WEBVTT - "Body Count", "Purity" & The Viral Australian Men Debate 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.622 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:22.662 --> 0:00:25.542 MoMA Mia. Out loud what we've been are actually talking about? 0:00:25.582 --> 0:00:28.262 On Monday, the eleventh of August. I'm Holly Wayne right, 0:00:28.302 --> 0:00:29.942 and it just occurred to me I might be shouting. 0:00:30.422 --> 0:00:33.261 Had some feedback this week that sometimes when I talk, 0:00:33.302 --> 0:00:34.501 I wake a baby. 0:00:34.342 --> 0:00:36.342 And that I can be too quiet. So I'm working 0:00:36.422 --> 0:00:38.942 on my loudness on the podcast. 0:00:38.982 --> 0:00:40.942 But when I just jumped in and went hello, oh, 0:00:41.022 --> 0:00:43.582 I suddenly thought shit, I've just wokened the nation's babies. 0:00:43.582 --> 0:00:44.542 I apologize. 0:00:45.182 --> 0:00:46.262 I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:46.542 --> 0:00:48.902 I'm Amelia Lester and here's. 0:00:48.662 --> 0:00:52.622 What made our agenda for today. Does every group chat 0:00:52.662 --> 0:00:55.302 in your life spawn two more group chats? 0:00:55.622 --> 0:01:01.622 Yes, LUs as some issues just not up for debate. 0:01:01.862 --> 0:01:05.062 As a former high school debater that will suppose no one, 0:01:05.222 --> 0:01:06.422 this is personal for. 0:01:06.422 --> 0:01:09.542 Me and the surprising reason why divorce rates in Australa 0:01:09.941 --> 0:01:11.541 are at a fifty year low. 0:01:11.822 --> 0:01:13.502 But first, Jesse Stevens. 0:01:13.542 --> 0:01:16.422 In case you missed it, Instagram just launched a new 0:01:16.502 --> 0:01:20.102 feature that shows all your followers where you are right now? Hey, 0:01:20.902 --> 0:01:23.102 So this rolled out in the US last week, with 0:01:23.182 --> 0:01:26.101 lots of users claiming that they were shocked to find 0:01:26.142 --> 0:01:30.422 their whereabouts was being shared to their followers without their knowledge. 0:01:30.502 --> 0:01:33.662 The head of Instagram, his name is Adam Mussori, released 0:01:33.662 --> 0:01:37.902 a statement in response, assuring users that to start, location 0:01:38.022 --> 0:01:40.342 sharing will be off, but you can opt in so 0:01:40.382 --> 0:01:43.422 you can better connect with your friends on Instagram. It 0:01:43.502 --> 0:01:46.622 is likely that this feature will come to Australia very soon, 0:01:46.822 --> 0:01:51.222 which comes with a whole host of concerns, including things 0:01:51.302 --> 0:01:55.262 like tech based coercive control. One in five young adults, 0:01:55.302 --> 0:01:59.102 according to recent research, believe it is reasonable to track 0:01:59.382 --> 0:02:01.982 a partner's location. So that's just become the default. So 0:02:01.982 --> 0:02:04.222 if it's on an app that everyone's watching where they are, 0:02:04.262 --> 0:02:08.901 then it becomes sort of conspicuous if you turn it off. Holly, 0:02:09.302 --> 0:02:12.462 Why why would anyone want their followers to know where 0:02:12.501 --> 0:02:13.221 they are right now? 0:02:13.262 --> 0:02:20.142 I have no idea, but it's really interesting because I 0:02:20.181 --> 0:02:21.862 saw this and quite a few people shared it with 0:02:21.862 --> 0:02:23.942 me on the weekend. Because I'm on the record several 0:02:23.982 --> 0:02:27.782 times as saying I hate location sharing. I don't track 0:02:27.862 --> 0:02:28.862 anyone in my house. 0:02:29.062 --> 0:02:31.622 You won't let me attract you. She tries, she tries 0:02:31.662 --> 0:02:35.582 to put like little tags around Inta and you're like, nah, 0:02:35.662 --> 0:02:36.502 she's dropping. 