1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,125 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. 2 00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:18,525 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,765 --> 00:00:19,245 Speaker 1: Hey there. 5 00:00:19,285 --> 00:00:22,405 Speaker 3: Before we start today's episode, I just want to say 6 00:00:22,605 --> 00:00:25,685 Speaker 3: that you are going to be hearing from some wonderful 7 00:00:25,725 --> 00:00:28,245 Speaker 3: Mama Mea voices over the next few weeks as I 8 00:00:28,365 --> 00:00:32,005 Speaker 3: work on another project. Hollyway and wright Claire Stevens, a 9 00:00:32,125 --> 00:00:35,205 Speaker 3: Nama Brown, who is the executive producer of this show, 10 00:00:35,365 --> 00:00:37,525 Speaker 3: are all going to be sitting in my chair for 11 00:00:37,565 --> 00:00:41,325 Speaker 3: a few weeks and doing the same wonderful interviews that 12 00:00:41,365 --> 00:00:43,485 Speaker 3: you know and love from No Filter. There are some 13 00:00:43,525 --> 00:00:46,925 Speaker 3: great conversations coming your way about red and green flags 14 00:00:46,925 --> 00:00:52,925 Speaker 3: in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, 15 00:00:53,445 --> 00:00:55,645 Speaker 3: and more. You'll be hearing from me soon. 16 00:00:56,485 --> 00:00:56,845 Speaker 2: Enjoy. 17 00:00:57,845 --> 00:01:01,325 Speaker 1: I went to a friend's fortieth I got really pissed 18 00:01:01,765 --> 00:01:04,605 Speaker 1: and went outside for a cigarette because when I drank, 19 00:01:04,685 --> 00:01:08,005 Speaker 1: I smoked, I was wearing high heels, which as a 20 00:01:08,085 --> 00:01:10,685 Speaker 1: mum you don't do very often more. And I crouched 21 00:01:10,685 --> 00:01:13,845 Speaker 1: down to put out my cigarette, was pissed and sway 22 00:01:13,885 --> 00:01:16,845 Speaker 1: and I fell forward, but I didn't have any reflexes. 23 00:01:16,925 --> 00:01:19,765 Speaker 1: And so I landed face first onto a concrete driveway 24 00:01:20,365 --> 00:01:23,845 Speaker 1: and cut my lip open, cut my nose, blood everywhere, 25 00:01:24,325 --> 00:01:26,285 Speaker 1: and my friend took me home and put me to bed, 26 00:01:27,165 --> 00:01:29,565 Speaker 1: and I woke up the next morning to scarlet. My 27 00:01:29,685 --> 00:01:32,285 Speaker 1: daughter was five at the time, standing beside my bed, 28 00:01:32,365 --> 00:01:36,645 Speaker 1: and she said, Mummy, Mummy, what happened to your face? 29 00:01:38,405 --> 00:01:42,325 Speaker 1: And Oh, Holly, in that moment, I just felt such shame, 30 00:01:42,525 --> 00:01:44,885 Speaker 1: such disgust, such self loathing. 31 00:01:48,925 --> 00:01:51,685 Speaker 2: So, Mama, Maya, you're listening to No Filter, and I'm 32 00:01:51,805 --> 00:01:55,245 Speaker 2: Holly Wainwright sitting in for mea Friedman, and I am 33 00:01:55,325 --> 00:01:58,765 Speaker 2: welcoming you back to regular programming. I hope that you've 34 00:01:58,845 --> 00:02:02,165 Speaker 2: enjoyed our hot pod summer. But now we are off 35 00:02:02,285 --> 00:02:05,045 Speaker 2: sun lounger and we are back at work. How are 36 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:08,725 Speaker 2: you going so far in twenty twenty five? Did you 37 00:02:08,805 --> 00:02:12,725 Speaker 2: survive that party season, that holiday season? Did you choose 38 00:02:12,765 --> 00:02:15,045 Speaker 2: a word of the year that might lead you into 39 00:02:15,085 --> 00:02:18,805 Speaker 2: a sober, curious place. Perhaps you're one of the many 40 00:02:18,845 --> 00:02:22,485 Speaker 2: people who chose to get through the holidays sober, or 41 00:02:22,525 --> 00:02:25,765 Speaker 2: maybe you're one of the people who didn't and woke 42 00:02:25,845 --> 00:02:29,045 Speaker 2: up after Christmas and New Year and all that January 43 00:02:29,205 --> 00:02:31,645 Speaker 2: fun going, You know what, I really need to address 44 00:02:31,685 --> 00:02:35,605 Speaker 2: my drinking wherever you might be on that spectrum from 45 00:02:35,645 --> 00:02:39,445 Speaker 2: mocktail to cocktails at five, this conversation is for you 46 00:02:39,605 --> 00:02:42,485 Speaker 2: because my guest is author and health and well being 47 00:02:42,565 --> 00:02:46,205 Speaker 2: coach Sarah russ Batch, and she's lived it all. Sarah's 48 00:02:46,245 --> 00:02:49,325 Speaker 2: written a book called Beyond Booze, How to Create a 49 00:02:49,405 --> 00:02:53,565 Speaker 2: Life you Love Alcohol Free, because she has lived through 50 00:02:53,685 --> 00:02:57,125 Speaker 2: her own what she describes as a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol. 51 00:02:57,485 --> 00:02:59,445 Speaker 2: But she's at great pains to point out you don't 52 00:02:59,445 --> 00:03:02,245 Speaker 2: have to be hitting rock bottom to question your relationship 53 00:03:02,605 --> 00:03:05,605 Speaker 2: with drink. She's not a preacher, She's not all luxury 54 00:03:05,645 --> 00:03:07,885 Speaker 2: about these things. She's not here to judge you or 55 00:03:07,925 --> 00:03:10,445 Speaker 2: how much you are or aren't drinking. She just wants 56 00:03:10,525 --> 00:03:13,045 Speaker 2: to talk to us about something that she calls gray 57 00:03:13,165 --> 00:03:16,165 Speaker 2: area drinking and to let us know that if you're 58 00:03:16,205 --> 00:03:19,765 Speaker 2: thinking that you would like to reconsider booze, but you 59 00:03:19,885 --> 00:03:21,805 Speaker 2: don't know quite what life would be like on the 60 00:03:21,845 --> 00:03:24,405 Speaker 2: other side, well, she wants to tell you that it's 61 00:03:24,445 --> 00:03:28,925 Speaker 2: pretty good. Here's Sarah. Sarah, I heard that when you 62 00:03:29,405 --> 00:03:34,125 Speaker 2: were drinking, so before you gave up drinking, entirely. You 63 00:03:34,445 --> 00:03:39,485 Speaker 2: had rules around alcohol, and they were, I don't drink Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 64 00:03:40,005 --> 00:03:43,085 Speaker 2: I don't drink before five pm. I don't drink white 65 00:03:43,085 --> 00:03:46,445 Speaker 2: wine on an empty stomach. Now those rules around alcohol 66 00:03:46,565 --> 00:03:50,965 Speaker 2: sound very sensible to me, But you say that actually 67 00:03:51,605 --> 00:03:55,925 Speaker 2: setting rules like that about alcohol can be a red flag. 68 00:03:56,045 --> 00:03:56,725 Speaker 2: Tell me why. 69 00:03:57,405 --> 00:03:59,405 Speaker 1: So it's really important to put this into context. And 70 00:03:59,445 --> 00:04:01,485 Speaker 1: I think there are some people who have their set 71 00:04:01,565 --> 00:04:03,845 Speaker 1: rules and that just those are the rules that they 72 00:04:03,885 --> 00:04:05,965 Speaker 1: live by, and that's that. But I think that for 73 00:04:06,045 --> 00:04:08,085 Speaker 1: a lot of people who fall into the gray area 74 00:04:08,205 --> 00:04:12,685 Speaker 1: drinking category, we have rules around our drinking then, and 75 00:04:12,725 --> 00:04:16,245 Speaker 1: they really really govern our thoughts around alcohol. We're thinking 76 00:04:16,285 --> 00:04:18,685 Speaker 1: about it a lot, and then we often find ways 77 00:04:18,725 --> 00:04:21,605 Speaker 1: to justify why we can break those rules. So I 78 00:04:21,685 --> 00:04:25,165 Speaker 1: lived with this constant chatter in my head where it 79 00:04:25,205 --> 00:04:27,005 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I don't drink Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, But 80 00:04:27,045 --> 00:04:29,125 Speaker 1: it is Wednesday, and I am seeing my friend tonight, 81 00:04:29,165 --> 00:04:30,765 Speaker 1: so at least I'm not drinking at home, So maybe 82 00:04:30,765 --> 00:04:32,165 Speaker 1: I could have a drink tonight, and then I won't 83 00:04:32,205 --> 00:04:34,165 Speaker 1: drink tomorrow because I'm staying home tomorrow, so I could 84 00:04:34,205 --> 00:04:36,405 Speaker 1: have Thursday's drink on Wednesday. I won't drink on Thursday, 85 00:04:36,405 --> 00:04:38,325 Speaker 1: and then my units are all as they should be. 86 00:04:38,725 --> 00:04:42,405 Speaker 1: And there was this constant negotiation, this constant chatter, whereas 87 00:04:42,445 --> 00:04:45,565 Speaker 1: people who are not gray area drinkers, they don't have 88 00:04:45,605 --> 00:04:47,845 Speaker 1: that chatter, Holly, because they're just like, I fancy a 89 00:04:47,885 --> 00:04:49,925 Speaker 1: drink and I'll have a drink. I don't fancy a drink, 90 00:04:49,965 --> 00:04:51,485 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to have a drink, And that 91 00:04:51,645 --> 00:04:51,965 Speaker 1: is it. 92 00:04:52,685 --> 00:04:56,205 Speaker 2: That is so interesting, I think, and leads us obviously 93 00:04:56,365 --> 00:04:58,925 Speaker 2: to the question and the main point of a lot 94 00:04:58,965 --> 00:05:03,085 Speaker 2: of your work, which is gray area drinking. So explain 95 00:05:03,205 --> 00:05:06,525 Speaker 2: to me what the gray area drinker is, because obviously 96 00:05:06,565 --> 00:05:11,045 Speaker 2: I think we'd all be familiar with what we problematic drinking, 97 00:05:11,485 --> 00:05:13,925 Speaker 2: but where that line is, we don't know what's a 98 00:05:14,045 --> 00:05:15,285 Speaker 2: gray area drinker. 99 00:05:15,525 --> 00:05:18,525 Speaker 1: So a gray area drinker sits in between the space 100 00:05:18,845 --> 00:05:23,365 Speaker 1: of very severe problematic drinking, so someone who has physical 101 00:05:23,405 --> 00:05:26,645 Speaker 1: dependency on alcohol and needs to have medical support to 102 00:05:26,685 --> 00:05:29,445 Speaker 1: withdraw from alcohol, So someone who might be a ten 103 00:05:29,485 --> 00:05:31,325 Speaker 1: out of ten on a scale of one to ten 104 00:05:31,925 --> 00:05:34,445 Speaker 1: and the other extreme being the one, so someone who 105 00:05:34,445 --> 00:05:36,965 Speaker 1: doesn't drink, or someone who has a glass of champagne 106 00:05:36,965 --> 00:05:39,325 Speaker 1: at a wedding once a year, and that's their only 107 00:05:39,925 --> 00:05:42,845 Speaker 1: use of alcohol. Gray area drinking is what's in the middle. 108 00:05:43,365 --> 00:05:45,485 Speaker 1: So we've passed the point of being a take it 109 00:05:45,565 --> 00:05:49,645 Speaker 1: or leave it drinker, but we're not reaching or meeting 110 00:05:49,725 --> 00:05:54,365 Speaker 1: the criteria for physical dependence on alcohol. We probably don't 111 00:05:54,445 --> 00:05:58,565 Speaker 1: drink every single day. We can take short breaks from alcohol. 112 00:05:59,045 --> 00:06:03,605 Speaker 1: We don't meet that stereotypical definition of an alcoholic that 113 00:06:03,685 --> 00:06:06,525 Speaker 1: people have of Oh, if you're an alcoholic, you're drinking 114 00:06:06,525 --> 00:06:08,845 Speaker 1: in the morning, you're drinking every day. You've lost your job, 115 00:06:08,885 --> 00:06:11,165 Speaker 1: you've lost relationship, you've lost your home. You're sitting on 116 00:06:11,205 --> 00:06:13,165 Speaker 1: a park bench drinking out of a brown paper bag 117 00:06:13,205 --> 00:06:16,165 Speaker 1: all day. Gray area drinkers are in that middle. I 118 00:06:16,205 --> 00:06:20,325 Speaker 1: would say about a three or a four to maybe 119 00:06:20,365 --> 00:06:23,245 Speaker 1: a seven, seven and a half eight on that scale 120 00:06:23,285 --> 00:06:26,245 Speaker 1: would be gray area drinkers. And Holly, it's estimated two 121 00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:29,165 Speaker 1: billion people across the world sit in the gray area. 122 00:06:29,245 --> 00:06:30,845 Speaker 1: Because I don't know about you, but I don't know 123 00:06:30,885 --> 00:06:32,965 Speaker 1: many people that are either at the ten out of 124 00:06:32,965 --> 00:06:34,765 Speaker 1: ten or the one out of ten. Most people are 125 00:06:34,805 --> 00:06:35,925 Speaker 1: sitting somewhere in the middle. 126 00:06:37,325 --> 00:06:40,445 Speaker 2: And that was you, right, So to get to a 127 00:06:40,485 --> 00:06:43,405 Speaker 2: little bit of why this has become such a big 128 00:06:43,445 --> 00:06:47,165 Speaker 2: part of your life. You can't obviously ignore your story 129 00:06:47,205 --> 00:06:50,765 Speaker 2: of gray area drinking. Can you tell me a little 130 00:06:50,765 --> 00:06:53,845 Speaker 2: bit about your relationship with alcohol and how it began. 