Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, No Filter listeners. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm
Speaker 2: a clinical psychotherapist and the host of Mamma MIA's newest podcast,
Speaker 2: This is Why We Fight, where eight different pairs share
Speaker 2: their relationship challenges in authentic therapy sessions so that you
Speaker 2: can benefit from what they learn and also learn more
Speaker 2: about the therapy process. I think that No Filter fans
Speaker 2: would be particularly interested in Jess and David, a couple
Speaker 2: with very different definitions of cheating and who are very
Speaker 2: different needs and communication styles, and they're grappling with how
Speaker 2: to move forward in their relationship.
Speaker 3: Have a listen. I hope you enjoy. Mamma Mia acknowledges
Speaker 3: the traditional owners of the land and waters. This podcast
Speaker 3: was recorded.
Speaker 4: On So for me, I feel that he is ashamed
Speaker 4: of me, embarrassed of me. I feel like I'm good
Speaker 4: enough for him, but not for his public image, and
Speaker 4: that really hurts and that makes me feel really insecure.
Speaker 4: He doesn't post anything of us on his social media.
Speaker 4: He hasn't introduced me to his family. You know, I
Speaker 4: don't know many of his friends. I feel at times
Speaker 4: like I'm a side peace.
Speaker 3: Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems,
Speaker 3: real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
Speaker 3: psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
Speaker 3: and families. This series has been designed to allow you,
Speaker 3: our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of
Speaker 3: other people who are grappling with the challenges in their relationships,
Speaker 3: because I firmly believe that we can learn so much
Speaker 3: from each other. Today you're meeting Jess and David Perth couple.
Speaker 3: Jess and David are in their forties. They're not married,
Speaker 3: but they've been in a long term relationship for some
Speaker 3: time and they both have children from previous relationships. Jess
Speaker 3: is an office administrator and David, originally from New Caledonia,
Speaker 3: is a music teacher. Jess and David are here today
Speaker 3: to address a number of things that have been challenging
Speaker 3: their relationship, from different definitions of cheating to trust and boundaries.
Speaker 3: Here's session one with Jess and David. All right, Hello
Speaker 3: Jess and David. It's lovely to see you guys.
Speaker 5: Hello.
Speaker 3: Hi, I guess what I'd usually like to start with
Speaker 3: or it can be helpful for me to know if
Speaker 3: you've had experience in therapy as a couple before, and
Speaker 3: if so, what went well, what didn't go well?
Speaker 4: Okay, so we've tried therapy twice. The first time was
Speaker 4: a bizarre experience. David's running a little bit late, and
Speaker 4: I sat there and chatted to the therapist for a
Speaker 4: couple of minutes, and then he came along and he
Speaker 4: was probably there for like, it felt like about maybe
Speaker 4: five or ten minutes, and the therapist said, oh, look,
Speaker 4: she put her pen down and she said, I don't
Speaker 4: think you two should be together. And we kind of
Speaker 4: looked at each other and we didn't know what to do,
Speaker 4: and we left and we gave each other a hug
Speaker 4: and we were like processing it, and then she walked
Speaker 4: past us, and it was just like really weird because
Speaker 4: it was an evening appointment, so we must have been
Speaker 4: her last one.
Speaker 3: It's just all very awkward and what a horrible first
Speaker 3: experience it was.
Speaker 4: It was for a couple two. The second one did
Speaker 4: not go any better. He initiated it because he thought
Speaker 4: we should we give it another go.
Speaker 3: So David initiated it.
Speaker 4: He did, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he did all
Speaker 4: the booking and everything like that, and I went there
Speaker 4: and I ended up walking out because I was just
Speaker 4: so triggered by something that he said.
Speaker 6: It is what I said, And I guess it happens
Speaker 6: also when I have an argument together, but it was
Speaker 6: there in front.
Speaker 5: Of someone else.
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is something that happens at home when
Speaker 3: you guys argue sometimes.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So sometimes Jess will walk away.
Speaker 6: Or or not walk away. It usually goes you know,
Speaker 6: it doesn't end up well. We have like really bad
Speaker 6: arguments in that situation, but here she she wanted to
Speaker 6: go away. I guess it, you know, because in front
Speaker 6: of someone else it's probably better.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jess, can you tell me a little bit about
Speaker 3: what happened for you in terms of the walking out. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So we had not long got back together. We had
Speaker 4: separated for about six months, and during that time he
Speaker 4: had been very close to another woman who is very
Speaker 4: very different from me, and her outlook on life is different,
Speaker 4: her morals are different, and basically that left me feeling
Speaker 4: really insecure because I'm like, if he wants this in
Speaker 4: a woman, how is he ever going to be you know,
Speaker 4: how am I ever going to be enough for him?
Speaker 4: Because that's not who I am that's not who I
Speaker 4: want to be, and it left me feel really upset.
Speaker 4: And when we went into this therapy session, the therapist
Speaker 4: was trying to get background from us, and so I
Speaker 4: raised this other woman as being a big issue for
Speaker 4: me because it was leaving me feeling very insecure, because
Speaker 4: I was also surprised that he would be interested in
Speaker 4: someone so different from me in that way. So it
Speaker 4: left me wondering also, not only am I not going
Speaker 4: to be enough for him, but who actually is the
Speaker 4: sky because we're so different. And the first thing he
Speaker 4: did was start talking about her and his connection to
Speaker 4: her and how lovely she is, and I'm just like,
Speaker 4: I just thought, hang on, we're supposed to be here
Speaker 4: for us.
Speaker 3: And in that moment rather than going into the actual situation,
Speaker 3: because I want us to be able to set up
Speaker 3: what we can do today, if you know, because sometimes
Speaker 3: therapy is about hearing things that are uncomfortable, painful, difficult,
Speaker 3: might make you angry. Yeah, like, what could we do today?
Speaker 3: So there was something there where you've been triggered really upset?
Speaker 3: Is there something that we could do if a similar
Speaker 3: thing occurred? Is there something that you could say to us?
Speaker 3: Is there something that you could do that you think
Speaker 3: could help kind of bring things back down, or I
Speaker 3: guess we're trying to avoid the conversation being count are
Speaker 3: to me, to both of you, yeah, both of you.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know.
Speaker 6: Actually it's a bit of an interesting one because my
Speaker 6: point was not to talk nicely about that that woman.
Speaker 6: My point was to explain why, Like I said, I
Speaker 6: was saying, why, you know, was I attracted to her
Speaker 6: for a while not very long really, but uh, and
Speaker 6: I just try to explain. I think it just just
Speaker 6: heard something different to what I was saying because she
Speaker 6: was concentrating on her you know, the issue at hand.
Speaker 6: I was just trying to explain what happened and to
Speaker 6: I mean to be honest about like they say that,
Speaker 6: you know, I mean it's you that I want, and
Speaker 6: you know, I don't think you have to worry.
Speaker 3: Okay, So if we bring it back to so there's
Speaker 3: that reassurance there, which I think is lovely. David, And
Speaker 3: I think you know, I'm hoping for you, Jess that
Speaker 3: coming into today there is a sense of or at
Speaker 3: least a hope to be able to work through some
Speaker 3: of the difficult conversations without it having to abruptly end.
Speaker 3: I think breaks are okay, Pauses are okay. You know,
Speaker 3: if you need to step out or if Dave, you
Speaker 3: know this goes theme for you. If anybody needs to
Speaker 3: call time for just a little break and just recenter,
Speaker 3: come back in, that's completely fine. I guess it's sort
Speaker 3: of looking at the commitment between the two of you
Speaker 3: is I don't have to say things that you like
Speaker 3: or say things that make you happy, but I do
Speaker 3: have to try and give you the space if you
Speaker 3: need to calm down so that we can continue the conversation.
Speaker 3: Does that feel okay for both of you?
Speaker 4: It absolutely does. And I think for me, I'm you know,
Speaker 4: I'm in my forty and i've you know, we've obviously
Speaker 4: both had relationships prior to this. In my relationships, I
Speaker 4: was cheated on multiple times. When I picked up on it,
Speaker 4: I was what we now call gas lid into believing that,
Speaker 4: you know, I was imagining things I wasn't. And so
Speaker 4: I know in myself that I'm on high alert and
Speaker 4: that I'm easily triggered, and I know that I need
Speaker 4: a lot more reassurance than perhaps most guys would expect
Speaker 4: to have to give because of that, But I just
Speaker 4: I feel like I really need him to understand that
Speaker 4: if he is able to give me that reassurance when
Speaker 4: I'm triggered, if he's able to continue to make me
Speaker 4: feel safe, to remind me that he's using me, then
Speaker 4: that will build up enough in my bank that I
Speaker 4: can not worry so much about these other things or
Speaker 4: not look at something else and perhaps jump to what
Speaker 4: might not be the case.