0:02:36.302 --> 0:02:41.182 Air tags into her pockets. Yes, I am allergic to it. 0:02:41.342 --> 0:02:43.702 I don't really know why I need to prosecute this 0:02:43.742 --> 0:02:46.702 at some point, but generally speaking, I just think privacy 0:02:46.742 --> 0:02:49.822 and none of your business, not even big safety concerns, 0:02:49.862 --> 0:02:51.582 just like you don't need to know where I am 0:02:51.582 --> 0:02:53.181 and what I'm doing. Nobody needs to know that. 0:02:53.262 --> 0:02:55.381 I think secrets are a basic human right. I don't 0:02:55.382 --> 0:02:56.982 even have them. I just think I have the right 0:02:57.022 --> 0:02:57.941 to have them exactly. 0:02:58.022 --> 0:03:00.302 And it's interesting because, I mean, you just sort of 0:03:00.342 --> 0:03:02.982 mentioned this about how it's become table stakes and relationships. 0:03:03.022 --> 0:03:05.342 But the New York Times run a story recently that like, 0:03:05.462 --> 0:03:09.982 are you at location sharing level? It's like going Instagram official, 0:03:10.662 --> 0:03:14.422 you know, changing your status in your whatever update and 0:03:15.062 --> 0:03:19.142 location sharing. It's supposed to be the ultimate intimacy. And 0:03:19.262 --> 0:03:21.862 I cannot understand it. But I think we know why 0:03:21.902 --> 0:03:23.782 the tech platform would do this. 0:03:23.902 --> 0:03:25.742 Why why would Instagram want to do this? 0:03:25.942 --> 0:03:30.221 So A, they believe their audience want it, but more pertinently, 0:03:30.862 --> 0:03:33.342 the more information they have about us, the more things 0:03:33.342 --> 0:03:35.342 they can sell to us. We all know that right 0:03:35.462 --> 0:03:38.822 data mining is the number one thing that tech companies 0:03:38.902 --> 0:03:40.422 like to do, and if they know where you are, 0:03:40.502 --> 0:03:42.982 they can target you better with ads of all kinds. 0:03:43.182 --> 0:03:46.502 Okay, because this came at an interesting time, which is 0:03:46.622 --> 0:03:48.462 I think just in the last week, there was this 0:03:48.742 --> 0:03:51.382 massive lawsuit that wrapped up in California. Have you sayen this, 0:03:51.542 --> 0:03:55.902 no tell me? Meta a legally collected data from another 0:03:56.062 --> 0:03:59.022 app so that it could specifically target people. That other 0:03:59.102 --> 0:04:01.502 app was Flow, which I have on my phone, the 0:04:01.662 --> 0:04:04.462 Period Appeah, the period app. So it is a health app. 0:04:04.542 --> 0:04:08.022 It is I think the most downloaded women's health app. 0:04:08.502 --> 0:04:11.142 Now why would they information on where I am in 0:04:11.142 --> 0:04:15.022 my cycle? Why would they want that? Well, my mood changes, 0:04:15.502 --> 0:04:18.462 there are concerns about weight, or maybe I have a breakout. 0:04:18.462 --> 0:04:21.421 Do you want to sell me a special cream? Maybe 0:04:21.462 --> 0:04:23.861 you notice that at my lucial phase I have less 0:04:23.861 --> 0:04:27.062 impulse control, So we can start kind of putting those 0:04:27.101 --> 0:04:30.621 ads out. It's been a massive, massive deal and they've 0:04:30.662 --> 0:04:33.142 been punished for it, and a lot of Flow users 0:04:33.181 --> 0:04:35.901 have gone hang on this, you know, starts a lot 0:04:35.941 --> 0:04:38.621 of privacy concerns. But this is why people are very 0:04:38.941 --> 0:04:40.621 suspicious of Meta. 0:04:40.222 --> 0:04:43.301 It's interesting because Instagram called this and I love this phrase, 0:04:43.662 --> 0:04:47.582 a new lightweight way to connect, which sounds so nice. 0:04:47.662 --> 0:04:49.981 But you know who doesn't want to connect and share 0:04:50.022 --> 0:04:55.021 his location? Mark Zuckerberg. There was a fascinating expose this 0:04:55.142 --> 0:04:59.022 weekend in The New York Times about how he's basically 0:04:59.061 --> 0:05:03.022 brought up an entire suburb in northern California outside San 0:05:03.022 --> 0:05:06.541 Francisco because he doesn't want anyone near him, so he 0:05:06.582 --> 0:05:09.421 lives in one large house. He has also bought eleven 0:05:09.621 --> 0:05:13.101 houses around his house for a cost of they estimate 0:05:13.101 --> 0:05:15.741 about one hundred