WEBVTT - Introducing: This Is Why We Fight. Jess & David Have Different Definitions Of Cheating 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.520 You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.120 Hello, No Filter listeners. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm 0:00:13.120 --> 0:00:16.960 a clinical psychotherapist and the host of Mamma MIA's newest podcast, 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.560 This is Why We Fight, where eight different pairs share 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.279 their relationship challenges in authentic therapy sessions so that you 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.120 can benefit from what they learn and also learn more 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.400 about the therapy process. I think that No Filter fans 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.120 would be particularly interested in Jess and David, a couple 0:00:34.160 --> 0:00:37.440 with very different definitions of cheating and who are very 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.879 different needs and communication styles, and they're grappling with how 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:42.440 to move forward in their relationship. 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.320 Have a listen. I hope you enjoy. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.199 the traditional owners of the land and waters. This podcast 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.240 was recorded. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:57.600 On So for me, I feel that he is ashamed 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:02.160 of me, embarrassed of me. I feel like I'm good 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.720 enough for him, but not for his public image, and 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.360 that really hurts and that makes me feel really insecure. 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.160 He doesn't post anything of us on his social media. 0:01:13.960 --> 0:01:17.320 He hasn't introduced me to his family. You know, I 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.960 don't know many of his friends. I feel at times 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.039 like I'm a side peace. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:31.480 Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems, 0:01:31.960 --> 0:01:35.680 real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:40.080 psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, 0:01:40.320 --> 0:01:43.920 and families. This series has been designed to allow you, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.080 our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.120 other people who are grappling with the challenges in their relationships, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.320 because I firmly believe that we can learn so much 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:59.120 from each other. Today you're meeting Jess and David Perth couple. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.040 Jess and David are in their forties. They're not married, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.200 but they've been in a long term relationship for some 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.280 time and they both have children from previous relationships. Jess 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:12.359 is an office administrator and David, originally from New Caledonia, 0:02:12.519 --> 0:02:15.280 is a music teacher. Jess and David are here today 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.720 to address a number of things that have been challenging 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:22.679 their relationship, from different definitions of cheating to trust and boundaries. 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:28.720 Here's session one with Jess and David. All right, Hello 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:30.960 Jess and David. It's lovely to see you guys. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:31.639 Hello. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.000 Hi, I guess what I'd usually like to start with 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.919 or it can be helpful for me to know if 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.960 you've had experience in therapy as a couple before, and 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.280 if so, what went well, what didn't go well? 0:02:44.640 --> 0:02:50.640 Okay, so we've tried therapy twice. The first time was 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.320 a bizarre experience. David's running a little bit late, and 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.080 I sat there and chatted to the therapist for a 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.320 couple of minutes, and then he came along and he 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:07.480 was probably there for like, it felt like about maybe 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.040 five or ten minutes, and the therapist said, oh, look, 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.040 she put her pen down and she said, I don't 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.760 think you two should be together. And we kind of 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.799 looked at each other and we didn't know what to do, 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.120 and we left and we gave each other a hug 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.840 and we were like processing it, and then she walked 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.519 past us, and it was just like really weird because 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.440 it was an evening appointment, so we must have been 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.520 her last one. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.880 It's just all very awkward and what a horrible first 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:37.680 experience it was. 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.600 It was for a couple two. The second one did 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.280 not go any better. He initiated it because he thought 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:46.600 we should we give it another go. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:49.880 So David initiated it. 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.960 He did, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he did all 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.560 the booking and everything like that, and I went there 0:03:59.920 --> 0:04:03.440 and I ended up walking out because I was just 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.320 so triggered by something that he said. 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.440 It is what I said, And I guess it happens 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.880 also when I have an argument together, but it was 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:13.720 there in front. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:14.120 Of someone else. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.039 Okay, so this is something that happens at home when 0:04:17.039 --> 0:04:18.400 you guys argue sometimes. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:19.320 Yeah. 0:04:19.479 --> 0:04:21.680 So sometimes Jess will walk away. 