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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, No Filter listeners. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm

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Speaker 2: a clinical psychotherapist and the host of Mamma MIA's newest podcast,

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Speaker 2: This is Why We Fight, where eight different pairs share

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Speaker 2: their relationship challenges in authentic therapy sessions so that you

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Speaker 2: can benefit from what they learn and also learn more

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Speaker 2: about the therapy process. I think that No Filter fans

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Speaker 2: would be particularly interested in Jess and David, a couple

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Speaker 2: with very different definitions of cheating and who are very

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Speaker 2: different needs and communication styles, and they're grappling with how

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Speaker 2: to move forward in their relationship.

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Speaker 3: Have a listen. I hope you enjoy. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 3: the traditional owners of the land and waters. This podcast

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Speaker 3: was recorded.

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Speaker 4: On So for me, I feel that he is ashamed

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Speaker 4: of me, embarrassed of me. I feel like I'm good

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Speaker 4: enough for him, but not for his public image, and

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Speaker 4: that really hurts and that makes me feel really insecure.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't post anything of us on his social media.

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Speaker 4: He hasn't introduced me to his family. You know, I

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Speaker 4: don't know many of his friends. I feel at times

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Speaker 4: like I'm a side peace.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems,

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Speaker 3: real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical

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Speaker 3: psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,

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Speaker 3: and families. This series has been designed to allow you,

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Speaker 3: our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of

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Speaker 3: other people who are grappling with the challenges in their relationships,

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Speaker 3: because I firmly believe that we can learn so much

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Speaker 3: from each other. Today you're meeting Jess and David Perth couple.

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Speaker 3: Jess and David are in their forties. They're not married,

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Speaker 3: but they've been in a long term relationship for some

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Speaker 3: time and they both have children from previous relationships. Jess

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Speaker 3: is an office administrator and David, originally from New Caledonia,

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Speaker 3: is a music teacher. Jess and David are here today

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Speaker 3: to address a number of things that have been challenging

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Speaker 3: their relationship, from different definitions of cheating to trust and boundaries.

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Speaker 3: Here's session one with Jess and David. All right, Hello

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Speaker 3: Jess and David. It's lovely to see you guys.

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Speaker 5: Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I guess what I'd usually like to start with

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Speaker 3: or it can be helpful for me to know if

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Speaker 3: you've had experience in therapy as a couple before, and

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Speaker 3: if so, what went well, what didn't go well?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so we've tried therapy twice. The first time was

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Speaker 4: a bizarre experience. David's running a little bit late, and

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Speaker 4: I sat there and chatted to the therapist for a

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Speaker 4: couple of minutes, and then he came along and he

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Speaker 4: was probably there for like, it felt like about maybe

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Speaker 4: five or ten minutes, and the therapist said, oh, look,

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Speaker 4: she put her pen down and she said, I don't

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Speaker 4: think you two should be together. And we kind of

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Speaker 4: looked at each other and we didn't know what to do,

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Speaker 4: and we left and we gave each other a hug

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Speaker 4: and we were like processing it, and then she walked

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Speaker 4: past us, and it was just like really weird because

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Speaker 4: it was an evening appointment, so we must have been

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Speaker 4: her last one.

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Speaker 3: It's just all very awkward and what a horrible first

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Speaker 3: experience it was.

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Speaker 4: It was for a couple two. The second one did

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Speaker 4: not go any better. He initiated it because he thought

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Speaker 4: we should we give it another go.

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Speaker 3: So David initiated it.

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Speaker 4: He did, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he did all

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Speaker 4: the booking and everything like that, and I went there

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Speaker 4: and I ended up walking out because I was just

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Speaker 4: so triggered by something that he said.

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Speaker 6: It is what I said, And I guess it happens

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Speaker 6: also when I have an argument together, but it was

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Speaker 6: there in front.

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Speaker 5: Of someone else.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so this is something that happens at home when

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Speaker 3: you guys argue sometimes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So sometimes Jess will walk away.

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Speaker 6: Or or not walk away. It usually goes you know,

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Speaker 6: it doesn't end up well. We have like really bad

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Speaker 6: arguments in that situation, but here she she wanted to

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Speaker 6: go away. I guess it, you know, because in front

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Speaker 6: of someone else it's probably better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jess, can you tell me a little bit about

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Speaker 3: what happened for you in terms of the walking out. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So we had not long got back together. We had

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Speaker 4: separated for about six months, and during that time he

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Speaker 4: had been very close to another woman who is very

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Speaker 4: very different from me, and her outlook on life is different,

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Speaker 4: her morals are different, and basically that left me feeling

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Speaker 4: really insecure because I'm like, if he wants this in

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Speaker 4: a woman, how is he ever going to be you know,

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Speaker 4: how am I ever going to be enough for him?

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Speaker 4: Because that's not who I am that's not who I

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Speaker 4: want to be, and it left me feel really upset.

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Speaker 4: And when we went into this therapy session, the therapist

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Speaker 4: was trying to get background from us, and so I

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Speaker 4: raised this other woman as being a big issue for

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Speaker 4: me because it was leaving me feeling very insecure, because

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Speaker 4: I was also surprised that he would be interested in

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Speaker 4: someone so different from me in that way. So it

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Speaker 4: left me wondering also, not only am I not going

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Speaker 4: to be enough for him, but who actually is the

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Speaker 4: sky because we're so different. And the first thing he

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Speaker 4: did was start talking about her and his connection to

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Speaker 4: her and how lovely she is, and I'm just like,

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Speaker 4: I just thought, hang on, we're supposed to be here

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Speaker 4: for us.

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Speaker 3: And in that moment rather than going into the actual situation,

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Speaker 3: because I want us to be able to set up

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Speaker 3: what we can do today, if you know, because sometimes

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Speaker 3: therapy is about hearing things that are uncomfortable, painful, difficult,

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Speaker 3: might make you angry. Yeah, like, what could we do today?

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Speaker 3: So there was something there where you've been triggered really upset?

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Speaker 3: Is there something that we could do if a similar

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Speaker 3: thing occurred? Is there something that you could say to us?

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Speaker 3: Is there something that you could do that you think

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Speaker 3: could help kind of bring things back down, or I

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Speaker 3: guess we're trying to avoid the conversation being count are

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Speaker 3: to me, to both of you, yeah, both of you.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 6: Actually it's a bit of an interesting one because my

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Speaker 6: point was not to talk nicely about that that woman.

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Speaker 6: My point was to explain why, Like I said, I

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Speaker 6: was saying, why, you know, was I attracted to her

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Speaker 6: for a while not very long really, but uh, and

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Speaker 6: I just try to explain. I think it just just

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Speaker 6: heard something different to what I was saying because she

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Speaker 6: was concentrating on her you know, the issue at hand.

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Speaker 6: I was just trying to explain what happened and to

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Speaker 6: I mean to be honest about like they say that,

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Speaker 6: you know, I mean it's you that I want, and

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Speaker 6: you know, I don't think you have to worry.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So if we bring it back to so there's

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Speaker 3: that reassurance there, which I think is lovely. David, And

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Speaker 3: I think you know, I'm hoping for you, Jess that

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Speaker 3: coming into today there is a sense of or at

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Speaker 3: least a hope to be able to work through some

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Speaker 3: of the difficult conversations without it having to abruptly end.

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Speaker 3: I think breaks are okay, Pauses are okay. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you need to step out or if Dave, you

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Speaker 3: know this goes theme for you. If anybody needs to

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Speaker 3: call time for just a little break and just recenter,

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Speaker 3: come back in, that's completely fine. I guess it's sort

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Speaker 3: of looking at the commitment between the two of you

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Speaker 3: is I don't have to say things that you like

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Speaker 3: or say things that make you happy, but I do

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Speaker 3: have to try and give you the space if you

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Speaker 3: need to calm down so that we can continue the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Does that feel okay for both of you?

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Speaker 4: It absolutely does. And I think for me, I'm you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm in my forty and i've you know, we've obviously

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Speaker 4: both had relationships prior to this. In my relationships, I

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Speaker 4: was cheated on multiple times. When I picked up on it,

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Speaker 4: I was what we now call gas lid into believing that,

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Speaker 4: you know, I was imagining things I wasn't. And so

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Speaker 4: I know in myself that I'm on high alert and

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Speaker 4: that I'm easily triggered, and I know that I need

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Speaker 4: a lot more reassurance than perhaps most guys would expect

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Speaker 4: to have to give because of that, But I just

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Speaker 4: I feel like I really need him to understand that

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Speaker 4: if he is able to give me that reassurance when

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Speaker 4: I'm triggered, if he's able to continue to make me

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Speaker 4: feel safe, to remind me that he's using me, then

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Speaker 4: that will build up enough in my bank that I

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Speaker 4: can not worry so much about these other things or

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Speaker 4: not look at something else and perhaps jump to what

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Speaker 4: might not be the case.