131 00:06:54,045 --> 00:06:56,925 Speaker 2: You and I are both originally from England, as I'm 132 00:06:56,965 --> 00:07:00,605 Speaker 2: sure listeners can tell by our voices and we I 133 00:07:00,645 --> 00:07:03,645 Speaker 2: think it's quite fair to say that England and with 134 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:07,045 Speaker 2: similar age, we probably both grew up in a drinking culture, 135 00:07:07,245 --> 00:07:12,285 Speaker 2: right and Anglo Australia is also strong on his drinking 136 00:07:12,405 --> 00:07:15,285 Speaker 2: culture and it can often feel like, well, this is 137 00:07:15,325 --> 00:07:18,165 Speaker 2: just what we do. Can you tell me a bit 138 00:07:18,205 --> 00:07:20,645 Speaker 2: about your experiences with alcohol? 139 00:07:21,085 --> 00:07:24,445 Speaker 1: So I started drinking at fourteen. That was quite standard 140 00:07:24,445 --> 00:07:26,045 Speaker 1: for where I grew up in the North of England, 141 00:07:26,045 --> 00:07:26,645 Speaker 1: in Manchester. 142 00:07:27,085 --> 00:07:32,085 Speaker 2: My parents I'm from Manchester too. We were probably park drinking, 143 00:07:32,285 --> 00:07:34,165 Speaker 2: not that far from each other at some point. 144 00:07:34,165 --> 00:07:37,445 Speaker 1: We're probably passed like one of the local roller rinks. 145 00:07:37,925 --> 00:07:41,485 Speaker 1: So yeah, that was my initiation into alcohol, and I 146 00:07:41,485 --> 00:07:43,645 Speaker 1: think prior to that, you know, looking back, mum and 147 00:07:43,765 --> 00:07:47,125 Speaker 1: dad had a very active social life. So mom and 148 00:07:47,245 --> 00:07:49,605 Speaker 1: dad often had dinner parties. And I grew up in 149 00:07:49,605 --> 00:07:51,965 Speaker 1: Scotland before we moved to Manchester, when I was thirteen, 150 00:07:52,005 --> 00:07:54,885 Speaker 1: So there was often parties with men drunken, men in 151 00:07:54,965 --> 00:07:58,885 Speaker 1: kilts wandering around my house like pissed and happy and laughing. 152 00:07:59,045 --> 00:08:02,125 Speaker 1: And little Sarah grew up with this very strong, ingrained 153 00:08:02,125 --> 00:08:05,005 Speaker 1: belief from a very young age that what adults do 154 00:08:05,125 --> 00:08:08,205 Speaker 1: to have fun is get pissed and drink alcohol. And 155 00:08:08,285 --> 00:08:10,325 Speaker 1: that was what I saw, that was what I witnessed. 156 00:08:10,325 --> 00:08:13,005 Speaker 1: So for me growing up, it was never a case 157 00:08:13,045 --> 00:08:16,045 Speaker 1: of if I would drink, it was when I would drink. 158 00:08:16,445 --> 00:08:18,925 Speaker 1: And moving from Scotland to England at thirteen was a 159 00:08:18,965 --> 00:08:20,965 Speaker 1: really difficult move to do. I had a very strong 160 00:08:21,005 --> 00:08:23,285 Speaker 1: Scottish accent, I was a bit overweight, I had a 161 00:08:23,365 --> 00:08:27,365 Speaker 1: terrible perm. We moved from a really standard high school 162 00:08:27,405 --> 00:08:29,925 Speaker 1: where there was no uniform to a very posh all 163 00:08:29,925 --> 00:08:32,365 Speaker 1: girls school where the girls were playing lacrosse and hockey, 164 00:08:32,405 --> 00:08:35,205 Speaker 1: and I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb. 165 00:08:35,365 --> 00:08:37,445 Speaker 1: So at fourteen, when we went down the park and 166 00:08:37,485 --> 00:08:40,405 Speaker 1: got pissed on our diamond white and old English cider 167 00:08:40,445 --> 00:08:43,765 Speaker 1: and Tenants super or whatever we could concoct in our parents' 168 00:08:43,805 --> 00:08:47,525 Speaker 1: drinks cabinets in the soda stream bottles, it was music 169 00:08:47,605 --> 00:08:50,445 Speaker 1: to my ears getting drunk with other girls because it 170 00:08:50,485 --> 00:08:52,725 Speaker 1: was the first time I felt like I fitted in. 171 00:08:53,325 --> 00:08:57,085 Speaker 1: I started getting this positive feedback. You're so fun when 172 00:08:57,125 --> 00:09:00,965 Speaker 1: you're drunk, You're hilarious when you're drunk. So when you 173 00:09:01,045 --> 00:09:04,845 Speaker 1: start getting that, you start to create this identity in 174 00:09:04,885 --> 00:09:07,805 Speaker 1: your mind of well, people really like me when I'm 175 00:09:07,885 --> 00:09:12,405 Speaker 1: drinking party girl. I'm the person that gets the party going, 176 00:09:12,605 --> 00:09:16,165 Speaker 1: and that became my identity. Then for years and years, 177 00:09:16,205 --> 00:09:18,845 Speaker 1: went to university, moved to London. My first job in 178 00:09:18,885 --> 00:09:22,005 Speaker 1: London was working in recruitment, where the fourth stage of 179 00:09:22,005 --> 00:09:25,045 Speaker 1: the interview process was doing shots of sambuca to see 180 00:09:25,045 --> 00:09:26,485 Speaker 1: how well you could handle your boots. 181 00:09:27,285 --> 00:09:27,925 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 182 00:09:28,005 --> 00:09:30,445 Speaker 1: Right, So this was the nineteen nineties in London. 183 00:09:30,565 --> 00:09:34,565 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not unfamiliar to me. I was, yeah going 184 00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:36,485 Speaker 2: to I mean, I don't know if the culture is 185 00:09:36,525 --> 00:09:38,845 Speaker 2: still the same now, but certainly in England in the 186 00:09:38,925 --> 00:09:42,125 Speaker 2: nineties and the noughdies, going to the pub after work 187 00:09:42,285 --> 00:09:44,805 Speaker 2: was just a standard thing and at lunch time after 188 00:09:45,005 --> 00:09:47,485 Speaker 2: and it was how you bonded. It was how you 189 00:09:47,645 --> 00:09:50,365 Speaker 2: made your friends. It was the living room that you 190 00:09:50,405 --> 00:09:53,605 Speaker 2: all gathered in like it was one hundred percent and 191 00:09:53,765 --> 00:09:56,245 Speaker 2: alcohol focused. Experience. 192 00:09:56,285 --> 00:09:58,725 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know, we've also got to remember this 193 00:09:58,845 --> 00:10:00,725 Speaker 1: was a time where there were real there was a 194 00:10:00,725 --> 00:10:04,205 Speaker 1: real shift in femininity and in female girl power. We 195 00:10:04,285 --> 00:10:06,325 Speaker 1: had the Spice girls, we had sex in the city. 196 00:10:06,405 --> 00:10:08,965 Speaker 1: We had women kind of going, we can get paced, 197 00:10:09,005 --> 00:10:11,125 Speaker 1: we can match the lad's pipe for pint down the 198 00:10:11,165 --> 00:10:14,485 Speaker 1: student union. We're making our own money. We don't need 199 00:10:14,525 --> 00:10:17,005 Speaker 1: a man to buy us a single drink for the night. 200 00:10:17,045 --> 00:10:19,045 Speaker 1: We'll go and get wrecked with our girlfriends and have 201 00:10:19,085 --> 00:10:21,525 Speaker 1: one night stands and do all the things. Because that 202 00:10:21,645 --> 00:10:23,765 Speaker 1: was that era that we were living in at the time, 203 00:10:23,845 --> 00:10:27,645 Speaker 1: and it was really hedonistic and in many ways it 204 00:10:27,685 --> 00:10:31,805 Speaker 1: was absolutely amazing. But it was also problematic, I think, 205 00:10:31,805 --> 00:10:33,845 Speaker 1: and that's why we do have a generation of now 206 00:10:33,885 --> 00:10:36,525 Speaker 1: women in their forties and fifties who have developed very 207 00:10:36,565 --> 00:10:41,485 Speaker 1: dysfunctional relationships with alcohol, because it was kind of ingrained 208 00:10:41,485 --> 00:10:44,485 Speaker 1: in us from that age that alcohol was just a 209 00:10:44,565 --> 00:10:48,045 Speaker 1: part of our life. It wasn't problematic. No one looked 210 00:10:48,085 --> 00:10:50,365 Speaker 1: at you and went, oh, she's drinking a lot, because 211 00:10:50,365 --> 00:10:52,725 Speaker 1: you just drank like everyone else around you. It was 212 00:10:52,845 --> 00:10:53,845 Speaker 1: just very standard. 213 00:10:54,005 --> 00:10:56,765 Speaker 2: When did you start to question your alcohol use? 214 00:10:57,285 --> 00:11:01,085 Speaker 1: Honestly, not until my forties right. 215 00:11:01,205 --> 00:11:04,245 Speaker 2: So that's a long time, right, and there's no judgment 216 00:11:04,245 --> 00:11:06,325 Speaker 2: in this sentence. I'm the same. I know many people 217 00:11:06,325 --> 00:11:09,245 Speaker 2: who are. So we basically start drinking in our teens 218 00:11:09,565 --> 00:11:14,565 Speaker 2: early is teens, and we're drinking pretty solidly, really pregnancies off, 219 00:11:14,645 --> 00:11:18,725 Speaker 2: perhaps the odd feb Fast or whatever, and then we're 220 00:11:18,765 --> 00:11:23,405 Speaker 2: here in our forties and beyond, and that's when you're like, oh, 221 00:11:23,445 --> 00:11:25,965 Speaker 2: and what began to make you question? 222 00:11:26,165 --> 00:11:29,605 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'd always thought, oh, I'm a bigger drinker 223 00:11:29,645 --> 00:11:31,925 Speaker 1: than other people, but actually saw that as a positive 224 00:11:32,325 --> 00:11:35,285 Speaker 1: rather than a negative. I had a big capacity for alcohol. 225 00:11:35,365 --> 00:11:37,685 Speaker 1: I didn't feel hung over the next day, lying in 226 00:11:37,725 --> 00:11:39,765 Speaker 1: bed vomiting like some of my friends would be. I 227 00:11:39,845 --> 00:11:41,645 Speaker 1: was like, right, come on, let's get going. I who 228 00:11:41,685 --> 00:11:43,965 Speaker 1: was hair of the dog type thing. And then we 229 00:11:44,005 --> 00:11:46,325 Speaker 1: moved to Australia and I had my kids some very 230 00:11:46,405 --> 00:11:49,165 Speaker 1: quick succession, and that was when alcohol went from being 231 00:11:49,245 --> 00:11:52,725 Speaker 1: something I did to socialize to being something I did 232 00:11:53,365 --> 00:11:56,565 Speaker 1: as a self soooth it became something that was like, 233 00:11:56,685 --> 00:11:59,325 Speaker 1: I was really lonely, I was really homesick. We'd moved 234 00:11:59,325 --> 00:12:01,365 Speaker 1: to the other side of the world. I wasn't working 235 00:12:01,445 --> 00:12:03,005 Speaker 1: for the first time in my life, and I'd got 236 00:12:03,045 --> 00:12:05,605 Speaker 1: a huge sense of identity and achievement for my career 237 00:12:05,645 --> 00:12:08,245 Speaker 1: in London. I was pure and carrots, I was going 238 00:12:08,285 --> 00:12:12,845 Speaker 1: to Baby Ryan time. I was desperately lonely, and alcohol 239 00:12:12,965 --> 00:12:15,845 Speaker 1: then became something to look forward to at that five 240 00:12:15,965 --> 00:12:18,205 Speaker 1: six o'clock when it was you know, witching, how I 241 00:12:18,245 --> 00:12:20,685 Speaker 1: have a glass of wine. And this coincided with mummy 242 00:12:20,725 --> 00:12:23,685 Speaker 1: wine culture, you know, all of that marketing that started 243 00:12:23,685 --> 00:12:27,045 Speaker 1: to happen for young mums around alcohol. And then it 244 00:12:27,085 --> 00:12:30,045 Speaker 1: was after my in my early forties, I just really 245 00:12:30,085 --> 00:12:33,365 Speaker 1: started to notice the impact that alcohol was having. I 246 00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:36,085 Speaker 1: couldn't bounce back like I used to. Even just a 247 00:12:36,125 --> 00:12:38,845 Speaker 1: couple of glasses of wine was really impacting my sleep, 248 00:12:38,885 --> 00:12:41,165 Speaker 1: and I was waking at three am. I started to 249 00:12:41,165 --> 00:12:43,605 Speaker 1: have really bad anxiety that I'd never had in my 250 00:12:43,645 --> 00:12:46,485 Speaker 1: life before, had never been that person that had anxiety. 251 00:12:46,485 --> 00:12:48,285 Speaker 1: And I remember going to my doctor and I was 252 00:12:48,405 --> 00:12:50,405 Speaker 1: crying and I was a mess, and I said to her, 253 00:12:51,605 --> 00:12:53,845 Speaker 1: I was shadow of myself. I don't know what's going 254 00:12:53,845 --> 00:12:56,645 Speaker 1: on with me. And at no point did she say 255 00:12:56,645 --> 00:12:58,445 Speaker 1: to me how much are you drinking? That the question 256 00:12:58,525 --> 00:13:02,125 Speaker 1: around alcohol didn't even come up. And yeah, I was 257 00:13:02,165 --> 00:13:05,405 Speaker 1: just given a prescription for anti anxiety meds and told 258 00:13:05,485 --> 00:13:07,765 Speaker 1: that I was just managing a lot. There was a 259 00:13:07,765 --> 00:13:09,285 Speaker 1: lot going on and these would help me. 260 00:13:10,165 --> 00:13:13,525 Speaker 2: Well, there's to just put a pause in there. There 261 00:13:13,645 --> 00:13:17,365 Speaker 2: was a lot going on. And it's interesting you might 262 00:13:17,485 --> 00:13:19,925 Speaker 2: use the phrase mummy wine culture, and I'm sure we'll 263 00:13:19,965 --> 00:13:22,725 Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit more, but to be 264 00:13:23,045 --> 00:13:26,965 Speaker 2: kind to the women who've kind of fallen into that. 265 00:13:27,045 --> 00:13:30,365 Speaker 2: You know, now we're very roundly dismissive of mummy wine culture, 266 00:13:30,365 --> 00:13:33,005 Speaker 2: and rightly so because it's proved to be dangerous. But 267 00:13:34,165 --> 00:13:37,485 Speaker 2: the world that you were just describing where you're suddenly isolated, 268 00:13:37,485 --> 00:13:39,325 Speaker 2: and that happens whether you've moved to the other side 269 00:13:39,325 --> 00:13:41,885 Speaker 2: of the world or not. Your life changes very suddenly. 