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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on Hi True Crime Conversations listeners. I know you

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Speaker 1: weren't expecting to hear from me today, but I have

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Speaker 1: a very special episode I want to share with you.

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Speaker 1: I recently joined Laura Brodnick and Emily Vernon on Mama

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Speaker 1: MIA's entertainment podcast The Spill to discuss some of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful true crime documentaries of all time. Since you

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Speaker 1: all share my passion for gripping true crime stories, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't resist sharing this episode with you. In our conversation.

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Speaker 1: One of the captivating series I spoke about was con Girl,

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Speaker 1: which dives into the life of Australian conn artist Samantha

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Speaker 1: as a Party, something you might recall from our latest

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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations episode. M also shares insights onto must

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Speaker 1: see documentaries that you'll definitely want to add to your

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Speaker 1: watch list. Have a listen, let me know what you think.

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Speaker 1: You can email us at popodcast at mamamea dot com.

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Speaker 1: Do you if you have any true crime documentaries you

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Speaker 1: think we should add to our list. Enjoy and I'll

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Speaker 1: see you next week for another true crime conversation.

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Speaker 2: From Mamma Mia. Welcome to the spill your daily pop

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Speaker 2: culture fix.

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Speaker 3: I'm m vermam and I'm Laura Brodnick, and we have

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Speaker 3: a very special Friday episode for you Spillers. So last month,

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Speaker 3: Ryan Murphy released a little series on Netflix that you

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Speaker 3: might have heard of called Monsters the Lyle and Eric

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Speaker 3: Menendez Story, which told the true story of brothers Lyle

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Speaker 3: and Eric Menendez, who fatally shot their parents in their

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Speaker 3: Beverly Hills home in nineteen eighty nine, and during the

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Speaker 3: very extensive trial, a lot of information came out about

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Speaker 3: their parents abusing them, really captured international headlines at the time.

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Speaker 3: That story has really come back into public view. And

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Speaker 3: then recently the Menendez Brothers documentary also came out on Netflix.

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Speaker 2: Netflix just competing with each other.

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Speaker 3: Well exactly. Well, there was so much backlash that that

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Speaker 3: Ryan Murphy series had sensationalized the story and made up

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Speaker 3: different facts, even though it was billed as a drama.

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Speaker 3: So they had this documentary which then interviewed both of

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Speaker 3: the brothers in prison, also had new interviews with a

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Speaker 3: family member and their prosecutor, and once again people are

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Speaker 3: really delving into the whole true crime aspect of this show.

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Speaker 3: So in honor of this story that has captured everyone's

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Speaker 3: imaginations once again, today's episode of the Spill is dedicated

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Speaker 3: to the very best true crime documentaries. And if you

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Speaker 3: haven't heard of and as everyone listening knows, I'm not

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Speaker 3: really a true crime girl, so don't worry, I am

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Speaker 3: stepping aside, and instead we have brought in the master

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Speaker 3: of this genre, someone who was across all the ins

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Speaker 3: and outs. It's Jem Bath, host of True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 1: Hello, what an intro. But yes, I am true crime obsessed.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so you have the very best recommendations because it

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Speaker 3: is your job to watch pretty much every true crime

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Speaker 3: documentary it is.

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Speaker 1: And I have watched both Monsters and the actual documentary

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Speaker 1: and everything else in between.

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Speaker 3: Did you have a favorite between them? Which one captured

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Speaker 3: your imagination?

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Speaker 1: So I watched Monsters first and felt a bit icky

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Speaker 1: the whole time I was watching it, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: properly know the story. So because it happened in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a nineties baby. Yeah, I wasn't across.

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Speaker 3: It you were alive, No exactly, but just.

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Speaker 1: Keep it going anyway. So I watched Monsters Fresh, not

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Speaker 1: really knowing the story, and I felt a bit icky

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Speaker 1: about it, and I was like, why do I feel

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Speaker 1: like this? And so I jumped immediately into the documentary

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Speaker 1: and then I went, oh, Okay, now I get it.

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Speaker 1: So look, Monsters has a great cast, it's really well shot.

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Speaker 1: It's a great watch. But I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: quite mean telling of that story.

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Speaker 2: It's also very sexy.

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Speaker 1: It's sexy and there's a lot of like innuendo of

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Speaker 1: the brothers being incestuous, which I've literally just gotten out

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Speaker 1: of an interview with one of the journalists who been

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Speaker 1: covering this story from.

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Speaker 3: The very start.

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Speaker 1: He said that is categorically not true. Yes, So it's

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Speaker 1: one of those cases of where you get a real

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Speaker 1: story and then you kind of like boost it and

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Speaker 1: sensationalize it and almost cartoon advise it. And these are

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Speaker 1: two men that are still in prison, who are trying

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Speaker 1: to get out of prison. I don't love that. I

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Speaker 1: don't love that vibe. Whereas the documentary I thought was,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so much it's not bias. It's a

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Speaker 1: really kind of authentic retelling of that story. So if

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Speaker 1: you're gonna watch it. I mean, I recommend watching both

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Speaker 1: because you kind of get two sides of a coin

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Speaker 1: and you can see how the media can manipulate, you know,

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Speaker 1: the way you think about things. But documentary is definitely

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Speaker 1: the most authentic retelling.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And that is why you're here today and while

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Speaker 3: we're doing this episode, because we have the best true

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Speaker 3: crime documentaries. If you've watched The Menandez Brothers and you're

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Speaker 3: looking for more options. Okay, So Emily and jam will

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Speaker 3: both be bringing their recommendations today. Do you want to

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Speaker 3: kick us off, Jim?

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Speaker 1: Yes. My first recommendation is a four part documentary called

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Speaker 1: con Girl, and you can watch this free on seven Plus.

