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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Technological advances rarely arrived with out trade offs. From social

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Speaker 2: media to AI, every innovation seems to spark debate, and

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Speaker 2: now our smartphones are again under the microscope with recent

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Speaker 2: claims they may be changing the way we fall in love.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Quikie. I'm Grace Rubrey. Before we dive

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Speaker 2: into today's discussion, here's Claire Murphy with the latest from

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Speaker 2: the Quikie newsroom.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Grace. National Cabinet we're meeting Canberra today discuss fuel,

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Speaker 1: with several initiatives being considered, including free nationwide public transport.

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Speaker 1: State and territory leaders and business groups have called for

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Speaker 1: a national approach to plot a path through the crisis.

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Speaker 1: As petrol prices surge and hundreds of service stations run

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Speaker 1: dry due to the US and Israel led war in Iran.

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Speaker 1: Australia's fuel stocks remain at normal levels, but fears of

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Speaker 1: future shortages and price spikes caused by the ongoing blockade

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Speaker 1: of the Strait of Home have spurred users to bog

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Speaker 1: by petrol and diesel, leading to localized shortfalls. Victoria and

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Speaker 1: Tasmania have announced temporary fair waivers for public transport users,

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Speaker 1: which prompted the Greens to urge the Commonwealth to help

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Speaker 1: fund other states to make their networks free. Also, Iran

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Speaker 1: says it is ready to respond to a US ground attack,

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Speaker 1: accusing Washington of preparing a land assault while seeking negotiations.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, the foreign ministers of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 1: Turkey in Egypt were set to meet in Islamabad on

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Speaker 1: Sunday to discuss ways to halt the month long US

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Speaker 1: Israeli war on Iran, which has killed thousands of people

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Speaker 1: and disrupted global energy supplies. The war, launched on February

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Speaker 1: twenty eight, with US and Israeli strikes on Iran, has

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Speaker 1: spread across the Middle East, with Yemen's Iran aligned hooties

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Speaker 1: on Saturday launching their first attacks on Israel since the

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Speaker 1: start of the conflict. The strikes point to a potential

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Speaker 1: new threat to global shipping, already hit by the effective

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Speaker 1: closure of the state of Humus, a conduit for about

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Speaker 1: one fifth of globeble oil and liquefied natural gas supplies.

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Speaker 1: Washington has dispatched thousands of marines to the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: with the first of two contingents arriving on Friday a

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Speaker 1: board an amphibious assault ship. Ozzie sam Kerr has shrugged

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Speaker 1: off the Matilda's defeat in the Asian carp to score

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Speaker 1: a goal for her English side Chelsea. The Matilda skipper

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Speaker 1: scored in the first half, then linked up with Australian

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Speaker 1: team mate Elie Carpenter to create the Blues late winner

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Speaker 1: for Shokey Nuskin in a thrilling four to three victory

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Speaker 1: at their King's Meadow home. The goal, which sparked a

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Speaker 1: joyful celebration from the Chelsea coach, ensured the champions just

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Speaker 1: about managed to cling onto their distant hopes of retaining

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Speaker 1: the crown, but importantly boosts their push for Champions League qualification.

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Speaker 1: Britney Spears has reportedly remained sober since her DUI arrest.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this month, the forty four year old singer was

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Speaker 1: seen driving erratically. A caller to nine one one, describing

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Speaker 1: her vehicle as being all over the road. Officers tracked

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Speaker 1: her car before an hour long pursuit that ended with

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Speaker 1: Spears being taken into custody on suspicion of driving under

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Speaker 1: the u S influence. Police sources said Spears appeared disorientated

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Speaker 1: when approached, and she was booked before being released following

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Speaker 1: the incident. Her team insisted the arrest was a wake

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Speaker 1: up call that would lead to long overdue change in

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Speaker 1: her life. This seems to be holding true, at least

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Speaker 1: in the short term, with sources saying Spears has been

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Speaker 1: sober ever since. Friends star Lisa Kudro has admitted she's

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Speaker 1: only now catching up on the show that shot her

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Speaker 1: her fame in the nineties. Cudro, who played Phoebe Buffet,

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Speaker 1: didn't have time back when they were filming to watch

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Speaker 1: full episodes, but says she does now, but is also

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Speaker 1: too embarrass to watch it in front of anyone.