270 00:13:42,725 --> 00:13:45,485 Speaker 2: There's suddenly everything you're doing is not about you. It's 271 00:13:45,485 --> 00:13:48,405 Speaker 2: about these people you're caring for. You're often on your 272 00:13:48,445 --> 00:13:51,645 Speaker 2: own a lot and for a lot of people, that 273 00:13:51,965 --> 00:13:56,645 Speaker 2: glass at that bad time glass of wine becomes there's 274 00:13:56,765 --> 00:13:59,485 Speaker 2: mummy me and then there's grown up me, and this 275 00:13:59,525 --> 00:14:03,765 Speaker 2: is the marker of it. And it feels like it's 276 00:14:03,845 --> 00:14:06,925 Speaker 2: your friend, right Like, it feels like it's your friend, 277 00:14:07,005 --> 00:14:08,925 Speaker 2: and it's the thing that will bond you to other 278 00:14:08,925 --> 00:14:14,405 Speaker 2: people all those things, and yet as you are discovering 279 00:14:14,525 --> 00:14:18,605 Speaker 2: it isn't really your friend. It's making things harder. Like 280 00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:20,805 Speaker 2: what do you say to women who are at that 281 00:14:20,845 --> 00:14:25,285 Speaker 2: particular moment who are like, but I, you know, I 282 00:14:25,365 --> 00:14:28,365 Speaker 2: need it to get me into that who I used 283 00:14:28,405 --> 00:14:30,565 Speaker 2: to be, you know, that kind of mindset. 284 00:14:30,685 --> 00:14:32,645 Speaker 1: It's a really valid point, and I think that more 285 00:14:32,685 --> 00:14:35,245 Speaker 1: needs to be said about the fact that the transition 286 00:14:35,405 --> 00:14:39,605 Speaker 1: into becoming a mother is not talked about enough in 287 00:14:39,725 --> 00:14:42,085 Speaker 1: terms of the mental side of things, where you do 288 00:14:42,205 --> 00:14:45,125 Speaker 1: go from you know, if you've had a career and 289 00:14:45,165 --> 00:14:47,445 Speaker 1: you've been working and you've been surrounded by your friends 290 00:14:47,445 --> 00:14:50,605 Speaker 1: all the time and having complete independence and spontaneity, to 291 00:14:50,685 --> 00:14:54,485 Speaker 1: suddenly having these little people that are relying on you. 292 00:14:55,165 --> 00:14:57,605 Speaker 1: It's almost as if you can't say that you're struggling 293 00:14:57,685 --> 00:15:00,765 Speaker 1: because everyone else out there is going it's amazing. Motherhood 294 00:15:00,845 --> 00:15:02,285 Speaker 1: is the best thing ever, and of course I'm not 295 00:15:02,325 --> 00:15:06,605 Speaker 1: saying it's not. But it's also freaking hard, and there 296 00:15:06,685 --> 00:15:10,205 Speaker 1: is so much shame that comes with feeling you're struggling 297 00:15:10,365 --> 00:15:12,485 Speaker 1: because on paper, I felt like I've got everything I 298 00:15:12,525 --> 00:15:15,325 Speaker 1: could ever have asked for. We've moved to Australia. I 299 00:15:15,405 --> 00:15:17,445 Speaker 1: live by the ocean. I've got a boy and a girl. 300 00:15:17,525 --> 00:15:19,605 Speaker 1: We are happy, and we are healthy, and I have 301 00:15:19,805 --> 00:15:23,485 Speaker 1: everything on paper. So why am I not happy? Why 302 00:15:23,565 --> 00:15:27,645 Speaker 1: is there something inside of me that is struggling with this? 303 00:15:27,725 --> 00:15:30,885 Speaker 1: And I felt shame around that, and I've spoken to 304 00:15:30,925 --> 00:15:33,845 Speaker 1: so many women who have felt the same. And that's 305 00:15:33,885 --> 00:15:37,365 Speaker 1: where alcohol. Alcohol is great at making those feelings go 306 00:15:37,445 --> 00:15:39,885 Speaker 1: away because it numbs us so we don't have to 307 00:15:39,885 --> 00:15:41,445 Speaker 1: feel them anymore. 308 00:15:41,365 --> 00:15:44,205 Speaker 2: Until maybe it becomes part of the shame. Right, So 309 00:15:44,285 --> 00:15:46,325 Speaker 2: is that what happened for you at that point? 310 00:15:46,605 --> 00:15:49,045 Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, And I say to everyone that becomes a 311 00:15:49,045 --> 00:15:52,405 Speaker 1: gray area drinker. Alcohol is not the problem. For many 312 00:15:52,445 --> 00:15:56,045 Speaker 1: of us. Alcohol is the solution to whatever the problem was. 313 00:15:56,125 --> 00:15:58,445 Speaker 1: And for most of the women that I work with, 314 00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:00,925 Speaker 1: I've got a group of twenty thousand and I asked 315 00:16:00,925 --> 00:16:03,325 Speaker 1: them why do you drink? Or why did you drink? 316 00:16:03,365 --> 00:16:06,685 Speaker 1: And there were three main reasons and it was awed 317 00:16:06,765 --> 00:16:08,085 Speaker 1: and stress and loneliness. 318 00:16:09,525 --> 00:16:16,325 Speaker 2: Right, that's so interesting. Boredom, stress and loneliness. So they're 319 00:16:16,365 --> 00:16:21,965 Speaker 2: not Those are all obviously negative emotions, negative places that 320 00:16:22,005 --> 00:16:25,245 Speaker 2: you want to escape from, and alcohol appears to be 321 00:16:25,325 --> 00:16:29,725 Speaker 2: the key to another place where you're not stressed, bored, 322 00:16:29,805 --> 00:16:30,165 Speaker 2: or lonely. 323 00:16:30,325 --> 00:16:34,045 Speaker 1: Right, And so because number one for stress, alcohol in 324 00:16:34,165 --> 00:16:38,245 Speaker 1: the short term gives us a depressing relaxant effect, so 325 00:16:38,285 --> 00:16:41,325 Speaker 1: it minimizes that stress with boredom, and I find with 326 00:16:41,445 --> 00:16:45,005 Speaker 1: boredom tends to be my ladies who have their kids 327 00:16:45,005 --> 00:16:47,885 Speaker 1: have started growing up. They don't need them so much anymore, 328 00:16:47,925 --> 00:16:50,205 Speaker 1: but they've given all of themselves and all of their 329 00:16:50,245 --> 00:16:53,165 Speaker 1: lives to raising these kids, managing the juggle of work 330 00:16:53,205 --> 00:16:55,885 Speaker 1: and home and everything. Suddenly they have all this time, 331 00:16:56,165 --> 00:16:57,685 Speaker 1: but they don't know what to do with it, because 332 00:16:57,725 --> 00:17:00,485 Speaker 1: they haven't focused on themselves for so long that this 333 00:17:00,645 --> 00:17:03,685 Speaker 1: time is almost daunting. So they drink because they don't 334 00:17:03,725 --> 00:17:05,605 Speaker 1: know what their help with hobbies are anymore, they don't 335 00:17:05,605 --> 00:17:08,325 Speaker 1: know what they love doing. And loneliness because we are 336 00:17:08,325 --> 00:17:12,925 Speaker 1: the most disconnected we have ever been as a human society, 337 00:17:13,085 --> 00:17:19,245 Speaker 1: and alcohol nuns uncomfortable emotions, and so for all of us, 338 00:17:19,645 --> 00:17:23,805 Speaker 1: alcohol was it might eventually become the problem, but initially 339 00:17:23,885 --> 00:17:26,885 Speaker 1: it's the solution to whatever the problem is, and we're 340 00:17:27,005 --> 00:17:30,485 Speaker 1: using it to escape that emotion. And so whenever we 341 00:17:30,565 --> 00:17:32,925 Speaker 1: do come to the point of wanting to look at okay, 342 00:17:32,925 --> 00:17:34,845 Speaker 1: how am I going to change my relationship with alcohol? 343 00:17:34,885 --> 00:17:36,365 Speaker 1: We have to look at why we're drinking in the 344 00:17:36,365 --> 00:17:36,965 Speaker 1: first place. 345 00:17:37,125 --> 00:17:40,605 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So back to your story. You are, as you 346 00:17:40,765 --> 00:17:44,645 Speaker 2: just described it, living this supposedly idyllic life, your relationship 347 00:17:44,645 --> 00:17:47,525 Speaker 2: with alcohol. Did it escalate or did just the effects 348 00:17:47,565 --> 00:17:50,285 Speaker 2: of it get more? I mean you were saying, how 349 00:17:50,325 --> 00:17:52,845 Speaker 2: you are anxiety and you're going to the doctor. What 350 00:17:52,925 --> 00:17:55,245 Speaker 2: happened next in terms of you beginning to put these 351 00:17:55,285 --> 00:17:59,245 Speaker 2: pieces together that maybe that alcohol was the problem. 352 00:17:59,365 --> 00:18:01,685 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wouldn't say it escalated. I went through 353 00:18:01,685 --> 00:18:05,085 Speaker 1: phases where there would be significant drinking and then phases 354 00:18:05,125 --> 00:18:07,525 Speaker 1: where I would cut back. But it was always there 355 00:18:07,645 --> 00:18:09,885 Speaker 1: in some way. And whenever there was a day where 356 00:18:09,925 --> 00:18:12,445 Speaker 1: things were really hard, there was a big stress at work, 357 00:18:12,525 --> 00:18:15,405 Speaker 1: there was a problem, my husband and I had an argument, 358 00:18:15,445 --> 00:18:18,725 Speaker 1: whatever it was, alcohol was always my solution. And then 359 00:18:18,765 --> 00:18:22,485 Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, I went to a friend's fortieth I 360 00:18:22,525 --> 00:18:26,405 Speaker 1: got really pissed and went outside for a cigarette because 361 00:18:26,485 --> 00:18:29,925 Speaker 1: when I drank, I smoked. I was wearing high heels, 362 00:18:29,925 --> 00:18:32,245 Speaker 1: which as a mum you don't do very often anymore, 363 00:18:32,405 --> 00:18:35,405 Speaker 1: and I crouched down to put out my cigarette was 364 00:18:35,605 --> 00:18:39,445 Speaker 1: pissed and I fell forward, but I didn't have any reflexes, 365 00:18:39,485 --> 00:18:42,285 Speaker 1: and so I landed face first onto a concrete driveway 366 00:18:42,885 --> 00:18:46,365 Speaker 1: and cut my lip open, cut my nose, blood everywhere, 367 00:18:46,885 --> 00:18:48,845 Speaker 1: and my friend took me home and put me to bed, 368 00:18:49,685 --> 00:18:52,085 Speaker 1: and I woke up the next morning to scarlet. My 369 00:18:52,205 --> 00:18:54,805 Speaker 1: daughter was five at the time, standing beside my bed, 370 00:18:54,885 --> 00:18:59,205 Speaker 1: and she said, Mummy, Mummy, what happened to your face? 371 00:19:00,925 --> 00:19:04,885 Speaker 1: And oh, Holly, in that moment, I just felt such shame, 372 00:19:05,085 --> 00:19:09,725 Speaker 1: such disgust, such self loathing. I lied to everybody and 373 00:19:09,765 --> 00:19:11,685 Speaker 1: told them that we'd been out on the boat and 374 00:19:11,765 --> 00:19:13,925 Speaker 1: the boat had gone over a big wave and I'd 375 00:19:13,965 --> 00:19:16,805 Speaker 1: fallen forward and landed on my face. Because I felt 376 00:19:16,885 --> 00:19:20,805 Speaker 1: so ashamed that I had this drinking accident. I was 377 00:19:20,845 --> 00:19:23,685 Speaker 1: forty one. I was like, what is wrong with me? 378 00:19:24,685 --> 00:19:27,725 Speaker 1: And I went to the chemist to get some I said, 379 00:19:27,725 --> 00:19:29,485 Speaker 1: I was like, I have to go to the school 380 00:19:29,485 --> 00:19:31,365 Speaker 1: concert this week. I have to go to all these things. 381 00:19:31,365 --> 00:19:33,885 Speaker 1: You have to make me look normal. So she gave 382 00:19:33,925 --> 00:19:36,645 Speaker 1: me all these ibuprofen and arnaca and all these things, 383 00:19:37,605 --> 00:19:41,445 Speaker 1: and then she slipped me a card for domestic violence. 384 00:19:42,565 --> 00:19:47,525 Speaker 1: Oh and honestly, light it was like someone that punched 385 00:19:47,525 --> 00:19:50,285 Speaker 1: me in the stomach, and I stood there and my 386 00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:52,845 Speaker 1: eyes just filled with tears, which probably made her think 387 00:19:52,885 --> 00:19:59,845 Speaker 1: even more that she had done the right thing. 388 00:20:00,885 --> 00:20:04,685 Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Sarah respect after this shortbreak 389 00:20:04,885 --> 00:20:13,165 Speaker 2: stay with us. It was like she sensed there was 390 00:20:13,245 --> 00:20:18,325 Speaker 2: some shame here or some distress here, that this wasn't 391 00:20:18,405 --> 00:20:22,085 Speaker 2: just an incident on the boat, but she misdiagnosed its source. 