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Speaker 1: Don't you love a free one? I know. So. Con

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Speaker 1: Girl follows the lives of Samantha as a Party. She

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Speaker 1: is a serial Australian con woman who has duped hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people all over the world. She has seventy four

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Speaker 1: that we know of different aliases. Seventy four. I think

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Speaker 1: there's more. Having watched the documentary, I'm like, there's no

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Speaker 1: way it's only seventy four.

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Speaker 3: So much ad men to keep track of.

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Speaker 1: To give her credit, she's very smart to be out

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Speaker 1: like it because she runs a lot of these aliases

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Speaker 1: simultaneously and interjects and kind of mixes the cons in together.

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Speaker 1: It's actually quite a talent, and she wasn't doing things

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Speaker 1: that were very criminal and ruining people's lives. To give

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Speaker 1: you an example, She's got Emily the Russian gymnast, who

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Speaker 1: is like a you know, a teenage girl. She was

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Speaker 1: in her twenties at the time. She's got Harper, the

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old o pair, so she's like looking after

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Speaker 1: actual children pretending to be a teenager. Anika the Swedish

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Speaker 1: backpacker who's on the run because her parents are international spies,

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Speaker 1: and she like lures just normal everyday Australians a lot

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Speaker 1: of the time backpackers because they don't see the Australian headlines.

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Speaker 1: They don't really know her name at all, and she

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Speaker 1: just ruins these people's lives, emotionally ruins them.

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Speaker 3: So do you mean meeting them like in personals? Was

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Speaker 3: all done online?

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Speaker 2: So she puts on the accent and everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if she put an accent on for

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Speaker 1: the Swedish backpacker, but she literally meets these people in

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Speaker 1: real life. I know that she met Emmy, who she

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Speaker 1: duped with Anaker, the Swedish backpacker you know, at a

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Speaker 1: hostel in Sydney, and then took her on these crazy

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Speaker 1: few months where she made Emmy go on the run

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Speaker 1: with her. She made them stay in a safe house

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Speaker 1: which was which was a shipping container in her dad's backyard,

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Speaker 1: which Emmy had no idea about. She thought she was

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Speaker 1: literally on the run in some police safe house. Then

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Speaker 1: she convinced her to go to Canada with her, and

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Speaker 1: eventually what kind of tripped her up in that roost

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Speaker 1: was they were at a hostel in Canada and two

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Speaker 1: Swedish backpackers saw that she'd written she was Sweden, so

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Speaker 1: came and spoke to her in Swedish and she couldn't

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Speaker 1: say and she couldn't speak it back. So that's what.

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Speaker 1: So eventually her jups are undone, but often it's years later.

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Speaker 1: There's one jupe where she was in Sydney and she

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Speaker 1: pretended to be a teenage abuse victim and she went

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Speaker 1: to a home for vulnerable children and they taught her

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Speaker 1: for an entire year how to speak, They taught her

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Speaker 1: for an entire year how to read and write, thinking

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Speaker 1: that she was a fourteen year old abuse victim, and

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Speaker 1: she wasn't.

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Speaker 2: So what was she getting out of this?

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Speaker 1: This is the wild part of it. She doesn't get

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Speaker 1: anything from it. She doesn't financially gain, so she's not

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Speaker 1: duping yet. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought even say she was grifting because I've

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Speaker 3: obviously heard her name and I've read some of the headlines,

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Speaker 3: but I had never delved into what you're saying this

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Speaker 3: documentary has, which is all these crazy stories. But I

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Speaker 3: always assumed there was some sort of monetary gain, that

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Speaker 3: she was grifting these people out of money or something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she gains monetarily a little bit, so she'll

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Speaker 1: still an iPad here or there, and she gets accommodateation

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Speaker 1: and food and bits like that, but that doesn't appear

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Speaker 1: to be her end goal. I don't really know what

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Speaker 1: her goal to deceiving people exactly. Yeah. One of the

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists in this docu series says that from what they

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Speaker 1: can gather, she is addicted to the deception, so she's

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Speaker 1: just addicted to lying. And they did kind of look

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Speaker 1: at a few possible diagnoses, so things like multiple personality

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Speaker 1: disorder munshousens because she does kind of pretend to be

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Speaker 1: sick a lot, and she does as she gets older

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Speaker 1: and can't kind of act as a teenager anymore, involve

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Speaker 1: children who then she makes them act like they're sick.

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm recommending it is because I've watched a

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Speaker 1: lot of true crime, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: wildest stories I have ever seen, like ever seen on screen,

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Speaker 1: because usually when someone is committing crimes like this, it's

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Speaker 1: for a reason for like gain, they're trying to gain

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Speaker 1: money or fame or but she just I think she's

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Speaker 1: a very sick woman. Like she's obviously got a lot

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Speaker 1: going on, but she's ruining people's lives across the world.

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Speaker 1: The reason that we all don't know her name and

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Speaker 1: her face is because she is very good at avoiding

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Speaker 1: photos and video, so there's not a lot out there,

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Speaker 1: so she's not plastered everywhere like you would think after

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Speaker 1: fifteen years of doing this, you know, she sounds like who.

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Speaker 2: Does she sound like Emily in that movie A simple favor?

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Speaker 3: Oh Blake Lively's character. I mean, that was only one

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Speaker 3: main grift, but it does sound like this is like

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Speaker 3: a like if Ryan Murphy hears about this, she's going

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Speaker 3: to be making a sexy a sexy series all about this,

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Speaker 3: and he's going to come with Kim Kardashi and you

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Speaker 3: just know it.

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Speaker 1: I think if this series was on Netflix it would

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Speaker 1: go off absolutely because it's so gripping. The way it's

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Speaker 1: told is brilliant. The documentary makers have done an incredible job.

