1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,662 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,702 --> 00:00:24,942 Speaker 1: recorded on growing up in an ultra conservative Pentecostal church 4 00:00:24,982 --> 00:00:28,782 Speaker 1: in the suburbs of Geelong. Stacy remembers feeling like royalty. 5 00:00:29,382 --> 00:00:32,662 Speaker 1: She was related to the all powerful pastor Nol Hollins, 6 00:00:33,262 --> 00:00:36,462 Speaker 1: the man whose word everyone followed as gospel. She got 7 00:00:36,542 --> 00:00:39,902 Speaker 1: VIP access to lunch on Sundays and life was good. 8 00:00:40,422 --> 00:00:42,742 Speaker 1: She'd been born into the church and she didn't know 9 00:00:42,822 --> 00:00:45,422 Speaker 1: any other way. If you were part of the Geelong 10 00:00:45,462 --> 00:00:49,182 Speaker 1: Revival Center, you didn't question the Lord, and you certainly 11 00:00:49,422 --> 00:00:53,542 Speaker 1: didn't question Pastor Nol no matter how troubling his rules became. 12 00:00:53,982 --> 00:00:55,782 Speaker 2: But those who've got a hunger for the law, that 13 00:00:55,822 --> 00:00:58,862 Speaker 2: word will register and the sheep will come. It's not 14 00:00:58,902 --> 00:01:01,902 Speaker 2: going to stop the Lord's word at all. And all 15 00:01:01,902 --> 00:01:02,662 Speaker 2: the people said. 16 00:01:05,302 --> 00:01:09,782 Speaker 1: For Stacy, everything was fine until it wasn't. At the 17 00:01:09,822 --> 00:01:12,342 Speaker 1: age of eighteen, I mean, Stacy says she was raped 18 00:01:12,462 --> 00:01:15,862 Speaker 1: by a male friend. The pastor found out and told 19 00:01:15,902 --> 00:01:18,502 Speaker 1: her she had to marry him, and that she had 20 00:01:18,542 --> 00:01:21,342 Speaker 1: to be excommunicated kicked out of the church for a year. 21 00:01:21,622 --> 00:01:25,262 Speaker 1: As punishment for having sex before marriage. She was cut 22 00:01:25,302 --> 00:01:28,862 Speaker 1: off from everyone, left completely on her own to deal 23 00:01:28,862 --> 00:01:30,742 Speaker 1: with not only what had happened to her, but the 24 00:01:30,822 --> 00:01:34,942 Speaker 1: future she was being forced into. For Stacy, that time 25 00:01:34,942 --> 00:01:37,422 Speaker 1: in exile was the start of the end. It gave 26 00:01:37,462 --> 00:01:40,862 Speaker 1: her time to question the church. Why were they forcing 27 00:01:40,862 --> 00:01:44,462 Speaker 1: her to marry someone she'd accused of raping her? Why 28 00:01:44,582 --> 00:01:47,622 Speaker 1: was that her fault? Why did she believe the preachings 29 00:01:47,622 --> 00:01:50,502 Speaker 1: of this church so holy when the rules and ramifications 30 00:01:50,582 --> 00:01:54,982 Speaker 1: hurt so deeply? What if she thought the man on 31 00:01:55,022 --> 00:02:09,062 Speaker 1: the platform, her relative, her pastor, was wrong. I'm Jemma 32 00:02:09,062 --> 00:02:12,222 Speaker 1: Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea 33 00:02:12,302 --> 00:02:16,062 Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 34 00:02:16,102 --> 00:02:19,062 Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. Twenty twenty 35 00:02:19,062 --> 00:02:21,902 Speaker 1: four has been a big year for the Geelong Revival Center, 36 00:02:22,462 --> 00:02:25,262 Speaker 1: an ultra conservative church based in the suburbs of a 37 00:02:25,342 --> 00:02:28,742 Speaker 1: Victorian city an hour and a half from Melbourne. In April, 38 00:02:28,782 --> 00:02:32,422 Speaker 1: the controversial longtime leader of the church, Pastor Nol Hollins, 39 00:02:32,862 --> 00:02:35,742 Speaker 1: died at the age of ninety three. Then in August, 40 00:02:36,382 --> 00:02:39,502 Speaker 1: a man named Todd Hubers, who was a senior leader 41 00:02:39,542 --> 00:02:43,262 Speaker 1: at the church pled guilty to the persistent sexual abuse 42 00:02:43,422 --> 00:02:47,102 Speaker 1: of multiple children. It's understood the crimes took place between 43 00:02:47,102 --> 00:02:50,982 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen and twenty twenty three at various locations across 44 00:02:51,022 --> 00:02:54,582 Speaker 1: the Geelong region and the victims were boys aged between 45 00:02:54,622 --> 00:02:58,862 Speaker 1: six and twelve. Hubers are still awaiting sentencing that will 46 00:02:58,902 --> 00:03:02,382 Speaker 1: happen in early twenty twenty five. But this is far 47 00:03:02,462 --> 00:03:06,582 Speaker 1: from the only criminal, confronting and deeply troubling revelation that's 48 00:03:06,622 --> 00:03:10,382 Speaker 1: emerged from the shadowy depths of the cult like church 49 00:03:10,462 --> 00:03:12,782 Speaker 1: church that thousands of Australians have been a part of 50 00:03:12,902 --> 00:03:17,662 Speaker 1: over the decades. A place where alcohol, friends outside of church, medicine, 51 00:03:17,702 --> 00:03:20,982 Speaker 1: and even team sport are banned. A place where the 52 00:03:21,022 --> 00:03:24,102 Speaker 1: pastor is in charge of your dating life, where movie 53 00:03:24,142 --> 00:03:27,102 Speaker 1: style kissing is band and church brothers get to choose 54 00:03:27,142 --> 00:03:29,462 Speaker 1: the women they marry, whether she wants to or not. 55 00:03:30,302 --> 00:03:32,302 Speaker 1: A place where young girls and women are forced to 56 00:03:32,342 --> 00:03:36,382 Speaker 1: reveal intricate details of their sex lives, things like positions 57 00:03:36,382 --> 00:03:39,942 Speaker 1: and timing, even if those experiences came as the result 58 00:03:40,022 --> 00:03:43,742 Speaker 1: of alleged rape. For two years, Richard has been investigating 59 00:03:43,742 --> 00:03:47,822 Speaker 1: the Geelong Revival Center, collecting audio from Noel Hollins and 60 00:03:47,902 --> 00:03:52,142 Speaker 1: stories from cult survivors. For legal reasons, he's been unable 61 00:03:52,182 --> 00:04:01,142 Speaker 1: to share it until now Here's Richard. Richard, tell me 62 00:04:01,782 --> 00:04:04,142 Speaker 1: how you came across this story and just how long 63 00:04:04,182 --> 00:04:05,142 Speaker 1: you've been working on it. 64 00:04:05,742 --> 00:04:08,942 Speaker 2: I came across Pray Harder, or the story that I've 65 00:04:09,182 --> 00:04:12,062 Speaker 2: called Pray Harder in the middle of twenty twenty two. 66 00:04:12,862 --> 00:04:16,862 Speaker 2: I was contacted by a guy who was an ex 67 00:04:16,982 --> 00:04:23,142 Speaker 2: member of this extreme Pentecostal church headquartered in Geelong, and 68 00:04:23,182 --> 00:04:25,782 Speaker 2: it turned out actually that he and I were at 69 00:04:25,862 --> 00:04:29,582 Speaker 2: primary school in a coastal town near to Geelong together 70 00:04:30,142 --> 00:04:34,462 Speaker 2: in the mid nineteen eighties. It just felt like, you know, 71 00:04:34,542 --> 00:04:36,662 Speaker 2: that was meant to be that I was going to 72 00:04:36,702 --> 00:04:40,022 Speaker 2: do this story, and I've been working on it ever 73 00:04:40,102 --> 00:04:43,782 Speaker 2: since then. And through this guy Ryan, I was introduced 74 00:04:43,822 --> 00:04:46,622 Speaker 2: to a number of other former members of the church 75 00:04:46,662 --> 00:04:49,342 Speaker 2: and it kind of just snowballed and spiraled from there. 76 00:04:49,662 --> 00:04:52,502 Speaker 2: My first couple of meetings with people, I couldn't believe 77 00:04:52,582 --> 00:04:55,422 Speaker 2: some of the things I was being told. And you know, 78 00:04:55,502 --> 00:04:58,462 Speaker 2: as much as you want to hear extreme or shocking 79 00:04:58,502 --> 00:05:01,062 Speaker 2: things or whatever as part of you as a journalist, 80 00:05:01,062 --> 00:05:03,262 Speaker 2: that's going it can't be that bad or you know, 81 00:05:03,542 --> 00:05:06,702 Speaker 2: is that a stretch or whatever. Took a few months 82 00:05:06,702 --> 00:05:09,222 Speaker 2: and a number of meetings with you know, quite a 83 00:05:09,262 --> 00:05:13,102 Speaker 2: few people from that church to realize, no, what I'm 84 00:05:13,142 --> 00:05:16,182 Speaker 2: being told is one hundred percent, and then I really 85 00:05:16,262 --> 00:05:18,422 Speaker 2: knew I had to commit to it. 86 00:05:18,862 --> 00:05:21,022 Speaker 1: So you grew up in the area we're talking about 87 00:05:21,022 --> 00:05:24,862 Speaker 1: around Geelong and Victoria. Do you remember hearing about the 88 00:05:24,942 --> 00:05:27,102 Speaker 1: church or did you know about the church growing up? 89 00:05:27,382 --> 00:05:31,342 Speaker 2: I didn't know per se about this particular one. What 90 00:05:31,502 --> 00:05:34,622 Speaker 2: I did know in Geelong is that at that time 91 00:05:34,822 --> 00:05:37,862 Speaker 2: there was quite a strong presence of I guess you 92 00:05:37,902 --> 00:05:44,262 Speaker 2: would call Pentecostal style churches, where they were quite insular 93 00:05:44,382 --> 00:05:48,142 Speaker 2: communities and very popular. I remember some really big churches. 