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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: MoMA Mia. Out loud what we've been are actually talking about?

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Speaker 2: On Monday, the eleventh of August. I'm Holly Wayne right,

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Speaker 2: and it just occurred to me I might be shouting.

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Speaker 2: Had some feedback this week that sometimes when I talk,

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Speaker 2: I wake a baby.

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Speaker 3: And that I can be too quiet. So I'm working

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Speaker 3: on my loudness on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: But when I just jumped in and went hello, oh,

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Speaker 2: I suddenly thought shit, I've just wokened the nation's babies.

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Speaker 1: I apologize.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: I'm Amelia Lester and here's.

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Speaker 2: What made our agenda for today. Does every group chat

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Speaker 2: in your life spawn two more group chats?

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Speaker 1: Yes, LUs as some issues just not up for debate.

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Speaker 1: As a former high school debater that will suppose no one,

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Speaker 1: this is personal for.

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Speaker 3: Me and the surprising reason why divorce rates in Australa

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Speaker 3: are at a fifty year low.

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Speaker 2: But first, Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Instagram just launched a new

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Speaker 3: feature that shows all your followers where you are right now? Hey,

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Speaker 3: So this rolled out in the US last week, with

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Speaker 3: lots of users claiming that they were shocked to find

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Speaker 3: their whereabouts was being shared to their followers without their knowledge.

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Speaker 3: The head of Instagram, his name is Adam Mussori, released

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Speaker 3: a statement in response, assuring users that to start, location

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Speaker 3: sharing will be off, but you can opt in so

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Speaker 3: you can better connect with your friends on Instagram. It

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Speaker 3: is likely that this feature will come to Australia very soon,

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Speaker 3: which comes with a whole host of concerns, including things

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Speaker 3: like tech based coercive control. One in five young adults,

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Speaker 3: according to recent research, believe it is reasonable to track

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Speaker 3: a partner's location. So that's just become the default. So

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Speaker 3: if it's on an app that everyone's watching where they are,

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Speaker 3: then it becomes sort of conspicuous if you turn it off. Holly,

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Speaker 3: Why why would anyone want their followers to know where

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Speaker 3: they are right now?

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Speaker 2: I have no idea, but it's really interesting because I

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Speaker 2: saw this and quite a few people shared it with

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Speaker 2: me on the weekend. Because I'm on the record several

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Speaker 2: times as saying I hate location sharing. I don't track

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Speaker 2: anyone in my house.

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Speaker 3: You won't let me attract you. She tries, she tries

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Speaker 3: to put like little tags around Inta and you're like, nah,

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Speaker 3: she's dropping.

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Speaker 2: Air tags into her pockets. Yes, I am allergic to it.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know why I need to prosecute this

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Speaker 2: at some point, but generally speaking, I just think privacy

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Speaker 2: and none of your business, not even big safety concerns,

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Speaker 2: just like you don't need to know where I am

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Speaker 2: and what I'm doing. Nobody needs to know that.

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Speaker 3: I think secrets are a basic human right. I don't

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Speaker 3: even have them. I just think I have the right

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Speaker 3: to have them exactly.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because, I mean, you just sort of

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Speaker 2: mentioned this about how it's become table stakes and relationships.

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Speaker 2: But the New York Times run a story recently that like,

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Speaker 2: are you at location sharing level? It's like going Instagram official,

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Speaker 2: you know, changing your status in your whatever update and

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Speaker 2: location sharing. It's supposed to be the ultimate intimacy. And

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Speaker 2: I cannot understand it. But I think we know why

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Speaker 2: the tech platform would do this.

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Speaker 3: Why why would Instagram want to do this?

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Speaker 2: So A, they believe their audience want it, but more pertinently,

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Speaker 2: the more information they have about us, the more things

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Speaker 2: they can sell to us. We all know that right

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Speaker 2: data mining is the number one thing that tech companies

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Speaker 2: like to do, and if they know where you are,

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Speaker 2: they can target you better with ads of all kinds.

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Speaker 3: Okay, because this came at an interesting time, which is

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Speaker 3: I think just in the last week, there was this

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Speaker 3: massive lawsuit that wrapped up in California. Have you sayen this,

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Speaker 3: no tell me? Meta a legally collected data from another

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Speaker 3: app so that it could specifically target people. That other

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Speaker 3: app was Flow, which I have on my phone, the

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Speaker 3: Period Appeah, the period app. So it is a health app.

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Speaker 3: It is I think the most downloaded women's health app.

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Speaker 3: Now why would they information on where I am in

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Speaker 3: my cycle? Why would they want that? Well, my mood changes,

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Speaker 3: there are concerns about weight, or maybe I have a breakout.

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Speaker 3: Do you want to sell me a special cream? Maybe

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Speaker 3: you notice that at my lucial phase I have less

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Speaker 3: impulse control, So we can start kind of putting those

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Speaker 3: ads out. It's been a massive, massive deal and they've

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Speaker 3: been punished for it, and a lot of Flow users

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Speaker 3: have gone hang on this, you know, starts a lot

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Speaker 3: of privacy concerns. But this is why people are very

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Speaker 3: suspicious of Meta.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because Instagram called this and I love this phrase,

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Speaker 1: a new lightweight way to connect, which sounds so nice.

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Speaker 1: But you know who doesn't want to connect and share

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Speaker 1: his location? Mark Zuckerberg. There was a fascinating expose this

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Speaker 1: weekend in The New York Times about how he's basically

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Speaker 1: brought up an entire suburb in northern California outside San

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Speaker 1: Francisco because he doesn't want anyone near him, so he

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Speaker 1: lives in one large house. He has also bought eleven

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Speaker 1: houses around his house for a cost of they estimate

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Speaker 1: about one hundred and fifty million AUSI dollars. Now he

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Speaker 1: is worth two hundred and seventy billions, so don't worry

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Speaker 1: too much about that. But he's even opened a private

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Speaker 1: school in one of these eleven houses, which goes against

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Speaker 1: all the zoning regulations for his two daughters and ten

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Speaker 1: other children. And neighbors say they can no longer walk

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Speaker 1: down the street, they can't use the footpath outside his

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Speaker 1: house without being asked to move along by men in

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Speaker 1: large SUVs privacy, and they're always having parties and blocking driveways,

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Speaker 1: and they've even had the city like block off streets

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Speaker 1: successfully so that no one can get near the parties,

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Speaker 1: so someone's not interconnecting.

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Speaker 3: Ah, that's not about connecting.

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Speaker 2: You know what though, as you know, I have this

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Speaker 2: allergic reaction to location sharing. But certainly my daughter and

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Speaker 2: her friends don't even blink about it. They don't even

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Speaker 2: think about it. They think it's so normal because they

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Speaker 2: can all look at where each other are at all times.

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Speaker 2: And the only reason that they can see for turning

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Speaker 2: off your life sharing on snap maps or whatever is

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Speaker 2: that you would be literally doing something that you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be doing, or something that you know your friends would

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Speaker 2: get mad.

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Speaker 1: With you about.

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Speaker 2: So the set expectation is, unless you are behaving badly,

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Speaker 2: you should have no reason for privacy. And I wonder

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Speaker 2: if you know the people who like us, well not

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Speaker 2: necessarily us, but me who are arking up about this

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Speaker 2: are just outsiders in that generation where it just is

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Speaker 2: the most normal.

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Speaker 3: Thing in the world, because this is snap maps, right

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Speaker 3: like this, this is what we do, just like TikTok

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Speaker 3: kind of makes video and then they instagram goes really

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Speaker 3: hard on reels like this is the kind of thing

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Speaker 3: you do. But you hear stories of people going, oh,

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Speaker 3: I discovered that my friend is back with her ex

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Speaker 3: boyfriend because on snap maps I could see where she was.

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Speaker 3: You just wait, Matilda, you wait until you have secrets

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Speaker 3: like the rest of us.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and of course we should point out there

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Speaker 2: are genuine safety concerns with this kind of location sharing

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Speaker 2: being used in bad relationships, bad faith actors, and stalking.

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Speaker 2: Like it's really really interesting. I'm not going to try

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Speaker 2: and break it down on an intellectual level. I just

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Speaker 2: find a check that's been with way too many guys.

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Speaker 2: I find that unattractive.

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Speaker 1: That important contribution to knowledge, to the exploration of the

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Speaker 1: human condition came from Dean Wells, an expert on masculinity.

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Speaker 1: No just kidding. Dean Wells was on season five IF

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Speaker 1: Married at First Sight, but he did appear last week

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Speaker 1: on an episode of SBS's The Feed. The Feed is

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Speaker 1: a current of THEIRS show, and this episode made people

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Speaker 1: very upset. It was called Men Debate Masculinity, and it

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Speaker 1: was a forty three minute debate that dropped on YouTube

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Speaker 1: on Friday. SBS introduced the segment, perhaps justified what was

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Speaker 1: to come by saying, these are claims and opinions that

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Speaker 1: are being debated online. What I love about that is

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Speaker 1: literally everything can be put under the umbrella of claims

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Speaker 1: and opinions that are being debated online, and we heard

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Speaker 1: the opinions certainly run the gamut from acceptable to not

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Speaker 1: so acceptable. Frankly, the first contention put to the group

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Speaker 1: of six panelists and which Dean was trying to answer,

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Speaker 1: and that clip you just heard, wasn't actually about women.

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Speaker 1: Despite the fact that Dean was talking about women. The

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Speaker 1: contention that was put to them was having lots of

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Speaker 1: sexual partners is tied to your status as a man.

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Speaker 1: Here's what Clayton Harrop, who was billed as a men's coach,

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Speaker 1: had to say about women with what he called a

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Speaker 1: high body count.

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Speaker 2: It's the same as a car, Like this is a

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Speaker 2: quick Women are not cars.

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Speaker 3: Women are not cars.

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Speaker 2: Do you take care of your car?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Do you do really when it's yours and yours alone?

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Speaker 3: We take a little I want know other people driving

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Speaker 3: my car put it that way, not.

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Speaker 2: To say that she's less because of it, but.

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Speaker 1: In terms, but it is it is inherently.

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Speaker 3: That I'm most offended by how terrible that argument is.

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Speaker 3: Like I know that the nature and like what he's

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Speaker 3: actually saying is deeply offensive to women, but the quality

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Speaker 3: of the argument is so poor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, it's not tremendously revealing. And that's

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Speaker 1: what I want us to talk about here today, because

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about whether there's any value in

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Speaker 1: airing out views like this. I watched this so you

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Speaker 1: don't have to. At another point, Dean Well said, we

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Speaker 1: need men to basically stop being in therapy because it's

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Speaker 1: over feminizing them. And Clayton, the guy who compared women

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Speaker 1: to cars, kept talking about women's purity like we're a

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Speaker 1: cleaning product. It upset me, and it upset a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people. Mia Finlay accused SBS of rage baiting,

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Speaker 1: and interestingly, one of the panelists, Jeff Kasubi, wrote later

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Speaker 1: about the experience on Pedestrian and I just want to

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Speaker 1: read a little bit of what he wrote. He said,

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Speaker 1: from the moment we sat down, it became clear that

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Speaker 1: nuance was not the priority. Who knew reaction took precedence

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Speaker 1: over care. The loudest voices in the room were often

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Speaker 1: those most unwilling to listen. Particularly the opinions of men

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Speaker 1: of color were dismissed, and they were dismissed under the

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Speaker 1: excuse of it's just my opinion because I should say

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Speaker 1: that another one of the panelists rang Chorla, who was

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Speaker 1: an anti violence campaigner whose sister was murdered by her husband.