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Speaker 1: It took them two years to kind of piece together

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Speaker 1: this story. I've written about Samantha over the years. I've

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Speaker 1: kind of dipped in and out of her story, but

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Speaker 1: because it's so complicated, I didn't like fully invest in it.

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Speaker 1: And so watching this four part documentary, you properly get

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Speaker 1: to kind of unravel the extent of the crimes, and

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Speaker 1: I feel so much more invested in it because I

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Speaker 1: can finally understand it as much as you can understand

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Speaker 1: someone with seventy four A lists. I think everyone needs

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Speaker 1: to watch this. Ever Australian needs to watch this one

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Speaker 1: so that you don't get duped by Samantha as a party. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because she's not stopping.

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Speaker 2: Wait, she's still out there.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she's in the office right now.

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Speaker 1: She's been to prison multiple times.

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Speaker 2: Do we know what she looks like? Would you?

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Speaker 1: Yea, we know what she looks like.

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Speaker 3: Out a photo because if anyone's got to four for

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Speaker 3: a dirt.

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Speaker 1: She's currently in prison, but she's eligible for parole, and

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Speaker 1: she's been in prison multiple times, sometimes for like a year,

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Speaker 1: two years at a time, and when she gets out

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Speaker 1: she does exactly the same thing. She refuses psychiatric help,

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Speaker 1: she does her prison time, she comes back out, she

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Speaker 1: does it again. And she's thirty six. Now she's been

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Speaker 1: doing it. She's so young, she's been doing it since

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Speaker 1: she was probably early twenties, teenager. So I don't think

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Speaker 1: she's stopping. The only way we stop her is by

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Speaker 1: getting her face out there so that people aren't duped.

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Speaker 1: It's just a fascinating story. I mean, I still don't

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Speaker 1: understand it after watching it, but I just think everyone

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Speaker 1: needs to watch it. It's so well.

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Speaker 3: Done, amazing on seven plus.

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Speaker 1: Right and seven plus free.

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Speaker 3: How Emily, are you gonna top that? No, we look

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Speaker 3: on your face, you look so shaken to.

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Speaker 2: Your course right. I want to leave the studio and

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Speaker 2: watch it right now.

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Speaker 3: If you hear a door slams because EM's left the studio. Okay,

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Speaker 3: but what is your true crime documentary recommendation?

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Speaker 2: The first one I want to recommend is one that's

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Speaker 2: probably the most recent out of all of our recommendations.

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Speaker 2: It's called Sweet Bobby and it's on Netflix. I think

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Speaker 2: you guys might have heard of it because it was

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Speaker 2: originally a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Podcast went viral.

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Speaker 2: It was everywhere, and it was quite a few years

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Speaker 2: ago though. Yeah, it was like the best podcast ever.

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Speaker 2: It is one of the biggest catfishing cases ever. So

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Speaker 2: it's about this woman named Kirat who was catfished for

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Speaker 2: eighty years by a man who she thought was a man.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't online one, Okay, this wasn't online.

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Speaker 3: That's that's slightly more understandable.

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Speaker 2: It is so intense because I feel like there's always

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Speaker 2: a bias for people who get catfish, Like there's always

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Speaker 2: a voice in people's heads, so like, how could you

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Speaker 2: possibly let that happen? And then you listen to this

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Speaker 2: podcast and watch this documentary, it's just like a one

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Speaker 2: party and you're like, this could have been anyone. Like

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Speaker 2: her life was ruined. It happened throughout her entire thirties.

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Speaker 2: It started in her early thirties, Like she found out

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Speaker 2: she was catfish when she was thirty nine, and now

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Speaker 2: she's just like living this life trying to shine light

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Speaker 2: on like the victims of catfishing. It is so intense.

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Speaker 2: So what happened was, in her early thirties, got a

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Speaker 2: friend request from a man named Bobby, who she kind

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Speaker 2: of knew because they were both part of the same

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Speaker 2: sick community in London. One of her younger cousins, Simran,

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Speaker 2: was dating his brother, so she's like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: a familiar person and they started talking. The issue was

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Speaker 2: was that both of them were in relationships at the time,

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Speaker 2: but they couldn't stop this kind of romantic connection from evolving.

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Speaker 2: They eventually broke up with their partners and just decided

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Speaker 2: to be in a relationship together. And then things started

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Speaker 2: getting really weird. Every time she wanted to like meet

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Speaker 2: up with him or hang out with him, something went

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Speaker 2: wrong and not just wrong as in like I can't

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Speaker 2: make it, but like crazy wrong, to the point where

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Speaker 2: like he was saying, I've been shot, I'm in witness protection,

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Speaker 2: I'm in the hospital. My heart's about to stop beating Jesus.

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Speaker 2: And then she had to like figure out how to

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Speaker 2: deal with all of this. She's obviously like so distraught

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Speaker 2: because like a man, she's like in a relationship with

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Speaker 2: this going through all of this. The catfisher made multiple profiles.

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Speaker 2: I think it was said that it was made over

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Speaker 2: sixty profiles of like just connections. So like quote unquote,

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Speaker 2: Bobby was pulling her out into these like family group

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Speaker 2: conversations that had like seventeen other people who were also.

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Speaker 1: Taught, sounding like Samantha as a party, probably Samantha.

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Speaker 2: If you've listened to the podcast or watched this, you

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Speaker 2: would know that the person who was catfishing Kirat was

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Speaker 2: her younger cousin, Simran.

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Speaker 1: I forgot about that.

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Speaker 3: I did not know that. This is new information to me.

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Speaker 3: That is so brutal, so brutal.

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Speaker 2: And the and Simran, because she was much younger, actually

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Speaker 2: started catfishing care At when she was a teen. Male cousin,

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Speaker 2: female cousin when she was a teen.

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Speaker 3: But I guess maybe she just started it and she

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Speaker 3: got carried away. But how long eight years?

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Speaker 2: Eight years?