and fifty million AUSI dollars. Now he 0:05:15.902 --> 0:05:18.541 is worth two hundred and seventy billions, so don't worry 0:05:18.582 --> 0:05:21.501 too much about that. But he's even opened a private 0:05:21.621 --> 0:05:24.301 school in one of these eleven houses, which goes against 0:05:24.342 --> 0:05:27.701 all the zoning regulations for his two daughters and ten 0:05:27.741 --> 0:05:31.221 other children. And neighbors say they can no longer walk 0:05:31.262 --> 0:05:34.101 down the street, they can't use the footpath outside his 0:05:34.181 --> 0:05:36.981 house without being asked to move along by men in 0:05:37.061 --> 0:05:42.342 large SUVs privacy, and they're always having parties and blocking driveways, 0:05:42.462 --> 0:05:44.902 and they've even had the city like block off streets 0:05:44.941 --> 0:05:47.141 successfully so that no one can get near the parties, 0:05:47.222 --> 0:05:49.421 so someone's not interconnecting. 0:05:49.741 --> 0:05:52.421 Ah, that's not about connecting. 0:05:52.582 --> 0:05:54.421 You know what though, as you know, I have this 0:05:54.582 --> 0:05:58.421 allergic reaction to location sharing. But certainly my daughter and 0:05:58.501 --> 0:06:01.061 her friends don't even blink about it. They don't even 0:06:01.101 --> 0:06:04.101 think about it. They think it's so normal because they 0:06:04.142 --> 0:06:06.701 can all look at where each other are at all times. 0:06:06.821 --> 0:06:09.061 And the only reason that they can see for turning 0:06:09.101 --> 0:06:12.222 off your life sharing on snap maps or whatever is 0:06:12.222 --> 0:06:15.502 that you would be literally doing something that you shouldn't 0:06:15.501 --> 0:06:18.101 be doing, or something that you know your friends would 0:06:18.101 --> 0:06:18.621 get mad. 0:06:18.501 --> 0:06:19.061 With you about. 0:06:19.142 --> 0:06:24.181 So the set expectation is, unless you are behaving badly, 0:06:24.941 --> 0:06:27.261 you should have no reason for privacy. And I wonder 0:06:27.301 --> 0:06:29.941 if you know the people who like us, well not 0:06:29.941 --> 0:06:32.501 necessarily us, but me who are arking up about this 0:06:33.342 --> 0:06:36.262 are just outsiders in that generation where it just is 0:06:36.301 --> 0:06:37.381 the most normal. 0:06:37.101 --> 0:06:39.462 Thing in the world, because this is snap maps, right 0:06:39.541 --> 0:06:41.662 like this, this is what we do, just like TikTok 0:06:41.782 --> 0:06:43.981 kind of makes video and then they instagram goes really 0:06:43.981 --> 0:06:46.182 hard on reels like this is the kind of thing 0:06:46.222 --> 0:06:48.422 you do. But you hear stories of people going, oh, 0:06:48.501 --> 0:06:51.342 I discovered that my friend is back with her ex 0:06:51.421 --> 0:06:55.461 boyfriend because on snap maps I could see where she was. 0:06:55.582 --> 0:06:58.181 You just wait, Matilda, you wait until you have secrets 0:06:58.222 --> 0:06:58.782 like the rest of us. 0:06:58.821 --> 0:07:01.101 It's true, and of course we should point out there 0:07:01.101 --> 0:07:04.701 are genuine safety concerns with this kind of location sharing 0:07:04.782 --> 0:07:09.142 being used in bad relationships, bad faith actors, and stalking. 0:07:09.222 --> 0:07:12.662 Like it's really really interesting. I'm not going to try 0:07:12.662 --> 0:07:14.662 and break it down on an intellectual level. I just 0:07:14.662 --> 0:07:17.302 find a check that's been with way too many guys. 0:07:17.462 --> 0:07:18.662 I find that unattractive. 0:07:18.902 --> 0:07:24.382 That important contribution to knowledge, to the exploration of the 0:07:24.462 --> 0:07:27.942 human condition came from Dean Wells, an expert on masculinity. 