WEBVTT - Inside The Hidden Network Of Men Drugging And Raping Their Wives 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.920 It's a regular Sunday in twenty eighteen in Devon, England, 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.720 and the Watts family have just returned home from church. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.160 Zoe's four children have disbursed to various corners of the house, 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.920 and she's settling in for a day at home when 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:22.080 her husband of sixteen years makes a confession. He's been 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:26.560 crushing their son's sleeping medicine into her nightly tea and 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.600 raping her once she passes out. He reels off a 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.519 shopping list of abuses he has subjected her sleeping body to. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.519 Zoe is in shock, her entire life, her marriage, it 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.480 all shatters in a single moment. He's been doing it 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.960 for years, he says. Zoe starts to panic. The reality 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.720 of what her husband, the man she has trusted, loved, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.480 parented alongside, confided in. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:58.440 What he is telling. 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:06.720 Her is too painful to comprehend. I'm Jemma Bath and 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.520 you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.000 world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.880 know the most about them. In twenty twenty four, the 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.039 world learnt the name Gizelle Pelico. Between twenty eleven and 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.240 twenty twenty, she was drugged and raped by her husband, Dominic, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.280 and fifty other men in the couple's home while she 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.880 was unconscious. Seventy two year old Gizelle waived her right 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.520 to anonymity in his trial, and we followed along as 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.720 the proceedings detailed at least two hundred horrific rapes, all 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.920 of them filmed. Dominic advertised his wife on a sex 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:51.840 chat website, giving rapists instructions on what to where, where 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:56.520 to park, how to abuse his wife, no condoms required, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:02.840 He'd tell them. These men were firefighters, truck drivers, nurses, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.760 their next door neighbor, men from in and around Jezelle's 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.919 small village in France. The case shocked and horrified the world, 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.520 but Jazelle's bravery in owning her story and her refusal 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:22.280 to carry shame saw her become an international feminist icon, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.920 a symbol of survivor resistance. But this case, this abuse, 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:34.200 it's not unique. In March twenty twenty six, CNN released 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:39.840 a shocking investigation exposing a global rape academy. Thousands of 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.600 men across the world in group chats, teaching each other 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.440 and swapping tips on how to drug and rape their wives. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.679 On one website. They found more than twenty thousand videos 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:56.960 of so called sleep content. They had hundreds of thousands 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:02.040 of views. Saskia van Dorn is an award winning investigative 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:07.080 journalist and CNN's Paris bureau chief. During this investigation, she 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.840 talked to several victim survivors and infiltrated one of the 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:21.080 group chats sharing rape sleep content. Saskia joins US now. Saskia, 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.600 thank you for joining us on True Crime conversations. Firstly, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:30.280 you covered Giselle Pelico's case intimately in twenty twenty four, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.959 you went to her husband's trial. You've spoken to her since. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.720 What impact did telling that story and hearing those details 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.520 in court have on you and your next steps journalistically? 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.160 I think if there's one word that stays with me, 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:54.080 it's scale, because I remember when I was sitting in 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:59.839 the courthouse and Giselle Pattico's lawyer began describing the website 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.880 that Dominic Pelico had used to recruit over seventy men 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.600 to rape his wife, and he described it as the 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.880 weapon of the crime. And that's how I think you 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.800 can understand how we get to a scale of seventy 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.479 men if it was not for this website, Coco Dominic 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:26.440 Pelico would never have been able to find like minded men, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.600 men who shared the same fantasies that he had. And 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:36.600 I think that that's what began, what made us want 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:41.440 to look into these sorts of websites and of course 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.520 porn sites where you are now consuming pawn on a 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.320 scale that is massive. So I think those were kind 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:57.200 of the link between these stories, which is the scale 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.520 of the men and then the scale of the content 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.919 that we discovered on this website that we went undercover on. 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.239 How did you discover that there was more content beyond 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.839 Dominique Pellico's kind of chattering website he was using. Was 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.240 it hard to find these other platforms, this other website. 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:19.080 It wasn't hard at all. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:24.640 There were websites that were advertising themselves as Coco's replacement. 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.799 So men, you'd find men discussing this on Reddit chats, 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.560 online forums where they would say, oh, Coco has been 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.240 taken down, but you might want to head here, here 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.479 and here to find the same kind of content, to 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.320 find the same like minded people. And that's how we 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.680 began going down this rabbit hole. And then Motherless, which 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.719 is the website that we ended up going under cover on. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.120 We had also heard from these German journalists who had 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.559 worked extensively on this site, and they had already brought 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.159 to light a lot of what we will you know, 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.760 talk about later on, I imagine sleep content. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.719 Can you tell me about what motherless looks like on 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.320 the face? Like when you go onto this website, because 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.640 it's not something on the dark Web, it's available just 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:15.159 on a normal browser. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.760 It's readily available, it's not on the dark Web. You 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.520 can access it super easily. And as soon as you 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.960 are on the landing page, you're going to be faced 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:31.360 with tons of videos showing, you know, different types of porn. 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.120 So you're going to have porn. 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:38.679 That is categorized as incest, porn that's categorized as teen 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:45.160 and then you will have search terms for example, Z 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.719 passed out, I check, And that's how we were able 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.800 to then find discover all of this sleep content and 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.840 what is sleep content? Those are videos where you're going 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:02.120 to see women unconscious, women who are then going to 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:06.440 be abused sexually. I mentioned the search term I check, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.560 what's that? Well that will you will see a man 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.560 in the video lifting up the eyelids of the woman 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.360 to show that she's completely sedated, that she's completely unconscious. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.960 They'll lift up her arm to show that her body's lifeless. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.080 And that's how. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.640 We were able to see these tens of thousands of 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:31.040 videos of you know, women unconscious and and having men 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.840 perform sex acts on them. Now I should add that 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:40.640 since our investigation aired, the Motherless was taken offline for 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.400 a week because their servers are in the Netherlands, and 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.560 the Dutch opened an investigation into Motherless and I've been 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.760 on it since and Motherless has cleaned up some of 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:54.480 this content. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.760 They've banned some of those search terms. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:02.640 But if you were to search for, you know, women 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.280 asleep in French or in Spanish, you're still going to 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:06.360 come across that content. 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.640 So it hasn't been taken off completely. 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.600 And it sounds like these men just find new ways 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.840 of kind of serving the content once they're figured out. 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.640 Because that's the thing about Motherless is not only is 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.480 it a website at porn site that has on average 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.480 eighty million visits a month with its core audience in 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.840 the US, but it also acts as a bit of 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.320 a kind of social media. So you're going to have 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.160 men who'll have profiles it'll show how long they've been 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.559 on Motherless five years, ten years, fifteen years. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:37.880 You'll get awarded. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.160 Medals if you've been on there for extended periods of time. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.679 And then it will show the videos that you have 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.439 listed on your profile. And of course the more views 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.800 your videos have that you've uploaded, the more prestige you 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:56.400 have on this website. So it's also a kind of brotherhood. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.520 You know, men are going to find each other there, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.640 they're going to befriend each other, befriend another user, and 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.280 then what we discovered was that they would have links 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:14.480 to Telegram groups or Telegram user names, and that's how 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.920 I came across one man who said he was selling 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.600 liquid sedative around the world and that for one hundred 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.559 and fifty dollars, he would send a bottle of liquid sedative. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.960 It would arrive the next day with detailed instructions as 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.760 to how it would affect the woman that you were drugging. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.280 And then there was another user who had a link 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.320 to a Telegram group where there were one thousand men 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.800 in that group, and that was the one that we infiltrated. 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.720 We created a mel persona and began exchanging with men 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.839 in that group, and it was it was in real time, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.760 so you had men from across the world sharing tips. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.800 On how to drug and rape their partners. 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.400 And I'm assuming the group you were in was one 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:07.520 of many. You just happen to be in this one 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.000 group with a thousand men, but we don't know how 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:11.320 many more groups there are. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.960 Just to give you an example, German, the German journalists, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.440 so speaking about earlier, they infiltrated a group with seventy 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.400 thousand no so you get this idea this is far 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.520 more widespread, and that in fact Motherless was acting as 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:31.920 a gateway, so men would find themselves maybe consuming at 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:36.280 the beginning regular porn, then because of algorithms that favor 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:41.320 extreme content, finding themselves on this dark corner of this site. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.440 Because I should mention that, yes, there are sixty to 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.600 eighty million visits on this site per month, but that's 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.880 not to say they're all they're looking at sleep content. 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.880 A lot of these users would just be looking at porn. 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.640 But you can see how some would arrive on the page. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.440 Start off by looking at regular porn, find themselves in 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:09.400 this dark corner of the website looking at sleep pornography, 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.640 and then find the link to a telegram group, and 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.320 that's when they're exchanging in real time with men around 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:17.080 the world. 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.760 Sitting in that group, seeing these conversations. I know you 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.920 kind of this was an investigation you did over several months. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.800 What was it like being immersed in their world, What 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.040 were their conversations like, their mindset like? What did you 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.160 learn about them? 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.120 I think that it was more than just creating content. 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.800 It was also about camaraderie, So this feeling that they 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.520 were getting a thrill in the act itself, so by 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.719 drugging and raping their partners, but also the dynamics surrounding it, 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.840 So bringing the video back to this group, who would 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:56.160 then go on to praise the acts of you know, 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:01.400 the individual involved. And it also felt like there were 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:07.720 there was this kind of you know, teacher student dynamic 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.520 with some of the relationships. So you would there'd be 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.079 a user who had been on Motherless for years and 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.760 who would be boasting about drugging and raping their partner 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.360 for a long time, and they would be sharing tips 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.120 with the younger men who perhaps had never tried it, 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.839 and they're therefore normalizing the entire. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:28.679 Idea of rape. 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.640 And you could see that these younger guys who might 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.120 never have thought about doing this, began to feel like, oh, well, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.760 these all these guys are doing it. They've been drugging 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.760 and raping their partners for years and getting away with it, 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:43.800 so maybe. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:44.439 It's not that bad. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.360 And you also got the sense that it was just 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.440 the drugs were just a facilitator, and the ease with 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.280 which they were able to do this to their wives, 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.120 to their girlfriends, and also the tutorials that they were 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.760 sharing with another how much does she weigh? Does she 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.679 have a fast metabolism? Make sure you don't overdose? And 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.280 that might be One of the most shocking things that 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.040 we discovered was the way that women were treated as 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.600 guinea pigs. And these are supposedly, in some cases, the 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.680 mother of their children, women that they'd been with for ten, fifteen, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:23.679 twenty years. 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:25.160 And so I think. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:30.960 What's so pernicious about this kind of content, these kinds 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.640 of groups is how the men are desensitized to it. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.160 And the truth is Gemma we as the journalists who 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.839 were in these groups, were desensitized to it as well. 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.319 After a while, you know, or there's another video of 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.400 one being raped, you just don't see it the same 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:54.200 way because you're consuming vast amounts of this extreme content. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.800 I can see why you kind of labeled this as 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.679 a rape academy, because that's it's exactly what it what 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.880 it is. It's kind of men teaching men. It's a 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.400 school for how to rapen drug your wives. 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:13.760 And that term was used by a French MP who 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:19.080 herself had been drugged by a senator, and when we 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.800 came to her with her with our findings, she said, yeah, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.240 this seems like a school. This seems like an academy. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.920 And it is twenty four hours a day. It was 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.760 in the morning, in the afternoon, and of course very 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.920 much at night, and you. 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.680 Felt that it was. You know, what we discovered was 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.200 that it was across the world. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:46.920 There were men from France, the US, Canada, all over 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.080 Europe and all ages. Some of them would talk about 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.160 their professions, all different. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.120 Types of careers. It really was. 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.800 There wasn't a type, which was also I think what 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.640 was quite unnerving is that it could be anyone, could 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.560 be any man out there. There really wasn't a profile 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:08.560 that they were fitting well. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.720 I think that was one of the most shocking things 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.440 that came out of Dominic Pelico's trial, and the fifty 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:19.040 other men. They were firefighters, nurses, the next door neighbor, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.280 you know, a baker, like it was. You couldn't pick 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:23.960 who it was going to be. And it was quite 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.000 shocking that they were these normal kind of men. So 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.320 you were finding the same thing that they were everyone. 