1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,869 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:18,349 Speaker 2: MoMA Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:20,589 Speaker 1: Hello. 5 00:00:20,749 --> 00:00:23,269 Speaker 3: I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia and 6 00:00:23,269 --> 00:00:26,149 Speaker 3: I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, Parenting 7 00:00:26,149 --> 00:00:29,189 Speaker 3: out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening with 8 00:00:29,309 --> 00:00:33,069 Speaker 3: a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents actually want. 9 00:00:33,509 --> 00:00:36,709 Speaker 3: This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes right here 10 00:00:36,709 --> 00:00:40,309 Speaker 3: into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. And 11 00:00:40,349 --> 00:00:42,429 Speaker 3: if you're looking for more to listen to, every Muma 12 00:00:42,509 --> 00:00:45,669 Speaker 3: Mia podcast is curating Some are listening right across the network, 13 00:00:45,869 --> 00:00:49,709 Speaker 3: from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. There's something 14 00:00:49,749 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 3: for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 15 00:00:58,429 --> 00:01:01,789 Speaker 2: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for parents who 16 00:01:01,829 --> 00:01:06,069 Speaker 2: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the news, 17 00:01:06,269 --> 00:01:09,989 Speaker 2: the trends, the culture, and what parents are thinking about. 18 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:13,509 Speaker 2: I'm Monique Bowley. I'm an eldest daughter. I am a 19 00:01:13,589 --> 00:01:15,709 Speaker 2: school captain and a sports captain. 20 00:01:16,949 --> 00:01:18,109 Speaker 1: I'm Stacey Hicks. 21 00:01:18,109 --> 00:01:21,109 Speaker 3: I am also an eldest daughter, also a school captain 22 00:01:21,309 --> 00:01:22,949 Speaker 3: and was a prefect too. 23 00:01:23,229 --> 00:01:26,029 Speaker 4: And I'm Amelia last I'm a youngest child type B 24 00:01:26,349 --> 00:01:28,829 Speaker 4: and was never even a prefect. And I'm feeling a 25 00:01:28,909 --> 00:01:32,189 Speaker 4: lot of stifling school captain energy here today. 26 00:01:32,549 --> 00:01:32,789 Speaker 1: Yeah. 27 00:01:32,829 --> 00:01:34,989 Speaker 3: Well, so we had a big response last week, didn't 28 00:01:35,029 --> 00:01:37,549 Speaker 3: we to the eldest Daughter conversation. You must have felt 29 00:01:37,669 --> 00:01:39,949 Speaker 3: very outnumbered by all the eldest daughtersts. 30 00:01:39,989 --> 00:01:42,629 Speaker 4: And I'm just gonna wait for Taylor Swift's next song. 31 00:01:42,829 --> 00:01:45,469 Speaker 4: I was the school captain and that's so hard for me. 32 00:01:46,349 --> 00:01:47,909 Speaker 4: I guess I'm here to break the rules. 33 00:01:48,989 --> 00:01:52,149 Speaker 3: Coming up on today's show, some very well read people 34 00:01:52,149 --> 00:01:54,429 Speaker 3: gave advice on how to find more time for reading, 35 00:01:54,509 --> 00:01:56,309 Speaker 3: and it annoyed the hell out of one of us. 36 00:01:56,309 --> 00:01:57,229 Speaker 1: I'll let you guess which. 37 00:01:57,389 --> 00:01:59,549 Speaker 4: I want to talk about some dads who are in 38 00:01:59,589 --> 00:02:01,829 Speaker 4: their feelings this week and why that's so unusual. 39 00:02:02,069 --> 00:02:04,149 Speaker 2: And there's a name for the period of life that 40 00:02:04,189 --> 00:02:07,509 Speaker 2: we're all in. With the wolves closing, We've got young 41 00:02:07,669 --> 00:02:10,349 Speaker 2: kids and careers and expectations. 42 00:02:10,669 --> 00:02:12,669 Speaker 5: Welcome to the Squeeze. 43 00:02:13,149 --> 00:02:16,669 Speaker 3: But first, there was a very awkward moment on Taylor 44 00:02:16,709 --> 00:02:19,309 Speaker 3: Swift's publicity to our for her new album, The Life 45 00:02:19,309 --> 00:02:21,629 Speaker 3: of the show Girl, and I am the resident Swifty. 46 00:02:21,749 --> 00:02:23,349 Speaker 3: I feel it is my duty to bring it to 47 00:02:23,389 --> 00:02:27,229 Speaker 3: you today. This is BBC Radio two Scott Mills talking 48 00:02:27,269 --> 00:02:29,869 Speaker 3: to Taylor. Take a listen, Taylor, don't tell me this 49 00:02:29,909 --> 00:02:31,669 Speaker 3: is your last album? 50 00:02:31,869 --> 00:02:32,109 Speaker 5: What? 51 00:02:32,549 --> 00:02:32,589 Speaker 3: No. 52 00:02:32,829 --> 00:02:34,469 Speaker 6: I just saw some fans going, well, she's going to 53 00:02:34,509 --> 00:02:39,349 Speaker 6: get married and she's going to last Album's sharckingly offensive 54 00:02:39,389 --> 00:02:39,909 Speaker 6: thing to say. 55 00:02:39,949 --> 00:02:42,709 Speaker 5: Absolutely, it is not the last album. 56 00:02:42,789 --> 00:02:45,429 Speaker 1: Not why people get married, No, exactly so that they 57 00:02:45,429 --> 00:02:47,029 Speaker 1: can right. 58 00:02:47,269 --> 00:02:49,989 Speaker 4: As if Taylor Swift is ever going to stop working. 59 00:02:50,269 --> 00:02:52,429 Speaker 1: I know it's the funniest thing. And I love that 60 00:02:52,469 --> 00:02:52,749 Speaker 1: he said. 61 00:02:52,749 --> 00:02:55,829 Speaker 3: I'm seeing some people some people are saying that. I 62 00:02:55,829 --> 00:02:57,789 Speaker 3: don't think we've ever actually seen anyone say that. 63 00:02:57,789 --> 00:02:58,509 Speaker 5: That's so true. 64 00:02:58,589 --> 00:03:01,749 Speaker 2: I went deep into the annals of Swifty fandom to 65 00:03:01,789 --> 00:03:03,829 Speaker 2: try and find who was saying this, and I can't 66 00:03:03,869 --> 00:03:06,349 Speaker 2: Stacey is it because the lyrics of her songs are 67 00:03:06,429 --> 00:03:08,749 Speaker 2: very sort of let's have kids and get married and 68 00:03:08,789 --> 00:03:09,349 Speaker 2: settled down. 69 00:03:09,829 --> 00:03:12,109 Speaker 3: She have one song wish List where she does talk 70 00:03:12,149 --> 00:03:14,629 Speaker 3: about having a couple of kids and that life. But 71 00:03:15,389 --> 00:03:18,749 Speaker 3: I mean, every woman in music at the top of 72 00:03:18,749 --> 00:03:21,589 Speaker 3: her game right now is married or has children, like 73 00:03:21,669 --> 00:03:24,949 Speaker 3: Beyonce Rihanna. I don't know why that's been put onto table. 74 00:03:24,989 --> 00:03:27,669 Speaker 4: To be fair, Rianna has not released any new music 75 00:03:27,709 --> 00:03:28,749 Speaker 4: in a very long time. 76 00:03:28,949 --> 00:03:31,589 Speaker 1: That's true. Maybe he's onto something, maybe she's going to 77 00:03:31,629 --> 00:03:32,229 Speaker 1: slow down. 78 00:03:32,509 --> 00:03:35,349 Speaker 4: What I want to talk about today is the dads, 79 00:03:35,429 --> 00:03:38,629 Speaker 4: because the dads this week have been really in their 80 00:03:38,669 --> 00:03:42,069 Speaker 4: feelings and that's kind of unusual to hear Dad's talk 81 00:03:42,109 --> 00:03:44,669 Speaker 4: about the challenges of being a dad. The first dad 82 00:03:44,669 --> 00:03:46,189 Speaker 4: that I want to bring to the table is George 83 00:03:46,189 --> 00:03:48,989 Speaker 4: Clooney or hot Dad. Yeah, I'm always happy to bring 84 00:03:49,069 --> 00:03:49,749 Speaker 4: him to the table. 85 00:03:49,869 --> 00:03:50,829 Speaker 1: Please bring him more. 86 00:03:50,909 --> 00:03:53,189 Speaker 4: I've mentioned on the show before that I once had 87 00:03:53,189 --> 00:03:54,829 Speaker 4: the chance to speak to him on the phone for 88 00:03:54,869 --> 00:03:57,869 Speaker 4: an hour for an interview, and he was just as 89 00:03:57,909 --> 00:04:01,669 Speaker 4: delightful as he appears. He's promoting his new movie Ja 90 00:04:01,829 --> 00:04:04,589 Speaker 4: Kelly with Adam Samoa, and that movie is about a 91 00:04:04,669 --> 00:04:08,349 Speaker 4: guy in midlife who kind of comes to regret the 92 00:04:08,389 --> 00:04:10,709 Speaker 4: fact that he hasn't spent enough time with him children. 