392 00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:25,965 Speaker 1: So I decided there and then I'm going to do 393 00:20:26,005 --> 00:20:28,845 Speaker 1: a twenty one day reset, because everyone says it takes 394 00:20:28,885 --> 00:20:30,805 Speaker 1: twenty one days to break a habit, and in my mind, 395 00:20:31,005 --> 00:20:33,685 Speaker 1: I just had a bad habit. I wasn't an alcoholic. 396 00:20:33,725 --> 00:20:36,005 Speaker 1: I'd googled that many times and I had, you know, 397 00:20:36,205 --> 00:20:38,565 Speaker 1: very happily said to myself, No, I do not fit 398 00:20:38,605 --> 00:20:40,885 Speaker 1: those criteria. I'm not an alcoholic, so therefore I don't 399 00:20:40,885 --> 00:20:42,445 Speaker 1: have a problem with alcohol. So it's fine. 400 00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,485 Speaker 2: Do you agree with the statement I've heard before, which is, 401 00:20:46,525 --> 00:20:49,845 Speaker 2: if you're googling am I drinking too much? Or am 402 00:20:49,925 --> 00:20:53,165 Speaker 2: I an alcoholic? Then the answer is almost certainly yes. 403 00:20:53,405 --> 00:20:55,445 Speaker 2: Do you agree with that statement or not? 404 00:20:55,525 --> 00:20:58,085 Speaker 1: So the first one that you said, yes, if you're 405 00:20:58,085 --> 00:21:00,805 Speaker 1: ever googling am I drinking too much? You're drinking too much? 406 00:21:01,205 --> 00:21:03,405 Speaker 1: Do I think I was an alcoholic? I don't like 407 00:21:03,485 --> 00:21:06,525 Speaker 1: that label. I don't like that term. It depends in 408 00:21:06,565 --> 00:21:09,325 Speaker 1: what definition you call an alcoholic. But yes, I was 409 00:21:09,365 --> 00:21:10,565 Speaker 1: definitely drinking too much. 410 00:21:10,645 --> 00:21:12,965 Speaker 2: I don't think it's even used anymore, is it. It's 411 00:21:12,965 --> 00:21:16,605 Speaker 2: not so it's now that you have alcohol use disorder? 412 00:21:16,685 --> 00:21:19,005 Speaker 2: Is that what it's called now? And do you is 413 00:21:19,005 --> 00:21:21,045 Speaker 2: there one of the reasons you don't like that term 414 00:21:21,485 --> 00:21:24,765 Speaker 2: because it's stigmatizing, but also because maybe it's a bit 415 00:21:24,805 --> 00:21:28,645 Speaker 2: too easy to not include yourself in it. Why do 416 00:21:28,685 --> 00:21:29,205 Speaker 2: you not like that? 417 00:21:29,445 --> 00:21:31,725 Speaker 1: I think it's really unhelpful because I think we've although 418 00:21:31,765 --> 00:21:33,925 Speaker 1: we don't use that term anymore, and we use alcohol 419 00:21:33,965 --> 00:21:36,685 Speaker 1: use disorder, as you said, and we call it mild, moderate, 420 00:21:36,805 --> 00:21:39,885 Speaker 1: or severe, and severe alcohol use disorder would be the 421 00:21:39,925 --> 00:21:42,485 Speaker 1: equivalent of what the old term would have been around 422 00:21:42,485 --> 00:21:46,125 Speaker 1: being an alcoholic, and most people's stereotypical view of an 423 00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:49,125 Speaker 1: alcoholic it's someone who drinks every day, someone who drinks 424 00:21:49,125 --> 00:21:51,125 Speaker 1: in the morning, someone who's lost their home. And I 425 00:21:51,205 --> 00:21:53,085 Speaker 1: didn't tick those boxes. And so because I. 426 00:21:53,205 --> 00:21:55,845 Speaker 2: Didn't, vodka hidden under the sun, they've got yet. 427 00:21:55,925 --> 00:21:59,045 Speaker 1: I wasn't drinking hard spirits. I wasn't Suellen from Dallas 428 00:21:59,045 --> 00:22:01,645 Speaker 1: sitting around in my silk neglige a all day drinking 429 00:22:01,725 --> 00:22:04,365 Speaker 1: hard liquor. I was a mum who drank a bit 430 00:22:04,405 --> 00:22:06,965 Speaker 1: too much a few nights a week. I wasn't what 431 00:22:07,045 --> 00:22:09,005 Speaker 1: I would have called an alcoholic. And so because I 432 00:22:09,045 --> 00:22:11,485 Speaker 1: didn't give myself that label, and there was no other 433 00:22:11,565 --> 00:22:13,165 Speaker 1: label that i'd heard of, because I hadn't heard of 434 00:22:13,205 --> 00:22:15,485 Speaker 1: gray area drinking, I just thought, well, I'm just a 435 00:22:15,485 --> 00:22:18,285 Speaker 1: social drinker, so I'm fine. Whereas that That's where I 436 00:22:18,285 --> 00:22:21,605 Speaker 1: think the term gray area drinking is helpful because it 437 00:22:21,725 --> 00:22:26,845 Speaker 1: gives people more like ownership of where they sit on 438 00:22:26,885 --> 00:22:28,245 Speaker 1: that alcohol scale. 439 00:22:28,565 --> 00:22:32,005 Speaker 2: So you going right twenty one days? So had you 440 00:22:32,085 --> 00:22:34,085 Speaker 2: tried that before? Or was this the first time you 441 00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:37,205 Speaker 2: decided to do a proper break other than pregnancy. 442 00:22:37,325 --> 00:22:39,245 Speaker 1: So yeah, I've done my breaks in pregnancy, and back 443 00:22:39,285 --> 00:22:41,325 Speaker 1: in London, i'd done a couple of dry januaries, but 444 00:22:41,405 --> 00:22:44,245 Speaker 1: this was my first break for quite some time. So 445 00:22:44,285 --> 00:22:46,685 Speaker 1: I did twenty one days and I sailed through it 446 00:22:46,765 --> 00:22:48,925 Speaker 1: like I was literally really, I think that I was 447 00:22:49,045 --> 00:22:53,645 Speaker 1: so ready for change that and this is twenty seventeen. 448 00:22:53,645 --> 00:22:56,365 Speaker 1: There wasn't the books, the podcast, the support communities that 449 00:22:56,405 --> 00:23:00,205 Speaker 1: there is now. I read Annie Grace's book This Naked Mind, 450 00:22:59,925 --> 00:23:04,805 Speaker 1: and that was it. And I got to twenty one days, 451 00:23:05,045 --> 00:23:10,285 Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe the difference, Like my anxiety much disappeared. 452 00:23:10,405 --> 00:23:13,885 Speaker 1: I was sleeping eight hours. I felt really positive, I 453 00:23:13,965 --> 00:23:17,005 Speaker 1: felt really energized. I was really making headway. I had 454 00:23:17,045 --> 00:23:19,525 Speaker 1: my own recruitment business here in Perth, and so I 455 00:23:19,525 --> 00:23:20,685 Speaker 1: got to twenty one days and I was like, well, 456 00:23:20,685 --> 00:23:23,805 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep going because I'm feeling fricking awesome. 457 00:23:24,245 --> 00:23:27,205 Speaker 1: So I kept going and got to one hundred days, 458 00:23:27,365 --> 00:23:29,485 Speaker 1: and do you know, in that three months, I made 459 00:23:29,525 --> 00:23:31,685 Speaker 1: more money in my recruitment business than I made in 460 00:23:31,725 --> 00:23:33,205 Speaker 1: the entire year the year before. 461 00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:37,165 Speaker 2: Because that's amazing. So the benefits were in all areas 462 00:23:37,165 --> 00:23:39,605 Speaker 2: of your life. I want to ask you about socially, 463 00:23:39,645 --> 00:23:41,685 Speaker 2: but maybe we'll get to that in a while, because 464 00:23:41,685 --> 00:23:43,605 Speaker 2: that's I always think that must be one of the 465 00:23:43,605 --> 00:23:45,725 Speaker 2: biggest barriers. So anyway, you get to one hundred days 466 00:23:46,085 --> 00:23:46,565 Speaker 2: and then I. 467 00:23:46,525 --> 00:23:49,405 Speaker 1: Go, well, I can't never drink again because that would 468 00:23:49,445 --> 00:23:52,205 Speaker 1: just be weird. Because I'm Sarah the party girl and 469 00:23:52,245 --> 00:23:56,125 Speaker 1: I hadn't done any work on myself to think about 470 00:23:56,165 --> 00:23:58,645 Speaker 1: identity shifts or anything else, which is a part of 471 00:23:58,765 --> 00:24:01,005 Speaker 1: changing our relationship with alcohol. But I didn't know that. 472 00:24:01,445 --> 00:24:05,045 Speaker 1: So I thought, I've done one hundred days. I clearly 473 00:24:05,405 --> 00:24:07,485 Speaker 1: don't have a problem with alcohol, because if I did, 474 00:24:07,485 --> 00:24:10,525 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been able to just do that. Everything's fine. 475 00:24:10,725 --> 00:24:12,885 Speaker 1: I've now reset. So now I'm going to be a normal, 476 00:24:12,885 --> 00:24:14,765 Speaker 1: moderate drinker, and I'll just be someone that goes and 477 00:24:14,805 --> 00:24:16,405 Speaker 1: has a glass of wine every now and then like 478 00:24:16,485 --> 00:24:19,565 Speaker 1: other people, and everything will be good. And so that 479 00:24:19,685 --> 00:24:21,325 Speaker 1: first night, I remember going out for dinner with my 480 00:24:21,365 --> 00:24:23,405 Speaker 1: best friend and my husband and her husband, and I 481 00:24:23,445 --> 00:24:25,565 Speaker 1: had a glass of wine and I was sat there going, oh, 482 00:24:25,605 --> 00:24:28,685 Speaker 1: look at me, I am a reform drinker. I had 483 00:24:28,685 --> 00:24:30,965 Speaker 1: a glass of wine, didn't want any more, felt okay, 484 00:24:31,045 --> 00:24:35,205 Speaker 1: went home next day super proud of myself, and within 485 00:24:35,205 --> 00:24:37,085 Speaker 1: a month I was back to drinking how I had 486 00:24:37,125 --> 00:24:39,925 Speaker 1: been before. It crept up slowly. There was always another 487 00:24:39,965 --> 00:24:42,165 Speaker 1: reason to justify it. Was like, as soon as I'd 488 00:24:42,205 --> 00:24:45,085 Speaker 1: opened the door and inch, it flew open a mile 489 00:24:45,405 --> 00:24:47,525 Speaker 1: and I was shocked. 490 00:24:47,925 --> 00:24:51,125 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that's because I think we're in 491 00:24:51,205 --> 00:24:54,445 Speaker 2: terms of the stories we tell ourselves about alcohol. You know, 492 00:24:54,485 --> 00:24:56,165 Speaker 2: we just talked about some of them. What a problem 493 00:24:56,285 --> 00:24:59,365 Speaker 2: drinker looks like? One of them is also, can you 494 00:24:59,445 --> 00:25:01,845 Speaker 2: just have a couple and stop That's another one of 495 00:25:01,885 --> 00:25:05,605 Speaker 2: those stories we tell ourselves. Or we say, I'm not 496 00:25:05,605 --> 00:25:10,005 Speaker 2: an addictive personality. She over there definitely an addictive personality 497 00:25:10,045 --> 00:25:13,805 Speaker 2: because she can't stop it too. Do you think that's true? 498 00:25:13,965 --> 00:25:17,125 Speaker 2: Do you think moderation can work for some people and 499 00:25:17,165 --> 00:25:19,125 Speaker 2: some people are just not built for it, or do 500 00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:21,245 Speaker 2: you think moderation is another one of those kind of 501 00:25:21,805 --> 00:25:24,565 Speaker 2: traps that we we fall into. 502 00:25:25,125 --> 00:25:29,005 Speaker 1: Some people will always happily moderate some I've got a 503 00:25:29,005 --> 00:25:30,885 Speaker 1: friend who is just a take it or leave it drinker. 504 00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:32,645 Speaker 1: She's a two on that scale of one to ten. 505 00:25:32,765 --> 00:25:34,925 Speaker 1: You say to her, hey, han, what can I get 506 00:25:34,965 --> 00:25:37,245 Speaker 1: you from the bar? And She'll be like, do I 507 00:25:37,285 --> 00:25:39,045 Speaker 1: want a whine? Or do I want a diet coke? 508 00:25:39,685 --> 00:25:42,885 Speaker 1: You know, alcoholist doesn't? It just doesn't feature for her. 509 00:25:43,285 --> 00:25:47,005 Speaker 1: I always say, if you've crossed the line and gone 510 00:25:47,085 --> 00:25:49,325 Speaker 1: from being a take it or leave it drinker to 511 00:25:49,405 --> 00:25:53,245 Speaker 1: a gray area drinker, you've then created neural pathways in 512 00:25:53,325 --> 00:25:57,205 Speaker 1: your brain that associate certain things with alcohol. So when 513 00:25:57,205 --> 00:25:59,765 Speaker 1: I'm stressed, I have alcohol. When I'm tired, I have alcohol. 514 00:25:59,845 --> 00:26:02,325 Speaker 1: When the kids are driving me bonkers, I have alcohol. 515 00:26:02,405 --> 00:26:04,965 Speaker 1: Those neural pathways don't disappear no matter how long you 516 00:26:05,085 --> 00:26:07,525 Speaker 1: take off. And that was what I found, was that 517 00:26:07,685 --> 00:26:10,165 Speaker 1: as soon as I'd opened that door a tiny bit, 518 00:26:10,405 --> 00:26:14,085 Speaker 1: the neural pathways almost started firing up again. And then 519 00:26:14,125 --> 00:26:15,925 Speaker 1: it was like, oh, you're stressed, you must have a drink. 