94 00:05:48,222 --> 00:05:52,702 Speaker 2: My dad, after my parents separated, got involved with one 95 00:05:52,742 --> 00:05:55,982 Speaker 2: of those more popular churches, and I remember going to 96 00:05:56,062 --> 00:05:59,262 Speaker 2: a few of the services and the singing and people 97 00:05:59,302 --> 00:06:04,542 Speaker 2: speaking in tongues and things like that that you associate 98 00:06:04,702 --> 00:06:07,582 Speaker 2: with those things, and yeah, I just thought they were 99 00:06:07,622 --> 00:06:09,902 Speaker 2: all one and the same. As a kid, you know, 100 00:06:09,942 --> 00:06:14,582 Speaker 2: you wouldn't distinguish, but yees, certainly that style of religion was. 101 00:06:15,022 --> 00:06:17,622 Speaker 2: I had a small insight into it as a kid 102 00:06:17,622 --> 00:06:21,342 Speaker 2: for a window where my dad was looking for something, 103 00:06:21,502 --> 00:06:23,782 Speaker 2: you know, after her mum separated. 104 00:06:24,102 --> 00:06:26,942 Speaker 1: I know you've been working on this story since twenty 105 00:06:27,022 --> 00:06:30,782 Speaker 1: twenty two. The leader of the church, pastor nol Hollins, 106 00:06:30,942 --> 00:06:33,902 Speaker 1: he died in early twenty twenty four while you're in 107 00:06:33,942 --> 00:06:37,502 Speaker 1: the midst of this investigation. Was that a turning point? 108 00:06:37,622 --> 00:06:40,502 Speaker 2: He carried a lot of fear with him and everyone 109 00:06:40,662 --> 00:06:45,022 Speaker 2: who grew up under him. So PASSERL. Hollins was basically 110 00:06:45,062 --> 00:06:49,382 Speaker 2: the founder and leader of this Geelong Revival Center, which 111 00:06:49,462 --> 00:06:53,622 Speaker 2: is the main church, but it oversees a network of 112 00:06:53,822 --> 00:07:00,222 Speaker 2: about seventeen assemblies across Australia in Queensland, or South Wales, Tasmania, 113 00:07:00,342 --> 00:07:03,662 Speaker 2: South Australia and WA. He'd been running it since I 114 00:07:03,662 --> 00:07:06,702 Speaker 2: think like nineteen fifty eight, even though people who've been 115 00:07:06,742 --> 00:07:10,062 Speaker 2: out ten years or so still could hear his voice, 116 00:07:10,102 --> 00:07:13,422 Speaker 2: and if you people listening to the podcast will hear that. 117 00:07:13,462 --> 00:07:17,502 Speaker 2: It is a very unique and quite I guess intimidating 118 00:07:17,582 --> 00:07:21,142 Speaker 2: voice and certainly the force of his message was kind 119 00:07:21,142 --> 00:07:23,542 Speaker 2: of left an imprint on their heads. So yeah, even 120 00:07:23,582 --> 00:07:26,542 Speaker 2: when people were speaking about him part of them at 121 00:07:26,542 --> 00:07:29,142 Speaker 2: times they would say I feel guilty or I feel 122 00:07:29,182 --> 00:07:31,742 Speaker 2: like I'm doing wrong or my soul is in trouble 123 00:07:32,062 --> 00:07:35,262 Speaker 2: because of what I'm about to tell you about this place. 124 00:07:35,422 --> 00:07:38,902 Speaker 2: He's big on secrets and really big on him having 125 00:07:39,022 --> 00:07:41,662 Speaker 2: total control over everyone and everything. 126 00:07:42,142 --> 00:07:45,742 Speaker 1: So what's paston Knowle's background? Had he come from a 127 00:07:45,782 --> 00:07:48,702 Speaker 1: strictly religious world himself or is it something he came 128 00:07:48,742 --> 00:07:49,902 Speaker 1: to later in life. 129 00:07:50,222 --> 00:07:54,182 Speaker 2: He was born into quite a well off family in 130 00:07:54,742 --> 00:07:58,902 Speaker 2: Hawthorne in Melbourne, and his father was actually a member 131 00:07:58,942 --> 00:08:02,502 Speaker 2: of Parliament in Victoria and served as a minister in 132 00:08:02,542 --> 00:08:06,702 Speaker 2: some governments back in the thirties or forties. And they 133 00:08:06,782 --> 00:08:11,582 Speaker 2: were raised as sort of strict Methodist church. And it 134 00:08:11,702 --> 00:08:14,142 Speaker 2: wasn't until a couple of years after, at the end 135 00:08:14,222 --> 00:08:18,702 Speaker 2: of World War Two that the Hollands family got introduced 136 00:08:18,742 --> 00:08:22,542 Speaker 2: to this new brand of worship and new brand I 137 00:08:22,542 --> 00:08:27,542 Speaker 2: guess of Christianity called the Revival Crusade, and it came 138 00:08:27,902 --> 00:08:31,782 Speaker 2: out of America. A couple of its key points were 139 00:08:32,942 --> 00:08:37,142 Speaker 2: total acceptance of every word in the Bible is literal 140 00:08:37,582 --> 00:08:41,422 Speaker 2: and true, and you have to abide by all those things. 141 00:08:41,462 --> 00:08:46,062 Speaker 2: There's no room for kind of interpretation or seeing things 142 00:08:46,102 --> 00:08:49,422 Speaker 2: as metaphoric or whatever. It was very literal. And the 143 00:08:49,462 --> 00:08:53,462 Speaker 2: other big impression on their family was a concept called 144 00:08:53,502 --> 00:08:58,382 Speaker 2: British Israelism, and what that boils down to is a 145 00:08:58,462 --> 00:09:03,542 Speaker 2: belief that the people of Great Britain and the United States, 146 00:09:03,622 --> 00:09:07,702 Speaker 2: that is, the white people, the descendants of what's called 147 00:09:07,742 --> 00:09:11,462 Speaker 2: the ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and they are basically 148 00:09:11,502 --> 00:09:16,382 Speaker 2: God's chosen people and kind of above other races and 149 00:09:16,422 --> 00:09:21,062 Speaker 2: other religions. And the Hollands family was visited by a 150 00:09:21,102 --> 00:09:24,222 Speaker 2: guy called Tom Foster, who was a massive proponent of 151 00:09:24,462 --> 00:09:29,342 Speaker 2: British Israelism in the post World War two years. And 152 00:09:29,982 --> 00:09:35,342 Speaker 2: what Noel Hollands did was kind of fuse the Revival 153 00:09:35,502 --> 00:09:39,862 Speaker 2: beliefs and style of worship and inject that British israel 154 00:09:40,142 --> 00:09:43,982 Speaker 2: message into his teachings, and that became the cornerstone of 155 00:09:44,062 --> 00:09:46,702 Speaker 2: his doctrine that you want to be a part of 156 00:09:46,702 --> 00:09:51,142 Speaker 2: this church, you have to find salvation through speaking in tongues. 157 00:09:51,182 --> 00:09:53,022 Speaker 2: So you've got to show that you can receive the 158 00:09:53,022 --> 00:09:57,342 Speaker 2: Holy Spirit by speaking tongues, baptism by full immersion in 159 00:09:57,422 --> 00:10:01,222 Speaker 2: a water tank, and then believe this British israel message, 160 00:10:01,262 --> 00:10:05,422 Speaker 2: which is basically that the Anglo Saxon or Anglo Celtic 161 00:10:05,462 --> 00:10:09,182 Speaker 2: people have a special place and a God's chosen people. 162 00:10:09,782 --> 00:10:11,942 Speaker 1: So it's in other words. 163 00:10:11,982 --> 00:10:14,502 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, if you do a deep 164 00:10:14,582 --> 00:10:20,222 Speaker 2: dive into British Israelism. It's been embraced by some KKK 165 00:10:20,502 --> 00:10:24,982 Speaker 2: leaders in the States and is still a cornerstone principle 166 00:10:25,302 --> 00:10:31,222 Speaker 2: of that muscular nationalists Christian fundamentalist movement in America, which 167 00:10:31,262 --> 00:10:36,062 Speaker 2: is quite powerful and has some political power. Yeah, and 168 00:10:36,142 --> 00:10:38,902 Speaker 2: of course they'll accept people in the church from other 169 00:10:39,102 --> 00:10:43,422 Speaker 2: backgrounds and other races. This church, the one that Noel 170 00:10:43,502 --> 00:10:48,822 Speaker 2: Hollins founded and expanded, has branches in Singapore and India 171 00:10:48,862 --> 00:10:54,142 Speaker 2: and the Philippines, Colombia, Sierra Leone. So they're not scared 172 00:10:54,702 --> 00:10:57,222 Speaker 2: or afraid of mixing with other people. But one thing 173 00:10:57,302 --> 00:11:00,862 Speaker 2: he wanted to make clear was that brothers in the church, 174 00:11:00,902 --> 00:11:02,902 Speaker 2: that's what they call, the men who were sent out 175 00:11:02,982 --> 00:11:07,502 Speaker 2: to kind of establish and run these overseas assemblies, are 176 00:11:07,582 --> 00:11:10,342 Speaker 2: not to marry a local girl because they will not 177 00:11:10,422 --> 00:11:11,262 Speaker 2: welcome back. 178 00:11:11,742 --> 00:11:14,342 Speaker 1: It's mind boggling that these other countries accept that. 179 00:11:15,102 --> 00:11:17,942 Speaker 2: Well, they don't know. I mean, they go there, they 180 00:11:18,022 --> 00:11:22,782 Speaker 2: don't go through the normal channels of getting approval from 181 00:11:22,822 --> 00:11:25,782 Speaker 2: government or things like that. They