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Speaker 1: He came out afterwards and said he did see value

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Speaker 1: in participating. He said that if just one man starts

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Speaker 1: to question the culture that we've built as a result

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Speaker 1: of his participation in this show, then there is value

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Speaker 1: in that. Do we think that a debate of this

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Speaker 1: sort ever changes minds?

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Speaker 2: Holly, No, I don't think it changes minds, because I

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Speaker 2: think that a lot of people just hear what they

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Speaker 2: came here to hear. So I watched quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of this this morning, and I wasn't particularly surprised by

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Speaker 2: some of what some of these guys were saying, because

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Speaker 2: I hear it on the internet all the time. Do

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Speaker 2: I think it's dangerous that it got aired on SBS's

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Speaker 2: YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Do I think that it was a sort of cheap

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Speaker 2: and not very evolved debate.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: I also think that SBS were clearly trying to hedge

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Speaker 2: their bets because, for example, when Harrop was talking about purity,

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Speaker 2: they put up a little box at the bottom that

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Speaker 2: said context, and it said purity culture can be damaging

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Speaker 2: because blah blah blah, and every now and again it

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Speaker 2: would flash up a fact check or you know, another

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Speaker 2: context box or a helpline or whatever. So they obviously

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Speaker 2: knew that this was going to get a lot of criticism.

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Speaker 2: The thing that was a bit disturbing to me to watch,

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Speaker 2: and thank God for Terrang, you know, who is a

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Speaker 2: tireless campaigner for women's safety. But is that what you

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Speaker 2: were watching kind of felt a little bit like you

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Speaker 2: could divide that panel into these three kind of very

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Speaker 2: physically big masculine guys who did, as Jeff Kasubi said,

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Speaker 2: they did shout the loudest, they did talk over everybody else,

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Speaker 2: and then it became a very it was sort of

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Speaker 2: like an ugly parody of what it was supposed to

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Speaker 2: be debating, do you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I felt that SBS did a decent job of addressing that.

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Speaker 3: At times they jumped in and they said, oh, we

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Speaker 3: haven't heard from Trang, and in that way, I think

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Speaker 3: the moderation was useful. I actually really support this format

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Speaker 3: for a few reasons. The first is that I really

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Speaker 3: liked that they didn't have an audience. I think that

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Speaker 3: when you have an audience, it totally changes the nature

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Speaker 3: of the debate. Because people are speaking for applause and

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Speaker 3: for clout, they might say something that sounds really effective,

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Speaker 3: but when you actually drill down onto it, they haven't

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Speaker 3: actually said anything. I found that in a lot, and

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the trend, particularly in the US, where

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Speaker 3: it's so and so, schools so and so, and they

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Speaker 3: go and you know, speak to a college student or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and you hear people in the audience booing or gasping,

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Speaker 3: and I think that really throws people. And I don't

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Speaker 3: think that that's conducive to good debate. So I quite

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Speaker 3: liked that they just had the six men.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it was a debate though? To think,

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Speaker 2: I don't. That's my problem with this, And I know

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Speaker 2: we're moving on to some of the other forms of

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Speaker 2: debate we're seeing everywhere at the moment, I don't know

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Speaker 2: that anyone was listening to each other.

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Speaker 3: They weren't. They were speaking at each other, not to

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Speaker 3: each other. And this is the issue with plucking people

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Speaker 3: from their social media bubbles. Like you, Holly, I actually

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Speaker 3: think put Dean Wells on that platform. I think that

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Speaker 3: was a good call. And I think that it's like

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Speaker 3: if you think that Dean Wells doesn't already have influence

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Speaker 3: and already have a platform. You're wrong. He's got eighty

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Speaker 3: four thousand followers on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: He likes to comment on what we talk about quite Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's slipped into my DMS great debata. So if

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Speaker 3: you put him in there, at least hold him to

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Speaker 3: some sort of account, And I think he was probably

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Speaker 3: on slightly better behavior than he normally would. I think

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Speaker 3: what it uncovered is that a lot of these men

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Speaker 3: don't actually have an argument. There was no substance to

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Speaker 3: their argument. Dean Well's hearing at the beginning him trying

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Speaker 3: to say, I'm not going to try and break it

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Speaker 3: down on an intellectual level. I mean, that's the purpose

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Speaker 3: of a debate, but no one was listening. The whole

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Speaker 3: point of a debate is that there's curiosity, and there's humility,

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Speaker 3: and there's leaning in and trying to understand and engage

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Speaker 3: with the other side's points. But there wasn't any there

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Speaker 3: There a lot of the time it was just them

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Speaker 3: talking about how they like chicks who have had sex

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Speaker 3: with less people like that's not an argument, and that's

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Speaker 3: not the feeds fault.

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Speaker 2: I don't criticize the feed, except for as I said,

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Speaker 2: I found the sort of context boxes and stuff a

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Speaker 2: little bit like we know what people are going to say,

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Speaker 2: so let's say it first. Yeah, some of these men

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Speaker 2: who are obviously out there talking on the internet all

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Speaker 2: the time. As you say, Jesse, we're using very manisphere

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Speaker 2: terms like body count for how many people you've slept with,

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Speaker 2: very specifically how many men women had slept with, and

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Speaker 2: high value men and high value women, which are very

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Speaker 2: coded and are out there everywhere in the kind of

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Speaker 2: content that kids are seeing on YouTube. I want to know,

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Speaker 2: especially as you said to me at the beginning, that you,

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Speaker 2: like Jesse, did a lot of debating at school. When

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Speaker 2: you just said, Jesse, the point of a debate is

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Speaker 2: to lean in and be curious and be interested, is it,

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Speaker 2: or is the point of this kind of debate it's

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Speaker 2: a competition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I also worry that we're paying too much

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Speaker 1: attention to people who don't have very interesting viewpoints or

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Speaker 1: who are not moving the debate forward. And we've started

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Speaker 1: treating debater as entertainment. Yeah, when it's meant to be

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Speaker 1: about edification and about sharing informed viewpoints and finding consensus

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Speaker 1: in those viewpoints. So I want to bring in another

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Speaker 1: upsetting YouTube debate that I watched last week. This one

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Speaker 1: was from Jubilee, which is a company that's arguably done

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Speaker 1: more than I would say any other company to turn

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Speaker 1: debating into a competitive sport. So they have this format

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Speaker 1: that they call Surrounded. Someone sits in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a circle of twenty people who disagree with them, and

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Speaker 1: they literally race to debate against this poor person in

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Speaker 1: the center of the circle.

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Speaker 2: It's with Jerry Springery in a way, it feels I

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Speaker 2: kept waiting for violence to break out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this particulars a victory Springer. So this one I

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Speaker 1: kept hearing about it and how dramatic and extreme it got,

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Speaker 1: so I did watch it. Ten million people watched it

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Speaker 1: along with me. British born American citizen Mehdi Hassan was

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Speaker 1: surrounded by what Jubilee called twenty far right conservatives, and

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Speaker 1: Hassan definitely held his own I mean, he's written whole

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Speaker 1: books about debating and how to be an effective debater,

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Speaker 1: and he is an extremely effective debater. But what he

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Speaker 1: said afterwards is that but he was prepared for a

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Speaker 1: lot of really extreme viewpoints. He was not expecting over racism,

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Speaker 1: and that is what he got. One person yelled him

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Speaker 1: to go back to where he came from. Another one

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Speaker 1: sat down and immediately started asking him about what his

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Speaker 1: ethnic heritage was, and he happens to be of Indian descent,

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Speaker 1: but he couldn't understand the relevance to that they were

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Speaker 1: meant to be talking about Donald Trump, and so Hassan,

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Speaker 1: I think interestingly, started to regret participating in this event.

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Speaker 1: He is someone he is a professional debater, and he

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Speaker 1: walked away from that thinking what did I achieve there?

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Speaker 1: And at one particularly tense moment in the debate, he

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Speaker 1: simply stopped debating. He refused to debate. It was because

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Speaker 1: he found himself speaking to someone who's self identified as

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Speaker 1: a fascist. And later he said, that's my line. Fascism

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Speaker 1: is violence. It is not about solving political disagreements through

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Speaker 1: talking and consensus and elections. And I will not speak

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Speaker 1: to someone who identifies as a fascist. So when even

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Speaker 1: the professional debater is saying I'm done with debating, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if we've reached this point where it's becoming almost

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Speaker 1: impossible to have a civilized debate. And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: throw this back at the two of you a bit.

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Speaker 1: I remember that in fairly recent history on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you've celebrated the fact that you were able to disagree

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Speaker 1: with one another respectfully and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like over the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: I've noticed a bit of a pulling back on that messaging.

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Speaker 1: Is that because our times have become so polarized that

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Speaker 1: we don't even want a debate amongst people who we

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Speaker 1: basically agree.

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Speaker 3: With, I feel as though our tolerance for disagreement might

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Speaker 3: have gone down a little. People might feel as though

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Speaker 3: everywhere they look in their feeds, at their dinner tables,

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Speaker 3: there is just constant disagreement. And in saying that, I

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Speaker 3: think that we often do disagree about things on this show,

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Speaker 3: but when the stakes of something is very very high,

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Speaker 3: and the potential of seriously hurting someone is there, I

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Speaker 3: think we're probably more careful than we were before. I

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Speaker 3: think it's probably because this show has grown and our

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Speaker 3: platform has grown, and with that comes more responsibility. But

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Speaker 3: I was thinking, Amelia, you kind of clarified something for

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Speaker 3: me there, because what a lot of the analysis has

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Speaker 3: said is that you've got Ben Shapiro for people who

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Speaker 3: don't know him he's kind of a right wing conservative

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Speaker 3: voice in the US, and he, I would say, popularized

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Speaker 3: the fight me like that. I think it's almost the

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Speaker 3: wwe of debating, of using debating as entertainment but also

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Speaker 3: as sport. Like he's this guy who will say abortion

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Speaker 3: is wrong, fight me, and then he speaks really quickly,

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Speaker 3: doesn't listen to the other person at all, and then

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Speaker 3: owns them in capital letters, and then the video goes viral.

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Speaker 3: The new version of that is Charlie Kirk. And Charlie

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Speaker 3: Kirk goes to universities. You've probably seen him on your feed.