Speaker 3: And I'm just assuming, just is this one of the
Speaker 3: reasons that you wanted to start this process again, because
Speaker 3: I think it was you who wanted to come into
Speaker 3: this couples therapy process. Is this one of the things
Speaker 3: you wanted to address?
Speaker 4: It absolutely is, because we've been together on and off
Speaker 4: for such a long time, and it's the same issues
Speaker 4: again and again and again, and it's the same issues
Speaker 4: for me and for him. I believe it's the same
Speaker 4: issues as well. He'll talk soon.
Speaker 6: Yeah, i'd like to before I forget, because I always going
Speaker 6: to answer something to but.
Speaker 5: You finished off.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just I know, I know nobody's perfect, and
Speaker 4: I know I fit into that category of course too,
Speaker 4: But I just feel that when you love someone, you
Speaker 4: give them what they need, especially if they know that
Speaker 4: they need it. And then if I had that extra reassurance,
Speaker 4: extra security, extra love, I would feel more regulated and
Speaker 4: be able to let go of these worries more easily.
Speaker 4: But that takes time. And every time I get upset
Speaker 4: by something or triggered, instead of taking that opportunity to
Speaker 4: offer me that reassurance and therefore make me feel safe
Speaker 4: and actually make me feel closer to him, I feel
Speaker 4: like he feels that I don't trust him. I'm attacking him.
Speaker 4: I'm dragging up the past and it ends up making
Speaker 4: him upset and he escalates as well, and it's not
Speaker 4: healthy for either of us. And we really need to
Speaker 4: be able to move past that.
Speaker 5: Ye can I?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Because I mean.
Speaker 6: Jess is actually a very good communicator. She knows I
Speaker 6: said that several times. Except so when we have an
Speaker 6: argument or that goes out of the windows, Okay, tell
Speaker 6: me what happens, so I I personally, okay, it's one
Speaker 6: You know a thing I've learned from being very.
Speaker 5: Small boy, you know, which is, even if things are
Speaker 5: very very hard, and.
Speaker 6: Even if you feel attacked, even if somebody is really
Speaker 6: horrible to you, tell the truth, be fair, what you
Speaker 6: your world's count like it's your worlds are so important. Now,
Speaker 6: I must admit it's not always the case when you know,
Speaker 6: but I do try to be fair. I try to
Speaker 6: I'm constructive. I'm not destructive. I'm not there to put
Speaker 6: down anyone. So there's moments where I say, I think
Speaker 6: the words you're using, Jess are not always correct or helpful,
Speaker 6: and and so when I feel attacked, right, it's it's
Speaker 6: because I feel that in those moments where we start
Speaker 6: an argument, which could be something it would be good
Speaker 6: to when we start the argument to actually say, we
Speaker 6: could be very careful with our worlds where we're going,
Speaker 6: how we use them, and the aim should never be
Speaker 6: to to put down anyone.
Speaker 3: So are you telling me that you feel put down
Speaker 3: by Jess in the arguments? Could you give me an example?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I oh, it's a bit okay, So I'm a
Speaker 5: bit well, okay, when fish.
Speaker 3: You're a bit worried, and what are you worried about?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 6: Now, what's gonna happen? I'm just gonna okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 6: say it again. So Jess tells me she says that
Speaker 6: cheated on her okay, which is because she feels she
Speaker 6: has a different definition for me, it's it's actually.
Speaker 5: Highly I feel really.
Speaker 6: Very hurt by that because it's not true and I
Speaker 6: care about her, and I mean, you know what I did,
Speaker 6: I didn't really you know. I mean, I'm not sleeping
Speaker 6: with anyone else when we're together. I did it once
Speaker 6: when we were separated, because we had several times we
Speaker 6: were separated.
Speaker 5: But I actually really care to be fair, to be.
Speaker 6: Also if there's an issue, I want to be direct
Speaker 6: and because we have so, because I I feel like
Speaker 6: it's a bit unfair on.
Speaker 3: Me the word so it's the word cheese.
Speaker 6: That world there's that's one one of those things, okay,
Speaker 6: but it's not the only one. There's a few things
Speaker 6: like that that.
Speaker 5: I feel that, well, one what are we? You know
Speaker 5: what I mean?
Speaker 6: And I feel when it's like that, when I feel
Speaker 6: put down, and I'm like, you know, do I want
Speaker 6: to go on?
Speaker 5: Okay? I need to be respected.
Speaker 6: And then if I feel respected, even in moments where
Speaker 6: it's really difficult, we have an argument, we need to
Speaker 6: have respect, just the moment.
Speaker 5: Where we need to have respect and we need to
Speaker 5: be careful.
Speaker 6: And so then if I feel that, of course, then
Speaker 6: I want to say, if I feel like I'm attacked.
Speaker 5: It's not just one way.
Speaker 6: Okay, sometimes it's like it just goes almost I feel insulted.
Speaker 6: If I feel insulted, I'm not gonna say, oh, I
Speaker 6: love you. I wanna in that moment, I'm not gonna
Speaker 6: feel like that. I want to stay with you, like
Speaker 6: if I so, what do we do?
Speaker 4: Because that's my question, Like, because I feel that I'm
Speaker 4: I'm actually telling him, hey, you know, I'm being triggered
Speaker 4: by this because it reminds me of this thing that
Speaker 4: you did, and he feels attacked by that. And what
Speaker 4: I'm actually really saying is I'm feeling insecure. I need
Speaker 4: reassurance right now. I need you to just hold me,
Speaker 4: tell me you love me, remind me that you're here,
Speaker 4: you know, give.
Speaker 5: Me a hup.
Speaker 4: So I forget all the At the moment, all the
Speaker 4: other noise disappears and it's just the two of us.
Speaker 4: But he doesn't hear that. He he is, you know
Speaker 4: you did this, and I'm still angry at you. What
Speaker 4: do you And that's not what I'm saying, And I
Speaker 4: don't know what to do because that then his response
Speaker 4: his reaction to that when he feels attacked actually makes
Speaker 4: it worse. So I feel even worse than I do
Speaker 4: when I just had that feeling on my own. So
Speaker 4: first I'm feeling triggered, but I still try to talk
Speaker 4: to him about it. It doesn't work. It makes a
Speaker 4: situation worse because he feels attacked, you know, in his mind,
Speaker 4: I think, you know, why is she attacking me? Why
Speaker 4: is she bringing up the past? You know, I need
Speaker 4: to defend myself. So I think there's two things. I
Speaker 4: think there's two things happening.
Speaker 3: One is, I think we might need to get some
Speaker 3: clarity about the past because if it sounds like there's
Speaker 3: not been some resolve around the past things that have happened,
Speaker 3: because if there were resolve around the past things that
Speaker 3: have happened, they might not come up as often or
Speaker 3: be as easily triggered. And then the part two of
Speaker 3: this is that, Okay, even if something does come up
Speaker 3: and we get triggered, I really want us to break down, actually,
Speaker 3: what are the things that just that you do say
Speaker 3: because you've got the underlying message, but something about the
Speaker 3: words that you're saying is being heard by Dave in
Speaker 3: a different way. And then we're going to work with
Speaker 3: Dave around Okay, how can I start to look at
Speaker 3: the message underneath and not immediately go to what might
Speaker 3: be the surface level content.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's exactly what we need, because it's
Speaker 4: it's really hard. We were actually talking about the SYS
Speaker 4: today and trying to we figure it out, but we
Speaker 4: don't know what the answer is.
Speaker 3: An argument, okay, you know when I say that's good,
Speaker 3: I say that's good because we can use that. I
Speaker 3: actually feel like examples of real life recent arguments can
Speaker 3: actually go quite well for us to use as the
Speaker 3: kind of guinea pig for how do we do things differently.
Speaker 6: I'd like to say that the reason why we got
Speaker 6: out of that argument is because Jess is actually very
Speaker 6: good communicator.
Speaker 5: So she managed to put down things.
Speaker 6: In a way that I realized what she was fitting
Speaker 6: and what I don't even though if it's really old
Speaker 6: stuff that came again on her face a look like
Speaker 6: that story and we told you. She managed to so
Speaker 6: make me go there with her and I could sort
Speaker 6: of empathize, and then I sort of okay, I got it,
Speaker 6: you know a little bit.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's her point of view. It's not
Speaker 5: all the tools or whatever.
