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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma mea podcast. MoMA Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Hi everyone, it's Mia Friedman from our

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Speaker 1: sister podcast Out Loud. We just wanted to drop this

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Speaker 1: special episode that we've recorded into the quickie feed for

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Speaker 1: you so that you can hear all the details around

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Speaker 1: this big story that The New York Times broke about

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Speaker 1: Blake Lively against Justin Baldoni, her co star on It

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Speaker 1: Ends with Us. This isn't just a story about Hollywood

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Speaker 1: or gossip or two celebrities. It's a story about manipulation,

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Speaker 1: about what a crisis pr manager can do, and about

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Speaker 1: the dark arts on the Internet that is actually manipulating

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Speaker 1: public opinion and resulting in some pretty extraordinary cancelations. Enjoy

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Speaker 1: this episode and have a happy holidays.

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Speaker 2: Hello out Loud. It's Monday, the twenty third of December,

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Speaker 2: and I'm Holly Wainwright.

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Speaker 3: I'm me of Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and we

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Speaker 3: were not meant to be here right now, but alas.

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Speaker 2: We are here because we can bury anyone inside a

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Speaker 2: Hollywood smear machine that is The New York Times headline

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Speaker 2: that meant, we definitely had to be here right now,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens, because you might remember, you definitely remember bits

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Speaker 2: of it. It was one of the stories of the

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Speaker 2: year that one of the most watched movies of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four, It Ends with Us, came alongside the mass

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Speaker 2: cancelation of its star, Blake Lively. The prestore that accompanied

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Speaker 2: that movie was notable for the fact that the star

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Speaker 2: and producer Lively and its other star and director, Justin Baldoni,

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Speaker 2: went to great and unusual lengths not to be seen together,

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Speaker 2: to be interviewed together, to show any of the usual

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Speaker 2: camaraderie required of co creators of a big film Lively.

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Speaker 2: The rumors went on to promote the movie as if

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Speaker 2: it were a flowery rom com. Baldoni supposedly loudly insisted

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Speaker 2: that he wanted its serious subject matter, coercive control and

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Speaker 2: domestic violence, to be front and center. Lively was criticized

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Speaker 2: for trivializing a serious topic, for being a tone death

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Speaker 2: self promoter, for launching a haircare brand. The backlash was huge,

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Speaker 2: and then yesterday The New York Times reported that Lively

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Speaker 2: is taking legal action against Baldoni accusing him of sexual

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Speaker 2: harassment and an effort to destroy her reputation. It's a

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Speaker 2: story that has massive implications for I'd say almost every

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Speaker 2: celebrity story you see on the internet. Mia, What did

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Speaker 2: the story the one with the we can bury anyone

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Speaker 2: headline allege?

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Speaker 1: I think Jesse's going to take us through some of

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Speaker 1: the allegations in more detail, but overall, it alleged serious

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Speaker 1: misconduct on the set. Now, what's important to understand is

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Speaker 1: that Justin was not only the director and the producer

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Speaker 1: and the co star, he also was a co owner

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Speaker 1: of the studio that was making the film, So even

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Speaker 1: though Blake Lively was more famous, he had huge power

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Speaker 1: in the context of making this film. So it alleged

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment. And then also it detailed that when Blake

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Speaker 1: Lively complained about it and insisted on a meeting with

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Speaker 1: all the stakeholders before she returned to filming in January

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Speaker 1: this year, after the writers' strike, Justin Baldoni hired a

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Speaker 1: crisis pr to smear her, which we're also going to

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Speaker 1: get into in a moment. But let's just rewind to

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Speaker 1: August to remind ourselves what this movie was about and

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Speaker 1: why there was so much controversy when it was released

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Speaker 1: because it was only released a few months ago and

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Speaker 1: it's about to come onto streaming, or I think it's

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Speaker 1: just come on to streaming. The movie is based on

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Speaker 1: the Colleen Hoover book that was also called It Ends

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Speaker 1: with Us, and it tells the story of a florist

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Speaker 1: called Lily Bloom played by Lively, who navigates the romance

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Speaker 1: with a neurosurgeon called Ryle Kincaid that becomes abusive. That's

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Speaker 1: the essence of the film. The three of us went

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Speaker 1: to see it, it was already completely swamped in controversy.

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Speaker 1: I really liked the film. I thought Blake Lively was fantastic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was not the best film in the world,

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Speaker 1: but I thought it was really good. And I was

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Speaker 1: surprised at the controversy that had completely engulfed this film.

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Speaker 1: It seemed really out of whack. So what was the controversy. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a few different elements to it, but it was

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Speaker 1: basically all about Blake Lively being inappropriate during the promotional

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Speaker 1: part of the tour. So it wasn't about the actual

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Speaker 1: movie itself. It was about how it was promoted. There

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Speaker 1: was an interview where she encouraged fans to grab your friends,

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Speaker 1: wear your florals, and head out to see it, which

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Speaker 1: kind of suggested that it was a lighthearted viewing experience.