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Speaker 3: Someone says something and he'll go, but what is a

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Speaker 3: woman or something, and then that's kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: he wins him ram booze and it's just this kind

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Speaker 3: of spectacle. And a lot of place in the US

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Speaker 3: have said even the Jubilee, the guy who created Jubilee,

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Speaker 3: people have said, well, why aren't your platforming the left

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Speaker 3: wing version of Kirk or Shapiro, And he's like, point

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Speaker 3: to them, there isn't left wing versions. What you clarified

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Speaker 3: for me is the cost of doing that if you

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Speaker 3: are not a white straight man. The thing about Shapiro

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Speaker 3: or Kirk is that they feel they can play with

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Speaker 3: ideas in a way that if you are any minority,

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Speaker 3: it becomes about your identity, so people will start to

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Speaker 3: mock you. This happens in the public eye. Remember Hamish

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Speaker 3: McDonald on Q and A. His trolling wasn't about his ideas,

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Speaker 3: it was about the fact that he was gay, like

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Speaker 3: it was homophobia. Same with anyone in the public eye,

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Speaker 3: Walid Ali or any woman. It just becomes about their identity.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe his son on Jubile exactly.

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Speaker 3: So what happens is it becomes white men shouting at

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Speaker 3: minorities or feeling like they can have debates because doesn't

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Speaker 3: really impact them, maybe the outcome, or.

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Speaker 2: So they're not viewing it as sport. Like I think

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Speaker 2: there is danger to the fact that this has become entertainment.

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Speaker 2: It feels like the new Colosseum, the new Gladiate. Like

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Speaker 2: we watching the bits of this that I watched the

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Speaker 2: Jubilee conversation. There's a point at which one of the

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Speaker 2: guys who's sitting opposite Hassan says, what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the US right now? And the guy who's saying this

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Speaker 2: is one of the far right guys. He's saying it's

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Speaker 2: tribal warfare. Right, He's saying it's tribal warfare. That's where

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Speaker 2: we are. The thing is is that that's how this

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Speaker 2: is all set up. It's set up as fun and games,

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Speaker 2: and it's not fun and games for so many people

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Speaker 2: who are directly affected by these arguments.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I can't say that I think that the left

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Speaker 2: have a completely clean slate on this. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: can't remember his name, but there are plenty of late

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Speaker 2: night TV guys who, during a various election cycles, get

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Speaker 2: a lot of sport out of going to Trump rallies

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Speaker 2: and interviewing people and making them look dumb and broadcasting

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Speaker 2: that and making like, let's all loll at the stupid rednecks.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of their trope, and that trope has been

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Speaker 2: out there for a long time, and plenty of people

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Speaker 2: think it isn't a coincidence that a lot of the

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Speaker 2: so called stupid rednecks and inverted commas have got sick

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Speaker 2: of that, feel empowered by it. Now they want to

433
00:21:21,581 --> 00:21:25,581
Speaker 2: own the Libs and own the feminists and it's all

434
00:21:25,661 --> 00:21:28,662
Speaker 2: ugly and it's all competition and there's no respect. And

435
00:21:28,702 --> 00:21:32,502
Speaker 2: to the point about respectful disagreement. I think I would

436
00:21:32,502 --> 00:21:35,181
Speaker 2: still defend that position, but I think that there's a

437
00:21:35,341 --> 00:21:39,141
Speaker 2: very crucial component you need for any disagreement to be respectful.

438
00:21:39,581 --> 00:21:41,942
Speaker 2: I remember someone saying to me ages ago about out loud.

439
00:21:41,942 --> 00:21:43,861
Speaker 2: They said, one of the reasons why you can disagree

440
00:21:43,901 --> 00:21:47,821
Speaker 2: respectfully is that although you disagree about lots of things,

441
00:21:47,861 --> 00:21:52,141
Speaker 2: you share values. Like we can argue about various things,

442
00:21:52,141 --> 00:21:55,981
Speaker 2: but nobody's sitting here genuinely thinking, you know, as some

443
00:21:56,061 --> 00:21:59,702
Speaker 2: of the guys on the surrounded clearly did, that they

444
00:21:59,742 --> 00:22:02,542
Speaker 2: are fascists, that they believe that white people are superior.

445
00:22:02,581 --> 00:22:05,061
Speaker 2: You know that the very basics of the values that

446
00:22:05,061 --> 00:22:08,302
Speaker 2: they're talking about are too extreme for debate to the

447
00:22:08,341 --> 00:22:12,462
Speaker 2: point here, you know, whereas I think, to disagree respectfully

448
00:22:12,502 --> 00:22:15,181
Speaker 2: you have to kind of agree on the basic parameters

449
00:22:15,262 --> 00:22:17,341
Speaker 2: of what we all think humanity is and what we

450
00:22:17,381 --> 00:22:19,622
Speaker 2: all think the way that a civilized society should work.

451
00:22:19,901 --> 00:22:22,781
Speaker 1: Which is why Maddie has Son refused to debate the

452
00:22:22,821 --> 00:22:25,742
Speaker 1: fascist because he says, well, we don't have that common

453
00:22:25,742 --> 00:22:26,462
Speaker 1: ground anymore.

454
00:22:26,502 --> 00:22:28,341
Speaker 2: But should he have agreed to go in that circle

455
00:22:28,341 --> 00:22:30,862
Speaker 2: in the first place. It's interesting because it's self promotion

456
00:22:31,022 --> 00:22:33,341
Speaker 2: for him, like with all respect. I mean, I genuinely

457
00:22:33,422 --> 00:22:34,422
Speaker 2: the first five minutes of that.

458
00:22:34,422 --> 00:22:35,581
Speaker 1: I thought, what a brave guy.

459
00:22:36,141 --> 00:22:38,901
Speaker 2: But he's got his own news platform, he's promoting it.

460
00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:42,102
Speaker 2: It's all this is all sport. It's all sport, it's

461
00:22:42,141 --> 00:22:45,581
Speaker 2: all show, it's all gladiators. It's not actually, you know,

462
00:22:45,621 --> 00:22:48,581
Speaker 2: when you said earlier, Amelia, the point of actual debate,

463
00:22:48,621 --> 00:22:50,381
Speaker 2: what it's supposed to do. That's not what any of

464
00:22:50,381 --> 00:22:50,981
Speaker 2: this is about.

465
00:22:51,381 --> 00:22:52,821
Speaker 3: So what do we do though? Do we all just

466
00:22:52,901 --> 00:22:56,661
Speaker 3: yell into our own voids? Because social media has deteriorated

467
00:22:56,742 --> 00:23:00,381
Speaker 3: the standard of discourse so so much that it is

468
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,302
Speaker 3: not about you know, I was reading something the other

469
00:23:03,381 --> 00:23:05,621
Speaker 3: day that said, go hard on structures, go easy on people.

470
00:23:05,702 --> 00:23:08,221
Speaker 3: We don't do that anymore. We do the complete opposite.

471
00:23:08,581 --> 00:23:12,022
Speaker 3: And everyone wants to present monologues into the void and

472
00:23:12,702 --> 00:23:15,782
Speaker 3: ignore anything that comes back. We are now just doing that.

473
00:23:15,821 --> 00:23:16,262
Speaker 3: In person.

474
00:23:16,422 --> 00:23:16,982
Speaker 2: I agree.

475
00:23:17,101 --> 00:23:19,542
Speaker 1: I'm struggling with it because I remember when we talked

476
00:23:19,542 --> 00:23:23,221
Speaker 1: about adolescence, the Netflix show on here, and the importance

477
00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:27,022
Speaker 1: of talking to men. It's not just a women's problem

478
00:23:27,061 --> 00:23:29,502
Speaker 1: that there's violence against women, and there's not just a

479
00:23:29,542 --> 00:23:33,382
Speaker 1: women's problem that women continue to be discriminated against. We've

480
00:23:33,381 --> 00:23:36,302
Speaker 1: got to talk to men. Well, I guess SBS decided

481
00:23:36,341 --> 00:23:38,341
Speaker 1: to take us up on that and talk to men.

482
00:23:38,821 --> 00:23:42,022
Speaker 1: And so I'm reluctant to sit here and then criticize

483
00:23:42,101 --> 00:23:48,101
Speaker 1: men for speaking honestly and openly about what they really think. However,

484
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:50,942
Speaker 1: I do want to make a pitch. We talked about

485
00:23:50,982 --> 00:23:54,782
Speaker 1: how debating has become sport. I am watching Unreal on Netflix,

486
00:23:55,022 --> 00:23:59,262
Speaker 1: which is behind the scenes of WWE weirdly compelling. Oh yeah,

487
00:23:59,302 --> 00:24:02,141
Speaker 1: if each is actually an Australian woman, Rhea Ripley, who

488
00:24:02,182 --> 00:24:05,502
Speaker 1: is the world champion in women's wrestling. It's sort of

489
00:24:05,542 --> 00:24:08,982
Speaker 1: like the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders documentary bit for wrestling. Watch

490
00:24:09,141 --> 00:24:11,941
Speaker 1: wa E when you want to see people duke it

491
00:24:12,022 --> 00:24:15,902
Speaker 1: out in the ring using violence. That's great, doesn't hurt

492
00:24:15,942 --> 00:24:19,302
Speaker 1: anyone most of the time. Debating should remain boring, just

493
00:24:19,341 --> 00:24:21,221
Speaker 1: like it was when we were in high school and

494
00:24:21,222 --> 00:24:23,101
Speaker 1: everyone made fun of us for being nerds. That's how

495
00:24:23,141 --> 00:24:23,622
Speaker 1: it should be.

496
00:24:23,782 --> 00:24:27,102
Speaker 2: Well, politics should be boring, like leading is boring, governing

497
00:24:27,182 --> 00:24:29,701
Speaker 2: is boring. We've just seemed to have. Everything has to

498
00:24:29,742 --> 00:24:32,621
Speaker 2: be entertaining now and everything has to be thirty seconds

499
00:24:33,022 --> 00:24:35,421
Speaker 2: in a moment. Does everyone in your group chats have

500
00:24:35,502 --> 00:24:39,101
Speaker 2: another group chat about the group chat? Maybe two or three? Yes,

501
00:24:39,182 --> 00:24:46,022
Speaker 2: we're talking about the Great DM contagion. I made a

502
00:24:46,061 --> 00:24:48,661
Speaker 2: new group chat last week. This is unusual.

503
00:24:48,782 --> 00:24:49,502
Speaker 1: It's not like you.

504
00:24:49,581 --> 00:24:52,342
Speaker 2: No, I'm not generally the instigator of group chats. I'm

505
00:24:52,381 --> 00:24:55,502
Speaker 2: generally the person who is added to them against my will.

506
00:24:56,502 --> 00:24:59,821
Speaker 2: Within three hours, that group chat had spawned another separate

507
00:24:59,861 --> 00:25:02,182
Speaker 2: group chat with two extra people in it. And then

508
00:25:02,182 --> 00:25:04,342
Speaker 2: there was obviously the direct chat with the person who

509
00:25:04,381 --> 00:25:06,581
Speaker 2: was the subject of the group chat in the first place.