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.240 Or or not walk away. It usually goes you know, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.279 it doesn't end up well. We have like really bad 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:32.240 arguments in that situation, but here she she wanted to 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.760 go away. I guess it, you know, because in front 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.599 of someone else it's probably better. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.719 Yeah, Jess, can you tell me a little bit about 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.240 what happened for you in terms of the walking out. Yeah. 0:04:44.280 --> 0:04:48.600 So we had not long got back together. We had 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:54.080 separated for about six months, and during that time he 0:04:54.560 --> 0:05:02.839 had been very close to another woman who is very 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:08.000 very different from me, and her outlook on life is different, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:13.600 her morals are different, and basically that left me feeling 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.599 really insecure because I'm like, if he wants this in 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.919 a woman, how is he ever going to be you know, 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.560 how am I ever going to be enough for him? 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.040 Because that's not who I am that's not who I 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:30.000 want to be, and it left me feel really upset. 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:35.960 And when we went into this therapy session, the therapist 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.920 was trying to get background from us, and so I 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:45.760 raised this other woman as being a big issue for 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:51.920 me because it was leaving me feeling very insecure, because 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.640 I was also surprised that he would be interested in 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.840 someone so different from me in that way. So it 0:05:59.920 --> 0:06:03.880 left me wondering also, not only am I not going 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.880 to be enough for him, but who actually is the 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:16.400 sky because we're so different. And the first thing he 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.440 did was start talking about her and his connection to 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.400 her and how lovely she is, and I'm just like, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.560 I just thought, hang on, we're supposed to be here 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:29.200 for us. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.720 And in that moment rather than going into the actual situation, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.520 because I want us to be able to set up 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.680 what we can do today, if you know, because sometimes 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.640 therapy is about hearing things that are uncomfortable, painful, difficult, 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.640 might make you angry. Yeah, like, what could we do today? 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:53.120 So there was something there where you've been triggered really upset? 0:06:53.280 --> 0:06:56.000 Is there something that we could do if a similar 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.880 thing occurred? Is there something that you could say to us? 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:01.920 Is there something that you could do that you think 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.800 could help kind of bring things back down, or I 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.240 guess we're trying to avoid the conversation being count are 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:15.160 to me, to both of you, yeah, both of you. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.640 Well, I don't know. 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.560 Actually it's a bit of an interesting one because my 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.400 point was not to talk nicely about that that woman. 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.240 My point was to explain why, Like I said, I 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.920 was saying, why, you know, was I attracted to her 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.800 for a while not very long really, but uh, and 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.640 I just try to explain. I think it just just 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.960 heard something different to what I was saying because she 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.480 was concentrating on her you know, the issue at hand. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.240 I was just trying to explain what happened and to 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:56.400 I mean to be honest about like they say that, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.160 you know, I mean it's you that I want, and 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:01.720 you know, I don't think you have to worry. 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.240 Okay, So if we bring it back to so there's 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.760 that reassurance there, which I think is lovely. David, And 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.040 I think you know, I'm hoping for you, Jess that 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.800 coming into today there is a sense of or at 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.280 least a hope to be able to work through some 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:23.040 of the difficult conversations without it having to abruptly end. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.320 I think breaks are okay, Pauses are okay. You know, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.480 if you need to step out or if Dave, you 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.640 know this goes theme for you. If anybody needs to 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:35.359 call time for just a little break and just recenter, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.160 come back in, that's completely fine. I guess it's sort 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.079 of looking at the commitment between the two of you 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.840 is I don't have to say things that you like 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.479 or say things that make you happy, but I do 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.439 have to try and give you the space if you 0:08:48.479 --> 0:08:51.039 need to calm down so that we can continue the conversation. 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.120 Does that feel okay for both of you? 