93 00:04:10,789 --> 00:04:12,989 Speaker 4: So he's been talking a lot on red carpets and 94 00:04:12,989 --> 00:04:17,069 Speaker 4: at premieres about how he achieves the juggle in his 95 00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:19,909 Speaker 4: life between work and family life. We never hear from 96 00:04:19,989 --> 00:04:21,869 Speaker 4: Dad's about the juggle. Let's hear what he had to 97 00:04:21,869 --> 00:04:23,309 Speaker 4: say about that to Fox Extra. 98 00:04:23,669 --> 00:04:26,949 Speaker 6: You know, I think you probably have these same conversations, 99 00:04:26,989 --> 00:04:30,109 Speaker 6: and most people we know in almost every industry had 100 00:04:30,149 --> 00:04:32,669 Speaker 6: the conversations of I wish I'd been able to spend 101 00:04:32,989 --> 00:04:34,949 Speaker 6: I wish I hadn't missed this thing that my kids 102 00:04:34,949 --> 00:04:37,669 Speaker 6: were doing, but I was working. And so it's coming 103 00:04:37,669 --> 00:04:40,989 Speaker 6: to terms with the sacrifice you make to succeed. You know, 104 00:04:41,029 --> 00:04:44,429 Speaker 6: I'm not in that mass rush to succeed anymore. I've 105 00:04:44,429 --> 00:04:48,069 Speaker 6: had my career in many ways, and you know, things 106 00:04:48,189 --> 00:04:49,949 Speaker 6: were winding down in a way. So I get to 107 00:04:49,949 --> 00:04:53,389 Speaker 6: be home with my kids a lot, and it's fun. 108 00:04:53,629 --> 00:04:55,669 Speaker 6: You know, I'm still young enough that I can run 109 00:04:55,709 --> 00:04:59,029 Speaker 6: around with them. That's that's going away quickly, but I 110 00:04:59,029 --> 00:05:01,149 Speaker 6: can still do it right now, and so you know, 111 00:05:01,189 --> 00:05:02,469 Speaker 6: I'm having a really fun time. 112 00:05:02,949 --> 00:05:06,309 Speaker 4: I love this just as a quick refresher. Georgia's sixty four. 113 00:05:06,429 --> 00:05:08,629 Speaker 4: He's been married to his wife a Mile for eleven years. 114 00:05:08,669 --> 00:05:11,669 Speaker 4: They celebrated their anniversary last month, and they have eight 115 00:05:11,789 --> 00:05:15,069 Speaker 4: year old twins, Alexander and Ella. Why isn't so rare 116 00:05:15,149 --> 00:05:17,069 Speaker 4: to hear Dad's talk about the juggle moons? 117 00:05:17,389 --> 00:05:23,389 Speaker 2: We still act like Dad's juggling is groundbreaking and mum's 118 00:05:23,509 --> 00:05:25,829 Speaker 2: juggling is just any other day of the week. I 119 00:05:25,829 --> 00:05:29,309 Speaker 2: think it feels rare because men are socialized to see 120 00:05:29,389 --> 00:05:31,589 Speaker 2: work as their identity and family is their hobby. 121 00:05:31,709 --> 00:05:32,789 Speaker 5: It's just flipping the script. 122 00:05:33,029 --> 00:05:33,269 Speaker 2: Yeah. 123 00:05:33,349 --> 00:05:36,269 Speaker 3: I think it's probably also in George's case, a case 124 00:05:36,309 --> 00:05:39,029 Speaker 3: for having children older like that he can wind down 125 00:05:39,149 --> 00:05:42,429 Speaker 3: his career. Now, that's probably a reason that it would 126 00:05:42,429 --> 00:05:43,949 Speaker 3: be good for him to do that, because then he's 127 00:05:43,949 --> 00:05:46,549 Speaker 3: got that quality time with his kids not always achievable 128 00:05:46,669 --> 00:05:47,229 Speaker 3: for everyone. 129 00:05:47,309 --> 00:05:50,069 Speaker 4: And it is hard, this juggle. And we had another 130 00:05:50,189 --> 00:05:53,229 Speaker 4: dad talk about it this week, Prince William. He gave 131 00:05:53,269 --> 00:05:57,269 Speaker 4: a very revealing interview on a new travel show which 132 00:05:57,309 --> 00:05:59,909 Speaker 4: is hosted by Eugene Levy of Shit's Creek Fame. It's 133 00:05:59,909 --> 00:06:02,669 Speaker 4: on Apple TV. It's called The Reluctant Traveler, and he 134 00:06:02,709 --> 00:06:04,789 Speaker 4: opened up about what weighs on him. 135 00:06:05,349 --> 00:06:06,909 Speaker 7: Story doesn't overwhelm you? 136 00:06:07,149 --> 00:06:09,269 Speaker 1: Is there anything that does? 137 00:06:09,589 --> 00:06:12,789 Speaker 7: YEH think stuff to do with family overwhelms me quite 138 00:06:12,789 --> 00:06:15,869 Speaker 7: a bit. You know, worry or stress around family side 139 00:06:15,869 --> 00:06:18,149 Speaker 7: of things, that does overwhelm me quite a bit. But 140 00:06:18,389 --> 00:06:21,029 Speaker 7: in terms of you know, doing the job and things 141 00:06:21,029 --> 00:06:23,509 Speaker 7: like that, I don't feel too overwhelmed by that. 142 00:06:23,949 --> 00:06:26,989 Speaker 4: You can tell that it's so hard for him to 143 00:06:27,109 --> 00:06:29,749 Speaker 4: talk about his private life. I kind of feel for 144 00:06:29,869 --> 00:06:30,549 Speaker 4: him in this clip. 145 00:06:30,949 --> 00:06:35,429 Speaker 2: I am obsessed with this episode. I'm obsessed with this 146 00:06:35,509 --> 00:06:40,069 Speaker 2: PR strategy. Why Eugene Levy and why a show called 147 00:06:40,069 --> 00:06:43,909 Speaker 2: The Reluctant Traveler. It's such a weird PR move, So 148 00:06:44,029 --> 00:06:46,949 Speaker 2: lots of people are saying this is Wills at his 149 00:06:47,189 --> 00:06:50,349 Speaker 2: most revealing. He talks about the monarchy, he talks about 150 00:06:50,349 --> 00:06:52,549 Speaker 2: how he wants to bring change in he talks about 151 00:06:52,549 --> 00:06:55,349 Speaker 2: how important his family is, and all of his pundits 152 00:06:55,349 --> 00:06:57,469 Speaker 2: are saying this is a side to Wills that we 153 00:06:57,549 --> 00:07:00,829 Speaker 2: haven't seen before. So my question is why Eugene Levy, 154 00:07:00,869 --> 00:07:03,389 Speaker 2: And I think it's because he's not part of the 155 00:07:03,509 --> 00:07:07,429 Speaker 2: Royal Rota, so he's not going to get tough questions. 156 00:07:07,789 --> 00:07:11,109 Speaker 2: He's a safe pair of hands. He's Canadian. You know, 157 00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:13,389 Speaker 2: Canada's part of the Commonwealth, so it's probably some sort 158 00:07:13,429 --> 00:07:16,389 Speaker 2: of like soft diplomacy to give Canada an interview with 159 00:07:16,469 --> 00:07:20,749 Speaker 2: Prince William. The reason I'm obsessed with this he's so 160 00:07:21,389 --> 00:07:25,309 Speaker 2: charismatic and charming. I cannot believe it. He's so likable. 161 00:07:25,869 --> 00:07:29,429 Speaker 2: He's riding a scooter. He's like, I'm just a regular dad. 162 00:07:30,029 --> 00:07:33,389 Speaker 2: He just shows enormous emotional range. So he goes from 163 00:07:33,509 --> 00:07:36,669 Speaker 2: really charming, funny, witty and quick and then when he 164 00:07:36,709 --> 00:07:39,069 Speaker 2: talks about his family, you can see how difficult it 165 00:07:39,109 --> 00:07:39,549 Speaker 2: is for him. 166 00:07:39,669 --> 00:07:41,989 Speaker 5: I just I loved it. I was obsessed with it. 167 00:07:42,109 --> 00:07:44,669 Speaker 1: See the strategy worked on on She's into it. 168 00:07:44,829 --> 00:07:46,109 Speaker 5: Did it really did? 169 00:07:46,149 --> 00:07:49,509 Speaker 2: And I think what it's giving is a man who's 170 00:07:49,549 --> 00:07:53,349 Speaker 2: had therapy, and it's giving a man who's now a 171 00:07:53,469 --> 00:07:57,309 Speaker 2: dad and who is reflecting on how he was parented. 172 00:07:57,789 --> 00:08:00,949 Speaker 2: And there are some very pointed things he says in 173 00:08:00,989 --> 00:08:03,989 Speaker 2: this episode about the way that he was parented and 174 00:08:04,029 --> 00:08:05,669 Speaker 2: how he wants to be different. 175 00:08:06,949 --> 00:08:09,229 Speaker 5: You've heard of burnout, you've heard of the mental load. 176 00:08:09,549 --> 00:08:11,989 Speaker 5: But there's a new name for this. 177 00:08:12,109 --> 00:08:15,989 Speaker 2: Particular period of life that so many women in their 178 00:08:15,989 --> 00:08:21,069 Speaker 2: thirties and forties are in, and it's called the squeeze. Now, 179 00:08:21,109 --> 00:08:24,949 Speaker 2: this is a term that economist Carinlo has coined. She's 180 00:08:24,949 --> 00:08:28,309 Speaker 2: got a new book called Having It All. She basically says, 181 00:08:28,589 --> 00:08:33,669 Speaker 2: the squeeze is that particularly brutal, exhausting stage of life 182 00:08:33,709 --> 00:08:36,149 Speaker 2: when all the pressures converge on you at once. This 183 00:08:36,189 --> 00:08:39,949 Speaker 2: is particularly pertinent to me because Amelia, I quit my 184 00:08:40,149 --> 00:08:41,829 Speaker 2: job because of the squeeze? 