Speaker 6: I can't see Oh, it's not even it's my it's
Speaker 6: not like it's not the way.
Speaker 3: You don't have to agree.
Speaker 6: It's not like I didn't do anything wrong exactly. It's
Speaker 6: not the problem. It's how she felt because of what
Speaker 6: happened or what I did wrong or not.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a difference between validating and agreeing.
Speaker 3: I can validate how you feel without saying, yes, you're right,
Speaker 3: I am a cheater and I did this and I
Speaker 3: did that. You can validate. I can see that you're
Speaker 3: feeling really insecure and that you need some closeness with me,
Speaker 3: or you need me to let you know that I
Speaker 3: love you right now, you know. So you can say
Speaker 3: things like that without agreeing with the actual content of
Speaker 3: what they're thinking.
Speaker 4: But what I need, that's what I need. That's what
Speaker 4: I need.
Speaker 3: And well, you're saying it went well yesterday in terms.
Speaker 5: Of not well it went well at neand but well, okay.
Speaker 3: You guys salvaged it. So how did it go well?
Speaker 3: Like what? Because this is when the things that do work,
Speaker 3: it's important to note those. So Jess managed to communicate
Speaker 3: it in a way that you could hear it. What
Speaker 3: was it?
Speaker 6: I could go with her in the way she feels.
Speaker 6: So I managed to understand that, and I think, yeah,
Speaker 6: that's just but it it doesn't solve some of the
Speaker 6: but still there's a lot of communication that happened. So
Speaker 6: and I have a previty about memory. So some things
Speaker 6: I remember completely different from her. I trust her more
Speaker 6: than me. My memory is pretty shocking.
Speaker 4: So, and when you're experiencing something, his view through a
Speaker 4: different lenes anyway. So I'm viewing things through a different
Speaker 4: leanes from him anyway. So even if we remember the
Speaker 4: same things, clearly, we're going to remember them a different way.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but there's been there's been issues because what's what's
Speaker 6: been happening.
Speaker 5: I mean, if you don't man, I can talk.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6: What's been happening is Jesse is worried about my female
Speaker 6: friends that I've got.
Speaker 5: So I do, I do some.
Speaker 6: Music, and I have a lot of friends made of
Speaker 6: female and so she's worried at something there people I'm
Speaker 6: you know, attracted to or I want to be with
Speaker 6: or something. So it ends up being very difficult for
Speaker 6: her to go to my music sessions or when I
Speaker 6: play live or something. And I would really like her
Speaker 6: to come.
Speaker 5: So I missed that.
Speaker 6: I miss that she's not there with me when I
Speaker 6: do these things because it's something I'm proud of and
Speaker 6: I want her to be part of it. So I
Speaker 6: playing at no. You know, there's not really any words
Speaker 6: to have there, and actually it would be really I
Speaker 6: think she againes she wants to go. She wants to go,
Speaker 6: she wants to find a way to go there. I
Speaker 6: know you're a bit worried about the crowds as well.
Speaker 4: I don't have a problem with his female friends. I
Speaker 4: saw he had a lot of female friends when I
Speaker 4: met him, and I saw that as a green flag,
Speaker 4: and I was excited because I thought, I'm going to
Speaker 4: get a new group of girlfriends. You know, if they
Speaker 4: love him, they're going to love me because I love
Speaker 4: him too. We've got that in common. But then, like
Speaker 4: you said earlier, I feel that he's cheated on me
Speaker 4: a couple of times. They're things that he's said and done.
Speaker 4: We talked about that a little bit yesterday, but we've
Speaker 4: got different ideas about that. And I know I know
Speaker 4: people have you know, I've got friends who are Polly,
Speaker 4: I've got friends who, you know, diferal kinds of things.
Speaker 4: But I think if both partners are on the same page,
Speaker 4: if that's okay. But for me, I don't have a
Speaker 4: thing about his female friends. I have a thing about
Speaker 4: like when we've had an argument and he says I
Speaker 4: should be with her instead of with you, and then
Speaker 4: he goes to her and he talks about our relationship issues, like,
Speaker 4: I don't think that's appropriate to talk to someone that
Speaker 4: you said that you should be with instead of me.
Speaker 4: I don't want to go into a lot of details.
Speaker 4: It's an argument now.
Speaker 1: Well, but he takes that as me saying, well, he
Speaker 1: takes that as me saying, you can't talk to his
Speaker 1: female friends, and not what I'm saying, and what I'm
Speaker 1: saying not the ones that you told me that you
Speaker 1: would write.
Speaker 3: And David, please do not worry. You will you will
Speaker 3: get to it, like don't There is time for both
Speaker 3: of you, and I think it's important to let Jess say.
Speaker 3: You know you've said that she has a problem with
Speaker 3: your friends, your female friends. Jess is actually trying to
Speaker 3: tell you something that no, I don't. I don't have
Speaker 3: a problem with your female friends, but I do there
Speaker 3: have been some things that you've said in the past,
Speaker 3: or you know that have made me feel uncomfortable with
Speaker 3: certain female friends. And then now to you, David.
Speaker 6: Tell us, Yeah, well, this particular incident is one that
Speaker 6: sort of didn't have the with the argument we had
Speaker 6: there before yesterday. So I'm going to say that it's
Speaker 6: only a part of the toast the fact what we
Speaker 6: had after a big argument that day that I'm talking
Speaker 6: about a long time ago.
Speaker 5: So was it what your or something? And that was
Speaker 5: on the.
Speaker 6: Phone, and I was very very stressed with it because
Speaker 6: again it's one of those times where I felt good, okay,
Speaker 6: and then after annoying feeling very annoyed and bothered and
Speaker 6: feeling like, oh god, I can't deal with that. Then
Speaker 6: she asks me, so do you want to be do
Speaker 6: you prefer to be with that person?
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm like at the moment, I'm sorry, but yeah.
Speaker 4: You know I remember that differently. I don't. I'm sure
Speaker 4: I didn't say that at all. He thinks I did.
Speaker 5: Well, it was.
Speaker 6: I've got about the memory, but I know it was
Speaker 6: something that you really did triggered it and it wasn't nice.
Speaker 3: However that happened in some way, shape or form, it
Speaker 3: came out and not just you randomly bringing that up, saying, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, I think I should be with her, but yeah,
Speaker 3: that came out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like, and when you feel like attacked for you know,
Speaker 6: hours or whatever, at the end you're like, god, I'll
Speaker 6: have enough.
Speaker 5: You know, it's normal.
Speaker 3: And I think this is it trying not to hear
Speaker 3: this as a criticism, David, because I think everybody can
Speaker 3: relate to saying things that we don't mean, or saying
Speaker 3: things without thinking when we're under stressed, when we're feeling criticized, when.
Speaker 5: We're because it wasn't right, I'm not saying it as well.
Speaker 3: I said that, yeah, And I think that's the bit
Speaker 3: is I can tell you don't think that that was
Speaker 3: a good thing to say, but it's hard to see
Speaker 3: that message when you are trying to justify why you
Speaker 3: said it, because it sort of makes it seem like, then, well,
Speaker 3: because Jess was doing this, this this to me, that's
Speaker 3: why that came out, which is logistically and factually potentially correct,
Speaker 3: But in that it gets lost that actually, you know what,
Speaker 3: I can understand how me saying that would be really
Speaker 3: hurtful and it doesn't mean and it makes sense as
Speaker 3: to why you might feel uncomfortable with me with this
Speaker 3: friend after I said something like that. Does that feel true?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do, I do, And interestingly, I mean, we've
Speaker 6: been thinking to catch up with her together.
Speaker 5: I'm still worried that. I don't know how it's gonna
Speaker 5: if it could work, but it'd be good.
Speaker 3: So, Jess, you're seeming a little bit about about Dave
Speaker 3: being worried. Do you think there's anything to worry about Dave.
Speaker 4: I think Dave's worried about the wrong thing. I think
Speaker 4: he should be worried about supporting me and making me
Speaker 4: feel safe going into a situation with a women, women
Speaker 4: that I consider that he you know, kind of like
Speaker 4: emotionally cheated on me with. But he's worried that I'm
Speaker 4: going to say something. I'm not going to say something
Speaker 4: to her. I run from confrontation. I don't like it
Speaker 4: at all. I'm very I'm not very.