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Speaker 3: And I'm just assuming, just is this one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that you wanted to start this process again, because

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Speaker 3: I think it was you who wanted to come into

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Speaker 3: this couples therapy process. Is this one of the things

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Speaker 3: you wanted to address?

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Speaker 4: It absolutely is, because we've been together on and off

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Speaker 4: for such a long time, and it's the same issues

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Speaker 4: again and again and again, and it's the same issues

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Speaker 4: for me and for him. I believe it's the same

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Speaker 4: issues as well. He'll talk soon.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, i'd like to before I forget, because I always going

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Speaker 6: to answer something to but.

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Speaker 5: You finished off.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just I know, I know nobody's perfect, and

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Speaker 4: I know I fit into that category of course too,

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Speaker 4: But I just feel that when you love someone, you

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Speaker 4: give them what they need, especially if they know that

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Speaker 4: they need it. And then if I had that extra reassurance,

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Speaker 4: extra security, extra love, I would feel more regulated and

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Speaker 4: be able to let go of these worries more easily.

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Speaker 4: But that takes time. And every time I get upset

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Speaker 4: by something or triggered, instead of taking that opportunity to

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Speaker 4: offer me that reassurance and therefore make me feel safe

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Speaker 4: and actually make me feel closer to him, I feel

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Speaker 4: like he feels that I don't trust him. I'm attacking him.

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Speaker 4: I'm dragging up the past and it ends up making

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Speaker 4: him upset and he escalates as well, and it's not

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Speaker 4: healthy for either of us. And we really need to

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Speaker 4: be able to move past that.

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Speaker 5: Ye can I?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Because I mean.

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Speaker 6: Jess is actually a very good communicator. She knows I

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Speaker 6: said that several times. Except so when we have an

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Speaker 6: argument or that goes out of the windows, Okay, tell

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Speaker 6: me what happens, so I I personally, okay, it's one

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Speaker 6: You know a thing I've learned from being very.

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Speaker 5: Small boy, you know, which is, even if things are

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Speaker 5: very very hard, and.

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Speaker 6: Even if you feel attacked, even if somebody is really

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Speaker 6: horrible to you, tell the truth, be fair, what you

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Speaker 6: your world's count like it's your worlds are so important. Now,

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Speaker 6: I must admit it's not always the case when you know,

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Speaker 6: but I do try to be fair. I try to

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Speaker 6: I'm constructive. I'm not destructive. I'm not there to put

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Speaker 6: down anyone. So there's moments where I say, I think

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Speaker 6: the words you're using, Jess are not always correct or helpful,

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Speaker 6: and and so when I feel attacked, right, it's it's

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Speaker 6: because I feel that in those moments where we start

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Speaker 6: an argument, which could be something it would be good

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Speaker 6: to when we start the argument to actually say, we

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Speaker 6: could be very careful with our worlds where we're going,

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Speaker 6: how we use them, and the aim should never be

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Speaker 6: to to put down anyone.

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Speaker 3: So are you telling me that you feel put down

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Speaker 3: by Jess in the arguments? Could you give me an example?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I oh, it's a bit okay, So I'm a

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Speaker 5: bit well, okay, when fish.

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Speaker 3: You're a bit worried, and what are you worried about?

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Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 6: Now, what's gonna happen? I'm just gonna okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 6: say it again. So Jess tells me she says that

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Speaker 6: cheated on her okay, which is because she feels she

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Speaker 6: has a different definition for me, it's it's actually.

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Speaker 5: Highly I feel really.

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Speaker 6: Very hurt by that because it's not true and I

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Speaker 6: care about her, and I mean, you know what I did,

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Speaker 6: I didn't really you know. I mean, I'm not sleeping

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Speaker 6: with anyone else when we're together. I did it once

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Speaker 6: when we were separated, because we had several times we

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Speaker 6: were separated.

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Speaker 5: But I actually really care to be fair, to be.

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Speaker 6: Also if there's an issue, I want to be direct

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Speaker 6: and because we have so, because I I feel like

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Speaker 6: it's a bit unfair on.

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Speaker 3: Me the word so it's the word cheese.

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Speaker 6: That world there's that's one one of those things, okay,

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Speaker 6: but it's not the only one. There's a few things

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Speaker 6: like that that.

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Speaker 5: I feel that, well, one what are we? You know

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Speaker 5: what I mean?

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Speaker 6: And I feel when it's like that, when I feel

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Speaker 6: put down, and I'm like, you know, do I want

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Speaker 6: to go on?

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Speaker 5: Okay? I need to be respected.

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Speaker 6: And then if I feel respected, even in moments where

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Speaker 6: it's really difficult, we have an argument, we need to

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Speaker 6: have respect, just the moment.

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Speaker 5: Where we need to have respect and we need to

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Speaker 5: be careful.

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Speaker 6: And so then if I feel that, of course, then

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Speaker 6: I want to say, if I feel like I'm attacked.

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Speaker 5: It's not just one way.

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Speaker 6: Okay, sometimes it's like it just goes almost I feel insulted.

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Speaker 6: If I feel insulted, I'm not gonna say, oh, I

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Speaker 6: love you. I wanna in that moment, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 6: feel like that. I want to stay with you, like

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Speaker 6: if I so, what do we do?

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Speaker 4: Because that's my question, Like, because I feel that I'm

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Speaker 4: I'm actually telling him, hey, you know, I'm being triggered

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Speaker 4: by this because it reminds me of this thing that

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Speaker 4: you did, and he feels attacked by that. And what

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Speaker 4: I'm actually really saying is I'm feeling insecure. I need

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Speaker 4: reassurance right now. I need you to just hold me,

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Speaker 4: tell me you love me, remind me that you're here,

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Speaker 4: you know, give.

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Speaker 5: Me a hup.

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Speaker 4: So I forget all the At the moment, all the

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Speaker 4: other noise disappears and it's just the two of us.

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Speaker 4: But he doesn't hear that. He he is, you know

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Speaker 4: you did this, and I'm still angry at you. What

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Speaker 4: do you And that's not what I'm saying, And I

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Speaker 4: don't know what to do because that then his response

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Speaker 4: his reaction to that when he feels attacked actually makes

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Speaker 4: it worse. So I feel even worse than I do

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Speaker 4: when I just had that feeling on my own. So

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Speaker 4: first I'm feeling triggered, but I still try to talk

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Speaker 4: to him about it. It doesn't work. It makes a

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Speaker 4: situation worse because he feels attacked, you know, in his mind,

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, why is she attacking me? Why

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Speaker 4: is she bringing up the past? You know, I need

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Speaker 4: to defend myself. So I think there's two things. I

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Speaker 4: think there's two things happening.

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Speaker 3: One is, I think we might need to get some

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Speaker 3: clarity about the past because if it sounds like there's

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Speaker 3: not been some resolve around the past things that have happened,

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Speaker 3: because if there were resolve around the past things that

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Speaker 3: have happened, they might not come up as often or

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Speaker 3: be as easily triggered. And then the part two of

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Speaker 3: this is that, Okay, even if something does come up

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Speaker 3: and we get triggered, I really want us to break down, actually,

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Speaker 3: what are the things that just that you do say

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Speaker 3: because you've got the underlying message, but something about the

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Speaker 3: words that you're saying is being heard by Dave in

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Speaker 3: a different way. And then we're going to work with

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Speaker 3: Dave around Okay, how can I start to look at

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Speaker 3: the message underneath and not immediately go to what might

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Speaker 3: be the surface level content.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's exactly what we need, because it's

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Speaker 4: it's really hard. We were actually talking about the SYS

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Speaker 4: today and trying to we figure it out, but we

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Speaker 4: don't know what the answer is.

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Speaker 3: An argument, okay, you know when I say that's good,

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Speaker 3: I say that's good because we can use that. I

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Speaker 3: actually feel like examples of real life recent arguments can

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Speaker 3: actually go quite well for us to use as the

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Speaker 3: kind of guinea pig for how do we do things differently.

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Speaker 6: I'd like to say that the reason why we got

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Speaker 6: out of that argument is because Jess is actually very

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Speaker 6: good communicator.

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Speaker 5: So she managed to put down things.

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Speaker 6: In a way that I realized what she was fitting

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Speaker 6: and what I don't even though if it's really old

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Speaker 6: stuff that came again on her face a look like

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Speaker 6: that story and we told you. She managed to so

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Speaker 6: make me go there with her and I could sort

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Speaker 6: of empathize, and then I sort of okay, I got it,

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Speaker 6: you know a little bit.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's her point of view. It's not

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Speaker 5: all the tools or whatever.