185 00:08:42,269 --> 00:08:45,149 Speaker 5: Am I fucked? Have I fucked myself? 186 00:08:45,629 --> 00:08:45,709 Speaker 3: No? 187 00:08:45,869 --> 00:08:49,229 Speaker 4: And don't think you fucked yourself. I love this term 188 00:08:49,509 --> 00:08:53,429 Speaker 4: because it gives a name to something that is such 189 00:08:53,429 --> 00:08:58,029 Speaker 4: a familiar feeling, which is when you are feeling maximum 190 00:08:58,109 --> 00:09:01,589 Speaker 4: pressure at work and maximum pressure at home, and there's 191 00:09:01,589 --> 00:09:04,189 Speaker 4: a part of you that thinks, this is why we 192 00:09:04,389 --> 00:09:07,629 Speaker 4: used to have just one bread winner in the household, 193 00:09:07,669 --> 00:09:09,829 Speaker 4: This is why we used to have just the dad 194 00:09:09,869 --> 00:09:13,269 Speaker 4: work because it was easier. If you sat down to 195 00:09:13,349 --> 00:09:16,309 Speaker 4: redesign the economic system, you would never have designed it 196 00:09:16,669 --> 00:09:20,349 Speaker 4: so that in women's fertile years, they are also being 197 00:09:20,469 --> 00:09:23,389 Speaker 4: asked to make enough money to pay for a mortgage 198 00:09:23,389 --> 00:09:26,669 Speaker 4: in Australia in twenty twenty five. What's really interesting about 199 00:09:26,709 --> 00:09:29,309 Speaker 4: this is how she came to this idea of the squeeze. 200 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:32,029 Speaker 4: She went viral for an article in The Cut in August. 201 00:09:32,629 --> 00:09:36,549 Speaker 4: The headline was this economist crunched the numbers and stopped 202 00:09:36,669 --> 00:09:40,189 Speaker 4: dating men. So she took what she found out very personally. 203 00:09:40,429 --> 00:09:42,349 Speaker 4: She had her first child in twenty seventeen. She was 204 00:09:42,349 --> 00:09:45,789 Speaker 4: holding down a very demanding academic job and she kept 205 00:09:45,789 --> 00:09:48,469 Speaker 4: finding that the division of household labor between her and 206 00:09:48,509 --> 00:09:52,549 Speaker 4: her husband was consistently unfair. She was the primary breadwinner 207 00:09:52,629 --> 00:09:55,469 Speaker 4: in the relationship, and yet she was also having to 208 00:09:55,509 --> 00:09:59,029 Speaker 4: do the laundry and the administrative tasks and the cleaning 209 00:09:59,069 --> 00:10:02,229 Speaker 4: of the house, and so she decided it just wasn't 210 00:10:02,229 --> 00:10:04,909 Speaker 4: going to get better, so she left and, in her 211 00:10:04,949 --> 00:10:08,509 Speaker 4: own words, become a lesbian as an evidence based decision. 212 00:10:08,909 --> 00:10:12,229 Speaker 4: So that's really an example of heteropessimism, which is one 213 00:10:12,309 --> 00:10:14,549 Speaker 4: response to this idea of the squeeze, right, Like one 214 00:10:14,589 --> 00:10:18,349 Speaker 4: response is just to say the problem is not structural, 215 00:10:18,469 --> 00:10:21,989 Speaker 4: the problem is just with being in heterosexual relationships. 216 00:10:22,029 --> 00:10:26,069 Speaker 3: But surely this is a problem not just for hetero couples, Like, 217 00:10:26,109 --> 00:10:28,509 Speaker 3: I'm sure there are a lot of same sex couples 218 00:10:28,589 --> 00:10:31,869 Speaker 3: or solo parents who would be saying this is the 219 00:10:31,909 --> 00:10:34,229 Speaker 3: same for me, Like we're both working so hard and 220 00:10:34,269 --> 00:10:36,349 Speaker 3: we're both parenting and in the trenches there. So I 221 00:10:36,389 --> 00:10:37,789 Speaker 3: do think there are a lot of people who are 222 00:10:37,829 --> 00:10:40,509 Speaker 3: feeling the squeeze at this point in their lives. She 223 00:10:40,669 --> 00:10:42,949 Speaker 3: is really quick to say that it's not the only 224 00:10:42,989 --> 00:10:45,949 Speaker 3: way to cope with this really objectively difficult period of life. 225 00:10:45,949 --> 00:10:49,749 Speaker 4: I think what she would say is careers themselves are 226 00:10:49,829 --> 00:10:52,389 Speaker 4: changing a lot, and what she wants you to do 227 00:10:52,509 --> 00:10:54,749 Speaker 4: now that you know about the squeeze is look ahead 228 00:10:54,789 --> 00:10:57,909 Speaker 4: to other women in your field, in your industry and 229 00:10:58,069 --> 00:11:00,509 Speaker 4: see whether or not they come through the squeeze and 230 00:11:00,549 --> 00:11:03,549 Speaker 4: then advance. If you can't see role models of older 231 00:11:03,629 --> 00:11:05,909 Speaker 4: women doing what you want to do, that means you 232 00:11:05,989 --> 00:11:08,709 Speaker 4: need to change course. That's part of the whole point 233 00:11:08,709 --> 00:11:11,269 Speaker 4: of the squeeze is like, at this point in your life, 234 00:11:11,309 --> 00:11:13,909 Speaker 4: at this pivotal moment, make sure that when you come 235 00:11:13,949 --> 00:11:16,189 Speaker 4: out the other end of this, you have a path 236 00:11:16,229 --> 00:11:18,749 Speaker 4: forward in what you want to do, because if you don't, 237 00:11:18,789 --> 00:11:20,749 Speaker 4: you need to think about doing something else. 238 00:11:20,989 --> 00:11:23,229 Speaker 3: I think what you say, Mom's about quitting your job 239 00:11:23,269 --> 00:11:25,669 Speaker 3: when you feel that squeeze. We're seeing that a lot 240 00:11:25,749 --> 00:11:27,389 Speaker 3: more with Like I know a lot of women who 241 00:11:27,469 --> 00:11:30,669 Speaker 3: quit their jobs even without something to necessarily go to next, 242 00:11:31,029 --> 00:11:33,269 Speaker 3: but because they go, well, something's got to give, Like 243 00:11:33,309 --> 00:11:36,269 Speaker 3: I'm getting squeezed. I can't return the children. The only 244 00:11:36,309 --> 00:11:37,989 Speaker 3: thing that you can let go of there is the job. 245 00:11:38,029 --> 00:11:40,349 Speaker 3: And it's for that very reason that you're saying, Amelia, 246 00:11:40,429 --> 00:11:43,829 Speaker 3: to pivot to something else, because that squeeze just becomes 247 00:11:43,949 --> 00:11:46,309 Speaker 3: too much. But I love this term because I feel 248 00:11:46,309 --> 00:11:48,869 Speaker 3: like we always talk about being stretched, but what it 249 00:11:48,909 --> 00:11:50,909 Speaker 3: is is a squeeze. Isn't it like it does feel 250 00:11:50,909 --> 00:11:52,469 Speaker 3: like the walls are closing in around you as you're 251 00:11:52,469 --> 00:11:53,829 Speaker 3: trying to keep up with all that stuff. 252 00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:56,749 Speaker 2: This is every conversation I have with every working mother 253 00:11:56,869 --> 00:11:59,349 Speaker 2: is about the squeeze. Are we the first generation to 254 00:11:59,429 --> 00:12:00,669 Speaker 2: feel the squeeze is hard? 255 00:12:01,069 --> 00:12:03,749 Speaker 4: Yes? And I think we are also the first generation 256 00:12:03,949 --> 00:12:08,069 Speaker 4: to not necessarily have a nice trajectory out of the squeeze. 