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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud, what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the eighteenth of September. I'm Holly Waynwright. Sorry

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Speaker 2: I forgot that part. I'm Holly Wayne Right, I'm and.

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Speaker 3: I'm jeffew Stevens.

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Speaker 1: I got me who I.

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Speaker 2: Was for a moment. It's not surprising brain was wondering.

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Speaker 2: I'm back in the room and on the show. Today.

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Speaker 2: Instagram is finally doing something about teenagers on its app,

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Speaker 2: but others think this is just a parental cop out.

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Speaker 2: We unpack Also, are you terrified of breaking a streak?

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Speaker 2: When does a self improvement have it become an addiction?

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Speaker 2: And what are hours? And a very famous Australian man

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Speaker 2: is in complete public free fall?

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Speaker 1: Is it time to look away?

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Speaker 2: But for us Jesse steven.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, as a close personal friend

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Speaker 3: of both Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez, I am at

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Speaker 3: my wit tend Matt Damon and I we've been on

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Speaker 3: the phone.

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Speaker 2: I bet you have.

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Speaker 3: We have because where we are in the same boat.

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Speaker 2: The benefit support what'sapp groups must be going.

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Speaker 1: There's Ben again.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's what we call our group.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, not Ben again.

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Speaker 3: We event and we rage. And this is because on Saturday,

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Speaker 3: Ben and Jen were pictured having brunch together with afflex

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Speaker 3: two kids and Lopez's twins, and apparently the reports are

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Speaker 3: that they were kissing and Affleck couldn't keep his hands

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Speaker 3: off Lopez.

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Speaker 1: I raise reports denied, Well, there was one report that

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Speaker 1: said that, and then the other reports, plus some of

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Speaker 1: the photos showed him what looked to be shouting at

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Speaker 1: her baldy language was awful.

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Speaker 3: I don't ah, but some of the ones I saw

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Speaker 3: they were very very close.

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Speaker 1: They arrived together in a car. I don't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I don't know why they would do the

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Speaker 1: pat walk and go to I think it was such

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Speaker 1: a famous so where they know they are going to be.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps it was a pet walk, right, So what are

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Speaker 1: they trying to achieve with a pet walk? They don't

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Speaker 1: need to be in the media more. I guess if

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Speaker 1: they want to send a message, stop writing. It's just

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Speaker 1: started a whole new cycle.

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Speaker 3: Ye pressure, and she had her engagement ring on her

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Speaker 3: pinky finger.

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Speaker 2: Do you think they're getting back together?

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think that this helped with the rumors

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Speaker 3: because's a friend.

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Speaker 2: I'm concerned the divorce announcement, and then can't keep our

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Speaker 2: hands off each other. Maybe whatever.

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Speaker 1: I'm so tired, I know, right, it's like, really, what.

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Speaker 3: Do I say to Jen?

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Speaker 2: What do I say? You say, No, that man is

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Speaker 2: not going to change. That's what you say. He's not

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Speaker 2: going to change. You think he's going to change, He's

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Speaker 2: not going to change. Just keep moving forward.

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Speaker 1: What Matt Damon was trying to tell her.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I feel as though their kids are close, and

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Speaker 3: what I saw was two people who want what is

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Speaker 3: best for their kids. And in the reports it said,

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Speaker 3: you know, they want to make sure their kids are

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Speaker 3: still hanging out. The big question is, of course, couldn't

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Speaker 3: they hang out in the backyard in a private location.

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Speaker 1: Well, the kids are not little kids now. The kids

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Speaker 1: do hang out together, I think. But also it is

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Speaker 1: genuinely really tricky when you've got a blended family and

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Speaker 1: the two parents bring children into their relationship. I've seen

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Speaker 1: this play out a number of times, and the kids

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Speaker 1: become really close to their step siblings and then they

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Speaker 1: just part ways, and it's not like when you know

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Speaker 1: two parents and their biological children. If the two parents split,

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Speaker 1: the biological children will see both and they'll probably the

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Speaker 1: kids will stay together and will go between parents. But

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Speaker 1: when it's everyone came with their own children, they kind

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Speaker 1: of leave with their own children, and then the children

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Speaker 1: don't see the other parents and relationship siblings, Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: is that relationship with your former stepfather and your former

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Speaker 1: step siblings. It's really tricky.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm glad you're seeing so much real life

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Speaker 2: in the Benefit saga. I'm just more like past the popcorn.

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Speaker 4: They're an automatic set of protections for teens that try

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Speaker 4: and proactively address the top concerns that we've heard from

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Speaker 4: parents about teens online, things like who can contact them,

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Speaker 4: what content they see, and how much time they spend

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Speaker 4: on their device.

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Speaker 1: Instagram's about to change dramatically for teenagers is the breaking news,

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Speaker 1: and they are not going to be thrilled. But anyone

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Speaker 1: losing sleep over how much sleep teens are losing because

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Speaker 1: of incessant Instagram notifications and the fact that social media

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Speaker 1: has been proven to cause major harm to kids and teens, well,

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Speaker 1: it is a good day for you. You might remember

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Speaker 1: last week we spoke about how the government announced that

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Speaker 1: they would be looking at the banning of kids from

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Speaker 1: using social media.

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Speaker 2: We're looking at the range between fourteen and sixteen.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons why we're having a trial,

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Speaker 1: and what we're looking at is how you deliver it.

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Speaker 2: This is a global issue.

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Speaker 1: Well since that conversation in the last twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: Instagram has tried to make a preemptive move to avoid

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Speaker 1: government regulation. Not just in Australia, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: governments are sort of rumbling around the world about this.

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Speaker 1: And Instagram, owned of course by Meta, who own Facebook,

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Speaker 1: They've announced changes of their own. And the big change

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Speaker 1: is that teen accounts are going to be introduced for

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Speaker 1: anyone under eighteen. You're not meant to be on Instagram

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Speaker 1: anyway under thirteen, So if you're a teenager, starting with Australia,

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Speaker 1: the UK, the US and Canada and then rolling out

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Speaker 1: for the rest of the world, here are the key changes.

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Speaker 1: All teen accounts will be set to private as a default.

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Speaker 1: It's going to start happening now. So if you teenage,

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Speaker 1: or if a teenage already has an account, presuming that

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Speaker 1: they entered their correct air state, which they probably didn't.

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Speaker 1: It will be set to private. Followers who the user

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Speaker 1: has not accepted, cannot see their content are interact with them.

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Speaker 1: That's what private means. Teenage users will automatically be placed

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Speaker 1: on a more restrictive setting for sensitive content, such as

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Speaker 1: material promoting cosmetic procedures and sexually explicit or violent content.

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Speaker 1: No thought, maybe that might have been happening before, seems not.

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Speaker 1: An anti bullying feature will filter out offensive words or

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Speaker 1: phrases in comments and DM requests, which should go swimmingly

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Speaker 1: given that the words that teenagers use aren't even understood

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Speaker 1: by anyone. They'll also get a notification which they can ignore,

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Speaker 1: to tell them to leave the app after sixty minutes.

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Speaker 2: You stay very cynical about it. I was sitting there

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Speaker 2: going that sounds good. That sounds good.

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Speaker 1: Have you met a teenager? The interesting one also is

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Speaker 1: that sleep mode will be automatically turned on for all

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Speaker 1: teen accounts between ten pm and seven am, which means

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Speaker 1: that they'll get no notifications. Now, if you're sixteen or seventeen,

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Speaker 1: you can opt out of all of those settings, but

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Speaker 1: if you're fifteen or younger you'll need a parent or

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Speaker 1: guardian's permission to do so, or your teenager will just

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Speaker 1: get your phone and pretend to be you an opt

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Speaker 1: out on your behalf.

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Speaker 3: I hear your cynicism. Yeah, but haven't we been yelling

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Speaker 3: at metas to do something? And now Meta's done something

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Speaker 3: and everyone's going while the teenagers can just override it.

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Speaker 1: This is very different to the fact that they just

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be on social media. So this is designed to

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Speaker 1: plicate governments and parents and make everyone think, oh, they're

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Speaker 1: being responsible, they're doing something. Therefore, it takes all the

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Speaker 1: wind out of the sales of a total ban, right,

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Speaker 1: which is what governments have been talking about, which we

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Speaker 1: know is far better for the kids.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but that's going to take so much time an

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Speaker 2: actual legal ban in different territories around the world. And

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Speaker 2: it's interesting you were saying how Australia is not the

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Speaker 2: only one. It's not. But we discussed last week the

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Speaker 2: social media restrictions that our government are discussing putting in

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Speaker 2: are amongst the harshest in the world, and they're talking

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Speaker 2: about them in America like everybody's talking about them.

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Speaker 1: So I but that's why this is happening whole No

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Speaker 1: I get that.

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Speaker 2: I don't want no, no, But my point is it's

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Speaker 2: going to take a really long time, so something's better

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Speaker 2: than nothing. From my perspective.

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Speaker 1: It won't necessarily take a really long time because they

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Speaker 1: have bipartisan support for this legislation, so to be lobbied

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Speaker 1: about the government, they're.