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Speaker 1: There was no trigger warning at the beginning of it,

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Speaker 1: so there was a whole, big debate about trigger warnings,

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Speaker 1: and the whole marketing campaign was criticized as tone death

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Speaker 1: given how serious the themes were in the movie about

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Speaker 1: domestic abuse, and that all landed on Blake Lively. Now,

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Speaker 1: there were some things she did during the tour that

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Speaker 1: particularly made her target of criticism, Like she was launching

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Speaker 1: a hair care line at the time. She also promoted

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Speaker 1: her beverage brand, which was called Betty Booze, and many

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Speaker 1: people said that alcohol is often connected with domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: so that's insensitive, and so it was seen that she

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Speaker 1: was just not taking it seriously, which led to this

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Speaker 1: big backlash against her. And you'd have to say, one

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Speaker 1: of the worst cancelations that we've seen in a long

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Speaker 1: time for reasons that seemed really spurious.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, because back at the time we talked

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Speaker 3: about it and it felt as though the facts we

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Speaker 3: had in front of us were not proportionate to the

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Speaker 3: avalanche of hate that Blake Lively was getting, particularly on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's because that's where I leave most of the time,

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Speaker 3: and we were getting these leaks. So the leaks that

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Speaker 3: we were getting were that there was something that said

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Speaker 3: Justin Baldoni lingered too long on a kiss, he asked

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Speaker 3: how much she weighed because he had a former back

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Speaker 3: injury and was worried about picking her up, like weird,

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Speaker 3: weird stuff.

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Speaker 1: None of those took hold, so there were a few

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Speaker 1: rumors of was it uncomfortable on set. The other thing

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Speaker 1: that really came out was Blake had taken over and

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Speaker 1: she'd insisted on doing her own edit that somehow Ryan

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Speaker 1: Reynolds got involved and was rewriting a few scenes. So

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Speaker 1: the image that came across through the press tour was

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Speaker 1: that she was not taking it seriously, was dominating an

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Speaker 1: a diva on set, and that he was a victim

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Speaker 1: of all this. Because, in case you're not familiar with

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Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni, his most famous role as an actor was

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Speaker 1: in Jane the Virgin, and he really sushioned himself over

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Speaker 1: the last few years as a feminist and as he

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Speaker 1: has a podcast called Man Enough where he questions toxic masculinity.

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Speaker 2: He had a viral ted talk about it like he's

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Speaker 2: very much he's.

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Speaker 1: That guy, a champion of women. That was his vibe.

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Speaker 2: And among all these rumors, what was very clear the

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Speaker 2: whole like smoke Fire thing is that they had definitely

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Speaker 2: fallen out. There was no question about that. You know,

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Speaker 2: the other cast members had stopped following him on Instagram

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Speaker 2: and seemed to very much be siding with her. As

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Speaker 2: I said at the beginning, they weren't photographed together, they

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Speaker 2: didn't do any promo. It was kind of like dueling

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Speaker 2: press tours, which is very unusual.

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Speaker 3: And Baldoni at the time he spoke to Today and

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Speaker 3: obviously addressing some of their creative differences, and he said,

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Speaker 3: I'm a best idea wins person and I always have

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Speaker 3: been to a fault, sometimes to a point where at

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Speaker 3: times I think I've had people wonder if I know

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Speaker 3: what I'm doing or if I have a point of view,

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Speaker 3: because I'm so willing to have my vision changed. I

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Speaker 3: don't believe that inspirational creativity comes through one person. On

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Speaker 3: the night of the premiere, he was saying, this isn't

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Speaker 3: about me, It's a night for Blake, it's for Colleen.

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Speaker 3: I'm so grateful we're here, and again it was clear

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Speaker 3: that neither of those women were speaking to him.

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Speaker 2: What happened on the weekend is that Blake Lively has

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Speaker 2: filed a legal complaint that presents her side of the

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Speaker 2: story to all of the things that we were just discussing,

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Speaker 2: and Jesse's going to tell us about them in a minute,

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Speaker 2: but first short break.

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Speaker 3: So, the allegations of misconduct on set are pretty damning.

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Speaker 3: In terms of physical boundaries and violations. There are allegations

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Speaker 3: that he improvised unwanted kissing scenes. He would enter this

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Speaker 3: is Baldoni would enter her makeup trailer uninvited while she

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Speaker 3: was undressed, including while she was breastfeeding. In terms of

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Speaker 3: sexual harassment, Baldoni and Jamie Heath, he was a producer

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Speaker 3: and co owner, there are allegations that they would describe

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Speaker 3: their genitalia on set. Baldoni would frequently refer to his

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Speaker 3: past porn addiction and describe previous sexual encounters where he

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Speaker 3: said he may or may not have received consent. Now

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Speaker 3: we know that Lively made a series of requests part

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Speaker 3: way through filming. They actually had this all hands meeting,

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Speaker 3: which included her husband, Ryan Reynolds, and it was held

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Speaker 3: to address Baldoni and Jamie Heath's alleged inappropriate conduct.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, this was interesting because this was like she

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Speaker 1: had Ryan there as her support person, and it was

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Speaker 1: after the Writer's strike, so they'd only been filming for

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Speaker 1: six weeks then that was the writer's strike and she

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Speaker 1: had this meeting and she said, I'm not coming back

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Speaker 1: unless we have this meeting. She included Sony who's the distributor,

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Speaker 1: and all these different people, So there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people at that meeting, which means that there will

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Speaker 1: be a lot of you know, and none of this

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Speaker 1: is was disputed at the time.

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Speaker 3: So there was a list of thirty things. They're quite

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Speaker 3: revealing some of Lively's requests, and these were, as you say,

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Speaker 3: they were confirmed because it's a document. Her request were

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Speaker 3: that Baldoni would stop asking her about religious beliefs, stop

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Speaker 3: asking her trainer about her weight she was four months

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Speaker 3: postpartum with her fourth baby, and stop claiming to be

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Speaker 3: able to speak to her dead father. There are allegations

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Speaker 3: that Baldoni improvised while on set, so in one scene

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Speaker 3: they weren't miked up it was just to be filmed,

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Speaker 3: It was just a visual scene, and Lively claims that

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Speaker 3: as himself, Baldoni leaned in and slowly dragged his lips

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Speaker 3: from her ear to her neck and said, it smells

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Speaker 3: so good. It says that when Lively objected to his actions,

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Speaker 3: Baldoni retorted, I'm not even attracted to you. Baldoni added,

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Speaker 3: this is an allegation improvised sexual content and nude scenes,

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Speaker 3: and he fought to have a scene where the character

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Speaker 3: does climax at the same time on their wedding night,

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Speaker 3: and told Lively that he and his partner always did

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Speaker 3: and allegedly pressed her on whether that was the case

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Speaker 3: with her husband, and she says she was very uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: by that conversation. There's an allegation about the childbirth scene

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Speaker 3: which is particularly unsettling. It wasn't agreed that she would

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Speaker 3: be naked for it, but then when she got on set,

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Speaker 3: she says that he insisted she be naked. They compromised

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Speaker 3: that she would be naked from the waist down, but

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Speaker 3: the set wasn't closed and in the end his friend

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Speaker 3: came in to play the role of the obgyn.

