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Speaker 1: It's Sunday, March eighteenth, nineteen eighty four, in Florida, and

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Speaker 1: Terry Ferguson is at the local shopping center on the

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Speaker 1: hunt for a new outfit. Her boyfriend has been away

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Speaker 1: on a trip and she wants something nice to wear

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Speaker 1: to welcome him back. She was hoping her girlfriends might

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Speaker 1: come with her, but they're all busy. She doesn't mind.

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Speaker 1: She's happy to browse by herself. At two thirty pm

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Speaker 1: that afternoon, a man approaches her. He looks nice enough,

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Speaker 1: well dressed in his late thirties, handsome, charming. He has

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Speaker 1: an Australian accent and a camera around his neck. He

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Speaker 1: tells twenty one year old Terry he's a photographer. He

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Speaker 1: even has a business card. I can make you a star,

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Speaker 1: he says. He tells her he'd like to do a

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Speaker 1: quick shoot with her at a nearby beach for a

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Speaker 1: local surfing store. Little does she know, she has happened

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Speaker 1: across a serial killer, a man who will become known

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Speaker 1: as the Beauty Queen Killer, a man who has killed

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Speaker 1: multiple young women, A man who was about to kill her.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to true crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. For

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Speaker 1: the past few decades, the confirmed victims of Christopher Wilder

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Speaker 1: was believed to be between nine and eleven. Our guests

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Speaker 1: today believe that number is more likely to be thirty

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Speaker 1: or more. In the months before his death, Wilder turned

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Speaker 1: from a serial killer into a spree killer, murdering women

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Speaker 1: every few days between February and April nineteen eighty four

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Speaker 1: before he was finally stopped. All his victims were women.

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Speaker 1: Most were aged in their late teens early twenties, all

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Speaker 1: of them beautiful with aspirations to model. Wilder grew up

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Speaker 1: in Australia. This was his first hunting ground before he

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Speaker 1: took his horror to America. Didn't creep around in the

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Speaker 1: bushes and kidnap women unawares. He didn't have to. He

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Speaker 1: walked up to them in broad daylights, surrounded by people.

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Speaker 1: He charmed them, lured them. Many of the victims of

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Speaker 1: this depraved killer have largely been forgotten because there were

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Speaker 1: simply so many of them. That was why award winning

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Speaker 1: journalist and author Andy Byrne and former Channel seven TV

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Speaker 1: executive Mark Llewellyn wanted to revisit this case in a

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Speaker 1: podcast called Hatching Evil. They've followed Wilder's footsteps, found new victims,

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Speaker 1: spoken to families that have shared their story for the

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Speaker 1: first time, because they think there is much more to

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Speaker 1: this case and they believe Wilder is the perpetrator behind

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Speaker 1: one of our most famous unsolved murder cases, the infamous

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Speaker 1: wander Beach killings. Andy and Mark join us now, Mark, Andy,

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Having conversation than kiss. You've

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Speaker 1: both had huge career is TV, newspapers, books. That's putting

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Speaker 1: it very lightly. How do you know each other and

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Speaker 1: how did you end up doing a podcast investigation together?

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Speaker 2: Andy and I met when I was working at Channel

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Speaker 2: nine actually doing a current affair, and Andy came and

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Speaker 2: took a job for a current affair with me, and

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Speaker 2: we kind of knew that we had the same sort

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Speaker 2: of likes. We like journalism, we like a laugh, we

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Speaker 2: like investigation, and you know, we like to talk about stories.

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Speaker 2: And so from that grew of friendship were kind of

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Speaker 2: fractured friendship at times, but a pretty good friendship to

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Speaker 2: be honest. From that grew of friendship and then We've

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Speaker 2: always been in touch wherever our careers have taken us,

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Speaker 2: and we ended up doing a crime series at Channel seven,

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Speaker 2: and in that series were some things that led to

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Speaker 2: this podcast. Now that's more Andy's territory because they're very

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Speaker 2: particular and very personal to him. But it's been an

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Speaker 2: interesting journey, but one that we've done together, which is good.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a case your particular, and you have

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Speaker 1: been chasing and covering for what years, nearly a decade

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Speaker 1: of your life.

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Speaker 3: That's right, not full time, I should say, but certainly

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Speaker 3: for the last eighteen months the pair of us have

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Speaker 3: been pretty much, you know, eighty percent of the time

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Speaker 3: we've been spent. We've spent on this, but to fill

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Speaker 3: in the gap of mark stories. So when we were

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Speaker 3: researching the new crime show, I was looking for the

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Speaker 3: stories that we could cover, big stories, and Wilder was

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Speaker 3: on a list, but I wasn't really taken with it

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Speaker 3: until I discovered one day that he'd grown up in

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Speaker 3: the same suburb where I was living with my family

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Speaker 3: now years a part of course, not at the same time,

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Speaker 3: but I was fascinated, how you know a suburb that's

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Speaker 3: twenty minutes from the center of Sydney family, picket fences,

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Speaker 3: playgrounds full of cul de sacs, so kids play out

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Speaker 3: in the street. You know, I lived on a cul

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Speaker 3: de sac, so did Wilder. Beautiful house that his father

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Speaker 3: built overlooking the Lane Cove River. How could a situation

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Speaker 3: like that, He wasn't from a broken home or anything

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Speaker 3: like that, his parents were still together. How could a

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Speaker 3: monster be produced out of something like that? And that's

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Speaker 3: what kind of got me interested.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've written a whole book on this before you've

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Speaker 1: even started the podcast. That was many years ago, and

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Speaker 1: now obviously you've been spending eighteen months in this podcast,

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Speaker 1: so you obviously had still a lot of unanswered questions

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Speaker 1: from that time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, as I say, it began with the fascination

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Speaker 3: with Wilder and what produced him. But in doing the book,

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Speaker 3: researching the book and a documentary that Mark and I

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Speaker 3: more commissioned and I produced, met so many families and

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Speaker 3: survivors that the story turned for me and I realized

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Speaker 3: that the real story here that had never been told

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Speaker 3: is the story of those families and of the victims

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Speaker 3: and of the survivors. They'd never been heard. They vowice,

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Speaker 3: had been forgotten. You know, at the time, it was

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Speaker 3: all about the man hunt for wild It was all

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Speaker 3: about him, and oh yeah, a girl died and her

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Speaker 3: body was done two days later, but he's now believed

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Speaker 3: to be in California. No one ever had gone back

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Speaker 3: and talked to those families and found out about those girls,

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Speaker 3: those young girls. And it annoyed me that at the

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Speaker 3: time there were newspaper reports almost suggesting that all these

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Speaker 3: were silly, naive girls. Why did they do that? And

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Speaker 3: it's just so wrong.

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Speaker 1: So do you think it's also because there were so

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Speaker 1: many victims. It's a case of like, oh, there's too

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Speaker 1: many to cover, we'll cover Wilder.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's why they kind of gotten over time

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Speaker 1: hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: They were yesterday's headlines by tomorrow. But what they don't recognize,

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Speaker 2: and this is universal to a lot of these crimes.

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Speaker 2: It's not just Wilder, and that's part of what we're

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Speaker 2: discovering on this journey. But what they don't recognize is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, this this girl that's been taking their sister,

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Speaker 2: their daughter, their girlfriend, their wife. You know, it's just

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Speaker 2: rig national havoc on these families, and they have no answers,

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Speaker 2: and nobody's listening to them, and nobody's listening to what

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Speaker 2: they want to say, which includes why aren't the police

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Speaker 2: helping me? Why are they so useless? And in some cases,

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Speaker 2: you know, why are they not listening to the actual

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Speaker 2: information that we're able to help them with. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's like a culture of silence. But that culture of

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Speaker 2: silence then goes into years and decades where they want

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Speaker 2: to be able to celebrate and remember a woman who

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Speaker 2: was lively and full of opportunity, and it's just nothing,

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Speaker 2: you know, and people ask us the question, oh, do

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Speaker 2: you feel intrusive going into their lives? It's the exact opposite.

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Speaker 3: We're the first.

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Speaker 2: People in forever who've actually gone and asked questions about

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Speaker 2: the most significant person in their life. And that's really

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Speaker 2: important to be able to open up and talk about

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Speaker 2: somebody and celebrate them.