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Speaker 2: Going to be lobbied and lobbied and lobbied by these

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Speaker 2: massive like if Australia manages to do it. Nowhere else

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Speaker 2: has managed to do it yet, So if Australia manages

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Speaker 2: to do it, great, But my perspective is I know

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Speaker 2: why they're doing it, and it is cynical. They're trying

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Speaker 2: to divert some of this heat. But something is better

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Speaker 2: than nothing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a bit of a defeatist attitude. Frankly.

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Speaker 1: So parents are also going to have some new features

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Speaker 1: that they can use, like supervision features. None of these

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Speaker 1: features parents will understand how to use. And I am one,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very but.

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Speaker 2: This sounds simpler than the other things a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty complicated. Have you ever tried to get your

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Speaker 1: kids phone and try to make it like it's really hard?

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent yes, But and this is exactly why

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Speaker 2: they've done it so that people like me who are

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Speaker 2: umming and ring about whether or not my teenagers should

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Speaker 2: be on Instagram. But this sounds like a really simple

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Speaker 2: way for me to be at because I cannot do

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Speaker 2: all that parental control stuff. I know I should, and

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Speaker 2: I google and I watch YouTube videos about how to

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Speaker 2: do it. I find it really confusing soda most parents.

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Speaker 2: If I can just from the get go set them

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Speaker 2: up with an account that is all these things are

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Speaker 2: built into it, that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: But what are they actually so their account won't be

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Speaker 1: public like it sounds like a lot, but it's.

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Speaker 2: Ten o'clock to get off or like this, which reminder

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Speaker 2: I'm like, you need to kick him off.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't mean you can't look at it. I just won't

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Speaker 1: get push notifications. But you know who also isn't happy.

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Speaker 1: Evan Spiegel, our friendly billionaire husband of Miranda Kerr. He's

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Speaker 1: the boss of Snapchat. And what's interesting about this is

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Speaker 1: that Instagram is not the main game for teenagers and

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Speaker 1: Facebook doesn't even exist for them. That's something that their

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Speaker 1: grandparents use. They are all on Snapchat and TikTok, and

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Speaker 1: the bosses of those social platforms do not agree with

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Speaker 1: the Instagram approach, and the loudest pushback has come from

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Speaker 1: Evan Spiegel. He's the boss of Snapchat and he's the

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Speaker 1: father of their three children, who are too young to

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Speaker 1: have phones conveniently, and he says, there's a teenager in

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Speaker 1: it's the all Under Bloom one. I think, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the Orlando Bloom one. He's fourteen. So he says

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Speaker 1: he weighed on not about the Instagram band, but he

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Speaker 1: weighed into the idea of Australia's planned social media age band,

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Speaker 1: and funnily enough, he's not in favor of Funny that.

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Speaker 1: He says, parents have already got these tools today. We

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Speaker 1: use the iOS level controls and screen time at our

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Speaker 1: house to limit what our teen who's fourteen, what he's

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Speaker 1: able to use. We have Family Center as well inside

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Speaker 1: of Snapchat that allows parents to monitor their teens activity

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Speaker 1: on Snapchat and put in place more stringent content controls

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Speaker 1: and things like that. He clearly has not spent much

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Speaker 1: time with his fourteen year old, and maybe he has

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Speaker 1: because he's the boss of Snapchat, so he understands how

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Speaker 1: to work it. Yeah. I have never been more puzzled.

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Speaker 1: I tried to get on Snapchat many years ago, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of people did, because I like to try

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Speaker 1: and understand social platforms from the inside, because I'm always

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Speaker 1: a believer. If you don't know the game, you can't

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Speaker 1: make the rules. It is so confusing. It felt like

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Speaker 1: wandering around in the dark. I didn't understand it. And

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Speaker 1: this is where kids are doing all their communicating. So

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Speaker 1: we might use group techs, WhatsApp groups, they do all

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Speaker 1: of it on Snapchat. So Snapchat is the big game,

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Speaker 1: and the big insidious thing that Snapchat has that's so

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Speaker 1: I think so awful for teens is the snap maps,

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Speaker 1: so you can see where all your friends all are

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Speaker 1: at all times, and that means that you can see

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Speaker 1: when everybody's at a party or when everybody's at some

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Speaker 1: house and you haven't been invited.

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Speaker 3: Evan says that Snapchat's really good for well being though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah so, and he actually says that they're not even

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Speaker 2: really a social media platform, so I shouldn't really be

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Speaker 2: included in these exactly.

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Speaker 1: So puts it on to parents. He said, we've really

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Speaker 1: done a lot to empower parents to make the right

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Speaker 1: choices for their teenagers. And again, all those tools already

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Speaker 1: exist for parents who would rather restrict the use of

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Speaker 1: certain naps for their teens, would we I'd rather they

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Speaker 1: just be banned.

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Speaker 3: So, as you say, of course he's going to say that,

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Speaker 3: I was looking at the data. So most Snapchat users

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Speaker 3: are between the ages of thirteen and thirty four. One

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Speaker 3: in five are between thirteen and seventeen.

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Speaker 1: I think the only one that's thirty four is Evans

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Speaker 1: is going to say, yeah, one year old is on Snapchat.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I know millions are under the age of twelve.

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Speaker 3: So of course it is for little little kids. And

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Speaker 3: as you say, it's so rich for a tech founded

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Speaker 3: to tell us about the parental controls. We work in

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Speaker 3: digital media. We're pretty tech savy. I've never heard of

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Speaker 3: the iOS level controls, what the family center something something.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, Like,

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Speaker 3: you are so literate in this in a way that

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Speaker 3: parents aren't. And on the Instagram thing, I know that

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Speaker 3: you were saying they're doing this, you know, to appease governments,

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Speaker 3: and there's been this pushback. On the one hand, I'm

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Speaker 3: glad that they've done something, and I really I want

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Speaker 3: to pay that the cynic in me is going this

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Speaker 3: is a move because they're looking at potentially losing millions

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Speaker 3: and millions of users.

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Speaker 1: And Adam Assiri said that, he said, it's bad for business,

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Speaker 1: but we'll struggle through.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no, this is good. This is a

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Speaker 3: good for business move because the options are because they

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Speaker 3: didn't have any of these controls. The Jonathan Heights of

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Speaker 3: the world, who's written that very famous book about the

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Speaker 3: Anxious Generation, He's spoken a lot about Instagram and mental

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Speaker 3: health rates declining with the introduction of Instagram and Snapchat

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Speaker 3: and TikTok. The push has been get them off, that's

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Speaker 3: the big argument. In fact, parental controls aren't what they're saying.

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Speaker 3: They're saying get them off. So they're clearly sitting in

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Speaker 3: board meetings going, well, we can't lose them all together.

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Speaker 3: We're going to have to make some like this is

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Speaker 3: a new product, essentially to tailor it specifically to a

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Speaker 3: generation that they can't afford to lose. Like I don't

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Speaker 3: think that this is about giving anything.

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Speaker 1: The sound you can hear are parents heaving a big

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Speaker 1: sigh at the thought of the mental load of having

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Speaker 1: to navigate all of this new stuff and what I

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Speaker 1: struggle with well, I don't struggle with But my belief

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Speaker 1: is that we agree as a society that there are

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Speaker 1: certain things that are bad and there are certain things

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Speaker 1: that we need to do to protect everyone in our community.

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Speaker 1: For example, seat belts. We don't just say, oh, seat

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Speaker 1: belts are there, you can use them. We've installed them

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Speaker 1: if you want to. But it's up to parents to

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Speaker 1: decide whether kids use a seat belt or not. There

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Speaker 1: are really strict rules around that. Same with alcohol, with vaping,

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Speaker 1: all of these things that we understand. The driving age,

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Speaker 1: it's not like parents should be able to decide when

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Speaker 1: the kids are able to drive or smoke or drink.

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Speaker 2: I'm with you on that.

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Speaker 3: But then what Meta is doing. What I appreciate about

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Speaker 3: what they're doing is about how automatic it is, like

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Speaker 3: is happening overnight. It's not that you need to go

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Speaker 3: home tonight. It's not any parent. It doesn't need to

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Speaker 3: go and press one hundred buttons. That's going to happen automatically.

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Speaker 3: I also think this thing where and it's interesting the

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Speaker 3: head of Instagram came out and he was saying he's

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Speaker 3: not even going to talk about all the tools they're

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Speaker 3: going to use to ensure that teenagers are protected because

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Speaker 3: we don't want to give teens an instruction manual. Because

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Speaker 3: I find this thing about, well, they're just going to

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Speaker 3: use a new VPN. We'll talk about this last week.

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Speaker 3: It's like, well they are.

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Speaker 2: Now, Well, no, they are, though. Look I'm at the

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Speaker 2: absolute coal face of this. Right. My fourteen year old

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Speaker 2: daughter uses social media and I have not yet bought

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Speaker 2: a phone for my twelve year old son, but he

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Speaker 2: will get one in January because he's gone to high school.