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Speaker 1: I think this is possibly the most chilling thing because

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Speaker 1: what's so illuminating about reading will link to it if

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Speaker 1: anybody wants to look at it, which I think you should.

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Speaker 1: But you learn a lot about Hollywood and how sex

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Speaker 1: scenes work, right, And there are things like nudity writers

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Speaker 1: where everybody agrees what the parameters before you go into

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Speaker 1: a scene. Things like closed sets when there's nudity, so

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Speaker 1: only a cent people are there, Monitors are turned off

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Speaker 1: so other people can't look from other rooms and even

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Speaker 1: film you. So she was in stirrups. She had a

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Speaker 1: little bit of fabric just literally covering her and the

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Speaker 1: role of the gynecologist. They were like between her legs.

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Speaker 1: And also another owner of his studio, Wayfarer, had just

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Speaker 1: flown in to visit the set on that day for

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Speaker 1: the first time. Like it is so gross and creepy.

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Speaker 2: It also is clearly from this very long list of

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Speaker 2: requests clear that this set was a shit show, right

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Speaker 2: because one of them is also stop having hours long

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Speaker 2: meetings where Baldoni cries and no more pressing from Baldoni

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Speaker 2: to sage any of Blake Live's employees, Like this is

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Speaker 2: batshit what's going on on that set? And it seems

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Speaker 2: that she's very much trying to say, let's get back

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Speaker 2: to a professional set.

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Speaker 3: And they're at claims as well that when you know

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Speaker 3: there were certain moments where Lively was made feel uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: other women from the set came up and said, I've

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Speaker 3: also had that experience. So the allegations are that it

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Speaker 3: was not just her, she was trying to protect the

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Speaker 3: whole set. The last thing I'll say, and I could

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Speaker 3: go on and on about what's in this complaint, but

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Speaker 3: the last thing is she alleges that there was a

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Speaker 3: clear marketing plan that was distributed to the cast and

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Speaker 3: everyone involved in marketing it about how to promote the film.

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Speaker 3: This was from Sony and they said they wanted to

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Speaker 3: focus on hope and resilience and not position this as

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Speaker 3: a domestic violence film. They say that Baldoni went against this,

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Speaker 3: and that's massive because at the time everyone was going,

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Speaker 3: why is she not acknowledging that this is a film

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Speaker 3: about domestic violence. Baldoni was over here with a link

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Speaker 3: in his Instagram bio to help victims. Everything he said

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Speaker 3: in his messaging was acknowledging victims, and this made Lively

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Speaker 3: look really bad.

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Speaker 2: As it turns out, or at least. What's alleged here

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Speaker 2: is that that Pivot Jesse was a very deliberate one

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Speaker 2: to smear Blake Lively because Baldoni and his team knew

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Speaker 2: what was coming so to the smear campaign and why

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Speaker 2: I say that this is a story that's not just

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Speaker 2: about Blake Lively and just In Baldoni, but gives an

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Speaker 2: insight into what is really behind a lot of what

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Speaker 2: we believe right on social media. So all those tiktoks

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Speaker 2: and stories that we talked about at the beginning that

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Speaker 2: were being shared and reshared as facts that Lively was

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Speaker 2: a mean girl, that Lively tried to hijack the movie,

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Speaker 2: that Lively just wanted to promote a haircare brand. What's

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Speaker 2: alleged in this document is there was nothing organic about

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Speaker 2: those stories, and that the PR firm hired by Baldoni

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Speaker 2: when he realized that Reynolds had blocked him on Instagram. Baldonian,

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Speaker 2: his producing partner, hired this firm who were expert in

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Speaker 2: the dark arts of smearing, starting rumors and fanning the

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Speaker 2: flames of negativity. Some of the tactics that are alleged

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Speaker 2: to a PA opened ah that the PR team would

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Speaker 2: boost negative stories about lively, branding her as difficult and

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Speaker 2: tone deaf. That contractors were allegedly hired to dominate social

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Speaker 2: media with untraceable tactics like social manipulation and proactive fan posting.

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Speaker 2: A hired gun helped amplify negative narratives online, including on

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Speaker 2: platforms like TikTok and Reddit, and basically all these threads

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Speaker 2: of theories started being sown and then amplified. Now it's

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Speaker 2: actually impossible, even by the investigative journalists at The New

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Speaker 2: York Times and actually by the legal team to be

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Speaker 2: able to absolutely identify exactly what the amplification did. As

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Speaker 2: we know, the Internet is sprawling and enormous, but the

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Speaker 2: negative stories that were planted were planted very deliberately and

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Speaker 2: then encouraged. So this tells you everything about how we

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Speaker 2: the public were manipulated in this story.