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Speaker 1: It really shocked me, not like on your skill, but

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Speaker 1: that these people hadn't shared their stories before, they hadn't

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Speaker 1: been asked about their stories. Because there are so many

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Speaker 1: families in your podcast that you have spoken to for

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Speaker 1: the first time, and this is a really notorious serial killer.

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Speaker 1: It shocked me that they hadn't been given the opportunity before,

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Speaker 1: Like that's wild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is wild. And the problem with that is that, well,

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Speaker 2: in terms of the investigation, when Wilder died and a

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Speaker 2: really bizarre shootout on the New Hampshire Canadian border, the

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Speaker 2: police basically said, in the FBI basically said, well it's it,

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Speaker 2: you know, so no further investigation. It kind of just stopped.

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Speaker 2: And the reality is that Wilder wasn't just killing out

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Speaker 2: one to beach once and waiting another twenty years to

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Speaker 2: have a bit of a crag. He was doing it

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Speaker 2: consistently for those twenty years. And there are throughout the

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Speaker 2: States and probably in New South Wales we found that's

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Speaker 2: another episode to come another part of New South Wales

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Speaker 2: where we think took maybe six seven girls. Wow, okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: So there is no investigation. It just stopped dead. And

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Speaker 2: that's another frustration for the families of the victims, and

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Speaker 2: for the families of victims that to this day we

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Speaker 2: don't know were wild Is victims. You know, there's one

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Speaker 2: case that we investigated where the mother died not knowing

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Speaker 2: that her daughter was taken by Wilder due to a

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Speaker 2: horrendous mistake, and that daughter was a Jane Day for

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Speaker 2: twenty seven years, twenty seven years unrecognized, sitting in a morgue, nobody.

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Speaker 3: Claiming because of a lot mistake by the pathology.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but the thing is that when they did recognize

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Speaker 2: that it was her daughter, she's now dead. Her sisters though,

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Speaker 2: were able to give her a burial, we were able

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Speaker 2: to mourn her, we're able to remember her. And so

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Speaker 2: there's this sense of much overused word closure. But it's

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Speaker 2: very important. It doesn't end the pain, but it does

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Speaker 2: help resolve a lot of a lot of the issues

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Speaker 2: surrounding it. And that's why, you know, it's important to

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Speaker 2: follow a case like this.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you asked the question about you're surprised that families

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Speaker 3: hadn't spoken before. I'll give you two examples. There's an

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Speaker 3: episode that that's come out this week that we've put out,

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Speaker 3: and it's two brothers and they've spent between them fifty

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Speaker 3: years in the US Navy. These are big, strong guys,

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Speaker 3: you know, and when their sister was taken by Wilder,

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Speaker 3: their parents didn't want to hear a name in the house.

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Speaker 3: They were so, you know, so upset by the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: And so these two brothers agreed that one of the

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Speaker 3: brothers agreed to see me, and then on the day

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Speaker 3: that we arrived to do the interview, they're at Pensacola

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Speaker 3: in you know, in Florida. He said to me, oh,

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Speaker 3: my brother's going to be here, my elder brother John.

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Speaker 3: We've never had a discussion between us in forty years

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Speaker 3: about our sister.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the first time that interview that they'd

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Speaker 3: ever spoken in the same room as each other about

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Speaker 3: their sister. And it was the hers on the back

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Speaker 3: of your neck astanding, you know, and they're both weeping,

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Speaker 3: and these are two men who've seen combat and stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: That is so sad.

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Speaker 3: It is love it and afterwards, if you can see,

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Speaker 3: it's like a weight's been lifted off the shoulder. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it really is.

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Speaker 1: Therapy's there for a reason talking about people and remembering

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Speaker 1: them and going through all of that. Yeah, that's so sad.

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Speaker 1: I want to rewind a bit for people, for listeners

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Speaker 1: that don't know the story. Don't know Wilder. One thing

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Speaker 1: that really got to me when I was kind of

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Speaker 1: looking at your promo and how you've kind of attacked

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Speaker 1: this story, so to speak. You kind of describe Wilder

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Speaker 1: as more cunning than Ted Bundy. And if Bundy makes

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Speaker 1: you shiver, wait until you hear about this guy. Why

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Speaker 1: do you say that Ted Bundy many people will know

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Speaker 1: that name. I would hazard to guess that not as

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Speaker 1: many know the name Wilder.

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Speaker 3: That's the answer, really?

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Speaker 1: Is that the answer?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was able to get away with it for longer.

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Speaker 2: We think than Ted Bundy be more successful. We think

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Speaker 2: the numbers will be up they perhaps even more than

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Speaker 2: did Bandy with still to sort that one out.

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Speaker 1: How many victims do you think?

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Speaker 3: Look, it's hard because there are clusters of victims all

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Speaker 3: over the place. And there's a guy on death row

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Speaker 3: in California who's been on death row there in San

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Speaker 3: Quentin for four decades and he was a former friend

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Speaker 3: or want they for me, He was a friend of

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Speaker 3: Wilders that in his racing team. And he says that

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Speaker 3: Wilder confessed to him that he'd murdered eleven women at

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Speaker 3: that stage, and that conversation took pot before the rampage

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Speaker 3: and before an awful lot of other suspected killings Wilder

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Speaker 3: had done. And if you think that, all the experts

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Speaker 3: tell us and they all agree that Wilder is the

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Speaker 3: prime suspect. He's the wonder beach killer. A killer doesn't

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Speaker 3: then wait twenty years to go on the rampage. He's

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Speaker 3: committing crime, and he's in the perfect place in southern Florida,

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Speaker 3: because to get rid of a body in southern Florida,

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Speaker 3: you just go out to a bit of a swampy area.

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Speaker 3: You put it near water and the crocs and the

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Speaker 3: wild pigs and everything will pick it clean in a

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Speaker 3: couple of days.

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Speaker 1: Which is what he did.

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Speaker 3: Which is what he did. If you put those eleven

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Speaker 3: with the ones that we know about, and now we're

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Speaker 3: hearing and being told that he is a is a

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Speaker 3: suspect in was it Mark six?

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Speaker 2: Six seven victims on the New South Wales north coast, So.

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Speaker 1: We're getting up to like fifty No, I don't think, well,

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Speaker 1: who knows how high it would go, but certainly thirty

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Speaker 1: I think is.

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Speaker 3: The ballpark figure. Yeah, and look when he died, Mark's right.

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Speaker 3: The FBI, Look, they did do some checks, but they

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Speaker 3: were kind of financial routine checks. You know, where had

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Speaker 3: he been, where had he where had he spent and

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Speaker 3: bought petrol? Because like a lot of serial killers, since

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Speaker 3: you probably know most serial killers are white, middle class

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Speaker 3: guys who like to drive cars.

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Speaker 2: This we did. I'm still not sure about Andy, to.

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Speaker 1: Be honest, investigate each other and then we'll be yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So he drove enormous distances and he was

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Speaker 3: a racing car driver for goodness sake, you know. So

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Speaker 3: it's really hard and I get it. You know, we're

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Speaker 3: talking about a time when there were no computers around.

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Speaker 3: Police departments, particularly in America, didn't really communicate with each

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Speaker 3: other terribly. Well, so, if you're a Wilder who lives

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Speaker 3: in one area of Florida, but then he drives three

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Speaker 3: states away at the weekend and murders a girl and

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Speaker 3: then drives back, the dots are never going to be connected.

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Speaker 3: They would be today.

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Speaker 1: And that's where that cunning smart comes in.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's like when you constantly revise your homework

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Speaker 2: and you become better and better and better. Well, he

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Speaker 2: just became the supreme serial killer. He knew how to.

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Speaker 2: He was so good at it. And that's why, to

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Speaker 2: get back to your original question, we think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it probably surpasses Bundy in terms of the craft. But

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Speaker 2: here's another thing, and I'll let you in on something

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Speaker 2: We're about to reveal. One of our upcoming episodes. We

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Speaker 2: also think that he might have been following Bundy around

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Speaker 2: because we've spotted a pattern of him taking women where

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Speaker 2: Bundy had taken women. So we think that he might

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Speaker 2: have been sort of playing a bit of a game

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Speaker 2: with himself or marking himself off against Bundy himself. So

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why we're going to the States.

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Speaker 1: Just everything you learn about this guy, he just gets

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Speaker 1: more and more twisted, more sick.