0:07:28.022 --> 0:07:30.862 No just kidding. Dean Wells was on season five IF 0:07:30.862 --> 0:07:34.302 Married at First Sight, but he did appear last week 0:07:34.542 --> 0:07:37.422 on an episode of SBS's The Feed. The Feed is 0:07:37.462 --> 0:07:40.662 a current of THEIRS show, and this episode made people 0:07:40.862 --> 0:07:45.302 very upset. It was called Men Debate Masculinity, and it 0:07:45.342 --> 0:07:47.662 was a forty three minute debate that dropped on YouTube 0:07:47.662 --> 0:07:53.062 on Friday. SBS introduced the segment, perhaps justified what was 0:07:53.182 --> 0:07:57.062 to come by saying, these are claims and opinions that 0:07:57.102 --> 0:07:59.581 are being debated online. What I love about that is 0:07:59.782 --> 0:08:03.862 literally everything can be put under the umbrella of claims 0:08:03.902 --> 0:08:06.821 and opinions that are being debated online, and we heard 0:08:06.982 --> 0:08:09.862 the opinions certainly run the gamut from acceptable to not 0:08:09.902 --> 0:08:12.862 so acceptable. Frankly, the first contention put to the group 0:08:12.941 --> 0:08:15.661 of six panelists and which Dean was trying to answer, 0:08:15.702 --> 0:08:18.502 and that clip you just heard, wasn't actually about women. 0:08:18.662 --> 0:08:20.821 Despite the fact that Dean was talking about women. The 0:08:20.862 --> 0:08:23.182 contention that was put to them was having lots of 0:08:23.262 --> 0:08:26.821 sexual partners is tied to your status as a man. 0:08:27.982 --> 0:08:31.462 Here's what Clayton Harrop, who was billed as a men's coach, 0:08:32.142 --> 0:08:34.902 had to say about women with what he called a 0:08:34.982 --> 0:08:35.901 high body count. 0:08:36.182 --> 0:08:37.901 It's the same as a car, Like this is a 0:08:37.982 --> 0:08:39.382 quick Women are not cars. 0:08:39.902 --> 0:08:40.862 Women are not cars. 0:08:41.102 --> 0:08:42.342 Do you take care of your car? 0:08:42.622 --> 0:08:42.782 Like? 0:08:42.942 --> 0:08:45.062 Do you do really when it's yours and yours alone? 0:08:45.102 --> 0:08:46.742 We take a little I want know other people driving 0:08:46.782 --> 0:08:48.062 my car put it that way, not. 0:08:47.982 --> 0:08:50.261 To say that she's less because of it, but. 0:08:50.262 --> 0:08:53.542 In terms, but it is it is inherently. 0:08:53.062 --> 0:08:56.062 That I'm most offended by how terrible that argument is. 0:08:56.422 --> 0:08:58.902 Like I know that the nature and like what he's 0:08:58.902 --> 0:09:02.342 actually saying is deeply offensive to women, but the quality 0:09:02.422 --> 0:09:04.102 of the argument is so poor. 0:09:04.462 --> 0:09:07.622 Yeah, I mean, look, it's not tremendously revealing. And that's 0:09:07.622 --> 0:09:09.502 what I want us to talk about here today, because 0:09:10.062 --> 0:09:12.102 I want to talk about whether there's any value in 0:09:12.182 --> 0:09:14.942 airing out views like this. I watched this so you 0:09:14.942 --> 0:09:18.182 don't have to. At another point, Dean Well said, we 0:09:18.342 --> 0:09:21.102 need men to basically stop being in therapy because it's 0:09:21.142 --> 0:09:25.182 over feminizing them. And Clayton, the guy who compared women 0:09:25.222 --> 0:09:28.462 to cars, kept talking about women's purity like we're a 0:09:28.502 --> 0:09:32.102 cleaning product. It upset me, and it upset a lot 0:09:32.102 --> 0:09:35.702 of other people. Mia Finlay accused SBS of rage baiting, 0:09:36.142 --> 0:09:39.782 and interestingly, one of the panelists, Jeff Kasubi, wrote later 0:09:39.822 --> 0:09:42.261 about the experience on Pedestrian and I just want to 0:09:42.302 --> 0:09:44.342 read a little bit of what he wrote. He said, 0:09:44.382 --> 0:09:46.822 from the moment we sat down, it became clear that 0:09:46.982 --> 0:09:52.021 nuance was not the priority. Who knew reaction took precedence 0:09:52.102 --> 0:09:55.982 over care. The loudest voices in the room were often 0:09:56.102 --> 0:10:00.822 those most unwilling to listen. Particularly the opinions of men 0:10:00.862 --> 0:10:03.582 of color were dismissed, and they were dismissed under the 0:10:03.622 --> 0:10:06.582 excuse of it's just my opinion because I should say 0:10:06.582 --> 0:10:08.742 that another one of the panelists rang Chorla, who was 0:10:08.742 --> 0:10:11.902 an anti violence campaigner whose sister was murdered by her husband. 