just go out. They 182 00:11:26,022 --> 00:11:29,182 Speaker 2: set up a thing, and they promise salvation, and so 183 00:11:29,222 --> 00:11:32,902 Speaker 2: it's a very seductive message that they have is basically, 184 00:11:33,422 --> 00:11:36,262 Speaker 2: come to us, We've got a way that will solve 185 00:11:36,622 --> 00:11:40,102 Speaker 2: all your problems in your current life. Because all you've 186 00:11:40,102 --> 00:11:43,702 Speaker 2: got to do is pray harder, do what we say, 187 00:11:44,542 --> 00:11:47,822 Speaker 2: things will be okay. And then that this life is 188 00:11:47,862 --> 00:11:50,942 Speaker 2: only temporary anyway, that the end of the world is 189 00:11:51,142 --> 00:11:54,582 Speaker 2: fast approaching. By being part of this church, you will 190 00:11:54,622 --> 00:11:58,982 Speaker 2: earn eternal life. So you know that for people who 191 00:11:59,022 --> 00:12:00,982 Speaker 2: have got a lot of problems or whatever, this is 192 00:12:01,022 --> 00:12:04,422 Speaker 2: a quick fix with a promise of something everlasting, and 193 00:12:04,462 --> 00:12:06,942 Speaker 2: all you've got to do is just do what they say. 194 00:12:07,502 --> 00:12:10,262 Speaker 1: Doing what they say comes with a lot of rules 195 00:12:10,622 --> 00:12:14,422 Speaker 1: under pastor Nol. Can you take us through some of those, 196 00:12:14,462 --> 00:12:17,622 Speaker 1: because they were very strict in all facets of life, 197 00:12:17,702 --> 00:12:19,742 Speaker 1: in what you were and weren't allowed to do. 198 00:12:20,222 --> 00:12:23,822 Speaker 2: Yeah, extremely strict. I've never seen anything quite like it. 199 00:12:24,102 --> 00:12:28,262 Speaker 2: For example, extremely patriarchal in that Nola is the head 200 00:12:28,302 --> 00:12:30,462 Speaker 2: of the church, he has a senior group of elders 201 00:12:30,542 --> 00:12:33,742 Speaker 2: under him. Then the man is the head of the household, 202 00:12:33,982 --> 00:12:37,942 Speaker 2: and a woman is basically there to support her husband 203 00:12:38,222 --> 00:12:40,982 Speaker 2: and have kids and make sure her kids don't step 204 00:12:41,022 --> 00:12:43,262 Speaker 2: out of line and only speak when they're spoken to. 205 00:12:44,222 --> 00:12:47,662 Speaker 2: People are encouraged to report on each other, so there's 206 00:12:47,702 --> 00:12:50,422 Speaker 2: a lot of spying and judgment going on and report 207 00:12:50,462 --> 00:12:55,142 Speaker 2: to Pasta. Teenagers aren't allowed to associate with others outside 208 00:12:55,142 --> 00:12:58,982 Speaker 2: of schools, so there's no sleepovers or play dates or 209 00:12:59,022 --> 00:13:02,582 Speaker 2: you know, doing things with non church people, so it's 210 00:13:02,822 --> 00:13:07,782 Speaker 2: very very cloistered. Relationships between you know, teenage boys and 211 00:13:07,822 --> 00:13:11,822 Speaker 2: girls for example, are kind of forbidden, and when people 212 00:13:11,982 --> 00:13:16,142 Speaker 2: turn eighteen, if they want to pair off in the 213 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:20,822 Speaker 2: pastor's words, that has to be approved by Pasta, and 214 00:13:20,862 --> 00:13:23,862 Speaker 2: then they are subject to things like only seeing each 215 00:13:23,862 --> 00:13:27,502 Speaker 2: other once or twice a week, limited phone time. There 216 00:13:27,542 --> 00:13:30,702 Speaker 2: was one famous rule out there they had no movie 217 00:13:30,742 --> 00:13:34,262 Speaker 2: style kissing. And of course, if you happen to grow 218 00:13:34,342 --> 00:13:38,142 Speaker 2: up and realize that you're gay, then you've got a 219 00:13:38,142 --> 00:13:41,462 Speaker 2: massive problem because that's about the worst thing anyone can 220 00:13:41,502 --> 00:13:43,822 Speaker 2: be in that place, and that's going to lead to 221 00:13:43,902 --> 00:13:47,862 Speaker 2: your expulsion from the church, and your family are going 222 00:13:47,942 --> 00:13:50,662 Speaker 2: to be forced to cut you loose, to have nothing 223 00:13:50,702 --> 00:13:53,342 Speaker 2: to do with you. So that's what happens. If someone 224 00:13:53,382 --> 00:13:58,502 Speaker 2: decides to leave, their families are instructed to sever all 225 00:13:58,622 --> 00:14:03,462 Speaker 2: ties and leave someone without a support network on the outside. 226 00:14:03,662 --> 00:14:08,262 Speaker 2: So that's a very grave fear of one being kicked 227 00:14:08,262 --> 00:14:11,342 Speaker 2: out because you lose your salvation in church and you've 228 00:14:11,342 --> 00:14:13,942 Speaker 2: been told the world's about to end. You think you're 229 00:14:13,982 --> 00:14:16,182 Speaker 2: going to go to hell, and two you lose your 230 00:14:16,182 --> 00:14:20,022 Speaker 2: family and your friends, you know. So it's really very, 231 00:14:20,342 --> 00:14:24,342 Speaker 2: very very controlling. And for women in particular too, they 232 00:14:24,382 --> 00:14:28,742 Speaker 2: can't initiate a relationship, so they basically are sitting on 233 00:14:28,782 --> 00:14:31,622 Speaker 2: the shelf waiting for a man in the church and 234 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:33,702 Speaker 2: it could be from one of the other churches around 235 00:14:33,742 --> 00:14:37,702 Speaker 2: Australia that are affiliated with them to go I like you, 236 00:14:37,742 --> 00:14:40,062 Speaker 2: I want to start a relationship with you. And then 237 00:14:40,142 --> 00:14:43,102 Speaker 2: basically that's like a factory farm. 238 00:14:43,222 --> 00:14:44,782 Speaker 1: It's like an arranged marriage kind of thing. 239 00:14:44,782 --> 00:14:47,302 Speaker 2: You don't get a choice, no, because you're just brought 240 00:14:47,382 --> 00:14:51,022 Speaker 2: up to believe that your role is to hopefully be 241 00:14:51,142 --> 00:14:55,342 Speaker 2: chosen to be married. And you know, I've had females, 242 00:14:55,502 --> 00:14:58,462 Speaker 2: you know, young women in the podcast say you don't 243 00:14:58,462 --> 00:15:00,742 Speaker 2: even care who it is or even you just want 244 00:15:00,742 --> 00:15:03,062 Speaker 2: them to be nice and to treat you nice. But 245 00:15:03,182 --> 00:15:07,382 Speaker 2: that's the main goal, because that's all your role in 246 00:15:07,422 --> 00:15:11,662 Speaker 2: life is is to bear children apport your husband, so. 247 00:15:11,662 --> 00:15:13,302 Speaker 1: You're not allowed to work at all. 248 00:15:13,542 --> 00:15:16,822 Speaker 2: There's not a hard and fast rule, but the type 249 00:15:16,862 --> 00:15:20,222 Speaker 2: of job you can do is restricted, and if your 250 00:15:20,302 --> 00:15:22,862 Speaker 2: husband doesn't want you to work, it won't work. And 251 00:15:22,902 --> 00:15:26,942 Speaker 2: also the pastor says where you live you can't choose 252 00:15:26,982 --> 00:15:31,142 Speaker 2: to move. And even your holidays are truncated, like if 253 00:15:31,142 --> 00:15:33,102 Speaker 2: you go on holidays, you have to go to a 254 00:15:33,142 --> 00:15:37,662 Speaker 2: place where there's another affiliated assembly so you can receive 255 00:15:37,782 --> 00:15:41,942 Speaker 2: prayer and communion and fasting and for the kids. You know, 256 00:15:42,222 --> 00:15:44,142 Speaker 2: there's obviously a lot of problems in this too because 257 00:15:44,142 --> 00:15:47,422 Speaker 2: the other thing they encourage is corporal punishment of children. 258 00:15:48,222 --> 00:15:51,502 Speaker 2: Although corporal punishment is still legal when it's just a 259 00:15:51,542 --> 00:15:53,462 Speaker 2: smack or a lot of people choose not to do 260 00:15:53,502 --> 00:15:56,622 Speaker 2: it and think there are better ways. Now what that 261 00:15:56,742 --> 00:15:59,982 Speaker 2: did that constant messaging. One thing that they people said 262 00:15:59,982 --> 00:16:02,542 Speaker 2: they heard over and over was spare the rod, spoil 263 00:16:02,622 --> 00:16:06,182 Speaker 2: the child. Well, that was literal in terms of people 264 00:16:06,262 --> 00:16:10,862 Speaker 2: got caned, belted, hit with fists, choked. So they describe 265 00:16:10,862 --> 00:16:15,502 Speaker 2: some terrifying encounters growing up as children. And also there 266 00:16:15,542 --> 00:16:20,142 Speaker 2: was always a specter or an undercurrent of sexual abuse. 267 00:16:20,662 --> 00:16:24,662 Speaker 2: And you know, another scary thing for kids to face, which. 268 00:16:24,422 --> 00:16:26,302 Speaker 1: I want to get into in a minute. But focusing 269 00:16:26,342 --> 00:16:29,102 Speaker 1: on that more physical abuse of children and how accepted 270 00:16:29,142 --> 00:16:32,822 Speaker 1: it was. It wasn't just the man in your household. 