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Speaker 3: In August, there were two things we talked about. The

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Speaker 3: first was something that we've referred to as the dig,

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Speaker 3: which is what happens when someone is in the process

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Speaker 3: of cancelation, and we were saying that it's again back

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Speaker 3: to it being disproportionate. Is that people started yelling about

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Speaker 3: her plantation wedding, about how Reynolds cheated on Scarlet Your

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Speaker 3: Handsome with Lively, how she's always been rude. Everyone on

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Speaker 3: Gossip Girl hated her. There were weird videos of people

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Speaker 3: gifting her a bracelet on a red carpet and she

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Speaker 3: would not accept it, or something like.

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Speaker 1: The one that got the most traction was and I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking at the time, this is weird. Without wanting

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Speaker 1: to we definitely had our doubts and we spoke about

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Speaker 1: this on the show, as did others. That interview with

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Speaker 1: a Swedish journalist entertainment journalist called Christie Flaher which came

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Speaker 1: out where it showed her interviewing Blake Lively for a

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Speaker 1: different movie I think back in twenty fifteen, and it

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Speaker 1: showed Blake being a little bit rude, and for some

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Speaker 1: reason she posted that with the headline the interview that

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Speaker 1: made me want to quit my job. That was in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. That interview happened, and yet it came out.

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Speaker 1: Now why did it come out? Well, you could say

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Speaker 1: that organically that journalist was just trying to ride the

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Speaker 1: wave of hate against Blake Lively. But what was revealed

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Speaker 1: in this was that this journalist had worked with the

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Speaker 1: PR company before because they'd also represented Johnny Depp in

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Speaker 1: his trial against Amber Heard, and we know that some

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Speaker 1: really dodgy things happened then, in terms of how Amber

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Speaker 1: Heard was trolled and the volume of Internet hate towards her,

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Speaker 1: so much of which was seen to be manufactured. So again,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't organic. And there's a word called astroturfing, which

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Speaker 1: I learned, which is basically means you think something is

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Speaker 1: organic it looks like natural grass, but when you look closer,

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Speaker 1: you see that it's artificial. And what that means is

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Speaker 1: that these things are planted and then amplified, either by

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Speaker 1: bots or by these agencies. That's what they do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So in terms of being planted, I think that's

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Speaker 3: an important point because in the investigation it sort of

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Speaker 3: said this isn't bots. I always imagined it was bots.

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Speaker 3: But at the time, I was posting on TikTok about

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Speaker 3: the Blake Lively thing, and I was noticing that every

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Speaker 3: time I posted something that was defensive, it got no reach.

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Speaker 3: So I remember talking about this on the show only

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Speaker 3: a few hundred views, and then I posted one thing

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Speaker 3: that was cheeky that had like a something about Blake

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Speaker 3: Lively's cancelation. It actually went against it, but all the

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Speaker 3: metadata would have suggested that I was about to go

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Speaker 3: her blew up and it seemed that if you were

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Speaker 3: being critical of Blake Lively, your content was on steroids.

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Speaker 3: As someone who consumes a lot of social media content,

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Speaker 3: it is not often that you get a unanimous view

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Speaker 3: on anything, but you went onto these media platforms and

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it was like wall to wall.

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Speaker 3: Everyone hated her. And let's be clear, if you saw

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Speaker 3: someone pop up and have a go at Blake Lively,

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Speaker 3: that was probably legitimate. But where they were getting the information,

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Speaker 3: how their brain had been marinating in content kind of

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Speaker 3: contributed to that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it creates a lens. And I should say, Christy

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Speaker 1: Flower has come out and said she has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the alleged smear campaign, but she was exactly

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Speaker 1: what you were talking about, Jesse. She was being opportunistic. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So we live in the attention economy and if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to go viral, everybody looks at the numbers who

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Speaker 1: makes content and in the media, So you knew that

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Speaker 1: if you did something that was against Blake Lively, it

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Speaker 1: would go off. So it's important to understand how something

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Speaker 1: can be both organic and manipulated because people will say,

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Speaker 1: but hang on Blake Lively. They didn't make her try

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Speaker 1: and promote her hair care line, they didn't make her

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Speaker 1: reference alcohol, they didn't make her wear florals. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is that's it's the volume. So you can start

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Speaker 1: to believe, oh, everybody hates Blake Lively, and when you

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Speaker 1: hear enough of that, it does impact on how you

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Speaker 1: view someone.

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Speaker 3: And there was also I remember looking at interviews where

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Speaker 3: she seemed really insensitive about the subject matter of the film,

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Speaker 3: but it was so purposefully cut, and if you watch

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Speaker 3: the whole interview, that's not how it seemed. And then

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Speaker 3: you were getting Justin Baldoni with these incredible cuts of

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Speaker 3: him saying something really eloquent about domestic violence. So it

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Speaker 3: did seem that, yeah, I suppose that that is allegedly

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Speaker 3: part of the smearing.

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Speaker 2: This is where we can bury anyone. Headline comes in

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Speaker 2: because in the New York Times investigation, there are literal

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Speaker 2: screenshots of text messages between Baldoni's people and the PR

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Speaker 2: people saying exactly that that they can bury anybody with

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00:21:07,334 --> 00:21:10,014
Speaker 2: enough ammunition, and that they needed to do it to

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Speaker 2: get Baldoni's story across we're going to be back in

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Speaker 2: a minute, but first a little break.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the effect of how cancelation

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Speaker 1: works and how it can be manipulated, because, having experienced

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Speaker 1: it a number of times organically, certainly not to my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: with a calculated or paid smear campaign by a publicist,

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Speaker 1: things gained traction. And then everybody wants to be part

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Speaker 1: of a pylon, right, That's why it's called a dog

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Speaker 1: pile or a pylon, and there becomes status in reinforcing

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Speaker 1: the accepted narrative, which in this case was that Justin

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Speaker 1: Baldoni was a hero and cared about domestic violence victims,

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Speaker 1: and Blake Lively was an entitled diva who cared about

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Speaker 1: nothing other than her hair and looking pretty.