Speaker 3: You're not going to cause a problem with strong.
Speaker 4: And that sense or anything. Well, I'm more likely to
Speaker 4: run away I am. And he knows that deep down.
Speaker 4: I'm sure he does. But and look, this person is
Speaker 4: probably a lovely person. I've you know, not heard anything
Speaker 4: nasty about them. But I don't have anything personally against
Speaker 4: this person at all, you know, And and I don't
Speaker 4: mind if he I mean, I don't like him talking
Speaker 4: about our relationship to his friends, but I know that
Speaker 4: that's what people do, and I know that I have
Speaker 4: done it, so it's fair that he does it too.
Speaker 4: And it's good that he's got a couple of friends
Speaker 4: he can trust enough to talk to about our relationship.
Speaker 4: And you know what, if that females, that is potentially
Speaker 4: even better because I'm probably a bit more empathetic and
Speaker 4: can give him the female viewpoint. But what I do
Speaker 4: have a problem with is him talking to someone that
Speaker 4: he said he should be with instead of me, And
Speaker 4: that is the issue I take with it. So I
Speaker 4: don't I don't know, like I know now he didn't
Speaker 4: think that. I know that was a heat of the
Speaker 4: moment thing, but still there's a little part of me that,
Speaker 4: you know, doubts, like, you know, when I meet her,
Speaker 4: am I going to be comparing myself to her? You know?
Speaker 4: She is she kinder than me? Is she smarter than me?
Speaker 4: Does she you know, have a better job than me?
Speaker 4: Does she? Is she prettier than me? Is she you know,
Speaker 4: thinner than me? All that kind of thing. You know.
Speaker 4: I'm just a little bit worried if that's what my
Speaker 4: mind is going to do. And I don't want to
Speaker 4: be feeling like that if I do meet her. And
Speaker 4: she's a good friend of his, so I feel like
Speaker 4: I should if I do meet her, I want it
Speaker 4: to be where I'm in a better place, So I
Speaker 4: don't I'm not at risk of you know, defaulting too
Speaker 4: wanting to look for reasons why she's better than me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, can I can answer that.
Speaker 6: No, I'm saying the first thing is she's not better
Speaker 6: than you, okay, and I would not have chosen you
Speaker 6: if it was the case. She's you and.
Speaker 5: And but efybody's different. And I do love people in general.
Speaker 5: I like people.
Speaker 6: I enjoy, you know, having discussions with different types of
Speaker 6: people and learning from them. And so for me, appreciating
Speaker 6: people is like I like that, you know, it's I
Speaker 6: So I guess I said to her. Yeah, I have
Speaker 6: a lot of friends and I love them all in
Speaker 6: a way. Right, doesn't mean I'm going to go and
Speaker 6: sleep with them, But I love having discussions with a
Speaker 6: lot of different people, and yeah, it's it's important for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't think it sounds like just as
Speaker 3: saying there's anything wrong with that part.
Speaker 4: No, I just need for him to realize that he's
Speaker 4: got a girlfriend who's been lied to and cheat it
Speaker 4: on in the past. He's got a girlfriend who you know,
Speaker 4: and our relationship, we both made a few choices that
Speaker 4: have not been the best, and that even though he's apologized,
Speaker 4: although it took a long time to apologize, which did
Speaker 4: affect how well I accepted that even though he's apologized,
Speaker 4: he understands why I felt this way, and I've forgiven him.
Speaker 4: It doesn't make the pain just disappear. It doesn't stop
Speaker 4: the triggers from reappearing. You can do everything right and
Speaker 4: the pain is still there. And that's what I really
Speaker 4: want him to understand is that I accept that he
Speaker 4: seize my flaws, he accepts them, that he has acknowledged
Speaker 4: his own, he's acknowledged the hurt that he's caused for
Speaker 4: our relationship. But I also really need him to understand
Speaker 4: that that doesn't mean the hurt disappears, and that I
Speaker 4: still need I'm still fragile, I'm still vulnerable, and I
Speaker 4: still need support and reassurance. And I just don't get.
Speaker 6: That, and I want to give it to her, and
Speaker 6: it's I don't give her enough, and I understand that,
Speaker 6: but you also understand why why. Now you probably see
Speaker 6: why I can't always do that, but I agree that,
Speaker 6: like I need to do something on that part.
Speaker 3: After this short break, I'm going to assist David and
Speaker 3: Jess in coming up with some strategies and frameworks they
Speaker 3: need before they can even begin to dive into issues
Speaker 3: around cheating and trust stay with us, I think will
Speaker 3: be useful for us to put some strategies in place.
Speaker 3: Let's go to the other part of this, which was
Speaker 3: the maybe some things that aren't resolved, or I think
Speaker 3: the big one maybe to start with is the different
Speaker 3: perceptions about cheating, because I think if we continue to
Speaker 3: have two different ideas about what happened, then of course, yes,
Speaker 3: I can see there's been attempts for repair, but it's
Speaker 3: kind of like a sort of shonky repair work has happened,
Speaker 3: and so things do slip through the cracks, and then
Speaker 3: these arguments happen. So we don't have to get to
Speaker 3: a place of both agreeing that this happened one way,
Speaker 3: but we do need to get to some better sort
Speaker 3: of understanding around it because I think at the moment
Speaker 3: this like, well you cheated, Well no I didn't. I
Speaker 3: think that's kind of destabilizing any further communication between you
Speaker 3: about these type of topics. Yeah, so I don't know
Speaker 3: whether they you know, we can actually talk about the
Speaker 3: instant so instances that this is stemming from.
Speaker 5: Well, probably.
Speaker 6: Again, this is an area where I'm I worry at
Speaker 6: my Yeah, yeah, I just.
Speaker 5: Might want to go.
Speaker 3: That's okay, Jess can tells it. Jess feels like she
Speaker 3: might need to go. Well, let's trust Jess to let
Speaker 3: us know and say, guys, I'm starting to feel like
Speaker 3: throttling him, so I need to step round. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, so I'm trying to remember the whole story.
Speaker 6: But to start with, I want to go back to
Speaker 6: when and so we met her like more than four
Speaker 6: years ago now, maybe almost almost five years ago. And
Speaker 6: to start with, we were just friends with very good friends.
Speaker 6: And so eventually I just realized that when I was
Speaker 6: in Jesse's arms, I just.
Speaker 5: Felt like it was having and I just had this
Speaker 5: stay there.
Speaker 4: So do you recall, Yes, we can plain that text
Speaker 4: to me or something, so.
Speaker 5: That that's what I thought.
Speaker 6: Okay, Look, I have to I have to ask her,
Speaker 6: So I said, can we be together?
Speaker 5: I want to be with you. So yeah, that's how
Speaker 5: we started.
Speaker 6: And I guess from being friends when we started to
Speaker 6: be together, you know, as lovers, I think Jess ended
Speaker 6: up having a lot more worries automatically because for we
Speaker 6: ever passed or something. So there was a lot of
Speaker 6: things that came out that I noticed in terms of confidence.
Speaker 4: A lot of that was because he didn't bring me
Speaker 4: into his phone. I used to be really really fat,
Speaker 4: and I think he was ashamed of that and he
Speaker 4: wouldn't like, he didn't introduce me to his friends, he
Speaker 4: didn't take me out to like, he didn't include me
Speaker 4: in his social life. I mean, I feel that it
Speaker 4: was because of the way that I looked, and that
Speaker 4: started to create a lot of insecurity because he was
Speaker 4: really sweet to me when it was just us or
Speaker 4: us and the kids, but when it was.
Speaker 5: It's a difficult. But I I socially it was well.
Speaker 6: I had some comments from people, so I felt also
Speaker 6: it was probably you know, unfair also on Jess.
Speaker 3: But what do you mean by comment?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was people.
Speaker 6: I had, you know, some some of the people I
Speaker 6: know commenting, oh you know, because she was quite big,
Speaker 6: so they commented I felt that was not right.
Speaker 3: How did you manage that?
Speaker 4: I felt he should.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to ask how did you manage
Speaker 3: those comments from your friends?
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I felt I was upset with it. I
Speaker 6: did say something, you know, I said, it's not you know,
Speaker 6: what are you saying? But that was after so when
Speaker 6: when we were together, nothing happened there.
Speaker 5: But later on I heard something from him, So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was So did that make you feel uncomfortable
Speaker 3: to bring Jess around your friends? Jess is internalizing that
Speaker 3: as because of her weight, but are you saying that
Speaker 3: it was.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's it's obviously I feel like, oh,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't want to put her in that
Speaker 6: situation again.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it didn't come across that way at all.