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Speaker 3: I'm embarrassed. What's it like now when you watch it back?

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Speaker 4: Hilarious?

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Speaker 3: I feel it.

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Speaker 4: I'm watching, I say her when it's me, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and I go.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 2: If my husband comes in to get something, he's like, oh.

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Speaker 4: You're watching your show.

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Speaker 2: We'll weep. Then he watches a little. It's funny.

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Speaker 1: After a push for more Ossies to headline the AFL

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Speaker 1: Grand Final show, there are reports icon Kylie Minogue will

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Speaker 1: star at the twenty twenty six Premiership game. Minogue was

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Speaker 1: also mentioned for the twenty twenty three Grand Final performance

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Speaker 1: before the show eventually went to US rockers Kiss for

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Speaker 1: those close to the league say she's going to be

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Speaker 1: announced later this week for this year's event. If she

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Speaker 1: does take to the stage, she'll be the first Ossie

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Speaker 1: headliner since Eskimo Joe in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Claire. Next, are phones interfering with how our brains

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Speaker 2: fall in love? For years, we've been talking about how

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Speaker 2: phones are changing the way we communicate. Dating apps influence

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Speaker 2: how we present ourselves and how quickly we judge potential partners.

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Speaker 2: Research shows that fubbing, which is ignoring someone to check

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Speaker 2: your phone, is linked to lower relationships, satisfaction, and feelings

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Speaker 2: of emotional neglect. Other studies suggest that frequent phone use

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Speaker 2: around the partner can reduce closeness and even personal wellbeing.

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Speaker 2: Some psychologists argue that we're forming attachment style bonds with

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Speaker 2: our devices, treating our phones almost like signals and others.

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Speaker 2: We're a recent interview with the American psychiatrist known as

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Speaker 2: doctor Kay on the Andrew Huberman podcast, Now it.

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Speaker 3: Goes instead further.

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Speaker 2: These habits, these notifications, these devices themselves maybe interfering with

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Speaker 2: how we fall in love.

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Speaker 4: We know that one of the reasons that it's harder

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Speaker 4: to fall in love is because the feeling of being

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Speaker 4: in love. You know, that feeling of like we're just

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Speaker 4: seeing someone and like you feel amazing, and like just

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Speaker 4: their presence makes you feel amazing, floods your brain with dopamine.

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Speaker 4: So as our dopamine system gets messed up by social media,

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Speaker 4: it has literally become neurochemically harder to fall in love.

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Speaker 4: So now when I have patients, I tell them go

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Speaker 4: for a walk for one hour before you go on

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Speaker 4: a date and stay off of any technology. Literally your

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Speaker 4: neuroscientific capacity to fall in love is increased.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting idea, a simple way to help us

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Speaker 2: fall in love by experiencing the world more clearly. To

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Speaker 2: explore it further, we spoke to psychologist Khalie Dober. Is

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Speaker 2: there any evidence to suggest that phones and notifications are

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Speaker 2: actually interrupting any of these chemical reactions?

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Speaker 6: Evidence shows us that phone notifications are interrupting how dopamine

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Speaker 6: is released for those who are neurotypical and neurodivergent, it

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Speaker 6: looks a bit different. But how much dopamine is released

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Speaker 6: when we are scrolling our phones is very different to

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Speaker 6: how much dopamine is released. To say, again, if we're

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Speaker 6: reading a book or going on a nice hike, low

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Speaker 6: sustained release of dopamine is what's really good for us,

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Speaker 6: which is what we get from doing something that is

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Speaker 6: not phone related or social media related. But we get

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Speaker 6: dumps of dopamine, which isn't really that great for our

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Speaker 6: brain or our mood when we are online.

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Speaker 2: So this clip suggests the clip from the podcast suggests

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Speaker 2: that to take a walk. We've heard these things before,

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Speaker 2: like taking a digital detox, which is essentially what he's

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Speaker 2: saying is detox before you go on a date, so

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Speaker 2: you're not confused or thinking that there's something lacking. Do

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Speaker 2: you agree with this idea.