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Speaker 3: That's no, that's too long, eight years. I mean she

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have at the first place. But like, at what

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Speaker 3: point are you, like, I have to get myself out

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Speaker 3: of this situation, Like.

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Speaker 2: There's no laws in place that's saying care AT's a victim.

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Speaker 2: The victims that the police are saying is Bobby and

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Speaker 2: Bobby's wife because they're the ones who were being used

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Speaker 2: as cat.

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Speaker 3: Being impersonated in lime, which is, oh, yeah, that's really

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Speaker 3: And does the documentary have interviews with all these people?

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Speaker 3: Is that how they tell a story?

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Speaker 2: It has interviews with Kirat, Bobby, Bobby's wife, Kirats parents.

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Speaker 2: They don't interview like they wanted to interview sim Ran

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Speaker 2: but she declined. But they did have an actress. This

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Speaker 2: is kind of sad. They did have an actress stand

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Speaker 2: in with like when they were showing kind of screenshots

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Speaker 2: of Facebook and stuff, but because they were like screenshots

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Speaker 2: and photos of like Facebook images, people thought the actress

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Speaker 2: was the real She's been on TikTok for the last

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Speaker 2: few days going, guys, it's not me.

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Speaker 1: I'm an actress.

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Speaker 2: I'm an actress. But it is wild. And it's also

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Speaker 2: wild because apparently most catfishing cases are people that are

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Speaker 2: really close to you.

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Speaker 3: Well they would have to be to know all the information, right, crazy,

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Speaker 3: where are we watching this?

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Speaker 2: You're watching this on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's better than the podcast.

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Speaker 2: No, I think the podcast was better. Sorry, I think

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Speaker 2: the podcast was better, but there's more information now that

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Speaker 2: it's been a few years. I think because it's on screen,

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Speaker 2: Caret is very reserved. Because they also which I feel

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Speaker 2: terrible for her. They play like the voice note she

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Speaker 2: sends him out loud in front of her, like doting

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Speaker 2: on him, going I love you so much, I can't

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Speaker 2: wait to see you. I can't wait to raise this

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Speaker 2: baby with you, like no one will ever separate us.

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Speaker 1: While she's sitting in the room, while she's sitting in

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Speaker 1: the room. That's the kind of documentary making I don't like.

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Speaker 1: But I'm still gonna watch it.

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Speaker 2: It is so good and to the point where like

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Speaker 2: even like her other cousins and stuff are like calling

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Speaker 2: Bobby and giving him voice memos and she'll never get

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Speaker 2: a voice memo back because he's in hospital and he

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Speaker 2: has something wrong with his throat then he can't do it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the podcast was that long ago. If

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Speaker 1: you like me and you have a horrible memory, I

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Speaker 1: mean I'd forgotten that it.

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Speaker 3: Was getting reacting to it, because.

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Speaker 1: Even though I listened to it, I honestly think it

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Speaker 1: was like maybe eight years ago, so long ago that

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Speaker 1: I've kind of forgotten it. It was only when you started

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Speaker 1: telling the story that it kind of was like thick

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Speaker 1: click click, So I think even if faces to there,

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Speaker 1: That's why I'm like, I need to rewatch it. I

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Speaker 1: need to watch even though I've listened to the potty.

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Speaker 1: My next recommendation is a little bit darker than both

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Speaker 1: of the ones, even though they were both crimes. Obviously

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about, no one died, yes, exactly. The

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Speaker 1: documentary I'm talking about is called The Fire that Took Her.

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Speaker 1: It's from twenty twenty two, and I've only recently watched

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Speaker 1: it and I can't I can't stop thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: It follows the story of a mum of two, her

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Speaker 1: name's Judy Malanowski, who was set on fire by her

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Speaker 1: partner outside of a petrol station in Ohio in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: She suffered burns to ninety percent of her body, and

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Speaker 1: she was so injured that her own daughters didn't recognize her.

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Speaker 1: Her sister walked into the hospital room and vomited, Like

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Speaker 1: it was she was just so so so injured. You

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Speaker 1: could like all of her facial features had kind of melted.

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Speaker 2: It was justrific.

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Speaker 1: Doctors didn't expect her to survive hours she survived for

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Speaker 1: two years, and in that time she changed history. That's

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Speaker 1: a bit of a hook for you. But she was

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Speaker 1: the first person in history to give testimony, so three

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Speaker 1: hours worth proper court set up cross defence, obviously from

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Speaker 1: a hospital bed via court link at her own murder trial.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh god.

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Speaker 1: So she was giving this testimony knowing that she probably

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to survive and that this testimony would be

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Speaker 1: used to convict the man that had set her on

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Speaker 1: on fire.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, that is horrific.

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Speaker 1: Her own murder trial, her own murder trial. So it

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Speaker 1: took so many leaps to even get to that point,

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Speaker 1: Like legally this had never been done. They had to

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Speaker 1: go through all these legal loopholes to even allow her

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Speaker 1: to do that, and then once she died. She did

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Speaker 1: die in twenty seventeen, so two years after the attack,

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Speaker 1: they then had to go through all these loops again

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Speaker 1: to be able to show her testimony in court, and

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Speaker 1: it very nearly didn't happen. So she nearly went through

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Speaker 1: all of that for nothing. And the documentary maker I've

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Speaker 1: actually interviewed her and she was like, it was probably

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00:18:48,102 --> 00:18:51,022
Speaker 1: that three hours of testimony that was her downfall. It

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Speaker 1: made her so unwell because it took so much effort.

