my savior in 704 00:34:09,189 --> 00:34:09,909 Speaker 3: this situation. 705 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:13,309 Speaker 2: Interesting your example, right, because as you were saying, Amelia, so, 706 00:34:13,429 --> 00:34:15,749 Speaker 2: I think that she only started making these videos in 707 00:34:15,869 --> 00:34:19,829 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty nineteen, and then something that she 708 00:34:19,869 --> 00:34:23,349 Speaker 2: couldn't control, which was the pandemic, happened, and that is 709 00:34:23,389 --> 00:34:27,229 Speaker 2: when her star just rose enormously. 710 00:34:27,469 --> 00:34:30,669 Speaker 3: Why her as opposed to other children's entertainers, What was 711 00:34:30,709 --> 00:34:32,989 Speaker 3: it about her communication style? For instance? 712 00:34:33,309 --> 00:34:36,349 Speaker 2: I think it is about the fact that what she 713 00:34:36,589 --> 00:34:40,909 Speaker 2: does is educational. She has a master's degree in music education. 714 00:34:41,389 --> 00:34:45,029 Speaker 2: She sings, she's all about nunciation and that origin story 715 00:34:45,069 --> 00:34:47,109 Speaker 2: you told of how her son was one and didn't 716 00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:49,829 Speaker 2: have any words, yet she made these videos to help 717 00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:52,909 Speaker 2: him with language. And I think that, as we were 718 00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:54,909 Speaker 2: saying before, there's this sense that if a screen is on, 719 00:34:54,989 --> 00:34:57,869 Speaker 2: it should be enriching or it should be educational. It 720 00:34:57,949 --> 00:35:01,349 Speaker 2: was a guilt free way for people to have their 721 00:35:01,429 --> 00:35:02,309 Speaker 2: child exactly. 722 00:35:02,429 --> 00:35:05,589 Speaker 3: And my daughter learned sign language before she could speak 723 00:35:05,669 --> 00:35:08,749 Speaker 3: from Miss Rachel. We learned it from Miss Rachel. So 724 00:35:08,789 --> 00:35:11,309 Speaker 3: we started doing it. She was doing it and it 725 00:35:11,309 --> 00:35:13,989 Speaker 3: felt like, oh, at least if I've got the screen on. 726 00:35:14,109 --> 00:35:16,949 Speaker 3: As Jesse said, it's something useful. It's something that's helping 727 00:35:16,989 --> 00:35:19,589 Speaker 3: her with her speech. It's helping her with songs that 728 00:35:19,629 --> 00:35:22,229 Speaker 3: we can't remember from where we were gong. That I 729 00:35:22,269 --> 00:35:25,349 Speaker 3: think was the magnetism of her. I think that's the 730 00:35:25,389 --> 00:35:28,909 Speaker 3: missing puzzle piece I needed to understand this story because 731 00:35:29,709 --> 00:35:33,989 Speaker 3: the idea that she's helping children learn makes her very 732 00:35:34,029 --> 00:35:37,389 Speaker 3: different as a figure to someone like say Blippy. Yeah, 733 00:35:37,469 --> 00:35:41,429 Speaker 3: mister Blippy is not helping people children to learn. He's 734 00:35:41,629 --> 00:35:47,069 Speaker 3: largely cavorting through ridiculous scenarios and driving parents mad. And 735 00:35:47,149 --> 00:35:50,349 Speaker 3: I wonder if that's part of why a parents who 736 00:35:50,349 --> 00:35:53,269 Speaker 3: love Miss Rachel love her so much, and b why 737 00:35:53,389 --> 00:35:56,149 Speaker 3: she feels so strongly that there's a through line with 738 00:35:56,349 --> 00:35:58,869 Speaker 3: what she's doing to help children learn and how she's 739 00:35:58,869 --> 00:36:02,709 Speaker 3: communicating to their parents on Instagram about what she feels 740 00:36:02,749 --> 00:36:05,229 Speaker 3: as an urgent political situation that she wants them to 741 00:36:05,309 --> 00:36:05,829 Speaker 3: learn about. 