510
00:25:06,581 --> 00:25:09,821
Speaker 2: So I had by Tuesday afternoon, I had three new

511
00:25:09,821 --> 00:25:13,101
Speaker 2: conversations going that I didn't have going on Monday, and

512
00:25:13,141 --> 00:25:16,141
Speaker 2: yet the same amount of hours in my day. The

513
00:25:16,222 --> 00:25:19,101
Speaker 2: Great group chat Contagion was the subject of a Guardian

514
00:25:19,141 --> 00:25:22,381
Speaker 2: column by Polly Hudson this week, who wrote, you can mute,

515
00:25:22,381 --> 00:25:24,901
Speaker 2: but you can never leave. Why have WhatsApp groups become

516
00:25:24,982 --> 00:25:28,142
Speaker 2: so stressful? And in it, she said, she gave this

517
00:25:28,222 --> 00:25:31,302
Speaker 2: example of how group chats just spawn more and more

518
00:25:31,341 --> 00:25:33,901
Speaker 2: group chats. A friend of mine has a group with

519
00:25:33,942 --> 00:25:36,902
Speaker 2: five moms from her daughter's class, and another whittled down

520
00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:39,742
Speaker 2: to four of them, then more with three, two and

521
00:25:39,782 --> 00:25:42,742
Speaker 2: one how she keeps track without the use of murder

522
00:25:42,782 --> 00:25:46,461
Speaker 2: investigation board with red strings pinned to photographs is genuinely

523
00:25:46,542 --> 00:25:49,662
Speaker 2: a mystery. And then, of course there is the very

524
00:25:49,702 --> 00:25:54,782
Speaker 2: particular anxiety of putting the wrong thing in the wrong chat.

525
00:25:55,182 --> 00:25:56,542
Speaker 2: I was trying to come up with a cool name

526
00:25:56,581 --> 00:26:00,821
Speaker 2: for it. I haven't really got one. Chat anxiety. I'm

527
00:26:00,901 --> 00:26:03,462
Speaker 2: not going to make that happen, Jesse. Why the chats

528
00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:06,861
Speaker 2: spawn chats spawn chats? And how the hell do we

529
00:26:06,901 --> 00:26:09,701
Speaker 2: feed and clothe ourselves with so much communication to be

530
00:26:09,742 --> 00:26:10,982
Speaker 2: attended to at all times.

531
00:26:11,381 --> 00:26:15,262
Speaker 3: Mine do not have three offshoots, which suggests to me

532
00:26:15,702 --> 00:26:19,701
Speaker 3: I'm not invited to them. So I am concerned that,

533
00:26:19,861 --> 00:26:24,022
Speaker 3: for example, our out loud WhatsApp that's all I got.

534
00:26:24,702 --> 00:26:26,502
Speaker 3: There is no other one. I feel like there could

535
00:26:26,502 --> 00:26:29,022
Speaker 3: be a Maya Holly. Maybe there's a Meya Holly, Amelia.

536
00:26:29,182 --> 00:26:31,581
Speaker 2: We have a group chat with the hosts, yeah, and

537
00:26:31,621 --> 00:26:33,701
Speaker 2: then we also have one with our ep ruth, so

538
00:26:33,782 --> 00:26:34,302
Speaker 2: that's two.

539
00:26:34,422 --> 00:26:36,181
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm just worried.

540
00:26:36,222 --> 00:26:37,902
Speaker 1: I just want to point out I'm not in it,

541
00:26:38,101 --> 00:26:39,101
Speaker 1: not even the prime.

542
00:26:41,302 --> 00:26:43,262
Speaker 2: We're gone already.

543
00:26:43,302 --> 00:26:46,381
Speaker 3: Amelia and m is maya homework where she sends really

544
00:26:46,422 --> 00:26:49,222
Speaker 3: obscure leaders, and then we feel guilty that we haven't

545
00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:52,702
Speaker 3: read them, and I go, oh wow, I'll read that. Look,

546
00:26:52,742 --> 00:26:55,581
Speaker 3: we talked about this at our live show a few

547
00:26:55,742 --> 00:26:59,862
Speaker 3: months ago, because this is a uniquely female phenomenon, as

548
00:26:59,901 --> 00:27:02,621
Speaker 3: I have discovered. I decided before our live show, I

549
00:27:02,661 --> 00:27:05,422
Speaker 3: was like, I'm gonna look at Luca's group chats because

550
00:27:05,462 --> 00:27:08,341
Speaker 3: I swear that man is not He doesn't have a

551
00:27:08,381 --> 00:27:11,142
Speaker 3: part time job group chatting, whereas I feel like I do.

552
00:27:11,942 --> 00:27:15,542
Speaker 3: And there are not four minute voice notes in Lucas

553
00:27:15,621 --> 00:27:18,262
Speaker 3: group chats like there are for mine. There are not poles,

554
00:27:18,341 --> 00:27:24,022
Speaker 3: There are not the enthusiastic performance of upcoming event, which

555
00:27:24,022 --> 00:27:26,701
Speaker 3: I feel like women need to do. There are not

556
00:27:27,101 --> 00:27:31,942
Speaker 3: the constant offshoots. They just they are so much less pressured,

557
00:27:32,022 --> 00:27:35,621
Speaker 3: Like women are the backbone of WhatsApp and Messenger and

558
00:27:35,661 --> 00:27:37,942
Speaker 3: all of our difference. Someone I feel like someone's making

559
00:27:37,942 --> 00:27:40,182
Speaker 3: money every time we make a new group chat. Someone

560
00:27:40,182 --> 00:27:42,782
Speaker 3: at WhatsApp is rubbing their hands together, going what would

561
00:27:42,782 --> 00:27:46,622
Speaker 3: we do about exactly right, exactly that he can use

562
00:27:46,621 --> 00:27:49,542
Speaker 3: for histtle enclave. But it's like women feel like they

563
00:27:49,581 --> 00:27:54,262
Speaker 3: need to water their group chats like little plants while

564
00:27:54,381 --> 00:27:57,022
Speaker 3: men are. When I went through Lucas group chats, I

565
00:27:57,022 --> 00:28:00,182
Speaker 3: would find like he'd send a TikTok and then someone

566
00:28:00,222 --> 00:28:02,901
Speaker 3: would say I don't get it and then never respond again.

567
00:28:04,101 --> 00:28:06,542
Speaker 3: There were maybe a pole that had nothing a twenty

568
00:28:06,621 --> 00:28:11,702
Speaker 3: seven second phone call, like there was just no trying

569
00:28:11,901 --> 00:28:13,941
Speaker 3: to the same degree that women are. Why do women

570
00:28:14,061 --> 00:28:18,461
Speaker 3: feel this pressure and this stress to be so actively

571
00:28:18,581 --> 00:28:20,781
Speaker 3: social in our group chats and then to make all

572
00:28:20,821 --> 00:28:21,421
Speaker 3: the offshoots.

573
00:28:21,422 --> 00:28:24,262
Speaker 1: There was a very funny Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where

574
00:28:24,302 --> 00:28:27,381
Speaker 1: Larry David was basically being schooled in the fact that

575
00:28:27,462 --> 00:28:31,141
Speaker 1: you have to heart or thumbs up messages that women

576
00:28:31,262 --> 00:28:34,061
Speaker 1: just routinely do. But he needed to be told, no,

577
00:28:34,182 --> 00:28:36,622
Speaker 1: you must acknowledge this important message where someone is telling

578
00:28:36,661 --> 00:28:38,342
Speaker 1: you they just got engaged or just had a baby,

579
00:28:38,382 --> 00:28:40,342
Speaker 1: you got to give it a heart. But I don't

580
00:28:40,342 --> 00:28:42,022
Speaker 1: think that's instinctive for a lot of men.

581
00:28:42,142 --> 00:28:44,062
Speaker 3: No, it's absolutely not. It's like they're not there. I

582
00:28:44,102 --> 00:28:45,622
Speaker 3: find often you set up a group chat, like with

583
00:28:45,661 --> 00:28:47,542
Speaker 3: a family, and then what you do is the next

584
00:28:47,622 --> 00:28:49,342
Speaker 3: day you make the group chat with just the women,

585
00:28:49,502 --> 00:28:51,302
Speaker 3: because why were the men even Yeah, like you don't

586
00:28:51,302 --> 00:28:52,142
Speaker 3: even keep them across.

587
00:28:52,302 --> 00:28:54,062
Speaker 2: I have a friend group like that, we have a

588
00:28:54,102 --> 00:28:55,862
Speaker 2: group chat for the friend group, and then we have

589
00:28:55,902 --> 00:28:58,221
Speaker 2: one with just the women in the friend group, because

590
00:28:58,342 --> 00:29:00,062
Speaker 2: I wonder if the men have one for just the

591
00:29:00,102 --> 00:29:00,501
Speaker 2: men in them.

592
00:29:00,582 --> 00:29:03,661
Speaker 1: They don't, I don't think, Holly. When you introduce this segment,

593
00:29:03,782 --> 00:29:07,702
Speaker 1: I admit I felt a little bit paranoid, because are

594
00:29:07,742 --> 00:29:10,262
Speaker 1: you saying that part of the group chat this morning

595
00:29:10,782 --> 00:29:13,902
Speaker 1: is about people essentially bitching about other people in the

596
00:29:13,942 --> 00:29:14,462
Speaker 1: group chat?

597
00:29:14,782 --> 00:29:17,302
Speaker 2: Not in my world, but of course, and of course not.

598
00:29:17,702 --> 00:29:21,022
Speaker 2: But I think that yes, certainly, even if it's not bitching.

599
00:29:21,582 --> 00:29:24,022
Speaker 2: The thing about big group chats, so say, think about

600
00:29:24,022 --> 00:29:26,981
Speaker 2: the classic one, which might be the school group or

601
00:29:26,982 --> 00:29:29,421
Speaker 2: the football team you know, for parents, right this is,

602
00:29:30,182 --> 00:29:35,422
Speaker 2: or in a non parent environment, the one for somebody's NDU, birthday, dinner, whatever,

603
00:29:35,462 --> 00:29:37,102
Speaker 2: and like, lots of people are in there, and some

604
00:29:37,142 --> 00:29:39,502
Speaker 2: people you know and some people you don't, and so

605
00:29:39,661 --> 00:29:42,302
Speaker 2: within that group there are messages that are for everyone,

606
00:29:42,422 --> 00:29:44,102
Speaker 2: and then there's a little bit of chat you need

607
00:29:44,142 --> 00:29:45,981
Speaker 2: to have on the side, not necessarily about them. But

608
00:29:46,022 --> 00:29:47,782
Speaker 2: say when I had a group chat going for my

609
00:29:47,822 --> 00:29:51,302
Speaker 2: friend's fiftieth she had fifty people in that not all

610
00:29:51,302 --> 00:29:52,782
Speaker 2: of them needed to be weighing in on what the

611
00:29:52,782 --> 00:29:55,181
Speaker 2: present should be, but like a core group did so,

612
00:29:55,222 --> 00:29:57,902
Speaker 2: then we needed another group chat for that see another

613
00:29:57,902 --> 00:29:59,942
Speaker 2: the things that happened in that had to be reported

614
00:29:59,982 --> 00:30:02,142
Speaker 2: back in the big one, and then you kin'd ever

615
00:30:02,262 --> 00:30:04,822
Speaker 2: leave that group even though the fiftieth birthday was six

616
00:30:04,862 --> 00:30:06,741
Speaker 2: months ago, because it seems a bit rude.