0:10:12.222 --> 0:10:14.342 He came out afterwards and said he did see value 0:10:14.382 --> 0:10:16.862 in participating. He said that if just one man starts 0:10:16.902 --> 0:10:19.102 to question the culture that we've built as a result 0:10:19.102 --> 0:10:21.662 of his participation in this show, then there is value 0:10:21.702 --> 0:10:24.142 in that. Do we think that a debate of this 0:10:24.222 --> 0:10:25.502 sort ever changes minds? 0:10:25.502 --> 0:10:28.942 Holly, No, I don't think it changes minds, because I 0:10:28.982 --> 0:10:30.902 think that a lot of people just hear what they 0:10:31.022 --> 0:10:33.462 came here to hear. So I watched quite a bit 0:10:33.502 --> 0:10:38.142 of this this morning, and I wasn't particularly surprised by 0:10:38.222 --> 0:10:40.582 some of what some of these guys were saying, because 0:10:40.582 --> 0:10:42.822 I hear it on the internet all the time. Do 0:10:42.902 --> 0:10:45.622 I think it's dangerous that it got aired on SBS's 0:10:45.742 --> 0:10:46.542 YouTube channel. 0:10:46.982 --> 0:10:47.062 No. 0:10:47.862 --> 0:10:51.062 Do I think that it was a sort of cheap 0:10:51.062 --> 0:10:53.102 and not very evolved debate. 0:10:53.462 --> 0:10:53.702 Yes. 0:10:54.822 --> 0:10:57.782 I also think that SBS were clearly trying to hedge 0:10:57.782 --> 0:11:01.982 their bets because, for example, when Harrop was talking about purity, 0:11:02.542 --> 0:11:04.222 they put up a little box at the bottom that 0:11:04.262 --> 0:11:08.582 said context, and it said purity culture can be damaging 0:11:08.662 --> 0:11:10.662 because blah blah blah, and every now and again it 0:11:10.702 --> 0:11:13.502 would flash up a fact check or you know, another 0:11:13.542 --> 0:11:16.662 context box or a helpline or whatever. So they obviously 0:11:16.742 --> 0:11:19.622 knew that this was going to get a lot of criticism. 0:11:20.342 --> 0:11:22.342 The thing that was a bit disturbing to me to watch, 0:11:22.382 --> 0:11:24.502 and thank God for Terrang, you know, who is a 0:11:24.542 --> 0:11:28.822 tireless campaigner for women's safety. But is that what you 0:11:28.822 --> 0:11:31.462 were watching kind of felt a little bit like you 0:11:31.502 --> 0:11:34.702 could divide that panel into these three kind of very 0:11:35.622 --> 0:11:40.902 physically big masculine guys who did, as Jeff Kasubi said, 0:11:41.102 --> 0:11:44.381 they did shout the loudest, they did talk over everybody else, 0:11:44.902 --> 0:11:47.182 and then it became a very it was sort of 0:11:47.222 --> 0:11:49.141 like an ugly parody of what it was supposed to 0:11:49.182 --> 0:11:50.662 be debating, do you know what I mean. 0:11:50.782 --> 0:11:54.102 I felt that SBS did a decent job of addressing that. 0:11:54.422 --> 0:11:56.462 At times they jumped in and they said, oh, we 0:11:56.542 --> 0:11:59.342 haven't heard from Trang, and in that way, I think 0:11:59.382 --> 0:12:03.542 the moderation was useful. I actually really support this format 0:12:03.622 --> 0:12:06.462 for a few reasons. The first is that I really 0:12:06.542 --> 0:12:08.582 liked that they didn't have an audience. I think that 0:12:08.622 --> 0:12:11.222 when you have an audience, it totally changes the nature 0:12:11.262 --> 0:12:14.862 of the debate. Because people are speaking for applause and 0:12:14.942 --> 0:12:20.222 for clout, they might say something that sounds really effective, 0:12:20.782 --> 0:12:23.182 but when you actually drill down onto it, they haven't 0:12:23.182 --> 0:12:25.382 actually said anything. I found that in a lot, and 0:12:25.382 --> 0:12:28.982 I'm thinking about the trend, particularly in the US, where 0:12:29.022 --> 0:12:31.822 it's so and so, schools so and so, and they 0:12:31.862 --> 0:12:34.622 go