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Speaker 6: I think that's a wonderful idea. I've never actually thought

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Speaker 6: or heard about it before, and I think that if

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Speaker 6: you are serious about giving this person your total attention

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Speaker 6: and giving it a real go, that's a fantastic idea.

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Speaker 6: Or doing something again that adjusts your dopamine in a

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Speaker 6: way that is more sustained than the endless scroll.

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Speaker 2: Is there any evidence that technology can actually help I don't.

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Speaker 2: I think I want to avoid us banks, so do

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Speaker 2: Gloom and like technology is evil, which there are so

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Speaker 2: many problems, as you've said that it's designed almost like

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Speaker 2: poker machines. But are there things about technology that do

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Speaker 2: help in psychologically for how we connect with people.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely. I also don't want to be really binary. I mean,

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Speaker 6: I love social media. I find it really great to

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Speaker 6: stay connected to friends and family that way and to

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Speaker 6: read interesting things. I think when you're exploring your relationship

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Speaker 6: to social media or your phone, I think being mindful

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Speaker 6: about how much time and energy you give social media

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Speaker 6: is really important because our brains have a limited amount

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Speaker 6: of cognitive reserves, and each time you go online it

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Speaker 6: is drained. So knowing that, knowing that our brains have

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Speaker 6: a limited amount of energy per day, think about how

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Speaker 6: much time you would like to give social media, you know,

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Speaker 6: ideally before you pick up your phone first in the morning,

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Speaker 6: because that is a big drain on your reserves, and

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Speaker 6: maybe instead you text a friend or you do other things.

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Speaker 6: But social media can be amazing to remain connected and

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Speaker 6: to find out about things that you can do socially

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Speaker 6: with friends. So I don't think it's all bad or

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Speaker 6: all good. I think it is a tool, and if

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Speaker 6: we use it as such, and use it, you know,

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Speaker 6: in moderation. I think that we can have the best

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Speaker 6: of both.

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Speaker 2: Worlds to take us from the theory into the practical

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Speaker 2: and learn how to stay connected both as humans and intimately.

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Speaker 2: We got some advice from counselor and sex and relationship

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Speaker 2: therapist Lisa toorney, Lisa, you've seen this video. I want

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Speaker 2: to get your initial thoughts on it.

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Speaker 3: It makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 7: I've just seen the more excerpt I haven't seen before interview,

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Speaker 7: but thinking about how dopamine works, and you know, the

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Speaker 7: kind of reward part of our.

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Speaker 3: Brain that sort of kicks in, and it makes sense.

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Speaker 7: He's saying to, you know, take an hour or so

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Speaker 7: away from social media before you meet somebody.

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Speaker 2: I think there are two sides to the conversation. There's

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Speaker 2: also like the our individual behaviors and our phones and

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Speaker 2: how they're changing us. But then how things are changing

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Speaker 2: us also within a relationship by being on our phones.

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Speaker 2: So do you see any phone related issues that show

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Speaker 2: up for you in the work that you do.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, we see disconnection mostly people who are on their phone,

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Speaker 7: perhaps with their partner in bed at nice and you know,

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Speaker 7: rather than turning towards their partner, they're sort of turning.

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Speaker 3: Away from them because they're just connected and they're looking.

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Speaker 7: At social media, or they're not talking to each other

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Speaker 7: or perhaps no engaging in intimacy. And another thing that

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Speaker 7: might present is the boundaries be blurred around emotional cheating

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Speaker 7: and people using their phones to be chatting with people

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Speaker 7: and maybe blurring boundaries within their relationship about what might

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Speaker 7: be cheating.

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Speaker 2: In terms of liking someone's photo or the accounts that

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Speaker 2: people follow.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, well there's that, but also if you're maybe chatting

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Speaker 7: to a colleague at work and you know that chat,

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Speaker 7: is that becoming a bit flirty as well, and some

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Speaker 7: start to feel who being secure and wondering you know,

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Speaker 7: if there's something going on there. And yeah, they're definitely

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Speaker 7: what people who people.

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Speaker 3: Choose to follow on socials as wealth. So that might be.