257 00:12:08,109 --> 00:12:11,389 Speaker 4: I think that's really what she's getting at when she says, 258 00:12:11,469 --> 00:12:15,829 Speaker 4: look ahead, look beyond the squeeze, because there's no guarantees 259 00:12:15,949 --> 00:12:18,509 Speaker 4: that we can rise up a corporate ladder in the 260 00:12:18,549 --> 00:12:21,589 Speaker 4: way that we used to, particularly with artificial intelligence coming 261 00:12:21,589 --> 00:12:24,349 Speaker 4: down the pike. She has another useful term here, actually, 262 00:12:24,349 --> 00:12:27,389 Speaker 4: which is utility function. She says, look at what you 263 00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:30,109 Speaker 4: want out of life, because when you come out of 264 00:12:30,109 --> 00:12:32,149 Speaker 4: that squeeze, when your kids are older and they need 265 00:12:32,189 --> 00:12:34,989 Speaker 4: you less, when you have more money because you're not 266 00:12:35,069 --> 00:12:37,749 Speaker 4: having to deal with childcare costs as much, for instance, 267 00:12:38,109 --> 00:12:40,509 Speaker 4: and maybe you'll be paying off your mortgage when you 268 00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:42,989 Speaker 4: have that more money and more time, What do you 269 00:12:43,069 --> 00:12:45,349 Speaker 4: want to do with that? You've got to start thinking 270 00:12:45,389 --> 00:12:48,149 Speaker 4: about that now when you're in the squeeze. By the 271 00:12:48,149 --> 00:12:50,229 Speaker 4: time you come out of it, it's going to be 272 00:12:50,269 --> 00:12:50,669 Speaker 4: too late. 273 00:12:50,829 --> 00:12:53,589 Speaker 2: So I read about this in a substack called culture 274 00:12:53,629 --> 00:12:58,309 Speaker 2: Study by Ann Helen Peterson. She says that this concept 275 00:12:58,389 --> 00:13:03,549 Speaker 2: is paradigm shifting. I don't understand why is it paradigm shifting. 276 00:13:03,589 --> 00:13:07,069 Speaker 2: It's just saying what's existing? How is it paradigm shifting? 277 00:13:07,309 --> 00:13:10,589 Speaker 4: Because I think she's reminding you that this is temporary. 278 00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:13,029 Speaker 4: This is not going to last forever. 279 00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:14,349 Speaker 1: But is it temporary? 280 00:13:14,349 --> 00:13:16,789 Speaker 3: Because all I could think about when we were talking 281 00:13:16,789 --> 00:13:18,909 Speaker 3: about this was a lot of women choose to go 282 00:13:18,989 --> 00:13:21,109 Speaker 3: to part time work, or a lot of women are 283 00:13:21,109 --> 00:13:22,909 Speaker 3: in careers where a lot of women, a lot of 284 00:13:22,909 --> 00:13:25,789 Speaker 3: people are in careers where it's not necessarily you stay 285 00:13:25,789 --> 00:13:27,949 Speaker 3: in that job and you'll get that next promotion. Like 286 00:13:28,589 --> 00:13:30,669 Speaker 3: we spoke about it out loud the other day, people 287 00:13:30,709 --> 00:13:34,109 Speaker 3: are job hugging, Like people are holding onto those roles. 288 00:13:34,149 --> 00:13:35,309 Speaker 1: So you can't. 289 00:13:35,069 --> 00:13:37,549 Speaker 5: Necessarily mean if what's job hugging job. 290 00:13:37,389 --> 00:13:39,229 Speaker 1: Huggings instead of job hopping. 291 00:13:39,229 --> 00:13:42,429 Speaker 3: If you listen to Friday's episode we spoke about how 292 00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:45,669 Speaker 3: like instead of everyone moving around to jobs, everyone wants 293 00:13:45,709 --> 00:13:48,309 Speaker 3: stability now, So everyone's holding onto jobs whether they like 294 00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:51,149 Speaker 3: them or not, just so that they have the flexibility 295 00:13:51,309 --> 00:13:53,269 Speaker 3: and guaranteed income coming in. 296 00:13:53,709 --> 00:13:54,629 Speaker 5: That's so interesting. 297 00:13:54,749 --> 00:13:56,429 Speaker 2: We've seen the death of the girl boss and the 298 00:13:56,469 --> 00:13:58,109 Speaker 2: hustle culture. Is it a response to that? 299 00:13:58,469 --> 00:13:58,949 Speaker 1: Yeah. 300 00:13:59,189 --> 00:14:01,109 Speaker 3: My theory on it was a little bit that we 301 00:14:01,149 --> 00:14:04,789 Speaker 3: now value flexibility so much more now than we value money. 302 00:14:05,069 --> 00:14:06,549 Speaker 3: Like we want to be able to have the option 303 00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:08,229 Speaker 3: to work at home, or to take the day off, 304 00:14:08,229 --> 00:14:10,109 Speaker 3: to get our child in the afternoon, whatever it may be. 305 00:14:10,589 --> 00:14:12,789 Speaker 3: And you've kind of got to earn flexibility, Like you 306 00:14:12,829 --> 00:14:14,469 Speaker 3: can't go into a job from the get go and 307 00:14:14,509 --> 00:14:17,869 Speaker 3: get that huge and people are holding on a lot longer. 308 00:14:18,269 --> 00:14:20,549 Speaker 1: But also if you're in an industry where there isn't. 309 00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:23,589 Speaker 3: Necessarily that climb, like if you're working in hospitality and 310 00:14:23,629 --> 00:14:26,789 Speaker 3: working in a cafe, like there might not be the 311 00:14:26,829 --> 00:14:29,469 Speaker 3: promise of more money coming down the pipeline. Sure your 312 00:14:29,549 --> 00:14:32,269 Speaker 3: children will be older, but don't they say, like bigger children, 313 00:14:32,269 --> 00:14:35,189 Speaker 3: bigger problems, like that you're dealing with more, helping them 314 00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:35,629 Speaker 3: with more. 315 00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:38,429 Speaker 4: Look, to be honest, you've hit on my secret response 316 00:14:38,469 --> 00:14:40,909 Speaker 4: to this. So I started off by being like, it's great, 317 00:14:40,989 --> 00:14:43,149 Speaker 4: and it is great. I love having a term to 318 00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:45,869 Speaker 4: put around a feeling or an emotion. But I've got 319 00:14:45,909 --> 00:14:48,309 Speaker 4: to reveal to you that as I was reading, I 320 00:14:48,309 --> 00:14:53,789 Speaker 4: felt anxiety because I felt like Karna was describing a 321 00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:56,949 Speaker 4: world which I don't live in the idea that I'm 322 00:14:57,189 --> 00:15:00,309 Speaker 4: gonna eventually make more and more money. That's not the 323 00:15:00,309 --> 00:15:03,469 Speaker 4: future I see. I see a future where, in fact, 324 00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:06,669 Speaker 4: if anything, my earning power is becoming more and more 325 00:15:06,749 --> 00:15:09,789 Speaker 4: volatile and more and more uncertain. So I see a 326 00:15:09,789 --> 00:15:13,309 Speaker 4: future where the kids need me less, I'm making less money. 327 00:15:13,469 --> 00:15:16,549 Speaker 4: This is not what she's describing. No, And I felt 328 00:15:16,589 --> 00:15:18,069 Speaker 4: a lot of anxiety about that. 329 00:15:18,309 --> 00:15:22,349 Speaker 2: Is it a kind of privileged theory? Because you're right, 330 00:15:22,829 --> 00:15:26,149 Speaker 2: does this apply to people who are in insecure work, 331 00:15:26,189 --> 00:15:29,229 Speaker 2: people who are like nurses or teachers and things like that. 332 00:15:29,429 --> 00:15:33,069 Speaker 2: It feels like this theory of the squeeze only really 333 00:15:33,069 --> 00:15:35,309 Speaker 2: applies to people in maybe white college jobs who can 334 00:15:35,349 --> 00:15:36,309 Speaker 2: climb the greasy pop. 335 00:15:36,269 --> 00:15:38,709 Speaker 4: Well, not even white college jobs. I would argue that 336 00:15:38,749 --> 00:15:41,589 Speaker 4: with the AI revolution that's coming, I don't think even 337 00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:44,909 Speaker 4: white college jobs have the predictability and the stability that 338 00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:47,429 Speaker 4: they used to have. So I wonder if she's actually 339 00:15:47,469 --> 00:15:50,149 Speaker 4: just talking about academia, which is where she's from. Maybe 340 00:15:50,149 --> 00:15:52,509 Speaker 4: she feels that in that industry there is still a 341 00:15:52,589 --> 00:15:54,989 Speaker 4: very clear path forward to advance yourself and to make 342 00:15:55,029 --> 00:15:57,149 Speaker 4: more and more money. But you know, there's also that 343 00:15:57,189 --> 00:16:00,309 Speaker 4: concept of the salary mountain that you climb throughout your 344 00:16:00,309 --> 00:16:03,189 Speaker 4: life and you do reach peak earning power, and for 345 00:16:03,269 --> 00:16:06,189 Speaker 4: men and women, that comes at a different age on average. 346 00:16:06,349 --> 00:16:10,189 Speaker 4: I think for women it's probably around late thirties, early forty. 