and you know, speak to a college student or whatever, 0:12:34.862 --> 0:12:39.382 and you hear people in the audience booing or gasping, 0:12:39.542 --> 0:12:41.582 and I think that really throws people. And I don't 0:12:41.582 --> 0:12:44.542 think that that's conducive to good debate. So I quite 0:12:44.782 --> 0:12:47.782 liked that they just had the six men. 0:12:48.222 --> 0:12:49.902 Do you think it was a debate though? To think, 0:12:51.022 --> 0:12:52.982 I don't. That's my problem with this, And I know 0:12:53.022 --> 0:12:54.742 we're moving on to some of the other forms of 0:12:54.782 --> 0:12:57.782 debate we're seeing everywhere at the moment, I don't know 0:12:57.782 --> 0:12:59.342 that anyone was listening to each other. 0:12:59.422 --> 0:13:01.382 They weren't. They were speaking at each other, not to 0:13:01.422 --> 0:13:03.822 each other. And this is the issue with plucking people 0:13:04.062 --> 0:13:07.662 from their social media bubbles. Like you, Holly, I actually 0:13:07.662 --> 0:13:10.302 think put Dean Wells on that platform. I think that 0:13:10.422 --> 0:13:12.262 was a good call. And I think that it's like 0:13:12.782 --> 0:13:15.982 if you think that Dean Wells doesn't already have influence 0:13:16.022 --> 0:13:17.982 and already have a platform. You're wrong. He's got eighty 0:13:17.982 --> 0:13:19.422 four thousand followers on Instagram. 0:13:19.462 --> 0:13:21.422 He likes to comment on what we talk about quite Oh. 0:13:21.302 --> 0:13:24.102 Yeah, he's slipped into my DMS great debata. So if 0:13:24.102 --> 0:13:26.182 you put him in there, at least hold him to 0:13:26.222 --> 0:13:28.302 some sort of account, And I think he was probably 0:13:28.302 --> 0:13:31.182 on slightly better behavior than he normally would. I think 0:13:31.222 --> 0:13:35.222 what it uncovered is that a lot of these men 0:13:35.382 --> 0:13:38.062 don't actually have an argument. There was no substance to 0:13:38.222 --> 0:13:41.582 their argument. Dean Well's hearing at the beginning him trying 0:13:41.582 --> 0:13:43.062 to say, I'm not going to try and break it 0:13:43.102 --> 0:13:45.502 down on an intellectual level. I mean, that's the purpose 0:13:45.542 --> 0:13:48.062 of a debate, but no one was listening. The whole 0:13:48.062 --> 0:13:51.342 point of a debate is that there's curiosity, and there's humility, 0:13:51.542 --> 0:13:55.102 and there's leaning in and trying to understand and engage 0:13:55.102 --> 0:13:59.182 with the other side's points. But there wasn't any there 0:13:59.342 --> 0:14:01.462 There a lot of the time it was just them 0:14:01.502 --> 0:14:04.902 talking about how they like chicks who have had sex 0:14:04.942 --> 0:14:07.462 with less people like that's not an argument, and that's 0:14:07.502 --> 0:14:08.422 not the feeds fault. 0:14:08.662 --> 0:14:11.582 I don't criticize the feed, except for as I said, 0:14:11.582 --> 0:14:13.502 I found the sort of context boxes and stuff a 0:14:13.542 --> 0:14:15.742 little bit like we know what people are going to say, 0:14:15.782 --> 0:14:18.182 so let's say it first. Yeah, some of these men 0:14:18.302 --> 0:14:20.462 who are obviously out there talking on the internet all 0:14:20.462 --> 0:14:22.862 the time. As you say, Jesse, we're using very manisphere 0:14:22.942 --> 0:14:26.182 terms like body count for how many people you've slept with, 0:14:26.302 --> 0:14:29.222 very specifically how many men women had slept with, and 0:14:29.542 --> 0:14:32.262 high value men and high value women, which are very 0:14:32.302 --> 0:14:34.862 coded and are out there everywhere in the kind of 0:14:34.942 --> 0:14:38.222 content that kids are seeing on YouTube. I want to know, 0:14:38.542 --> 0:14:40.462 especially as you said to me at the beginning, that you, 0:14:40.862 --> 0:14:43.302 like Jesse, did a lot of debating at school. When 0:14:43.342 --> 0:14:45.342 you just said, Jesse, the point of a debate is 0:14:45.382 --> 0:14:47.822 to lean in and be curious and be interested, is it, 0:14:47.982 --> 0:14:49.862 or is the point of this kind of debate it's 0:14:49.902 --> 0:14:50.542 a competition. 