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Speaker 3: What we are now discovering too, And this occurred to

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Speaker 3: Mark the other day when we were going over the

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Speaker 3: material is his victims are getting younger and younger, and

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Speaker 3: he was stalking them for quite some time beforehand. He

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Speaker 3: was in its typical predatory pedophile behavior, if you like.

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Speaker 3: He was ingratiating himself into families and into the lives

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Speaker 3: of people so he would get access to young girls,

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Speaker 3: you know, whether it's pretending to be a photographer at

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Speaker 3: a beauty contest so it gave him access, whether it

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Speaker 3: was befriending the local homicide detective. Why would he Why

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Speaker 3: would a serial killer do that? Well, I think I

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Speaker 3: think the answer is obvious is you know, why would

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Speaker 3: why would he follow and watch and stalk to two

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Speaker 3: sisters whose mother ran a business close to him, so

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Speaker 3: he could get the information so that then he could

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Speaker 3: be ringing them up and pretending to be from the school.

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Speaker 2: He rang them up and put on a fake female voice.

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Speaker 2: So he just faked the female voice of a teacher.

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Speaker 2: And you know he's been watching these girls because his

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Speaker 2: officers virtually next door. Do you know their mum's beauty salon.

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Speaker 2: It's just like the guy is constantly thinking of new

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Speaker 2: ways to entice and abduct people. And what goes on

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Speaker 2: in a mind like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, can you take us back to the kind of

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Speaker 1: the start a bit more about his origin story for

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Speaker 1: a listener. They don't know much about him. He said,

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Speaker 1: he grew up in this, you know, picture perfect Sydney

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Speaker 1: suburb because he was Australian American.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the son of an American war hero who

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Speaker 3: was in the Navy in the war. Surely, Yeah, a

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Speaker 3: Pearl Harbor from the Battle of Medway. He met Wilder's

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Speaker 3: mum on Shaw leave. She was the daughter of a

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Speaker 3: Sydney trump conductor. Wilder came along a year later, born

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Speaker 3: here in Australia War Ends. The father, Coley is still

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Speaker 3: in the Navy for the next fifteen years or so.

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Speaker 3: So Wilder then moves to America with his mom and

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Speaker 3: they follow the dad around to naval bases all over

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Speaker 3: America in the Philippines. And that's part of the trauma

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Speaker 3: that the experts talk about that, you know, he never settled,

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Speaker 3: he never made friends. It was constantly moving schools, you know,

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Speaker 3: all that kind of background. And then at fifteen, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't a happy marriage his parents. And at fifteen, when

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Speaker 3: his dad retired from the Navy, Wilder's mum gave him

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Speaker 3: an alti matum that she was going back to Australia

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Speaker 3: and taking Wilder and his brother at that stage, and

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Speaker 3: he could follow her or or he could stay in America.

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Speaker 3: He followed her and they built the house and ride

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Speaker 3: right wild It was fifteen. At that age, he'd already

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Speaker 3: started to commit offenses, weird stuff, you know, peeping tom's,

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00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 3: stealing women's underwear from from the local clothes lines, that

337
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 3: kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Because he lived that kind of by by coastal life,

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Speaker 2: you know, in America, born in Australia, came back to Australia.

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Speaker 2: He had this capacity to change his accent. So in

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Speaker 2: Australia at the time of say the Wonder Beach murders,

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Speaker 2: Elvis was huge and his dad was from Alabama, like Elvis,

343
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Speaker 2: and so Wilder was able to speak in this Elvis

344
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Speaker 2: like Alabama accent, raw and the draw and the girls

345
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Speaker 2: he had loved. There was a huge attraction to the girls.

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Speaker 2: He goes to America, he does the opposite and often

347
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Speaker 2: he'll put on an Australian twain, you know, sort of,

348
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Speaker 2: so he's exotic. So he was this shape shift of

349
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Speaker 2: this chameleon. And that relates back to your question. You know,

350
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Speaker 2: I have the backstory he traveled between these two countries.

351
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Speaker 2: The follow up is that years later, when ridiculously he's

352
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Speaker 2: given bow by a Sydney court, he's able to return

353
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Speaker 2: to America, but that has triggered something in his mind

354
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Speaker 2: which leads to the rampage. But he was able to

355
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Speaker 2: play between these two countries. It probably makes him, you know,

356
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Speaker 2: I mean, unique amongst serial killers that he operates in

357
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Speaker 2: two countries.

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Speaker 1: I've heard you say that his mum taught him sex

359
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Speaker 1: and his dad taught him torture. That's a pretty hectic sentence.

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Speaker 1: Did tell you what that means?

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Speaker 3: To be fair, We weren't the first ones to say

362
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 3: that that. We we were interviewing the FBI's top profiler

363
00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 3: who studied Wilder and when he discovered that Wilder while

364
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 3: had told some of this detail to his sex therapist.

365
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 3: What a name, What a name it is?

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Speaker 2: People have written in. I mean, it is extraordinary name

367
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: to her for a therapist, and you know people have

368
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 2: written in about it. But it is what it is.

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Speaker 2: And she was the therapist that he told all his

370
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 2: reality to. She believed there were fantasies. He was back

371
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 2: basically facing up to everything, and she just thought he

372
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Speaker 2: had these wild, violent sexual fantasies.

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Speaker 3: Including that he liked to watch his mother on dress,

374
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Speaker 3: so he used to peep on her and do that.

375
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Speaker 3: His father, of course, in the navy. His trade his

376
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 3: background was electrician and he had seen his father build

377
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Speaker 3: one of these devices. Now, whether it was ever used

378
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 3: on Wilder, I have no idea. The mother and father

379
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 3: did arrange for him after that rape that we mentioned,

380
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 3: before his first rape, they sent him for electric shock treatment,

381
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Speaker 3: which was barbaric.

382
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Speaker 1: To be honest, it's not treatment, it's torture.

383
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Speaker 3: It's torturearticularly this type and how it was done it

384
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 3: was real torture. So there was a hatred there apparently

385
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 3: that festered in Wilder for a his mother allowing him

386
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Speaker 3: to undergo that. But also his father was a heavy

387
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 3: drinker and when he was drunk, he was violent, and

388
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 3: he used to thrash the boys. He was also a

389
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Speaker 3: strict disciplinarian. And there are real similarities in the way

390
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 3: that he insisted that the boys called him sir and

391
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 3: said yes, sir and no, sir. And he did the

392
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Speaker 3: same with the victims. With the girls, he made them

393
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Speaker 3: do that, and if they didn't respond like that, he

394
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Speaker 3: used the electric shock treatment on them.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So the suggestion is that first of all, he

396
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 2: may have learned how to do that from his father

397
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: to construct the electric shock equipment that he later used

398
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Speaker 2: on his victims, and then that was exacerbated by the

399
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Speaker 2: electric shock therapy he went through courtesy of his parents

400
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: sending him there. But the theory from doctor Eric Hickey,

401
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 2: was the preeminent FBI investigator and the serial Killers an expert,

402
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 2: was that the strange, violent behavior of his father certainly

403
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 2: influenced him becoming a psychopathic serial killer, but the sexual

404
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: element he believes in, including the spraying of his mother's

405
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: favorite perfume before he did anything to the victims and

406
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: the room. He used to do that methodically, and his

407
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 2: obsession with women's underwear strongly points to some obsessive sexual behavior.

408
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: And his theory is that the mother was complicit in

409
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Speaker 2: his early life.

410
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Speaker 3: So we don't know for sure, but it makes sense.

411
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: It makes sense.

412
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Speaker 1: Does any of this explain though, why he has such

413
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Speaker 1: a hatred for women, for girls, because they were his

414
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: only victims young women.

415
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: One of the theories is this in people who have

416
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: had significant child trauma, and he's certainly you know, if

417
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,479
Speaker 2: you were rated out of ten es and eleven on

418
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Speaker 2: that scale. So for people who have significant childhood trauma,

419
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: that part of the brain that sort of regulates empathy

420
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,239
Speaker 2: atrifhies it just disappears. It can't be got back, and

421
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: they find that on a lot of cereal rapist. Again,

422
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 2: this is from Dr Eric Kicking and others that we interviewed.

423
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Speaker 2: So at that point, you know, you don't actually sympathize

424
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: with the people you're torturing or brutalizing or killing. These

425
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 2: are just part of a grander scare scheme, and the

426
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 2: scheme is one of power and control. So it might

427
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: be that he doesn't actually hate women. He loves killing,

428
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Speaker 2: if you get what I mean. There's this small distinction here.