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:02.960 It absolutely does. And I think for me, I'm you know, 0:09:03.119 --> 0:09:07.800 I'm in my forty and i've you know, we've obviously 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:14.959 both had relationships prior to this. In my relationships, I 0:09:15.079 --> 0:09:20.000 was cheated on multiple times. When I picked up on it, 0:09:20.079 --> 0:09:24.400 I was what we now call gas lid into believing that, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:30.640 you know, I was imagining things I wasn't. And so 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.640 I know in myself that I'm on high alert and 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.920 that I'm easily triggered, and I know that I need 0:09:41.239 --> 0:09:47.760 a lot more reassurance than perhaps most guys would expect 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.520 to have to give because of that, But I just 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.040 I feel like I really need him to understand that 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.879 if he is able to give me that reassurance when 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.640 I'm triggered, if he's able to continue to make me 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.000 feel safe, to remind me that he's using me, then 0:10:08.079 --> 0:10:13.239 that will build up enough in my bank that I 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.879 can not worry so much about these other things or 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:23.319 not look at something else and perhaps jump to what 0:10:23.479 --> 0:10:25.080 might not be the case. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.719 And I'm just assuming, just is this one of the 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.479 reasons that you wanted to start this process again, because 0:10:32.479 --> 0:10:36.360 I think it was you who wanted to come into 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.400 this couples therapy process. Is this one of the things 0:10:39.439 --> 0:10:40.400 you wanted to address? 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.240 It absolutely is, because we've been together on and off 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:50.079 for such a long time, and it's the same issues 0:10:50.199 --> 0:10:54.839 again and again and again, and it's the same issues 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.200 for me and for him. I believe it's the same 0:10:58.239 --> 0:10:59.800 issues as well. He'll talk soon. 0:11:00.239 --> 0:11:03.559 Yeah, i'd like to before I forget, because I always going 0:11:03.599 --> 0:11:05.040 to answer something to but. 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:06.400 You finished off. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.880 Yeah, I just I know, I know nobody's perfect, and 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.519 I know I fit into that category of course too, 0:11:14.599 --> 0:11:18.400 But I just feel that when you love someone, you 0:11:18.439 --> 0:11:20.920 give them what they need, especially if they know that 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:26.599 they need it. And then if I had that extra reassurance, 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:33.199 extra security, extra love, I would feel more regulated and 0:11:33.439 --> 0:11:38.199 be able to let go of these worries more easily. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.639 But that takes time. And every time I get upset 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:48.640 by something or triggered, instead of taking that opportunity to 0:11:48.719 --> 0:11:53.360 offer me that reassurance and therefore make me feel safe 0:11:53.839 --> 0:11:57.839 and actually make me feel closer to him, I feel 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.200 like he feels that I don't trust him. I'm attacking him. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:06.280 I'm dragging up the past and it ends up making 0:12:06.359 --> 0:12:10.040 him upset and he escalates as well, and it's not 0:12:10.119 --> 0:12:12.800 healthy for either of us. And we really need to 0:12:12.839 --> 0:12:14.559 be able to move past that. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:15.519 Ye can I? 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:16.600 Yeah? 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:17.480 Because I mean. 0:12:19.199 --> 0:12:22.559 Jess is actually a very good communicator. She knows I 0:12:22.599 --> 0:12:26.679 said that several times. Except so when we have an 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.000 argument or that goes out of the windows, Okay, tell 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:35.079 me what happens, so I I personally, okay, it's one 0:12:36.119 --> 0:12:38.999 You know a thing I've learned from being very. 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:44.040 Small boy, you know, which is, even if things are 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.120 very very hard, and. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.600 Even if you feel attacked, even if somebody is really 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:56.479 horrible to you, tell the truth, be fair, what you 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.920 your world's count like it's your worlds are so important. Now, 0:13:01.199 --> 0:13:03.920 I must admit it's not always the case when you know, 0:13:04.319 --> 0:13:06.520 but I do try to be fair. I try to 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.160 I'm constructive. I'm not destructive. I'm not there to put 0:13:11.199 --> 0:13:18.959 down anyone. So there's moments where I say, I think 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:24.320 the words you're using, Jess are not always correct or helpful, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:31.319 and and so when I feel attacked, right, it's it's 0:13:31.359 --> 0:13:35.079 because I feel that in those moments where we start 0:13:35.119 --> 0:13:37.639 an argument, which could be something it would be good 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.759 to when we start the argument to actually say, we 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.880 could be very careful with our worlds where we're going, 0:13:42.119 --> 0:13:46.559 how we use them, and the aim should never be 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:48.719 to to put down anyone. 0:13:49.239 --> 0:13:52.359 So are you telling me that you feel put down 0:13:52.439 --> 0:13:55.439 by Jess in the arguments? Could you give me an example? 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:07.319 Yeah? I oh, it's a bit okay, So I'm a 0:14:07.359 --> 0:14:09.039 bit well, okay, when fish. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.120 You're a bit worried, and what are you worried about? 0:14:11.359 --> 0:14:11.559 Now? 0:14:12.239 --> 0:14:15.160 Now, what's gonna happen? I'm just gonna okay, I'm gonna 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:23.600 say it again. So Jess tells me she says that 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.600 cheated on her okay, which is because she feels she 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.920 has a different definition for me, it's it's actually. 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:33.880 Highly I feel really. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.880 Very hurt by that because it's not true and I 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.920 care about her, and I mean, you know what I did, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.000 I didn't really you know. I mean, I'm not sleeping 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.680 with anyone else when we're together. I did it once 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.960 when we were separated, because we had several times we 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:52.679 were separated. 