617
00:30:06,862 --> 00:30:08,942
Speaker 3: I've got group chats that are quite big, like let's

618
00:30:08,942 --> 00:30:11,021
Speaker 3: say they've got twent people in them, and then I

619
00:30:11,062 --> 00:30:14,022
Speaker 3: see that four of those people went to dinner last week,

620
00:30:14,182 --> 00:30:16,262
Speaker 3: and I go okay. At some point the new group

621
00:30:16,342 --> 00:30:19,222
Speaker 3: chat was warned and it was decided that these four

622
00:30:19,702 --> 00:30:23,302
Speaker 3: would make this particular dinner arrangement. How did I not

623
00:30:23,382 --> 00:30:23,862
Speaker 3: make the cup?

624
00:30:23,982 --> 00:30:26,501
Speaker 1: This happened to me recently. I have a group of

625
00:30:26,542 --> 00:30:30,342
Speaker 1: friends from high school and they decided to go on

626
00:30:30,382 --> 00:30:32,741
Speaker 1: a trip to Melbourne together. But it was at the

627
00:30:32,782 --> 00:30:35,302
Speaker 1: time when I was out of the country. Unclear whether

628
00:30:35,342 --> 00:30:39,021
Speaker 1: they decided or not, but I respectfully asked them to

629
00:30:39,102 --> 00:30:42,222
Speaker 1: take the planning for the Melbourne trip to another chat. Yes,

630
00:30:42,262 --> 00:30:44,222
Speaker 1: start a new chat, because I don't want to hear

631
00:30:44,262 --> 00:30:47,661
Speaker 1: how excited you all are about getting the massages at

632
00:30:47,702 --> 00:30:50,142
Speaker 1: the hotel. Did you ask them to do going to dinner.

633
00:30:50,302 --> 00:30:51,941
Speaker 2: Did you ask them to do that in the group?

634
00:30:52,102 --> 00:30:54,181
Speaker 2: I did so in the group, you said.

635
00:30:54,142 --> 00:30:55,982
Speaker 1: Take it elsewhere, ladies get a room.

636
00:30:56,302 --> 00:30:57,982
Speaker 2: Get a room.

637
00:30:58,422 --> 00:31:02,582
Speaker 1: And now I think they're just over there because the

638
00:31:03,742 --> 00:31:06,662
Speaker 1: there's new in jokes and they're all just making the in.

639
00:31:06,661 --> 00:31:11,222
Speaker 2: Jokes and from the trip. The hour spent last week

640
00:31:11,462 --> 00:31:13,461
Speaker 2: for a show that I'm doing for mid which is

641
00:31:13,582 --> 00:31:16,542
Speaker 2: my other podcast that has group chats too, Jesse, I

642
00:31:16,742 --> 00:31:20,181
Speaker 2: asked people for friendship dilemmas, and one lady sent me

643
00:31:20,182 --> 00:31:22,982
Speaker 2: a friendship dilemma that she was very angry that one

644
00:31:22,982 --> 00:31:25,102
Speaker 2: of her friends in her group chats never replies in

645
00:31:25,102 --> 00:31:28,542
Speaker 2: a timely fashion and she was making her feel like

646
00:31:28,622 --> 00:31:31,221
Speaker 2: she didn't care about her, so that she'd say she

647
00:31:31,302 --> 00:31:34,221
Speaker 2: might put some personal news in there, like quite serious

648
00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:36,421
Speaker 2: personal news, and the other people would all jump in

649
00:31:36,462 --> 00:31:38,702
Speaker 2: with like, oh, I'm so sorry, or I hope you're

650
00:31:38,742 --> 00:31:42,701
Speaker 2: okay or whatever, but this one person yes thefations of

651
00:31:42,902 --> 00:31:44,302
Speaker 2: but then I think that's me.

652
00:31:44,582 --> 00:31:46,982
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, so what advice did you give? I just relax.

653
00:31:47,382 --> 00:31:51,181
Speaker 2: My advice was everybody's got a different communication rhythm. But

654
00:31:51,262 --> 00:31:53,462
Speaker 2: this woman was very upset about it, As she said

655
00:31:53,502 --> 00:31:56,782
Speaker 2: timely fashion several times, So I just would like us

656
00:31:56,822 --> 00:31:58,461
Speaker 2: to clarify what a timely fashion is.

657
00:31:58,742 --> 00:32:01,661
Speaker 3: I would literally give someone three or four days. I

658
00:32:01,742 --> 00:32:03,622
Speaker 3: reckon when we're over a week, it's like, Okay, you

659
00:32:03,661 --> 00:32:05,461
Speaker 3: saw it and you forgot to reply. And sometimes that

660
00:32:05,502 --> 00:32:07,782
Speaker 3: does get offensive and you feel especially when you know

661
00:32:07,822 --> 00:32:09,382
Speaker 3: that four day.

662
00:32:09,782 --> 00:32:12,421
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Everyone has their phone at all times, and

663
00:32:12,462 --> 00:32:14,902
Speaker 1: I know you're taking them to the toilet. No, three

664
00:32:14,982 --> 00:32:22,102
Speaker 1: or four hours is what I expect.

665
00:32:23,462 --> 00:32:27,102
Speaker 2: The first cut of Wuthering Heights, the latest movie adaptation

666
00:32:27,222 --> 00:32:31,022
Speaker 2: of Emily Bronte's gothic masterpiece, has reportedly been shown to

667
00:32:31,062 --> 00:32:34,661
Speaker 2: a test audience in Dallas, Texas. Would you like a

668
00:32:34,661 --> 00:32:37,182
Speaker 2: sneak peek? And you don't get to say no, yep,

669
00:32:37,342 --> 00:32:38,222
Speaker 2: because I know you might.

670
00:32:38,302 --> 00:32:40,382
Speaker 3: Since when do we go to test audiences and then

671
00:32:40,502 --> 00:32:41,062
Speaker 3: get leaks?

672
00:32:41,142 --> 00:32:43,262
Speaker 2: Well, this is the thing, so lots and lots of

673
00:32:43,262 --> 00:32:46,502
Speaker 2: movies are tested. Obviously they test big movies. But it

674
00:32:46,582 --> 00:32:48,702
Speaker 2: seems to be a bit new that now there it's

675
00:32:48,742 --> 00:32:51,221
Speaker 2: all leaking out. I read all about this on a

676
00:32:51,222 --> 00:32:53,582
Speaker 2: blog called World of Real. I don't even know how

677
00:32:53,622 --> 00:32:57,022
Speaker 2: real World of Reel is, but they apparently interviewed all

678
00:32:57,102 --> 00:32:59,062
Speaker 2: the people who came out of the test screen.

679
00:32:59,502 --> 00:33:02,102
Speaker 3: I feel like you would have signed some sort of

680
00:33:02,502 --> 00:33:03,902
Speaker 3: non disclosure thing, but.

681
00:33:03,982 --> 00:33:06,862
Speaker 2: Okay, they weren't named. This is what Word of Reel reported.

682
00:33:07,182 --> 00:33:10,181
Speaker 2: Audience reaction inside the theater was largely mex with some

683
00:33:10,262 --> 00:33:12,221
Speaker 2: visible well maybe they were in there, maybe World of

684
00:33:12,262 --> 00:33:16,622
Speaker 2: Reel were in there, with some visible restlessness, while others

685
00:33:16,622 --> 00:33:19,702
Speaker 2: were won over. The film, described by one attendee as

686
00:33:19,742 --> 00:33:25,701
Speaker 2: aggressively provocative and tonally abrasive, leans hard into Ferinelle's now

687
00:33:25,742 --> 00:33:29,262
Speaker 2: familiar brand of stylized depravity. If you're wondering how depraved,

688
00:33:29,661 --> 00:33:31,782
Speaker 2: I apologize for what I'm about to say, or rather

689
00:33:31,822 --> 00:33:34,822
Speaker 2: for what World of Reel said, And if you have

690
00:33:34,862 --> 00:33:37,941
Speaker 2: a little around you, you might just really need to

691
00:33:37,942 --> 00:33:40,542
Speaker 2: press pause. But anyway, grown ups, stay with.

692
00:33:40,462 --> 00:33:44,782
Speaker 3: Me, because Emerald Fanell is the criti director, and she

693
00:33:44,902 --> 00:33:47,582
Speaker 3: did Saltburn, and she did Promising Young Woman.

694
00:33:47,822 --> 00:33:51,022
Speaker 2: Yes, and Saltburn was a wonderful film in many levels,

695
00:33:51,062 --> 00:33:52,542
Speaker 2: but all anyone ever wants to talk about her the

696
00:33:52,622 --> 00:33:53,622
Speaker 2: really really rude bits.

697
00:33:53,661 --> 00:33:54,781
Speaker 1: Yeah.

698
00:33:54,862 --> 00:33:58,182
Speaker 2: The film opens with a public hanging that quickly descends

699
00:33:58,222 --> 00:34:03,462
Speaker 2: into grotesque absurdity as the condemned man ejaculates mid execution,

700
00:34:03,702 --> 00:34:07,662
Speaker 2: sending the onlooking crowd into a kind of orgiastic frenzy.

701
00:34:08,542 --> 00:34:11,942
Speaker 2: A none even fondles. The corpse is visible erect.

702
00:34:12,142 --> 00:34:14,862
Speaker 1: World of Reel had fun with that word fondles. I

703
00:34:15,142 --> 00:34:18,741
Speaker 1: really did, I seel.

704
00:34:17,862 --> 00:34:19,622
Speaker 2: And it is one of my favorite books. So why

705
00:34:19,622 --> 00:34:24,262
Speaker 2: don't I remember the nun and the erection in Weathering Heights?

706
00:34:24,582 --> 00:34:27,861
Speaker 1: Oh look, I really missed the days when all we

707
00:34:27,942 --> 00:34:30,741
Speaker 1: knew about this Wuthering Heights was that Margot Robbie was

708
00:34:30,781 --> 00:34:33,861
Speaker 1: wearing a lovely, slightly eighty styled wedding dress in it.

709
00:34:33,902 --> 00:34:36,982
Speaker 1: Remember those blurry picks. That's all we knew, and it

710
00:34:37,102 --> 00:34:40,301
Speaker 1: sounded promising. And now I just feel like we know

711
00:34:40,462 --> 00:34:43,102
Speaker 1: too much about movies before they come out.