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Speaker 1: This is a woman that had seven cardiac arrests, sixty

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Speaker 1: different surgeries, she was in a coma for seven months,

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Speaker 1: like she was never not in pain. But it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: because I mean, as someone who works in true crime,

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of stories about women that are

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Speaker 1: murdered by former or current partners. I mean, happens every

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Speaker 1: week in Australia. And to hear this woman was able

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Speaker 1: to actually explain to a court what he did, what

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00:19:20,942 --> 00:19:23,222
Speaker 1: he looked like as he did it, how he reacted,

401
00:19:23,222 --> 00:19:25,902
Speaker 1: how I reacted, how it felt to be burnt alive

402
00:19:26,022 --> 00:19:29,142
Speaker 1: like it was. She was so remarkable, like she was

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00:19:29,182 --> 00:19:31,822
Speaker 1: doing this. They had to reduce her pain meds so

404
00:19:31,862 --> 00:19:33,942
Speaker 1: that she could even do it, so she was in

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00:19:34,022 --> 00:19:36,502
Speaker 1: so much pain as she did it. It's just it's

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Speaker 1: one of those documentaries that is so sensitively and well

407
00:19:41,022 --> 00:19:44,662
Speaker 1: made and telling a story like that. You know, we've

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00:19:44,662 --> 00:19:47,942
Speaker 1: just talked about monsters. It's so easy to sensationalize crime,

409
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Speaker 1: especially in today's world where true crime is like gobbled

410
00:19:51,462 --> 00:19:55,942
Speaker 1: up by audiences they absolutely love it, and this does

411
00:19:55,942 --> 00:20:02,342
Speaker 1: the opposite. It is so beautifully told and delicately told

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Speaker 1: in her whole family, like her daughters are involved, And

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Speaker 1: that was one part that I found super interesting. It's

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Speaker 1: the first time I've heard the daughters of a victim

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00:20:12,542 --> 00:20:16,182
Speaker 1: speak about the impact on their lives. So intimately, the

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Speaker 1: one statement I wanted to say was the youngest daughter

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00:20:19,582 --> 00:20:22,062
Speaker 1: gets really really upset in an interview because she's like,

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Speaker 1: why does the daughter of her killer still get to

419
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Speaker 1: see him in prison? Like why is she allowed to

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Speaker 1: see her dad? That's not fair. He shouldn't be allowed

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00:20:30,622 --> 00:20:33,742
Speaker 1: to see family. I'm not allowed to see mine, Like

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00:20:33,822 --> 00:20:36,582
Speaker 1: that's heartbreaking. In it's not something i'd even thought about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's just so so well done. It's a really hard watch, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but I highly recommend it. It's really well done.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I love what you're saying about it being so

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Speaker 3: sensitively done, because I find that, as you're saying, there

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Speaker 3: are some elements of true crime where where the people

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Speaker 3: making it a very dissense that I decize to it,

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Speaker 3: or I feel like it's inviting sometimes people to like

431
00:20:56,422 --> 00:20:59,382
Speaker 3: revel in someone else's pain when you present it as

432
00:20:59,662 --> 00:21:01,822
Speaker 3: just entertainment. But I feel like what you're saying here

433
00:21:01,902 --> 00:21:04,062
Speaker 3: is this one is more of a just this woe

434
00:21:04,102 --> 00:21:06,062
Speaker 3: put her life on the line to tell this story,

435
00:21:06,142 --> 00:21:08,622
Speaker 3: and so it's almost our duty to watch it and

436
00:21:08,702 --> 00:21:12,382
Speaker 3: engage in it and into what her words were. So yeah,

437
00:21:12,422 --> 00:21:14,182
Speaker 3: I definitely need to watch that one. And where can

438
00:21:14,222 --> 00:21:15,062
Speaker 3: we watch that gym?

439
00:21:15,222 --> 00:21:17,862
Speaker 1: Either Apple or Paramount highly highly recommend.

440
00:21:18,382 --> 00:21:21,742
Speaker 2: Okay, I have another really intense one.

441
00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:22,542
Speaker 1: It is true crime.

442
00:21:22,782 --> 00:21:24,662
Speaker 2: It is the topic crime. We probably should have broken

443
00:21:24,662 --> 00:21:27,182
Speaker 2: these up and in different structure. Here we go. So

444
00:21:27,742 --> 00:21:30,902
Speaker 2: the other one I chose was The Keepers on Netflix.

445
00:21:30,982 --> 00:21:32,182
Speaker 2: Have either of you watched it?

446
00:21:32,462 --> 00:21:34,622
Speaker 3: Well, obviously I'm gonna say no, no, and.

447
00:21:34,582 --> 00:21:37,542
Speaker 1: I usually have watched it most so enlightened me.

448
00:21:37,742 --> 00:21:41,262
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily the best documentary I've seen, but it's

449
00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:44,342
Speaker 2: the one that has stuck with me the longest and

450
00:21:44,382 --> 00:21:47,462
Speaker 2: has been ingrained in my brain since twenty seventeen when

451
00:21:47,502 --> 00:21:47,862
Speaker 2: it came out.

452
00:21:47,902 --> 00:21:48,782
Speaker 1: Oh wow that long?

453
00:21:49,022 --> 00:21:52,422
Speaker 2: Yeah, why, it's a lot. Okay, it's a lot. So

454
00:21:52,782 --> 00:21:56,342
Speaker 2: it explores the murder of a nun named sister Kathy

455
00:21:56,422 --> 00:22:01,222
Speaker 2: Sessnik in nineteen sixty nine in Baltimore, and the longer

456
00:22:01,342 --> 00:22:05,742
Speaker 2: the series goes on it's seven episodes, the bigger the

457
00:22:05,742 --> 00:22:09,182
Speaker 2: investigation becomes, and all of this stuff just starts happening.

458
00:22:09,542 --> 00:22:13,382
Speaker 2: It goes into a huge investigation into the archdiocecese and

459
00:22:13,502 --> 00:22:17,822
Speaker 2: legal authorities of the entire Baltimore State. So it jumps

460
00:22:17,862 --> 00:22:20,422
Speaker 2: from like the sixties to the nineties to present day.