429
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: It might be that he does hate women, you know.

430
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: But either way, whatever it is in our brains that

431
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: stops us from going around the streets and killing people,

432
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Speaker 2: he didn't have.

433
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think as well, it's all about dominance with him. Yeah,

434
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Speaker 3: it wasn't always the sacks. He didn't didn't rape a

435
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: number of his victims, but he was so violent with them.

436
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: There was a rage inside him. Where did that come from? Yes,

437
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: he certainly blamed his mother, because he said this to

438
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 3: his therapist. He blamed his mother for not protecting him

439
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: from the father. And that's a that's a big, big,

440
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: big part of it. But certainly that that that dominance

441
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: that he had to have. You know, we've talked about

442
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 3: his obsessions, and he'd spray his mother's perfume on the

443
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: bed sheets. His other obsession. There was a couple of them,

444
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 3: but the one that sticks out is his obsession with

445
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: the Collector, the book where a guy abducts a young

446
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 3: girl and keeps a a a in a secret basement,

447
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: you know, and he tries to he thinks that she

448
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: will eventually come to love him. It's really really weird

449
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: and twisted, and it's surprising. Doctor Hickey told us how

450
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: many serial killers become obsessed with this book. Get rid

451
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: of it.

452
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: Don't get rid of it.

453
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: That's scared.

454
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bath.

455
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with hosts of the Catching Evil podcast, Mark

456
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: Llewellyn and Andy Byrne.

457
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: Up.

458
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: Next, we take a closer look at the wander Beach murders.

459
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: Were they Christopher Wilder's first kills? You keep bringing up

460
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: the Wonder Beach murders, so let's go there. The Wonder

461
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: Beach murders nineteen sixty five, if I'm right, two young

462
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: girls fifteen. They were found buried and very brutally murdered

463
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: in wander Beach, which is a very remote stretch of

464
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: beach Danny Cronola in Sydney that has remained unsolved for many,

465
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: many years. It's one of our most notorious kind of

466
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: unsolved murders here in Australia. But you think that was

467
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: Wilder's first kill?

468
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

469
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: Yea, one hundred percent. Again, you mentioned how brutal and

470
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: uncontrolled it was. That's actually signifies that it probably was

471
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 2: the first kill. Again from some of the other experts

472
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: was to the first killers often disorganized, it's chaotic, they

473
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: don't really know what they're doing. And as one of

474
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: them says, killing ain't that easy. You know, people don't

475
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: die on the first stab. And so, but what it does,

476
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: that frenzy, that release of everything they've been fantasizing about,

477
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 2: leads them with a sort of impression that they can't

478
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: ever get rid of. They want to recreate that felling

479
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: forever and ever and ever. And that's probably what happened

480
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: with Wilder. But in the course of the investigation, I'll

481
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: throw over Andy on this. But one of the things

482
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: we've discovered courtesy of this podcast and a lot of

483
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: leads coming in are some really interesting stuff. So including

484
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: coming up a woman who was fifteen at the time

485
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: worked I was in ride used to go to a

486
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: department store where Wilder worked, and he approached her about

487
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: two weeks before he the Onander Beach killings and asked

488
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: her on multiple occasions was persistent, not once, not twice,

489
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: but more than that, persistent to this fifteen year old,

490
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: I want you to take time off work let's go

491
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: to Wander Beach together. I can come and pick you up.

492
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: I really want to do that, and she refused. She

493
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 2: was a shy fifteen year old. She's not told her

494
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: story publicly before. It places him in ride talking about

495
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: Wonder Beach two weeks before these two girls had taken

496
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: but more than that, afterwards, she came into the possession

497
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: of a diary he kept at the time. Remember he's

498
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: still a young bloke at this time, that had dozens

499
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: and dozens of names and phone numbers of local girls

500
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: in the area. Now, she gave it to the police

501
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: at the time, gave them the information. It's lost and

502
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: they didn't investigate.

503
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: So you know when you feel like comes up a

504
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: lot in Wonder Beach. They had DNA you got lost. Yeah,

505
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: they had a witness. Yeah, they didn't follow that.

506
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's right. I mean, perhaps I can summarize

507
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 3: the important elements. I think that we've discovered a lot

508
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: there that point directly to Wilder as being the killer.

509
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 3: Two victims. Now, that's very, very rare for a serious

510
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: crime like this. I mean, how does one person manage

511
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: two teenage girls? You know, they're not five year olds,

512
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: they're fifteen year old girls, so two of them. That's

513
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: extremely rare. It was a beach that Wilder went to

514
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 3: a lot. He was a surfer. The description of the

515
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: killer that mary Anne's seven year old brother gave to detectives,

516
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: which was checked and rechecked and they're absolutely convinced that

517
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: it was accurate and this is what he saw fits

518
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: Wilder to a tee. Then you had the incident marks

519
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: talking about this. New witnesses come forward. Now she was

520
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: fifteen at the time. She was shopping with her friend. Again,

521
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: two girls together in a shopping mall approached. That's what

522
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: Wilder did for the next twenty years. He wanted her

523
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: to go to Wanda Beach over about three different weekends.

524
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 3: When the murders happened, literally two weeks later. He never

525
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 3: went back to work. And the women who and where

526
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 3: did he work in that department store. He worked in

527
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: the women's fashion department.

528
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: I feel that face a lot because it just gets

529
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: grosser everything you say.

530
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: And the women who worked there said, oh, we've seen

531
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: him talk to you a few times. Are you a

532
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: friend And she said no, no, no, he was pestering me.

533
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 3: And they said, oh, he's left this book behind and

534
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: Mark's right in there were fifty pages of women's names

535
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: and telephone numbers. Now where did he get that? Well,

536
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: I would say we were talking before about he ingratiated

537
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: himself into situations where he could get information. He was

538
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: working in the fashion department, I think, because what I

539
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: should have explained is that one of the last names

540
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: in the book was a friend of this girl who'd

541
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: been trying to pester to go to Wanda Beach. When

542
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: she told her friend, did you know him? Your name's

543
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: in his book? She was horrified. Yeah, So where did

544
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: he get the details from? I think he got it

545
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 3: from the store. He was working there in the department.

546
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: I think he was watching women and when he took

547
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: a light to one or whatever, he would get her details.

548
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

549
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: It sounds like there are enough clues there that the

550
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: police could have caught him then and saved thirty plus.

551
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: Lie gets worse, doesn't it, because four years later, and

552
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: don't forget, as I say before, no computers or anything.

553
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: So this was the biggest investigation in the state's history.

554
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: You had I think it's something like ten thousand witness statements. Now,

555
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 3: these aren't on a computer that you can program and

556
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: it'll find all the connections. These were all on little

557
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: flash cards, sixty thousand of them apparently in total.

558
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: Imagine the boxes.

559
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, who's going to be able to cross reference? You

560
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: just wouldn't be able to do it.

561
00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: Oh, they still cocked up because Walter got murried.

562
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: Three years after Walmer Beach.

563
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: He gets murried, which is another detail that is wild

564
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: to me. How did she survive?

565
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: I didn't know that when Andy took me out, I'll

566
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: explain then you take it in. It takes me on

567
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: this drive and he's battered old many to the chapel,

568
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: the church where one of the victims that had her

569
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: memorial service was a wonderful Christine. And we drive up there.

570
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: I'm going, well, why you know, and we've got the

571
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: mic someone recording for the podcast. And then he tells

572
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: me that at the time when they had the service,

573
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: and it was the biggest news in Sydney, and there

574
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: were hundreds of mourners outside the church. You know, Wilder

575
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: lived a suburb away, if that a few hundred meters. Now,

576
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: then he says, now, look at the church, and he

577
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: drives me down the road and maybe fifteen twenty seconds later,

578
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: look at that building. And there's a block of flats.

579
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: See that top flat that overlooks that chapel. That's where

580
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: Wilder brought his first wife to live in. Now, if

581
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: you think that serial killers often keep trophies, there's a

582
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: good argument. He said that that was his trophy, that

583
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: he got a real thrill out of living just where

584
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: one of the victims was mourned after the murder of

585
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: that victim. Now, and he did the drive with me

586
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: that day. I didn't know, and I was absolutely shocked.