271 00:16:32,902 --> 00:16:37,382 Speaker 1: So your dad, anyone, any man could discipline children, couldn't they. 272 00:16:37,742 --> 00:16:41,262 Speaker 2: Yes, if the children were within your orbit and you 273 00:16:41,422 --> 00:16:44,542 Speaker 2: felt that they needed correction. So the other name for 274 00:16:44,582 --> 00:16:48,582 Speaker 2: that policy was the rod of correction. Yeah, they could 275 00:16:48,662 --> 00:16:53,222 Speaker 2: dish out a punishment without any consequence. And women who 276 00:16:53,262 --> 00:16:56,982 Speaker 2: were perhaps single mothers or stuff in there would find 277 00:16:57,022 --> 00:17:00,982 Speaker 2: themselves having a married brother in the church kind of 278 00:17:01,062 --> 00:17:04,982 Speaker 2: appoint himself as to be the overseer of her house, 279 00:17:05,822 --> 00:17:09,782 Speaker 2: and that would entail him disciplining her children when he 280 00:17:09,822 --> 00:17:10,262 Speaker 2: saw fit. 281 00:17:10,622 --> 00:17:13,342 Speaker 1: This is criminal, isn't it? The physical abuse of children 282 00:17:13,382 --> 00:17:14,542 Speaker 1: at this kind of extent. 283 00:17:15,062 --> 00:17:17,702 Speaker 2: I would argue that, Yeah, from what I was told 284 00:17:17,782 --> 00:17:21,422 Speaker 2: and what the podcast has, there are clear cut examples 285 00:17:21,422 --> 00:17:25,662 Speaker 2: of criminal abuse within the place, going back in some 286 00:17:25,742 --> 00:17:26,822 Speaker 2: cases decades. 287 00:17:27,342 --> 00:17:31,902 Speaker 1: And then there's the allegations of sexual assaultment abuse against children. 288 00:17:32,542 --> 00:17:34,462 Speaker 1: You were told, not just like one or two, you 289 00:17:34,502 --> 00:17:36,302 Speaker 1: were told numerous stories about this. 290 00:17:36,142 --> 00:17:39,462 Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, and that you know, maybe it has something 291 00:17:39,462 --> 00:17:43,382 Speaker 2: to do with the extreme rules and the strictness put 292 00:17:43,462 --> 00:17:46,782 Speaker 2: on those relationships, on the ability to actually have a 293 00:17:46,782 --> 00:17:50,902 Speaker 2: physical relationship with somebody else as you're growing up, and 294 00:17:50,902 --> 00:17:54,062 Speaker 2: that's how we learn along the way in the outside 295 00:17:54,142 --> 00:17:57,342 Speaker 2: world or the normal world. Maybe that's a factor in 296 00:17:57,382 --> 00:18:01,822 Speaker 2: there being this kind of undercurrent of abusive sexual abuse 297 00:18:01,902 --> 00:18:06,542 Speaker 2: in there with children because people aren't formed in their relationships, 298 00:18:06,662 --> 00:18:09,542 Speaker 2: or they just have opportunity and access. I don't know, 299 00:18:09,742 --> 00:18:12,462 Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, it's certainly a factor in the stories. 300 00:18:12,622 --> 00:18:15,742 Speaker 2: Again what I've been told that we put out in 301 00:18:15,822 --> 00:18:20,502 Speaker 2: the podcast, and not all of these things were immediately 302 00:18:20,622 --> 00:18:25,542 Speaker 2: or ever reported to police. Certainly the pastor, Pastor Noel 303 00:18:25,862 --> 00:18:29,022 Speaker 2: made it clear that he was the authority in every matter, 304 00:18:29,502 --> 00:18:32,382 Speaker 2: and he was the first port of call rather than 305 00:18:32,422 --> 00:18:36,462 Speaker 2: any external or secular authorities when it came to anything 306 00:18:36,502 --> 00:18:38,822 Speaker 2: that happened within the church. It was his realm. 307 00:18:39,422 --> 00:18:41,222 Speaker 1: So a lot of these people you've spoken to with 308 00:18:41,262 --> 00:18:45,422 Speaker 1: these allegations, they say that pastorol knew about the abuse. 309 00:18:46,022 --> 00:18:50,382 Speaker 2: Yep, they do. Basically was dismissive of it unless there 310 00:18:50,542 --> 00:18:56,262 Speaker 2: was an admission from a perpetrator that something had taken place. 311 00:18:56,742 --> 00:18:59,542 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, I've had people tell me in 312 00:18:59,582 --> 00:19:03,302 Speaker 2: the podcast and tell me outside of that that. Basically 313 00:19:03,302 --> 00:19:05,342 Speaker 2: his response was that sort of stuff doesn't happen here. 314 00:19:05,662 --> 00:19:07,582 Speaker 1: I want to give listeners an example so they know 315 00:19:07,942 --> 00:19:09,822 Speaker 1: the kinds of stories we're talking about. Can you tell 316 00:19:09,862 --> 00:19:12,062 Speaker 1: us a little bit about Robert and what happened to him. 317 00:19:12,502 --> 00:19:16,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Robert is one of the oldest sort of people. 318 00:19:16,262 --> 00:19:18,782 Speaker 2: I guess in the podcast he'd be in his fifties. 319 00:19:19,342 --> 00:19:22,862 Speaker 2: So he was describing his sort of teenage years in 320 00:19:22,902 --> 00:19:27,302 Speaker 2: the eighties. At one summer camp. He tells a story 321 00:19:27,342 --> 00:19:33,022 Speaker 2: of basically been groomed by a young male in the 322 00:19:33,142 --> 00:19:36,942 Speaker 2: church who was probably ten or so years he's senior 323 00:19:37,262 --> 00:19:39,622 Speaker 2: in that they'd spend a bit of time together. They'd 324 00:19:39,622 --> 00:19:42,982 Speaker 2: go surfing. Then this guy sort of introduced him to 325 00:19:43,902 --> 00:19:48,662 Speaker 2: some soft porn mags and then yeah, started doing things 326 00:19:48,662 --> 00:19:51,862 Speaker 2: to Robert and encouraging Robert to do things to him, 327 00:19:51,902 --> 00:19:54,102 Speaker 2: to say, this is what you do, this will make 328 00:19:54,142 --> 00:19:57,702 Speaker 2: you feel nice and stuff, and yeah, Robert told his 329 00:19:58,142 --> 00:20:01,742 Speaker 2: parents and they really didn't believe him and found its 330 00:20:01,742 --> 00:20:04,262 Speaker 2: way to the pastor and he didn't believe it either. 331 00:20:04,302 --> 00:20:07,822 Speaker 2: So this poor kid in Robert is left to feel 332 00:20:08,422 --> 00:20:12,462 Speaker 2: abandoned and unsupported that no one believed him. I know 333 00:20:12,542 --> 00:20:16,942 Speaker 2: the guy he's referring to. I've heard accounts of Robert 334 00:20:16,982 --> 00:20:19,462 Speaker 2: not being the only one to suffer at the hands 335 00:20:19,462 --> 00:20:23,422 Speaker 2: of this this man back then. Robert left the church 336 00:20:24,022 --> 00:20:26,822 Speaker 2: not that long after, and that meant the rest of 337 00:20:26,822 --> 00:20:31,582 Speaker 2: his life. He's been excommunicated by his family. His mother 338 00:20:31,622 --> 00:20:33,182 Speaker 2: won't recognize. 339 00:20:32,662 --> 00:20:35,142 Speaker 1: Him because of that, because of what happened. 340 00:20:34,902 --> 00:20:38,862 Speaker 2: To him, because he left. Yeah, but the reason he 341 00:20:38,942 --> 00:20:43,822 Speaker 2: left was their failure to believe him or accept that 342 00:20:44,182 --> 00:20:47,222 Speaker 2: what he was telling them was true. It was just no, 343 00:20:47,342 --> 00:20:49,422 Speaker 2: this doesn't happen. You're making it up. 344 00:20:52,222 --> 00:20:55,982 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass. 345 00:20:56,422 --> 00:20:59,942 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalist and podcaster Richard Baker about the 346 00:20:59,942 --> 00:21:03,942 Speaker 1: Geelong Revival Center cult. Up next, we talk about Stacy's 347 00:21:03,982 --> 00:21:13,702 Speaker 1: story and how she managed to escape the church. Probably 348 00:21:13,742 --> 00:21:17,382 Speaker 1: one of the most shocking stories in your podcast involves 349 00:21:17,462 --> 00:21:20,502 Speaker 1: a woman you called Stacy, who was actually a relative 350 00:21:20,782 --> 00:21:25,742 Speaker 1: of Pastoral, and she claims that she was raped and 351 00:21:25,782 --> 00:21:29,422 Speaker 1: that Pastoral knew about it and told her she had 352 00:21:29,462 --> 00:21:32,982 Speaker 1: to marry him. That is a huge statement to make. 353 00:21:33,102 --> 00:21:33,902 Speaker 1: That's harrowing. 