Speaker 4: I came across as I'm ashamed of you. I care
Speaker 4: about you, but you know.
Speaker 6: I mean it shall Yeah, it's to be honest, it
Speaker 6: was a bit of an issue for me as well
Speaker 6: that she was quite big. And she's done, you know,
Speaker 6: she's done a lot of work on that, but yeah,
Speaker 6: it was a bit of an issue for me as well.
Speaker 3: And were you open about that with Jess?
Speaker 6: Yes, but it was actually quite hurtful for her, so
Speaker 6: I tried to when I stopped that. Eventually I actually
Speaker 6: saw you know, I mean, I I don't want to
Speaker 6: hurt her, you know, I I I sort of saw
Speaker 6: it differently, and I guess to be optimistic is a
Speaker 6: good thing.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: I'm not optimistic. I'm quite pessimistic by nature, so that
Speaker 6: doesn't have but I saw it as well. You know,
Speaker 6: you have you have more to cattle, and I do
Speaker 6: like that. Actually, I really like that. So you know
Speaker 6: when I say, when I'm in her arms arms and
Speaker 6: there's more space there, you know, it's very warm, you know,
Speaker 6: it's I don't know, it's it's better on that fault.
Speaker 3: So in terms of we've got something here. Okay, so
Speaker 3: if we look at the beginning of the relationship.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, so yeah, I went sideways. Yeah, so yes,
Speaker 6: that's the beginning of the relationship. But then well, sorry,
Speaker 6: actually I.
Speaker 3: Don't want to stay with it here, Sorry, I do.
Speaker 3: I want to stay with this issue because I think, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think this sort of led into then more insecurity stuff.
Speaker 3: So let's stick with this for a moment, because I
Speaker 3: think what so Jess was saying there is it didn't
Speaker 3: feel like you were wanting to protect me or yourself
Speaker 3: from other people's comments. It felt like you were judging
Speaker 3: me as well or ashamed of me. Yeah. So if
Speaker 3: this is like the original or initial hurt, and it.
Speaker 4: Really hurt because we were really good friends before we
Speaker 4: started dating, like we loved each other before we were
Speaker 4: in love with each other, like where you just felt
Speaker 4: this connection, a really strong connection, and you know, but
Speaker 4: I just didn't realize until we were together that that
Speaker 4: was always just at my house or his house, or
Speaker 4: when we're going out for the day or doing things together.
Speaker 4: I didn't realize. It took me until we were in
Speaker 4: a relationship to realize that I wasn't around his friends.
Speaker 6: There's two things to that though, Because I wasn't, you know,
Speaker 6: I mean I was, I wouldn't say I was.
Speaker 5: I wasn't a shame of you.
Speaker 6: I It's it's true that when I heard that guy
Speaker 6: said that I was, I felt a bit.
Speaker 5: And it's not just that I want to protect you.
Speaker 6: It's true also I felt, oh god, you know this
Speaker 6: is that I felt it's going to be difficult to
Speaker 6: go out or do anything, so that that that's only issue.
Speaker 5: But it's for me.
Speaker 6: I invited just to my gigs, one gig in particular,
Speaker 6: and she went there and you know when she saw, well,
Speaker 6: I was playing. When I stopped playing during the break,
Speaker 6: I came towards her, and she didn't want to give
Speaker 6: me a hug or anything like that.
Speaker 3: This is the thing she was invited to.
Speaker 6: H or second accompaniment of anywhere, one of the first ones.
Speaker 6: And I know that she was worried about seeing an
Speaker 6: X over there, an ex of.
Speaker 5: Mine. Yeah.
Speaker 6: So but yeah, and she's also told me that she
Speaker 6: didn't like crowds very much. So when we've been doing
Speaker 6: something that was a bit so short, it's always been
Speaker 6: a bit of a there's been an issue, there's been
Speaker 6: like something happened. So it's sort of I feel worried
Speaker 6: about going out with Jess. Yeah, and just so it's yeah,
Speaker 6: it's not just it's not just that one thing. It's
Speaker 6: several things.
Speaker 3: Okay, So okay, So David is saying that there's other
Speaker 3: things around going to more social things that were potential barriers.
Speaker 3: So I mean, Jesse, if you want to speak to
Speaker 3: that a little bit, Even in terms of the gig
Speaker 3: that Dave was talking.
Speaker 4: About, I don't remember that specific night, but it sounds
Speaker 4: like something that won't happen. So for me, I feel
Speaker 4: that he is ashamed of me, embarrassed of me. I
Speaker 4: feel like I'm good enough for him, but not for
Speaker 4: his public image, and that really hurts, and that makes
Speaker 4: me feel really insecure. He doesn't post anything of us
Speaker 4: on his social media. He hasn't introduced me to his family.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know many of his friends. I
Speaker 4: feel at times like I'm a side peace. But when
Speaker 4: it's just the two of us, it's fabulous together. We
Speaker 4: have a great time. We gewl, we laugh, we you know,
Speaker 4: we both, you know, have the same kind of passion
Speaker 4: for spontaneity, and we're easily happy just to have a
Speaker 4: lazy day at home. And it all just seems to
Speaker 4: fit in really well. So when you can buying that,
Speaker 4: I think the feeling, the overall feeling, is that I'm
Speaker 4: not really welcome, like he kind of wants me, but
Speaker 4: he kind of doesn't. In some ways, I don't feel
Speaker 4: fully welcome. If I felt welcome, if I felt safe,
Speaker 4: if I felt secure in the relationship, then none of
Speaker 4: that would be as much of an issue for me
Speaker 4: at all. And I know I would be able to
Speaker 4: relax and not be so nervous.
Speaker 3: And I think that's why I wanted to stick with
Speaker 3: this original issue of feeling ashamed of feeling unattractive or
Speaker 3: not wanted or not accepted in Dave's world, because yes,
Speaker 3: obviously afterwards there have been these things which I think
Speaker 3: we will need to go into around the cheating is that,
Speaker 3: But actually before we go there, I do think this
Speaker 3: is actually probably what's led into all of the other
Speaker 3: stuff happening, because I think you're right there, Jess, where
Speaker 3: if you hadn't felt that he was ashamed of you,
Speaker 3: And this doesn't mean that you were ashamed of her,
Speaker 3: but if that's how Jess feels, and it makes complete
Speaker 3: sense as to why she would feel more insecure about
Speaker 3: the other things.
Speaker 6: I mean, I want to say that I have tried,
Speaker 6: and it's true, it's there are okay, How can I said?
Speaker 5: The main thing for me was the.
Speaker 6: Fact that I was worried about having something happened about
Speaker 6: the reaction, possibly maybe because my ex tails up or
Speaker 6: something else, and then it will can you tell me
Speaker 6: a massive argument?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Can you tell me? Because you've mentioned a couple of
Speaker 3: times and I've even seen here today that you were
Speaker 3: worried about how Jess reacts to things. Can you tell
Speaker 3: me a bit more? And this is not to you know,
Speaker 3: it's not about dubbing each other in for our bad behaviors,
Speaker 3: you know, but we do need to talk about the behaviors.
Speaker 3: And is there things that just does that you find
Speaker 3: really hard to deal with?
Speaker 6: Yeah, So it's interesting because we had a discussion there
Speaker 6: before yesterday and about one of them, which is now
Speaker 6: I don't remember it the same way. So it's interesting.
Speaker 6: But from my point of view, so most of the time,
Speaker 6: if we go up there is something something happens and
Speaker 6: we'll have an argument and it's it's different, but it's
Speaker 6: all the ways to do with meeting my friend, one
Speaker 6: of my friends, or I don't know, me saying the
Speaker 6: wrong world and then it goes into something else which
Speaker 6: goes too far.
Speaker 3: I just interject and say that, So there's never any
Speaker 3: issue it it doesn't happen in public.
Speaker 5: It's it's not just like one person.
Speaker 4: I also don't like confront or anything like that, I'd say,
Speaker 4: and then we argue about it later.
Speaker 5: But that's that's usually what happens.
Speaker 3: That's why Okay, so you anticipate problems and then feel like,
Speaker 3: you know what, it's just easy if we don't go
Speaker 3: out because I don't want her to get upset, and
Speaker 3: then we have.