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Speaker 2: And that, like, it's really interesting. The Jonathan hypebook that

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Speaker 2: you mentioned before, when we look back at this time

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Speaker 2: of realignment about social media and kids and teens, that

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Speaker 2: was an absolute cut through pivotal change. It spoke to

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Speaker 2: the right people in the right voices. It was massively influential,

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Speaker 2: and it has Remember when we first saw that and

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Speaker 2: we talked about it on the show, that big piece

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Speaker 2: that was about in New York Times, and I said,

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Speaker 2: it's making me feel sick, and we discussed it. That

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Speaker 2: is going to be one of the big temp pole

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Speaker 2: moments where we all went, Oh, the thing is, as

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Speaker 2: I think about, right, I'm going to buy my son

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Speaker 2: a phone for high school, and I get a chance

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Speaker 2: to do over right what I did with my teenager.

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Speaker 2: With all this new information that has come out, particularly

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Speaker 2: in the past twelve months, what am I going to

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Speaker 2: do differently? Probably nothing, is the God's honest truth, right,

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Speaker 2: of course I will. I'm more aware, I've read the things.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, the same social pressures are

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Speaker 2: going to be there, particularly for a kid who might

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Speaker 2: be a little quirky, a little different. I'll have some

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Speaker 2: issue around social relationships. The same issues are going to

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Speaker 2: be there that everybody else is on it, everybody else

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Speaker 2: is doing it. If I'm not on that, I can't

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Speaker 2: talk to blah blah blah. So I actually appreciate, even

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Speaker 2: though I am smart woman and I can see absolutely

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Speaker 2: the cynicism with which these changes are being made. You're

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent right Mia and Jesse about that. They're

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Speaker 2: panicking about what they're about to lose, and so they're

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Speaker 2: going how can we mitigate? How can we mitigate? I

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Speaker 2: appreciate anything that is going to make it really simple

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Speaker 2: for me?

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Speaker 1: So which parts do you think?

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Speaker 2: So I think of making those changes on Instagram automatic

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Speaker 2: and immediate, but is really mean which.

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Speaker 1: Changes in particular do you think are going to help.

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Speaker 2: The fact that all I have to do is make

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Speaker 2: my daughter's account. If I give it to her a

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Speaker 2: teen account, and it's automatically private, and it's automatically going

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Speaker 2: to have various restrictions on it, on content that's served

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Speaker 2: to her. That's good. It's better than not. It's not perfect,

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Speaker 2: but it's good.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be better if she wasn't on it?

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Speaker 2: Well, she's not on it, and if I decide to

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Speaker 2: do it, it's such a sort of at the moment

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Speaker 2: still a very ideological Wouldn't it just be great if

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Speaker 2: no kids had phones? Wouldn't it just be great if

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Speaker 2: no kids looked at social That's not the world I

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Speaker 2: live in. I might live in that if I was

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Speaker 2: a very different kind of person with a very different

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Speaker 2: kind of life. But actually technology plays quite a big

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Speaker 2: part in my life, of my kids' lives, and it's

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Speaker 2: going to for the rest of their lives. So but

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Speaker 2: what I'm not a fan of the luod eye.

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Speaker 1: What we can see, what Instagram have shown us is

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Speaker 1: that they can identify all the kids' accounts right everyone

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Speaker 1: under eighteen or under sixteen, or under whatever aage, and

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Speaker 1: they can apply restrictions so what they could do is say,

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Speaker 1: no child under let's just say sixteen needs to be

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Speaker 1: on Instagram between ten pm and six a three. So

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Speaker 1: you don't just get notifications like do you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? That's why when you actually drill into what

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Speaker 1: they're doing and what they could clearly do but aren't doing.

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Speaker 2: And I have one hundred percent agree with that, and

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Speaker 2: I also I am a fan of the age gating

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Speaker 2: of social media apps, I really am, and I hope

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Speaker 2: it happens, but it hasn't happened yet, and so we're

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Speaker 2: still in the wild West at the moment. Like the

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Speaker 2: tweaks are okay, But the place that this gets really

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Speaker 2: thorny for parents is what Evan Spiegl's saying, which is like,

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Speaker 2: it's your fault. So, for example, with the ten pm

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Speaker 2: one rule that I do have in my house and

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Speaker 2: it's very strict and we do not breach it is

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Speaker 2: no phones in the bedrooms, so after a certain time

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Speaker 2: of night, they're not allowed their phones, generally speaking. Enormous

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Speaker 2: pushback to that one that Matilda first got a phone

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Speaker 2: all that, but now that's just set. That's just the

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Speaker 2: way it is. No one argues about it. Anymore. There

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Speaker 2: is a point there people will say, well, that's up

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Speaker 2: to parents, and that's subjecnt and like some of it is,

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Speaker 2: and some of it is easier to do than others.

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Speaker 2: So that's that can be easy ish to do, depending

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Speaker 2: on whether or not you've got a lock box, which

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00:18:53,567 --> 00:18:55,647
Speaker 2: we do, whether or not you've got control of the

404
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Speaker 2: Wi Fi and all those things. But what is complicated

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Speaker 2: for me, even as Jesse's already said, as someone who's

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Speaker 2: very tech savvy, is when I hand my son the phone,

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Speaker 2: have I put the right restrictions on it? Are the

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Speaker 2: filters right? Everything that he needs to do has to

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Speaker 2: go through me, and I have to password to prove it.

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Speaker 2: And I have a hard time remembering any of my

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Speaker 2: passwords ever, because I'm a woman of a certain age.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps I don't know why, but I do like I've

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Speaker 2: DoD so make it easy for me until we've solved

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Speaker 2: this problem.

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Speaker 3: And I know there is a term that's totally overused,

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Speaker 3: but I feel, like Evan Spiegel, I think this is gaslighting.

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Speaker 3: This is gaslighting parents, and it is guilty parents.

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Speaker 1: And he's so privileged because not everybody has staff and

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Speaker 1: nannies and people at home and able to supervise their

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Speaker 1: kids twenty four seven. Yeh so and.

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Speaker 2: Divert them with really like enriching activities.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to create an app that will addict

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Speaker 3: your children. It is designed to addict you. And he said,

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Speaker 3: on the same day as he gave these comments, we're

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Speaker 3: on pace for record annual revenue this year. So he's

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Speaker 3: celebrating his wins which have been caused by creating absolute addiction.

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Speaker 3: And then he's going to sit there and wag the

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Speaker 3: finger at parents and say, if your kids are addicted,

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Speaker 3: that's your fault. What's the difference between ritual and obsession,

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Speaker 3: an enjoyable habit and a compulsion. How do we know

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Speaker 3: what serves us or brings us joy and gives our

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Speaker 3: life structure? And what might we be a little bit

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Speaker 3: too reliant on? You might have heard of the running

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Speaker 3: app Strava.

435
00:20:31,127 --> 00:20:34,567
Speaker 2: Have you like everyone that my running friends are very

436
00:20:34,567 --> 00:20:35,367
Speaker 2: into their Strava?

437
00:20:35,487 --> 00:20:36,807
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't have any running friends.

438
00:20:38,167 --> 00:20:41,007
Speaker 3: Well. A recent article in The Guardian by Chloe Hamilton

439
00:20:41,087 --> 00:20:44,047
Speaker 3: tells a story of a man named Tom Vickery and

440
00:20:44,167 --> 00:20:47,367
Speaker 3: he cannot break his Strava streak. He's on a streak

441
00:20:47,407 --> 00:20:50,007
Speaker 3: and streak is just what we were talking about. Word

442
00:20:50,007 --> 00:20:52,927
Speaker 3: popularized by snapchat. You're on snap streaks, which is when

443
00:20:52,967 --> 00:20:55,767
Speaker 3: you've been messaging each other constantly for a very long

444
00:20:55,807 --> 00:20:59,807
Speaker 3: period of time, and this language, well, yes, exactly right.

445
00:20:59,887 --> 00:21:04,287
Speaker 3: It's the gamification of habits essentially. But this streak language

446
00:21:04,327 --> 00:21:07,327
Speaker 3: has now infiltrated a lot of apps that we use

447
00:21:07,407 --> 00:21:09,647
Speaker 3: because it ensures that you will use it every day.

448
00:21:10,247 --> 00:21:14,247
Speaker 3: So he has to log his run and Hamilton also

449
00:21:14,287 --> 00:21:17,607
Speaker 3: speaks to people who have the same relationship with wordle

450
00:21:17,727 --> 00:21:21,447
Speaker 3: or due lingo. They can't go a day without completing it.

451
00:21:21,487 --> 00:21:23,527
Speaker 3: In fact, do you two remember, I think it was

452
00:21:23,687 --> 00:21:26,687
Speaker 3: just a week ago that we talked about tarot and

453
00:21:27,007 --> 00:21:32,007
Speaker 3: magic and all that. Anyone else checking their bloody coaster? Yes,

454
00:21:32,167 --> 00:21:34,527
Speaker 3: I've checked it every single day since I've downloaded that

455
00:21:34,607 --> 00:21:35,367
Speaker 3: god forsaken out.

456
00:21:35,447 --> 00:21:36,207
Speaker 1: Have you learnt much?