354 00:21:34,622 --> 00:21:38,702 Speaker 2: It is it's hard to comprehend. I mean I sat 355 00:21:38,742 --> 00:21:42,062 Speaker 2: across from Stacy when I was interviewing her, and when 356 00:21:42,102 --> 00:21:45,062 Speaker 2: she got to this part of her story, I honestly 357 00:21:45,102 --> 00:21:49,222 Speaker 2: could say physical change come over her. And I don't 358 00:21:49,262 --> 00:21:51,062 Speaker 2: even know if you know she was aware of that 359 00:21:51,262 --> 00:21:55,102 Speaker 2: or not. But as she recounted her alleged rape and 360 00:21:55,142 --> 00:21:59,542 Speaker 2: then the pastor, who was her senior male relative in 361 00:21:59,582 --> 00:22:03,822 Speaker 2: her family, his response to it, her bottom lip was trembling, 362 00:22:04,342 --> 00:22:08,382 Speaker 2: So you know, it clearly had a visceral effect on 363 00:22:08,902 --> 00:22:13,302 Speaker 2: her recounting it to me. So basically, she was eighteen 364 00:22:13,662 --> 00:22:17,702 Speaker 2: and again grown up in this extremely strict and controlled 365 00:22:18,302 --> 00:22:23,222 Speaker 2: environment where the expectations placed on a young woman were very, 366 00:22:23,302 --> 00:22:26,022 Speaker 2: very extreme and constant. You were being watched for your 367 00:22:26,022 --> 00:22:29,822 Speaker 2: behavior all the time. Look, she struck up a relationship 368 00:22:30,102 --> 00:22:34,022 Speaker 2: with a young guy in the Geelong area, and that 369 00:22:34,622 --> 00:22:38,142 Speaker 2: turned out to be an abusive relationship, and you know 370 00:22:38,342 --> 00:22:40,702 Speaker 2: the story of their first I guess I'm talking in 371 00:22:40,702 --> 00:22:44,582 Speaker 2: inverted commas here, you know, a sexual interaction they got outed. 372 00:22:44,942 --> 00:22:48,942 Speaker 2: She actually revealed how that took place, which is an 373 00:22:48,942 --> 00:22:51,822 Speaker 2: alleged ray. So she had to go and confront past 374 00:22:51,822 --> 00:22:55,582 Speaker 2: her with this, because putting yourself in that situation, if 375 00:22:55,582 --> 00:22:58,422 Speaker 2: you're a woman or finding yourself in that situation is 376 00:22:58,862 --> 00:23:01,822 Speaker 2: a breach of the rules, and you're a plane. And 377 00:23:01,902 --> 00:23:04,022 Speaker 2: she was to be punished, and she knew she was 378 00:23:04,062 --> 00:23:07,302 Speaker 2: going to be put out of fellowship. According to their beliefs, 379 00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:10,662 Speaker 2: if the world ends while you're out, you go to hell, 380 00:23:10,822 --> 00:23:14,022 Speaker 2: and also you separated from your family. Now, the other 381 00:23:14,102 --> 00:23:17,782 Speaker 2: thing he said, according to her, was that the only 382 00:23:17,822 --> 00:23:21,102 Speaker 2: way we can half make this right is for you 383 00:23:21,182 --> 00:23:24,462 Speaker 2: to marry this guy. That was the only way. She's 384 00:23:24,462 --> 00:23:25,982 Speaker 2: still going to be punished for a bit, but it 385 00:23:25,982 --> 00:23:29,662 Speaker 2: wouldn't be as severe. But that was how to fix 386 00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:35,342 Speaker 2: this problem. The guy who claim raped you and took 387 00:23:35,382 --> 00:23:38,782 Speaker 2: your virginity and all that away from you is going 388 00:23:38,822 --> 00:23:39,502 Speaker 2: to be your husband. 389 00:23:39,822 --> 00:23:41,822 Speaker 1: Did she do it? Did she marry him? No? 390 00:23:42,462 --> 00:23:47,542 Speaker 2: That ended her relationship with the church, cause tremendous upheaval 391 00:23:47,702 --> 00:23:52,582 Speaker 2: in her family group because her dad had to stick 392 00:23:52,662 --> 00:23:56,702 Speaker 2: up for her and cross swords with Noel, who he 393 00:23:56,782 --> 00:24:00,262 Speaker 2: was related to. You know, the battle scars from all 394 00:24:00,342 --> 00:24:03,542 Speaker 2: that they still wear that to this day. But he 395 00:24:03,622 --> 00:24:05,982 Speaker 2: had to stand up for his daughter because she was 396 00:24:06,022 --> 00:24:08,382 Speaker 2: going to be forced to marry her abuser. 397 00:24:08,822 --> 00:24:14,462 Speaker 1: This story Stacy's story of being excommunicated or being kicked out. 398 00:24:14,622 --> 00:24:17,742 Speaker 1: It felt like a common theme throughout your investigation of 399 00:24:17,742 --> 00:24:21,822 Speaker 1: these families being torn apart, often for things like this 400 00:24:21,942 --> 00:24:25,422 Speaker 1: that were not their fault. You mentioned before people who 401 00:24:25,582 --> 00:24:29,622 Speaker 1: are gay that also warrants you an excommunication from the church. 402 00:24:30,942 --> 00:24:32,702 Speaker 1: Is that something that you found over and over again 403 00:24:32,742 --> 00:24:35,302 Speaker 1: that families were just being forced to kind of kick 404 00:24:35,702 --> 00:24:36,462 Speaker 1: members out. 405 00:24:36,742 --> 00:24:40,782 Speaker 2: Yeah. To me, that's the biggest tragedy of a place 406 00:24:40,982 --> 00:24:45,862 Speaker 2: like this is the destruction of families generation after generation. 407 00:24:46,182 --> 00:24:48,902 Speaker 2: You know, because this has been around for seventy years, 408 00:24:48,902 --> 00:24:52,022 Speaker 2: this network of churches. The ripple effects of that. You know, 409 00:24:52,422 --> 00:24:56,662 Speaker 2: we've got families that have had suicides and stuff because 410 00:24:56,742 --> 00:25:01,862 Speaker 2: of the trauma of being split apart from your children 411 00:25:02,022 --> 00:25:06,142 Speaker 2: or your brothers and sisters and ex wives whatever. People 412 00:25:06,142 --> 00:25:08,182 Speaker 2: have taken their own lives and then they're made an 413 00:25:08,182 --> 00:25:11,542 Speaker 2: example of by the leaders of the church just to say, well, 414 00:25:11,542 --> 00:25:14,222 Speaker 2: this is what happens if you leave without looking at 415 00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:16,982 Speaker 2: the reasons why something happens, you know, in terms of 416 00:25:17,222 --> 00:25:22,062 Speaker 2: the forced separation of family. Yeah, I just found that 417 00:25:22,302 --> 00:25:27,542 Speaker 2: the biggest, most kind of I guess emotional response I 418 00:25:27,582 --> 00:25:29,662 Speaker 2: had was just hit you over the head when you 419 00:25:29,742 --> 00:25:31,702 Speaker 2: hear it time and time again, and you look at it, 420 00:25:31,742 --> 00:25:34,382 Speaker 2: and you look at the damage done and equate that 421 00:25:34,422 --> 00:25:37,182 Speaker 2: with your own life and how important family is for 422 00:25:37,262 --> 00:25:41,622 Speaker 2: most of us. To have that denied just because you've 423 00:25:41,662 --> 00:25:44,622 Speaker 2: made a life decision for yourself, you know, I think 424 00:25:44,622 --> 00:25:45,542 Speaker 2: that's criminal. 425 00:25:45,822 --> 00:25:47,462 Speaker 1: It's probably also a good time to bring in the 426 00:25:47,542 --> 00:25:51,182 Speaker 1: term backslider, because that's different to being excommunicated. Can you 427 00:25:51,222 --> 00:25:52,182 Speaker 1: talk us through the difference? 428 00:25:52,702 --> 00:25:56,102 Speaker 2: So you can be excommunicated for a while as punishment, right, 429 00:25:56,182 --> 00:25:58,862 Speaker 2: But then a lot of people who get that work 430 00:25:59,022 --> 00:26:02,342 Speaker 2: very hard to correct themselves so they'll be welcome back in. 431 00:26:03,022 --> 00:26:06,982 Speaker 2: Backslider is also shunned, cut off from their family. But 432 00:26:07,022 --> 00:26:10,182 Speaker 2: a backslider is someone who leaves by choice, and that's 433 00:26:10,222 --> 00:26:12,902 Speaker 2: the word that is given to those people. And they 434 00:26:12,902 --> 00:26:16,422 Speaker 2: are the lowest of the low. They are described frequently 435 00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:19,502 Speaker 2: as being lower than a dog were returning to its 436 00:26:19,542 --> 00:26:23,142 Speaker 2: own vomit, and that backsliders you had to have nothing 437 00:26:23,142 --> 00:26:25,782 Speaker 2: to do with them because they know they're going to 438 00:26:25,822 --> 00:26:28,062 Speaker 2: bring you on a pathway to hell and cost you 439 00:26:28,062 --> 00:26:28,702 Speaker 2: your salvation. 440 00:26:29,342 --> 00:26:32,902 Speaker 1: So you could leave, it just cost you your entire world, 441 00:26:32,942 --> 00:26:35,102 Speaker 1: your entire life, your family, your friends. 442 00:26:35,422 --> 00:26:39,742 Speaker 2: Yeah, one guy, Gary, he decided to leave after a lifetime, 443 00:26:39,822 --> 00:26:42,462 Speaker 2: you know, half a lifetime. He's in his forties in 444 00:26:42,502 --> 00:26:45,462 Speaker 2: the church, he could no longer do it. He tried 445 00:26:45,462 --> 00:26:48,062 Speaker 2: to take ease. He wanted his daughters, who were teens 446 00:26:48,102 --> 00:26:51,062 Speaker 2: then to come with him. They wouldn't. They've stayed in 447 00:26:51,622 --> 00:26:55,662 Speaker 2: His ex wife is remarried in there, and he's not 448 00:26:56,142 --> 00:26:59,422 Speaker 2: has seen his daughters now, I think for six years, 449 00:26:59,982 --> 00:27:02,622 Speaker 2: and they live eight kilometers away from him, have nothing 450 00:27:02,662 --> 00:27:05,822 Speaker 2: to do with him. They've been married off or will 451 00:27:05,822 --> 00:27:08,382 Speaker 2: be married off or whatever to someone in the church. 452 00:27:08,462 --> 00:27:10,182 Speaker 2: And so it continues. 