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Speaker 6: I can't see Oh, it's not even it's my it's

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Speaker 6: not like it's not the way.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to agree.

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Speaker 6: It's not like I didn't do anything wrong exactly. It's

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Speaker 6: not the problem. It's how she felt because of what

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Speaker 6: happened or what I did wrong or not.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's a difference between validating and agreeing.

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Speaker 3: I can validate how you feel without saying, yes, you're right,

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Speaker 3: I am a cheater and I did this and I

336
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Speaker 3: did that. You can validate. I can see that you're

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Speaker 3: feeling really insecure and that you need some closeness with me,

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Speaker 3: or you need me to let you know that I

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Speaker 3: love you right now, you know. So you can say

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Speaker 3: things like that without agreeing with the actual content of

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Speaker 3: what they're thinking.

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Speaker 4: But what I need, that's what I need. That's what

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Speaker 4: I need.

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Speaker 3: And well, you're saying it went well yesterday in terms.

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Speaker 5: Of not well it went well at neand but well, okay.

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Speaker 3: You guys salvaged it. So how did it go well?

347
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Speaker 3: Like what? Because this is when the things that do work,

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Speaker 3: it's important to note those. So Jess managed to communicate

349
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Speaker 3: it in a way that you could hear it. What

350
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Speaker 3: was it?

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Speaker 6: I could go with her in the way she feels.

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Speaker 6: So I managed to understand that, and I think, yeah,

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Speaker 6: that's just but it it doesn't solve some of the

354
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 6: but still there's a lot of communication that happened. So

355
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Speaker 6: and I have a previty about memory. So some things

356
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Speaker 6: I remember completely different from her. I trust her more

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Speaker 6: than me. My memory is pretty shocking.

358
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Speaker 4: So, and when you're experiencing something, his view through a

359
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,239
Speaker 4: different lenes anyway. So I'm viewing things through a different

360
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 4: leanes from him anyway. So even if we remember the

361
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 4: same things, clearly, we're going to remember them a different way.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, but there's been there's been issues because what's what's

363
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Speaker 6: been happening.

364
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Speaker 5: I mean, if you don't man, I can talk.

365
00:21:14,919 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 6: What's been happening is Jesse is worried about my female

367
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Speaker 6: friends that I've got.

368
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Speaker 5: So I do, I do some.

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Speaker 6: Music, and I have a lot of friends made of

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Speaker 6: female and so she's worried at something there people I'm

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00:21:36,919 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 6: you know, attracted to or I want to be with

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Speaker 6: or something. So it ends up being very difficult for

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Speaker 6: her to go to my music sessions or when I

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Speaker 6: play live or something. And I would really like her

375
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Speaker 6: to come.

376
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Speaker 5: So I missed that.

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Speaker 6: I miss that she's not there with me when I

378
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Speaker 6: do these things because it's something I'm proud of and

379
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 6: I want her to be part of it. So I

380
00:22:04,639 --> 00:22:08,239
Speaker 6: playing at no. You know, there's not really any words

381
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 6: to have there, and actually it would be really I

382
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,239
Speaker 6: think she againes she wants to go. She wants to go,

383
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 6: she wants to find a way to go there. I

384
00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:17,959
Speaker 6: know you're a bit worried about the crowds as well.

385
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 4: I don't have a problem with his female friends. I

386
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,759
Speaker 4: saw he had a lot of female friends when I

387
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 4: met him, and I saw that as a green flag,

388
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 4: and I was excited because I thought, I'm going to

389
00:22:29,399 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 4: get a new group of girlfriends. You know, if they

390
00:22:32,919 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 4: love him, they're going to love me because I love

391
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,239
Speaker 4: him too. We've got that in common. But then, like

392
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 4: you said earlier, I feel that he's cheated on me

393
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 4: a couple of times. They're things that he's said and done.

394
00:22:47,399 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 4: We talked about that a little bit yesterday, but we've

395
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 4: got different ideas about that. And I know I know

396
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 4: people have you know, I've got friends who are Polly,

397
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 4: I've got friends who, you know, diferal kinds of things.

398
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: But I think if both partners are on the same page,

399
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 4: if that's okay. But for me, I don't have a

400
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 4: thing about his female friends. I have a thing about

401
00:23:15,639 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 4: like when we've had an argument and he says I

402
00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 4: should be with her instead of with you, and then

403
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 4: he goes to her and he talks about our relationship issues, like,

404
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 4: I don't think that's appropriate to talk to someone that

405
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,999
Speaker 4: you said that you should be with instead of me.

406
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 4: I don't want to go into a lot of details.

407
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 4: It's an argument now.

408
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: Well, but he takes that as me saying, well, he

409
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: takes that as me saying, you can't talk to his

410
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: female friends, and not what I'm saying, and what I'm

411
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: saying not the ones that you told me that you

412
00:23:52,919 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: would write.

413
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: And David, please do not worry. You will you will

414
00:23:56,399 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 3: get to it, like don't There is time for both

415
00:23:59,679 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 3: of you, and I think it's important to let Jess say.

416
00:24:02,679 --> 00:24:04,759
Speaker 3: You know you've said that she has a problem with

417
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 3: your friends, your female friends. Jess is actually trying to

418
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 3: tell you something that no, I don't. I don't have

419
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 3: a problem with your female friends, but I do there

420
00:24:13,399 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 3: have been some things that you've said in the past,

421
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: or you know that have made me feel uncomfortable with

422
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 3: certain female friends. And then now to you, David.

423
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 6: Tell us, Yeah, well, this particular incident is one that

424
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 6: sort of didn't have the with the argument we had

425
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 6: there before yesterday. So I'm going to say that it's

426
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 6: only a part of the toast the fact what we

427
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 6: had after a big argument that day that I'm talking

428
00:24:41,879 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 6: about a long time ago.

429
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 5: So was it what your or something? And that was

430
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 5: on the.

431
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 6: Phone, and I was very very stressed with it because

432
00:24:50,159 --> 00:24:53,519
Speaker 6: again it's one of those times where I felt good, okay,

433
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 6: and then after annoying feeling very annoyed and bothered and

434
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 6: feeling like, oh god, I can't deal with that. Then

435
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 6: she asks me, so do you want to be do

436
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,279
Speaker 6: you prefer to be with that person?

437
00:25:04,639 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: I don't.

438
00:25:05,919 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 5: Well, I'm like at the moment, I'm sorry, but yeah.

439
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 4: You know I remember that differently. I don't. I'm sure

440
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 4: I didn't say that at all. He thinks I did.

441
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 5: Well, it was.

442
00:25:15,399 --> 00:25:16,999
Speaker 6: I've got about the memory, but I know it was

443
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 6: something that you really did triggered it and it wasn't nice.

444
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 3: However that happened in some way, shape or form, it

445
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: came out and not just you randomly bringing that up, saying, oh,

446
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: you know, I think I should be with her, but yeah,

447
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: that came out.

448
00:25:34,159 --> 00:25:38,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like, and when you feel like attacked for you know,

449
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 6: hours or whatever, at the end you're like, god, I'll

450
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 6: have enough.

451
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 5: You know, it's normal.

452
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: And I think this is it trying not to hear

453
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 3: this as a criticism, David, because I think everybody can

454
00:25:50,399 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: relate to saying things that we don't mean, or saying

455
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 3: things without thinking when we're under stressed, when we're feeling criticized, when.

456
00:25:59,399 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 5: We're because it wasn't right, I'm not saying it as well.

457
00:26:01,879 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: I said that, yeah, And I think that's the bit

458
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: is I can tell you don't think that that was

459
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: a good thing to say, but it's hard to see

460
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: that message when you are trying to justify why you

461
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 3: said it, because it sort of makes it seem like, then, well,

462
00:26:15,399 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: because Jess was doing this, this this to me, that's

463
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 3: why that came out, which is logistically and factually potentially correct,

464
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: But in that it gets lost that actually, you know what,

465
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: I can understand how me saying that would be really

466
00:26:30,639 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: hurtful and it doesn't mean and it makes sense as

467
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: to why you might feel uncomfortable with me with this

468
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: friend after I said something like that. Does that feel true?

469
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do, I do, And interestingly, I mean, we've

470
00:26:45,679 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 6: been thinking to catch up with her together.

471
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 5: I'm still worried that. I don't know how it's gonna

472
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 5: if it could work, but it'd be good.

473
00:26:55,399 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: So, Jess, you're seeming a little bit about about Dave

474
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: being worried. Do you think there's anything to worry about Dave.