457
00:21:36,327 --> 00:21:38,007
Speaker 3: Yes, it's changed how I live my life. And that's

458
00:21:38,047 --> 00:21:40,727
Speaker 3: really it's a real problem because it's not real. According

459
00:21:40,847 --> 00:21:45,087
Speaker 3: to gamification expert Kimba Cooper Martin, this is due to

460
00:21:45,167 --> 00:21:48,607
Speaker 3: something called loss of version. So it's a psychological principle

461
00:21:49,007 --> 00:21:51,807
Speaker 3: that says humans are often more motivated by the fear

462
00:21:51,887 --> 00:21:55,287
Speaker 3: of losing something than the prospect of gaining something new.

463
00:21:55,807 --> 00:21:58,127
Speaker 3: So that means that if you're on a streak, you

464
00:21:58,207 --> 00:22:02,207
Speaker 3: are terrified of breaking it because you're now invested in

465
00:22:02,247 --> 00:22:05,607
Speaker 3: this kind of long game. So is this healthy? I mean,

466
00:22:05,647 --> 00:22:07,487
Speaker 3: if it's a running app, you think this is great,

467
00:22:07,487 --> 00:22:11,247
Speaker 3: it's encouraging exercise. Or is it a kind of addiction

468
00:22:11,447 --> 00:22:13,687
Speaker 3: and his addiction always bad? What do you think?

469
00:22:13,727 --> 00:22:16,527
Speaker 1: The first thing that I thought of was actually when

470
00:22:17,167 --> 00:22:20,447
Speaker 1: people who have become sober talk about how many days

471
00:22:20,487 --> 00:22:22,887
Speaker 1: of sobriety they have or how many years of sobriety

472
00:22:22,887 --> 00:22:25,207
Speaker 1: they have. And I was listening to an interview with

473
00:22:25,287 --> 00:22:28,807
Speaker 1: Demi Moore this week and she was talking about how

474
00:22:28,927 --> 00:22:31,727
Speaker 1: she got sober when she was like twenty two, and

475
00:22:31,727 --> 00:22:35,567
Speaker 1: that was forty years ago. But then she was clear

476
00:22:35,647 --> 00:22:39,727
Speaker 1: to point out that she then I can't know how

477
00:22:39,807 --> 00:22:42,127
Speaker 1: she called it a detour. She called it a detour,

478
00:22:42,287 --> 00:22:44,287
Speaker 1: and that she has twelve years of sobriety. In the

479
00:22:44,287 --> 00:22:47,167
Speaker 1: interviewer was sort of saying, yeah, was it hard to

480
00:22:47,207 --> 00:22:50,607
Speaker 1: start again? Because essentially the clock resets. And the other

481
00:22:50,807 --> 00:22:53,407
Speaker 1: story that I remember is David Sedaris. Remember when everybody

482
00:22:53,447 --> 00:22:55,487
Speaker 1: got Apple watches and it was about ten thousand steps

483
00:22:55,487 --> 00:22:57,727
Speaker 1: and suddenly you could measure you steps. And David Sidaris

484
00:22:57,767 --> 00:23:01,127
Speaker 1: is an amazing writer and comedian, and he became obsessed.

485
00:23:01,167 --> 00:23:03,367
Speaker 1: Every day he went for a walk near his home

486
00:23:03,407 --> 00:23:06,527
Speaker 1: in northern England, I think, and he would pick up

487
00:23:06,567 --> 00:23:09,607
Speaker 1: rubbish and then he started needing to beat his ten

488
00:23:09,647 --> 00:23:12,047
Speaker 1: thousand steps, and then it became I've got to do

489
00:23:12,087 --> 00:23:14,127
Speaker 1: fifteen and twenty. And he kept going until he was

490
00:23:14,687 --> 00:23:18,447
Speaker 1: doing like fifty thousand steps, walking twenty miles a day

491
00:23:18,887 --> 00:23:21,167
Speaker 1: and was like winning awards in the community because we

492
00:23:21,247 --> 00:23:24,847
Speaker 1: picked up so much rubbish and he couldn't stop. His

493
00:23:24,967 --> 00:23:27,847
Speaker 1: watch eventually broke and he was so kind of relieved

494
00:23:27,887 --> 00:23:29,727
Speaker 1: because that was the only way it had to be

495
00:23:29,767 --> 00:23:31,727
Speaker 1: taken out of his hands, because he was so addicted

496
00:23:32,207 --> 00:23:33,647
Speaker 1: to this streak in this routine.

497
00:23:33,687 --> 00:23:36,567
Speaker 2: It's very clever loss of version. It's very clever, and

498
00:23:36,687 --> 00:23:38,647
Speaker 2: so many people use it. In fact, we should use

499
00:23:38,687 --> 00:23:40,967
Speaker 2: it like watch your mommere out loud listening streak Like

500
00:23:41,007 --> 00:23:42,887
Speaker 2: you don't want to break it, do you? It's this

501
00:23:42,927 --> 00:23:46,687
Speaker 2: is it's a brilliant marketing tactic. It's infiltrated my world

502
00:23:46,807 --> 00:23:48,687
Speaker 2: lately because I might be one of the few people

503
00:23:48,727 --> 00:23:51,607
Speaker 2: who started doing wordle in lockdown and kept going. So

504
00:23:51,847 --> 00:23:53,767
Speaker 2: do you still do it? I do Wordle and the

505
00:23:53,807 --> 00:23:56,287
Speaker 2: New York Times every day. I try and do it

506
00:23:56,327 --> 00:23:58,527
Speaker 2: every day. So my routine is, and we're going to

507
00:23:58,527 --> 00:24:02,607
Speaker 2: talk about routines that before I fall asleep, I do Wordle,

508
00:24:03,247 --> 00:24:06,127
Speaker 2: Connections and Strands, which are three New York Times word

509
00:24:06,167 --> 00:24:07,807
Speaker 2: games before I fall asleep.

510
00:24:07,887 --> 00:24:11,447
Speaker 1: Doesn't that activate arouse your brain too much? Maybe?

511
00:24:11,487 --> 00:24:13,807
Speaker 2: But for me, I find it quite a good wine down.

512
00:24:13,887 --> 00:24:16,887
Speaker 2: And I also like to believe that I'm like fending

513
00:24:16,927 --> 00:24:20,247
Speaker 2: off Alzheimer's or something, you know. But they have only

514
00:24:20,327 --> 00:24:24,047
Speaker 2: recently introduced streaks for all those things. So your word

515
00:24:24,127 --> 00:24:25,687
Speaker 2: or streak they've had for a while. So when you

516
00:24:25,687 --> 00:24:27,847
Speaker 2: finish Wordle and you get it, you start to immediately

517
00:24:27,887 --> 00:24:30,487
Speaker 2: pop up, It's got your streak on there, It's got

518
00:24:30,527 --> 00:24:32,447
Speaker 2: you know. Obviously you often get it on three or

519
00:24:32,447 --> 00:24:34,607
Speaker 2: you often get it on four. And then now with

520
00:24:34,727 --> 00:24:37,087
Speaker 2: Connections and Strands being two other word games, and they're

521
00:24:37,287 --> 00:24:39,567
Speaker 2: they're slowly introducing streaks for those two. And I have

522
00:24:39,767 --> 00:24:45,527
Speaker 2: had two very consciously uncouple myself from being attached to

523
00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:48,567
Speaker 2: the streak because what was happening to me is I

524
00:24:48,647 --> 00:24:51,767
Speaker 2: would fall into bed exhausted from doing whatever else, or

525
00:24:51,927 --> 00:24:53,967
Speaker 2: working late or doing whatever I was doing.

526
00:24:53,807 --> 00:24:54,287
Speaker 1: With the kids.

527
00:24:54,767 --> 00:24:56,127
Speaker 2: And then I'd be like, fuck, I've got to do

528
00:24:56,207 --> 00:24:58,287
Speaker 2: wordle because if I don't do word I lose my streak.

529
00:24:58,287 --> 00:25:02,327
Speaker 2: And then I'd remind myself I'm a growner, yeah, and

530
00:25:02,527 --> 00:25:05,567
Speaker 2: I am in charge of my own life, and the

531
00:25:05,567 --> 00:25:07,727
Speaker 2: New York Times app does not own me. And then

532
00:25:07,727 --> 00:25:10,167
Speaker 2: I give myself a stern talking to And does it

533
00:25:10,287 --> 00:25:12,247
Speaker 2: hurt a little bit the next day when it says

534
00:25:12,447 --> 00:25:15,407
Speaker 2: you're on zero? Yes, But do I have to just

535
00:25:15,487 --> 00:25:17,127
Speaker 2: remind myself that I'm a grown up.

536
00:25:17,327 --> 00:25:17,567
Speaker 1: Yes.