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Speaker 2: And because of that that sort of narrative about who

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Speaker 2: Blake Lively was a prime candidate for this, right, Because

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Speaker 2: the thing that's very depressing about this story is that

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Speaker 2: we're all being manipulated all the time right on social media,

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Speaker 2: and we think we're having our own thoughts about things

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Speaker 2: and going, yes, I see, but what this shows very

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Speaker 2: clearly is that we're being As Lively said in her

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Speaker 2: statement about it, she said she wanted to show behind

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Speaker 2: the curtain of how these things start. But one of

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Speaker 2: the things that we've got to ask ourselves is why

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Speaker 2: are we so invested in thinking awful things about women?

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Speaker 2: And women like Lively? You know she in particular, I

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Speaker 2: guess she is blonde and beautiful, married to a rich man.

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Speaker 1: She is a striver.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about on this show lots of times. Is

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Speaker 2: the worst thing you can be. She has her own businesses,

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Speaker 2: she tries really hard, like she promoted the shit out

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Speaker 2: of that movie. And it's almost like the world was

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Speaker 2: dying to believe this about her, which is one of

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Speaker 2: the things I find deeply depressing about it.

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Speaker 3: And that's what the crisis pr person behind all of

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Speaker 3: this actually said in one of the And the reason

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Speaker 3: we have these texts, I should say, is because they

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Speaker 3: were subpoened. So it's the genius of Blake Lively and

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Speaker 3: all of this is to go. I'm going to get

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Speaker 3: all the evidence I need to show what really happened,

401
00:23:24,614 --> 00:23:28,774
Speaker 3: which is that you have Melissa Nathan saying basically, I

402
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Speaker 3: can't believe how quickly people just want to hate a woman.

403
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Speaker 3: I'm seeing all this positive justin Baldoni's stuff, and I

404
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Speaker 3: don't even.

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Speaker 1: Agree with half of it.

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Speaker 3: So it was like they lit the fire and then

407
00:23:40,734 --> 00:23:42,854
Speaker 3: when it blew up, they didn't need to do a

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Speaker 3: thing because people want to hate a woman. And the

409
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Speaker 3: irony of this entire story is that it's an allegory

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Speaker 3: for domestic violence in the context of a film about

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Speaker 3: domestic violence, which is that people were so ready to

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Speaker 3: jump on a woman who maybe didn't use the right words,

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Speaker 3: or was profiting or something. And except that this man

414
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Speaker 3: was a feminist ally, it's almost Shakespearean in that in

415
00:24:17,734 --> 00:24:20,454
Speaker 3: order to defend his image as a feminist ally he

416
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Speaker 3: had to bury a female co star. And we were

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Speaker 3: so happy to follow him there and to go not

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Speaker 3: only follow him there, like we didn't look at all

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Speaker 3: the facts, which is that none of the cast were

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Speaker 3: on speaking terms with him anymore Colleen who all on

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Speaker 3: her side, yes, And we were so happy to follow

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Speaker 3: him there. And I think that there's a difference between

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Speaker 3: doing something and expressing the doing of something. This speaks

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Speaker 3: to something that feels very very true, which is that

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Speaker 3: there are people who use the right words, who have

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00:24:56,814 --> 00:25:00,614
Speaker 3: the right link in their Instagram bio, but that is

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00:25:00,654 --> 00:25:04,454
Speaker 3: not the same as being the thing you're purporting to being,

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Speaker 3: which is that he's saying he supports women and that

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Speaker 3: this or it was really important to him. It's just

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Speaker 3: an incredible, like look at potential. If it's true hypocrisy.

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Speaker 2: I think this story has many places to go. And

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Speaker 2: today one of the PR wizards involved in this, Jennifer Abel,

433
00:25:26,854 --> 00:25:29,854
Speaker 2: has some messages that are allegedly from her who's saying

434
00:25:29,854 --> 00:25:32,094
Speaker 2: that those messages that we were just talking about, Jesse

435
00:25:32,654 --> 00:25:35,014
Speaker 2: were cherry picked and that you didn't see others. And

436
00:25:35,054 --> 00:25:37,214
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's true. So there's many more places to go.

437
00:25:37,654 --> 00:25:41,014
Speaker 2: But your point, Jesse is so spot on because I

438
00:25:41,054 --> 00:25:42,654
Speaker 2: remember at the time a lot of people have a

439
00:25:42,654 --> 00:25:45,214
Speaker 2: lot of love for Baldoni and he was seen to

440
00:25:45,214 --> 00:25:48,214
Speaker 2: be doing all the right things. But I'll just listened

441
00:25:48,214 --> 00:25:50,054
Speaker 2: to the interview with him that he did on how

442
00:25:50,054 --> 00:25:53,734
Speaker 2: to Fail with Elizabeth Day, and the guy, I'm sorry,

443
00:25:53,814 --> 00:25:57,174
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say it is insufferable, like he

444
00:25:57,254 --> 00:26:01,854
Speaker 2: is insufferable. He doesn't obviously go to Lively in that interview,

445
00:26:02,054 --> 00:26:06,134
Speaker 2: and it happened before the legal letter, but he described

446
00:26:06,174 --> 00:26:08,854
Speaker 2: the filming as devastatingly difficult for a number of reasons,

447
00:26:09,774 --> 00:26:11,454
Speaker 2: very clear on the record, that he thought there should

448
00:26:11,454 --> 00:26:13,774
Speaker 2: have been a trigger warning, like it was very clear.

449
00:26:14,534 --> 00:26:17,534
Speaker 1: But the whole feeling about it.