461
00:22:21,062 --> 00:22:24,502
Speaker 2: And Sister Kathy in the sixties was an English teacher

462
00:22:24,542 --> 00:22:27,062
Speaker 2: and drama teacher at an all girls school in Baltimore.

463
00:22:27,342 --> 00:22:28,822
Speaker 2: And it was like one of those schools where like

464
00:22:28,862 --> 00:22:31,862
Speaker 2: a lot of nuns were teachers, and like the principal,

465
00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:34,782
Speaker 2: and like the bigger people like were the priests. And

466
00:22:35,022 --> 00:22:37,702
Speaker 2: the priest at the school was named Joseph Mascal, and

467
00:22:37,702 --> 00:22:40,782
Speaker 2: he was also the school's counselor. So Sister Cathy was

468
00:22:40,902 --> 00:22:43,422
Speaker 2: very close to her students, like all the girls loved her,

469
00:22:43,822 --> 00:22:46,822
Speaker 2: and she began to suspect that Joseph Mascal, the priest,

470
00:22:46,982 --> 00:22:50,502
Speaker 2: was sexually abusing them. She said, like he would call

471
00:22:50,542 --> 00:22:53,502
Speaker 2: them to his office during class, like over the speaker,

472
00:22:54,102 --> 00:22:57,382
Speaker 2: and then when the students returned to class, they apparently

473
00:22:57,462 --> 00:23:01,022
Speaker 2: were like very quiet, like head down, like just sitting

474
00:23:01,062 --> 00:23:04,222
Speaker 2: at their desk, not talking to anyone. Because suspicions grew,

475
00:23:04,262 --> 00:23:07,182
Speaker 2: and she began to like ask questions and then she

476
00:23:07,262 --> 00:23:07,822
Speaker 2: was murdered.

477
00:23:08,302 --> 00:23:09,982
Speaker 3: Oh god, So now we're jumping to.

478
00:23:10,022 --> 00:23:14,142
Speaker 2: Nineteen, where a former student of Moscal named Jean Wayner

479
00:23:14,262 --> 00:23:17,982
Speaker 2: publicly accused him of sexually abusing her. She also alleged

480
00:23:18,022 --> 00:23:20,182
Speaker 2: that when she wanted to speak up during the time

481
00:23:20,342 --> 00:23:23,422
Speaker 2: the abuse was taking place, that Mascal drove her to

482
00:23:23,462 --> 00:23:26,982
Speaker 2: the woods where Sister Kathy's body was decomposing and said,

483
00:23:27,462 --> 00:23:30,182
Speaker 2: you see what happens when you say bad things about people.

484
00:23:30,742 --> 00:23:34,382
Speaker 2: So she stared into silence until nineteen.

485
00:23:36,822 --> 00:23:38,862
Speaker 3: Again, this is why I only watched horror with like

486
00:23:39,262 --> 00:23:41,502
Speaker 3: demons and vampires, because I know that's not real. I

487
00:23:41,542 --> 00:23:44,382
Speaker 3: hope this is too close to her. Oh god, okay.

488
00:23:44,902 --> 00:23:47,902
Speaker 2: So Moscal was removed from the ministry but never convicted.

489
00:23:48,142 --> 00:23:52,062
Speaker 2: He was internally sent for quote unquote treatment and was

490
00:23:52,102 --> 00:23:54,902
Speaker 2: told that he can't carry out priests like practices, although

491
00:23:54,942 --> 00:23:57,862
Speaker 2: he continued practicing as a psychologist until his death.

492
00:23:57,982 --> 00:23:58,382
Speaker 1: Stop it.

493
00:23:58,582 --> 00:24:01,822
Speaker 2: He moved to island and stuff. It was wild. So

494
00:24:02,342 --> 00:24:05,462
Speaker 2: now it's like the present time, and so much stuff

495
00:24:05,462 --> 00:24:08,582
Speaker 2: has come to the surface about the connections and power

496
00:24:08,702 --> 00:24:12,662
Speaker 2: the Archdiocese had Baltimore in the time. It was revealed

497
00:24:12,662 --> 00:24:16,502
Speaker 2: that Maskell was accused of sexually assaulting a young boy

498
00:24:16,542 --> 00:24:19,822
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven. The church found out, tried to

499
00:24:19,902 --> 00:24:22,222
Speaker 2: hide it, which is why they just moved him. So

500
00:24:22,342 --> 00:24:26,342
Speaker 2: apparently during that time, like whenever priests did something like that,

501
00:24:26,662 --> 00:24:28,782
Speaker 2: they would just move them to a different parish. So

502
00:24:28,862 --> 00:24:30,542
Speaker 2: he was moved to the girls school, which is what

503
00:24:30,702 --> 00:24:34,142
Speaker 2: kind of like made the abuse so much worse. Also,

504
00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:36,382
Speaker 2: he had so many connections to the police. There have

505
00:24:36,462 --> 00:24:39,702
Speaker 2: been allegations of other young girl victims coming out saying

506
00:24:39,742 --> 00:24:42,782
Speaker 2: that the police were involved in some of the sexual

507
00:24:42,782 --> 00:24:45,142
Speaker 2: abuse and like the attacks, like they would drive them

508
00:24:45,182 --> 00:24:48,102
Speaker 2: to the woods and like all of them it was

509
00:24:48,142 --> 00:24:51,582
Speaker 2: just like so messed up, including like there's been like

510
00:24:51,622 --> 00:24:54,622
Speaker 2: allegations that the gynecologists that they send them to would

511
00:24:54,662 --> 00:24:55,982
Speaker 2: also sexually abuse them.