587
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: But it's a level of detail that makes sense, you know,

588
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: as you added up these details make sense to throw

589
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: it back to Andy. Not long after, because he tries

590
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: to kill his wife three times, there's an incident where

591
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: she goes to the police with her mother and her

592
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: sister and tells him that she believes that her husband

593
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: is the wonder beach killer.

594
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: It's remarkable he did try to kill his wife three times.

595
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: He stalked her on a beach with her sister. Two

596
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: girls together on a beach, same memo, same momo. After

597
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: he tries to kill her the third time, and that

598
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 3: is arrested in their front room for raping an eighty

599
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: year old nurse that he'd brought back to the house

600
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: and he admitted it in front of his wife. She

601
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 3: left him. A few days later, as Mark says, she

602
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: goes to the police station and she says, look, I

603
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: think that I think he could be connected to on

604
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: the beach. The police took eight months to go knock

605
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 3: on his door to look for him to take a statement.

606
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: In that time, he'd fled to America, which is a.

607
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: Detail I don't understand, because couldn't they just extradite him

608
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: back if they think he's the killer.

609
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: If you're so sort of like slack to take eight

610
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: months to go and knock on the door of the

611
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: person who's possibly responsible for the biggest unsolved crime in

612
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: the States in the city's history at that time, well

613
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: you can imagine that level of incompetence can then travel

614
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: a little bit further and rather than do what you

615
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: just said, which is the obvious damn thing, Yeah, come

616
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: back here, old son, just go oh, well, case closed,

617
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: which is effectively or we're not going to look into

618
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: it much further.

619
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: They're out on the murder book. Nothing further can be

620
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 3: done at this stage. Inquiries to sended.

621
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the poor old Americans and now got a serial.

622
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 3: I'm not making excuses for them at all. He had

623
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: two passports, so he could have been coming in and

624
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: out of the country on his American passport. And again

625
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: no computers. How would they have you know, how would

626
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: they have put it? And that could have been happening.

627
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: But you know, twenty years later, he gets arrested. He's

628
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: locked up in Manly Police.

629
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: Station because he's back in Australia.

630
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 3: As he's back in Australia and why is he back

631
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 3: in well, why is he in Manley Police station because

632
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: he lured two girls off a beach and assaulted them

633
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: in his motel room. But he's arrested, he's there. They've

634
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: got they know about the wife from twenty years before.

635
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: But did they do a search, did they do a check?

636
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: Did they know who the guy they had in the

637
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: cells was the wonder beach killer? Now I don't believe

638
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: that they did, because Wilder applied for.

639
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: Bail and they let him out.

640
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 3: The police officer in the court the prosecute he opposed bail,

641
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 3: but he opposed bail on the grounds of he could

642
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 3: be a flight risk. These are serious charges because he

643
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: was being charged with sexually assaulting these two girls, which

644
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: is a serious charge, but the magistrate gave him bail.

645
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: I don't believe that if the police prosecutor had said

646
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 3: to the magistrate were also investigating mister Wilder for far

647
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: more serious charges that he had been given bail, he

648
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been So I don't think the police had

649
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: made the connections at that stage. And what makes it

650
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 3: even more difficult for me to fathom is that when

651
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: Wilder died not long after, you know, we're talking about

652
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: twelve months later. When he died, there was a huge

653
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: press conference here in Sydney because it was the biggest

654
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 3: story in the world at the time, biggest crime story.

655
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: And the chief of Detectives here in Sydney at the

656
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 3: press conference when asked the question why didn't you why

657
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 3: did you not question Wilder about on the beach when

658
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: you had him in the police station, in the cells

659
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 3: in custody, And his answer still blows my mind today.

660
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 3: He said, Oh, we were intending to interview mister Wilder

661
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: at the conclusion of his trial.

662
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so we'll just hang around.

663
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 3: Unsolved case in the state's history. And they were waiting

664
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 3: for a very serious but not quite the same case

665
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 3: to enter, you know, why did they wait.

666
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: To connect the dots for listeners? He gets bail, he

667
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: goes back to America, he's a waiting trial, and then

668
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: he goes on this He basically turns from a serial

669
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: killer into.

670
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: A sprinkler, a spree killer and.

671
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 1: Kills multiple women in very close succession.

672
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: But it's even worse, Gemma, It's even worse because you're

673
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: talking about being a spree killer when he goes on

674
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 3: the rampage. We're going to America in a few days

675
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: because we're going to be talking to families of girls

676
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: who were murdered when he gets back to America before

677
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: he goes on the spree. Yes, so he murders in

678
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 3: that period, gets away with it.

679
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: Because that's what you're saying. You're saying that there is

680
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: this twenty year gap where they say Wilder didn't kill anyone,

681
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: but you're saying there are multiple victims there that just

682
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: haven't been linked to Wilder in a more formal sense,

683
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: and in.

684
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: Part because families weren't listening to, you know, evidence wasn't

685
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: looked at, people weren't heard. You know, it's all that.

686
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: It's just the tragedy of a system that fails the victims.

687
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: But also because there was a there was a body,

688
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: but it couldn't be identified. They were a Jane Doe,

689
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: so there was no way to link that too. Wilder

690
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: Now with DNA, every now and again they get a

691
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: match and they do an identification. I mean, in a

692
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 3: couple of cases we found out they were Florida girls

693
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: who the last contact with them they said to their parents, Oh,

694
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: about this guy. He's a fashion photographer. He's taking us

695
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: to New York. Yeah, because it's going to give us

696
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 3: a job, you know, as a model.

697
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: Why this fashion photographer thing, because it seems absolutely thirty years.

698
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: He'd go up to very beautiful young women. I mean,

699
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 2: there's one of the first episode we did, this amazing

700
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: woman called Francis Ferguson. His daughter Theresa was taken. She

701
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: was the dead spit for Jennifer bial in Flashdance, which

702
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: terribly was one of his favorite films. He was another

703
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: one of his obsessions. So he spots her in them

704
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 2: all and he takes her and then we asked, and

705
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: he asked the question about why would she go I mean,

706
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: surely that conversation about being a beauty queen.

707
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: I don't forget she was the daughter of the police coup.

708
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: Yes, she was daughter of the police captain would have

709
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: told her, you know, be careful, don't don't you know,

710
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: don't talk to strangers. And Francis said, look, she was naive.

711
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: She was a young girl who had issues about you know,

712
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: whether she was attracted of enough, good enough, all those

713
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,439
Speaker 2: issues that many young teenage girls have. And a man

714
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: who does not look threatening. So remember he operated in

715
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 2: broad daylight. He comes up to you in a mall.

716
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: He doesn't, he's not sneaking around and coming up to you,

717
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: you know, and the dead night he's there. He's wearing

718
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: a Rolex watch, you know, his hairs neatly clipped. He's

719
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: got a nice suit on, and he's got a portfolio

720
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: of photos and off on pentax camera with no film

721
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: in it, hanging around his neck. And he says, you know,

722
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: come out to the car, I'll show you the portfolios.

723
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: And that's the last trip they ever made. So he's

724
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: got this honed to perfection. But you know, in the

725
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: conversations that we've had with people on the road, I mean,

726
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: we met people who had near misses. One woman went

727
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: to a mall the same day and she decided not

728
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: to go with him. So what does he do? It

729
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: doesn't deter him. He chooses the next girl. So with

730
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: every rejection, there was always some acceptance, just just to

731
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: go back to the manly one. You know, how did

732
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: he get bail? But we went to curl Cool recently

733
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: blazing hot summer's day, you know, waves pounding, to meet

734
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: a man who was the death sergeant the day that

735
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: Wilder was brought in. He is the guy that has

736
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 2: to process him, and he is the only guy that's

737
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: really been face to face, only policeman that's been face

738
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: to face, and he said he saw something in him.

739
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: He said, you know, I've seen his exact words. I've

740
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: seen psychos, I've seen psychopaths, and he was exactly that.

741
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: Now as he's processing him, Wilder, who does not want

742
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: to be kept in Australia because he fears he's going

743
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: to be exposed, is really petrified about that and being incarcerated.

744
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: Starts to look around as if he's going to escape,

745
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: and then does something even more extraordinary. He takes off

746
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: his gold Rollin's watch and attempts to bribe the sergeant.

747
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: All of this is new information. He hasn't spoken in

748
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: forty years.