450
00:26:17,894 --> 00:26:21,654
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Day barely gets a word in, is that he

451
00:26:21,774 --> 00:26:26,214
Speaker 2: was lecturing about victimhood. And we are always saying that

452
00:26:26,254 --> 00:26:29,094
Speaker 2: we want men to talk about domestic violence, and we do,

453
00:26:29,574 --> 00:26:33,254
Speaker 2: but we want men to talk to men about domestic violence.

454
00:26:33,774 --> 00:26:38,134
Speaker 2: We don't want them to lecture women about it. And

455
00:26:38,174 --> 00:26:40,214
Speaker 2: I know people have problems with the movie, and people

456
00:26:40,254 --> 00:26:42,814
Speaker 2: have problems with the source material of the book, but

457
00:26:42,974 --> 00:26:45,334
Speaker 2: this movie was aimed at women. The book was aimed

458
00:26:45,334 --> 00:26:48,374
Speaker 2: at women, right. It's the way that they chose to

459
00:26:48,454 --> 00:26:51,534
Speaker 2: promote it that Baldoni then flipped in order to virtue

460
00:26:51,574 --> 00:26:54,454
Speaker 2: signal because he knew basically that he was going to

461
00:26:54,454 --> 00:26:57,134
Speaker 2: be taken down. What's also interested in all this is

462
00:26:57,174 --> 00:27:00,574
Speaker 2: that Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively and the power that

463
00:27:00,614 --> 00:27:02,934
Speaker 2: they wield in Hollywood is probably always going to come

464
00:27:02,974 --> 00:27:06,054
Speaker 2: for him, right, So he knew that was coming, so

465
00:27:06,094 --> 00:27:11,134
Speaker 2: he wanted to position himself as the perfect an advocate,

466
00:27:11,614 --> 00:27:15,934
Speaker 2: and he's there lecturing women about victimhood and violence. That's

467
00:27:15,974 --> 00:27:18,814
Speaker 2: not what we want from the guys. I mean, I

468
00:27:19,654 --> 00:27:20,894
Speaker 2: can't speak for all women.

469
00:27:20,734 --> 00:27:22,734
Speaker 1: But can we talk you about timing for a second,

470
00:27:22,734 --> 00:27:25,574
Speaker 1: because it's pretty sobering to go online and look at

471
00:27:25,614 --> 00:27:29,334
Speaker 1: some of the reactions to this, where people are just

472
00:27:30,014 --> 00:27:31,974
Speaker 1: they want to twist it and still make it about

473
00:27:31,974 --> 00:27:37,294
Speaker 1: Blake and they're not interested in facts or perspectives. Why now,

474
00:27:37,934 --> 00:27:41,694
Speaker 1: Why now? It's pre Christmas. Some people have said, well,

475
00:27:41,734 --> 00:27:44,534
Speaker 1: it's just come out on Netflix. It's a calculated move.

476
00:27:45,254 --> 00:27:48,134
Speaker 1: She wants to just try and salvage the damage to

477
00:27:48,174 --> 00:27:52,294
Speaker 1: her reputation. But she didn't say anything back then like this,

478
00:27:52,854 --> 00:27:55,974
Speaker 1: everyone had forgotten about it. Essentially, she'd come back.

479
00:27:56,334 --> 00:27:59,734
Speaker 3: Why now, it would have been totally lost. If she

480
00:27:59,814 --> 00:28:02,414
Speaker 3: said something back then, she would have sounded And this

481
00:28:02,494 --> 00:28:06,014
Speaker 3: is also such a great example of gas lighting. She

482
00:28:06,134 --> 00:28:09,054
Speaker 3: would have been told she was crazy. If she said

483
00:28:09,094 --> 00:28:13,094
Speaker 3: at the time that there is a manufactured effort to

484
00:28:13,174 --> 00:28:17,614
Speaker 3: bury me, people would have gone, you are grasping, how embarrassing,

485
00:28:17,734 --> 00:28:19,414
Speaker 3: blah blah blah.

486
00:28:18,854 --> 00:28:20,974
Speaker 1: And that she was making it all about her instead

487
00:28:20,974 --> 00:28:23,654
Speaker 1: of centering the centering victims.

488
00:28:23,654 --> 00:28:25,734
Speaker 3: It's about to come out on Netflix. I'm not sure

489
00:28:25,734 --> 00:28:27,814
Speaker 3: if that's just in the US or if that's here too.

490
00:28:28,094 --> 00:28:31,814
Speaker 3: And just in the last week I started seeing stories

491
00:28:31,854 --> 00:28:34,734
Speaker 3: about Blake Lively pop up again. I saw a story

492
00:28:34,854 --> 00:28:38,294
Speaker 3: about something Ryan Reynolds had said about how he and

493
00:28:38,374 --> 00:28:40,774
Speaker 3: Blake grew up working class, and then people were going

494
00:28:40,814 --> 00:28:43,814
Speaker 3: into Blake Lively's childhood.

495
00:28:43,174 --> 00:28:44,654
Speaker 1: And going, that's not working class.

496
00:28:44,694 --> 00:28:45,414
Speaker 3: How embarrassing.

497
00:28:46,214 --> 00:28:46,374
Speaker 1: Ah?

498
00:28:46,574 --> 00:28:51,414
Speaker 3: Yeah, were they anticipating another wave? That's a question. And

499
00:28:51,454 --> 00:28:55,134
Speaker 3: the other reason why I think it's now is because

500
00:28:55,414 --> 00:28:58,654
Speaker 3: of how long this takes. In order to do this properly,

501
00:28:59,214 --> 00:29:03,334
Speaker 3: in order to get lawyers do the research subpoena, those

502
00:29:03,654 --> 00:29:09,374
Speaker 3: text messages prove it, they needed to buide their time.