475
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 4: I think Dave's worried about the wrong thing. I think

476
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 4: he should be worried about supporting me and making me

477
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 4: feel safe going into a situation with a women, women

478
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: that I consider that he you know, kind of like

479
00:27:15,399 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 4: emotionally cheated on me with. But he's worried that I'm

480
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 4: going to say something. I'm not going to say something

481
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 4: to her. I run from confrontation. I don't like it

482
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: at all. I'm very I'm not very.

483
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: You're not going to cause a problem with strong.

484
00:27:29,919 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: And that sense or anything. Well, I'm more likely to

485
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 4: run away I am. And he knows that deep down.

486
00:27:36,399 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 4: I'm sure he does. But and look, this person is

487
00:27:39,159 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 4: probably a lovely person. I've you know, not heard anything

488
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 4: nasty about them. But I don't have anything personally against

489
00:27:45,879 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: this person at all, you know, And and I don't

490
00:27:49,639 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 4: mind if he I mean, I don't like him talking

491
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 4: about our relationship to his friends, but I know that

492
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 4: that's what people do, and I know that I have

493
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 4: done it, so it's fair that he does it too.

494
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 4: And it's good that he's got a couple of friends

495
00:28:03,399 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 4: he can trust enough to talk to about our relationship.

496
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 4: And you know what, if that females, that is potentially

497
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 4: even better because I'm probably a bit more empathetic and

498
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 4: can give him the female viewpoint. But what I do

499
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 4: have a problem with is him talking to someone that

500
00:28:18,879 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 4: he said he should be with instead of me, And

501
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 4: that is the issue I take with it. So I

502
00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 4: don't I don't know, like I know now he didn't

503
00:28:30,639 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 4: think that. I know that was a heat of the

504
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: moment thing, but still there's a little part of me that,

505
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 4: you know, doubts, like, you know, when I meet her,

506
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,519
Speaker 4: am I going to be comparing myself to her? You know?

507
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: She is she kinder than me? Is she smarter than me?

508
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,999
Speaker 4: Does she you know, have a better job than me?

509
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 4: Does she? Is she prettier than me? Is she you know,

510
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 4: thinner than me? All that kind of thing. You know.

511
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: I'm just a little bit worried if that's what my

512
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 4: mind is going to do. And I don't want to

513
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: be feeling like that if I do meet her. And

514
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 4: she's a good friend of his, so I feel like

515
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 4: I should if I do meet her, I want it

516
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 4: to be where I'm in a better place, So I

517
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: don't I'm not at risk of you know, defaulting too

518
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,959
Speaker 4: wanting to look for reasons why she's better than me.

519
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, can I can answer that.

520
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 6: No, I'm saying the first thing is she's not better

521
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 6: than you, okay, and I would not have chosen you

522
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 6: if it was the case. She's you and.

523
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: And but efybody's different. And I do love people in general.

524
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 5: I like people.

525
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,999
Speaker 6: I enjoy, you know, having discussions with different types of

526
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 6: people and learning from them. And so for me, appreciating

527
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 6: people is like I like that, you know, it's I

528
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 6: So I guess I said to her. Yeah, I have

529
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 6: a lot of friends and I love them all in

530
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,279
Speaker 6: a way. Right, doesn't mean I'm going to go and

531
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 6: sleep with them, But I love having discussions with a

532
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 6: lot of different people, and yeah, it's it's important for me.

533
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,999
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't think it sounds like just as

534
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: saying there's anything wrong with that part.

535
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 4: No, I just need for him to realize that he's

536
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 4: got a girlfriend who's been lied to and cheat it

537
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: on in the past. He's got a girlfriend who you know,

538
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 4: and our relationship, we both made a few choices that

539
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 4: have not been the best, and that even though he's apologized,

540
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: although it took a long time to apologize, which did

541
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 4: affect how well I accepted that even though he's apologized,

542
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 4: he understands why I felt this way, and I've forgiven him.

543
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: It doesn't make the pain just disappear. It doesn't stop

544
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: the triggers from reappearing. You can do everything right and

545
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: the pain is still there. And that's what I really

546
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 4: want him to understand is that I accept that he

547
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 4: seize my flaws, he accepts them, that he has acknowledged

548
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,999
Speaker 4: his own, he's acknowledged the hurt that he's caused for

549
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 4: our relationship. But I also really need him to understand

550
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 4: that that doesn't mean the hurt disappears, and that I

551
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: still need I'm still fragile, I'm still vulnerable, and I

552
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 4: still need support and reassurance. And I just don't get.

553
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,239
Speaker 6: That, and I want to give it to her, and

554
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 6: it's I don't give her enough, and I understand that,

555
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 6: but you also understand why why. Now you probably see

556
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 6: why I can't always do that, but I agree that,

557
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 6: like I need to do something on that part.

558
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 3: After this short break, I'm going to assist David and

559
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: Jess in coming up with some strategies and frameworks they

560
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: need before they can even begin to dive into issues

561
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: around cheating and trust stay with us, I think will

562
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: be useful for us to put some strategies in place.

563
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: Let's go to the other part of this, which was

564
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: the maybe some things that aren't resolved, or I think

565
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: the big one maybe to start with is the different

566
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: perceptions about cheating, because I think if we continue to

567
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 3: have two different ideas about what happened, then of course, yes,

568
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: I can see there's been attempts for repair, but it's

569
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 3: kind of like a sort of shonky repair work has happened,

570
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: and so things do slip through the cracks, and then

571
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: these arguments happen. So we don't have to get to

572
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: a place of both agreeing that this happened one way,

573
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 3: but we do need to get to some better sort

574
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,519
Speaker 3: of understanding around it because I think at the moment

575
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,999
Speaker 3: this like, well you cheated, Well no I didn't. I

576
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: think that's kind of destabilizing any further communication between you

577
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,759
Speaker 3: about these type of topics. Yeah, so I don't know

578
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: whether they you know, we can actually talk about the

579
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,999
Speaker 3: instant so instances that this is stemming from.

580
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 5: Well, probably.

581
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 6: Again, this is an area where I'm I worry at

582
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 6: my Yeah, yeah, I just.

583
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 5: Might want to go.

584
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 3: That's okay, Jess can tells it. Jess feels like she

585
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 3: might need to go. Well, let's trust Jess to let

586
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: us know and say, guys, I'm starting to feel like

587
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: throttling him, so I need to step round. Yeah.

588
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, so I'm trying to remember the whole story.

589
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,999
Speaker 6: But to start with, I want to go back to

590
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 6: when and so we met her like more than four

591
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 6: years ago now, maybe almost almost five years ago. And

592
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 6: to start with, we were just friends with very good friends.

593
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 6: And so eventually I just realized that when I was

594
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 6: in Jesse's arms, I just.

595
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 5: Felt like it was having and I just had this

596
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 5: stay there.

597
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: So do you recall, Yes, we can plain that text

598
00:34:12,759 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 4: to me or something, so.

599
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 5: That that's what I thought.

600
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 6: Okay, Look, I have to I have to ask her,

601
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 6: So I said, can we be together?

602
00:34:19,799 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 5: I want to be with you. So yeah, that's how

603
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 5: we started.

604
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 6: And I guess from being friends when we started to

605
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 6: be together, you know, as lovers, I think Jess ended

606
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 6: up having a lot more worries automatically because for we

607
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 6: ever passed or something. So there was a lot of

608
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 6: things that came out that I noticed in terms of confidence.

609
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 4: A lot of that was because he didn't bring me

610
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 4: into his phone. I used to be really really fat,

611
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 4: and I think he was ashamed of that and he

612
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 4: wouldn't like, he didn't introduce me to his friends, he

613
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 4: didn't take me out to like, he didn't include me

614
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 4: in his social life. I mean, I feel that it

615
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: was because of the way that I looked, and that

616
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 4: started to create a lot of insecurity because he was

617
00:35:11,759 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 4: really sweet to me when it was just us or

618
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: us and the kids, but when it was.

619
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,999
Speaker 5: It's a difficult. But I I socially it was well.

620
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 6: I had some comments from people, so I felt also

621
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 6: it was probably you know, unfair also on Jess.

622
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: But what do you mean by comment?

623
00:35:37,279 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was people.

624
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 6: I had, you know, some some of the people I

625
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 6: know commenting, oh you know, because she was quite big,

626
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 6: so they commented I felt that was not right.

627
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 3: How did you manage that?

628
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: I felt he should.

629
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to ask how did you manage

630
00:35:55,279 --> 00:35:56,519
Speaker 3: those comments from your friends?

631
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I felt I was upset with it. I

632
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 6: did say something, you know, I said, it's not you know,

633
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 6: what are you saying? But that was after so when

634
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 6: when we were together, nothing happened there.

635
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 5: But later on I heard something from him, So.