453 00:27:10,582 --> 00:27:13,382 Speaker 1: One case we can talk about that has been through 454 00:27:13,422 --> 00:27:16,502 Speaker 1: the court system is Todd Hubers. Can you touch on 455 00:27:16,862 --> 00:27:19,502 Speaker 1: him and who he was within the church. He has 456 00:27:20,222 --> 00:27:24,102 Speaker 1: pled guilty to sixteen charges, including the sexual penetration and 457 00:27:24,142 --> 00:27:26,782 Speaker 1: touching of boys young boys. 458 00:27:27,102 --> 00:27:30,222 Speaker 2: For his plea hearing, you know, the court was told 459 00:27:30,422 --> 00:27:34,622 Speaker 2: in you know, really explicit terms, the depravity of what 460 00:27:34,702 --> 00:27:39,262 Speaker 2: he did. So Todd Hubers was a man born into 461 00:27:39,342 --> 00:27:42,822 Speaker 2: a church family, raised in this setting, in his really 462 00:27:42,862 --> 00:27:48,422 Speaker 2: restrictive environment, talented musician, taught music to a number of 463 00:27:48,462 --> 00:27:52,662 Speaker 2: the kids in the church, and he admitted in court 464 00:27:52,822 --> 00:27:55,662 Speaker 2: to having a lifelong or a twenty five year addiction 465 00:27:55,822 --> 00:28:01,302 Speaker 2: to child pornography. And he started in twenty sixteen to 466 00:28:01,902 --> 00:28:06,262 Speaker 2: abuse young boys in the Geelong region, now suggesting that 467 00:28:06,302 --> 00:28:10,342 Speaker 2: those victims are from the church there, but certainly young 468 00:28:10,462 --> 00:28:14,262 Speaker 2: always from the Geelong region who he came into contact with. 469 00:28:14,742 --> 00:28:20,542 Speaker 2: And yeah, he operated this thing called Boys Club. He 470 00:28:20,582 --> 00:28:24,742 Speaker 2: built a loft in his garage, a mezzanine sort of loft. 471 00:28:25,102 --> 00:28:29,022 Speaker 2: Abuse took place there on trips to swimming pools and 472 00:28:29,062 --> 00:28:31,982 Speaker 2: things there. And when we're talking abuse here, I don't 473 00:28:32,022 --> 00:28:35,462 Speaker 2: want to downgrade any form of abuse, but the stuff 474 00:28:35,502 --> 00:28:39,462 Speaker 2: that he has admitted to doing to boys age between 475 00:28:39,542 --> 00:28:43,982 Speaker 2: six and twelve is at the extreme end of offending. 476 00:28:45,022 --> 00:28:48,902 Speaker 2: What was interesting was that in January twenty twenty three 477 00:28:49,222 --> 00:28:54,382 Speaker 2: Hubers went to see Pastor Noel Hollands and made some 478 00:28:54,462 --> 00:28:58,222 Speaker 2: partial admissions to him about what he'd been up to. 479 00:28:58,942 --> 00:29:03,422 Speaker 2: Hollands said, well, you better turn yourself into police. And 480 00:29:03,542 --> 00:29:08,982 Speaker 2: Hollands himself didn't contact police about what a member of 481 00:29:09,062 --> 00:29:12,622 Speaker 2: his church had confest to him about for perhaps a 482 00:29:12,702 --> 00:29:16,582 Speaker 2: day day and a half later from hearing that information, 483 00:29:16,902 --> 00:29:20,022 Speaker 2: and Huberts took four days to hand himself in and 484 00:29:20,102 --> 00:29:24,382 Speaker 2: during the course of that time he admitted to deleting 485 00:29:24,502 --> 00:29:30,622 Speaker 2: perhaps terror, bites of child putography from his devices that 486 00:29:30,982 --> 00:29:34,782 Speaker 2: police cyber experts have not been able to fully recover 487 00:29:34,902 --> 00:29:39,982 Speaker 2: because he was a skilled it professional and as we know, 488 00:29:40,142 --> 00:29:43,422 Speaker 2: obviously having it and watching and downloading that material is 489 00:29:43,462 --> 00:29:47,302 Speaker 2: a really serious crime. And to have that amount you 490 00:29:47,502 --> 00:29:52,622 Speaker 2: just multiply the abusive children that would be contained in 491 00:29:52,662 --> 00:29:55,662 Speaker 2: that And that was part of Boys Club too. Some 492 00:29:55,782 --> 00:30:00,262 Speaker 2: of the things he did with the boys there was 493 00:30:00,902 --> 00:30:04,302 Speaker 2: make them watch that kind of material, you know. The 494 00:30:04,342 --> 00:30:07,062 Speaker 2: court heard that it might have perhaps been a couple 495 00:30:07,062 --> 00:30:10,862 Speaker 2: of early warning signs back in twenty sixteen that his 496 00:30:10,942 --> 00:30:16,342 Speaker 2: addiction was getting worse and his behavior more risky and criminal, 497 00:30:16,582 --> 00:30:19,502 Speaker 2: but he was able to explain a couple of things 498 00:30:19,662 --> 00:30:23,342 Speaker 2: away and was given the benefit of the doubt by 499 00:30:23,342 --> 00:30:27,742 Speaker 2: those closer to him. This emboldened him and enabled him 500 00:30:27,822 --> 00:30:32,342 Speaker 2: to go about grooming young boys in the Geelong region, 501 00:30:32,742 --> 00:30:35,302 Speaker 2: introducing them to his so called boys Club. 502 00:30:35,582 --> 00:30:37,422 Speaker 1: Well, as you said, he came from this world, this 503 00:30:37,502 --> 00:30:42,022 Speaker 1: church world, where men ruled over everyone, women and children primarily, 504 00:30:43,022 --> 00:30:44,582 Speaker 1: and they were allowed to get away with a lot 505 00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:47,182 Speaker 1: of things. Not saying this, but that's the world. He 506 00:30:47,342 --> 00:30:47,982 Speaker 1: grew up. 507 00:30:47,902 --> 00:30:52,862 Speaker 2: In your values and your relationships, I think aren't fully 508 00:30:52,942 --> 00:30:56,422 Speaker 2: formed in a place where there are such tight controls 509 00:30:56,462 --> 00:30:59,542 Speaker 2: and guidelines on everything that you do and who you 510 00:30:59,542 --> 00:31:02,022 Speaker 2: can talk to, when you can, how you talk. It 511 00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:05,862 Speaker 2: just doesn't create a normal setting for it, and a 512 00:31:05,902 --> 00:31:09,182 Speaker 2: warped sense of morality because if you think about it, 513 00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:11,462 Speaker 2: when you're growing up in a place where the ultimate 514 00:31:11,702 --> 00:31:16,422 Speaker 2: arbiter of right and wrong is your pastor, your sense 515 00:31:16,502 --> 00:31:20,462 Speaker 2: of morality and your moral settings aren't the same as 516 00:31:20,582 --> 00:31:23,102 Speaker 2: a wider society, because you remember, this is a church 517 00:31:23,222 --> 00:31:28,422 Speaker 2: that does not like wider society, and frequently members are 518 00:31:28,422 --> 00:31:32,622 Speaker 2: told we're at war with the outside world. Then they 519 00:31:32,622 --> 00:31:33,502 Speaker 2: don't understand this. 520 00:31:35,782 --> 00:31:38,622 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Richard about the church banning 521 00:31:38,702 --> 00:31:42,062 Speaker 1: medicine and how that ended up causing severe illness and 522 00:31:42,102 --> 00:31:52,422 Speaker 1: even death among its followers. The other area you explore 523 00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:57,062 Speaker 1: in detail is the pastor and the church's rejection of medicine. 524 00:31:57,902 --> 00:32:00,662 Speaker 1: Can you expand on that a bit, because the ramifications 525 00:32:00,702 --> 00:32:03,942 Speaker 1: of a rule like that which you explore are horrible 526 00:32:04,662 --> 00:32:05,462 Speaker 1: to say the least. 527 00:32:05,902 --> 00:32:09,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, the rule of the expectation of putting prayer ahead 528 00:32:09,862 --> 00:32:14,862 Speaker 2: of medicine and was definitely right throughout this network of churches. 529 00:32:15,102 --> 00:32:21,702 Speaker 2: Some pastors had stricter interpretations or expectations around the use 530 00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:25,262 Speaker 2: of medicine. What people described was that Yeah, members were 531 00:32:25,582 --> 00:32:31,862 Speaker 2: discouraged from relying on the medical community and science because 532 00:32:31,862 --> 00:32:33,942 Speaker 2: this is a place that rejects a lot of science, 533 00:32:33,982 --> 00:32:37,862 Speaker 2: to the theory of evolution according to past knowledge, just 534 00:32:37,982 --> 00:32:42,982 Speaker 2: garbage and Yeah. People suffering life threatening illnesses like cancer 535 00:32:43,262 --> 00:32:47,942 Speaker 2: and different things often denied themselves or were discouraged or 536 00:32:48,022 --> 00:32:50,622 Speaker 2: believed that they were not right with God if they 537 00:32:50,622 --> 00:32:53,862 Speaker 2: went and sought treatment, because they'd been told that if 538 00:32:53,902 --> 00:32:57,182 Speaker 2: they were walking in the spirit and with the Lord, 539 00:32:57,542 --> 00:33:02,062 Speaker 2: then they'd be healed. And so families and people who 540 00:33:02,262 --> 00:33:07,862 Speaker 2: had serious medical issues either didn't seek treatment, delayed treatment, 541 00:33:08,182 --> 00:33:13,262 Speaker 2: had infrequent treatment, and then when they weren't healed, or 542 00:33:13,262 --> 00:33:16,942 Speaker 2: the problem didn't go away, or someone died, they made 543 00:33:16,982 --> 00:33:20,462 Speaker 2: to feel guilty that this happened. They had a spiritual problem. 