742 00:36:06,109 --> 00:36:09,069 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really true. And I suppose if the children 743 00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:12,989 Speaker 2: are absorbing her through YouTube, then that feels like a 744 00:36:13,149 --> 00:36:17,589 Speaker 2: siloed experience. And then people, I guess are seeing that 745 00:36:17,709 --> 00:36:21,949 Speaker 2: this smiling, chirpy woman who not only taught my child, 746 00:36:22,029 --> 00:36:24,869 Speaker 2: but taught me a lot about parenting, taught me about 747 00:36:24,989 --> 00:36:27,349 Speaker 2: enunciating or what words to do, or are we doing colors? 748 00:36:27,389 --> 00:36:30,069 Speaker 2: Are we doing shapes? Are we're doing all of these things. 749 00:36:30,989 --> 00:36:33,869 Speaker 2: What's difficult about this, you know, crisis as well, is 750 00:36:33,909 --> 00:36:35,829 Speaker 2: that what someone says and what someone hears are not 751 00:36:35,989 --> 00:36:38,549 Speaker 2: often the same thing because it is a very loaded 752 00:36:38,589 --> 00:36:40,269 Speaker 2: There's a lot of history that a lot of context, 753 00:36:40,429 --> 00:36:42,949 Speaker 2: is a lot of trauma, and so I think that 754 00:36:42,949 --> 00:36:48,229 Speaker 2: that too is people feeling betrayed by something that has 755 00:36:48,549 --> 00:36:49,189 Speaker 2: been shared. 756 00:36:49,429 --> 00:36:51,869 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we expect a lot more from 757 00:36:52,029 --> 00:36:54,469 Speaker 3: anyone in the public eye now than we ever did. 758 00:36:54,509 --> 00:36:56,509 Speaker 3: I don't know if we would have known the personal 759 00:36:56,589 --> 00:36:59,149 Speaker 3: lives of the og Wiggles, that alone their stance on 760 00:36:59,269 --> 00:37:02,469 Speaker 3: geopolitical issues back when we were growing up, but so 761 00:37:02,549 --> 00:37:05,269 Speaker 3: true now there's so much more information out there, and 762 00:37:05,309 --> 00:37:08,549 Speaker 3: I think it is definitely worse for women in the 763 00:37:08,589 --> 00:37:11,669 Speaker 3: public eye. Like Taylor's, which was criticized for not backing 764 00:37:11,709 --> 00:37:15,509 Speaker 3: Kamala Harris quick enough in the US election. Chris Brown 765 00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:18,109 Speaker 3: is currently on a world tour even though he's found 766 00:37:18,149 --> 00:37:20,669 Speaker 3: guilty of domestic violence charges. We don't seem bothered by 767 00:37:20,669 --> 00:37:23,429 Speaker 3: what his views are on anything like there's just a 768 00:37:23,549 --> 00:37:25,509 Speaker 3: very double standard there for women. 769 00:37:25,749 --> 00:37:29,789 Speaker 2: That's true. I do think though, that we've got the 770 00:37:29,789 --> 00:37:35,389 Speaker 2: wiggles on sometimes and my obsession with Emma Unlockey's marriage 771 00:37:35,629 --> 00:37:38,309 Speaker 2: has just gone to ridiculous. And it wasn't just me, 772 00:37:38,349 --> 00:37:41,069 Speaker 2: it was also Luca. We had a week where Luna 773 00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:43,549 Speaker 2: was sick and it was on constantly, and I swear 774 00:37:43,549 --> 00:37:45,749 Speaker 2: we were hallucinating. We were in a weird state and 775 00:37:45,789 --> 00:37:47,869 Speaker 2: like we needed the wedding photos, and then we needed 776 00:37:47,909 --> 00:37:49,749 Speaker 2: to know why they broke up. And now Lockie has 777 00:37:49,749 --> 00:37:52,069 Speaker 2: a new family and who is she? And I can 778 00:37:52,109 --> 00:37:54,509 Speaker 2: tell you what Emma did her PhD in And then 779 00:37:54,549 --> 00:37:55,909 Speaker 2: I had to go down the route of like is 780 00:37:55,949 --> 00:37:57,389 Speaker 2: it a wig or is it a real head? Like 781 00:37:57,829 --> 00:38:00,149 Speaker 2: if I saw Emma walking down the street, I'd be like, hey, 782 00:38:00,189 --> 00:38:02,469 Speaker 2: am I, how are you going? Like nice yellow bow? 783 00:38:02,549 --> 00:38:05,669 Speaker 2: I would just have so much She feels like a 784 00:38:05,749 --> 00:38:09,429 Speaker 2: member of my family, which is unlike anyone else I 785 00:38:09,429 --> 00:38:10,069 Speaker 2: consume through us. 786 00:38:11,389 --> 00:38:14,069 Speaker 3: I'm also thinking about the fact that for Miss Rachel, 787 00:38:14,269 --> 00:38:17,869 Speaker 3: she has the YouTube channel for kids, She's not posting 788 00:38:17,909 --> 00:38:20,189 Speaker 3: this on the YouTube channel, She's posting this on the 789 00:38:20,269 --> 00:38:23,189 Speaker 3: Instagram and last time I checked, most three year olds 790 00:38:23,189 --> 00:38:27,509 Speaker 3: don't have Instagram, so there is a difference between those platforms. 791 00:38:27,549 --> 00:38:29,789 Speaker 3: On the other hand, to argue with myself, when I 792 00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:32,309 Speaker 3: found out that Taking care of Babies was a Trump supporter, 793 00:38:32,669 --> 00:38:34,949 Speaker 3: she had never told me that on the Taking care 794 00:38:34,949 --> 00:38:38,709 Speaker 3: of Babies sleep Instagram account, So why was it my business? 795 00:38:38,749 --> 00:38:40,949 Speaker 3: Why did I care if she was doing it over 796 00:38:40,989 --> 00:38:42,789 Speaker 3: on her separate personal account. 797 00:38:43,029 --> 00:38:46,469 Speaker 2: I think it's because you start to get your guard 798 00:38:46,589 --> 00:38:50,149 Speaker 2: up about whether that is informing the information or the 799 00:38:50,189 --> 00:38:52,629 Speaker 2: content that she's providing to the children. I think that 800 00:38:52,629 --> 00:38:55,909 Speaker 2: that's what you start to go, are you brainwashing my child? 801 00:38:55,989 --> 00:38:57,989 Speaker 2: And then you start to get like a bit paranoid 802 00:38:57,989 --> 00:39:00,429 Speaker 2: about it. And it's interesting that miss Rachel has had 803 00:39:00,429 --> 00:39:04,389 Speaker 2: to turn off comments on Instagram and YouTube so under 804 00:39:04,429 --> 00:39:08,229 Speaker 2: her teeth Brushing song, the level of trolling was so 805 00:39:08,389 --> 00:39:10,909 Speaker 2: bad that she had to just go, no, I'm not 806 00:39:10,949 --> 00:39:11,469 Speaker 2: taking this on. 807 00:39:11,789 --> 00:39:11,989 Speaker 1: Yeah. 808 00:39:11,989 --> 00:39:14,709 Speaker 3: There is though, that fear, isn't there that maybe this 809 00:39:14,829 --> 00:39:18,509 Speaker 3: sleep advice is tinged with maganists makes you sort of 810 00:39:18,549 --> 00:39:19,789 Speaker 3: start thinking about. 