0:14:50.942 --> 0:14:53.542 Yeah. And I also worry that we're paying too much 0:14:53.582 --> 0:14:57.582 attention to people who don't have very interesting viewpoints or 0:14:57.622 --> 0:15:00.382 who are not moving the debate forward. And we've started 0:15:00.582 --> 0:15:03.542 treating debater as entertainment. Yeah, when it's meant to be 0:15:03.582 --> 0:15:08.942 about edification and about sharing informed viewpoints and finding consensus 0:15:08.982 --> 0:15:12.302 in those viewpoints. So I want to bring in another 0:15:12.422 --> 0:15:15.742 upsetting YouTube debate that I watched last week. This one 0:15:15.902 --> 0:15:19.102 was from Jubilee, which is a company that's arguably done 0:15:19.102 --> 0:15:21.422 more than I would say any other company to turn 0:15:21.462 --> 0:15:25.142 debating into a competitive sport. So they have this format 0:15:25.182 --> 0:15:27.502 that they call Surrounded. Someone sits in the middle of 0:15:27.542 --> 0:15:31.222 a circle of twenty people who disagree with them, and 0:15:31.382 --> 0:15:34.862 they literally race to debate against this poor person in 0:15:34.902 --> 0:15:35.942 the center of the circle. 0:15:36.022 --> 0:15:38.662 It's with Jerry Springery in a way, it feels I 0:15:38.782 --> 0:15:40.222 kept waiting for violence to break out. 0:15:40.302 --> 0:15:43.582 Yeah, this particulars a victory Springer. So this one I 0:15:43.702 --> 0:15:47.262 kept hearing about it and how dramatic and extreme it got, 0:15:47.382 --> 0:15:50.022 so I did watch it. Ten million people watched it 0:15:50.062 --> 0:15:54.262 along with me. British born American citizen Mehdi Hassan was 0:15:54.302 --> 0:15:58.742 surrounded by what Jubilee called twenty far right conservatives, and 0:15:59.582 --> 0:16:02.382 Hassan definitely held his own I mean, he's written whole 0:16:02.382 --> 0:16:05.102 books about debating and how to be an effective debater, 0:16:05.182 --> 0:16:07.982 and he is an extremely effective debater. But what he 0:16:08.142 --> 0:16:11.022 said afterwards is that but he was prepared for a 0:16:11.022 --> 0:16:15.022 lot of really extreme viewpoints. He was not expecting over racism, 0:16:15.142 --> 0:16:17.702 and that is what he got. One person yelled him 0:16:17.742 --> 0:16:20.302 to go back to where he came from. Another one 0:16:20.382 --> 0:16:23.222 sat down and immediately started asking him about what his 0:16:23.302 --> 0:16:26.782 ethnic heritage was, and he happens to be of Indian descent, 0:16:26.902 --> 0:16:29.222 but he couldn't understand the relevance to that they were 0:16:29.222 --> 0:16:32.262 meant to be talking about Donald Trump, and so Hassan, 0:16:32.382 --> 0:16:36.902 I think interestingly, started to regret participating in this event. 0:16:36.982 --> 0:16:39.742 He is someone he is a professional debater, and he 0:16:39.782 --> 0:16:42.582 walked away from that thinking what did I achieve there? 0:16:42.702 --> 0:16:46.142 And at one particularly tense moment in the debate, he 0:16:46.302 --> 0:16:49.582 simply stopped debating. He refused to debate. It was because 0:16:49.582 --> 0:16:52.062 he found himself speaking to someone who's self identified as 0:16:52.102 --> 0:16:55.622 a fascist. And later he said, that's my line. Fascism 0:16:55.702 --> 0:16:59.222 is violence. It is not about solving political disagreements through 0:16:59.222 --> 0:17:02.422 talking and consensus and elections. And I will not speak 0:17:02.462 --> 0:17:05.942 to someone who identifies as a fascist. So when even 0:17:05.982 --> 0:17:09.101 the professional debater is saying I'm done with debating, I 0:17:09.142 --> 0:17:11.542 wonder if we've reached this point where it's becoming almost 0:17:11.542 --> 0:17:15.461 impossible to have a civilized debate. And I wanted to 0:17:15.502 --> 0:17:16.942 throw this back at the two of you a bit. 0:17:17.061 --> 0:17:20.821 I remember that in fairly recent history on this podcast, 0:17:21.341 --> 0:17:24.381 you've celebrated the fact that you were able to disagree 0:17:24.381 --> 0:17:27.742 with one another respectfully and correct me if I'm wrong. 