520 00:26:16,005 --> 00:26:17,765 Speaker 1: Or it's Friday, so you must have a drink. And 521 00:26:17,885 --> 00:26:21,365 Speaker 1: all of those associations come back. And I have supported 522 00:26:21,565 --> 00:26:25,325 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of women now, and I see it 523 00:26:25,445 --> 00:26:28,565 Speaker 1: day after day after day that people think, Okay, I've 524 00:26:28,725 --> 00:26:32,045 Speaker 1: taken a break, I've reset. Now I'll be able to moderate, 525 00:26:32,725 --> 00:26:36,485 Speaker 1: and it often doesn't happen, don't. I can't think of 526 00:26:36,525 --> 00:26:39,365 Speaker 1: anyone actually who I know who's gone from being a 527 00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:42,365 Speaker 1: gray area drinker to being someone that is just a 528 00:26:42,445 --> 00:26:44,205 Speaker 1: complete take it or leave it drinker. 529 00:26:44,405 --> 00:26:48,325 Speaker 2: Yeah right, okay, So then at this point you're back 530 00:26:48,405 --> 00:26:52,245 Speaker 2: drinking as you were before. Was it an obvious given 531 00:26:52,365 --> 00:26:56,045 Speaker 2: the good experience you'd had of sobriety, Was it an 532 00:26:56,085 --> 00:27:00,325 Speaker 2: obvious decision now too? I need to actually become sober. 533 00:27:00,565 --> 00:27:02,885 Speaker 1: Oh no, I was in denial because and I kind 534 00:27:02,885 --> 00:27:05,285 Speaker 1: of shoved away all the thoughts and all those little 535 00:27:05,325 --> 00:27:08,205 Speaker 1: voices going you were so much happier when you were sober. 536 00:27:08,245 --> 00:27:09,845 Speaker 1: Everything was so much better when you so But I 537 00:27:09,885 --> 00:27:11,845 Speaker 1: just pushed all of that away and I just had 538 00:27:11,885 --> 00:27:15,685 Speaker 1: then two years that followed of taking breaks, going back 539 00:27:15,725 --> 00:27:20,085 Speaker 1: to drinking, taking breaks, going back to drinking, And finally 540 00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:22,885 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, a dear friend of mine said to me, 541 00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:26,765 Speaker 1: why do you keep going back to it when you 542 00:27:27,005 --> 00:27:30,245 Speaker 1: always tell me that everything in your life is better 543 00:27:30,285 --> 00:27:32,925 Speaker 1: without alcohol? You show you are the mum you want 544 00:27:32,925 --> 00:27:34,405 Speaker 1: to be, You are the wife you want to be. 545 00:27:34,565 --> 00:27:37,525 Speaker 1: You are happier, your health is better, your smashing goals 546 00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:41,085 Speaker 1: at work, your mental health improves. Why are you fighting 547 00:27:41,205 --> 00:27:43,365 Speaker 1: so hard to keep it in your life? 548 00:27:43,965 --> 00:27:47,485 Speaker 2: That's so interesting? Why are you fighting to keep it? 549 00:27:47,845 --> 00:27:48,805 Speaker 2: What was your answer? 550 00:27:49,925 --> 00:27:51,005 Speaker 1: I hung up on her. 551 00:27:52,685 --> 00:27:53,965 Speaker 2: Concerning conversation. 552 00:27:54,205 --> 00:27:59,045 Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, who asked you? Friend? Yeah? And so yeah, 553 00:27:59,765 --> 00:28:01,965 Speaker 1: I didn't want to hear it. That what she said 554 00:28:02,005 --> 00:28:04,085 Speaker 1: to me never went away. And that was in the March, 555 00:28:04,605 --> 00:28:07,765 Speaker 1: and I then set a date for the April, and 556 00:28:07,805 --> 00:28:11,645 Speaker 1: I said I'm going to take a year off because 557 00:28:11,645 --> 00:28:13,765 Speaker 1: I've never done a year before, I'd done two stints 558 00:28:13,765 --> 00:28:16,325 Speaker 1: of one hundred days. I've done a few thirty days, 559 00:28:16,565 --> 00:28:18,285 Speaker 1: but said I'm going to do a year. But in 560 00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:20,645 Speaker 1: my heart of hearts, Holly, I knew that that would 561 00:28:20,685 --> 00:28:24,445 Speaker 1: be it because she'd just put up a mirror to me, 562 00:28:24,845 --> 00:28:27,245 Speaker 1: and everything she said made sense, and I had proved 563 00:28:27,285 --> 00:28:30,845 Speaker 1: to myself time and time again that moderation was never 564 00:28:30,885 --> 00:28:32,925 Speaker 1: going to be an option for me, so that wasn't 565 00:28:33,165 --> 00:28:35,885 Speaker 1: There was no third option, So the two options were 566 00:28:35,925 --> 00:28:38,965 Speaker 1: simply carry on drinking like you are, which is causing 567 00:28:39,005 --> 00:28:41,605 Speaker 1: you more and more anxiety the older you get, impacting 568 00:28:41,645 --> 00:28:43,285 Speaker 1: your sleep. I was at the point where even two 569 00:28:43,325 --> 00:28:46,285 Speaker 1: glasses of wine, I was taking half a sleeping tablet 570 00:28:46,605 --> 00:28:49,325 Speaker 1: to override the three am wake up that would come 571 00:28:49,325 --> 00:28:51,325 Speaker 1: from the two glasses of wine. So you can imagine 572 00:28:51,325 --> 00:28:53,685 Speaker 1: how you feel in the morning that half a bottle 573 00:28:53,725 --> 00:28:57,245 Speaker 1: of wine had sleeping tablet. And then you can't show 574 00:28:57,325 --> 00:29:00,285 Speaker 1: up as your best self and be the mom, the worker, 575 00:29:00,405 --> 00:29:02,165 Speaker 1: the friend, the wife you want to be when you're 576 00:29:02,205 --> 00:29:05,885 Speaker 1: just feeling ooh like I never felt hungover, but I 577 00:29:06,005 --> 00:29:11,125 Speaker 1: just felt four or five that at ten most days, Yeah. 578 00:29:10,325 --> 00:29:12,085 Speaker 2: I want to go back to your friend who held 579 00:29:12,125 --> 00:29:14,325 Speaker 2: up the mirror, because one of the things I really 580 00:29:14,565 --> 00:29:16,205 Speaker 2: would love us to dive into is kind of the 581 00:29:16,285 --> 00:29:20,565 Speaker 2: social aspect of being the person who stops because you've 582 00:29:20,605 --> 00:29:22,725 Speaker 2: I've heard you say that Gray Area drinkers hang out 583 00:29:22,725 --> 00:29:26,245 Speaker 2: with Gray Area drinkers because we don't want that mirror 584 00:29:26,245 --> 00:29:28,605 Speaker 2: held up to us necessarily. And if everybody's doing the 585 00:29:28,645 --> 00:29:32,445 Speaker 2: same thing, then you don't have a problem. These are 586 00:29:32,605 --> 00:29:35,005 Speaker 2: friends you know that you I'm sure you know from 587 00:29:35,045 --> 00:29:38,285 Speaker 2: all different kinds of walks of life. Was it hard 588 00:29:38,445 --> 00:29:41,565 Speaker 2: socially to be the person who when you're at one 589 00:29:41,565 --> 00:29:44,125 Speaker 2: of your Sunday lunches or you're at a you know, 590 00:29:44,485 --> 00:29:46,965 Speaker 2: one of the many social occasions that come with having 591 00:29:47,045 --> 00:29:49,725 Speaker 2: families and friends and stuff. Was it hard to be 592 00:29:49,765 --> 00:29:51,765 Speaker 2: the one who said, oh, no, I'll have a soda order? 593 00:29:51,925 --> 00:29:57,085 Speaker 1: Yeah? Really hard, because I didn't expect no one, like 594 00:29:57,205 --> 00:30:00,285 Speaker 1: everyone says, to not drink around me, Like I can't go, oh, 595 00:30:00,285 --> 00:30:02,325 Speaker 1: I'm not drinking, so therefore no one else is allowed to. 596 00:30:02,645 --> 00:30:05,405 Speaker 1: So you kind of put on this show that it's 597 00:30:05,485 --> 00:30:07,805 Speaker 1: not hard and yeah, yeah it's fine, and you feel 598 00:30:07,845 --> 00:30:11,205 Speaker 1: this pressure to still pretend that everything's still the same 599 00:30:11,245 --> 00:30:14,605 Speaker 1: but inside you're feeling really clunky, You're feeling really awkward, 600 00:30:14,845 --> 00:30:17,045 Speaker 1: you feel a little bit paranoid, You're worried what people 601 00:30:17,085 --> 00:30:19,605 Speaker 1: are thinking about You're not drinking. Am I being funny enough? 602 00:30:19,645 --> 00:30:20,405 Speaker 1: Am I talking enough? 603 00:30:20,405 --> 00:30:20,485 Speaker 3: Oh? 604 00:30:20,525 --> 00:30:23,445 Speaker 1: No, I'm being really quiet. Like that doesn't happen now, 605 00:30:23,445 --> 00:30:25,445 Speaker 1: by the way, But that is what it's like at 606 00:30:25,445 --> 00:30:26,045 Speaker 1: the start, in. 607 00:30:26,045 --> 00:30:30,205 Speaker 2: The early days. And what do you tell your women 608 00:30:30,245 --> 00:30:32,525 Speaker 2: that you work with and support will help them get 609 00:30:32,565 --> 00:30:35,845 Speaker 2: through that tricky bit? Because I know it seems sad 610 00:30:35,845 --> 00:30:38,405 Speaker 2: to say out loud, but I just think that, given 611 00:30:38,485 --> 00:30:40,325 Speaker 2: what we've talked about about the culture that we've been 612 00:30:40,405 --> 00:30:44,765 Speaker 2: swimming in for thirty years, often by this point the 613 00:30:44,805 --> 00:30:48,205 Speaker 2: idea of going to a Saturday lunch with the girls 614 00:30:48,245 --> 00:30:52,165 Speaker 2: and not drinking, or Sunday afternoon barbecues with the kids 615 00:30:52,165 --> 00:30:57,885 Speaker 2: and not drinking actually seems can seem impossible, almost, like 616 00:30:57,925 --> 00:31:01,205 Speaker 2: because that's just not what we do. What's your best 617 00:31:01,205 --> 00:31:04,365 Speaker 2: advice for getting through those weird early days? 618 00:31:04,725 --> 00:31:06,725 Speaker 1: Yeah? And I wrote a whole chapter about this in 619 00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:09,165 Speaker 1: my book because it's the area that comes up time 620 00:31:09,165 --> 00:31:11,285 Speaker 1: and time again. And I and my advice in my 621 00:31:11,325 --> 00:31:13,205 Speaker 1: book is what I'll say to you now, as well, 622 00:31:13,245 --> 00:31:16,605 Speaker 1: which is I wish I'd been more honest at the start. 623 00:31:16,805 --> 00:31:19,485 Speaker 1: So I felt shame and I felt like I was 624 00:31:19,565 --> 00:31:24,045 Speaker 1: letting people down by not drinking, because my story that 625 00:31:24,085 --> 00:31:26,525 Speaker 1: I told myself was well, people want me to be 626 00:31:26,605 --> 00:31:28,765 Speaker 1: the life and party and people expect me to always 627 00:31:28,765 --> 00:31:30,645 Speaker 1: have wine in the fridge when they come to my house. 628 00:31:31,125 --> 00:31:34,365 Speaker 1: So I didn't want to say to people, are my 629 00:31:34,525 --> 00:31:37,325 Speaker 1: mental health really suffering? I really am not going well 630 00:31:37,325 --> 00:31:40,205 Speaker 1: with alcohol, because I felt ashamed that I'd got to 631 00:31:40,205 --> 00:31:42,445 Speaker 1: that point. So my line was, Oh, I just want 632 00:31:42,445 --> 00:31:45,245 Speaker 1: to lose a bit of weight, but then you leave 633 00:31:45,285 --> 00:31:48,045 Speaker 1: yourself open to a well have a occur and so 634 00:31:48,165 --> 00:31:50,285 Speaker 1: do them because there's no calories in that, or you 635 00:31:50,285 --> 00:31:52,285 Speaker 1: don't need to lose weight. What are you talking about? 636 00:31:52,365 --> 00:31:56,645 Speaker 1: So I probably did give myself set myself up to 637 00:31:56,645 --> 00:31:58,165 Speaker 1: make it a bit harder than it needed to be. 638 00:31:58,285 --> 00:32:01,005 Speaker 1: And if I was to have my time again, I 639 00:32:01,045 --> 00:32:05,045 Speaker 1: would have been way more honest and open with how 640 00:32:05,205 --> 00:32:08,845 Speaker 1: alcohol was impacting me from a mental health perspective with 641 00:32:08,965 --> 00:32:12,885 Speaker 1: the people that I trusted and asked for their support. 642 00:32:13,365 --> 00:32:16,525 Speaker 2: Did it make some of your friends uncomfortable? Absolutely, because 643 00:32:16,565 --> 00:32:19,965 Speaker 2: it made them feel judged, Absolutely, and even though you 644 00:32:19,965 --> 00:32:23,325 Speaker 2: weren't judging them, but that's how they it can feel, 645 00:32:23,605 --> 00:32:23,885 Speaker 2: you know. 646 00:32:23,925 --> 00:32:26,325 Speaker 1: Of course. And you know when I was drinking, I 647 00:32:26,405 --> 00:32:28,765 Speaker 1: was the one that was like, oh God, what do 648 00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:31,005 Speaker 1: you mean You're coming to my birthday and you're not drinking. 