Speaker 4: Exactly whereas what I'm thinking is I've run away. Obviously
Speaker 4: I wasn't coping. Why is he not supporting me or saying, hey,
Speaker 4: are you okay? You need a hard Can I do anything?
Speaker 4: He's not doing that? Oh, and that's what I need
Speaker 4: in that moment.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I sort of.
Speaker 6: It's difficult if I'm playing though, if I'm organizing, you know,
Speaker 6: one of the jam sessions or something, because I do
Speaker 6: that quite often, so I can't always be next to Jess.
Speaker 6: But I suggested some places where I could you know,
Speaker 6: where we do that, because I'd like you to be
Speaker 6: close to me when I do these things as well.
Speaker 5: It'd be good.
Speaker 3: So if we were to think about the bottom line
Speaker 3: here is how Jess doesn't feel a welcomed or solid
Speaker 3: part of your life. So, and from what I hear
Speaker 3: from your side, Dave, is that she is a part
Speaker 3: of your life and she is welcoming. In fact, you
Speaker 3: do you want her to be a solid part in
Speaker 3: your life?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So to do that.
Speaker 3: I think what's happening though, is it's whatever you're trying
Speaker 3: to do is maybe not the things that just needs
Speaker 3: so if we think about it, I mean, she mentioned
Speaker 3: a few things there around having not met your family.
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's still current their case. I
Speaker 3: have you not met your family or certain friends.
Speaker 5: My family, it's a bit difficult.
Speaker 3: Could it be over FaceTime or a zoom or I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know. Could there be ways to introduce.
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, we've I mean I had my sister and
Speaker 6: I think I had anyway. Yeah, maybe I don't speak
Speaker 6: to my family very often, to be honest, but yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm assuming they know about Jessice existence in your life,
Speaker 3: right well? Yeah, just for you, what would make you
Speaker 3: feel more welcome and a part of Dave's life.
Speaker 4: I want him to be inviting me to be a
Speaker 4: part of that, even if I don't go. I can't
Speaker 4: always go. I have a young child, but I want
Speaker 4: to know that welcome if invited to what anything? Anything. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm not saying I expect to be there for everything,
Speaker 4: because I think it's really important for us to do
Speaker 4: things separately as well, and for him to have his
Speaker 4: own friends, because you know, you're different groups of friends
Speaker 4: sort of feed different parts of your soul at different times,
Speaker 4: and that's really important because then that soul comes back
Speaker 4: to me and I get the benefits. But I just
Speaker 4: need to know that he's we're walking in there, and
Speaker 4: he's you know, he's holding my hand, he's with me.
Speaker 4: He's not going to leave me alone, and he wants
Speaker 4: me there and he's not ashamed of me, and that
Speaker 4: would make me feel better and like him saying, you know, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm worried about what your reaction is going to be.
Speaker 4: I'm wondering, worried about what's going to happen. I don't
Speaker 4: you know. The only thing that's going to happen is
Speaker 4: I'm going to feel uncomfortable and I'm going to slip
Speaker 4: out and then send him a text later or something.
Speaker 4: But you know that that makes me even more anxious
Speaker 4: because I'm already thinking, you know, I know that I'm
Speaker 4: going to stuff up. I just don't know where it's
Speaker 4: going to be. And it's going to make me think
Speaker 4: about that rather than think about you know, if.
Speaker 6: You if you leave a place like that and it's
Speaker 6: just you leaving and you're SA sorry whatever, it's it's fine,
Speaker 6: it's just we Usually what happened after that is there's
Speaker 6: been an argument that.
Speaker 4: He takes it personally when I leave. He doesn't realize
Speaker 4: it's about men's tall, managing my anxiety and removing myself
Speaker 4: from a situation where I feel uncomfortable, because if I
Speaker 4: feel uncomfortable in that situation, other people were going to
Speaker 4: pick up on that, and it's it's gonna it's going
Speaker 4: to be awkward for them, and it's not fair to
Speaker 4: do that to other people that I don't really know.
Speaker 4: It's not really fair to do that to him. So
Speaker 4: for me, I'm actually making a really smart decision when
Speaker 4: I leave, because it saves my anxiety from escalating further.
Speaker 4: It saves him from being inboard by a girlfriend who's
Speaker 4: clearly got something going on. It saves his friends being
Speaker 4: confused and not knowing what's going on. So I genuinely
Speaker 4: feel and I would love to have advice on this
Speaker 4: because I don't know what else to do, because I
Speaker 4: genuinely feel I'm actually making a really smart decision at
Speaker 4: that point to leave while I'm still thinking clearly.
Speaker 6: It's sort of tool and it's what I want to
Speaker 6: make you feel more uncomfortable, and what happened I think
Speaker 6: if I remember, well now is like then I have
Speaker 6: to explain to my friends where you left. So I
Speaker 6: usually said, well, you know, yah, a kid who needs
Speaker 6: to I said to.
Speaker 4: Him, you can just tell them the truth, to tell
Speaker 4: them that she gets really anxious or she's not good
Speaker 4: in social situations and not to take I met one
Speaker 4: of his friends and she was so lovely and she
Speaker 4: was so sweet, and I said that to her. I said, look,
Speaker 4: I have to be honest, I don't know how long
Speaker 4: I can stay because I'm really nervous at the moment.
Speaker 4: And she was like, oh, don't worry, you know, we're
Speaker 4: all nervous, blah blah blah. But the way she said it,
Speaker 4: it actually felt like, you know, it would be okay
Speaker 4: and she wouldn't be offended. And I did say to her, look,
Speaker 4: you know, please just don't take it personally if you
Speaker 4: turn around and I'm gone, because that's just me.
Speaker 6: I'd love her to meet more exactly for that.
Speaker 4: I know it's weird, I.
Speaker 3: Know, but it's not weird. And look, I think my
Speaker 3: only thought around that. I mean, number one, I think
Speaker 3: it's great that you are able to check in with
Speaker 3: yourself and know where your limits are and if it's
Speaker 3: not feeling good or you need to step away. I
Speaker 3: think that is really important, because you're right. Sometimes it
Speaker 3: does further damage to ourself or our partner when we
Speaker 3: try and push through and we don't listen to what
Speaker 3: we really need. There could be a middle ground, though,
Speaker 3: where you step out for a bit and whether that
Speaker 3: be something that Dave is a part of, and like,
Speaker 3: we love that it's with you to try and help
Speaker 3: yourself sooth so you can come back, like what if
Speaker 3: you rather than leaving. And sometimes you might actually just
Speaker 3: have to leave and that's okay, But there might be
Speaker 3: other times where it's like I'm definitely not coping right now,
Speaker 3: but I could be brought back down and be able
Speaker 3: to come back in, you know. So there'd be times
Speaker 3: where maybe you don't have to miss the whole thing
Speaker 3: and you could step out and that could be something
Speaker 3: that Dave could support you.
Speaker 4: I actually love that. I think that's great because I'm
Speaker 4: just listening to him now and I'm realizing I'm not
Speaker 4: actually thinking about how he's left to handle the situation
Speaker 4: after I'm gone. I'm just so proud of myself for
Speaker 4: getting out when I.
Speaker 3: Needed to, Like, I'm out of the fire.
Speaker 4: You know, Dave's sitting there.
Speaker 6: I think, well, that would help me if when you leave,
Speaker 6: just could come to me and say, Dave, I'm sorry
Speaker 6: I have to leave. You know, but there's not there's
Speaker 6: no issues. I just need some space or whatever. And
Speaker 6: that would that would really.
Speaker 3: Have So do you normally slip out without letting Dave
Speaker 3: know or without telling this?
Speaker 4: I have to be honest. Sometimes I wait till he
Speaker 4: goes and gets a drink, and then I'll slip out
Speaker 4: because I know that I'll have a couple of minutes
Speaker 4: to get away. But last time I get that he
Speaker 4: called me an uber, so that was really sweet of him.
Speaker 4: He was really annoyed at me, but he still called
Speaker 4: me an uber.
Speaker 5: I would so.
Speaker 3: Maybe we just got to tweak what's happening here a
Speaker 3: little bit, right. So do you think, Dave that for you,
Speaker 3: you would feel more happy and comfortable about Jess coming
Speaker 3: to social things or gigs with you if you knew
Speaker 3: that you had a better system where you would trust
Speaker 3: that if she wasn't feeling.
Speaker 6: Okay, there's no I mean an argument after that, it's
Speaker 6: going to be fine. Even if she's try girls with
Speaker 6: a friend doesn't get on, We're going to be all right.