712
00:34:43,382 --> 00:34:47,662
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I fundamentally don't believe in pre promotion of anything.

713
00:34:48,022 --> 00:34:50,661
Speaker 3: I think hype is finite, and if you start the

714
00:34:50,741 --> 00:34:53,302
Speaker 3: hype too early, by the time we drop the film,

715
00:34:53,701 --> 00:34:55,262
Speaker 3: I'm over it and I have fatigue.

716
00:34:55,302 --> 00:34:58,022
Speaker 1: But do your book publicists agree with that? Good question?

717
00:34:58,142 --> 00:35:00,462
Speaker 3: There's a lead up where you kind of go, book

718
00:35:00,542 --> 00:35:02,661
Speaker 3: is coming, But I would say that you can go

719
00:35:02,701 --> 00:35:06,102
Speaker 3: book is coming too many times, and it's like, stop

720
00:35:06,142 --> 00:35:07,862
Speaker 3: telling me that until I can buy the book.

721
00:35:07,982 --> 00:35:11,262
Speaker 2: You really go hard on the book promotion wants pre order.

722
00:35:11,142 --> 00:35:13,342
Speaker 3: Zed, Yeah, when someone can do it the same.

723
00:35:13,181 --> 00:35:15,142
Speaker 2: Time, you need to give them action. The thing that's

724
00:35:15,181 --> 00:35:17,502
Speaker 2: interesting about this is you're right, Jesse, because the other

725
00:35:17,542 --> 00:35:19,382
Speaker 2: thing that might happen, and this is also happening at

726
00:35:19,422 --> 00:35:21,702
Speaker 2: the minute in the culture with the Devil with different

727
00:35:21,741 --> 00:35:24,342
Speaker 2: different I don't think there are any nuns erections fondling

728
00:35:24,342 --> 00:35:29,062
Speaker 2: going on in that. But we've all seen We've all

729
00:35:29,102 --> 00:35:31,582
Speaker 2: seen the photos or I imagine we have, and in

730
00:35:31,622 --> 00:35:35,461
Speaker 2: some cases video of Anne Hathaway and our very own

731
00:35:35,582 --> 00:35:38,502
Speaker 2: Patrick Brammel walking down the street and she's twirling around

732
00:35:38,502 --> 00:35:40,742
Speaker 2: a lampers and he's like looking very sharp and skinny

733
00:35:40,741 --> 00:35:43,301
Speaker 2: in a suit. Like I already feel I know too

734
00:35:43,382 --> 00:35:45,661
Speaker 2: much about the plot of that movie. Is one of

735
00:35:45,661 --> 00:35:49,902
Speaker 2: the dangers of this much excitement preprint emotion, for example,

736
00:35:49,902 --> 00:35:51,542
Speaker 2: that I've already made my mind up that I don't

737
00:35:51,542 --> 00:35:53,301
Speaker 2: want to go and see Wuthering Heights by the time

738
00:35:53,302 --> 00:35:53,861
Speaker 2: it comes out.

739
00:35:54,022 --> 00:35:56,502
Speaker 1: Oh, we know way too much about Devil was prior

740
00:35:56,502 --> 00:35:58,381
Speaker 1: to too. Do you know we know the code name

741
00:35:58,422 --> 00:36:00,822
Speaker 1: that they're using the movie on the New York sets?

742
00:36:00,862 --> 00:36:04,462
Speaker 1: What's Cerulean, which is brilliant, referring, of course, to the

743
00:36:04,462 --> 00:36:07,102
Speaker 1: famous scene in the first one where Meryl Streep's character

744
00:36:07,221 --> 00:36:09,462
Speaker 1: talks about how she sets the tone and picks the

745
00:36:09,582 --> 00:36:12,181
Speaker 1: colors for the next season. I do think movies need

746
00:36:12,221 --> 00:36:13,942
Speaker 1: a bit of mystery. I heard it said once that

747
00:36:14,102 --> 00:36:17,422
Speaker 1: good movie stars retain a sense of intrigue, and that's

748
00:36:17,502 --> 00:36:19,741
Speaker 1: why you put on your hard pants and you go

749
00:36:19,781 --> 00:36:21,542
Speaker 1: and pay to go to the movies to see a

750
00:36:21,542 --> 00:36:23,862
Speaker 1: movie star, because you want more of them than you're getting.

751
00:36:24,142 --> 00:36:27,221
Speaker 1: And they're always having to toe this line between reminding

752
00:36:27,221 --> 00:36:30,381
Speaker 1: you that they exist and not getting too overexposive. There's

753
00:36:30,382 --> 00:36:33,181
Speaker 1: no mystery, and the quintessential movie star is, of course

754
00:36:33,221 --> 00:36:35,822
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise. And Tom Cruise is a movie star because

755
00:36:35,822 --> 00:36:39,622
Speaker 1: we literally don't know where he lives. It might be England,

756
00:36:39,822 --> 00:36:40,902
Speaker 1: we don't know what it could be.

757
00:36:41,142 --> 00:36:44,142
Speaker 3: Us, it could be And I think that perhaps they've

758
00:36:44,181 --> 00:36:46,781
Speaker 3: always taken pictures on set, right, that's not new. What's

759
00:36:46,822 --> 00:36:48,942
Speaker 3: new is the ubiquity of those images is that I

760
00:36:49,022 --> 00:36:52,301
Speaker 3: can't go through my feed. I actually do not care

761
00:36:52,382 --> 00:36:55,261
Speaker 3: about the Devil Wears Prada two spot. I don't care,

762
00:36:55,542 --> 00:36:58,102
Speaker 3: not even about Patrick Bramle, not really. And I've been

763
00:36:58,181 --> 00:37:03,462
Speaker 3: bombarded with images and actually spoilers that they've managed to

764
00:37:03,502 --> 00:37:05,341
Speaker 3: gauge through all of it, but by the time it

765
00:37:05,342 --> 00:37:08,181
Speaker 3: comes out, it's just like, where's the interest?

766
00:37:08,542 --> 00:37:15,222
Speaker 1: Are you more interested in? The is the best advertisement

767
00:37:15,781 --> 00:37:18,022
Speaker 1: for a film I have heard in a long time,

768
00:37:18,701 --> 00:37:19,661
Speaker 1: because there is not.

769
00:37:19,781 --> 00:37:22,822
Speaker 3: Much we haven't seen that I haven't seen.

770
00:37:22,982 --> 00:37:26,542
Speaker 2: The World of Reel went on to be like, they

771
00:37:26,622 --> 00:37:28,901
Speaker 2: seem to have great chemistry, these actors they're talking about

772
00:37:28,942 --> 00:37:32,022
Speaker 2: Jacob A Laudie and Margot Robbie obviously, but the characters

773
00:37:32,062 --> 00:37:35,661
Speaker 2: are so cold and unlikable. Again, I do remember that

774
00:37:35,781 --> 00:37:37,022
Speaker 2: in the book I Do.

775
00:37:37,622 --> 00:37:39,862
Speaker 1: The World of Reel has this. This is their watergate.

776
00:37:41,142 --> 00:37:44,262
Speaker 2: My favorite thing about this whole conversation has been Amelia saying,

777
00:37:44,542 --> 00:37:48,821
Speaker 2: putting on your hard pants, Oh your hard pants, the

778
00:37:48,862 --> 00:37:50,502
Speaker 2: ones that don't have a stretchy.

779
00:37:50,062 --> 00:37:55,942
Speaker 3: Waste to the movies all the time. After the break,

780
00:37:56,062 --> 00:38:00,261
Speaker 3: the surprising reason that people are choosing not to get divorced.

781
00:38:00,342 --> 00:38:04,102
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

782
00:38:04,142 --> 00:38:08,181
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

783
00:38:08,221 --> 00:38:09,901
Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your is

784
00:38:10,221 --> 00:38:12,982
Speaker 2: five days a week and a huge thank you to

785
00:38:13,142 --> 00:38:14,781
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

786
00:38:22,542 --> 00:38:26,382
Speaker 3: Australia's divorce right is the lowest it's been in fifty years.

787
00:38:26,462 --> 00:38:29,382
Speaker 3: And the question I have is why do people just

788
00:38:29,422 --> 00:38:30,221
Speaker 3: love each other more?

789
00:38:30,382 --> 00:38:31,022
Speaker 1: That's a question.

790
00:38:32,181 --> 00:38:34,302
Speaker 3: If you think that it is because we are somehow

791
00:38:34,302 --> 00:38:37,582
Speaker 3: better at relationships, or that ever since Amelia and I

792
00:38:37,622 --> 00:38:40,221
Speaker 3: got married the love is stronger, you would be very,

793
00:38:40,302 --> 00:38:44,741
Speaker 3: very wrong. One significant factor is the cost of divorcing.

794
00:38:44,902 --> 00:38:49,102
Speaker 3: So a cheap marriage dissolution starts upwards of ten thousand dollars.

795
00:38:49,302 --> 00:38:51,582
Speaker 1: Really, I thought you could just do it online at

796
00:38:51,622 --> 00:38:52,381
Speaker 1: divorce dot com.

797
00:38:52,582 --> 00:38:53,982
Speaker 3: I actually did too, I didn't know it.

798
00:38:54,582 --> 00:38:57,301
Speaker 2: It's also just all the knock on. And then also

799
00:38:57,342 --> 00:39:00,582
Speaker 2: the other big financial consideration is obviously for a great

800
00:39:00,822 --> 00:39:05,022
Speaker 2: number of families, imagine in this economy harving your income

801
00:39:05,582 --> 00:39:08,142
Speaker 2: and yet still having all the same expenses. Well, actually

802
00:39:08,181 --> 00:39:12,622
Speaker 2: having expensive business, Well that's the most expensive of all

803
00:39:12,902 --> 00:39:15,301
Speaker 2: exactly now have to pay for two months yet, ceter

804
00:39:15,502 --> 00:39:16,942
Speaker 2: So it's an expensive business.

805
00:39:16,701 --> 00:39:19,301
Speaker 3: And it's prohibitive for a lot of couples. So one

806
00:39:19,342 --> 00:39:22,182
Speaker 3: growing trend is living a part together, where a couple

807
00:39:22,462 --> 00:39:24,622
Speaker 3: live separately but in the same house, often for the

808
00:39:24,661 --> 00:39:27,542
Speaker 3: sake of the children and Now, the reason divorce is

809
00:39:27,582 --> 00:39:31,261
Speaker 3: lower is because of a practice called relationship testing prior

810
00:39:31,302 --> 00:39:35,342
Speaker 3: to marriage. So this is about cohabiting before marriage, where

811
00:39:35,502 --> 00:39:38,221
Speaker 3: you might live together for five or ten years. Therefore

812
00:39:38,422 --> 00:39:41,701
Speaker 3: you know whether you live well together, which appears to

813
00:39:41,862 --> 00:39:47,701
Speaker 3: lead to greater success. Jnity really, Charlie Kerr, Oh no.