503
00:29:09,614 --> 00:29:13,614
Speaker 3: And it's important to remember Blake Lively is worth about

504
00:29:13,654 --> 00:29:18,534
Speaker 3: thirty million dollars. She's rich, but she's not like the

505
00:29:18,614 --> 00:29:21,654
Speaker 3: richest person in Hollywood. Ryan Reynolds is worth more than

506
00:29:21,694 --> 00:29:23,854
Speaker 3: three hundred million because he has all of these business

507
00:29:23,934 --> 00:29:24,654
Speaker 3: ventures right.

508
00:29:24,974 --> 00:29:27,334
Speaker 2: And also intensely well connected.

509
00:29:27,934 --> 00:29:31,254
Speaker 3: Yes, so I think it took because you can look

510
00:29:31,294 --> 00:29:34,894
Speaker 3: at this case and go, what does Blake Lively want?

511
00:29:34,974 --> 00:29:37,134
Speaker 3: This isn't going to be about damages, This isn't about

512
00:29:37,214 --> 00:29:41,294
Speaker 3: sending Justin Baldoni to jail, like, nothing about that.

513
00:29:41,334 --> 00:29:41,934
Speaker 1: Not criminal.

514
00:29:42,014 --> 00:29:45,254
Speaker 3: She wants to correct the record. And in order you

515
00:29:45,374 --> 00:29:47,094
Speaker 3: need to have power, and you need to have the

516
00:29:47,134 --> 00:29:50,214
Speaker 3: financial means and she does, and I think that's why

517
00:29:50,214 --> 00:29:55,254
Speaker 3: she's doing it, because imagine how many actresses have been

518
00:29:55,334 --> 00:29:58,094
Speaker 3: buried and have never been able to tell their story.

519
00:29:58,614 --> 00:30:00,694
Speaker 1: Well, that's the rule of cancelation, isn't it. You can't

520
00:30:00,694 --> 00:30:03,574
Speaker 1: defend yourself while it's happening, otherwise it makes it worse.

521
00:30:03,974 --> 00:30:06,334
Speaker 1: But the other thing to note is that there's a

522
00:30:06,374 --> 00:30:10,614
Speaker 1: civil complaint, But then there's all Also the New York

523
00:30:10,654 --> 00:30:13,894
Speaker 1: Times investigation, the lead journalist on this was the same

524
00:30:13,934 --> 00:30:17,814
Speaker 1: journalists that exposed Harvey Weinstein Megan Towey. And they don't

525
00:30:17,854 --> 00:30:21,494
Speaker 1: just publish what someone else wants them to publish. They

526
00:30:21,534 --> 00:30:26,214
Speaker 1: go and corroborate everything. They do their own extensive reporting out,

527
00:30:26,454 --> 00:30:29,694
Speaker 1: making sure that all the sources can be confirmed. So

528
00:30:29,974 --> 00:30:32,614
Speaker 1: in many ways, the timing was more about what The

529
00:30:32,614 --> 00:30:34,894
Speaker 1: New York Times was going to do. But the other

530
00:30:34,894 --> 00:30:37,214
Speaker 1: thing to remember, when we're talking about power and money,

531
00:30:37,894 --> 00:30:41,334
Speaker 1: the guy who is the financial backer of Wayfarer, which

532
00:30:41,374 --> 00:30:45,854
Speaker 1: is the studio that Jamie Heath and Justin Baldonia partners in,

533
00:30:46,614 --> 00:30:50,694
Speaker 1: is like a billionaire. So he's also got unlimited funds.

534
00:30:51,134 --> 00:30:53,854
Speaker 1: He has a lot more money than Ryan Randolds and

535
00:30:53,854 --> 00:30:56,454
Speaker 1: Blake Lively put together. So it's not a case of

536
00:30:56,934 --> 00:31:01,054
Speaker 1: Blake Lively punching down the complexity of power dynamics on

537
00:31:01,254 --> 00:31:05,094
Speaker 1: both the set and in Hollywood. Aren't just about who's

538
00:31:05,134 --> 00:31:06,694
Speaker 1: the most famous in the Daily Mail.

539
00:31:07,134 --> 00:31:10,254
Speaker 2: You know what though, and this is a more pragmatic

540
00:31:10,334 --> 00:31:12,534
Speaker 2: reason too, is they let the movie do its thing.

541
00:31:12,694 --> 00:31:16,134
Speaker 2: That movie was really successful. Yeah, you know, so she

542
00:31:16,174 --> 00:31:19,134
Speaker 2: would have been contractually obliged to promote that movie, and

543
00:31:19,214 --> 00:31:22,174
Speaker 2: also she clearly wanted to and she didn't want to

544
00:31:22,174 --> 00:31:24,894
Speaker 2: promote it with him, which is again very unusual.

545
00:31:25,214 --> 00:31:26,414
Speaker 1: But she promoted the.

546
00:31:26,494 --> 00:31:29,334
Speaker 2: Shit out of that movie while all this was going on.

547
00:31:29,774 --> 00:31:32,854
Speaker 2: It was very successful. It's had its period of box

548
00:31:32,894 --> 00:31:36,454
Speaker 2: office time. And now you can sit there and reflect

549
00:31:36,534 --> 00:31:38,694
Speaker 2: on that that was all happening in real time to her.