537
00:25:17,967 --> 00:25:20,167
Speaker 3: But we do this even though you know apps have

538
00:25:20,207 --> 00:25:23,247
Speaker 3: done it because they're capitalizing on the psychology of habits,

539
00:25:23,247 --> 00:25:27,327
Speaker 3: which enormous amount of research has gone into lately. We

540
00:25:27,407 --> 00:25:30,287
Speaker 3: all do it within our own lives. We game of

541
00:25:30,367 --> 00:25:35,087
Speaker 3: fire habits all the time. Well, for example, I have

542
00:25:35,687 --> 00:25:38,367
Speaker 3: started going to the gym and have been like, I

543
00:25:38,407 --> 00:25:40,727
Speaker 3: am going to go three times a week. So in

544
00:25:40,767 --> 00:25:43,047
Speaker 3: my head, that's kind of the streak. If I didn't

545
00:25:43,087 --> 00:25:45,647
Speaker 3: go three times in a week, I would definitely feel

546
00:25:45,807 --> 00:25:47,727
Speaker 3: a sense of loss and like I hadn't.

547
00:25:47,727 --> 00:25:49,487
Speaker 2: So if you get to the end of the week

548
00:25:49,527 --> 00:25:50,927
Speaker 2: and you haven't done it. You go, I have to

549
00:25:50,927 --> 00:25:52,847
Speaker 2: go tomorrow because I have to do money exactly. I

550
00:25:52,887 --> 00:25:54,847
Speaker 2: have to do my three It's weird. I'm not a

551
00:25:54,967 --> 00:25:56,847
Speaker 2: numbers person, but I'm a data person, so I have

552
00:25:56,927 --> 00:25:59,927
Speaker 2: to have something I can track. And I've used my

553
00:26:00,007 --> 00:26:02,487
Speaker 2: Apple Watch like I have my Kilo jewels on it

554
00:26:02,527 --> 00:26:04,327
Speaker 2: and I have to hit a certain amount of Killo

555
00:26:04,367 --> 00:26:06,607
Speaker 2: jewels in order to establish that I have done the

556
00:26:06,687 --> 00:26:10,207
Speaker 2: right workout that I have done sort of enough. And

557
00:26:10,527 --> 00:26:12,727
Speaker 2: this goes to James Clear, who I've talked about before,

558
00:26:12,767 --> 00:26:15,447
Speaker 2: who wrote the book Atomic Habits. He says, when you

559
00:26:15,447 --> 00:26:18,087
Speaker 2: want to change your behavior, you can simply ask yourself,

560
00:26:18,287 --> 00:26:20,287
Speaker 2: how can I make it obvious? How can I make

561
00:26:20,287 --> 00:26:22,967
Speaker 2: it attractive? How can I make it easy? And how

562
00:26:22,967 --> 00:26:25,407
Speaker 2: can I make it satisfying? And that's kind of the

563
00:26:25,687 --> 00:26:26,287
Speaker 2: big ask.

564
00:26:26,647 --> 00:26:29,727
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's the four things, because it's like que

565
00:26:30,607 --> 00:26:35,207
Speaker 3: behavior something and reward. You need four things in order.

566
00:26:35,287 --> 00:26:37,047
Speaker 3: So it's like a weird thing. Right, every morning, I

567
00:26:37,087 --> 00:26:39,167
Speaker 3: make my bed. But the way that I now do

568
00:26:39,207 --> 00:26:40,847
Speaker 3: that process is I walk into my room and the

569
00:26:40,887 --> 00:26:43,247
Speaker 3: curtains is still drawn, and I know I can't open

570
00:26:43,287 --> 00:26:46,047
Speaker 3: the curtains till the bed is made. So it's this

571
00:26:46,167 --> 00:26:47,927
Speaker 3: weird thing because then I get to open the curtains

572
00:26:47,967 --> 00:26:49,607
Speaker 3: me like the day has started and the light's in.

573
00:26:50,047 --> 00:26:52,527
Speaker 3: Like it's a really simple cue that I there is

574
00:26:52,567 --> 00:26:54,127
Speaker 3: this tiny little reward at.

575
00:26:54,087 --> 00:26:56,607
Speaker 1: The end of you worked that out from reading that book.

576
00:26:56,967 --> 00:26:59,687
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there are like all of these things. Another

577
00:26:59,727 --> 00:27:02,567
Speaker 3: weird one that I've gamified in my life is I

578
00:27:02,607 --> 00:27:05,967
Speaker 3: have a pickieater in Luna, and I was feeling a

579
00:27:06,007 --> 00:27:07,767
Speaker 3: lot of stress. Still I am about what she doesn't

580
00:27:07,767 --> 00:27:09,967
Speaker 3: doesn't it. I now have these lists in my phone.

581
00:27:10,007 --> 00:27:12,327
Speaker 3: This is insane, but this is what I've done because

582
00:27:12,327 --> 00:27:15,287
Speaker 3: I've gamified it. Every time I give her a new food,

583
00:27:15,767 --> 00:27:17,967
Speaker 3: I have to write it down because if I write

584
00:27:18,007 --> 00:27:20,927
Speaker 3: it down, then I feel like there has been an achieved,

585
00:27:21,007 --> 00:27:22,687
Speaker 3: like I did do a thing. I tried to do

586
00:27:22,727 --> 00:27:24,847
Speaker 3: a thing, and I need to mark that. And then

587
00:27:24,847 --> 00:27:26,367
Speaker 3: I've got a list of all the things she will

588
00:27:26,407 --> 00:27:28,407
Speaker 3: eat and so I look at it and I go,

589
00:27:28,487 --> 00:27:30,887
Speaker 3: look at your achievement. She does have things that she like.

590
00:27:30,967 --> 00:27:33,687
Speaker 1: You know, the gamifying. They say that kids have to

591
00:27:34,207 --> 00:27:37,087
Speaker 1: be given something. I think it's seven times before they'll

592
00:27:37,127 --> 00:27:39,127
Speaker 1: accept it. So that's also a way to game of

593
00:27:39,207 --> 00:27:39,967
Speaker 1: fy it isn't.

594
00:27:39,727 --> 00:27:43,767
Speaker 3: It exactly, because otherwise it feels very mundane.

595
00:27:44,127 --> 00:27:46,047
Speaker 2: I think you and me are very because you love

596
00:27:46,047 --> 00:27:49,287
Speaker 2: a routine. I think you have worked that out about

597
00:27:49,287 --> 00:27:52,487
Speaker 2: yourself without having to gamify it, right, Like, your routines

598
00:27:53,207 --> 00:27:56,047
Speaker 2: are quite immovable in some ways, so am mine completely

599
00:27:56,087 --> 00:27:57,927
Speaker 2: so mine, But you didn't need to do that to

600
00:27:57,967 --> 00:28:00,927
Speaker 2: do that. But well, how do you feel if your routine, say,

601
00:28:00,967 --> 00:28:02,727
Speaker 2: your morning routine gets disrupted.

602
00:28:03,207 --> 00:28:07,327
Speaker 1: I don't feel like myself and I need my routines

603
00:28:07,367 --> 00:28:10,967
Speaker 1: to be seven days unfortunately, which is a real shame

604
00:28:11,047 --> 00:28:13,847
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's nice to have a day off. But

605
00:28:13,887 --> 00:28:16,767
Speaker 1: the thing about routines is that they lighten your mental

606
00:28:16,807 --> 00:28:19,167
Speaker 1: load because they mean it's less decisions that you have

607
00:28:19,247 --> 00:28:22,087
Speaker 1: to make, less choices that you have to make. That's why,

608
00:28:22,207 --> 00:28:26,927
Speaker 1: for example, the best time to exercise is in the morning,

609
00:28:27,247 --> 00:28:29,807
Speaker 1: and not give yourself a choice and just make it

610
00:28:29,887 --> 00:28:33,527
Speaker 1: part of your morning routine. Because as soon as you say,

611
00:28:33,767 --> 00:28:35,047
Speaker 1: if it's at the end of the day, you've then

612
00:28:35,087 --> 00:28:37,927
Speaker 1: got the whole day to find reasons not to do.

613
00:28:37,967 --> 00:28:41,687
Speaker 3: It, and your willpower starts to fall off a clear.

614
00:28:41,527 --> 00:28:43,607
Speaker 1: And I would always maybe other people are different. Maybe

615
00:28:43,687 --> 00:28:45,727
Speaker 1: doing it at night can be your routine. But for me,

616
00:28:45,847 --> 00:28:48,647
Speaker 1: I would spend the whole day with the mental load

617
00:28:48,687 --> 00:28:50,807
Speaker 1: of should I, should I not, could I not? Will?

618
00:28:51,087 --> 00:28:54,167
Speaker 1: But maybe how will I feel? So to me the

619
00:28:54,207 --> 00:28:57,287
Speaker 1: mental load of choice. What I have for breakfast? Am

620
00:28:57,327 --> 00:29:00,287
Speaker 1: I going to exercise? Should I wash my hair or not?

621
00:29:01,247 --> 00:29:04,207
Speaker 1: I try to remove as many of those choices as

622
00:29:04,247 --> 00:29:07,487
Speaker 1: possible from my day with routine, light steeve jobs and

623
00:29:07,527 --> 00:29:08,127
Speaker 1: the black pole.

624
00:29:09,247 --> 00:29:11,167
Speaker 3: Have any tricks for the shit you don't want to do?