347 00:16:10,869 --> 00:16:13,469 Speaker 4: So that's weighing on me as well here. I think 348 00:16:13,469 --> 00:16:15,629 Speaker 4: the squeeze is predicated on the idea that I'm going 349 00:16:15,709 --> 00:16:17,949 Speaker 4: to keep making more money and I'm not seeing that. 350 00:16:18,789 --> 00:16:18,949 Speaker 7: No. 351 00:16:19,949 --> 00:16:22,909 Speaker 3: I read an article this week that made me puff 352 00:16:22,909 --> 00:16:25,309 Speaker 3: a fish. It actually annoyed the shit out of me. 353 00:16:25,349 --> 00:16:26,829 Speaker 3: If I'm being honest and. 354 00:16:26,749 --> 00:16:29,509 Speaker 2: I haven't made puffs for fish. Yeah, do you mean, 355 00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:31,909 Speaker 2: like you get all light spiky about it? 356 00:16:31,989 --> 00:16:34,429 Speaker 3: Yeah. It made me like tense up, get really annoyed, 357 00:16:34,669 --> 00:16:37,029 Speaker 3: like get my hackles up about it. And it was 358 00:16:37,029 --> 00:16:39,549 Speaker 3: this piece in the cart which should not have annoyed 359 00:16:39,549 --> 00:16:41,269 Speaker 3: me as much as it did, let me be clear, 360 00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:44,709 Speaker 3: called eighteen well read people on how they find time 361 00:16:44,789 --> 00:16:48,949 Speaker 3: for books. So the author Jasmine voj Dani, asked a 362 00:16:48,989 --> 00:16:51,629 Speaker 3: whole heap of notable people how they find time to read. 363 00:16:51,909 --> 00:16:52,669 Speaker 1: And some had. 364 00:16:52,549 --> 00:16:54,829 Speaker 3: Really strict targets, like they were reading like one hundred 365 00:16:54,829 --> 00:16:57,389 Speaker 3: pages a day, and some were much more chill about 366 00:16:57,389 --> 00:16:59,509 Speaker 3: it and just kind of would find these small moments 367 00:16:59,509 --> 00:17:01,029 Speaker 3: and that all kind of added up to like a 368 00:17:01,069 --> 00:17:04,429 Speaker 3: couple of hours reading every single day. And most of 369 00:17:04,429 --> 00:17:06,789 Speaker 3: them were editors and writers. And before you ask, yes, 370 00:17:06,829 --> 00:17:08,629 Speaker 3: a lot of them had children, because that was my 371 00:17:08,749 --> 00:17:11,389 Speaker 3: initial annoyance was I was like, yeah, but they won't 372 00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:11,949 Speaker 3: have kids. 373 00:17:12,029 --> 00:17:12,869 Speaker 1: But a lot of them did. 374 00:17:13,389 --> 00:17:15,709 Speaker 3: I feel like I used to have endless time for 375 00:17:15,789 --> 00:17:18,669 Speaker 3: books and that seems to have evaporated. What I want 376 00:17:18,709 --> 00:17:20,629 Speaker 3: to know is do you feel like it's just as 377 00:17:20,709 --> 00:17:23,909 Speaker 3: easy as just doing it more? Is that really the answer? 378 00:17:24,949 --> 00:17:27,669 Speaker 4: I actually thought it had a lot of really actionable 379 00:17:27,789 --> 00:17:30,269 Speaker 4: tips in there. Like one of my favorites was from 380 00:17:30,269 --> 00:17:33,029 Speaker 4: Molly Young, who's a book critic who I love. She wrote, 381 00:17:33,349 --> 00:17:36,229 Speaker 4: I treat my phone like poison. I leave the house 382 00:17:36,269 --> 00:17:37,829 Speaker 4: as much as possible without it. 383 00:17:38,189 --> 00:17:38,789 Speaker 1: After I had a. 384 00:17:38,829 --> 00:17:41,469 Speaker 4: Kid, people were like, what if there's an emergency. Every 385 00:17:41,509 --> 00:17:43,869 Speaker 4: fucking person on earth has a phone, I'll ask the 386 00:17:43,869 --> 00:17:47,269 Speaker 4: person sitting eight inches away. I find myself thinking about 387 00:17:47,309 --> 00:17:49,949 Speaker 4: that a lot now that I've read that, thinking maybe 388 00:17:49,989 --> 00:17:52,429 Speaker 4: I can leave my phone at home, Maybe I can 389 00:17:52,469 --> 00:17:54,229 Speaker 4: take a book on the bus instead of dooms. 390 00:17:54,389 --> 00:17:57,229 Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them really do feel like very radical ideas. 391 00:17:57,269 --> 00:17:59,589 Speaker 3: But then when they break it down, you're like, oh, yeah, 392 00:17:59,589 --> 00:18:01,989 Speaker 3: I could actually just not be on my phone. 393 00:18:02,309 --> 00:18:04,029 Speaker 4: So do you think you can start leaving your phone 394 00:18:04,069 --> 00:18:05,549 Speaker 4: at home so you can read books? 395 00:18:05,829 --> 00:18:08,229 Speaker 2: After I read this article, I left my phone at 396 00:18:08,229 --> 00:18:10,909 Speaker 2: home to go and spend time with the neighbors and 397 00:18:10,949 --> 00:18:11,429 Speaker 2: the children. 398 00:18:11,549 --> 00:18:13,069 Speaker 5: Was amazing. I highly recommend it. 399 00:18:13,109 --> 00:18:13,869 Speaker 1: Did it go? Okay? 400 00:18:13,989 --> 00:18:17,429 Speaker 2: It was so great, actually a really iconic afternoon in 401 00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:21,629 Speaker 2: the neighborhood. What I'm interested in is how defensive you sound, Stacy. 402 00:18:22,189 --> 00:18:23,589 Speaker 2: Has this touched a nerve for you? 403 00:18:24,149 --> 00:18:27,629 Speaker 3: It really has, And when I interrogate why that is, 404 00:18:28,029 --> 00:18:30,469 Speaker 3: I think it's because a lot of the people had 405 00:18:30,589 --> 00:18:33,749 Speaker 3: very simple ways to do this, and a lot of 406 00:18:33,789 --> 00:18:37,069 Speaker 3: it involved their phone. And that is where my time 407 00:18:37,149 --> 00:18:39,469 Speaker 3: is going. Like even as a parent, a lot of 408 00:18:39,469 --> 00:18:42,669 Speaker 3: them were parents as well. Giving their reasonings and when 409 00:18:42,709 --> 00:18:44,829 Speaker 3: they find time to do this. At the heart of it, 410 00:18:44,829 --> 00:18:47,549 Speaker 3: it's that I'm choosing to scroll instead of choosing to read. 411 00:18:47,949 --> 00:18:51,429 Speaker 3: And I have often kind of blamed parenthood for, oh, 412 00:18:51,469 --> 00:18:53,189 Speaker 3: I have no time for myself, I have no time 413 00:18:53,229 --> 00:18:55,629 Speaker 3: to do nothing. But I think it's that it's been 414 00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:59,109 Speaker 3: replaced by that little hit, instant hit you get of 415 00:18:59,149 --> 00:19:02,269 Speaker 3: doing a scroll. When these people were saying in a 416 00:19:02,269 --> 00:19:05,349 Speaker 3: lot of ways, you don't need optimal reading conditions, like 417 00:19:05,389 --> 00:19:07,749 Speaker 3: you don't need to be completely alone in the house 418 00:19:07,789 --> 00:19:10,229 Speaker 3: with no one there, in a really comfortable chair. A 419 00:19:10,229 --> 00:19:12,269 Speaker 3: lot of them were just saying, you know, just read 420 00:19:12,669 --> 00:19:14,789 Speaker 3: when you take your child to swimming practice, or just 421 00:19:14,869 --> 00:19:17,189 Speaker 3: read for ten minutes while you heat up dinner. And 422 00:19:17,229 --> 00:19:19,349 Speaker 3: I think it is probably a muscle that I need 423 00:19:19,389 --> 00:19:21,309 Speaker 3: to train to be doing that more. 424 00:19:21,629 --> 00:19:23,629 Speaker 4: I read a start this week that said that for 425 00:19:23,749 --> 00:19:26,469 Speaker 4: young people growing up now under the edge of eighteen, 426 00:19:26,749 --> 00:19:28,989 Speaker 4: they're estimated that they're going to spend twenty five years 427 00:19:28,989 --> 00:19:32,869 Speaker 4: of their life on their phone. Yeah that's me, like 428 00:19:32,909 --> 00:19:33,869 Speaker 4: a ton of bricks. 