749
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: Spoke at me, bail, he said, get me.

750
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: Bale is He pushed the watch over to him. The

751
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: sergeant Rob goes and says to him, he says, I

752
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 2: see something in you. You've done again a direct quote,

753
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: worse shit than this. And Wilder, he said, his expression

754
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: while he was calm, you could see the rage in

755
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: his eyes. And Wilder hated authority, figures male authority figures

756
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: Wilder just so like the eyes just flashed. Then he goes,

757
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: I think you've done murder.

758
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: You've a very bold thing to say to someone in a.

759
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 2: To Wilder, and Wilder just sort of like he said,

760
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: the change and his look and his attitude. His face

761
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: went red at the accusation, probably the first time he's

762
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: been directly accused. Now. Consequently, the cop wasn't bribed, He

763
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: didn't give him baw, he didn't recommend bao. Wilder got

764
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: baw because the court and his lawyer, you know, one

765
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: was you know, the court was stupid and the lawyer

766
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: was good. He gets away. But that encounter reveals again

767
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: wild as sort of like pathology, and you know, he

768
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: went on to do it again and an again.

769
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 3: That police sergeant is the only policeman anywhere. And if

770
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 3: you think that in America, it's still to this day

771
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: the biggest manhunt in American history, because Wilder went from

772
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: Florida all the way across to California, all the way

773
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 3: across the country, then up to almost the Canadian border.

774
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: It's the biggest manhunt ever. But the Manly Desk sergeant,

775
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 3: it's the only policeman who ever confronted him and accused

776
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: him of murder.

777
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: After the break the women who were yet to be

778
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: named as victims of Christopher Wilder, I want to tell

779
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: go back to Terry Theresa, tell her story a bit

780
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: because I think, you know, I want people to understand

781
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: what this man did to these women. So let's tell

782
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: Terry's story a bit. It's nineteen eighty four. He approaches

783
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: her in a mall, she goes with him. What does

784
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: he do? What does he do to her?

785
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: He drives to the Canavil Remember we've will see that.

786
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: He takes it to Canaveral Groves, which is about a

787
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 3: twenty minute drive away from the mall.

788
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: And he has her in the boot.

789
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 3: He has her in that, he has her in the boot,

790
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: and what we what we know now is that very

791
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 3: very close, I mean within a stone's throat of where

792
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: he takes her. Another body had been found only a

793
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 3: few months earlier that's now been connected to Wada, another

794
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 3: girl who disappeared off the same beach because he went

795
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 3: back to the same place as time and time again.

796
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: But he goes there and he gets bogged down in

797
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: soft sand and he's struggling. Then what does he do.

798
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: He rings a local tow truck company and the guy

799
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 3: says to him, I'm not going to be out there

800
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: for you know, a good hour or whatever. When he arrives,

801
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 3: of course, wildest problem is that he's got a girl

802
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: tied up in the boot. You know. Now, when Terry

803
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: is Terry's body is eventually found, they realized that he'd

804
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 3: attacked her and bashed her with a tire iron from

805
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: the car. I mean, it was it was brutal. He

806
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: didn't actually assault her, he just bash dashed he Now

807
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 3: had he done that before the tow truck driver arrived,

808
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 3: because he couldn't take the chance that she would, you know,

809
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: somehow raise the alarm trust up. We don't know that.

810
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 3: But it was just a brutal, brutal attack.

811
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: On her.

812
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: That's a relatively quick desk compared to what he had

813
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: some of his other victims.

814
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's similarities that we drove out to where

815
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: he took her, and we drove out to where he

816
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: got bogged. And what some of the similarities with the

817
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: poor girls that he took is that they'd be trussed

818
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: up and in the boot as she was in the

819
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: mood of the car. He would often, because he got

820
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: a thrill out of it, you know, had them in

821
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: the boot while it was in a garage station, put

822
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: in a couple of bucks worth of petrol, just so

823
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: that he could see people walking past. And inside he's

824
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: a girl sort of like, you know, breathing and struggling

825
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: for her life. But he would warn them. He would

826
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: tell some of the victims who were in the boot

827
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: that he had put a tape recorder next to them

828
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: and that if they said anything he would hear it,

829
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: and he heard it, he would do awful things to

830
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: them before killing them. So he left them with this

831
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 2: absolute terror while he was getting excited by the prospect

832
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 2: that they were in the boot and others were walking past.

833
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 3: At well, they were just tied up. He put tape

834
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 3: across their eyes as well in their mouth.

835
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's super glued.

836
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 3: Some didn't he Yeah, yeah, he didn't do that up

837
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 3: with Terry, but he did some of the.

838
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 2: But ban and he's right with Terry probably had other plans,

839
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: but those plans thwarted when he got bogged. I asked

840
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: Andy at the scene, actually, what do you think happened?

841
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: And then most likely scenario that you know, I think

842
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 2: you told me at the time is that he knew

843
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 2: that he couldn't run the risk of having his kidnap exposed,

844
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: so he had to kill her before the tow truck

845
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: driver came out. And the tie truck driver does come out,

846
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: and this guy as cool as a cucumber, thanks him,

847
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, gives them a tip, lets him go on

848
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: his way, and off you guys to commit new murders

849
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: before that is leaving Terry's body in another spot where

850
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: you know, notorious for alligators and all sorts of wildlife

851
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: in Florida, and that.

852
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: The hate and yeah, what what what?

853
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: What?

854
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 3: He did? What he liked to do terrible way phrasing it,

855
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: but he liked to prop his victims up against a

856
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: tree or or a boulder or something near near water

857
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 3: and leave them there to die on their own.

858
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: While they were still alive.

859
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,959
Speaker 3: While they were still alive, while they would bleed out.

860
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: He shot some of them, but he always stabbed them

861
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: as well, and it was generally the you know, they

862
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 3: would bleed out and die on their own.

863
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: What a horrifying man. Oh like, Because the other detail

864
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: we haven't touched on yet is he had a dungeon.

865
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: He created a torture dungeon in his house which he

866
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: took multiple women to.

867
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 3: That's really, really a fascinating I interviewed the detective. I

868
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier that he'd befriended the local homicide cop, and

869
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: that's this guy, that's Tom Naghbors, who had had no

870
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 3: very experienced police officer. Got no radar feelings from Wilder

871
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 3: at all. I had no idea. His wife was wild

872
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: as seamstress, and he was always popping in with his

873
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: racing suits to get the monogrammed. And Tom had come

874
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 3: home for his lunch and there'd be Wilder sitting chatting

875
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 3: to his wife. Tom, Tom, you never got any any

876
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 3: kind of feelings from it. When, of course the manhunt

877
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 3: begins looking for Wilder, Tom becomes one of the main

878
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 3: assets of the FBI because he knows him and his

879
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: wife because she monogrammed all his team shirts, could tell

880
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 3: them who was in his team and who his friends

881
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: and acquaintances are. So he becomes a When they then

882
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 3: did the search of Wilder's house, Tom took part in

883
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 3: the search, and as a joke, he says to one

884
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: of the FBI guys, I wonder if this is like

885
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 3: Scooby Doo, and if you knock on the wall, you'll

886
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 3: find a secret compartment. And he goes and on the

887
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: second knock.

888
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: Woof, there's a secret compartment.

889
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 3: The false wall in the bedroom opens and there's a

890
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 3: dungeon with all kinds of torture devices and whips and

891
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 3: manacles and chains and that kind of thing. Now, the

892
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 3: weird thing is that they then as they dig further

893
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 3: into wild As life, they find out that he's been

894
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: hiring models from modeling agencies. Young girls. You liked them,

895
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, eight no older than eighteen nineteen, and they

896
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 3: were coming out and he was photographing them in that

897
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 3: room as if they were part of a white slavery

898
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 3: kind of kind of route what on. And these girls

899
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: were doing it because he was paying good money, so

900
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 3: he was killing them. He wasn't killing those girls. I

901
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: think he was selling those photographs. But no, those girls

902
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: were doing it because they were getting paid handsomely. But

903
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: here's the thing. When the FBI forensics went through there,

904
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 3: they found all kinds of bloodstains. They found blood in

905
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: those in that room. But Wilder was meticulous and before

906
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 3: he left and went on the run, he went through

907
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: that house and he used a chemical which when it's

908
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: mixed with human blood, it affects it so that the

909
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 3: police then can't work out whether it was human blood

910
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 3: or animal blood.