649 00:32:31,085 --> 00:32:33,005 Speaker 1: You have to drink. There's no point you coming if 650 00:32:33,045 --> 00:32:35,565 Speaker 1: you can't drink. Like I was terrible for putting that 651 00:32:35,685 --> 00:32:38,485 Speaker 1: kind of pressure on people because I had a problem 652 00:32:38,565 --> 00:32:42,045 Speaker 1: with alcohol. So it made me uncomfortable if someone was 653 00:32:42,085 --> 00:32:44,565 Speaker 1: able to go and have fun and not drink, like 654 00:32:44,605 --> 00:32:46,885 Speaker 1: I just thought they were weird and they were not 655 00:32:46,965 --> 00:32:51,245 Speaker 1: my people. And so I really do not my people. 656 00:32:51,285 --> 00:32:53,285 Speaker 2: That's such an interesting phrase that we using. 657 00:32:53,365 --> 00:32:57,565 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it was a process that I do 658 00:32:57,645 --> 00:32:59,805 Speaker 1: think that the more open and honest we can be, 659 00:32:59,965 --> 00:33:02,085 Speaker 1: and then we have to be really selective with what 660 00:33:02,125 --> 00:33:04,245 Speaker 1: we choose to go to. Like I had a client 661 00:33:04,285 --> 00:33:06,445 Speaker 1: email me the other day and she was like, I 662 00:33:06,445 --> 00:33:08,085 Speaker 1: don't think I'm ever going to have fun again. I 663 00:33:08,125 --> 00:33:10,085 Speaker 1: went to a beer festival with all my friends and 664 00:33:10,125 --> 00:33:12,765 Speaker 1: I actually just found everyone really irritating them or because 665 00:33:12,765 --> 00:33:14,765 Speaker 1: they got the more annoying they were. I just sat 666 00:33:14,805 --> 00:33:16,365 Speaker 1: there thinking, oh my god, I'm never going to have 667 00:33:16,365 --> 00:33:18,845 Speaker 1: fun again, and I was like, Han, what the hell 668 00:33:18,845 --> 00:33:20,445 Speaker 1: are you doing going to a beer festival if you're 669 00:33:20,485 --> 00:33:23,085 Speaker 1: not drinking beer? Like, you've got to be really selective 670 00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:26,205 Speaker 1: with what you do and where you go, because you 671 00:33:26,245 --> 00:33:28,925 Speaker 1: can still have fun. My life is probably more fun, 672 00:33:29,005 --> 00:33:31,805 Speaker 1: more adventurous, more fulfilling now than it ever was before. 673 00:33:32,405 --> 00:33:34,245 Speaker 1: But you have to be selective with what you do. 674 00:33:34,325 --> 00:33:37,085 Speaker 1: You can't just do what you did and not drink, 675 00:33:37,165 --> 00:33:39,445 Speaker 1: because it turns out being around loads of people who 676 00:33:39,445 --> 00:33:42,525 Speaker 1: are getting absolutely shitfaced and when you're still sober, laughing 677 00:33:42,525 --> 00:33:44,205 Speaker 1: at things that are not funny just because you feel 678 00:33:44,245 --> 00:33:46,125 Speaker 1: like you have to fit in is actually really hard 679 00:33:46,125 --> 00:33:47,405 Speaker 1: work and not that much fun. 680 00:33:48,285 --> 00:33:51,165 Speaker 2: And drunk people are indeed boring and annoying when you 681 00:33:51,205 --> 00:33:55,205 Speaker 2: are not drunk yourself exactly. Of course, what about in 682 00:33:55,245 --> 00:33:59,405 Speaker 2: your close relationships? So I've heard you say that you 683 00:33:59,445 --> 00:34:03,845 Speaker 2: and your husband, for example, used to have a drink 684 00:34:03,885 --> 00:34:05,645 Speaker 2: together at the end of the day, Like I assume 685 00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:07,485 Speaker 2: not a binge drink, but you know, you would sit 686 00:34:07,525 --> 00:34:09,925 Speaker 2: down and have a beer or a win together at 687 00:34:09,925 --> 00:34:11,205 Speaker 2: the end of the day and it was an important 688 00:34:11,205 --> 00:34:14,085 Speaker 2: reconnecting time. And there are moments like that that we 689 00:34:14,205 --> 00:34:17,365 Speaker 2: probably lots of gray area drinkers would have in our 690 00:34:17,405 --> 00:34:21,325 Speaker 2: lives where we go. You know, it's the mark between 691 00:34:21,445 --> 00:34:25,645 Speaker 2: Friday and the weekend. It's the mark between summer, or 692 00:34:25,685 --> 00:34:29,405 Speaker 2: it's holidays or it's whatever. How did that play out 693 00:34:29,405 --> 00:34:31,805 Speaker 2: in your relationship and your intimate relationship. 694 00:34:31,885 --> 00:34:34,965 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was hard, and it actually led to us 695 00:34:35,405 --> 00:34:38,525 Speaker 1: being in couples therapy and going through quite a challenging 696 00:34:38,605 --> 00:34:43,085 Speaker 1: time because we hadn't recognized the importance of that ritual 697 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:46,765 Speaker 1: of connection that came with him coming home and I 698 00:34:46,765 --> 00:34:49,485 Speaker 1: would hear his truck pulling into the driveway and I'd 699 00:34:49,525 --> 00:34:51,885 Speaker 1: be like, it's wine time, and then I would get 700 00:34:51,925 --> 00:34:54,125 Speaker 1: my wine, I'd get his beer. We'd go sit outside, 701 00:34:54,205 --> 00:34:55,885 Speaker 1: we'd have a drink, and we'd be like, how are you, 702 00:34:55,965 --> 00:34:59,125 Speaker 1: How was your day? So when we stopped drinking, he 703 00:34:59,205 --> 00:35:02,165 Speaker 1: stopped at the same time that I did. We didn't 704 00:35:02,205 --> 00:35:05,485 Speaker 1: do that, but we didn't realize the importance that that 705 00:35:05,685 --> 00:35:08,325 Speaker 1: ritual of connection had had just in that few minutes 706 00:35:08,685 --> 00:35:12,365 Speaker 1: of having eye contact and going how are you, how 707 00:35:12,445 --> 00:35:16,005 Speaker 1: was your day? And you know what it's like when 708 00:35:16,005 --> 00:35:18,365 Speaker 1: you're both working. We have our own businesses. We've got 709 00:35:18,365 --> 00:35:20,485 Speaker 1: two kids that seem to do every fricking sport under 710 00:35:20,485 --> 00:35:22,725 Speaker 1: the sun. So every day you're going from one logistical 711 00:35:22,765 --> 00:35:25,245 Speaker 1: thing to the other. And because we didn't have the 712 00:35:25,285 --> 00:35:27,485 Speaker 1: alcohol is the thing that was like, oh, let's go 713 00:35:27,525 --> 00:35:29,245 Speaker 1: sit down and have a drink together, we stopped doing 714 00:35:29,245 --> 00:35:32,325 Speaker 1: it and we went to the couple's therapy and I 715 00:35:32,365 --> 00:35:36,445 Speaker 1: remember the therapist going, do you not see what has 716 00:35:36,565 --> 00:35:39,245 Speaker 1: changed with you not doing that anymore? Because it's more 717 00:35:39,485 --> 00:35:42,845 Speaker 1: than just sitting down having a drink. It's a way 718 00:35:42,845 --> 00:35:46,285 Speaker 1: of saying to that person you matter. To me, you're important. 719 00:35:46,525 --> 00:35:48,645 Speaker 1: Let's just sit down and have a drink together and 720 00:35:48,725 --> 00:35:51,365 Speaker 1: let me ask you about your day. And we'd stop 721 00:35:51,405 --> 00:35:54,845 Speaker 1: doing that. So our new ritual became, you know, not 722 00:35:55,165 --> 00:35:57,445 Speaker 1: quite the same as having a drink, but equally as important. 723 00:35:57,485 --> 00:36:00,085 Speaker 1: Every night, after dinner, we went for a walk and 724 00:36:00,485 --> 00:36:02,805 Speaker 1: on that walk, how are you, how was your day? 725 00:36:03,285 --> 00:36:06,005 Speaker 1: Because just setting that time, sometimes it was five minutes, 726 00:36:06,005 --> 00:36:08,005 Speaker 1: sometimes it was forty five minutes, depending on how much 727 00:36:08,045 --> 00:36:10,445 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about that day. But in that 728 00:36:10,605 --> 00:36:13,045 Speaker 1: process of doing that, you are saying to that other person, 729 00:36:13,125 --> 00:36:15,485 Speaker 1: you're important. I want to spend a few minutes with you, 730 00:36:15,525 --> 00:36:16,565 Speaker 1: even if that's all it is. 731 00:36:17,645 --> 00:36:21,325 Speaker 2: So it's about it's not the alcohol. And I imagine 732 00:36:21,325 --> 00:36:23,525 Speaker 2: that was probably in some of your friendships too, because 733 00:36:23,525 --> 00:36:26,205 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about some friends I have that when we go, 734 00:36:26,245 --> 00:36:28,285 Speaker 2: we're going to have a catch up. What that means 735 00:36:28,405 --> 00:36:30,085 Speaker 2: is we're going to go and have a wine, right, 736 00:36:30,685 --> 00:36:35,005 Speaker 2: And so if we don't go and have a wine, like, 737 00:36:35,205 --> 00:36:38,045 Speaker 2: does the catch up happen? I guess that again, it's 738 00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:39,485 Speaker 2: fine and the other thing. So it's go for a 739 00:36:39,525 --> 00:36:43,805 Speaker 2: walk together, go and do something else together, exactly. And 740 00:36:43,925 --> 00:36:46,405 Speaker 2: is that what you started to do with your friends? 741 00:36:46,405 --> 00:36:49,445 Speaker 1: Totally? Totally so. And if they were going out and 742 00:36:49,885 --> 00:36:52,085 Speaker 1: getting pissed, I was always happy to be the driver 743 00:36:52,205 --> 00:36:53,845 Speaker 1: and I would be like, I'll probably stay for two 744 00:36:53,885 --> 00:36:55,685 Speaker 1: hours when you all start spitting in my face and 745 00:36:55,725 --> 00:36:58,365 Speaker 1: repeating yourself, I'm going home and I'll catch up with 746 00:36:58,405 --> 00:37:00,765 Speaker 1: you again soon, so don't be offended if I do. 747 00:37:01,085 --> 00:37:04,085 Speaker 1: And it was having the courage and the confidence to go. 748 00:37:04,845 --> 00:37:07,605 Speaker 1: It's not fun for me after they pass a certain 749 00:37:07,645 --> 00:37:10,805 Speaker 1: point of pissness, but because there's any judgment from me, 750 00:37:10,965 --> 00:37:14,565 Speaker 1: but just that's when we're on different wavelengths completely, So 751 00:37:14,605 --> 00:37:16,885 Speaker 1: I would just go home. But equally, we started doing 752 00:37:16,925 --> 00:37:19,605 Speaker 1: more things and I'm quite a proactive person. So I'd 753 00:37:19,605 --> 00:37:21,205 Speaker 1: be like, right, let's go to this comedy show, let's 754 00:37:21,245 --> 00:37:22,445 Speaker 1: go to this theater. Who wants to comes to this 755 00:37:22,525 --> 00:37:25,125 Speaker 1: yoga class with me? And I do lots of walks 756 00:37:25,165 --> 00:37:27,245 Speaker 1: with girlfriends at you know, five six in the morning 757 00:37:27,285 --> 00:37:29,845 Speaker 1: and put the world to rights. And so it's really 758 00:37:30,005 --> 00:37:33,645 Speaker 1: really important that we maintain some form of connection with 759 00:37:33,725 --> 00:37:36,405 Speaker 1: the people that really matter to us, because it can 760 00:37:36,445 --> 00:37:39,005 Speaker 1: feel you can feel really isolated and really lonely when 761 00:37:39,005 --> 00:37:41,165 Speaker 1: we live in such an alcohol centric society to be 762 00:37:41,205 --> 00:37:42,765 Speaker 1: the person that's not drinking. 763 00:37:46,165 --> 00:37:48,885 Speaker 2: The rest of my conversation with Sarah respect when we 764 00:37:48,965 --> 00:37:56,725 Speaker 2: come back. You said that your husband stopped at the 765 00:37:56,725 --> 00:37:59,685 Speaker 2: same time as you. Was that a deliberate thing? Did 766 00:37:59,725 --> 00:38:03,085 Speaker 2: he have a similar relationship like with alcohol part of 767 00:38:03,125 --> 00:38:05,725 Speaker 2: your relationship apart from the wine at night? Do you 768 00:38:05,725 --> 00:38:07,725 Speaker 2: think you kind of had to stop together? Do you 769 00:38:07,765 --> 00:38:09,325 Speaker 2: think it would have worked otherwise? 