429 00:19:34,149 --> 00:19:34,389 Speaker 1: Yeah. 430 00:19:34,389 --> 00:19:36,429 Speaker 4: So there were a couple of common threads in there 431 00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:39,029 Speaker 4: about how to avoid that fate. One of them was 432 00:19:39,229 --> 00:19:42,629 Speaker 4: paper books. They keep your concentration and focus more than 433 00:19:42,669 --> 00:19:45,789 Speaker 4: reading on your phone. Another one was being more mindful 434 00:19:45,829 --> 00:19:49,309 Speaker 4: about your phone usage. And then a third thread that 435 00:19:49,389 --> 00:19:52,309 Speaker 4: I noticed was that people who read a lot talk 436 00:19:52,349 --> 00:19:55,589 Speaker 4: about raising readers. That was a phrase that was coming 437 00:19:55,629 --> 00:19:58,269 Speaker 4: up time and time again. So, for instance, one of 438 00:19:58,309 --> 00:20:02,509 Speaker 4: them said that she is raising readers by modeling for them, 439 00:20:02,669 --> 00:20:05,349 Speaker 4: that reading is a great thing to do. MERV. M Ray, 440 00:20:05,389 --> 00:20:07,589 Speaker 4: who is a contributing writer at The New Yorker and 441 00:20:07,629 --> 00:20:10,709 Speaker 4: a professor, said I just don't do anything else. We 442 00:20:10,749 --> 00:20:13,149 Speaker 4: don't have a television, I'm not on TikTok or doing 443 00:20:13,229 --> 00:20:16,229 Speaker 4: any form of scrolling social media. I can't remember the 444 00:20:16,309 --> 00:20:18,789 Speaker 4: last time I saw a movie. I don't actually have 445 00:20:18,909 --> 00:20:21,589 Speaker 4: any habits except to just be reading all the time. 446 00:20:22,269 --> 00:20:24,629 Speaker 4: It was annoying and it made me feel bad, but 447 00:20:24,709 --> 00:20:28,029 Speaker 4: it also got me thinking about the notion of raising readers. 448 00:20:28,069 --> 00:20:31,589 Speaker 4: That's different from reading to your kids. That's raising people 449 00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:34,669 Speaker 4: who want to pick up books. I wanted to pose 450 00:20:34,709 --> 00:20:37,509 Speaker 4: a maybe a bit of a controversial question to you both, 451 00:20:37,549 --> 00:20:41,069 Speaker 4: which is, why is it important to raise readers in 452 00:20:41,109 --> 00:20:44,189 Speaker 4: an age where so few people do read? Is it 453 00:20:44,269 --> 00:20:46,389 Speaker 4: still important or is it just a way of boasting? 454 00:20:46,469 --> 00:20:48,869 Speaker 4: Is it just to thing to boast? About I've raised readers. 455 00:20:49,069 --> 00:20:51,549 Speaker 2: When I was a child, someone asked me why I 456 00:20:51,589 --> 00:20:54,349 Speaker 2: loved reading. I was a massive bookworm, and I still 457 00:20:54,389 --> 00:20:57,429 Speaker 2: remember my answer. Reading is the one place where you 458 00:20:57,509 --> 00:20:59,869 Speaker 2: get to go into another world. And I remember as 459 00:20:59,909 --> 00:21:03,469 Speaker 2: a kid my mind being blown that I could pick 460 00:21:03,549 --> 00:21:08,069 Speaker 2: up a story and be transported into another world. That 461 00:21:08,189 --> 00:21:12,469 Speaker 2: is not something you can get from mindlessly watching Minecraft 462 00:21:12,709 --> 00:21:16,749 Speaker 2: or Gabby's Doghouse. There's such a magic to reading books 463 00:21:16,829 --> 00:21:20,109 Speaker 2: that we might have lost that we probably need to recapture. 464 00:21:20,349 --> 00:21:21,749 Speaker 5: That's hard to describe to a kid. 465 00:21:21,789 --> 00:21:23,869 Speaker 2: It's something that they kind of had to discover on 466 00:21:23,949 --> 00:21:28,149 Speaker 2: their own, but we have to facilitate that discovery. I'm 467 00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:29,949 Speaker 2: sure there's lots of research about why it's good for 468 00:21:29,989 --> 00:21:32,949 Speaker 2: our brains and vocabulary and all the academic stuff, but 469 00:21:33,709 --> 00:21:36,989 Speaker 2: it's also magical in the way that we can discover 470 00:21:37,149 --> 00:21:40,429 Speaker 2: and embed ourselves in stories and understand different perspectives and 471 00:21:40,589 --> 00:21:42,149 Speaker 2: be someone else for a little while. 472 00:21:42,309 --> 00:21:45,149 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're focusing on it being an academic thing or 473 00:21:45,149 --> 00:21:46,829 Speaker 3: something that's going to get us ahead in life, but 474 00:21:46,869 --> 00:21:48,949 Speaker 3: what we're forgetting is the joy and just the enjoyment 475 00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:49,869 Speaker 3: out of reading more. 476 00:21:50,069 --> 00:21:52,269 Speaker 4: I'm going to be the pragmatic one because I was 477 00:21:52,269 --> 00:21:54,309 Speaker 4: not a school captain and say it does get you 478 00:21:54,389 --> 00:21:56,909 Speaker 4: ahead in life. It's worth throwing this researching because it's 479 00:21:56,909 --> 00:22:00,069 Speaker 4: really striking, which is that reading for pleasure is one 480 00:22:00,109 --> 00:22:03,669 Speaker 4: of the strongest predictors of future academic success. And here's 481 00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:06,549 Speaker 4: the really interesting part of that fact. That is true 482 00:22:06,669 --> 00:22:12,109 Speaker 4: regardless of socioeconomic background. So predictors of academic success are 483 00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:15,589 Speaker 4: actually just simply tied to how much money your parents have. 484 00:22:16,229 --> 00:22:20,589 Speaker 4: But this is the one that can catapult people up 485 00:22:20,709 --> 00:22:24,309 Speaker 4: the socioeconomic ladder, and it's reading. It's basically a magic 486 00:22:24,349 --> 00:22:27,189 Speaker 4: bullet for getting ahead in life. I found that really 487 00:22:27,309 --> 00:22:30,549 Speaker 4: sort of galvanizing because it's just so clear this research. 488 00:22:31,189 --> 00:22:34,949 Speaker 4: It got me thinking about how we can implement some 489 00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:37,549 Speaker 4: practical tips to raise readers, because I'm not doing a 490 00:22:37,629 --> 00:22:40,229 Speaker 4: very good job of it myself. There's a former Australian 491 00:22:40,269 --> 00:22:42,349 Speaker 4: Teacher of the Year named Megan Daily. She's written a 492 00:22:42,389 --> 00:22:45,189 Speaker 4: book called Raising Readers about how to instill and I 493 00:22:45,189 --> 00:22:48,069 Speaker 4: thought this word was interesting, a joy of reading in children. 494 00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:50,749 Speaker 4: That word joy is really interesting because so often when 495 00:22:50,749 --> 00:22:53,669 Speaker 4: we have this screens discussion, we're never talking about joy. 496 00:22:53,749 --> 00:22:56,349 Speaker 4: Kids are not driving joy from watching screens. They're just 497 00:22:56,429 --> 00:22:59,869 Speaker 4: basically addicted to them. And she's got lots of practical tips, 498 00:22:59,909 --> 00:23:03,789 Speaker 4: but one that I liked in particular was that she said, 499 00:23:03,789 --> 00:23:05,509 Speaker 4: when your kids are a little bit older and they're 500 00:23:05,549 --> 00:23:09,109 Speaker 4: tackling chapter books, you can just read the first chapter 501 00:23:09,149 --> 00:23:11,349 Speaker 4: of the book with them and then just leave the 502 00:23:11,349 --> 00:23:14,989 Speaker 4: book lying around and then eventually they might pick it 503 00:23:15,109 --> 00:23:17,349 Speaker 4: up if their interest is peaked, and they might read 504 00:23:17,389 --> 00:23:20,469 Speaker 4: the book. And I thought that was a really practical 505 00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:22,509 Speaker 4: way to start raising readers. 506 00:23:22,589 --> 00:23:25,029 Speaker 3: Yeah, this discussion reminded me of an article we have 507 00:23:25,069 --> 00:23:27,429 Speaker 3: on Mama Mia by Zoe Rotchford, and she wrote about 508 00:23:27,429 --> 00:23:29,669 Speaker 3: how she read sixty books in a year with two 509 00:23:29,709 --> 00:23:33,029 Speaker 3: young kids, so she has two under three, and she 510 00:23:33,229 --> 00:23:35,029 Speaker 3: was saying that a lot of it was about doing 511 00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:37,989 Speaker 3: communal reading. So she's like groundbreaking, I know, But go 512 00:23:38,029 --> 00:23:41,029 Speaker 3: to the library because it entertains them, no matter their age, 513 00:23:41,069 --> 00:23:43,509 Speaker 3: to be around the books and picking up those books 514 00:23:43,589 --> 00:23:44,629 Speaker 3: and you can read there. 515 00:23:44,709 --> 00:23:46,349 Speaker 1: You can be modeling it to them there. 