Speaker 3: When we come back. It's time to think about the
Speaker 3: homework that Jess and David need to work on between
Speaker 3: sessions back in a tick. Homework is a big part
Speaker 3: of couples and family therapy. As much as some people
Speaker 3: wish their therapists could move in with them, we can't.
Speaker 3: So homework is where people can practice new kinds of
Speaker 3: communication and different responses and behaviors to break through the
Speaker 3: barriers and challenges their relationship is facing in real time. Look,
Speaker 3: I won't be bombarding you with homework, but you know,
Speaker 3: I think it's handy to have a couple of little
Speaker 3: experiments or things to be observing and trying in the week,
Speaker 3: and then we report back and chat about did that work,
Speaker 3: did that not work? What happened there? So leading us
Speaker 3: into a bit of that I think could be coming
Speaker 3: up with a system that you guys both feel happy
Speaker 3: about in terms of navigating these social situations together. So,
Speaker 3: whether that be Jess on your end, coming up with
Speaker 3: you know, commitments that you're going to make. I will
Speaker 3: make sure that I don't leave without telling you I
Speaker 3: will make sure that if it's a situation that I
Speaker 3: feel I could use some help with, rather than because
Speaker 3: you might just need to leave and that's okay. But
Speaker 3: if it's that, you know what, I need a break
Speaker 3: and I might be able to come back in this
Speaker 3: is how I'll ask you, so really having like sort
Speaker 3: of formulated like lines or plans of how I would
Speaker 3: ask you for that. And then Dave, I think what
Speaker 3: would be important is for you to go if you
Speaker 3: ask me to come and help you, you know, whether
Speaker 3: it's recenter, calm down, just you know, get yourself back together.
Speaker 4: But don't say the words calm down. Oh my god,
Speaker 4: if you say those like nobody nobody comes down, they
Speaker 4: come up, you know they yeah, tell them that.
Speaker 3: He can't say, okay, So he's saying you can tell me.
Speaker 5: If I said that to Jess, it's going to be
Speaker 5: a different problem. But for me it's fine.
Speaker 3: Jeff can say I feel like I need help calming down, Jess,
Speaker 3: could you maybe use the word for her own self
Speaker 3: or even just like I feel like I need a
Speaker 3: bit of reassurance. Can you help me do some self
Speaker 3: soothing in the bathroom or outside, or can we.
Speaker 4: You mean I don't have to run away this alternative, yeah.
Speaker 3: Because I think it is really sad that you're running
Speaker 3: away and for the times that you might not have to,
Speaker 3: and you actually have a partner there that can support
Speaker 3: you in being there. It sounds like he does want
Speaker 3: you there, but he just doesn't know what to do,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 6: I mean it's if I'm playing, I'm an hostage, sure,
Speaker 6: and I can't be there very much of course, so
Speaker 6: that's where you need maybe a fan as well or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean we could even work.
Speaker 4: It's not one of your exes.
Speaker 3: Not one of the exes, please. I think let's say,
Speaker 3: if Dave's on stage and you're feeling overwhelmed, you might decide, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to head outside and I'll text him so
Speaker 3: when he finishes his set that he'll see his phone
Speaker 3: and he can check if I'm still outside, he can
Speaker 3: come and will do that self soothing and reassuring thing.
Speaker 3: If it's been too much and I had to leave
Speaker 3: by then Okay, it is what it is, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. But there'll be other opportunities where he
Speaker 3: is available and able, and I guess, Dave, I think
Speaker 3: it will be important for you to make sure that
Speaker 3: it's really prioritized, even if I'm chatting with someone, even
Speaker 3: if whatever. If Jess needs me for fifteen minutes or
Speaker 3: ten minutes, I excuse myself. I go with her because
Speaker 3: this is how we rebuild the trust that you've got me.
Speaker 3: I feel supported absolutely.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the things. I know.
Speaker 6: You know, we had a big argument two days ago,
Speaker 6: but there's something that I.
Speaker 5: Realized as well.
Speaker 6: So I'm hoping even though it was maybe a was
Speaker 6: it was not a good moment, maybe I'm learning something
Speaker 6: out of it as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I do think arguments are often you know,
Speaker 3: unpleasant in them, but they can often be very constructive,
Speaker 3: and sometimes we kind of need to get to that
Speaker 3: level for the real stuff to actually come out so
Speaker 3: we can work with what's really happening here.
Speaker 4: I feel so too. I just I feel like I
Speaker 4: just need to know that if I do need space
Speaker 4: or I do need to go away, he can't take
Speaker 4: it personally, and he can't say, you know, you left
Speaker 4: because of this person and that was humiliating for me
Speaker 4: or something like that, because actually I didn't. I left
Speaker 4: because I wasn't coping. Yeah, and I need to need
Speaker 4: it to get out of there, and I need I
Speaker 4: really really want for him to understand that because it
Speaker 4: makes it harder for me to go next time if
Speaker 4: I'm feeling, yeah, uncomfortable, but I can't leave because he's
Speaker 4: gonna decide that it's all about something that it's actually
Speaker 4: not about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if we were to add a little part two,
Speaker 3: I'm adding onto the homework, but if part one is
Speaker 3: just you having a look at in what ways, like
Speaker 3: what will we do for that ten minute? You know,
Speaker 3: Like so I will come up and I'll say this
Speaker 3: if I need you, Dave, and then you come with me,
Speaker 3: and this is what would help me in that ten minutes?
Speaker 3: Can we do this? Can we do that? Blah blah? Okay,
Speaker 3: I think on Dave's end of things, I would like
Speaker 3: to see you have a real reflection about what are
Speaker 3: the things that I can do that can help just
Speaker 3: feel more welcome in my life? Is it posting some
Speaker 3: photos about some Facebook or whatever? Is it, you know,
Speaker 3: organizing to have her come on and say hello next
Speaker 3: time I'm chatting to my family on the phone. I
Speaker 3: don't know, but coming up with some things that may
Speaker 3: seem not that big of a deal to you, but
Speaker 3: obviously feel like missing for Jess.
Speaker 6: Of course, I'd like I mean, i'd like to sort
Speaker 6: of explain why I know. The Facebook thing is a
Speaker 6: bit of an obvious and I'd like to explain that
Speaker 6: a bit.
Speaker 4: It had his extras all over there, even once he
Speaker 4: was with when we were separated, they were all over
Speaker 4: Facebook and everything.
Speaker 6: But not okay, so well, anyway, it's music related.
Speaker 5: What am I?
Speaker 6: And I do post a lot of things on Facebook
Speaker 6: about music and not much about my kids or anything.
Speaker 6: Nothing at already about my family, mostly just about the music.
Speaker 6: But it's to I tried to put some point a
Speaker 6: photo of us too, honestly money it wasn't a big thing,
Speaker 6: but look, I still want to put even there.
Speaker 5: We had an argument a couple of days after.
Speaker 6: An hour to put it off, to put it down
Speaker 6: and actually bokes my heart whichever photo I took. We
Speaker 6: had a breakup and just ask me to remove all
Speaker 6: the photos and it was really difficult for me.
Speaker 5: So one of the things is before I put the photos.
Speaker 6: It's horrible to say, but before I put the photos
Speaker 6: on Facebook, I want to know that we're secure.
Speaker 3: And that's why it's kind of like a bit of
Speaker 3: an insurance policy though, which doesn't feel because we could
Speaker 3: circle this around, right, So, yeah, I want to feel
Speaker 3: that you're not going to break up with me before
Speaker 3: I put photos of us on social media. But by
Speaker 3: you not putting the photos of the two of you
Speaker 3: on social media destabilizes the security and the validity and
Speaker 3: publicness of the relationship, which sounds like it's important to just.
Speaker 4: Do it. Does it just reinforces yeah, to me that
Speaker 4: I'm not really welcome, that he's still a little but
Speaker 4: ashamed of me and wants to keep me sort of
Speaker 4: separate from that part of his life.
Speaker 2: So I.
Speaker 5: Sort of just saying that's the reason.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and it's fair enough that that's your reason.
Speaker 3: I guess it's just looking at does this reason to
Speaker 3: get in my way? If my goal is to have
Speaker 3: this relationship be a happy and healthy one. Does my
Speaker 3: reason for not putting the photo up getting my way
Speaker 3: of achieving my goal? And I think it does. That's
Speaker 3: sort of the reason why I'm bringing that up is
Speaker 3: not to put down your reasoning, but just is my
Speaker 3: reasoning actually a bit counterproductive for me if I want
Speaker 3: this relationship to be happy and healthy? Yeah?