770 00:38:10,005 --> 00:38:13,285 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the question I get asked the most I 771 00:38:13,325 --> 00:38:16,045 Speaker 1: get most, you know, is how do I navigate if 772 00:38:16,045 --> 00:38:18,525 Speaker 1: my partner's still drinking? I mean, we met when we 773 00:38:18,525 --> 00:38:20,565 Speaker 1: were twenty four, and my chat up line was do 774 00:38:20,645 --> 00:38:22,605 Speaker 1: you want to come and play my drinking game? Like 775 00:38:23,645 --> 00:38:24,845 Speaker 1: our life was started on. 776 00:38:25,125 --> 00:38:27,685 Speaker 2: So the answer was yes, alcohol was part of your. 777 00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:32,445 Speaker 1: Pace, right, And so we've grown up together. And his 778 00:38:32,645 --> 00:38:35,005 Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol, in some ways was different, in some 779 00:38:35,045 --> 00:38:37,565 Speaker 1: ways was the same. He had never taken breaks during 780 00:38:37,565 --> 00:38:39,965 Speaker 1: those two years when I'd done one hundred days and stopped, 781 00:38:40,605 --> 00:38:43,285 Speaker 1: he carried on drinking. But he was observing. And that's 782 00:38:43,285 --> 00:38:45,765 Speaker 1: what I always say to my ladies is you don't 783 00:38:45,765 --> 00:38:48,445 Speaker 1: have to say anything, but if anything, if you're going 784 00:38:48,485 --> 00:38:50,485 Speaker 1: to say anything, you can't tell someone what to do. 785 00:38:50,565 --> 00:38:52,645 Speaker 1: You can't tell them that they have to stop drinking, 786 00:38:52,725 --> 00:38:54,685 Speaker 1: like it's their choice to make. But if you talk 787 00:38:54,725 --> 00:38:57,445 Speaker 1: a lot about the positives you're getting from not drinking, 788 00:38:57,605 --> 00:39:00,045 Speaker 1: it does impact them more than your real life. So 789 00:39:00,045 --> 00:39:02,445 Speaker 1: I'd be like, oh my god, I can't believe the 790 00:39:02,565 --> 00:39:05,485 Speaker 1: change in my energy. I can't believe how productive I am. 791 00:39:05,565 --> 00:39:07,565 Speaker 1: I can't believe how much clearer my head is. I 792 00:39:07,605 --> 00:39:10,445 Speaker 1: can't believe how much happier I feel. And when you're 793 00:39:10,485 --> 00:39:13,805 Speaker 1: saying all of that, they can't help but notice. And 794 00:39:14,285 --> 00:39:16,325 Speaker 1: he then just got to that point, although he hadn't 795 00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:19,765 Speaker 1: taken all of these different breaks, where he was like, Yeah, 796 00:39:19,845 --> 00:39:20,965 Speaker 1: I'm going to join. 797 00:39:20,805 --> 00:39:23,365 Speaker 2: You, and it's stuck for him too. 798 00:39:23,765 --> 00:39:27,845 Speaker 1: He's dabbled a little bit since, but is realizing again 799 00:39:28,045 --> 00:39:31,565 Speaker 1: that moderation is not that he hadn't gone through what 800 00:39:31,605 --> 00:39:33,645 Speaker 1: I've gone through in those two years, and so he 801 00:39:33,725 --> 00:39:36,205 Speaker 1: had got to that point of wanting to test it 802 00:39:36,245 --> 00:39:37,965 Speaker 1: and then just was like, it's not worth it. Like 803 00:39:38,285 --> 00:39:40,725 Speaker 1: I'm forty eight now I can't drink like I used 804 00:39:40,725 --> 00:39:43,045 Speaker 1: to do. The impact and the hangovers and everything else. 805 00:39:43,445 --> 00:39:46,205 Speaker 1: It's And that's what I say to everyone, is you 806 00:39:46,205 --> 00:39:48,565 Speaker 1: don't have to call yourself an alcoholic to decide to 807 00:39:48,565 --> 00:39:52,445 Speaker 1: stop drinking. But we can remember that in our forties 808 00:39:52,485 --> 00:39:54,405 Speaker 1: and fifties, we're never going to be able to metabolize 809 00:39:54,405 --> 00:39:56,445 Speaker 1: alcohol like we can in our twenties, and it's going 810 00:39:56,485 --> 00:39:58,765 Speaker 1: to have way more of a trade off. And then 811 00:39:58,805 --> 00:40:00,565 Speaker 1: that's where we get to that point of going is 812 00:40:00,605 --> 00:40:03,205 Speaker 1: it worth it? Or have I passed that tipping point 813 00:40:03,405 --> 00:40:06,125 Speaker 1: where it takes more than it's giving and it's simply 814 00:40:06,165 --> 00:40:06,765 Speaker 1: not worth it. 815 00:40:07,525 --> 00:40:10,685 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking in the middle of summer. It's been Christmas, 816 00:40:10,765 --> 00:40:14,965 Speaker 2: it's holidays, it's a highly social time. It's often a 817 00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:19,325 Speaker 2: time that women are questioning, well, people are questioning their 818 00:40:19,405 --> 00:40:21,565 Speaker 2: alcohol use, even if they love it. You know, even 819 00:40:21,605 --> 00:40:24,125 Speaker 2: if they don't, you get to a point where you're like, 820 00:40:24,405 --> 00:40:27,165 Speaker 2: is it serving? Isn't it serving? What do you think 821 00:40:27,165 --> 00:40:30,245 Speaker 2: of the questions to ask yourself about whether or not 822 00:40:30,365 --> 00:40:32,725 Speaker 2: you are a gray area drinker? 823 00:40:33,085 --> 00:40:35,765 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a few signs. So number one, as 824 00:40:35,805 --> 00:40:38,245 Speaker 1: we started this whole conversation, do I have rules around 825 00:40:38,245 --> 00:40:40,365 Speaker 1: my drinking? And do I have a lot of internal 826 00:40:40,485 --> 00:40:44,245 Speaker 1: chatter about my drinking? Am I constantly negotiating breaking my 827 00:40:44,365 --> 00:40:47,765 Speaker 1: rules and finding ways to justify doing that? Is a 828 00:40:47,925 --> 00:40:50,005 Speaker 1: sure sign that we're in that gray area. 829 00:40:50,085 --> 00:40:53,885 Speaker 2: It's almost like alcohol is a character in your story, 830 00:40:54,485 --> 00:40:56,285 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Whereas if you didn't have 831 00:40:56,365 --> 00:40:58,285 Speaker 2: any issues with it, it wouldn't. 832 00:40:57,965 --> 00:40:59,925 Speaker 1: Be achter, It doesn't take up heads, would. 833 00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:01,925 Speaker 2: Be a cameo. It just turns up every now and again. 834 00:41:01,925 --> 00:41:06,045 Speaker 1: And yeah, exactly exactly do you find that alcohol is 835 00:41:06,125 --> 00:41:09,805 Speaker 1: your go to every time you're experiencing and uncomfort motion? 836 00:41:10,445 --> 00:41:13,165 Speaker 1: So is that the only thing in your toolkit? Which 837 00:41:13,165 --> 00:41:14,765 Speaker 1: is what I find with most of the women I 838 00:41:14,845 --> 00:41:16,965 Speaker 1: work with, is they don't have anything else. They've been 839 00:41:17,085 --> 00:41:19,925 Speaker 1: using alcohol for a really, really, really long time for 840 00:41:20,005 --> 00:41:23,605 Speaker 1: any kind of adversity, and that's when it can become 841 00:41:23,645 --> 00:41:26,205 Speaker 1: problematic as well. Do we often drink more than we 842 00:41:26,245 --> 00:41:28,205 Speaker 1: intend to? Is it always I'm just going to have 843 00:41:28,245 --> 00:41:31,365 Speaker 1: one and then it usually ends up being more. Have 844 00:41:31,445 --> 00:41:34,765 Speaker 1: we started to notice the negative impact of alcohol on us? So? 845 00:41:34,845 --> 00:41:36,885 Speaker 1: Have we started to notice that it's causing us to 846 00:41:36,925 --> 00:41:38,845 Speaker 1: wake up at two or three in the morning? Have 847 00:41:38,925 --> 00:41:41,365 Speaker 1: we noticed the next day we might not feel hungover, 848 00:41:41,725 --> 00:41:43,725 Speaker 1: but we might have a bit more anxiety, we might 849 00:41:43,765 --> 00:41:46,165 Speaker 1: be feeling tired, we might be feeling that five out 850 00:41:46,205 --> 00:41:49,525 Speaker 1: of ten. Here's another really great question. If I said 851 00:41:49,525 --> 00:41:51,205 Speaker 1: to you, to any of your listeners and all of 852 00:41:51,245 --> 00:41:54,765 Speaker 1: your ladies listening now, and then right today, we're going 853 00:41:54,805 --> 00:41:58,245 Speaker 1: to do nighty days off booze. So from today going forward, 854 00:41:58,405 --> 00:42:01,885 Speaker 1: nighty days off booze. Let's see how we go. If 855 00:42:01,925 --> 00:42:04,205 Speaker 1: you're a gray area drinker, I can pretty much guarantee 856 00:42:04,285 --> 00:42:06,525 Speaker 1: that there will be something that's coming up in your 857 00:42:06,565 --> 00:42:08,885 Speaker 1: head as resistance, because people who are not Gray area 858 00:42:08,965 --> 00:42:10,805 Speaker 1: drinkers just be like, yeah, sure, I don't know. A 859 00:42:10,885 --> 00:42:12,685 Speaker 1: days off, I don't mind. But if we've got a 860 00:42:12,725 --> 00:42:15,805 Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol in some way, I can't go to 861 00:42:15,845 --> 00:42:17,285 Speaker 1: that wedding, I can't go to that party. I can't 862 00:42:17,285 --> 00:42:18,805 Speaker 1: go on that holiday, I can't do any of those 863 00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:22,725 Speaker 1: things without alcohol, then we've definitely formed some kind of 864 00:42:22,765 --> 00:42:27,325 Speaker 1: either emotional dependence, social dependence, whatever it might be. 865 00:42:28,965 --> 00:42:30,805 Speaker 2: Can I ask you, because there will be lots of 866 00:42:30,845 --> 00:42:33,005 Speaker 2: people listening to this who when you ask that question, 867 00:42:34,205 --> 00:42:37,125 Speaker 2: have that reaction? As you say, one of the reasons 868 00:42:37,165 --> 00:42:39,445 Speaker 2: why you're passionate about Gray Area drinking, as you've said 869 00:42:39,445 --> 00:42:43,885 Speaker 2: several times, is that you know, we've told ourselves this 870 00:42:43,925 --> 00:42:46,085 Speaker 2: story that people who have a problem look like this, 871 00:42:46,725 --> 00:42:48,565 Speaker 2: and the rest of us are over here and we 872 00:42:48,765 --> 00:42:51,765 Speaker 2: just like having good time, whatever it might be. You've 873 00:42:51,765 --> 00:42:55,405 Speaker 2: talked about the mental health benefits of giving up alcohol, 874 00:42:55,485 --> 00:42:58,405 Speaker 2: certainly for you, and the physical benefits of feeling great. 875 00:42:58,885 --> 00:43:00,925 Speaker 2: Tell me about some of the risks of alcohol that 876 00:43:00,965 --> 00:43:03,765 Speaker 2: we understand more now than we perhaps used to. 877 00:43:03,965 --> 00:43:07,205 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the most alarming thing that I learned 878 00:43:07,205 --> 00:43:10,965 Speaker 1: when I started researching my book and and getting very 879 00:43:10,965 --> 00:43:14,765 Speaker 1: involved in this world is that women cannot metabolize alcohol 880 00:43:14,805 --> 00:43:17,205 Speaker 1: in the same way as men. Women are very, very 881 00:43:17,325 --> 00:43:20,525 Speaker 1: vulnerable to the health risks of alcohol because we produce 882 00:43:20,725 --> 00:43:24,645 Speaker 1: less of an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenates ald H, and 883 00:43:24,685 --> 00:43:27,405 Speaker 1: this is the enzyme whose job is to break down 884 00:43:27,565 --> 00:43:30,245 Speaker 1: and remove alcohol from the body as quickly as possible. 885 00:43:30,445 --> 00:43:33,125 Speaker 1: So women have less of this, which means we have 886 00:43:33,565 --> 00:43:36,965 Speaker 1: whenever we drink more alcohol enters our bloodstream because our 887 00:43:36,965 --> 00:43:40,485 Speaker 1: body can't metabolize it as effectively. This means that women 888 00:43:40,685 --> 00:43:44,805 Speaker 1: are more susceptible to liver disease, heart disease, stroke, cancer, 889 00:43:45,125 --> 00:43:48,725 Speaker 1: brain health issues. I interviewed and Dasett Johnson, who's an 890 00:43:48,725 --> 00:43:52,205 Speaker 1: incredible health journalist from Canada who's written a book on 891 00:43:52,325 --> 00:43:56,485 Speaker 1: women in alcohol. She said, alcohol related stroke happens in 892 00:43:56,525 --> 00:43:59,725 Speaker 1: both men and women, but happens seven times faster in 893 00:43:59,805 --> 00:44:04,045 Speaker 1: women because we cannot metabolize alcohol as effectively. So that's 894 00:44:04,125 --> 00:44:06,245 Speaker 1: one situation we've got. And then the next is as 895 00:44:06,285 --> 00:44:11,845 Speaker 1: women age, our levels of ALDH drop even more, plus 896 00:44:11,885 --> 00:44:15,765 Speaker 1: our liver volume begins to shrink. Plus we've got perimenopause 897 00:44:15,805 --> 00:44:21,285 Speaker 1: issues going on. So women and men metabolize alcohol differently anyway. 898 00:44:21,765 --> 00:44:23,605 Speaker 1: And then you've got a woman in her forties and 899 00:44:23,605 --> 00:44:27,485 Speaker 1: fifties who's struggling even more to metabolize alcohol. So this 900 00:44:27,525 --> 00:44:30,245 Speaker 1: is why you start to see for women in this 901 00:44:30,325 --> 00:44:33,405 Speaker 1: age group where they're starting to get more affected by anxiety. 902 00:44:33,445 --> 00:44:36,605 Speaker 1: The next day, they're starting to get more affected by sleep. 903 00:44:37,365 --> 00:44:41,805 Speaker 1: Women's risk of breast cancer related to alcohol. One in 904 00:44:41,885 --> 00:44:45,925 Speaker 1: five breast cancer deaths in Australia is caused by alcohol. 