636
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was So did that make you feel uncomfortable

637
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: to bring Jess around your friends? Jess is internalizing that

638
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: as because of her weight, but are you saying that

639
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: it was.

640
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's it's obviously I feel like, oh,

641
00:36:29,279 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 6: you know, I don't want to put her in that

642
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 6: situation again.

643
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 4: So yeah, it didn't come across that way at all.

644
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 4: I came across as I'm ashamed of you. I care

645
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 4: about you, but you know.

646
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 6: I mean it shall Yeah, it's to be honest, it

647
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 6: was a bit of an issue for me as well

648
00:36:47,799 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: that she was quite big. And she's done, you know,

649
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 6: she's done a lot of work on that, but yeah,

650
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,999
Speaker 6: it was a bit of an issue for me as well.

651
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: And were you open about that with Jess?

652
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 6: Yes, but it was actually quite hurtful for her, so

653
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 6: I tried to when I stopped that. Eventually I actually

654
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 6: saw you know, I mean, I I don't want to

655
00:37:13,279 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 6: hurt her, you know, I I I sort of saw

656
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 6: it differently, and I guess to be optimistic is a

657
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:21,479
Speaker 6: good thing.

658
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: You know.

659
00:37:21,759 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 6: I'm not optimistic. I'm quite pessimistic by nature, so that

660
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 6: doesn't have but I saw it as well. You know,

661
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 6: you have you have more to cattle, and I do

662
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 6: like that. Actually, I really like that. So you know

663
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 6: when I say, when I'm in her arms arms and

664
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 6: there's more space there, you know, it's very warm, you know,

665
00:37:41,799 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 6: it's I don't know, it's it's better on that fault.

666
00:37:46,759 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: So in terms of we've got something here. Okay, so

667
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 3: if we look at the beginning of the relationship.

668
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, so yeah, I went sideways. Yeah, so yes,

669
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 6: that's the beginning of the relationship. But then well, sorry,

670
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 6: actually I.

671
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 3: Don't want to stay with it here, Sorry, I do.

672
00:38:04,799 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: I want to stay with this issue because I think, yeah,

673
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: I think this sort of led into then more insecurity stuff.

674
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: So let's stick with this for a moment, because I

675
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: think what so Jess was saying there is it didn't

676
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: feel like you were wanting to protect me or yourself

677
00:38:21,279 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 3: from other people's comments. It felt like you were judging

678
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 3: me as well or ashamed of me. Yeah. So if

679
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 3: this is like the original or initial hurt, and it.

680
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 4: Really hurt because we were really good friends before we

681
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 4: started dating, like we loved each other before we were

682
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 4: in love with each other, like where you just felt

683
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 4: this connection, a really strong connection, and you know, but

684
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 4: I just didn't realize until we were together that that

685
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 4: was always just at my house or his house, or

686
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 4: when we're going out for the day or doing things together.

687
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 4: I didn't realize. It took me until we were in

688
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 4: a relationship to realize that I wasn't around his friends.

689
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 6: There's two things to that though, Because I wasn't, you know,

690
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 6: I mean I was, I wouldn't say I was.

691
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:17,999
Speaker 5: I wasn't a shame of you.

692
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,959
Speaker 6: I It's it's true that when I heard that guy

693
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 6: said that I was, I felt a bit.

694
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 5: And it's not just that I want to protect you.

695
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 6: It's true also I felt, oh god, you know this

696
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 6: is that I felt it's going to be difficult to

697
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 6: go out or do anything, so that that that's only issue.

698
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 5: But it's for me.

699
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 6: I invited just to my gigs, one gig in particular,

700
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 6: and she went there and you know when she saw, well,

701
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 6: I was playing. When I stopped playing during the break,

702
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 6: I came towards her, and she didn't want to give

703
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 6: me a hug or anything like that.

704
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 3: This is the thing she was invited to.

705
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 6: H or second accompaniment of anywhere, one of the first ones.

706
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 6: And I know that she was worried about seeing an

707
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 6: X over there, an ex of.

708
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 5: Mine. Yeah.

709
00:40:15,279 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 6: So but yeah, and she's also told me that she

710
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 6: didn't like crowds very much. So when we've been doing

711
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 6: something that was a bit so short, it's always been

712
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 6: a bit of a there's been an issue, there's been

713
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 6: like something happened. So it's sort of I feel worried

714
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 6: about going out with Jess. Yeah, and just so it's yeah,

715
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 6: it's not just it's not just that one thing. It's

716
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 6: several things.

717
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 3: Okay, So okay, So David is saying that there's other

718
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 3: things around going to more social things that were potential barriers.

719
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: So I mean, Jesse, if you want to speak to

720
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 3: that a little bit, Even in terms of the gig

721
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: that Dave was talking.

722
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 4: About, I don't remember that specific night, but it sounds

723
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 4: like something that won't happen. So for me, I feel

724
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 4: that he is ashamed of me, embarrassed of me. I

725
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 4: feel like I'm good enough for him, but not for

726
00:41:19,279 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 4: his public image, and that really hurts, and that makes

727
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 4: me feel really insecure. He doesn't post anything of us

728
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 4: on his social media. He hasn't introduced me to his family.

729
00:41:32,759 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know many of his friends. I

730
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 4: feel at times like I'm a side peace. But when

731
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: it's just the two of us, it's fabulous together. We

732
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 4: have a great time. We gewl, we laugh, we you know,

733
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 4: we both, you know, have the same kind of passion

734
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 4: for spontaneity, and we're easily happy just to have a

735
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: lazy day at home. And it all just seems to

736
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: fit in really well. So when you can buying that,

737
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: I think the feeling, the overall feeling, is that I'm

738
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 4: not really welcome, like he kind of wants me, but

739
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 4: he kind of doesn't. In some ways, I don't feel

740
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 4: fully welcome. If I felt welcome, if I felt safe,

741
00:42:18,799 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 4: if I felt secure in the relationship, then none of

742
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 4: that would be as much of an issue for me

743
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 4: at all. And I know I would be able to

744
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 4: relax and not be so nervous.

745
00:42:30,759 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: And I think that's why I wanted to stick with

746
00:42:32,759 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 3: this original issue of feeling ashamed of feeling unattractive or

747
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: not wanted or not accepted in Dave's world, because yes,

748
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 3: obviously afterwards there have been these things which I think

749
00:42:49,279 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: we will need to go into around the cheating is that,

750
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 3: But actually before we go there, I do think this

751
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 3: is actually probably what's led into all of the other

752
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 3: stuff happening, because I think you're right there, Jess, where

753
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 3: if you hadn't felt that he was ashamed of you,

754
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: And this doesn't mean that you were ashamed of her,

755
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: but if that's how Jess feels, and it makes complete

756
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: sense as to why she would feel more insecure about

757
00:43:12,799 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: the other things.

758
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 6: I mean, I want to say that I have tried,

759
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 6: and it's true, it's there are okay, How can I said?

760
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 5: The main thing for me was the.

761
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 6: Fact that I was worried about having something happened about

762
00:43:31,759 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 6: the reaction, possibly maybe because my ex tails up or

763
00:43:35,799 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 6: something else, and then it will can you tell me

764
00:43:38,759 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 6: a massive argument?

765
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

766
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 3: Can you tell me? Because you've mentioned a couple of

767
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: times and I've even seen here today that you were

768
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: worried about how Jess reacts to things. Can you tell

769
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: me a bit more? And this is not to you know,

770
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: it's not about dubbing each other in for our bad behaviors,

771
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: you know, but we do need to talk about the behaviors.

772
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: And is there things that just does that you find

773
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: really hard to deal with?

774
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,959
Speaker 6: Yeah, So it's interesting because we had a discussion there

775
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,959
Speaker 6: before yesterday and about one of them, which is now

776
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 6: I don't remember it the same way. So it's interesting.

777
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 6: But from my point of view, so most of the time,

778
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 6: if we go up there is something something happens and

779
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 6: we'll have an argument and it's it's different, but it's

780
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 6: all the ways to do with meeting my friend, one

781
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 6: of my friends, or I don't know, me saying the

782
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 6: wrong world and then it goes into something else which

783
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 6: goes too far.

784
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 3: I just interject and say that, So there's never any

785
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 3: issue it it doesn't happen in public.

786
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 5: It's it's not just like one person.

787
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 4: I also don't like confront or anything like that, I'd say,

788
00:44:51,759 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 4: and then we argue about it later.

789
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 5: But that's that's usually what happens.

790
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 3: That's why Okay, so you anticipate problems and then feel like,

791
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 3: you know what, it's just easy if we don't go

792
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: out because I don't want her to get upset, and

793
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: then we have.

794
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 4: Exactly whereas what I'm thinking is I've run away. Obviously

795
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 4: I wasn't coping. Why is he not supporting me or saying, hey,

796
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 4: are you okay? You need a hard Can I do anything?