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Speaker 7: Something that's a matter of conflict and what we try

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Speaker 7: to say to people.

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Speaker 3: We've had those conversations with each.

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Speaker 7: Other to explore what feels okay in terms of who

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Speaker 7: you're following.

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Speaker 3: And the kind of engagement that you're having with people online.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned physical intimacy before. How do you think this,

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Speaker 2: you know, the disconnection from your partner whether you're just

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Speaker 2: you know, disassociating, or you also said they're turning away

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Speaker 2: from each other and people are being less physically intimate.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 3: Because there's a lot of reasons for that.

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Speaker 7: I think that certainly with the immediate gratification that you're

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Speaker 7: getting and those dopamine that you're getting, possibly from using

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Speaker 7: stuff online, you might not you might not be getting

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Speaker 7: that with your partner as much. And that's the stuff

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Speaker 7: we have to keep working on in relationships that comes

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Speaker 7: up in therapy constantly.

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Speaker 3: Or relationship therapists. I think we'll be talking about that.

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Speaker 7: You need to be more connecting, and I think that

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Speaker 7: there's that real danger of just disconnecting through Yeah, you're

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Speaker 7: not engaging with each other.

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Speaker 2: People say that, oh, we're not connecting, we're not connecting.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the strategies that you say to

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Speaker 2: your clients to help them connect?

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Speaker 7: Definitely put the phone down first and foremost, and rely

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Speaker 7: limit that use when you're around each other, especially around

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Speaker 7: things like meal times. Just look around a restaurant. Now

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Speaker 7: do you see someone out at a day in the

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Speaker 7: restaurant and the phones are there and they're you know,

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Speaker 7: faith up.

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Speaker 5: And I just think, oh wow, hell we And that's

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Speaker 5: a significant one, right to actually say put that phone away,

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Speaker 5: not that you know, not only just churn it on

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Speaker 5: to sione or office, put it away and be really.

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Speaker 3: Present and engaged with someone.

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Speaker 7: And there's a really importance to that because that tells

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Speaker 7: someone that you value them and that you appreciate them

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Speaker 7: and the time that you're having with each other, and

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Speaker 7: that you've got my undivided attention.

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Speaker 2: How do we circuit break these pulses that we have

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Speaker 2: for you know, at home wanting to relax, or if

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Speaker 2: we're on a date and we want to pick up

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Speaker 2: our phones as soon as they go to the bathroom

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Speaker 2: and we're not sitting in the chemicals that real world

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Speaker 2: conversations give us. What are some of the ways that

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Speaker 2: we can circu break to stop addiction.

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Speaker 7: Well, I think firstly, we have to be mindful that

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Speaker 7: we're doing it, because I think there's a mindlessness even

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Speaker 7: just recently in the yoga class or I'm sitting there

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Speaker 7: and people on their phones right up to.

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Speaker 3: The second we need to lay down, and the second

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Speaker 3: the class is over, the phone is in the hand. Again.

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Speaker 7: I've been really I think they're just observing our behavior

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Speaker 7: is the first part of that to acknowledge that I'm

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Speaker 7: doing something automatically and without intention.

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Speaker 3: So I think intentionality is crucial in being able.

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Speaker 7: To stop our behavior. We need to think about that

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Speaker 7: and go do I have a problem here?

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Speaker 3: How do I have a dependency?

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Speaker 7: What stopped me from just sitting here in this restaurant,

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Speaker 7: observing people and not needing to reach for that time?

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Speaker 3: Is it I'm looking for a hit, a dopamine hit?

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Speaker 3: Is it the instant gratification? What am I seeking when

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Speaker 3: I'm reaching for.

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Speaker 7: That rather than thinking intentionally about how can I not

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Speaker 7: do that? And what are the reasons why I feel

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Speaker 7: I need to do it in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 2: us today. Before you head off, make sure you're following

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Speaker 2: notifications turned on so you never miss an episode like

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Speaker 2: this afternoon's news update. The Quikie is produced by me

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Speaker 2: Grace Ruverrey Taylor Strano, Georgy Page, and Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: MoMA. Mea acknowledges the traditional lowners of land and waters

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on