911
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: So back to that cunning serial killer of our and

912
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: we know.

913
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: With two of the girls, the last two girls he

914
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: killed before he went on the run, who were both models,

915
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 3: you know, Rosario Gonzales and Beth.

916
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: Kenyan, which was a former girlfriend.

917
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 3: Former girlfriend. Well, in Beth's case, when he took her

918
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: the day he took her, he took her back to

919
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 3: that house and we think that's where he attacked and

920
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 3: he killed her because later the FBI spoke to some

921
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 3: of his workmen because he had a construction company and

922
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 3: they'd had to go in the day after she had

923
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 3: she had gone missing, and there was a hole in

924
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 3: a plate glass window at the height that she would

925
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: have been as if the head had been thrown against it.

926
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 3: And when the workmen went to go into the the

927
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 3: pool's side area bathroom if you're like changing room, he

928
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: said no, no, no, no, no, you can't go anywhere else,

929
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 3: but you can't go in there. Then when they interviewed

930
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: the cleaner, she says, oh, it was all very strange.

931
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: The shower curtain was missing from that room and then

932
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: suddenly there's a new one there. So the theory is

933
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 3: that he killed her, he wrapped her in the shower curtain,

934
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: and when the workman had corrected all the you know,

935
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: all the all the damage and all the glass and everything,

936
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 3: he then disposed of it.

937
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, the workmen, he got to clean up the crime

938
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 2: st Wow.

939
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: You know again that's because their bodies, Rosario and Death

940
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: have never been found.

941
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: Never been found.

942
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: So when does he go on the run in all

943
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: of this, Because we've talked about of the police not

944
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: really doing their bit. He goes on this rampage, he

945
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: manages to kill a lot of women before he's even

946
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: a wanted man. Yeah, yeah, Well, how do they eventually

947
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: catch up, Well.

948
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 2: They don't catch up for a very long time because

949
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 2: partly because Zany said, you know that the commuter computer

950
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 2: and digital communications are nothing like that today. Now you

951
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 2: can trace the credit card in like a nanosecond. But

952
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: there are a few things in his favor. One was

953
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 2: the initial reluctance of the police to believe the victims'

954
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 2: families in Rosario and Beth that this guy needed to

955
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: be watched, needed to be surveilled, and needed to be

956
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: brought in. He'd breach probation, all sorts of all sorts

957
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 2: of issues that they did not address. So he's off.

958
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: He takes Linda Groeber and she escapes, so that brings

959
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: the FBI victim survivor. Yeah, yeah, and then he grows

960
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: from Georgia and then he's just off. But the other

961
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 2: thing that is against them is that he's a racing card,

962
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: so they don't they don't reckon that he's going to

963
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,720
Speaker 2: travel that far at first, and he's hundreds of miles

964
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: before they even know where he was last at. So

965
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 2: he's an a racing car. And then he's a racing

966
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: car driver, driving like a racing car driver, and then

967
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 2: he just keeps swapping cars, so he kills one victim

968
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 2: Mindy's mum, Terry in Texas, for her car. He swaps

969
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 2: the car, and previously he'd swapped the plates on the

970
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 2: car he was using. So he keeps going further and

971
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 2: further and further right across the California and they have

972
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: no idea. They're just always one or two steps behind. Meantime,

973
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 2: while this is going on, and he's driving long distances,

974
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: and you know he's becoming known, and his faces are

975
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: he's still calmly going to shopping malls or beaches of whatever,

976
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: you know, picking up girls using the same pattern. Then

977
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: he'll take them to a motel room, he'll do the

978
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 2: sick stuff to them and kill them and move on.

979
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: And he kept doing it for days and days.

980
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: Oh, I guess if he's gotten away with it for

981
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: this line, Well, that's.

982
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 3: Right, but you know, to go back to the start,

983
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 3: and you say, look, before he went on the on

984
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 3: the on the run, what was happening with those two

985
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 3: girls with the Rosario and Beth. In Beth's case, her

986
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 3: family brought in a private investigator, and the private investigator

987
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 3: in forty eight hours, solved the case. Great Bloke was

988
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 3: run the FBI in Miami for twenty odd years for

989
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 3: j Edghoover, so he was well connected. He identified Wilder,

990
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 3: had a witness who identified Wilder with her, and then

991
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 3: did something which is not he shouldn't have done, but

992
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 3: there are reasons why he did it. He then confronts

993
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 3: Wilder over the phone. So that's something he's interfering in

994
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 3: a police investigation. Yaddi, yadder. But the police had done nothing.

995
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: And this is a problem that will become apparent in

996
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,439
Speaker 3: every single case where it happens. There was this atude

997
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 3: at the time. You had the old or someone's going

998
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 3: to be missing for forty eight hours before, but these

999
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 3: were young girls, and the attitude was almost, oh, these

1000
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 3: are pretty young girls. They've run off with a boyfriend.

1001
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 2: Or their mom or whatever. Nobody was listening to them.

1002
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 2: They're just young girls, you know. And when the parents

1003
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: come in or would you know, you know they've run away,

1004
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: you're ignoring meal.

1005
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: There was a ten day window there with when Whittaker

1006
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: went to the police. No get it, separate police departments again.

1007
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 3: So for both cases where he was pleading with them,

1008
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: and the two families were pleading with them, pick this

1009
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: guy up, pick him up, and they had every reason

1010
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 3: to pick him up because he was on probation. He

1011
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 3: committed a sexual assault five years previously, and he as

1012
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: part of his sentence, not that it was much of

1013
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 3: a sentence. He never got sent to jail, but his

1014
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 3: sentence was that for five years he had to go

1015
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 3: and see sex therapist Gingerbush twice a week.

1016
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: There are so many instances where this guy could have

1017
00:54:59,600 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: made this.

1018
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 3: That was fantastic for him because he was relaying to her,

1019
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 3: as Mark says, all his fantasies.

1020
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: He was probably really enjoying that, but.

1021
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 3: It was reality he was enjoying that. Yeah, just unbelievable.

1022
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: He kind of dies by accident, doesn't he. Yeah, yeah,

1023
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: well the hands of a cop.

1024
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 3: Look, I've to and throwed on this. I've now come

1025
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: round to the conclusion that he probably was trying to

1026
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 3: kill himself. He had a pathological fear of being locked up.

1027
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 3: He'd spent a few weeks in a kind of juvenile

1028
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 3: detention center and something happened to him in there. I

1029
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 3: have no idea what he never explained to anybody, left

1030
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 3: him with a terror, left him with a terror of

1031
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 3: being locked up.

1032
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1033
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: Fast forward when he was arrested in Manly for those

1034
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 3: two girls and was at his committal hearing and he

1035
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 3: got the bail. Why was he so keen on getting

1036
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 3: that bail? And we believe, I'm absolutely convinced that in

1037
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 3: the court that day was one young group and that

1038
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 3: was Michael Robotham, who's the international crime writer today. He

1039
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 3: was a young cub reporter and Wilder saw him and

1040
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 3: their eyes locked, and Wilder knew that when it came

1041
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 3: to his actual trial, it would get a lot of coverage.

1042
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 3: And what was the big secret. The big secret was

1043
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 3: somebody would go hang on, that's the guy, an old

1044
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 3: detective who was originally on the case or something would

1045
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 3: point at wander Beach. So he couldn't afford to come

1046
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 3: back because if he was convicted of anything, there's no

1047
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: way he would have been allowed back in America with

1048
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 3: a criminal record. So he was never ever going to return.

1049
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 2: But just going back to his death on the border there,

1050
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: and Andre's right, there's a sort of dispute as to

1051
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 2: whether he died accidentally a bullet that he was aiming

1052
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: at the cop hit him, or whether he was trying

1053
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: to kill himself and hit the cop. But it ends

1054
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: with his death.

1055
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 3: Well getting to his death, so his death. What happens is,

1056
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 3: so we're in this small town in New Hampshire. He's only,

1057
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: you know, a fifty minute drive away from the border

1058
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 3: and then freedom. When he've got fifteen hundred FBI agents

1059
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 3: working full time on trying to find him, hundreds of

1060
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 3: police officers across six states looking for him. They can't

1061
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 3: find him. Two state troopers in an unmarked car pull

1062
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 3: up at traffic lights and there's a petrol station and

1063
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 3: service station there and they see this guy, and then

1064
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 3: they see the car and they think that didn't we

1065
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 3: get an all points bulleting about that a bit earlier.