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.880 They were mailmen, they were police officers, they were all 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.880 sorts of people, all sorts of people from all walks 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:35.560 of life. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:41.520 Some had high power jobs, others were unemployed. And also, 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.160 as I said, some of them were very experienced. Others 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:52.480 you felt they just stumbled across these groups. And this 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:58.640 goes to show why these unmoderated platforms can be so 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:04.240 dangerous because you may be able to, you know, remove 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.880 some of that problematic content, some of the illegal content 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.960 once it's been flagged to you, but you can't control 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.280 if there's a link that's living on a user's profile 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.320 that everybody's then congregating on. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:18.200 That's it. 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.200 It's too late that that you know, the horse has 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.720 left and they're all now in another group, and you 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.200 may be able to take off that user from your website, 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.200 but if they know, motherless to be a space where. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:31.800 You can come and. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.440 Find men who feel the same way as you who 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:41.680 are into the same kind of you know, criminal illegal content, 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.520 then you are going to keep coming back to it. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.760 And we know with Motherless that several years ago, when 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.920 the German journalists first did this investigation, they were made 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:59.040 aware that there was this huge community on their site 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:04.200 that into sleep porn. And yes they went and banned 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.600 the words back then the search terms. 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:08.280 But look where we are today. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.000 Lots, you know, lots of videos reappeared, these groups found 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.960 each other again, so you know, the question needs to 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.680 be asked, is enough being done to deter these men 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.520 from creating these groups and from uploading this content. 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:29.159 Up next, Saskia tells me about the dms she exchanged 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.639 with one man in particular while working undercover on the site. 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.960 Tell me about the chats you started having on the side, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.160 the dms from one particular man and how that kind 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:39.760 of evolved. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:46.680 Yeah, And the truth is because we were working under 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.000 very you know, strict guidelines. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:51.760 We were there. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.879 Undercovera but we were there not never to encourage anybody else. 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:57.600 We were there as observers. 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:01.520 We remained journalists by just us questions in these groups, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.240 which meant that a lot of the conversations went cold 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.719 because in these groups, pictures, videos of your wife, of 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.040 your girlfriend, that's currency. And very quickly the men would 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.399 grow suspicious of us because. 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:17.600 We weren't sharing in a thing. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.480 We weren't, you know, relaying any stories when the experience 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.960 that we'd had, we were just sitting there and listening. 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.560 But there was one man, a Polish user, and he 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:35.200 seemed content just to share content with me over DM 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.639 of his wife, who he said he had drugged and raped. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.480 And I got the feeling with Puore that's the name 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.520 we're giving him, it's not his real name, that he 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.520 was just wanting to speak to someone else about what 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.560 he had been doing to his wife, what he wanted 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.560 to do to his wife, and didn't need anything in return. 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.800 So I would, you know, just asking questions about why 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:05.720 he was doing this. 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:10.439 His answer was because he could, because this was something 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.000 he found arousing when she was in this state that 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.199 he had complete and utter control over her. And a 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.359 crucial part of the investigation for US was proving that 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.600 these men were real, that they weren't just user names, 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.040 that they weren't just pseudonyms. And that's something we were 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.840 able to do with because even though he wouldn't meet 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.560 with our undercover persona, which is how we first began 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.040 to try and. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:38.119 See him in real life. 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.199 He lets slip that he was going to be at 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:48.119 a party in Poland, and we traveled there, knew the 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.520 restaurant where he was going to be with his wife, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:56.960 and I think that was one of the most stressful 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:01.320 parts of the investigation because we I had many discussions 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:08.280 before that moment with all of our editorial team to discuss, 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:12.000 you know, do we confront plots, do we speak to 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.600 his wife, because up until then we hadn't been able 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.440 to confirm his identity, so we didn't know is this 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.160 guy who he says he is? 