0:14:53.119 --> 0:14:56.720 But I actually really care to be fair, to be. 0:14:58.239 --> 0:15:00.520 Also if there's an issue, I want to be direct 0:15:01.359 --> 0:15:05.840 and because we have so, because I I feel like 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:06.920 it's a bit unfair on. 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.560 Me the word so it's the word cheese. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.920 That world there's that's one one of those things, okay, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.280 but it's not the only one. There's a few things 0:15:15.359 --> 0:15:16.479 like that that. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:21.080 I feel that, well, one what are we? You know 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:21.440 what I mean? 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.240 And I feel when it's like that, when I feel 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.519 put down, and I'm like, you know, do I want 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:28.080 to go on? 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.759 Okay? I need to be respected. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.400 And then if I feel respected, even in moments where 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.440 it's really difficult, we have an argument, we need to 0:15:36.479 --> 0:15:37.920 have respect, just the moment. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.720 Where we need to have respect and we need to 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:41.320 be careful. 0:15:42.239 --> 0:15:46.999 And so then if I feel that, of course, then 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:51.200 I want to say, if I feel like I'm attacked. 0:15:51.239 --> 0:15:52.040 It's not just one way. 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.640 Okay, sometimes it's like it just goes almost I feel insulted. 0:15:56.479 --> 0:15:59.119 If I feel insulted, I'm not gonna say, oh, I 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.320 love you. I wanna in that moment, I'm not gonna 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.240 feel like that. I want to stay with you, like 0:16:04.239 --> 0:16:05.640 if I so, what do we do? 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.600 Because that's my question, Like, because I feel that I'm 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.760 I'm actually telling him, hey, you know, I'm being triggered 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.960 by this because it reminds me of this thing that 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:22.120 you did, and he feels attacked by that. And what 0:16:22.239 --> 0:16:26.880 I'm actually really saying is I'm feeling insecure. I need 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.600 reassurance right now. I need you to just hold me, 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.880 tell me you love me, remind me that you're here, 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:33.200 you know, give. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:33.399 Me a hup. 0:16:33.479 --> 0:16:36.480 So I forget all the At the moment, all the 0:16:36.479 --> 0:16:39.320 other noise disappears and it's just the two of us. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.160 But he doesn't hear that. He he is, you know 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.160 you did this, and I'm still angry at you. What 0:16:47.359 --> 0:16:49.680 do you And that's not what I'm saying, And I 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:54.160 don't know what to do because that then his response 0:16:54.359 --> 0:17:01.639 his reaction to that when he feels attacked actually makes 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.440 it worse. So I feel even worse than I do 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.000 when I just had that feeling on my own. So 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.480 first I'm feeling triggered, but I still try to talk 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.959 to him about it. It doesn't work. It makes a 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.999 situation worse because he feels attacked, you know, in his mind, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.840 I think, you know, why is she attacking me? Why 0:17:23.879 --> 0:17:27.760 is she bringing up the past? You know, I need 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.800 to defend myself. So I think there's two things. I 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:32.959 think there's two things happening. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.160 One is, I think we might need to get some 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:39.480 clarity about the past because if it sounds like there's 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.760 not been some resolve around the past things that have happened, 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:44.959 because if there were resolve around the past things that 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:50.040 have happened, they might not come up as often or 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.399 be as easily triggered. And then the part two of 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.080 this is that, Okay, even if something does come up 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.279 and we get triggered, I really want us to break down, actually, 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.000 what are the things that just that you do say 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.119 because you've got the underlying message, but something about the 0:18:06.159 --> 0:18:09.199 words that you're saying is being heard by Dave in 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.719 a different way. And then we're going to work with 0:18:12.879 --> 0:18:16.600 Dave around Okay, how can I start to look at 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.960 the message underneath and not immediately go to what might 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.359 be the surface level content. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.399 Yes, I think that's exactly what we need, because it's 0:18:28.399 --> 0:18:30.680 it's really hard. We were actually talking about the SYS 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.080 today and trying to we figure it out, but we 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:35.159 don't know what the answer is. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.280 An argument, okay, you know when I say that's good, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.679 I say that's good because we can use that. I 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.920 actually feel like examples of real life recent arguments can 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.800 actually go quite well for us to use as the 0:18:48.919 --> 0:18:51.480 kind of guinea pig for how do we do things differently. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.760 I'd like to say that the reason why we got 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:59.119 out of that argument is because Jess is actually very 0:18:59.119 --> 0:18:59.840 good communicator. 0:18:59.960 --> 0:19:01.520 So she managed to put down things. 