625
00:29:11,607 --> 00:29:14,647
Speaker 3: Like one example that I read was a writer or

626
00:29:14,727 --> 00:29:17,807
Speaker 3: let's say there's emails or salespeople have to make fifteen

627
00:29:17,847 --> 00:29:19,247
Speaker 3: calls and they don't want to make the calls, right

628
00:29:19,727 --> 00:29:22,527
Speaker 3: was you need a visual cue? So they said in

629
00:29:22,567 --> 00:29:24,527
Speaker 3: one jar you have like hairpins, or you have paper

630
00:29:24,527 --> 00:29:26,407
Speaker 3: clips or whatever, and then you move it every time.

631
00:29:26,447 --> 00:29:29,807
Speaker 3: You need a visual sense of progress. For a lot

632
00:29:29,807 --> 00:29:32,287
Speaker 3: of people, that's like something I have to do. What

633
00:29:32,287 --> 00:29:33,887
Speaker 3: do you do if you've got a task that you

634
00:29:34,007 --> 00:29:36,407
Speaker 3: really really don't want to do? How do you trick yourself.

635
00:29:36,167 --> 00:29:36,527
Speaker 2: Into doing it?

636
00:29:36,607 --> 00:29:36,767
Speaker 3: Now?

637
00:29:36,887 --> 00:29:39,567
Speaker 1: Don't? I just don't do it? And that's a real problem.

638
00:29:39,767 --> 00:29:43,367
Speaker 1: So one of the sort of the productivity hacks is

639
00:29:43,487 --> 00:29:45,967
Speaker 1: eat the frog first, yea. So they say, if you've

640
00:29:45,967 --> 00:29:48,127
Speaker 1: got thing, something that you really don't want to do,

641
00:29:48,127 --> 00:29:50,167
Speaker 1: do that first. You get it out of the way,

642
00:29:50,527 --> 00:29:52,847
Speaker 1: and then you need to treat everything else you do.

643
00:29:53,087 --> 00:29:56,647
Speaker 1: The reason that that doesn't work for everybody, particularly if

644
00:29:56,687 --> 00:30:00,007
Speaker 1: you have ADHD, is that the thing you don't want

645
00:30:00,047 --> 00:30:04,247
Speaker 1: to do become so insurmountable that it means that not

646
00:30:04,287 --> 00:30:06,167
Speaker 1: only will you not eat the frog, you won't do

647
00:30:06,207 --> 00:30:08,367
Speaker 1: anything else that you've got to do afterwards. And so

648
00:30:08,447 --> 00:30:10,447
Speaker 1: that's how your life can sort of descend into a

649
00:30:10,447 --> 00:30:13,167
Speaker 1: bit of chaos and things can just get postponed, postponed.

650
00:30:13,847 --> 00:30:16,207
Speaker 3: So how about you, Holly, Yeah, Like, how about the

651
00:30:16,207 --> 00:30:17,047
Speaker 3: shit you don't want to do?

652
00:30:17,287 --> 00:30:19,807
Speaker 2: Little treats? Yeah, it's the only way. It's like if

653
00:30:19,847 --> 00:30:22,647
Speaker 2: I do that, I get to blah blah so and

654
00:30:22,687 --> 00:30:24,647
Speaker 2: that might be a different thing on a different day,

655
00:30:24,727 --> 00:30:26,527
Speaker 2: depending on where I am. The treat might be like

656
00:30:26,567 --> 00:30:28,487
Speaker 2: a literal treat, like I get to eat that thing,

657
00:30:28,607 --> 00:30:31,567
Speaker 2: drink that thing, or it might be I'm not allowed

658
00:30:31,607 --> 00:30:33,167
Speaker 2: to go in my garden and do the thing I'm

659
00:30:33,287 --> 00:30:35,127
Speaker 2: do in my garden until I've written that many words

660
00:30:35,407 --> 00:30:38,167
Speaker 2: like there will be that like or whatever it is,

661
00:30:38,327 --> 00:30:40,527
Speaker 2: you know, whatever the task is I have to do, Like,

662
00:30:40,567 --> 00:30:43,087
Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to do that until I've done that.

663
00:30:43,127 --> 00:30:45,487
Speaker 1: I think about how teens is also for me. If

664
00:30:45,487 --> 00:30:48,687
Speaker 1: you do them for long enough, they're not routines anymore.

665
00:30:48,687 --> 00:30:51,647
Speaker 1: They become almost part of your identity. It doesn't even

666
00:30:51,647 --> 00:30:54,727
Speaker 1: occur to me making breakfasts or what the thing I

667
00:30:54,767 --> 00:30:57,887
Speaker 1: make for breakfast. It's literally muscle memory. Like my body

668
00:30:57,927 --> 00:30:59,607
Speaker 1: moves in a way. I notice this when I'm in

669
00:30:59,647 --> 00:31:01,887
Speaker 1: the shower. My body moves in a way in the

670
00:31:01,887 --> 00:31:04,647
Speaker 1: shower that I'm not even aware of. Yeh, but I

671
00:31:04,727 --> 00:31:06,607
Speaker 1: do this. Then my face, then I do this, and

672
00:31:06,647 --> 00:31:07,807
Speaker 1: then I reach and then I do this.

673
00:31:07,927 --> 00:31:10,047
Speaker 3: Well, it's got of common ingrained process. And this is

674
00:31:10,047 --> 00:31:12,567
Speaker 3: what clear says that when you walk into a dark room,

675
00:31:12,967 --> 00:31:16,327
Speaker 3: you switch on the light, and that's not a conscious thought.

676
00:31:16,407 --> 00:31:17,887
Speaker 3: So I think we imagine.

677
00:31:17,487 --> 00:31:19,127
Speaker 1: People cost nothing in mental load.

678
00:31:19,367 --> 00:31:21,487
Speaker 3: Yeah, and people go, oh, me a exercise of seven

679
00:31:21,567 --> 00:31:23,527
Speaker 3: days a week. Where does she get the motivation? You

680
00:31:23,567 --> 00:31:25,927
Speaker 3: don't have any motivation when it comes to exercise. No,

681
00:31:26,087 --> 00:31:27,007
Speaker 3: You've actually outside.

682
00:31:27,127 --> 00:31:28,767
Speaker 1: Where do you get the motivation to brush your teeth?

683
00:31:28,807 --> 00:31:28,847
Speaker 3: Like?

684
00:31:28,967 --> 00:31:30,847
Speaker 1: You don't even think about that as a choice. It's

685
00:31:30,927 --> 00:31:31,927
Speaker 1: just a thing that you do.

686
00:31:32,047 --> 00:31:34,567
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with my morning walk. If I don't get

687
00:31:34,567 --> 00:31:37,287
Speaker 2: to do it, I'm really pissed off. I will organize

688
00:31:37,287 --> 00:31:39,567
Speaker 2: my day around that, whether I'm here, whether I'm at home.

689
00:31:40,007 --> 00:31:41,447
Speaker 2: It's like if I don't get to do it, if

690
00:31:41,447 --> 00:31:43,767
Speaker 2: I've got an early meeting or an early interview, or

691
00:31:43,807 --> 00:31:45,327
Speaker 2: I've got to dry it like it, just do you

692
00:31:45,367 --> 00:31:46,327
Speaker 2: actually enjoy the war?

693
00:31:46,487 --> 00:31:47,047
Speaker 1: I love it.

694
00:31:47,367 --> 00:31:49,007
Speaker 2: I love because I don't really.

695
00:31:48,887 --> 00:31:51,167
Speaker 1: Enjoy my exercise in the morning. I don't enjoy it,

696
00:31:51,207 --> 00:31:53,367
Speaker 1: but I enjoy how I feel afterwards, and I enjoy

697
00:31:53,487 --> 00:31:54,887
Speaker 1: having done it, Yeah.

698
00:31:54,767 --> 00:31:56,607
Speaker 2: Which is how I feel about things like running and

699
00:31:56,607 --> 00:31:59,327
Speaker 2: like hard things. But walking isn't hard. Walking is just

700
00:31:59,407 --> 00:32:02,167
Speaker 2: nice and I like being outside and I like, I

701
00:32:02,167 --> 00:32:03,967
Speaker 2: don't know for what I mean. It gives me whatever

702
00:32:03,967 --> 00:32:06,527
Speaker 2: it gives me. But it's interesting to me that if

703
00:32:06,567 --> 00:32:08,807
Speaker 2: I think now about like maybe tomorrow, I might not

704
00:32:08,807 --> 00:32:10,607
Speaker 2: get to go because I've got this thing and that

705
00:32:10,647 --> 00:32:12,607
Speaker 2: thing or I've got to finish that thing, I can

706
00:32:12,727 --> 00:32:16,687
Speaker 2: feel the like, the unhappiness, the anxiety building in my

707
00:32:16,767 --> 00:32:18,887
Speaker 2: chest because I just love it. Right, So it's become

708
00:32:18,927 --> 00:32:20,807
Speaker 2: a routine that I very much embrace.

709
00:32:20,927 --> 00:32:23,007
Speaker 3: My trick has been pairing those things I don't want

710
00:32:23,047 --> 00:32:23,967
Speaker 3: to do with things I.

711
00:32:23,847 --> 00:32:25,687
Speaker 1: Love, like opening the curtains.