797
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 4: He's not doing that? Oh, and that's what I need

798
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 4: in that moment.

799
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I sort of.

800
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 6: It's difficult if I'm playing though, if I'm organizing, you know,

801
00:45:28,759 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 6: one of the jam sessions or something, because I do

802
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 6: that quite often, so I can't always be next to Jess.

803
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 6: But I suggested some places where I could you know,

804
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 6: where we do that, because I'd like you to be

805
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 6: close to me when I do these things as well.

806
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 5: It'd be good.

807
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: So if we were to think about the bottom line

808
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: here is how Jess doesn't feel a welcomed or solid

809
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 3: part of your life. So, and from what I hear

810
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 3: from your side, Dave, is that she is a part

811
00:45:59,799 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 3: of your life and she is welcoming. In fact, you

812
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 3: do you want her to be a solid part in

813
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 3: your life?

814
00:46:04,799 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, So to do that.

815
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: I think what's happening though, is it's whatever you're trying

816
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: to do is maybe not the things that just needs

817
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 3: so if we think about it, I mean, she mentioned

818
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 3: a few things there around having not met your family.

819
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's still current their case. I

820
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: have you not met your family or certain friends.

821
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 5: My family, it's a bit difficult.

822
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: Could it be over FaceTime or a zoom or I mean,

823
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 3: I don't know. Could there be ways to introduce.

824
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, we've I mean I had my sister and

825
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 6: I think I had anyway. Yeah, maybe I don't speak

826
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 6: to my family very often, to be honest, but yeah.

827
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 3: I'm assuming they know about Jessice existence in your life,

828
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,959
Speaker 3: right well? Yeah, just for you, what would make you

829
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 3: feel more welcome and a part of Dave's life.

830
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 4: I want him to be inviting me to be a

831
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 4: part of that, even if I don't go. I can't

832
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 4: always go. I have a young child, but I want

833
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 4: to know that welcome if invited to what anything? Anything. Yeah,

834
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: I'm not saying I expect to be there for everything,

835
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 4: because I think it's really important for us to do

836
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 4: things separately as well, and for him to have his

837
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 4: own friends, because you know, you're different groups of friends

838
00:47:23,799 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 4: sort of feed different parts of your soul at different times,

839
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 4: and that's really important because then that soul comes back

840
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 4: to me and I get the benefits. But I just

841
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 4: need to know that he's we're walking in there, and

842
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 4: he's you know, he's holding my hand, he's with me.

843
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 4: He's not going to leave me alone, and he wants

844
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 4: me there and he's not ashamed of me, and that

845
00:47:47,759 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 4: would make me feel better and like him saying, you know, oh,

846
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 4: I'm worried about what your reaction is going to be.

847
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 4: I'm wondering, worried about what's going to happen. I don't

848
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 4: you know. The only thing that's going to happen is

849
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 4: I'm going to feel uncomfortable and I'm going to slip

850
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 4: out and then send him a text later or something.

851
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 4: But you know that that makes me even more anxious

852
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 4: because I'm already thinking, you know, I know that I'm

853
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 4: going to stuff up. I just don't know where it's

854
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 4: going to be. And it's going to make me think

855
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 4: about that rather than think about you know, if.

856
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,039
Speaker 6: You if you leave a place like that and it's

857
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 6: just you leaving and you're SA sorry whatever, it's it's fine,

858
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,479
Speaker 6: it's just we Usually what happened after that is there's

859
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 6: been an argument that.

860
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 4: He takes it personally when I leave. He doesn't realize

861
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 4: it's about men's tall, managing my anxiety and removing myself

862
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 4: from a situation where I feel uncomfortable, because if I

863
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 4: feel uncomfortable in that situation, other people were going to

864
00:48:44,759 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 4: pick up on that, and it's it's gonna it's going

865
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 4: to be awkward for them, and it's not fair to

866
00:48:50,799 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 4: do that to other people that I don't really know.

867
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 4: It's not really fair to do that to him. So

868
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 4: for me, I'm actually making a really smart decision when

869
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 4: I leave, because it saves my anxiety from escalating further.

870
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 4: It saves him from being inboard by a girlfriend who's

871
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 4: clearly got something going on. It saves his friends being

872
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 4: confused and not knowing what's going on. So I genuinely

873
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 4: feel and I would love to have advice on this

874
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 4: because I don't know what else to do, because I

875
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 4: genuinely feel I'm actually making a really smart decision at

876
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 4: that point to leave while I'm still thinking clearly.

877
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 6: It's sort of tool and it's what I want to

878
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,039
Speaker 6: make you feel more uncomfortable, and what happened I think

879
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 6: if I remember, well now is like then I have

880
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 6: to explain to my friends where you left. So I

881
00:49:41,759 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 6: usually said, well, you know, yah, a kid who needs

882
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 6: to I said to.

883
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 4: Him, you can just tell them the truth, to tell

884
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,959
Speaker 4: them that she gets really anxious or she's not good

885
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 4: in social situations and not to take I met one

886
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 4: of his friends and she was so lovely and she

887
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 4: was so sweet, and I said that to her. I said, look,

888
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 4: I have to be honest, I don't know how long

889
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 4: I can stay because I'm really nervous at the moment.

890
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 4: And she was like, oh, don't worry, you know, we're

891
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 4: all nervous, blah blah blah. But the way she said it,

892
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 4: it actually felt like, you know, it would be okay

893
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 4: and she wouldn't be offended. And I did say to her, look,

894
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 4: you know, please just don't take it personally if you

895
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 4: turn around and I'm gone, because that's just me.

896
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 6: I'd love her to meet more exactly for that.

897
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: I know it's weird, I.

898
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: Know, but it's not weird. And look, I think my

899
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 3: only thought around that. I mean, number one, I think

900
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: it's great that you are able to check in with

901
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: yourself and know where your limits are and if it's

902
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: not feeling good or you need to step away. I

903
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 3: think that is really important, because you're right. Sometimes it

904
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 3: does further damage to ourself or our partner when we

905
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 3: try and push through and we don't listen to what

906
00:50:48,799 --> 00:50:51,959
Speaker 3: we really need. There could be a middle ground, though,

907
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: where you step out for a bit and whether that

908
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: be something that Dave is a part of, and like,

909
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 3: we love that it's with you to try and help

910
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 3: yourself sooth so you can come back, like what if

911
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: you rather than leaving. And sometimes you might actually just

912
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 3: have to leave and that's okay, But there might be

913
00:51:08,799 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 3: other times where it's like I'm definitely not coping right now,

914
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 3: but I could be brought back down and be able

915
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: to come back in, you know. So there'd be times

916
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 3: where maybe you don't have to miss the whole thing

917
00:51:18,799 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 3: and you could step out and that could be something

918
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: that Dave could support you.

919
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 4: I actually love that. I think that's great because I'm

920
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 4: just listening to him now and I'm realizing I'm not

921
00:51:27,799 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 4: actually thinking about how he's left to handle the situation

922
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 4: after I'm gone. I'm just so proud of myself for

923
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 4: getting out when I.

924
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 3: Needed to, Like, I'm out of the fire.

925
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 4: You know, Dave's sitting there.

926
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 6: I think, well, that would help me if when you leave,

927
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 6: just could come to me and say, Dave, I'm sorry

928
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 6: I have to leave. You know, but there's not there's

929
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 6: no issues. I just need some space or whatever. And

930
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 6: that would that would really.

931
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 3: Have So do you normally slip out without letting Dave

932
00:51:58,799 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 3: know or without telling this?

933
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 4: I have to be honest. Sometimes I wait till he

934
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 4: goes and gets a drink, and then I'll slip out

935
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 4: because I know that I'll have a couple of minutes

936
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 4: to get away. But last time I get that he

937
00:52:11,279 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 4: called me an uber, so that was really sweet of him.

938
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 4: He was really annoyed at me, but he still called

939
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 4: me an uber.

940
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 5: I would so.

941
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: Maybe we just got to tweak what's happening here a

942
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 3: little bit, right. So do you think, Dave that for you,

943
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 3: you would feel more happy and comfortable about Jess coming

944
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: to social things or gigs with you if you knew

945
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: that you had a better system where you would trust

946
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: that if she wasn't feeling.

947
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 6: Okay, there's no I mean an argument after that, it's

948
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 6: going to be fine. Even if she's try girls with

949
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 6: a friend doesn't get on, We're going to be all right.

950
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 3: When we come back. It's time to think about the

951
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 3: homework that Jess and David need to work on between

952
00:52:53,920 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 3: sessions back in a tick. Homework is a big part

953
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 3: of couples and family therapy. As much as some people

954
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: wish their therapists could move in with them, we can't.