512
00:24:56,182 --> 00:24:58,782
Speaker 1: These kind of stories make me so angry because it's

513
00:24:58,822 --> 00:25:03,622
Speaker 1: not uncommon in these institutions, not just religious institutions. You know,

514
00:25:03,822 --> 00:25:06,062
Speaker 1: we've seen it in gymnastics in like all sorts of

515
00:25:06,102 --> 00:25:09,462
Speaker 1: worlds where this kind of stuff is happening for decades

516
00:25:10,462 --> 00:25:14,422
Speaker 1: and then you know, eventually once all the damage is done.

517
00:25:14,622 --> 00:25:15,062
Speaker 2: Tragic.

518
00:25:19,902 --> 00:25:22,862
Speaker 1: The weekend watch, well.

519
00:25:22,622 --> 00:25:26,302
Speaker 3: Thank you both for all of those recommendations and the nightmares,

520
00:25:26,542 --> 00:25:28,582
Speaker 3: and of course you know I spillers love their true

521
00:25:28,622 --> 00:25:31,982
Speaker 3: crime So if there's other recommendations that spillers have, make

522
00:25:31,982 --> 00:25:34,182
Speaker 3: sure to always hit us up on this spill podcast

523
00:25:34,222 --> 00:25:37,422
Speaker 3: on Instagram. We'd love to know what true crime documentaries

524
00:25:37,502 --> 00:25:39,662
Speaker 3: you love. And now I think the m that you

525
00:25:39,702 --> 00:25:41,902
Speaker 3: should kick off we can watch because we need something

526
00:25:41,902 --> 00:25:42,582
Speaker 3: a little bit light.

527
00:25:42,982 --> 00:25:45,142
Speaker 2: I've got a light one. I mean I got quite emotional.

528
00:25:45,142 --> 00:25:46,302
Speaker 2: I did cry while watching it.

529
00:25:46,502 --> 00:25:47,262
Speaker 3: No, you did it.

530
00:25:47,262 --> 00:25:48,142
Speaker 1: It sounds really lt.

531
00:25:48,822 --> 00:25:50,342
Speaker 2: I tear it up a little bit at the end.

532
00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:55,542
Speaker 2: So I watched the latest Venom film. Start laugh, we've

533
00:25:55,582 --> 00:25:57,582
Speaker 2: taken a turn. Have you heard a Venom?

534
00:25:57,622 --> 00:25:59,622
Speaker 1: I've seen the photo and it looks terrifying.

535
00:25:59,862 --> 00:26:03,102
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Sony. We're in association with Marvel film. It

536
00:26:03,182 --> 00:26:05,942
Speaker 2: starts Tom Hardy. It's a third installment of like the

537
00:26:06,062 --> 00:26:11,782
Speaker 2: Venom franchise. It's called The Last Dance. Oh. I can absolutely.

538
00:26:11,422 --> 00:26:11,942
Speaker 3: Guarante you.

539
00:26:14,382 --> 00:26:16,942
Speaker 2: Postphonedos who sent that thing.

540
00:26:21,462 --> 00:26:30,262
Speaker 1: Of course, the symbiots didn't come here by accident. They

541
00:26:30,262 --> 00:26:33,462
Speaker 1: were running from what we have something.

542
00:26:34,702 --> 00:26:35,342
Speaker 2: As long as.

543
00:26:38,382 --> 00:26:40,342
Speaker 1: Every thing will.

544
00:26:42,182 --> 00:26:44,502
Speaker 2: So basically what Venom is if you haven't watched any

545
00:26:44,542 --> 00:26:47,142
Speaker 2: of the movies like Tom Hardy is like this journalist

546
00:26:47,262 --> 00:26:51,822
Speaker 2: in San Francisco, and like an alien asteroid hits Earth

547
00:26:51,902 --> 00:26:54,662
Speaker 2: and then all these like they call them symbiths and

548
00:26:54,782 --> 00:26:57,662
Speaker 2: they are like these like alien gooey creatures that attach

549
00:26:57,742 --> 00:27:00,062
Speaker 2: themselves to people so they can like transform and take

550
00:27:00,102 --> 00:27:00,822
Speaker 2: over their life.

551
00:27:01,062 --> 00:27:01,782
Speaker 1: Sounds real lot.

552
00:27:02,022 --> 00:27:05,182
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this I think actually is quite like it's

553
00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:08,222
Speaker 2: one name. Venim took over Tom Hardy's character at first,

554
00:27:08,222 --> 00:27:10,662
Speaker 2: like he was really evil, but now they've decided to

555
00:27:10,702 --> 00:27:13,462
Speaker 2: like kind of be together for a year and like

556
00:27:13,542 --> 00:27:16,302
Speaker 2: kind of like deal with life together. So yeah, so

557
00:27:16,422 --> 00:27:19,782
Speaker 2: I guess they're like an anti superhero. But anyway, getting

558
00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:23,502
Speaker 2: ahead of myself, this last film shows that for the

559
00:27:23,542 --> 00:27:26,582
Speaker 2: planet to survive, one of them has to die, like

560
00:27:26,662 --> 00:27:30,462
Speaker 2: either Tom Hardy or Tom Hardy. I forgot his actual name.

561
00:27:30,502 --> 00:27:36,582
Speaker 2: It's not a bondant Tom Hardy, or he is Tom Hardy,

562
00:27:37,062 --> 00:27:38,942
Speaker 2: Tom Hardy. He's so hot.

563
00:27:39,102 --> 00:27:40,862
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I'll watch it for Tom Hardy.

564
00:27:41,022 --> 00:27:42,662
Speaker 2: Literally that's the whole reason why I got into this

565
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:44,422
Speaker 2: series in the first place. And there's like this like

566
00:27:44,582 --> 00:27:46,782
Speaker 2: he wears like a really nice suit for like most

567
00:27:46,782 --> 00:27:49,342
Speaker 2: of it. It's really great, but because it is like,

568
00:27:49,382 --> 00:27:50,782
Speaker 2: as you can tell what the title it's called The

569
00:27:50,822 --> 00:27:53,422
Speaker 2: Last Dan, so I did get quite emotional at the end.