712
00:32:25,767 --> 00:32:29,647
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's always tasks, like you know, whether it's

713
00:32:29,807 --> 00:32:32,087
Speaker 3: invoicing or emails you don't want to reply to, or

714
00:32:32,087 --> 00:32:34,167
Speaker 3: there's work I don't want to do. I have to

715
00:32:34,167 --> 00:32:37,127
Speaker 3: do it alongside something I enjoy it, which is usually coffee.

716
00:32:37,287 --> 00:32:39,247
Speaker 3: It's like when you sit down to have the coffee,

717
00:32:39,447 --> 00:32:42,287
Speaker 3: which you love, you've got to do you don't want

718
00:32:42,287 --> 00:32:42,447
Speaker 3: to do.

719
00:32:42,567 --> 00:32:46,527
Speaker 1: Tea is my conduit into doing anything.

720
00:32:46,247 --> 00:32:50,487
Speaker 3: Really and saving podcasts for exercise because then I'm looking

721
00:32:50,527 --> 00:32:52,647
Speaker 3: forward to the podcast, and I've convinced myself I'm looking

722
00:32:52,647 --> 00:32:55,847
Speaker 3: forward to the exercise. Out louders, I want to know

723
00:32:56,327 --> 00:32:58,887
Speaker 3: how you keep good habits. What are your little tricks?

724
00:32:58,887 --> 00:33:01,767
Speaker 3: What have you gamified? Do you think it's sometimes a

725
00:33:01,767 --> 00:33:03,327
Speaker 3: little bit toxic? Do you have a bit of a

726
00:33:03,367 --> 00:33:05,447
Speaker 3: streak like Collie does with her world or I know

727
00:33:05,527 --> 00:33:08,847
Speaker 3: lots of people I was traveling recently and that I went, Okay,

728
00:33:08,887 --> 00:33:10,727
Speaker 3: we need to have an intervention. Because there is addiction

729
00:33:10,887 --> 00:33:11,367
Speaker 3: with word.

730
00:33:11,247 --> 00:33:11,527
Speaker 1: Or going on.

731
00:33:11,607 --> 00:33:13,927
Speaker 2: Yes, there definitely is. But also for me and brand

732
00:33:14,007 --> 00:33:15,887
Speaker 2: it's a togetherness thing too, because we send each other

733
00:33:15,887 --> 00:33:18,807
Speaker 2: our stats. If we're not together, there go see it's

734
00:33:18,847 --> 00:33:23,807
Speaker 2: cute saving lives. Just wait for the Montmere out loud streak.

735
00:33:26,967 --> 00:33:29,527
Speaker 1: Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?

736
00:33:29,647 --> 00:33:33,847
Speaker 1: We dropped episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for mum

737
00:33:33,967 --> 00:33:36,527
Speaker 1: MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to

738
00:33:36,527 --> 00:33:38,967
Speaker 1: get us in your ears five days a week, and

739
00:33:39,007 --> 00:33:41,487
Speaker 1: a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

740
00:33:46,927 --> 00:33:50,887
Speaker 2: Yesterday, the front page of a Sydney tabloid newspaper, beaming

741
00:33:50,887 --> 00:33:53,967
Speaker 2: out at us from every servo and convenience store shelf,

742
00:33:54,127 --> 00:33:56,727
Speaker 2: was of a famous man who had just suffered a

743
00:33:56,807 --> 00:34:01,847
Speaker 2: drug overdose. Andrew O'Keeffe used to be a mainstream TV hero.

744
00:34:02,487 --> 00:34:05,647
Speaker 2: He hosted game shows, Morning TV and he even received

745
00:34:05,647 --> 00:34:09,087
Speaker 2: an order of Australia Medal in twenty seventeen for his

746
00:34:09,287 --> 00:34:13,487
Speaker 2: TV and charity work. Things began to go pair shaped

747
00:34:13,527 --> 00:34:16,887
Speaker 2: for him in the late twenty teens, in quite a

748
00:34:16,927 --> 00:34:20,847
Speaker 2: familiar pattern for those who've seen the celebrity downfall narrative

749
00:34:20,967 --> 00:34:27,047
Speaker 2: unfold before scuffles with photographers, a divorce, a dui, a

750
00:34:27,087 --> 00:34:30,607
Speaker 2: big dollar contract with his employer Channel seven not renewed,

751
00:34:31,167 --> 00:34:33,887
Speaker 2: and then things ramped up. The man who was once

752
00:34:33,967 --> 00:34:37,527
Speaker 2: the chairman of White Ribbon was arrested in twenty twenty

753
00:34:37,527 --> 00:34:41,167
Speaker 2: one on domestic violence and common assault charges against his partner.

754
00:34:41,767 --> 00:34:44,687
Speaker 2: Those charges were dismissed on mental health grounds. He was

755
00:34:44,847 --> 00:34:48,527
Speaker 2: ordered into an intense mental health program. Then later that

756
00:34:48,607 --> 00:34:52,447
Speaker 2: same year, more assault charges and now drug possession. His

757
00:34:52,607 --> 00:34:56,847
Speaker 2: reliance on methamphetamine ice as many people call it, becomes clear.

758
00:34:57,527 --> 00:35:01,207
Speaker 2: Since then, more assault charges, more DUIs, a five month

759
00:35:01,287 --> 00:35:06,167
Speaker 2: stint and rehab, arrested for breaching, an avo, intimidation, stalking,

760
00:35:06,847 --> 00:35:11,007
Speaker 2: and this week an overdose an ice possession. Back in

761
00:35:11,047 --> 00:35:13,767
Speaker 2: court before a judge who's saying that jail might be

762
00:35:13,807 --> 00:35:17,487
Speaker 2: the only thing to save Andrew O'Keeffe's life. There are

763
00:35:17,527 --> 00:35:21,567
Speaker 2: more paparazzi outside court, more front pages, more news articles,

764
00:35:21,647 --> 00:35:26,247
Speaker 2: more headlines. Why are we talking about Andrew O'Keefe today, Well,

765
00:35:26,287 --> 00:35:29,327
Speaker 2: I've got a question. Should this man's descent into an

766
00:35:29,407 --> 00:35:33,247
Speaker 2: absolute freefall of mental illness and drug addiction and violence

767
00:35:33,887 --> 00:35:37,727
Speaker 2: and desperation be on our front pages at all? Would

768
00:35:37,807 --> 00:35:40,127
Speaker 2: not covering this be giving a free kick to a

769
00:35:40,127 --> 00:35:44,447
Speaker 2: privileged celebrity who's been convicted of assaulting women or is

770
00:35:44,567 --> 00:35:49,407
Speaker 2: continuing to cover this just added cruelty, unhelpful, robinecking and

771
00:35:49,567 --> 00:35:53,327
Speaker 2: exploitation of a fascination with riches to rags stories.

772
00:35:53,847 --> 00:35:56,647
Speaker 3: Jesse, I think it's voyeurism, and I don't think it's

773
00:35:56,687 --> 00:35:59,727
Speaker 3: in the public interest anymore. I keep seeing this on

774
00:35:59,807 --> 00:36:03,487
Speaker 3: the front page of papers and on every homepage. He

775
00:36:03,567 --> 00:36:07,607
Speaker 3: has not worked in media for almost four years, like

776
00:36:07,807 --> 00:36:12,047
Speaker 3: he isn't on television currently. He is clearly very very

777
00:36:12,127 --> 00:36:16,287
Speaker 3: unwell with addiction issues and mental health issues. And there's

778
00:36:16,287 --> 00:36:19,767
Speaker 3: a video that's been circulating that was broadcast on Channel seven.

779
00:36:19,767 --> 00:36:22,127
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if other networks picked it up, but

780
00:36:22,287 --> 00:36:26,927
Speaker 3: he was being followed by a paparazzi who was snapping

781
00:36:27,007 --> 00:36:32,447
Speaker 3: and filming, who yelled at him Big Weekend Mate in

782
00:36:32,527 --> 00:36:36,127
Speaker 3: reference to him nearly dying over the weekend of a

783
00:36:36,207 --> 00:36:40,327
Speaker 3: drug overdose. He obviously, I mean, I would assume, reacted.

784
00:36:40,567 --> 00:36:42,967
Speaker 3: He didn't want to be followed out of the police station,

785
00:36:43,047 --> 00:36:46,167
Speaker 3: and he was yelling back, and this cameraman was saying,

786
00:36:46,207 --> 00:36:49,487
Speaker 3: you're a degenerate, You're a degenerate, And I thought, when.

787
00:36:49,287 --> 00:36:51,407
Speaker 1: You say a camera man, I don't think it was

788
00:36:51,527 --> 00:36:54,127
Speaker 1: anyone employed by the media necessarily. I think it was

789
00:36:54,167 --> 00:36:56,487
Speaker 1: someone with a phone who then sold the footage.

790
00:36:56,767 --> 00:37:00,607
Speaker 3: Yes, but around were television cameras, so what I could

791
00:37:00,727 --> 00:37:04,407
Speaker 3: see was he is followed everywhere. Yes, he's followed absolutely everywhere,

792
00:37:04,447 --> 00:37:08,767
Speaker 3: which begs the question why do we need to see this?

793
00:37:09,287 --> 00:37:09,727
Speaker 3: Who is it?