516 00:23:46,909 --> 00:23:49,669 Speaker 3: And the other one she was saying was exactly what 517 00:23:49,709 --> 00:23:52,189 Speaker 3: you said about joy, don't finish a book if you're 518 00:23:52,189 --> 00:23:54,549 Speaker 3: not enjoying it, Like, don't be reading books because that's 519 00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:57,069 Speaker 3: the hot new book. Like if you're into Cowboy smart, 520 00:23:57,429 --> 00:23:58,709 Speaker 3: read Cowboy Smart. 521 00:23:58,749 --> 00:24:00,629 Speaker 4: That's where I didn't know that was a genre that. 522 00:24:02,709 --> 00:24:02,989 Speaker 1: Peak. 523 00:24:03,149 --> 00:24:06,189 Speaker 3: Yeah, that should be first on our list. But you know, 524 00:24:06,269 --> 00:24:08,269 Speaker 3: don't worry if you're in a slump, like, don't be 525 00:24:08,309 --> 00:24:10,709 Speaker 3: reading something just because it's seen as the call book 526 00:24:10,829 --> 00:24:13,749 Speaker 3: or the best seller. Pick up something that will instill 527 00:24:13,829 --> 00:24:16,149 Speaker 3: joy in you, and then you can kind of be 528 00:24:16,189 --> 00:24:17,349 Speaker 3: passing doubt that. 529 00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:20,589 Speaker 4: Because then you can also not only you roll modeling 530 00:24:20,589 --> 00:24:23,109 Speaker 4: for your kids and they're seeing you reading books and 531 00:24:23,149 --> 00:24:25,589 Speaker 4: avidly reading books, but you can also teach them that 532 00:24:25,589 --> 00:24:27,789 Speaker 4: they don't have to finish a book that they don't like. Yeah, 533 00:24:27,869 --> 00:24:29,789 Speaker 4: but if you borrow some book from the library that 534 00:24:29,829 --> 00:24:31,749 Speaker 4: you think they're going to love and they just hate them, 535 00:24:31,749 --> 00:24:33,349 Speaker 4: put it down and find something else. 536 00:24:33,469 --> 00:24:33,989 Speaker 1: Exactly. 537 00:24:34,109 --> 00:24:36,389 Speaker 2: The point about them seeing you read books is really 538 00:24:36,429 --> 00:24:39,429 Speaker 2: important and the modeling of it, because in our family life, 539 00:24:39,629 --> 00:24:41,109 Speaker 2: I would often put the kids to bed and then 540 00:24:41,149 --> 00:24:43,109 Speaker 2: go to bed and read it. They would never see 541 00:24:43,149 --> 00:24:44,869 Speaker 2: me read a book because it's something you do alone 542 00:24:44,909 --> 00:24:47,349 Speaker 2: at night in your own bedroom. So what we've done 543 00:24:47,389 --> 00:24:49,029 Speaker 2: in our house is I flipped it and it's this 544 00:24:49,189 --> 00:24:51,829 Speaker 2: habit stacking as well, so when I put my kids 545 00:24:51,829 --> 00:24:54,029 Speaker 2: to bed, I have to stay in the room with them. 546 00:24:54,589 --> 00:24:56,669 Speaker 2: So what I've started doing is I bought an Eaty 547 00:24:56,709 --> 00:24:59,549 Speaker 2: Biddy book light, and I've just every time I put 548 00:24:59,549 --> 00:25:01,509 Speaker 2: them to bed, I lie on the floor and just 549 00:25:01,629 --> 00:25:04,269 Speaker 2: read my book. So they see me reading. And now 550 00:25:04,269 --> 00:25:07,029 Speaker 2: it's become part of our nightly routine. It's like a habit. 551 00:25:07,109 --> 00:25:08,029 Speaker 5: Force to read. 552 00:25:08,309 --> 00:25:08,589 Speaker 1: Great. 553 00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:12,549 Speaker 2: Yeah, the book like costs me like fifteen bucks on Amazon, 554 00:25:12,669 --> 00:25:15,709 Speaker 2: and it's forcing me to read and it's enjoyable, and 555 00:25:15,749 --> 00:25:17,749 Speaker 2: it's also modeling that reading's good. 556 00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:20,789 Speaker 4: All Right, it's time for recommendations, and these are things 557 00:25:20,829 --> 00:25:23,189 Speaker 4: that we're loving or that are making our lives easier. 558 00:25:23,389 --> 00:25:26,349 Speaker 4: And the first one from Stacy today is one that 559 00:25:26,389 --> 00:25:29,469 Speaker 4: I have begged her to bring. It's very much parenting adjacent, 560 00:25:30,069 --> 00:25:32,669 Speaker 4: and it's this. I see Stacy early in the morning 561 00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:35,749 Speaker 4: when we record this, and she always looks pulled together, 562 00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:39,389 Speaker 4: and that's because she's always wearing a very iconic lip. 563 00:25:39,749 --> 00:25:42,029 Speaker 4: And yes, I said lip, like I was a fashion person. 564 00:25:42,069 --> 00:25:45,309 Speaker 4: A lip it's always a singular. It's a singular lip. Stacy, 565 00:25:45,429 --> 00:25:46,349 Speaker 4: tell us your secret. 566 00:25:46,429 --> 00:25:49,629 Speaker 3: Okay, So I actually got this reco from our lifestyle 567 00:25:49,749 --> 00:25:52,269 Speaker 3: editor Amy Clark. I stole it from her because she 568 00:25:52,389 --> 00:25:55,789 Speaker 3: was wearing it. I find lipsticks hard, like I smudge them. 569 00:25:55,829 --> 00:25:57,869 Speaker 3: They end up on my teeth. I don't want to reapply. 570 00:25:58,229 --> 00:26:01,029 Speaker 3: So this one's a lip oil, like a tinted lip POI, 571 00:26:01,109 --> 00:26:05,309 Speaker 3: which just sounds so nice, doesn't Yeah. So it's by Nick, 572 00:26:05,429 --> 00:26:08,509 Speaker 3: So it's called the Nick's Fat Oil Lip Drip, and 573 00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:11,589 Speaker 3: the shade is Newsfeed, which I thought was very appropriate 574 00:26:11,789 --> 00:26:14,469 Speaker 3: for my job. It's twenty bucks, but it's always on sale, 575 00:26:14,469 --> 00:26:16,469 Speaker 3: so I got it for ten bucks in price line. 576 00:26:16,829 --> 00:26:20,949 Speaker 3: But it is just like a nice, soft red And 577 00:26:20,989 --> 00:26:22,869 Speaker 3: when I put it on, you always give me compliments, 578 00:26:22,869 --> 00:26:24,669 Speaker 3: which I love, so I just wear it for you mostly. 579 00:26:24,749 --> 00:26:26,549 Speaker 4: I mean it makes you look like Caate Middleton. 580 00:26:26,709 --> 00:26:29,669 Speaker 1: Thank you? What a compliment. Yeah, so I'll be wearing 581 00:26:29,709 --> 00:26:30,669 Speaker 1: it until the grave. 582 00:26:30,949 --> 00:26:33,789 Speaker 2: Yes, I needed this this week because I discovered that 583 00:26:34,069 --> 00:26:37,629 Speaker 2: my children had found my Shanti Hayley. 584 00:26:37,749 --> 00:26:39,909 Speaker 5: I don't know if I'm saying that right. It's a lipstick. 585 00:26:40,349 --> 00:26:42,869 Speaker 1: It sounds expensive, you're saying it right, I'm not. 586 00:26:42,909 --> 00:26:46,909 Speaker 2: This is a seventy seven dollars that they took and 587 00:26:46,989 --> 00:26:48,229 Speaker 2: painted their faces with it. 588 00:26:49,309 --> 00:26:51,829 Speaker 1: No, Like, why don't you. 589 00:26:51,829 --> 00:26:55,789 Speaker 5: Choose the kmut lipstick. No, just I just can't. 590 00:26:56,189 --> 00:26:58,589 Speaker 2: I can't, So I'll be getting the Nick's Fat Oil 591 00:26:58,669 --> 00:26:59,189 Speaker 2: lip drip. 592 00:26:59,509 --> 00:27:02,029 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great. What's yours this week? 593 00:27:02,149 --> 00:27:04,069 Speaker 5: Mon's okay, little gear change. 594 00:27:04,109 --> 00:27:07,229 Speaker 2: I have a recommendation for a podcast episode this week, 595 00:27:07,469 --> 00:27:09,709 Speaker 2: and I'm going to try and talk about this without crying. 596 00:27:09,869 --> 00:27:13,109 Speaker 5: It's an episode of conversations, and I've. 597 00:27:12,949 --> 00:27:16,069 Speaker 2: Listened to hundreds of episodes of conversations in my life. 598 00:27:16,109 --> 00:27:18,709 Speaker 2: I used to manage that team at the ABC, but 599 00:27:18,749 --> 00:27:21,789 Speaker 2: this one absolutely broke me into a million pieces. It's 600 00:27:22,269 --> 00:27:23,989 Speaker 2: conversations with Paul Field. 