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.440 In a way that I realized what she was fitting 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:07.920 and what I don't even though if it's really old 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.080 stuff that came again on her face a look like 0:19:10.159 --> 0:19:13.600 that story and we told you. She managed to so 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.080 make me go there with her and I could sort 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.960 of empathize, and then I sort of okay, I got it, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:22.040 you know a little bit. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.359 I mean, it's it's her point of view. It's not 0:19:25.399 --> 0:19:26.560 all the tools or whatever. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.800 I can't see Oh, it's not even it's my it's 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:30.520 not like it's not the way. 0:19:30.919 --> 0:19:31.999 You don't have to agree. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.720 It's not like I didn't do anything wrong exactly. It's 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.679 not the problem. It's how she felt because of what 0:19:37.879 --> 0:19:39.919 happened or what I did wrong or not. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.680 And I think that's a difference between validating and agreeing. 0:19:43.159 --> 0:19:47.720 I can validate how you feel without saying, yes, you're right, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:49.759 I am a cheater and I did this and I 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.640 did that. You can validate. I can see that you're 0:19:53.679 --> 0:19:56.320 feeling really insecure and that you need some closeness with me, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:57.679 or you need me to let you know that I 0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.720 love you right now, you know. So you can say 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.600 things like that without agreeing with the actual content of 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:04.520 what they're thinking. 0:20:04.639 --> 0:20:07.679 But what I need, that's what I need. That's what 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:08.159 I need. 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.080 And well, you're saying it went well yesterday in terms. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.520 Of not well it went well at neand but well, okay. 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.720 You guys salvaged it. So how did it go well? 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.560 Like what? Because this is when the things that do work, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.600 it's important to note those. So Jess managed to communicate 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.280 it in a way that you could hear it. What 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:24.679 was it? 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.080 I could go with her in the way she feels. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.720 So I managed to understand that, and I think, yeah, 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:37.320 that's just but it it doesn't solve some of the 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.080 but still there's a lot of communication that happened. So 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.280 and I have a previty about memory. So some things 0:20:46.639 --> 0:20:50.000 I remember completely different from her. I trust her more 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:51.919 than me. My memory is pretty shocking. 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.399 So, and when you're experiencing something, his view through a 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.239 different lenes anyway. So I'm viewing things through a different 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.800 leanes from him anyway. So even if we remember the 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.440 same things, clearly, we're going to remember them a different way. 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.639 Yeah, but there's been there's been issues because what's what's 0:21:12.639 --> 0:21:13.280 been happening. 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:14.840 I mean, if you don't man, I can talk. 0:21:14.919 --> 0:21:15.919 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.879 What's been happening is Jesse is worried about my female 0:21:20.919 --> 0:21:21.760 friends that I've got. 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.119 So I do, I do some. 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:28.119 Music, and I have a lot of friends made of 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:36.760 female and so she's worried at something there people I'm 0:21:36.919 --> 0:21:39.520 you know, attracted to or I want to be with 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.800 or something. So it ends up being very difficult for 0:21:43.919 --> 0:21:49.879 her to go to my music sessions or when I 0:21:49.879 --> 0:21:51.960 play live or something. And I would really like her 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:52.320 to come. 0:21:52.919 --> 0:21:53.719 So I missed that. 0:21:53.879 --> 0:21:55.560 I miss that she's not there with me when I 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.320 do these things because it's something I'm proud of and 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:04.600 I want her to be part of it. So I 0:22:04.639 --> 0:22:08.239 playing at no. You know, there's not really any words 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.040 to have there, and actually it would be really I 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.239 think she againes she wants to go. She wants to go, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.879 she wants to find a way to go there. I 0:22:15.919 --> 0:22:17.959 know you're a bit worried about the crowds as well. 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.520 I don't have a problem with his female friends. I 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.759 saw he had a lot of female friends when I 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.119 met him, and I saw that as a green flag, 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:29.399 and I was excited because I thought, I'm going to 0:22:29.399 --> 0:22:32.880 get a new group of girlfriends. You know, if they 0:22:32.919 --> 0:22:34.880 love him, they're going to love me because I love 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.239 him too. We've got that in common. But then, like 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.399 you said earlier, I feel that he's cheated on me 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.199 a couple of times. They're things that he's said and done. 0:22:47.399 --> 0:22:52.960 We talked about that a little bit yesterday, but we've 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.239 got different ideas about that. And I know I know 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.840 people have you know, I've got friends who are Polly, 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.720 I've got friends who, you know, diferal kinds of things. 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.040 But I think if both partners are on the same page, 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:11.479 if that's okay. But for me, I don't have a 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.320 thing about his female friends. I have a thing about 0:23:15.639 --> 0:23:19.119