955
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 3: So homework is where people can practice new kinds of

956
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 3: communication and different responses and behaviors to break through the

957
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: barriers and challenges their relationship is facing in real time. Look,

958
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: I won't be bombarding you with homework, but you know,

959
00:53:21,799 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 3: I think it's handy to have a couple of little

960
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 3: experiments or things to be observing and trying in the week,

961
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 3: and then we report back and chat about did that work,

962
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 3: did that not work? What happened there? So leading us

963
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: into a bit of that I think could be coming

964
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: up with a system that you guys both feel happy

965
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: about in terms of navigating these social situations together. So,

966
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: whether that be Jess on your end, coming up with

967
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 3: you know, commitments that you're going to make. I will

968
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 3: make sure that I don't leave without telling you I

969
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 3: will make sure that if it's a situation that I

970
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 3: feel I could use some help with, rather than because

971
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 3: you might just need to leave and that's okay. But

972
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 3: if it's that, you know what, I need a break

973
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 3: and I might be able to come back in this

974
00:54:07,279 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 3: is how I'll ask you, so really having like sort

975
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 3: of formulated like lines or plans of how I would

976
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: ask you for that. And then Dave, I think what

977
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 3: would be important is for you to go if you

978
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 3: ask me to come and help you, you know, whether

979
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 3: it's recenter, calm down, just you know, get yourself back together.

980
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 4: But don't say the words calm down. Oh my god,

981
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 4: if you say those like nobody nobody comes down, they

982
00:54:31,799 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 4: come up, you know they yeah, tell them that.

983
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 3: He can't say, okay, So he's saying you can tell me.

984
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 5: If I said that to Jess, it's going to be

985
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 5: a different problem. But for me it's fine.

986
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,479
Speaker 3: Jeff can say I feel like I need help calming down, Jess,

987
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 3: could you maybe use the word for her own self

988
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: or even just like I feel like I need a

989
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,720
Speaker 3: bit of reassurance. Can you help me do some self

990
00:54:55,799 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: soothing in the bathroom or outside, or can we.

991
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 4: You mean I don't have to run away this alternative, yeah.

992
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: Because I think it is really sad that you're running

993
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 3: away and for the times that you might not have to,

994
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 3: and you actually have a partner there that can support

995
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: you in being there. It sounds like he does want

996
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: you there, but he just doesn't know what to do,

997
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 3: you know.

998
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 6: I mean it's if I'm playing, I'm an hostage, sure,

999
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 6: and I can't be there very much of course, so

1000
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 6: that's where you need maybe a fan as well or something.

1001
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean we could even work.

1002
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 4: It's not one of your exes.

1003
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,959
Speaker 3: Not one of the exes, please. I think let's say,

1004
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 3: if Dave's on stage and you're feeling overwhelmed, you might decide, Okay,

1005
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to head outside and I'll text him so

1006
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: when he finishes his set that he'll see his phone

1007
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 3: and he can check if I'm still outside, he can

1008
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 3: come and will do that self soothing and reassuring thing.

1009
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 3: If it's been too much and I had to leave

1010
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: by then Okay, it is what it is, you know

1011
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 3: what I mean. But there'll be other opportunities where he

1012
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 3: is available and able, and I guess, Dave, I think

1013
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 3: it will be important for you to make sure that

1014
00:55:58,799 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 3: it's really prioritized, even if I'm chatting with someone, even

1015
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 3: if whatever. If Jess needs me for fifteen minutes or

1016
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 3: ten minutes, I excuse myself. I go with her because

1017
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: this is how we rebuild the trust that you've got me.

1018
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 3: I feel supported absolutely.

1019
00:56:13,759 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the things. I know.

1020
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 6: You know, we had a big argument two days ago,

1021
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 6: but there's something that I.

1022
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 5: Realized as well.

1023
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 6: So I'm hoping even though it was maybe a was

1024
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 6: it was not a good moment, maybe I'm learning something

1025
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 6: out of it as well.

1026
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I do think arguments are often you know,

1027
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 3: unpleasant in them, but they can often be very constructive,

1028
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 3: and sometimes we kind of need to get to that

1029
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 3: level for the real stuff to actually come out so

1030
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 3: we can work with what's really happening here.

1031
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 4: I feel so too. I just I feel like I

1032
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 4: just need to know that if I do need space

1033
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 4: or I do need to go away, he can't take

1034
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,039
Speaker 4: it personally, and he can't say, you know, you left

1035
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 4: because of this person and that was humiliating for me

1036
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 4: or something like that, because actually I didn't. I left

1037
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 4: because I wasn't coping. Yeah, and I need to need

1038
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 4: it to get out of there, and I need I

1039
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 4: really really want for him to understand that because it

1040
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 4: makes it harder for me to go next time if

1041
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 4: I'm feeling, yeah, uncomfortable, but I can't leave because he's

1042
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 4: gonna decide that it's all about something that it's actually

1043
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 4: not about.

1044
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if we were to add a little part two,

1045
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 3: I'm adding onto the homework, but if part one is

1046
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: just you having a look at in what ways, like

1047
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 3: what will we do for that ten minute? You know,

1048
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: Like so I will come up and I'll say this

1049
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 3: if I need you, Dave, and then you come with me,

1050
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 3: and this is what would help me in that ten minutes?

1051
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: Can we do this? Can we do that? Blah blah? Okay,

1052
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 3: I think on Dave's end of things, I would like

1053
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: to see you have a real reflection about what are

1054
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 3: the things that I can do that can help just

1055
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 3: feel more welcome in my life? Is it posting some

1056
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: photos about some Facebook or whatever? Is it, you know,

1057
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,999
Speaker 3: organizing to have her come on and say hello next

1058
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 3: time I'm chatting to my family on the phone. I

1059
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: don't know, but coming up with some things that may

1060
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 3: seem not that big of a deal to you, but

1061
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 3: obviously feel like missing for Jess.

1062
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,999
Speaker 6: Of course, I'd like I mean, i'd like to sort

1063
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 6: of explain why I know. The Facebook thing is a

1064
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 6: bit of an obvious and I'd like to explain that

1065
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 6: a bit.

1066
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 4: It had his extras all over there, even once he

1067
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 4: was with when we were separated, they were all over

1068
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 4: Facebook and everything.

1069
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 6: But not okay, so well, anyway, it's music related.

1070
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 5: What am I?

1071
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 6: And I do post a lot of things on Facebook

1072
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 6: about music and not much about my kids or anything.

1073
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 6: Nothing at already about my family, mostly just about the music.

1074
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 6: But it's to I tried to put some point a

1075
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 6: photo of us too, honestly money it wasn't a big thing,

1076
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 6: but look, I still want to put even there.

1077
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 5: We had an argument a couple of days after.

1078
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 6: An hour to put it off, to put it down

1079
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 6: and actually bokes my heart whichever photo I took. We

1080
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 6: had a breakup and just ask me to remove all

1081
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 6: the photos and it was really difficult for me.

1082
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 5: So one of the things is before I put the photos.

1083
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 6: It's horrible to say, but before I put the photos

1084
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 6: on Facebook, I want to know that we're secure.

1085
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 3: And that's why it's kind of like a bit of

1086
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 3: an insurance policy though, which doesn't feel because we could

1087
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 3: circle this around, right, So, yeah, I want to feel

1088
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 3: that you're not going to break up with me before

1089
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 3: I put photos of us on social media. But by

1090
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 3: you not putting the photos of the two of you

1091
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 3: on social media destabilizes the security and the validity and

1092
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: publicness of the relationship, which sounds like it's important to just.

1093
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 4: Do it. Does it just reinforces yeah, to me that

1094
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 4: I'm not really welcome, that he's still a little but

1095
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 4: ashamed of me and wants to keep me sort of

1096
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 4: separate from that part of his life.

1097
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: So I.

1098
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 5: Sort of just saying that's the reason.

1099
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, and it's fair enough that that's your reason.

1100
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 3: I guess it's just looking at does this reason to

1101
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: get in my way? If my goal is to have

1102
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 3: this relationship be a happy and healthy one. Does my

1103
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 3: reason for not putting the photo up getting my way

1104
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 3: of achieving my goal? And I think it does. That's

1105
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 3: sort of the reason why I'm bringing that up is

1106
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: not to put down your reasoning, but just is my

1107
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 3: reasoning actually a bit counterproductive for me if I want

1108
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 3: this relationship to be happy and healthy? Yeah?

1109
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 5: No, that's that's fair enough.