601 00:27:24,109 --> 00:27:24,309 Speaker 4: Now. 602 00:27:24,349 --> 00:27:28,029 Speaker 2: He is the former managing director of The Wiggles, so 603 00:27:28,269 --> 00:27:31,429 Speaker 2: the Field family sort of starred the Wiggles. He's been 604 00:27:31,429 --> 00:27:34,509 Speaker 2: a bad call the Cockroaches. He's now an ambassador for 605 00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:36,429 Speaker 2: Sid's Red Nose Day. 606 00:27:36,509 --> 00:27:38,269 Speaker 5: He talks about the loss. 607 00:27:38,069 --> 00:27:41,789 Speaker 2: Of his baby daughter, Bernadette. A trigger warning on this 608 00:27:41,829 --> 00:27:46,349 Speaker 2: The content is hard to listen to. It's just such 609 00:27:46,629 --> 00:27:51,989 Speaker 2: a deeply emotional and moving episode, and he really talks 610 00:27:51,989 --> 00:27:56,029 Speaker 2: about the devastation they felt, but also the compassion shown 611 00:27:56,029 --> 00:27:58,189 Speaker 2: to them by all the people around them. I think 612 00:27:58,189 --> 00:28:01,069 Speaker 2: it's the best episode of conversations I've ever heard and 613 00:28:01,149 --> 00:28:05,709 Speaker 2: in fact, Richard Widler, who hosts Conversations, says, that is 614 00:28:05,749 --> 00:28:12,389 Speaker 2: the saddest thing I have ever heard. Justful, it's important. 615 00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:18,069 Speaker 2: I think it's extraordinary that a man can talk about 616 00:28:18,109 --> 00:28:21,229 Speaker 2: something that happened to him, you know, in the seventies. 617 00:28:21,309 --> 00:28:23,709 Speaker 2: This was and he still talks about it like it 618 00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:29,109 Speaker 2: happened yesterday and it was just so beautiful and moving. 619 00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:31,629 Speaker 5: What about you, Amelia, what are you recommending? 620 00:28:31,829 --> 00:28:36,109 Speaker 4: I've got something that is not moving but is very relaxing. 621 00:28:36,829 --> 00:28:39,229 Speaker 4: Went to Cole's on the weekend and thought it was 622 00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:41,309 Speaker 4: a win because took the kids and they wanted to 623 00:28:41,309 --> 00:28:42,709 Speaker 4: go to the toy shop. But then I said, no, 624 00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:45,549 Speaker 4: we're just going grocery shopping. Now, apparently Cole's has a 625 00:28:45,549 --> 00:28:48,909 Speaker 4: toy aisle. I mean why, But we're walking down this 626 00:28:49,029 --> 00:28:50,909 Speaker 4: toy aisle and I realize I'm not getting out of 627 00:28:50,949 --> 00:28:53,349 Speaker 4: there alive. So I tell them, look, you can pick 628 00:28:53,429 --> 00:28:55,909 Speaker 4: up something that is not primarily made of plastic and 629 00:28:55,949 --> 00:29:00,069 Speaker 4: ideally under twenty dollars. And we pick up the kawaii 630 00:29:00,429 --> 00:29:03,109 Speaker 4: as in the Japanese word for cute, the kawai rock 631 00:29:03,149 --> 00:29:06,549 Speaker 4: painting kit. It is five dollars, and we had some 632 00:29:06,589 --> 00:29:09,109 Speaker 4: of the most fun I've had in ages. It was 633 00:29:09,149 --> 00:29:12,469 Speaker 4: a Saturday afternoon. I put on some fleetwood mac and 634 00:29:12,549 --> 00:29:16,389 Speaker 4: we painted rocks together. Look, the kit does come with rocks, 635 00:29:16,429 --> 00:29:19,269 Speaker 4: but I'm pretty sure if you have children at home, 636 00:29:19,429 --> 00:29:23,349 Speaker 4: they can probably source some mutismal rocks for you to 637 00:29:23,469 --> 00:29:26,709 Speaker 4: add to your collection to paint. And I just went 638 00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:30,109 Speaker 4: completely ham on this. I started painting rocks after the 639 00:29:30,189 --> 00:29:33,869 Speaker 4: kids had gone to bed, and have now considered opening 640 00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:36,029 Speaker 4: a market stall to sell them because I think I 641 00:29:36,069 --> 00:29:37,069 Speaker 4: have kind of a talent. 642 00:29:37,349 --> 00:29:39,669 Speaker 3: Wow, I was gonna say, did you get really possessive 643 00:29:39,709 --> 00:29:43,389 Speaker 3: of the rocks? 644 00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:46,389 Speaker 2: You do with the rocks once you painted them? Do 645 00:29:46,429 --> 00:29:48,069 Speaker 2: you stick the little eyes on them? No? 646 00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:51,029 Speaker 4: You just like put them tastefully around your house. So 647 00:29:51,069 --> 00:29:53,749 Speaker 4: it's true that in Japan you'll see quite often like 648 00:29:53,789 --> 00:29:56,509 Speaker 4: a window sill will have a couple of beautiful rocks 649 00:29:56,549 --> 00:30:00,069 Speaker 4: on it. They're probably not painted the lurid colors that 650 00:30:00,189 --> 00:30:04,029 Speaker 4: I painted mine, But you know what, like, don't mock 651 00:30:04,109 --> 00:30:08,029 Speaker 4: my hobby. Like I love painting. I'm very good at it, 652 00:30:08,269 --> 00:30:10,509 Speaker 4: and because I was in a school cat and I 653 00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:13,549 Speaker 4: do have to embrace these high points when oh. 654 00:30:13,469 --> 00:30:15,429 Speaker 1: We're going to start getting them as gifts from you. 655 00:30:15,509 --> 00:30:18,949 Speaker 4: For Christ, You'd be lucky, Stacey, You'd be lucky. 656 00:30:19,309 --> 00:30:21,949 Speaker 2: I'm laughing because I saw this TikTok this week that 657 00:30:22,069 --> 00:30:22,949 Speaker 2: I laughed out loud. 658 00:30:22,949 --> 00:30:23,989 Speaker 5: It's so hard at it. 659 00:30:23,989 --> 00:30:26,989 Speaker 2: It's about this mum and daughter who play a trick 660 00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:29,749 Speaker 2: on their dad and the daughter gives themm a gift 661 00:30:29,789 --> 00:30:32,949 Speaker 2: and it's a rock wrapped up and they pretend it's 662 00:30:33,029 --> 00:30:35,949 Speaker 2: come from this shop called Anthropology, and they pretend it 663 00:30:36,029 --> 00:30:39,709 Speaker 2: was like this extremely precious, like very expensive rock, and 664 00:30:39,789 --> 00:30:40,989 Speaker 2: the dad's face in the. 665 00:30:40,949 --> 00:30:43,589 Speaker 5: Background is just like I don't get it. 666 00:30:43,629 --> 00:30:45,349 Speaker 2: And then he's like, I could have got you a 667 00:30:45,469 --> 00:30:47,029 Speaker 2: rock like that, Like we have rocks like that in 668 00:30:47,069 --> 00:30:47,469 Speaker 2: the garden. 669 00:30:47,469 --> 00:30:50,989 Speaker 5: And she was like, you don't understand. It's anthropology. 670 00:30:51,389 --> 00:30:54,349 Speaker 2: That's you now, Amelia, just like laying your rocks around 671 00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:58,429 Speaker 2: your house, your precious rocks. Ah, that's all we have 672 00:30:58,509 --> 00:31:00,589 Speaker 2: time for today. Hey, if there's one thing I know 673 00:31:00,669 --> 00:31:04,549 Speaker 2: about podcasts, it's that word of mouth is really the 674 00:31:04,589 --> 00:31:07,229 Speaker 2: way that people discover them. So got a favor to ask, 675 00:31:07,389 --> 00:31:10,949 Speaker 2: if you like this show, tell someone about it because 676 00:31:10,949 --> 00:31:14,189 Speaker 2: people trust other recommendations from other people. And also, here's 677 00:31:14,229 --> 00:31:17,349 Speaker 2: the other thing, there's some statistic where people listen to 678 00:31:17,869 --> 00:31:20,909 Speaker 2: eight podcasts a week and people are always searching for 679 00:31:20,989 --> 00:31:23,829 Speaker 2: new ones to discover, so new good ones. So if 680 00:31:23,869 --> 00:31:26,629 Speaker 2: you tell just one person about parenting out Loud, we 681 00:31:26,709 --> 00:31:29,949 Speaker 2: would love that big. Thanks to our team Junior content 682 00:31:29,989 --> 00:31:33,949 Speaker 2: Producer Tessa Kotovic, our senior producer Leah Porges and Executive 683 00:31:33,949 --> 00:31:36,869 Speaker 2: producer Sashatanic and the group ep At Mum and Maya 684 00:31:36,949 --> 00:31:39,709 Speaker 2: Is Ruth Debne. Have a great week. We'll be back 685 00:31:39,749 --> 00:31:41,469 Speaker 2: in the Speed next Saturday morning. 686 00:31:41,629 --> 00:31:44,389 Speaker 4: Go paint some rocks by By