550
00:31:39,134 --> 00:31:41,334
Speaker 2: It does seem extraordinary to me though. I know that

551
00:31:41,374 --> 00:31:45,494
Speaker 2: Baldoni has very powerful backer their met of course, but

552
00:31:45,614 --> 00:31:49,454
Speaker 2: that he ever thought that they weren't going to do

553
00:31:49,574 --> 00:31:54,894
Speaker 2: this because Ryan Reynolds, Blake Lively. Reynolds is one of

554
00:31:54,894 --> 00:31:57,454
Speaker 2: the most powerful men in Hollywood. Deadpool was the second

555
00:31:57,494 --> 00:31:59,734
Speaker 2: biggest movie of the year. He makes a lot of

556
00:31:59,734 --> 00:32:02,614
Speaker 2: people a lot of money. They are intensely powerful. He

557
00:32:02,654 --> 00:32:05,934
Speaker 2: would be furious. Imagine sitting in that meeting that he

558
00:32:06,014 --> 00:32:09,014
Speaker 2: sat in with his wife and all those people and

559
00:32:09,094 --> 00:32:11,934
Speaker 2: literally listening to that Liz being read out about them

560
00:32:11,974 --> 00:32:14,654
Speaker 2: walking in on her when she's half naked and breastfeeding

561
00:32:14,694 --> 00:32:18,414
Speaker 2: in her trailer. Revenge is a dish best of cold, right,

562
00:32:18,774 --> 00:32:20,774
Speaker 2: those guys have gone and got their ducks in a

563
00:32:20,854 --> 00:32:24,654
Speaker 2: row in a very professional, very organized manner, and now

564
00:32:24,654 --> 00:32:28,574
Speaker 2: they're coming for them. And fair enough, if indeed everything

565
00:32:28,574 --> 00:32:32,254
Speaker 2: that's in that legal letter is true, absolutely fair enough.

566
00:32:32,534 --> 00:32:34,814
Speaker 1: So what are our takeaways before we wrap up and

567
00:32:34,894 --> 00:32:36,334
Speaker 1: actually go on holidays?

568
00:32:36,574 --> 00:32:39,934
Speaker 3: I think the reason why people are so fascinated by

569
00:32:39,934 --> 00:32:43,254
Speaker 3: this is because it's an exercise in perspective, but also

570
00:32:44,134 --> 00:32:49,134
Speaker 3: we were used as audiences and consumers of media. We

571
00:32:49,134 --> 00:32:53,174
Speaker 3: were played. And the other thing is that I am

572
00:32:53,254 --> 00:32:59,214
Speaker 3: now looking at other examples of cancelation. I'm sorry, but well,

573
00:32:59,254 --> 00:33:02,574
Speaker 3: actually there are some examples of men. But what's confusing

574
00:33:02,614 --> 00:33:06,534
Speaker 3: about them are I don't know who benefited. So it's

575
00:33:06,614 --> 00:33:09,014
Speaker 3: really important when you look at a cancelation like this

576
00:33:09,614 --> 00:33:11,854
Speaker 3: to see who the winners are. But it makes me

577
00:33:11,974 --> 00:33:17,134
Speaker 3: think very differently about Megan Markle. I just wonder, Michael,

578
00:33:17,174 --> 00:33:20,414
Speaker 3: when you see Walter all and wheneveryone walks around and

579
00:33:20,414 --> 00:33:22,414
Speaker 3: they go I just have a sense of something. I

580
00:33:22,414 --> 00:33:25,774
Speaker 3: have a sense that they're not very nice or something.

581
00:33:25,854 --> 00:33:26,814
Speaker 1: It's a great point.

582
00:33:27,054 --> 00:33:30,134
Speaker 3: It just makes me go, how much of this is

583
00:33:30,134 --> 00:33:33,814
Speaker 3: all manufactured? And how difficult is it to prove when

584
00:33:33,854 --> 00:33:38,454
Speaker 3: these social media wizards are so much smarter than us.

585
00:33:38,854 --> 00:33:42,094
Speaker 1: So loud As, we will be returning to our scheduled

586
00:33:42,094 --> 00:33:44,774
Speaker 1: programming of hot Pods summer, where we are going to

587
00:33:44,814 --> 00:33:47,094
Speaker 1: be giving you all sorts of delicious things to listen

588
00:33:47,174 --> 00:33:50,774
Speaker 1: to over summer. If only you could see us. Now

589
00:33:50,854 --> 00:33:53,374
Speaker 1: it's early in the morning, we are all at home,

590
00:33:54,054 --> 00:33:56,814
Speaker 1: but we really wanted to bring this to you because

591
00:33:57,454 --> 00:34:00,174
Speaker 1: we just thought that it was an important story to cover.

592
00:34:00,494 --> 00:34:03,134
Speaker 3: It was one of those stories that in terms of

593
00:34:03,174 --> 00:34:05,694
Speaker 3: the group chat, it was just going off. Look, chances

594
00:34:05,694 --> 00:34:08,094
Speaker 3: are in two days there'll be another story that blows

595
00:34:08,134 --> 00:34:10,814
Speaker 3: up our group chat and we're like, jump on. But

596
00:34:11,774 --> 00:34:13,734
Speaker 3: this time of year, I think we all tend to

597
00:34:13,774 --> 00:34:17,694
Speaker 3: fall into some rabbit holes, and it appears that we were.

598
00:34:17,614 --> 00:34:18,254
Speaker 1: Victims of that.

599
00:34:18,734 --> 00:34:21,254
Speaker 2: If this conversation has brought anything up for you, help

600
00:34:21,334 --> 00:34:23,494
Speaker 2: is available. We're going to put links to resources that

601
00:34:23,534 --> 00:34:25,574
Speaker 2: can help. In the show notes, Take care.

602
00:34:25,734 --> 00:34:28,094
Speaker 1: I'm going outside to touch some grass. We love you

603
00:34:28,174 --> 00:34:32,414
Speaker 1: out louders. We will be in your ears shortly. Bye

604
00:34:32,454 --> 00:34:36,454
Speaker 1: bye bye