544 00:33:20,502 --> 00:33:24,302 Speaker 2: There was something not right with them. So the psychological 545 00:33:24,622 --> 00:33:28,062 Speaker 2: effect was also profound, let alone just the physical effect 546 00:33:28,102 --> 00:33:32,702 Speaker 2: of perhaps not having the best of medical treatment for 547 00:33:32,982 --> 00:33:35,942 Speaker 2: whatever was afflicting them. As a story going for a 548 00:33:36,062 --> 00:33:39,302 Speaker 2: case going through the courts in Brisbane now involving the 549 00:33:39,342 --> 00:33:41,982 Speaker 2: death of an eight year old girl called Elizabeth Strus, 550 00:33:42,142 --> 00:33:45,382 Speaker 2: who was into Woomba and her family were part of 551 00:33:45,422 --> 00:33:49,142 Speaker 2: a really strict church that practiced many of these same beliefs. 552 00:33:49,342 --> 00:33:52,982 Speaker 2: She was diabetic and they denied her insulin in the 553 00:33:53,022 --> 00:33:56,702 Speaker 2: belief that prayer would heal. She died weighing twenty two 554 00:33:56,782 --> 00:33:59,942 Speaker 2: kilos on a mattress in her house, and her parents 555 00:33:59,982 --> 00:34:03,102 Speaker 2: and the other members of the church prayed around her 556 00:34:03,102 --> 00:34:07,062 Speaker 2: body for thirty six hours, believing she'd be resurrected. These things, 557 00:34:07,102 --> 00:34:10,942 Speaker 2: as unbelievable as they sound to most of us, happening 558 00:34:11,182 --> 00:34:14,582 Speaker 2: in Australia, in places like this church, and. 559 00:34:14,582 --> 00:34:18,422 Speaker 1: Are happening in twenty twenty four. Still yeah, Do we 560 00:34:18,462 --> 00:34:21,742 Speaker 1: go as far as calling this geelong Revival Center and 561 00:34:21,782 --> 00:34:23,022 Speaker 1: it's affiliates? Is it a cult? 562 00:34:23,622 --> 00:34:26,662 Speaker 2: I think it meets the definitions. If your liberties and 563 00:34:26,702 --> 00:34:29,742 Speaker 2: your freedoms are taken away from you, and the belief 564 00:34:29,782 --> 00:34:32,422 Speaker 2: that you have to behave and think a certain way 565 00:34:32,542 --> 00:34:39,062 Speaker 2: and basically give over all autonomy to one man, that 566 00:34:39,222 --> 00:34:41,822 Speaker 2: to me suggests it's a cult. I guess the most 567 00:34:41,862 --> 00:34:44,902 Speaker 2: important thing in answering that question, perhaps it's not for 568 00:34:44,942 --> 00:34:48,942 Speaker 2: me to say, but what former members say? What do 569 00:34:49,022 --> 00:34:51,582 Speaker 2: they think they were in you know, when they look 570 00:34:51,662 --> 00:34:56,262 Speaker 2: back on their decades of living this way, most of 571 00:34:56,302 --> 00:34:59,022 Speaker 2: them think it meets the definition of a cult or 572 00:34:59,062 --> 00:35:02,102 Speaker 2: a cult like group, and there are lots of them 573 00:35:02,102 --> 00:35:06,502 Speaker 2: in Australia. It's hard because politicians don't like and for 574 00:35:06,582 --> 00:35:11,022 Speaker 2: good reasons, sometimes crossing over and putting barriers on religion freedom. 575 00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:15,142 Speaker 2: But to have religious freedom also, I think comes with 576 00:35:15,262 --> 00:35:20,702 Speaker 2: responsibility to ensure people aren't harmed, and particularly when you 577 00:35:20,782 --> 00:35:23,582 Speaker 2: say people, for me, it's children who have no choice. 578 00:35:24,342 --> 00:35:28,302 Speaker 2: An adult can choose to subject themselves to this kind 579 00:35:28,382 --> 00:35:31,862 Speaker 2: of life and then yeah, perhaps once they're in, you know, 580 00:35:31,982 --> 00:35:34,262 Speaker 2: it changes into something that I didn't think it would be. 581 00:35:34,262 --> 00:35:36,582 Speaker 2: But it's too hard to get out. That's one thing. 582 00:35:36,622 --> 00:35:40,222 Speaker 2: But for me, the biggest problem and where society and 583 00:35:40,262 --> 00:35:43,142 Speaker 2: the authorities perhaps need to do more and keep a 584 00:35:43,222 --> 00:35:46,342 Speaker 2: closer eye on places like this, is on the welfare 585 00:35:46,382 --> 00:35:49,822 Speaker 2: of the kids, because they don't have a choice if 586 00:35:49,862 --> 00:35:50,782 Speaker 2: they're born into that. 587 00:35:51,262 --> 00:35:55,022 Speaker 1: We've talked about numerous things that deserve criminal proceedings. They 588 00:35:55,062 --> 00:35:57,302 Speaker 1: need to be investigated, and we haven't even touched on 589 00:35:58,262 --> 00:36:01,982 Speaker 1: You have found examples of people within the church allegedly 590 00:36:02,062 --> 00:36:05,862 Speaker 1: bashing men in Geelong that they knew were gay because 591 00:36:06,142 --> 00:36:09,342 Speaker 1: they were gay. And then there's all of the financially 592 00:36:09,462 --> 00:36:14,182 Speaker 1: dubious stuff you've uncovered about the church's finances itself and 593 00:36:14,222 --> 00:36:16,462 Speaker 1: the fact that they say that their tax exempt, but 594 00:36:16,902 --> 00:36:19,662 Speaker 1: you kind of uncovered that that's a bit wishy washy. 595 00:36:19,942 --> 00:36:23,102 Speaker 2: Yeah, the finances are a real mystery because of one 596 00:36:23,182 --> 00:36:25,182 Speaker 2: era I think this shines a bit of a light 597 00:36:25,222 --> 00:36:30,182 Speaker 2: on in Australia is the tax exemptions given to what's 598 00:36:30,182 --> 00:36:34,262 Speaker 2: called a basic religious charity. So if you and I 599 00:36:34,582 --> 00:36:37,182 Speaker 2: we could set up our own religious group and we 600 00:36:37,222 --> 00:36:40,302 Speaker 2: could get tax exemption if we set up a charity 601 00:36:40,542 --> 00:36:43,022 Speaker 2: and run our books through that. All we need to 602 00:36:43,062 --> 00:36:45,142 Speaker 2: say is where a charity and what do we do. 603 00:36:45,382 --> 00:36:47,942 Speaker 2: We're advancing the cause of religion and that's all you 604 00:36:47,982 --> 00:36:50,622 Speaker 2: need to do to qualify. And what that means is 605 00:36:50,662 --> 00:36:53,462 Speaker 2: if you're registered as a basic religious charity, which is 606 00:36:53,502 --> 00:36:56,102 Speaker 2: the trust at the center of this church is one 607 00:36:56,142 --> 00:37:00,302 Speaker 2: of those, you don't have to submit financial reports, so 608 00:37:00,382 --> 00:37:04,342 Speaker 2: members have no clarity on where their money. And remember 609 00:37:04,622 --> 00:37:07,382 Speaker 2: everyone as part of this church is expected to give 610 00:37:07,422 --> 00:37:11,102 Speaker 2: a tithing and make offerings. And if you're got more money, 611 00:37:11,102 --> 00:37:13,902 Speaker 2: the more money you're expected to commit, you can't see 612 00:37:13,902 --> 00:37:18,582 Speaker 2: how that's being used. These basic religious charities aren't subject 613 00:37:18,622 --> 00:37:22,902 Speaker 2: to the same governance guidelines and rules that other non 614 00:37:22,942 --> 00:37:24,822 Speaker 2: religious charities are. 615 00:37:25,382 --> 00:37:28,822 Speaker 1: What's happened since you put your podcast and your investigation 616 00:37:28,982 --> 00:37:31,702 Speaker 1: out into the world. Do you think that authorities are 617 00:37:31,702 --> 00:37:33,622 Speaker 1: going to start looking more closely at this church? 618 00:37:34,222 --> 00:37:37,102 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. I think that plus the combination 619 00:37:37,302 --> 00:37:40,822 Speaker 2: of how a guy like Todd Hubers was molded or 620 00:37:40,862 --> 00:37:45,302 Speaker 2: created in this place, and how the church handled or 621 00:37:45,302 --> 00:37:48,742 Speaker 2: how the pastor at the time handled his admissions, and 622 00:37:48,782 --> 00:37:52,062 Speaker 2: then you know, the delay in notifying police would be 623 00:37:52,102 --> 00:37:55,902 Speaker 2: something of something of interest there and I'm certainly doing 624 00:37:55,942 --> 00:37:59,182 Speaker 2: my best to bring it to the attention of relevant authorities. 