570
00:27:53,462 --> 00:27:54,702
Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil it because I know you're

571
00:27:54,702 --> 00:27:57,102
Speaker 2: definitely gonna want to watch it, but that is out

572
00:27:57,102 --> 00:27:58,262
Speaker 2: in cinemas right now.

573
00:27:58,342 --> 00:28:01,182
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm rushing out there, all right. Before I say

574
00:28:01,182 --> 00:28:04,182
Speaker 3: my recommendation, I should just say that we recently did

575
00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,262
Speaker 3: an episode on Comfort Shows, which I'll link in the

576
00:28:06,302 --> 00:28:09,142
Speaker 3: show notes, because I feel like mine is also a

577
00:28:09,142 --> 00:28:12,102
Speaker 3: bit heavy, because I'm mending a new thriller series on

578
00:28:12,222 --> 00:28:15,982
Speaker 3: Stand called Dead and Buried, which is just what's out

579
00:28:15,982 --> 00:28:17,742
Speaker 3: the sweet guys. I didn't mean it to team up.

580
00:28:17,702 --> 00:28:19,302
Speaker 1: With a true crime episode.

581
00:28:19,422 --> 00:28:21,542
Speaker 3: It's a true crime episode. So this is a drama.

582
00:28:21,582 --> 00:28:24,102
Speaker 3: It's based on a stage play actually, so you know,

583
00:28:24,142 --> 00:28:26,062
Speaker 3: the twists and turns a good and the dialogue is great.

584
00:28:26,062 --> 00:28:28,062
Speaker 3: So it's about this young mum called Kathy. She's out

585
00:28:28,062 --> 00:28:30,302
Speaker 3: one day shopping with her son and she bumps into

586
00:28:30,302 --> 00:28:33,422
Speaker 3: this man called Michael McAllister who killed her brother over

587
00:28:33,462 --> 00:28:36,462
Speaker 3: twenty years ago and was convicted and put in prison,

588
00:28:36,582 --> 00:28:38,542
Speaker 3: but she didn't know that he had been released early,

589
00:28:39,022 --> 00:28:41,742
Speaker 3: so she understandably freaks out and is very upset that

590
00:28:41,742 --> 00:28:43,982
Speaker 3: she's just come face to face with her brother's killer.

591
00:28:44,302 --> 00:28:47,342
Speaker 3: She runs home, dives into social media, and realizes this

592
00:28:47,382 --> 00:28:49,742
Speaker 3: man has been out for years and in that time,

593
00:28:49,862 --> 00:28:52,022
Speaker 3: he's started a family and he's living this life and

594
00:28:52,062 --> 00:28:55,382
Speaker 3: people love him. And she's just so enraged that her

595
00:28:55,422 --> 00:28:57,662
Speaker 3: family was destroyed, her brother is dead, and this man

596
00:28:57,742 --> 00:29:00,302
Speaker 3: has been given a chance this second life that she

597
00:29:00,542 --> 00:29:03,422
Speaker 3: sets out to sort of destroy his life as revenge

598
00:29:03,422 --> 00:29:06,302
Speaker 3: and take him down. But there's very dire consequences with

599
00:29:06,342 --> 00:29:09,182
Speaker 3: this because this man has some dangerous people around him.

600
00:29:09,342 --> 00:29:12,742
Speaker 3: And it's four episodes, so it's like the perfect weekend

601
00:29:12,782 --> 00:29:14,742
Speaker 3: binge watch. I won't say any more about what happens,

602
00:29:14,742 --> 00:29:17,822
Speaker 3: but more people die, more twists and turns like the

603
00:29:17,862 --> 00:29:20,062
Speaker 3: steaks are very high thought, he's.

604
00:29:21,862 --> 00:29:27,542
Speaker 1: He's served a sentence. Well, I keep serving mine, Cathy,

605
00:29:28,622 --> 00:29:34,462
Speaker 1: How were you when your brother died? You know what

606
00:29:34,502 --> 00:29:39,782
Speaker 1: happens new mcalla ones. I just wanted to see all

607
00:29:39,822 --> 00:29:43,142
Speaker 1: the things he asked my brother never had. Is how

608
00:29:43,182 --> 00:29:45,662
Speaker 1: you feel, Kathy, that you're the only one who can

609
00:29:45,662 --> 00:29:51,622
Speaker 1: see what's going on? How does it end? And I

610
00:29:51,782 --> 00:29:52,422
Speaker 1: for an eye?

611
00:29:52,822 --> 00:29:57,542
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you guys would love this is so

612
00:29:57,742 --> 00:30:00,182
Speaker 3: dead and buried out on stand now Thank.

613
00:29:59,982 --> 00:30:01,902
Speaker 2: You so much for listening to the spill today, and

614
00:30:01,942 --> 00:30:06,662
Speaker 2: thank you Jim for joining us. If you want to

615
00:30:06,662 --> 00:30:09,902
Speaker 2: listen to more of Jam, please listen to our podcast,

616
00:30:09,942 --> 00:30:14,342
Speaker 2: True Crime Conversation. She always hosts the most interesting people.

617
00:30:14,662 --> 00:30:16,422
Speaker 2: She has a wealth of knowledge. We'll put a link

618
00:30:16,502 --> 00:30:18,542
Speaker 2: to that show in our show notes and we will

619
00:30:18,542 --> 00:30:20,342
Speaker 2: see you back here in your podcast feed at three

620
00:30:20,342 --> 00:30:21,142
Speaker 2: pm on Monday.

621
00:30:21,302 --> 00:30:24,142
Speaker 3: Bye bye, bye bye