814
00:39:47,582 --> 00:39:47,982
Speaker 2: Why not?

815
00:39:48,342 --> 00:39:51,781
Speaker 1: Well, I did not live with my partner before marriage.

816
00:39:51,862 --> 00:39:53,821
Speaker 1: Now that could have had something to do with the

817
00:39:53,862 --> 00:39:56,661
Speaker 1: fact that he was in Washington, DC and I was

818
00:39:56,701 --> 00:39:59,182
Speaker 1: in Sydney. But I choose to lean into the idea

819
00:39:59,181 --> 00:39:59,702
Speaker 1: of purity.

820
00:39:59,701 --> 00:40:02,741
Speaker 3: That's why Dean Wells would be like, you are a

821
00:40:02,781 --> 00:40:03,622
Speaker 3: high status woman.

822
00:40:04,022 --> 00:40:06,942
Speaker 2: This is the most shocking thing I've learned about Amelia.

823
00:40:07,062 --> 00:40:10,261
Speaker 1: Like this ever saw me in hard pants until if

824
00:40:10,342 --> 00:40:12,741
Speaker 1: to be all married and then I pulled out my

825
00:40:12,781 --> 00:40:14,462
Speaker 1: tax fuits. Oh my god.

826
00:40:14,502 --> 00:40:18,341
Speaker 2: It was the soft pan, big reveal. I get the

827
00:40:18,422 --> 00:40:20,821
Speaker 2: logistics of that. But you could have still when you

828
00:40:20,902 --> 00:40:23,102
Speaker 2: finally did merge your lives, you could have done that

829
00:40:23,342 --> 00:40:26,821
Speaker 2: with cohabitation. Had you cohabited before. And so you're I know,

830
00:40:26,862 --> 00:40:29,701
Speaker 2: I'm getting very personal. I do hope cohabited before, and

831
00:40:29,741 --> 00:40:31,622
Speaker 2: that's why you were like, no, put a ring on it.

832
00:40:31,862 --> 00:40:34,062
Speaker 1: The answer to that is in two parts. Yes, I

833
00:40:34,102 --> 00:40:38,062
Speaker 1: had cohabited. That's a hard word to say, isn't it.

834
00:40:38,181 --> 00:40:39,901
Speaker 1: That's really why I didn't you. It's too hard to

835
00:40:39,902 --> 00:40:43,062
Speaker 1: pronounce I had. But also, well, you know, I was

836
00:40:43,062 --> 00:40:45,102
Speaker 1: in my thirties. I was ready to get on with it.

837
00:40:45,542 --> 00:40:48,622
Speaker 2: I just aw nothing that such a romantic notion to

838
00:40:48,661 --> 00:40:51,501
Speaker 2: me that you'd go. So let's jump straight in.

839
00:40:51,502 --> 00:40:54,542
Speaker 1: Tiny bit of condescension there, I'll take it. I'll take it.

840
00:40:54,661 --> 00:40:55,502
Speaker 1: I promise not.

841
00:40:55,902 --> 00:40:59,062
Speaker 2: I just mean more, you know, as Jesse's saying, it's

842
00:40:59,302 --> 00:40:59,862
Speaker 2: very common.

843
00:40:59,902 --> 00:41:00,022
Speaker 1: Now.

844
00:41:00,062 --> 00:41:01,982
Speaker 2: I don't know what the stats are exactly, because obviously

845
00:41:02,062 --> 00:41:04,781
Speaker 2: it changes with cultural you know, all kinds of cultural things.

846
00:41:05,062 --> 00:41:08,862
Speaker 2: But it just seems like a very romantic idea.

847
00:41:08,942 --> 00:41:09,781
Speaker 1: Let's jump it's.

848
00:41:09,701 --> 00:41:12,542
Speaker 2: Right in, no try before you buy all that stuff.

849
00:41:12,542 --> 00:41:14,102
Speaker 2: I am impressed. I promise I'm not gone.

850
00:41:14,102 --> 00:41:16,502
Speaker 3: Because that's that's the other stat as well, is that

851
00:41:16,542 --> 00:41:20,301
Speaker 3: people are getting married later, which yes, yeah, often means

852
00:41:20,302 --> 00:41:22,861
Speaker 3: that they've had relationships before, or they've had the opportunity

853
00:41:22,902 --> 00:41:27,661
Speaker 3: to live with each other. The institution has evolved and

854
00:41:28,261 --> 00:41:30,902
Speaker 3: adapted in a way that, say, in the nineteen seventies,

855
00:41:30,942 --> 00:41:35,381
Speaker 3: you might not have thought because no fault divorce came out,

856
00:41:35,422 --> 00:41:37,542
Speaker 3: and the marriage rate, we should say as well, has

857
00:41:37,582 --> 00:41:40,821
Speaker 3: halved since nineteen seventy one, meaning that there are also

858
00:41:40,942 --> 00:41:45,982
Speaker 3: less divorces because there are less marriages. Holly does marriage appeal.

859
00:41:46,062 --> 00:41:49,741
Speaker 2: Yet, one way to not get divorced is to not

860
00:41:49,781 --> 00:41:51,182
Speaker 2: get married in the first place.

861
00:41:51,542 --> 00:41:54,062
Speaker 3: Life Life, you heard it here first.

862
00:41:53,902 --> 00:41:57,782
Speaker 2: Yes, because obviously I'm the opposite of Amelia in this regard,

863
00:41:57,781 --> 00:41:59,422
Speaker 2: in that my partner and I've been living together for

864
00:41:59,462 --> 00:42:00,462
Speaker 2: twenty years.

865
00:42:01,221 --> 00:42:03,262
Speaker 1: If you're ready.

866
00:42:04,221 --> 00:42:07,821
Speaker 2: From the beginning and on once started that way, I

867
00:42:07,862 --> 00:42:10,782
Speaker 2: think it's really interesting because I'm seeing this being reported

868
00:42:10,822 --> 00:42:13,502
Speaker 2: around a lot as a cause for great celebration, and

869
00:42:13,542 --> 00:42:17,182
Speaker 2: of course it is if it's sparing anyone heartache, pain,

870
00:42:17,822 --> 00:42:21,022
Speaker 2: you know, the level of disruption, economic hardship exactly, and

871
00:42:21,062 --> 00:42:23,542
Speaker 2: all of the things that come often but not always

872
00:42:23,622 --> 00:42:26,542
Speaker 2: come from divorce. But divorce rates themselves are a bit

873
00:42:26,582 --> 00:42:28,941
Speaker 2: of a blunt measure, as you've already said, Jesse, when

874
00:42:28,942 --> 00:42:31,902
Speaker 2: you're spelling out these stats, because they don't necessarily reflect

875
00:42:32,022 --> 00:42:35,822
Speaker 2: happiness or success like a successful marriage. You know, commas

876
00:42:35,862 --> 00:42:37,542
Speaker 2: like I don't know if you listened to the No

877
00:42:37,661 --> 00:42:39,661
Speaker 2: Filter with Sally Hepworth last week.

878
00:42:39,781 --> 00:42:40,661
Speaker 1: Soo yeah.

879
00:42:40,701 --> 00:42:44,062
Speaker 2: So Sally Hepworth obviously one of Australia's most successful fiction

880
00:42:44,261 --> 00:42:47,181
Speaker 2: authors New York Times bestseller, She's got a book coming

881
00:42:47,221 --> 00:42:49,062
Speaker 2: out soon, but she went on No Filter to talk

882
00:42:49,062 --> 00:42:51,221
Speaker 2: to Kate Langbert, but not really about her book, but

883
00:42:51,302 --> 00:42:54,821
Speaker 2: about her divorce. And it was a brilliant conversation because

884
00:42:54,822 --> 00:42:58,102
Speaker 2: it was very respectful. It wasn't kind of sledging anyone.

885
00:42:58,422 --> 00:43:01,221
Speaker 2: But she did say, going through what she's gone through

886
00:43:01,261 --> 00:43:04,142
Speaker 2: after being married for well over a decade, three kids,

887
00:43:04,741 --> 00:43:07,262
Speaker 2: divorce was the hardest thing that she has ever happened

888
00:43:07,261 --> 00:43:09,902
Speaker 2: to her in her life. She talked about how canmpletely

889
00:43:09,902 --> 00:43:13,582
Speaker 2: devastating it was, and that it's changed her view of marriage,

890
00:43:13,701 --> 00:43:16,942
Speaker 2: and she said, now I look around at people's marriages,

891
00:43:16,982 --> 00:43:18,902
Speaker 2: and obviously she's the caveat as you never know, but

892
00:43:18,982 --> 00:43:21,941
Speaker 2: she said, whose marriage would you want? And she looks

893
00:43:21,982 --> 00:43:23,661
Speaker 2: around and goes, oh, like I.

894
00:43:23,582 --> 00:43:25,422
Speaker 3: Could think that made me so depressed.

895
00:43:25,502 --> 00:43:27,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, She's like, I could think of like one or

896
00:43:27,382 --> 00:43:29,781
Speaker 2: two of So this is what I mean when I

897
00:43:29,822 --> 00:43:31,622
Speaker 2: say I think the divorced stat in itself is a

898
00:43:31,661 --> 00:43:33,741
Speaker 2: blunt measure because it doesn't necessarily mean that all the

899
00:43:33,781 --> 00:43:37,862
Speaker 2: people who are not getting divorced a happy, healthy, harmonious whatever.

900
00:43:38,422 --> 00:43:41,102
Speaker 2: And also I think that in the same way we

901
00:43:41,142 --> 00:43:43,301
Speaker 2: have many more choices about how to live together now,

902
00:43:43,302 --> 00:43:45,542
Speaker 2: we also have many more choices and how to separate.

903
00:43:45,661 --> 00:43:49,062
Speaker 2: So I know lots of people who've separated but haven't divorced,

904
00:43:49,181 --> 00:43:51,622
Speaker 2: you know, and they may be separated for five to

905
00:43:51,622 --> 00:43:53,181
Speaker 2: ten years. There are all different ways of doing it.

906
00:43:53,221 --> 00:43:56,461
Speaker 2: So just the divorce stat in itself, I'm not sure

907
00:43:56,502 --> 00:43:58,941
Speaker 2: if it tells us that we're getting better at love.

908
00:43:59,062 --> 00:43:59,821
Speaker 2: Do you think it does?

909
00:43:59,982 --> 00:44:02,022
Speaker 1: No. I think that's a really good point, and I

910
00:44:02,062 --> 00:44:04,342
Speaker 1: picked up on that in that conversation too. That idea

911
00:44:04,382 --> 00:44:07,622
Speaker 1: of the divorce almost took her by surprise, how hard

912
00:44:07,661 --> 00:44:11,062
Speaker 1: it was and how isolating it was. And it reminded

913
00:44:11,102 --> 00:44:14,822
Speaker 1: me of two divorce memoirs that have come out pretty recently.