625 00:37:59,222 --> 00:38:01,502 Speaker 2: It's up to individuals, obviously if they want to report 626 00:38:01,542 --> 00:38:05,302 Speaker 2: things to police. I know a number of people from 627 00:38:05,422 --> 00:38:09,142 Speaker 2: Jeelong but from other places have made some historic abuse 628 00:38:09,182 --> 00:38:13,022 Speaker 2: allegations of or sexual that they say they experience when 629 00:38:13,062 --> 00:38:17,622 Speaker 2: they were children. There are some other prosecutions going on 630 00:38:18,062 --> 00:38:20,862 Speaker 2: in other assemblies connected to this church in Australia that 631 00:38:20,942 --> 00:38:22,982 Speaker 2: I'm not going to say where because I don't want 632 00:38:23,022 --> 00:38:27,382 Speaker 2: to impact any trials or things coming up there. There's 633 00:38:27,502 --> 00:38:30,942 Speaker 2: enough there, I think. In what's out there through the 634 00:38:30,982 --> 00:38:34,422 Speaker 2: podcast and these ex members' stories, plus what's happening just 635 00:38:34,502 --> 00:38:38,782 Speaker 2: in our court system and other things to say, places 636 00:38:38,822 --> 00:38:40,982 Speaker 2: like this need to be put under the microscopes are 637 00:38:41,022 --> 00:38:44,902 Speaker 2: more and maybe the relevant authorities that are responsible for 638 00:38:44,982 --> 00:38:48,102 Speaker 2: things like child protection or child safety actually go in 639 00:38:48,142 --> 00:38:49,942 Speaker 2: and have a look at what do they have in 640 00:38:49,982 --> 00:38:52,942 Speaker 2: place here? Do they have working with children's checks on 641 00:38:53,062 --> 00:38:58,982 Speaker 2: people who minding children or supervising activities at their camps 642 00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:03,902 Speaker 2: and things like that, and also question the leaders around 643 00:39:03,902 --> 00:39:07,862 Speaker 2: these policies that allow people other than parents of children 644 00:39:08,022 --> 00:39:12,502 Speaker 2: to dish out quite you know, physical and sometimes violent 645 00:39:12,542 --> 00:39:14,382 Speaker 2: punishments on other people's kids. 646 00:39:14,662 --> 00:39:18,342 Speaker 1: Do we know if anything's changed since pastorol died. 647 00:39:18,542 --> 00:39:21,542 Speaker 2: Well, there's a new leader of the church who was 648 00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:25,702 Speaker 2: a I guess an alcolyte of Personol. I don't think 649 00:39:25,702 --> 00:39:28,982 Speaker 2: anything's changed. I think, if anything, they've got more from 650 00:39:28,982 --> 00:39:33,342 Speaker 2: what I'm hearing, more repressive, more secretive, building up the 651 00:39:33,382 --> 00:39:36,262 Speaker 2: walls around them because they perceive what I've done as 652 00:39:36,302 --> 00:39:40,382 Speaker 2: an attack on them. It's not that people can have 653 00:39:40,462 --> 00:39:43,822 Speaker 2: the right to worship who and how they like, but 654 00:39:44,502 --> 00:39:46,382 Speaker 2: society has a job to do. The media has a 655 00:39:46,462 --> 00:39:48,942 Speaker 2: job to do. When that's at the expense of other 656 00:39:48,982 --> 00:39:51,982 Speaker 2: people's physical or emotional well being. 657 00:39:52,542 --> 00:39:54,382 Speaker 1: Is there life on the other side. A lot of 658 00:39:54,422 --> 00:39:58,182 Speaker 1: these now adults that were children that grew up in 659 00:39:58,222 --> 00:40:01,822 Speaker 1: this church, have they been able to create better lives 660 00:40:01,822 --> 00:40:04,942 Speaker 1: for themselves despital of the trauma and ripping apart of 661 00:40:04,942 --> 00:40:06,302 Speaker 1: their families that they've endured. 662 00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:09,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the silver lining. Like a lot of 663 00:40:09,222 --> 00:40:12,822 Speaker 2: what we've talked about is heavy, you know, and hard 664 00:40:12,862 --> 00:40:15,582 Speaker 2: to take content, the good thing is, and the podcast 665 00:40:15,622 --> 00:40:18,102 Speaker 2: does have an element of that, there is hope, and 666 00:40:18,222 --> 00:40:23,062 Speaker 2: people who have transitioned out of such places found the 667 00:40:23,062 --> 00:40:26,022 Speaker 2: outside world's pretty good, and their kids are happy, and 668 00:40:26,022 --> 00:40:30,462 Speaker 2: they're living really good lives as productive and involved members 669 00:40:30,462 --> 00:40:33,422 Speaker 2: of the wider community, and they're loving it. And the 670 00:40:33,462 --> 00:40:36,862 Speaker 2: good thing is for people on the inside of places 671 00:40:36,862 --> 00:40:39,982 Speaker 2: like that, is these guys are connected through social media 672 00:40:40,062 --> 00:40:43,382 Speaker 2: and different networks. Now that you go out and you 673 00:40:43,382 --> 00:40:45,782 Speaker 2: know you did this twenty years ago, you were literally 674 00:40:45,902 --> 00:40:49,222 Speaker 2: on your own. Now you've got a group of people 675 00:40:49,222 --> 00:40:52,502 Speaker 2: who understand exactly what you're going through, who can relate 676 00:40:52,902 --> 00:40:56,422 Speaker 2: to what you're feeling and the challenges you might be facing, 677 00:40:56,862 --> 00:40:59,462 Speaker 2: and they're there to help you and guide you through it. 678 00:40:59,662 --> 00:41:01,582 Speaker 2: You know, in Geelong, I know, you know there was 679 00:41:01,622 --> 00:41:04,222 Speaker 2: one just last Saturday where a group of the ex 680 00:41:04,422 --> 00:41:07,542 Speaker 2: members all caught up and had a beer and enjoyed 681 00:41:07,582 --> 00:41:10,342 Speaker 2: some time together. And you know they were never allowed 682 00:41:10,382 --> 00:41:14,182 Speaker 2: to drink inside the church or anything like that, but 683 00:41:14,382 --> 00:41:18,422 Speaker 2: just be normal and enjoy other people's company. 684 00:41:18,782 --> 00:41:20,582 Speaker 1: So even the fact we're talking about it, the fact 685 00:41:20,622 --> 00:41:23,262 Speaker 1: that you've done this investigation, the fact that there's Facebook groups, 686 00:41:23,422 --> 00:41:27,182 Speaker 1: you know for the people still inside, there are options. 687 00:41:26,702 --> 00:41:29,822 Speaker 2: For them, totally. Yeah, I guess you've got living proof 688 00:41:29,822 --> 00:41:33,102 Speaker 2: when you see how happy they are. There must be 689 00:41:33,142 --> 00:41:35,222 Speaker 2: something right about it, something good about it. 690 00:41:35,542 --> 00:41:37,342 Speaker 1: Richard, Am I right in saying that this isn't over 691 00:41:37,382 --> 00:41:38,262 Speaker 1: for you? 692 00:41:38,302 --> 00:41:40,382 Speaker 2: No, there's a lot more work to do. I mean 693 00:41:40,622 --> 00:41:44,702 Speaker 2: since releasing the podcast nearly a month ago, Yeah, I've 694 00:41:44,742 --> 00:41:48,462 Speaker 2: had at least another forty five people that I didn't 695 00:41:48,502 --> 00:41:52,382 Speaker 2: know when I released it contact me with all sorts 696 00:41:52,422 --> 00:41:56,582 Speaker 2: of information. And this is from around Australia and overseas, 697 00:41:56,822 --> 00:41:59,982 Speaker 2: and also in some other churches that are not part 698 00:42:00,022 --> 00:42:04,462 Speaker 2: of this group but operate in a very similar fashion. Yeah. 699 00:42:04,502 --> 00:42:07,342 Speaker 2: I don't know exactly where it's all going to go, 700 00:42:07,382 --> 00:42:12,342 Speaker 2: but I'm certainly my lines of inquiry many I'd say, 701 00:42:12,462 --> 00:42:15,862 Speaker 2: you know, I'm hoping next year to expand upon this 702 00:42:16,462 --> 00:42:22,382 Speaker 2: story and really really drill into a part of Australian 703 00:42:22,462 --> 00:42:25,262 Speaker 2: life that most of us don't know about, but that 704 00:42:25,422 --> 00:42:28,622 Speaker 2: is happening every day, just quietly out there in the 705 00:42:28,662 --> 00:42:31,862 Speaker 2: suburbs and in our regional towns, and that there are 706 00:42:31,862 --> 00:42:36,302 Speaker 2: people living in a way that is not healthy for 707 00:42:37,022 --> 00:42:40,782 Speaker 2: a large proportion of members, but particularly for young people 708 00:42:41,022 --> 00:42:42,822 Speaker 2: in there. That the things are being taught and the 709 00:42:42,862 --> 00:42:46,222 Speaker 2: things are being told about the world aren't true bullshit. 710 00:42:47,022 --> 00:42:49,582 Speaker 2: It sets them on a path for a life that 711 00:42:49,942 --> 00:42:51,502 Speaker 2: no one would really want. I think. 712 00:42:54,302 --> 00:42:56,582 Speaker 1: Thanks to Richard for helping us to tell this story. 713 00:42:56,902 --> 00:42:59,862 Speaker 1: We'll leave a link to Richard's podcast Secrets We Keep 714 00:42:59,982 --> 00:43:03,662 Speaker 1: Pray Harder in the show notes. True Grime Conversations is 715 00:43:03,702 --> 00:43:06,022 Speaker 1: a Mum of Meer podcast hosted and produced by me 716 00:43:06,142 --> 00:43:09,022 Speaker 1: Jimma Bath and Tarlie Blackman. Thanks so much for listening. 717 00:43:09,102 --> 00:43:11,982 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week another true Crime Conversation.