905 00:44:46,645 --> 00:44:50,165 Speaker 1: And people think that this is if you're drinking like 906 00:44:50,245 --> 00:44:53,765 Speaker 1: Suellen and Dallas and hard liquor every day. But Hoberman 907 00:44:53,845 --> 00:44:58,685 Speaker 1: did a podcast that states very clearly three units of 908 00:44:58,725 --> 00:45:02,405 Speaker 1: alcohol or more per week increases your chance of developing 909 00:45:02,445 --> 00:45:06,365 Speaker 1: cancer by fifteen percent. So it's not we don't have 910 00:45:06,405 --> 00:45:10,205 Speaker 1: to be drinking huge, huge, huge amounts start to have 911 00:45:10,285 --> 00:45:13,965 Speaker 1: the impact the negative impact on our health from alcohol. 912 00:45:14,285 --> 00:45:16,725 Speaker 1: And I think that a lot has been done by 913 00:45:16,765 --> 00:45:20,085 Speaker 1: the alcohol industry to try and muddy the water here, 914 00:45:20,485 --> 00:45:22,445 Speaker 1: you know, the whole red wine's good for the heart, 915 00:45:22,765 --> 00:45:24,765 Speaker 1: and everything that they'll try and put out there to 916 00:45:24,845 --> 00:45:26,965 Speaker 1: make us think it's not damaging and. 917 00:45:27,525 --> 00:45:31,125 Speaker 2: Please drink responsibly, and the number of units in a 918 00:45:31,205 --> 00:45:33,965 Speaker 2: bottle and all those kind of things. From your journey 919 00:45:34,005 --> 00:45:37,445 Speaker 2: and your experience and from this ever increasing knowledge, we 920 00:45:37,565 --> 00:45:39,925 Speaker 2: know that younger people are drinking less than ever before. 921 00:45:40,925 --> 00:45:45,485 Speaker 2: Is your general position that alcohol just shouldn't be a 922 00:45:45,525 --> 00:45:47,765 Speaker 2: part of anybody's life, that that is not really a 923 00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:51,085 Speaker 2: safe level and that we've kind of been a little 924 00:45:51,085 --> 00:45:56,205 Speaker 2: bit exploited by the alcohol industry. Is that your general position. 925 00:45:56,725 --> 00:46:00,365 Speaker 1: Yes on the exploitation, right, So yes, there there's evidence 926 00:46:00,405 --> 00:46:02,685 Speaker 1: now that has come out that showed about thirty years 927 00:46:02,725 --> 00:46:05,685 Speaker 1: ago the alcohol big wigs in the alcohol industry sat 928 00:46:05,725 --> 00:46:08,365 Speaker 1: down to talk about how can we make more money? 929 00:46:08,485 --> 00:46:10,605 Speaker 1: We are not making an money from women. How can 930 00:46:10,645 --> 00:46:13,165 Speaker 1: we get women to drink more? And this was where 931 00:46:13,205 --> 00:46:16,405 Speaker 1: we saw the introduction of alcopops and we saw the 932 00:46:16,445 --> 00:46:21,965 Speaker 1: introduction of feminine specific marketing campaigns to get women to 933 00:46:22,765 --> 00:46:24,645 Speaker 1: consume more alcohol. And it's worked. 934 00:46:24,765 --> 00:46:27,085 Speaker 2: Something we would all be familiar with, right, we would 935 00:46:27,085 --> 00:46:31,405 Speaker 2: all be familiar with girls lunches, bottomless brunches, rose all day. 936 00:46:32,325 --> 00:46:34,365 Speaker 2: You know, it's marguerite to time, all that stuff. It's 937 00:46:34,485 --> 00:46:36,125 Speaker 2: very much aimed at women. 938 00:46:36,285 --> 00:46:38,565 Speaker 1: Yeah. And my position is not you must never drink. 939 00:46:38,645 --> 00:46:41,405 Speaker 1: Everyone has free will. I am not advocating for prohibition 940 00:46:41,485 --> 00:46:44,685 Speaker 1: and saying we should, you know, make alcohol illegal at all. 941 00:46:45,285 --> 00:46:48,165 Speaker 1: What I want is for there to be more information 942 00:46:48,285 --> 00:46:52,005 Speaker 1: available for women to make informed choices and decisions, and 943 00:46:52,085 --> 00:46:56,045 Speaker 1: for them to be more awareness around the health impacts 944 00:46:56,045 --> 00:46:59,685 Speaker 1: of alcohol, specifically to women, and for them to be 945 00:47:00,005 --> 00:47:04,085 Speaker 1: more awareness and support and information out there about how 946 00:47:04,125 --> 00:47:07,285 Speaker 1: to actually change your relationship with alcohol if you don't 947 00:47:07,685 --> 00:47:11,005 Speaker 1: fit that criteria for ourlcoholism. Because I've even got a 948 00:47:11,045 --> 00:47:14,885 Speaker 1: client who went to a medical rehab facility because she 949 00:47:15,045 --> 00:47:17,165 Speaker 1: was worried about how much she was drinking and she 950 00:47:17,285 --> 00:47:19,765 Speaker 1: wanted help, and she was drinking two bottles of wine 951 00:47:19,765 --> 00:47:22,925 Speaker 1: at night, and she was turned away and told, you're 952 00:47:22,965 --> 00:47:25,725 Speaker 1: not drinking enough to be admitted here. You just need 953 00:47:25,725 --> 00:47:29,645 Speaker 1: to cut down. Now, alcohol's the fifth most addictive substance 954 00:47:29,685 --> 00:47:32,805 Speaker 1: in the world. It is highly addictive. If we've passed 955 00:47:32,845 --> 00:47:34,845 Speaker 1: the point of being a taker or leave it drinker, 956 00:47:35,285 --> 00:47:38,205 Speaker 1: it's simply not as easy as going. You've just got 957 00:47:38,205 --> 00:47:40,765 Speaker 1: to cut down, Like, we need to have more support. 958 00:47:40,885 --> 00:47:43,205 Speaker 1: And there's only one of me, and I'm trying to 959 00:47:43,245 --> 00:47:46,645 Speaker 1: do an awful lot which I do to support midlife women, 960 00:47:46,805 --> 00:47:50,085 Speaker 1: but there's so much more that could be done around 961 00:47:50,085 --> 00:47:50,605 Speaker 1: this area. 962 00:47:51,405 --> 00:47:53,125 Speaker 2: What do you tell your kids about drinking? 963 00:47:53,405 --> 00:47:55,565 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting one because my son's nearly fifteen, 964 00:47:55,925 --> 00:47:57,645 Speaker 1: and so you know who's the age I was when 965 00:47:57,685 --> 00:47:58,445 Speaker 1: I started drinking. 966 00:47:58,765 --> 00:48:01,045 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and it's in there. It begins to be 967 00:48:01,085 --> 00:48:02,005 Speaker 2: in their world. 968 00:48:01,765 --> 00:48:04,445 Speaker 1: Totally and I've said to him, it doesn't bother me 969 00:48:04,685 --> 00:48:06,885 Speaker 1: if you drink alcohol, because it doesn't. But he will 970 00:48:06,925 --> 00:48:10,765 Speaker 1: be educated and told about the risks of alcohol in 971 00:48:10,805 --> 00:48:11,885 Speaker 1: a way that I never was. 972 00:48:13,885 --> 00:48:17,205 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. If there are people listening to this who 973 00:48:17,205 --> 00:48:20,085 Speaker 2: are like, yes, that is me, that is me, but 974 00:48:20,125 --> 00:48:24,125 Speaker 2: they're like, I literally cannot imagine my life without the 975 00:48:24,685 --> 00:48:28,045 Speaker 2: five o'clock glass of wine or whatever, it is a 976 00:48:28,045 --> 00:48:30,365 Speaker 2: little bit about the sort of support that's out there 977 00:48:30,485 --> 00:48:34,085 Speaker 2: from you and other organizations like you mentioned before, that 978 00:48:34,125 --> 00:48:37,325 Speaker 2: we are now living in a world that's much more 979 00:48:37,325 --> 00:48:41,085 Speaker 2: open to being sober curious as people say, and you 980 00:48:41,125 --> 00:48:43,125 Speaker 2: know there's more support out there. What do you say 981 00:48:43,165 --> 00:48:45,205 Speaker 2: to the woman who's like, well, yeah, I know it's 982 00:48:45,205 --> 00:48:48,405 Speaker 2: a problem. I know I'm not living my best life, 983 00:48:48,765 --> 00:48:51,485 Speaker 2: but I just can't imagine a world without alcohol. 984 00:48:51,565 --> 00:48:54,605 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I couldn't. And I think, don't go that far, 985 00:48:54,725 --> 00:48:57,965 Speaker 1: don't think too far ahead, just baby steps and just 986 00:48:57,965 --> 00:48:59,765 Speaker 1: go right. I'm just going to take a thirty day break, 987 00:48:59,765 --> 00:49:02,605 Speaker 1: and I run women's thirty day programs throughout the year 988 00:49:03,085 --> 00:49:05,165 Speaker 1: where we come into a group together. We've got women 989 00:49:05,205 --> 00:49:07,565 Speaker 1: from all over the world who are doing thirty days 990 00:49:07,605 --> 00:49:10,925 Speaker 1: off together because that that's what just starts us on 991 00:49:10,965 --> 00:49:13,485 Speaker 1: that path of going ah, and then we can ask 992 00:49:13,525 --> 00:49:17,005 Speaker 1: ourselves the questions, Okay, well is my sleep there, has 993 00:49:17,045 --> 00:49:20,645 Speaker 1: my anxiety disappeared? Do I feel more positive? Have I 994 00:49:20,685 --> 00:49:24,085 Speaker 1: got more energy and my calmer with my kids? Is 995 00:49:24,085 --> 00:49:26,725 Speaker 1: my skin looking better? Maybe I've lost a little bit 996 00:49:26,725 --> 00:49:29,005 Speaker 1: of weight. Maybe I'm going back to doing some more 997 00:49:29,125 --> 00:49:31,245 Speaker 1: hobbies and I've got the exercise to go to the gym, 998 00:49:31,285 --> 00:49:33,205 Speaker 1: and I'm doing all of these things. And those are 999 00:49:33,205 --> 00:49:35,725 Speaker 1: the things that we can just ask ourselves to get information, 1000 00:49:36,285 --> 00:49:38,045 Speaker 1: because what I find is most people are just living 1001 00:49:38,045 --> 00:49:40,405 Speaker 1: on autopilot and their life is just passing them by, 1002 00:49:40,485 --> 00:49:43,485 Speaker 1: and they're never pausing to go well is this still 1003 00:49:43,525 --> 00:49:47,885 Speaker 1: serving me or not? And that thirty day break can 1004 00:49:48,005 --> 00:49:51,525 Speaker 1: just be the first starting point of going okay. I'm 1005 00:49:51,565 --> 00:49:54,165 Speaker 1: just going to see this as an experiment because all 1006 00:49:54,165 --> 00:49:56,085 Speaker 1: those things that I just said, I can guarantee you 1007 00:49:56,125 --> 00:49:58,845 Speaker 1: that they change in thirty days and plus so much more. 1008 00:49:59,485 --> 00:50:08,045 Speaker 2: This has been marvelous. I hope you really enjoyed that conversation. 1009 00:50:08,325 --> 00:50:10,605 Speaker 2: I did. Look, as I said to Sarah, I'm not 1010 00:50:10,645 --> 00:50:13,125 Speaker 2: a sober person. I do drink. I did drink over 1011 00:50:13,205 --> 00:50:16,645 Speaker 2: Christmas but I find it really interesting that it's becoming 1012 00:50:16,685 --> 00:50:20,445 Speaker 2: so much more mainstream and acceptable to question your relationship 1013 00:50:20,485 --> 00:50:23,445 Speaker 2: with booze, and that sobriety is coming out of being 1014 00:50:23,485 --> 00:50:27,485 Speaker 2: something that all, most weirdly in Australian culture we think 1015 00:50:27,565 --> 00:50:31,845 Speaker 2: is strange, and that this far less stigma attached now 1016 00:50:32,245 --> 00:50:35,725 Speaker 2: to choosing to be alcohol free. Both Australia and the 1017 00:50:35,845 --> 00:50:39,325 Speaker 2: UK are big drinking cultures, and when you really start 1018 00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:42,325 Speaker 2: to notice that, you notice it everywhere. And if you're 1019 00:50:42,325 --> 00:50:44,685 Speaker 2: the first in your family, or your friend group or 1020 00:50:44,765 --> 00:50:46,965 Speaker 2: your circle of friends to make that change, it can 1021 00:50:47,005 --> 00:50:51,805 Speaker 2: be daunting, isolating, and Sarah's conversation I hope will help 1022 00:50:51,885 --> 00:50:54,245 Speaker 2: you with that. As I say, I'm certainly not a 1023 00:50:54,285 --> 00:50:57,285 Speaker 2: sober person, but I know that I am much more 1024 00:50:57,285 --> 00:50:59,845 Speaker 2: interested in moderation now than I was in my twenties, 1025 00:50:59,885 --> 00:51:02,325 Speaker 2: and I find these kind of conversations like the one 1026 00:51:02,325 --> 00:51:04,805 Speaker 2: I've just had with Sarah it's so interesting. I hope 1027 00:51:05,205 --> 00:51:07,125 Speaker 2: it's been helpful for you too. And if you want 1028 00:51:07,165 --> 00:51:09,845 Speaker 2: to learn more about what Sarah does, links in our 1029 00:51:09,845 --> 00:51:12,725 Speaker 2: show notes here to tell you more about her programs 1030 00:51:12,725 --> 00:51:16,365 Speaker 2: and also more about her book, So go and check 1031 00:51:16,405 --> 00:51:19,405 Speaker 2: that out. The host and creator of No Filter is 1032 00:51:19,485 --> 00:51:23,325 Speaker 2: Mia Friedman. Our executive producer is Niama Brown. Our audio 1033 00:51:23,405 --> 00:51:26,245 Speaker 2: design and sound production is by Jacob Brown. And I've 1034 00:51:26,245 --> 00:51:29,965 Speaker 2: been your guest host Holly Wainwright. Cheers to you friends, 1035 00:51:30,325 --> 00:51:32,845 Speaker 2: whether it's shampas or sprite in your glass.