811 00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:24,309 Speaker 2: All of it exactly. It's time for recommendation, Stacy, what 812 00:39:24,389 --> 00:39:25,149 Speaker 2: have you got for us? 813 00:39:25,269 --> 00:39:28,189 Speaker 3: I feel quite smug about this recommendation, so imparting it 814 00:39:28,229 --> 00:39:30,069 Speaker 3: so you can all feel smug when you recommend it 815 00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:32,469 Speaker 3: to someone else. So my daughter gets a free book 816 00:39:32,509 --> 00:39:36,829 Speaker 3: every month from Dolly Parton. What the Dolly Parton sends 817 00:39:36,869 --> 00:39:39,229 Speaker 3: my well, not personally, I imagine she has someone at 818 00:39:39,229 --> 00:39:41,589 Speaker 3: the postal service that does this for her, but she 819 00:39:41,949 --> 00:39:44,189 Speaker 3: has a free book gifting service. 820 00:39:44,229 --> 00:39:45,149 Speaker 1: They have it all around the world. 821 00:39:45,189 --> 00:39:47,469 Speaker 3: It's in the US, UK, everywhere, and you can just 822 00:39:47,509 --> 00:39:49,869 Speaker 3: sign your child up and they'll send you out in 823 00:39:49,909 --> 00:39:53,229 Speaker 3: the mail a age appropriate book for your child each month. 824 00:39:53,749 --> 00:39:54,669 Speaker 2: That's brilliant. 825 00:39:55,229 --> 00:39:55,789 Speaker 1: It's the best. 826 00:39:55,789 --> 00:39:58,309 Speaker 3: If my daughter loves getting mail every month, I love 827 00:39:58,389 --> 00:40:00,269 Speaker 3: that I don't have to buy her a book every month. 828 00:40:00,349 --> 00:40:01,949 Speaker 3: Like it's the best service. So you just have to 829 00:40:01,989 --> 00:40:05,109 Speaker 3: find out if it's in your little area. It's called 830 00:40:05,309 --> 00:40:08,829 Speaker 3: Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. I love Dolly Parton. 831 00:40:09,309 --> 00:40:09,989 Speaker 1: She's good. 832 00:40:10,549 --> 00:40:11,429 Speaker 2: She's a very good ad. 833 00:40:11,469 --> 00:40:12,949 Speaker 1: You couldn't love her more. And then she goes and 834 00:40:12,989 --> 00:40:13,349 Speaker 1: does that. 835 00:40:13,509 --> 00:40:14,709 Speaker 2: Amelia, what's your recommendation? 836 00:40:15,229 --> 00:40:17,509 Speaker 3: My recommendation is to do with learning how to read. 837 00:40:17,869 --> 00:40:20,069 Speaker 3: I have a child, two children learning how to read, 838 00:40:20,189 --> 00:40:26,029 Speaker 3: and the books that the school sends home are interminably boring. 839 00:40:26,389 --> 00:40:30,429 Speaker 3: And I'm not inspiring a love of reading. My brother, 840 00:40:30,429 --> 00:40:33,269 Speaker 3: who lives in the UK, turned me on to Julia 841 00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:37,909 Speaker 3: Donaldson's Songbirds Phonics storytelling collection. Julia Donaldson, you may know 842 00:40:38,109 --> 00:40:42,869 Speaker 3: from such classics as Gruffalo and Zog. She has written 843 00:40:42,869 --> 00:40:47,029 Speaker 3: sixty books where almost every word is phonically decodable, and 844 00:40:47,069 --> 00:40:49,069 Speaker 3: they are also somehow interesting stories. 845 00:40:49,149 --> 00:40:51,029 Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean phonically, oh. 846 00:40:51,069 --> 00:40:52,949 Speaker 1: Jesse, I can't get into it with you. 847 00:40:52,909 --> 00:40:53,909 Speaker 3: You wouldn't understand it. 848 00:40:53,909 --> 00:40:55,309 Speaker 1: But we're not at the phonic stage. 