0:17:27.742 --> 0:17:29.942 But I feel like over the last couple of years 0:17:30.022 --> 0:17:32.302 I've noticed a bit of a pulling back on that messaging. 0:17:32.661 --> 0:17:35.022 Is that because our times have become so polarized that 0:17:35.022 --> 0:17:37.221 we don't even want a debate amongst people who we 0:17:37.341 --> 0:17:38.502 basically agree. 0:17:38.182 --> 0:17:42.222 With, I feel as though our tolerance for disagreement might 0:17:42.621 --> 0:17:45.302 have gone down a little. People might feel as though 0:17:45.381 --> 0:17:49.742 everywhere they look in their feeds, at their dinner tables, 0:17:49.821 --> 0:17:53.022 there is just constant disagreement. And in saying that, I 0:17:53.061 --> 0:17:57.262 think that we often do disagree about things on this show, 0:17:57.982 --> 0:18:01.942 but when the stakes of something is very very high, 0:18:02.101 --> 0:18:07.661 and the potential of seriously hurting someone is there, I 0:18:07.702 --> 0:18:12.542 think we're probably more careful than we were before. I 0:18:12.542 --> 0:18:14.502 think it's probably because this show has grown and our 0:18:14.542 --> 0:18:18.502 platform has grown, and with that comes more responsibility. But 0:18:18.782 --> 0:18:21.941 I was thinking, Amelia, you kind of clarified something for 0:18:22.022 --> 0:18:25.302 me there, because what a lot of the analysis has 0:18:25.302 --> 0:18:28.022 said is that you've got Ben Shapiro for people who 0:18:28.022 --> 0:18:30.662 don't know him he's kind of a right wing conservative 0:18:31.341 --> 0:18:34.421 voice in the US, and he, I would say, popularized 0:18:34.542 --> 0:18:37.621 the fight me like that. I think it's almost the 0:18:37.782 --> 0:18:42.942 wwe of debating, of using debating as entertainment but also 0:18:42.982 --> 0:18:46.502 as sport. Like he's this guy who will say abortion 0:18:46.702 --> 0:18:49.981 is wrong, fight me, and then he speaks really quickly, 0:18:50.141 --> 0:18:52.341 doesn't listen to the other person at all, and then 0:18:52.702 --> 0:18:55.901 owns them in capital letters, and then the video goes viral. 0:18:56.302 --> 0:18:58.621 The new version of that is Charlie Kirk. And Charlie 0:18:58.702 --> 0:19:01.821 Kirk goes to universities. You've probably seen him on your feed. 0:19:02.462 --> 0:19:04.341 Someone says something and he'll go, but what is a 0:19:04.381 --> 0:19:06.622 woman or something, and then that's kind of like, oh, 0:19:06.661 --> 0:19:08.942 he wins him ram booze and it's just this kind 0:19:09.022 --> 0:19:11.502 of spectacle. And a lot of place in the US 0:19:11.542 --> 0:19:14.581 have said even the Jubilee, the guy who created Jubilee, 0:19:14.982 --> 0:19:16.821 people have said, well, why aren't your platforming the left 0:19:16.861 --> 0:19:19.901 wing version of Kirk or Shapiro, And he's like, point 0:19:19.901 --> 0:19:22.942 to them, there isn't left wing versions. What you clarified 0:19:22.942 --> 0:19:26.101 for me is the cost of doing that if you 0:19:26.141 --> 0:19:29.141 are not a white straight man. The thing about Shapiro 0:19:29.341 --> 0:19:31.022 or Kirk is that they feel they can play with 0:19:31.061 --> 0:19:34.782 ideas in a way that if you are any minority, 0:19:35.222 --> 0:19:39.422 it becomes about your identity, so people will start to 0:19:39.462 --> 0:19:42.181 mock you. This happens in the public eye. Remember Hamish 0:19:42.222 --> 0:19:44.941 McDonald on Q and A. His trolling wasn't about his ideas, 0:19:44.942 --> 0:19:46.741 it was about the fact that he was gay, like 0:19:46.901 --> 0:19:49.902