1110
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't think it means like you've

1111
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 3: got a blast photos of Jess all over there, all

1112
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 3: over your page, but just and it could be there

1113
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 3: might be other things. And this is why I'm sort

1114
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 3: of setting this for homework, is more things. There may

1115
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 3: be lots of other little ways that you can make

1116
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 3: Jess also feel just more a part of it, like

1117
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 3: meeting different friends, different people, you know, being involved in

1118
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 3: certain things that you do. And of course that doesn't

1119
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 3: mean that she has to attend everything you attend, but

1120
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 3: just having the Do I invite her to stuff? Or

1121
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 3: do I just assume she doesn't want to come? Or

1122
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 3: do I assume she's busy? Do I assume she, you know,

1123
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 3: will get anxious and angry and we'll have to leave.

1124
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 3: So I don't bother inviting anymore, Like maybe there are

1125
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 3: things you could just look at and just check. Do

1126
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 3: I make sure that she feels welcome in this area.

1127
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 4: Of my life?

1128
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 3: Oh?

1129
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 5: I mean I try to do that.

1130
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 6: Like mostly what I do, you know, apart from work,

1131
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 6: is music. So I try to involve her in the

1132
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 6: music whenever it's possible.

1133
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, so but I can do more I

1134
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 3: mean I can, and maybe that will be the homeworkers

1135
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 3: for you to start listing.

1136
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 5: That okay listing, Yeah, yeah, Okay.

1137
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,479
Speaker 3: Now in terms of I think probably just based on time,

1138
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 3: we'll probably leave and I think maybe pick up a

1139
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 3: bit more on the different perspectives about the cheating stuff,

1140
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 3: because I do think that that is important to get into.

1141
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 3: I think just the original feeling ashamed of me stuff

1142
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 3: I think was the when that sort of came up,

1143
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 3: I felt like that was actually we need to work

1144
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 3: there first. Then we can go to the different perspectives.

1145
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: And I guess we could have start looking at a

1146
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 3: couple agreements like what are our We might have certain

1147
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: slight different ways or perceptions of things, but we need

1148
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 3: to have a couple agreement of what isn't isn't okay

1149
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 3: behavior wise under all different circumstances, even if we have

1150
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 3: different perceptions. So I'm thinking that might be better for

1151
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 3: us to leave today, but to talk about next time

1152
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 3: if you feel like would be useful.

1153
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 4: I think that would be good because when we had

1154
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 4: this big discussion the other day to try and work

1155
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 4: through some of the things, Yeah, we talked a bit

1156
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 4: about that.

1157
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, so maybe we park it and we you're meaning

1158
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 6: how to have an argument without it going you know, sideways, that.

1159
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 5: Communict done better.

1160
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: Yes, so we're talking about different ways to communicate about it,

1161
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 3: but also actually coming to like we could be workshopping

1162
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 3: agreements between you about what is cheating, what's acceptable, what's not.

1163
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 3: Even if we have your own perspective in life of

1164
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 3: what cheating is. In this relationship, what cheating is is this,

1165
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 3: So we're going to have a shared agreement about what

1166
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 3: cheating is between us. We can have individual ideas about

1167
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 3: what cheating is. We're two different people, we have different perspectives,

1168
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 3: but in this relationship, if we're together, we need to

1169
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 3: agree what is and isn't. Okay, Yeah, yeah, I agree

1170
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 3: with that.

1171
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, I mean yes, Okay.

1172
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 3: Well, I hope that this session went a bit better

1173
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 3: than the other couple of times that you've tried. We've

1174
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 3: made it to the end. We're still talking. Look at that,

1175
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 3: you're still talking.

1176
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

1177
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1178
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 3: I think Justin David came here to to work through

1179
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 3: some of their communication issues and also to really untangle

1180
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 3: some more deeply rooted problems between the two of them

1181
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 3: around perception, trust, agreements about behavior, and even just feeling

1182
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 3: secure with each other in the relationship. I think trust

1183
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 3: issues are a really common problem in couples, and particularly

1184
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 3: different perceptions about what cheating might be, what is and

1185
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 3: isn't okay, what's acceptable, And I believe that Jess and

1186
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 3: David do have two quite different beliefs and perspectives about this,

1187
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 3: and that has to stabilized a lot of the trust

1188
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,919
Speaker 3: between them. However, if we don't get to the things

1189
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 3: underneath that, it's very hard to work on the more

1190
01:04:55,120 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 3: touchy issues around cheating and sex and trust. So I

1191
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 3: often see couples getting so stuck on the sex and

1192
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 3: the you know, the high intensity bits of mistrust, but

1193
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 3: actually there will be something underneath that that has created

1194
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 3: a bit of tension or lack of stability, which then

1195
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: makes the more higher intensity things set off real big

1196
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 3: alarm bells for people. So in David and Jess's case,

1197
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 3: looking at the fact that Jess feels that David is

1198
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 3: ashamed of her is actually the beginning of her working

1199
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 3: through what she needs to to be able to trust

1200
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 3: him in those more higher alarm bell situations with other women.

1201
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 4: I'm feeling really quite positive about the session that we've

1202
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 4: just had Sarah. I think is amazing because she's picked

1203
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 4: up on things that are really big issues, and we

1204
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 4: might not have realized that there are big issues, and

1205
01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 4: she's allowed us to sort of start to deconstruct them

1206
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 4: already in a way that's got me thinking more about

1207
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 4: his perspective and him sort of looking at my perspective

1208
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 4: with a bit more compassion rather than dismissing me. I'm

1209
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,959
Speaker 4: just thinking about David, and I feel like right now,

1210
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:24,999
Speaker 4: he's probably feeling good about the fact that we're still

1211
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 4: talking to each other and maybe we've got a bit

1212
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 4: more clarity on each other's point of view. But I

1213
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 4: know that he feels a bit worried about the homework,

1214
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 4: and I suspect he's not sure whether that's achievable or not,

1215
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 4: and he's probably looking forward because he's a little bit pessimistic.

1216
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 4: I mean I am too, but he's probably a little

1217
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 4: bit worried about what's going to happen if we're not

1218
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 4: able to do the homework, or if the homework doesn't

1219
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 4: sort of pan out the way that we're hoping it will.

1220
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, how I'm fitting about the session today. I

1221
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 6: think it was helpful, Actually, well it was. It was

1222
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 6: good because we didn't go too much in detail, so

1223
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 6: we looked at the important things like communication styles or

1224
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 6: but we didn't go too much in detail, so I

1225
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 6: think it avoided potential triggers. The other thing is what

1226
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 6: we held our hands together, so that I think it

1227
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 6: helped as well. So yeah, just did not did not

1228
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 6: feel the need to leave or anything like that.

1229
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 5: It helped.

1230
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,959
Speaker 6: And yeah, no, I think it's good also because it's

1231
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 6: the first session we've managed to do with a bad outcome.

1232
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 6: It's not been good in the past. Basically, So where

1233
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 6: do I think we will be as a couple next week?

1234
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:57,039
Speaker 6: I think we should be okay. I think we'll be okay.

1235
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 6: I mean I'm hoping more than okay, but I think

1236
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 6: it will help. But you know, this session today will help.

1237
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 3: My hopes for the next session is to see David

1238
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 3: really come in with some solid ideas. He may have

1239
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,479
Speaker 3: even implemented one or two things. I don't know, we'll see,

1240
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 3: but some solid ideas around how he can make Jess

1241
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,640
Speaker 3: feel like she is a part of his life, that

1242
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 3: he's proud of her, and that he wants the world

1243
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 3: to know it. I'm hoping that Jess is able to

1244
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 3: come up with a really well articulated plan about what

1245
01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 3: she'll do if she starts feeling uncomfortable at social situations,

1246
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 3: how she'll communicate that to David, and what he can

1247
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,520
Speaker 3: do to help support her to regulate again so that

1248
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 3: she doesn't have to feel like she has to isolate

1249
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 3: every time that she's just regulated. This Is Why We

1250
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 3: Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Neilson.

1251
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 3: The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is

1252
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 3: Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon. Additional

1253
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 3: production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting

1254
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:03,560
Speaker 3: producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought up

1255
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 3: any hard feelings or if you feel like you need

1256
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 3: a bit of help, there are links in our show

1257
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,600
Speaker 3: notes to resources available to you right now, as well

1258
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 3: as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds. If

1259
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,440
Speaker 3: you'd like to apply to be on the next season

1260
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 3: of This is Why We Fight, there's a link to

1261
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 3: the application in our show notes too. The second part

1262
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,480
Speaker 3: of Jesson David's session comes out in a few days,

1263
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 3: but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers

1264
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 3: have early access to the episode in full right now.

1265
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,520
Speaker 3: Follow the link in the show notes to listen. Meet

1266
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 3: you there.

1267
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 5: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

1268
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 5: waters that this podcast is recorded on.