1066
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 3: Wilder sees them and makes a run for his car.

1067
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 3: He's just coming out from paying for his gas. He

1068
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 3: makes a run for the car. The driver, the police officer,

1069
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 3: the state trooper jumps out and runs after him, and

1070
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: Wilder runs round his car and then throws himself on

1071
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 3: the seats and he's trying to get something from under

1072
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 3: the seat, and in a split second, the state trooper

1073
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 3: goes he's reaching for a gun, so he jumps on

1074
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 3: top of him across the front seats of the car

1075
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 3: and gets him in a bear hug. Wilder gets the gun,

1076
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 3: turns it round and shoots, shoots through himself, and the

1077
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 3: bullet goes into the State trooper, and the state trooper

1078
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 3: then pulls away and stands up, and his colleague comes round,

1079
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: and it's several seconds later, and then there's a second shot.

1080
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 3: Wilder shoots himself a second time after the State troopers

1081
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 3: left him. So so it looks like he killed himself. Yeah,

1082
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 3: whether the first shot was to but I think that

1083
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 3: either way, he wasn't going to be taken alive.

1084
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: Have you spoken to the families about whether they would

1085
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: have preferred he lived and see justice or are they

1086
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: happy he's did?

1087
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 3: You know?

1088
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: Mark?

1089
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 3: Mark's the best at explaining this, but quite a few

1090
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 3: of them, remarkably, including Linda and including Mindy whose mum

1091
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 3: was murdered when she was four years of age, they

1092
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 3: forgive him.

1093
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 2: What Yeah, there is that. I'm going to put a cavit.

1094
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put a cavi on. They don't excuse him.

1095
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: I think the issue there is Linda, Linda and a

1096
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 2: lot of the women that were spoken to who either

1097
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 2: avoided it somewhat fortuitously because the raidar was on, or

1098
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 2: you know, and or escaped as in Linda's case, they

1099
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: recognized in Wilder, probably more preciently than the police, that

1100
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: there was a screwlers, there was something in his background

1101
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: that had turned him into this killer, all of which,

1102
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 2: if you look at his background, is true. You know,

1103
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 2: things happened in his childhood that irrevocably turned him into

1104
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: a serial killer. Not excuse, just an explanation. And they

1105
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: had that sense that there was something wrong, and they

1106
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, and so they see in one sense, if

1107
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 2: I put it this way, it's probably the wrong expression.

1108
00:59:52,880 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: They see the bigger picture. And in terms of his death, look,

1109
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit mixed in amongst the people.

1110
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 2: Some felt, thank god he's off the streets. He deserved it,

1111
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: and all of that is understandable. Others think they were cheated.

1112
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 2: You know, they want to know what was my mum's

1113
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: last words? What did she say to you?

1114
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, knowing the kind of guy he is, I

1115
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: don't think we would have got I.

1116
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: Mean that's the bit, sorry, that's the bit that probably

1117
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: checks me out the most, you know, getting that last

1118
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 2: sense of who who your mum was?

1119
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he a lot of these, a lot

1120
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 3: of the families of girls who whose daughters and wives

1121
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 3: or whatever haven't been found. I mean, that's the real

1122
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 3: key to this. You know, that's why you would have

1123
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 3: wanted while to have been taken alive and questioned, because

1124
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 3: we may have found out some answers there and we

1125
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 3: never will. No, I don't think.

1126
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: That's why you're doing this, right, Mark, You've gotten really emotional.

1127
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 3: Talking about these we live.

1128
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,479
Speaker 1: That's why you're doing it to tell these when we are.

1129
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 2: Doing it, we do. We do have a passion for it.

1130
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: We're kind of robust blokes. We've seen a lot and

1131
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: we've experienced a lot in our lives and you know,

1132
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: we're fairly resilient characters. And you know, I think about it.

1133
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 2: I think, and he does too. There are moments when

1134
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 2: we listen back to our stories months after and like,

1135
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 2: you know, there's bits we will look away because we

1136
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: don't want to sort of show that you know, it's

1137
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: affecting us. But why because you know these are decent people.

1138
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: We going to people's homes and we meet people who

1139
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: are lovely, like the two brothers that are on this

1140
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,919
Speaker 2: week's episode who hadn't spoken for forty years. We turn

1141
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 2: up with three hours late because the plane was delayed

1142
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: by thunderstorms. We bring them bud Wiser, which they hate.

1143
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 2: You know, they laugh, They have dinner for us. They

1144
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 2: open a very nice bottle of wine and they sit

1145
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: down and you know, we're like best friends. And then

1146
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: we're talking about the loss of you know, the person

1147
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 2: they of most. So fuck, I don't know why this

1148
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 2: is doing this to me. But the point here is

1149
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: that we need to honor that.

1150
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and honor their stories. Yeah, well you're very much

1151
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: doing that. And I can see that you're very much

1152
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,439
Speaker 1: still deep in this investigation. So I'm guessing there's more

1153
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: more women's stories to come.

1154
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's true, and it's it's you know, it's

1155
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 2: really important. We made a vow at the beginning that

1156
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 2: we'd let people tell their stories. We'd let them speak,

1157
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 2: you know, we wouldn't indceede in the in the construction

1158
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 2: of the stories in a way that sort of what

1159
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 2: was disrespectful, and we kind of, you know, in answer

1160
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 2: to the question about whether it's right to go into

1161
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 2: these lives, it's one hundred percent right because it's what

1162
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 2: they want, you know, it's the recognition, so long as

1163
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: it's done with some honesty and sort of in a

1164
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 2: way that brings clarity, you know, we will continue to

1165
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: pursue on their behalf.

1166
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 3: And the last thing I'd say, the other thing that's

1167
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 3: become apparent to us, and it shocks me, is that

1168
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: we've we've discovered just how poor and the lack of

1169
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 3: services for women who've gone through an experience like this

1170
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: or been the victims of violent crime. We decided pretty

1171
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 3: early on from after hearing some of these families, that

1172
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 3: we wanted to support some of these organizations, particularly the

1173
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 3: non for profit ones. You know, we found it really

1174
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 3: really hard to find any So many of them are

1175
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 3: having their funding cut at the moment, and they're moving

1176
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 3: to online only. You know, they're not actually providing face

1177
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 3: to face. You think, in a country the size of America,

1178
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 3: the wealth of America, these things would be all over

1179
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 3: the place. They're not. One we've found, and she's the

1180
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 3: subject of next week's episode. I think, Isn't she?

1181
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 2: Man was a girl who Christian Christine.

1182
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 3: Christine when she was eleven years of air with her

1183
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 3: ten year old sister, they were abducted at gunpoint by

1184
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 3: Wilder in the main street in Boyton Beach. He just

1185
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 3: doesn't stop getting twenty miles away and raped eleven. Yeah,

1186
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: she's look. Wow.

1187
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 2: Her interview is amazing. She is well, perhaps one of

1188
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 2: the most courageous women we're spoken to. And there's a

1189
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 2: whole new area that comes in here because there was

1190
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 2: information that was denied to her for thirty years that

1191
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 2: would have placed Wilder in the frame much earlier. But

1192
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 2: the thing about her is that she's resolved. Oh this

1193
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: is the expression she used. It's the very last expression

1194
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: where we end the interview, she says, you know, I

1195
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 2: want to make it so that other women don't go

1196
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: through the pain and the trauma that I've gone through.

1197
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: And so she set up a nonprofit to do that

1198
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 2: and provide information, support, counseling, therapy, her own experience to

1199
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 2: other women to access. But the expression that she users

1200
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 2: is that she wants to turn pain into purpose.

1201
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: Thank you to Mark and Andy for joining us on

1202
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: this episode. You can find a link to their podcast

1203
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: Catching Evil in our show notes. If you want to

1204
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: see visuals from this episode, head over to our Instagram

1205
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: page at True Crime Conversations, and for in depth case explainers,

1206
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 1: follow us on TikTok under the same name. True Crime

1207
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Jemma bath Our senior producer

1208
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: is Tarlie Blackman, the group executive producer is Alaria Brophy,

1209
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: and there's been audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so

1210
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another

1211
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: true crime conversation