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.280 And when we were in the restaurant and he was 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.560 just a few meters. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:32.280 Away, knowing what he had done to his wife, knowing 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:38.919 that all of this was presumably true, it was really 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:43.560 hard as a woman not to go to her and 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.240 not to go to him. But we didn't know how 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.919 he was going to react. We didn't know what he 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.200 might do to her, and so with her safety in mind, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.640 we decided to pass our findings on to the police, 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.399 to the Polish police, and they acted incredibly quickly. They 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.360 arrested him, and he admitted to the charges that were 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.840 brought against him, and he should be sentenced in a 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:06.640 few months time. 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.199 When you were observing him and his wife, were they 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:13.960 normal Did they just look like a normal couple. 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:19.360 It's hard not to project things onto them. But it 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:23.280 felt to me that she looked incredibly vacant, that it 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.200 was almost as if her body knew but her mind 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:27.000 obviously didn't. 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.199 And and there was this strange. 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.119 Dynamic on the dance floor where you know, she would 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.399 be dancing with friends and then he would come to 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.480 her on the dance floor, she would go back to 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.040 her table, and it felt like she was fleeing him. 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:49.520 So for us, you know, in our role as observers, 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.240 I felt that there was a kind of coldness between them. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.320 But it's hard to tell if that was, you know, 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:58.760 something that was that was real. Maybe they just had 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:05.320 an argument, who knows, But it was just for us 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.440 so important to be able to show these guys are real. 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.080 Here's one who we spoke to during the course of 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.000 our investigation, and you know, now he's admitted to it. 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.280 How many more men are there out there like him, 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.119 where women are completely oblivious that they're being drugged and 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:24.160 raped by their partners. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.280 Like you were saying before, with like the prevalence of this, 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:30.479 it's kind of hard to go, Like where do you go? 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.760 Is it the tech companies? Is it law enforcement? Is 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:37.960 it moderation systems? Like how do we kind of clamp 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.119 down on this if we are just seeing them kind 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:41.480 of popping back up all the time. 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:45.560 That's what makes it incredibly hard when it comes to 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:47.760 tackling this problem. 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:49.720 We were speaking about Coco earlier. 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.399 It was brought down, and in the past few weeks 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:58.720 a website that is called Coco Land has now re emerged. 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:03.480 It has exactly the same interface that Coco had. It's 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:08.720 advertising itself essentially as the same Coco, and Coco was 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.560 cited in twenty two thousand criminal cases. 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:15.960 There were murders that were being organized on Coco, there. 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.280 Was child sex abuse imagery that was being shared there, 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:24.560 and yet a website has now reappeared. So there is 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:28.080 this issue of you bring one down, what is stopping 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:34.639 creators owners from bringing another one, you know, into existence? 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:42.399 And so clearly I think moderators and owners maybe you 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.280 don't face enough scruciny or. 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.480 You know, there aren't enough. 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:54.520 Deterrence for them to create these new websites. But I 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.239 also think it's worth mentioning that we're talking about a 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:02.439 ninety billion dollar industry. That is how much, you know, 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.600 the global porn industry is worth. 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:11.480 So there's a lot at stake here. And we touched 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:15.000 upon the algorithms earlier, but on a lot of the 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.560 we mentioned Motherless, there are other websites where there it's 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.240 this kind of sleep porn. We've come across it again. 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:27.160 They're videos that will have on them, you know, raped 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:32.640 women who are asleep. That's what they're selling. For eight euros. 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.520 You can buy a bundle of that and you don't 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:39.280 need an email address to access these these sites. You 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:42.919 just land on them and that's what's being sold. And 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:50.360 that's because, as you know, men are consuming this content 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:54.440 and they get desensitized to it, they tend to then 0:24:54.640 --> 0:25:00.000 click on more and more extreme content. And that's where 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.320 where there is an Experts will tell you this a 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:08.560 failure in moderating this kind of content, because as soon 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:11.880 as you've got the word rape there, you know the 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.400 site should be geo blocked, brought down. You know, That's 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:18.480 what a lot of the experts and ad advocates who've 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:22.920 been trying to combat this problem, have been fighting for 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.479 and they say that, you know, it's just what's happening 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.480 in the online world. The policing of the online world 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:34.520