914
00:44:15,342 --> 00:44:18,742
Speaker 1: One is Leslie Jamison's Splinters, and the other is Sarah

915
00:44:18,781 --> 00:44:21,542
Speaker 1: Manguso's book Liars, which is pitched as a novel, but

916
00:44:21,582 --> 00:44:24,741
Speaker 1: it's pretty clearly a memoir about her divorce. Both these

917
00:44:24,741 --> 00:44:27,741
Speaker 1: women were very successful writers, just like Sally Hepworth, who

918
00:44:27,822 --> 00:44:31,021
Speaker 1: traveled the world and who had written about love many

919
00:44:31,062 --> 00:44:34,381
Speaker 1: times in their professional life. And both of them highlighted

920
00:44:34,462 --> 00:44:38,022
Speaker 1: how isolating it was to go through a divorce because

921
00:44:38,062 --> 00:44:40,702
Speaker 1: I guess because it is now less common in certainly

922
00:44:40,822 --> 00:44:44,822
Speaker 1: certain social millieres. They found that their friends withdrew from them,

923
00:44:44,982 --> 00:44:47,701
Speaker 1: and that there was a sense that divorce was contagious,

924
00:44:47,781 --> 00:44:50,781
Speaker 1: that if their friends gave them too much support, or

925
00:44:50,862 --> 00:44:53,422
Speaker 1: if they let their friends in too close during that chapter,

926
00:44:53,542 --> 00:44:56,502
Speaker 1: their friends were worried they would somehow catch the divorce.

927
00:44:57,261 --> 00:44:59,701
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I looked into this and yes,

928
00:44:59,741 --> 00:45:02,822
Speaker 1: divorce is a bit contagious, it turns out in social groups,

929
00:45:02,822 --> 00:45:05,422
Speaker 1: but so is marriage. And there's this phrase, the marriage

930
00:45:05,462 --> 00:45:08,062
Speaker 1: bug that means that you're more likely to get married

931
00:45:08,102 --> 00:45:10,742
Speaker 1: if people around you are getting married. And what's interesting

932
00:45:10,781 --> 00:45:14,182
Speaker 1: is that among young Australians there has been a trend

933
00:45:14,221 --> 00:45:17,022
Speaker 1: towards getting married a little bit earlier than we might expect,

934
00:45:17,102 --> 00:45:20,022
Speaker 1: and that's because they think it's sort of this contagious element.

935
00:45:20,181 --> 00:45:22,661
Speaker 1: Marriage is contagious and divorce is contagious.

936
00:45:22,822 --> 00:45:25,781
Speaker 3: I wondered that in the Sally No Filter interview, and

937
00:45:25,822 --> 00:45:28,502
Speaker 3: I wondered if it was a life staged thing when

938
00:45:28,502 --> 00:45:30,981
Speaker 3: she said you look around and go whose marriage would

939
00:45:31,022 --> 00:45:33,142
Speaker 3: I want? Does that ring true to either of you.

940
00:45:33,462 --> 00:45:35,062
Speaker 3: Do you think that there's yes.

941
00:45:35,781 --> 00:45:38,502
Speaker 2: The thing is that the more you do know about

942
00:45:38,502 --> 00:45:41,221
Speaker 2: other people's relationships at and again, I don't want to

943
00:45:41,261 --> 00:45:43,622
Speaker 2: sound like a cynic, because I'm genuinely not like I

944
00:45:44,102 --> 00:45:46,941
Speaker 2: am a romantic in lots of ways, but I think

945
00:45:46,982 --> 00:45:50,942
Speaker 2: that we set ourselves an impossible target with marriage. We

946
00:45:51,022 --> 00:45:54,582
Speaker 2: set ourselves an impossible target in long term relationships that

947
00:45:54,661 --> 00:45:57,781
Speaker 2: you know, happily ever after till death do us part,

948
00:45:57,862 --> 00:45:59,941
Speaker 2: and we'll always be happy and everything will always be great,

949
00:45:59,942 --> 00:46:02,221
Speaker 2: and this person will be my best friend, and you know,

950
00:46:02,302 --> 00:46:05,301
Speaker 2: we'll co parent brilliantly and we'll have the same ambitions

951
00:46:05,302 --> 00:46:07,302
Speaker 2: and what we want from each other will never change.

952
00:46:07,382 --> 00:46:09,981
Speaker 2: And the older you get and the more life lived

953
00:46:10,022 --> 00:46:12,462
Speaker 2: and the more things you've seen around you, you just

954
00:46:12,542 --> 00:46:16,382
Speaker 2: realize that that is it's like almost impossible, Which is

955
00:46:16,462 --> 00:46:20,142
Speaker 2: why I think that, you know, the happy, successful marriages

956
00:46:20,181 --> 00:46:23,142
Speaker 2: you do see around you are definitely worth celebrating because

957
00:46:23,142 --> 00:46:28,062
Speaker 2: it's really really hard. It's very very hard to live

958
00:46:28,302 --> 00:46:32,341
Speaker 2: most of your life with somebody else. But I don't know,

959
00:46:32,382 --> 00:46:34,861
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting. Sally said this, and also my

960
00:46:34,982 --> 00:46:37,781
Speaker 2: friends who've been through divorce will tell me this is

961
00:46:37,822 --> 00:46:39,942
Speaker 2: that when you are going through that and have been

962
00:46:39,982 --> 00:46:41,462
Speaker 2: through that, you know how you were saying, Amelia, is

963
00:46:41,502 --> 00:46:44,021
Speaker 2: it contagious? Suddenly everyone comes and tells you the truth

964
00:46:44,062 --> 00:46:46,861
Speaker 2: about their relationships. You know, you don't go and tell

965
00:46:46,902 --> 00:46:49,062
Speaker 2: your friends who looks like they've got a perfect marriage, like,

966
00:46:49,142 --> 00:46:51,542
Speaker 2: actually we haven't had sex in two years, or I'm

967
00:46:51,582 --> 00:46:55,022
Speaker 2: thinking of having an affair, or I'm really unhappy, or

968
00:46:55,102 --> 00:46:57,701
Speaker 2: he's awful to me or whatever it is. You don't

969
00:46:57,781 --> 00:47:00,422
Speaker 2: say that to your happily married friends. You say that

970
00:47:00,542 --> 00:47:03,422
Speaker 2: to your friends who you can see have found a

971
00:47:03,462 --> 00:47:05,341
Speaker 2: way through it. And maybe you're on the other side

972
00:47:05,382 --> 00:47:08,582
Speaker 2: of that. So I think that probably people who are

973
00:47:08,622 --> 00:47:11,421
Speaker 2: divorced and separated, I know a lot more about it

974
00:47:11,502 --> 00:47:11,981
Speaker 2: in a way.

975
00:47:12,181 --> 00:47:15,181
Speaker 1: You know, Jesse, you said something interesting too, when you

976
00:47:15,261 --> 00:47:18,062
Speaker 1: said that marriage has evolved in ways that we might

977
00:47:18,102 --> 00:47:23,342
Speaker 1: not have expected. Sort of surprising, how tenacious the idea

978
00:47:23,542 --> 00:47:27,861
Speaker 1: of marriage remains, even when we have evolved in so

979
00:47:27,902 --> 00:47:31,902
Speaker 1: many other ways to sort of reject traditional institutions. It

980
00:47:31,982 --> 00:47:34,742
Speaker 1: was interesting because apparently there was a recent survey donogen

981
00:47:35,102 --> 00:47:38,102
Speaker 1: Z Australians between the ages of fifteen and twenty four,

982
00:47:38,781 --> 00:47:42,261
Speaker 1: and seventy percent of them said that marriage was still

983
00:47:42,261 --> 00:47:45,262
Speaker 1: an aspiration. They said, it's not essential for raising children,

984
00:47:45,462 --> 00:47:46,942
Speaker 1: which is what we used to think of as the

985
00:47:46,982 --> 00:47:49,862
Speaker 1: reason why people got married, but that they still wanted

986
00:47:49,902 --> 00:47:52,582
Speaker 1: to get married. And it's fascinating that among all those

987
00:47:52,622 --> 00:47:55,741
Speaker 1: traditional institutions, think of the church, or think of the

988
00:47:55,781 --> 00:47:58,341
Speaker 1: idea of women staying at home, marriage is the one

989
00:47:58,342 --> 00:47:59,382
Speaker 1: that's really clung on.

990
00:47:59,982 --> 00:48:01,982
Speaker 3: I like the idea that it's evolved, and there was

991
00:48:02,022 --> 00:48:04,502
Speaker 3: an article in the Atlantic about it and had a

992
00:48:04,502 --> 00:48:08,661
Speaker 3: lot of research. And obviously these are generalizations and there

993
00:48:08,661 --> 00:48:12,142
Speaker 3: are lots of different exceptions, but in terms of loneliness,

994
00:48:12,142 --> 00:48:14,422
Speaker 3: apparently it can be really good for men and women.

995
00:48:14,622 --> 00:48:17,822
Speaker 3: And to think that it's this institution that's been around

996
00:48:17,822 --> 00:48:21,422
Speaker 3: for a really long time. Yet what the research suggested

997
00:48:21,701 --> 00:48:26,261
Speaker 3: was that the nineteen sixty marriage bears very little resemblance

998
00:48:26,302 --> 00:48:28,942
Speaker 3: to the twenty twenty five marriage. And even though of

999
00:48:29,022 --> 00:48:31,821
Speaker 3: course there are still domestic inequalities with things like child

1000
00:48:31,902 --> 00:48:35,102
Speaker 3: rearing and housework and all of those things, there are changes.

1001
00:48:35,142 --> 00:48:38,142
Speaker 3: And when they asked people in marriages what contributed to

1002
00:48:38,181 --> 00:48:41,701
Speaker 3: a happy marriage, equality was one of the biggest things,

1003
00:48:41,741 --> 00:48:43,502
Speaker 3: them saying that they felt like there was a quality

1004
00:48:43,582 --> 00:48:46,381
Speaker 3: within that marriage, which would not have been the answer.

1005
00:48:46,062 --> 00:48:47,542
Speaker 1: In the night well when they got married in the

1006
00:48:47,582 --> 00:48:50,741
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, the woman wouldn't have been able to open

1007
00:48:50,741 --> 00:48:52,702
Speaker 1: a bank account on her own.

1008
00:48:52,701 --> 00:48:55,582
Speaker 2: Hold her job. I think the reason that seventy percent

1009
00:48:55,622 --> 00:48:58,622
Speaker 2: of young people want to get married is for the GRAM.

1010
00:48:58,942 --> 00:49:01,821
Speaker 2: It's taken care of your content for at least six months.

1011
00:49:03,062 --> 00:49:05,742
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1012
00:49:05,781 --> 00:49:08,301
Speaker 2: to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting

1013
00:49:08,342 --> 00:49:10,861
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1014
00:49:10,622 --> 00:49:12,701
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00:49:16,462 --> 00:49:19,502
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1019
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