849 00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:59,069 Speaker 3: You won't understand. But the point is they're books for 850 00:40:59,189 --> 00:41:01,309 Speaker 3: kids learning how to read that are actually fun for 851 00:41:01,349 --> 00:41:01,909 Speaker 3: them to read. 852 00:41:02,189 --> 00:41:05,149 Speaker 2: Oh, I love it all right, Okay. My recommendation is 853 00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:08,429 Speaker 2: similar to yours, Stacey. There are kind of different versions 854 00:41:08,469 --> 00:41:10,309 Speaker 2: in different states, but look up to see if there's 855 00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:12,869 Speaker 2: one near you. But in Sydney there's one called Bubbadesk 856 00:41:12,909 --> 00:41:15,749 Speaker 2: and I am recommending this place because this is where 857 00:41:15,949 --> 00:41:18,869 Speaker 2: my twin sister essentially just wrote her book, and it 858 00:41:18,989 --> 00:41:21,549 Speaker 2: is a coworking space with more and more people sort 859 00:41:21,549 --> 00:41:24,509 Speaker 2: of free lancing or even if you're on maternity leave 860 00:41:24,709 --> 00:41:27,669 Speaker 2: or you work three days a week or whatever, and 861 00:41:27,949 --> 00:41:30,109 Speaker 2: there is a day or an afternoon where you need 862 00:41:30,149 --> 00:41:33,429 Speaker 2: to get some work done and you don't have childcare options, 863 00:41:33,989 --> 00:41:37,269 Speaker 2: you can take your child to Bubbadesk. There's another one 864 00:41:37,309 --> 00:41:37,589 Speaker 2: in no. 865 00:41:38,029 --> 00:41:39,709 Speaker 3: You're going to say what I think you're going to say, 866 00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:42,669 Speaker 3: and you can drop the child off and work. 867 00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:45,069 Speaker 2: Yes, so it's like a child like they're right there, 868 00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:47,829 Speaker 2: they're upstairs. You get a little monitor so you can 869 00:41:47,909 --> 00:41:50,149 Speaker 2: just see what they're doing. They have like a system 870 00:41:50,189 --> 00:41:53,949 Speaker 2: where they'll be like, Luna's playing with a block, Luna 871 00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:55,229 Speaker 2: just date her lunch and I'm like. 872 00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:55,909 Speaker 3: Whes. 873 00:41:59,309 --> 00:42:05,269 Speaker 2: Having tunea morning bullshit, And then they'll have like you can, yeah, 874 00:42:05,309 --> 00:42:07,789 Speaker 2: get the little baby monitor, see what she's doing. If 875 00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:09,429 Speaker 2: you want, you can go up and check on them. 876 00:42:09,629 --> 00:42:12,589 Speaker 2: I often find better noted. It's like mums here what 877 00:42:13,149 --> 00:42:16,629 Speaker 2: But it's brilliant and it's all parents that are kind 878 00:42:16,669 --> 00:42:19,149 Speaker 2: of doing it. There's even the Bubbajesque that I went to. 879 00:42:19,189 --> 00:42:20,989 Speaker 2: There was a gym attached to it because they were like, 880 00:42:21,029 --> 00:42:21,469 Speaker 2: you can go to. 881 00:42:21,709 --> 00:42:23,709 Speaker 1: I don't have any excuses. 882 00:42:23,149 --> 00:42:25,669 Speaker 2: Like I know. So it's really really good and there 883 00:42:25,709 --> 00:42:27,269 Speaker 2: is an equal amount what I love about it too, 884 00:42:27,309 --> 00:42:30,109 Speaker 2: equal amount of dads and mums there. So look up 885 00:42:30,149 --> 00:42:32,709 Speaker 2: at co working space with kids I didn't even know 886 00:42:32,789 --> 00:42:35,829 Speaker 2: they existed. Thank you so much for joining us today. 887 00:42:36,029 --> 00:42:36,749 Speaker 1: We will be. 888 00:42:36,749 --> 00:42:43,869 Speaker 2: Back next Saturday. Bye.