Speaker 5: No, that's that's fair enough.
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't think it means like you've
Speaker 3: got a blast photos of Jess all over there, all
Speaker 3: over your page, but just and it could be there
Speaker 3: might be other things. And this is why I'm sort
Speaker 3: of setting this for homework, is more things. There may
Speaker 3: be lots of other little ways that you can make
Speaker 3: Jess also feel just more a part of it, like
Speaker 3: meeting different friends, different people, you know, being involved in
Speaker 3: certain things that you do. And of course that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean that she has to attend everything you attend, but
Speaker 3: just having the Do I invite her to stuff? Or
Speaker 3: do I just assume she doesn't want to come? Or
Speaker 3: do I assume she's busy? Do I assume she, you know,
Speaker 3: will get anxious and angry and we'll have to leave.
Speaker 3: So I don't bother inviting anymore, Like maybe there are
Speaker 3: things you could just look at and just check. Do
Speaker 3: I make sure that she feels welcome in this area.
Speaker 4: Of my life?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 5: I mean I try to do that.
Speaker 6: Like mostly what I do, you know, apart from work,
Speaker 6: is music. So I try to involve her in the
Speaker 6: music whenever it's possible.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, so but I can do more I
Speaker 3: mean I can, and maybe that will be the homeworkers
Speaker 3: for you to start listing.
Speaker 5: That okay listing, Yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3: Now in terms of I think probably just based on time,
Speaker 3: we'll probably leave and I think maybe pick up a
Speaker 3: bit more on the different perspectives about the cheating stuff,
Speaker 3: because I do think that that is important to get into.
Speaker 3: I think just the original feeling ashamed of me stuff
Speaker 3: I think was the when that sort of came up,
Speaker 3: I felt like that was actually we need to work
Speaker 3: there first. Then we can go to the different perspectives.
Speaker 3: And I guess we could have start looking at a
Speaker 3: couple agreements like what are our We might have certain
Speaker 3: slight different ways or perceptions of things, but we need
Speaker 3: to have a couple agreement of what isn't isn't okay
Speaker 3: behavior wise under all different circumstances, even if we have
Speaker 3: different perceptions. So I'm thinking that might be better for
Speaker 3: us to leave today, but to talk about next time
Speaker 3: if you feel like would be useful.
Speaker 4: I think that would be good because when we had
Speaker 4: this big discussion the other day to try and work
Speaker 4: through some of the things, Yeah, we talked a bit
Speaker 4: about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so maybe we park it and we you're meaning
Speaker 6: how to have an argument without it going you know, sideways, that.
Speaker 5: Communict done better.
Speaker 3: Yes, so we're talking about different ways to communicate about it,
Speaker 3: but also actually coming to like we could be workshopping
Speaker 3: agreements between you about what is cheating, what's acceptable, what's not.
Speaker 3: Even if we have your own perspective in life of
Speaker 3: what cheating is. In this relationship, what cheating is is this,
Speaker 3: So we're going to have a shared agreement about what
Speaker 3: cheating is between us. We can have individual ideas about
Speaker 3: what cheating is. We're two different people, we have different perspectives,
Speaker 3: but in this relationship, if we're together, we need to
Speaker 3: agree what is and isn't. Okay, Yeah, yeah, I agree
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, I mean yes, Okay.
Speaker 3: Well, I hope that this session went a bit better
Speaker 3: than the other couple of times that you've tried. We've
Speaker 3: made it to the end. We're still talking. Look at that,
Speaker 3: you're still talking.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 3: I think Justin David came here to to work through
Speaker 3: some of their communication issues and also to really untangle
Speaker 3: some more deeply rooted problems between the two of them
Speaker 3: around perception, trust, agreements about behavior, and even just feeling
Speaker 3: secure with each other in the relationship. I think trust
Speaker 3: issues are a really common problem in couples, and particularly
Speaker 3: different perceptions about what cheating might be, what is and
Speaker 3: isn't okay, what's acceptable, And I believe that Jess and
Speaker 3: David do have two quite different beliefs and perspectives about this,
Speaker 3: and that has to stabilized a lot of the trust
Speaker 3: between them. However, if we don't get to the things
Speaker 3: underneath that, it's very hard to work on the more
Speaker 3: touchy issues around cheating and sex and trust. So I
Speaker 3: often see couples getting so stuck on the sex and
Speaker 3: the you know, the high intensity bits of mistrust, but
Speaker 3: actually there will be something underneath that that has created
Speaker 3: a bit of tension or lack of stability, which then
Speaker 3: makes the more higher intensity things set off real big
Speaker 3: alarm bells for people. So in David and Jess's case,
Speaker 3: looking at the fact that Jess feels that David is
Speaker 3: ashamed of her is actually the beginning of her working
Speaker 3: through what she needs to to be able to trust
Speaker 3: him in those more higher alarm bell situations with other women.
Speaker 4: I'm feeling really quite positive about the session that we've
Speaker 4: just had Sarah. I think is amazing because she's picked
Speaker 4: up on things that are really big issues, and we
Speaker 4: might not have realized that there are big issues, and
Speaker 4: she's allowed us to sort of start to deconstruct them
Speaker 4: already in a way that's got me thinking more about
Speaker 4: his perspective and him sort of looking at my perspective
Speaker 4: with a bit more compassion rather than dismissing me. I'm
Speaker 4: just thinking about David, and I feel like right now,
Speaker 4: he's probably feeling good about the fact that we're still
Speaker 4: talking to each other and maybe we've got a bit
Speaker 4: more clarity on each other's point of view. But I
Speaker 4: know that he feels a bit worried about the homework,
Speaker 4: and I suspect he's not sure whether that's achievable or not,
Speaker 4: and he's probably looking forward because he's a little bit pessimistic.
Speaker 4: I mean I am too, but he's probably a little
Speaker 4: bit worried about what's going to happen if we're not
Speaker 4: able to do the homework, or if the homework doesn't
Speaker 4: sort of pan out the way that we're hoping it will.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, how I'm fitting about the session today. I
Speaker 6: think it was helpful, Actually, well it was. It was
Speaker 6: good because we didn't go too much in detail, so
Speaker 6: we looked at the important things like communication styles or
Speaker 6: but we didn't go too much in detail, so I
Speaker 6: think it avoided potential triggers. The other thing is what
Speaker 6: we held our hands together, so that I think it
Speaker 6: helped as well. So yeah, just did not did not
Speaker 6: feel the need to leave or anything like that.
Speaker 5: It helped.
Speaker 6: And yeah, no, I think it's good also because it's
Speaker 6: the first session we've managed to do with a bad outcome.
Speaker 6: It's not been good in the past. Basically, So where
Speaker 6: do I think we will be as a couple next week?
Speaker 6: I think we should be okay. I think we'll be okay.
Speaker 6: I mean I'm hoping more than okay, but I think
Speaker 6: it will help. But you know, this session today will help.
Speaker 3: My hopes for the next session is to see David
Speaker 3: really come in with some solid ideas. He may have
Speaker 3: even implemented one or two things. I don't know, we'll see,
Speaker 3: but some solid ideas around how he can make Jess
Speaker 3: feel like she is a part of his life, that
Speaker 3: he's proud of her, and that he wants the world
Speaker 3: to know it. I'm hoping that Jess is able to
Speaker 3: come up with a really well articulated plan about what
Speaker 3: she'll do if she starts feeling uncomfortable at social situations,
Speaker 3: how she'll communicate that to David, and what he can
Speaker 3: do to help support her to regulate again so that
Speaker 3: she doesn't have to feel like she has to isolate
Speaker 3: every time that she's just regulated. This Is Why We
Speaker 3: Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Neilson.
Speaker 3: The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is
Speaker 3: Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon. Additional
Speaker 3: production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting
Speaker 3: producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought up
Speaker 3: any hard feelings or if you feel like you need
Speaker 3: a bit of help, there are links in our show
Speaker 3: notes to resources available to you right now, as well
Speaker 3: as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds. If
Speaker 3: you'd like to apply to be on the next season
Speaker 3: of This is Why We Fight, there's a link to
Speaker 3: the application in our show notes too. The second part
Speaker 3: of Jesson David's session comes out in a few days,
Speaker 3: but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers
Speaker 3: have early access to the episode in full right now.
Speaker 3: Follow the link in the show notes to listen. Meet
Speaker 3: you there.
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