794
00:37:10,007 --> 00:37:10,207
Speaker 1: Four?

795
00:37:11,247 --> 00:37:14,327
Speaker 3: Is this a way for us to sort of mock

796
00:37:14,527 --> 00:37:17,647
Speaker 3: or even get some titillation out of addiction? And even

797
00:37:17,687 --> 00:37:20,887
Speaker 3: reading what the judge this is a really really sad story.

798
00:37:20,927 --> 00:37:24,327
Speaker 3: And I don't mean just sad for Andrew o'caife. There

799
00:37:24,327 --> 00:37:27,447
Speaker 3: are serious victims. I feel for his family, like this

800
00:37:27,567 --> 00:37:33,087
Speaker 3: is just horrific. But the judge said they've tried rehabilitation facilities,

801
00:37:33,407 --> 00:37:37,727
Speaker 3: they've tried mental health facilities and nothing is working. For

802
00:37:37,767 --> 00:37:40,887
Speaker 3: a lot of Australian families, is probably quite familiar that

803
00:37:40,967 --> 00:37:44,927
Speaker 3: you just get absolutely stuck. But I don't think we

804
00:37:44,927 --> 00:37:47,727
Speaker 3: should be looking anymore. Is there an argument of public

805
00:37:47,727 --> 00:37:48,327
Speaker 3: interest here?

806
00:37:48,607 --> 00:37:51,567
Speaker 1: I guess the argument could be it's a cautionary tale.

807
00:37:51,927 --> 00:37:56,327
Speaker 1: It's as close to our own Britney Spears or Amanda

808
00:37:56,367 --> 00:37:59,287
Speaker 1: Binds as we've seen. Obviously he doesn't have that kind

809
00:37:59,327 --> 00:38:03,327
Speaker 1: of level of fame. But the line between mental health

810
00:38:03,367 --> 00:38:08,647
Speaker 1: and addiction and crime and self destruction. I mean, there

811
00:38:08,687 --> 00:38:13,007
Speaker 1: is no line. They're all just so blurred. And I think, well,

812
00:38:13,047 --> 00:38:14,647
Speaker 1: the thing about fame is that you can't give it

813
00:38:14,647 --> 00:38:17,087
Speaker 1: back like he will always be. You can't turn it off,

814
00:38:17,087 --> 00:38:21,007
Speaker 1: and you can't retrospectively go because people aren't following, you know,

815
00:38:21,247 --> 00:38:25,447
Speaker 1: Joe Brown around and photographing him every time he gets arrested.

816
00:38:25,567 --> 00:38:27,087
Speaker 1: And as you say, Jesse, this will be a really

817
00:38:27,127 --> 00:38:30,927
Speaker 1: familiar cycle to people who have loved ones who are

818
00:38:30,927 --> 00:38:35,647
Speaker 1: struggling with addiction. The problem is what are you meant

819
00:38:35,687 --> 00:38:38,287
Speaker 1: to do? Like the justice system and the legal system,

820
00:38:38,447 --> 00:38:41,807
Speaker 1: they're made up of people, right, we understand, and the

821
00:38:41,887 --> 00:38:44,567
Speaker 1: judges understand. And he's been shown an extraordinary amount of

822
00:38:44,607 --> 00:38:48,247
Speaker 1: leeway and compassion and given a lot of chances. But

823
00:38:48,327 --> 00:38:52,207
Speaker 1: a crime is a crime. And when you are caught

824
00:38:52,247 --> 00:38:55,887
Speaker 1: with a band substance, when you are driving under the influence,

825
00:38:55,927 --> 00:38:59,647
Speaker 1: when you're endangering people's lives, when you're assaulting people, you

826
00:38:59,767 --> 00:39:02,247
Speaker 1: can't really look away. And the fact that he was

827
00:39:02,287 --> 00:39:06,447
Speaker 1: a white ribbon ambassador or a chair and he was the

828
00:39:06,447 --> 00:39:09,087
Speaker 1: guy on all the game shows and on breakfast television,

829
00:39:10,047 --> 00:39:13,247
Speaker 1: the rubbernecking and the I won't say necessarily public interest

830
00:39:13,327 --> 00:39:16,127
Speaker 1: but the public curiosity because if no one was buying

831
00:39:16,127 --> 00:39:19,047
Speaker 1: the newspapers and clicking on the stories, they would stop

832
00:39:19,087 --> 00:39:22,407
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't be followed anymore. But people do want

833
00:39:22,447 --> 00:39:25,567
Speaker 1: to look. They do because it is so shocking up.

834
00:39:25,607 --> 00:39:29,047
Speaker 1: You know, I met Andrew a few times in various

835
00:39:29,247 --> 00:39:32,647
Speaker 1: media capacities. I always thought he was an intense guy.

836
00:39:33,607 --> 00:39:36,727
Speaker 1: He is quite a prickly guy. But it's shocking that

837
00:39:36,887 --> 00:39:39,487
Speaker 1: someone that you have met that seems like they had

838
00:39:39,527 --> 00:39:43,567
Speaker 1: it all, that had a wife and kids and fame

839
00:39:43,727 --> 00:39:46,567
Speaker 1: and fortune, this could happen to them.

840
00:39:46,607 --> 00:39:48,487
Speaker 3: He's in and out of court like he's And this

841
00:39:48,567 --> 00:39:50,567
Speaker 3: is what I mean is that he is being reprimanded,

842
00:39:50,607 --> 00:39:50,967
Speaker 3: but that.

843
00:39:50,887 --> 00:39:52,207
Speaker 1: In itself becomes the narrative.

844
00:39:52,727 --> 00:39:55,407
Speaker 2: The clear comparison to here was Ben Cousins, right, This

845
00:39:55,567 --> 00:39:58,967
Speaker 2: is exactly what happened to Ben Cousins. Now he's particularly

846
00:39:58,967 --> 00:40:01,927
Speaker 2: famous in Western Australia, the footballer who we've talked about

847
00:40:01,967 --> 00:40:04,167
Speaker 2: on the show before, because his redemption arc is now

848
00:40:04,207 --> 00:40:07,087
Speaker 2: in full swing. It was the same. It was public

849
00:40:07,127 --> 00:40:11,967
Speaker 2: incident after public incident. Do you wi cops chasing photographers, assault,

850
00:40:12,127 --> 00:40:16,167
Speaker 2: stalking like almost exactly the same playbook. Anyone who knows

851
00:40:16,207 --> 00:40:18,967
Speaker 2: anything about serious addiction knows that it will take and

852
00:40:19,047 --> 00:40:21,727
Speaker 2: Matthew Perry's book was very clear on this and obviously

853
00:40:21,847 --> 00:40:25,647
Speaker 2: tragic ending there. It will take many trips to rehabit

854
00:40:25,767 --> 00:40:29,287
Speaker 2: will take many Like it's not we like everything to

855
00:40:29,327 --> 00:40:33,047
Speaker 2: have a neat narrative like problem, you know, treatment fixed.

856
00:40:33,247 --> 00:40:36,607
Speaker 2: It's not generally how it goes with very entrenched addiction

857
00:40:36,687 --> 00:40:39,927
Speaker 2: and mental health. This will go on. And there's an

858
00:40:40,047 --> 00:40:43,127
Speaker 2: element here that you've got to unpick the kind of privilege,

859
00:40:43,127 --> 00:40:46,047
Speaker 2: because there is privilege at play here. As mere reference before,

860
00:40:46,207 --> 00:40:49,407
Speaker 2: particularly in his first domestic violence and assault case, he

861
00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:51,287
Speaker 2: got off on a way that he would not have

862
00:40:51,327 --> 00:40:53,487
Speaker 2: got off if he was Joe Brown. He could afford

863
00:40:53,527 --> 00:40:55,887
Speaker 2: the really good lawyers. He's had a lot of leeway.

864
00:40:56,407 --> 00:40:59,327
Speaker 2: And so there's an argument there that it's kind of like,

865
00:40:59,487 --> 00:41:04,287
Speaker 2: particularly when it comes to violence, often famous and powerful

866
00:41:04,287 --> 00:41:06,167
Speaker 2: and rich men get away with a lot more shit.

867
00:41:06,367 --> 00:41:09,207
Speaker 2: I mean, men in general get away with a lot

868
00:41:09,407 --> 00:41:11,367
Speaker 2: of things when they do things to women that they shouldn't,

869
00:41:11,407 --> 00:41:13,847
Speaker 2: but famous and powerful and rich men more so, more so,

870
00:41:13,927 --> 00:41:16,927
Speaker 2: more so, so, you could argue that that is a

871
00:41:16,967 --> 00:41:21,367
Speaker 2: narrative that plays out here. But arguing against myself about

872
00:41:21,367 --> 00:41:24,647
Speaker 2: that there is also just an element of public shaming

873
00:41:24,727 --> 00:41:27,767
Speaker 2: here that we clearly find irresistible. And me is right,

874
00:41:27,767 --> 00:41:30,807
Speaker 2: they're not necessarily reputable. Cameramember that the people who are

875
00:41:30,807 --> 00:41:33,087
Speaker 2: covering this are yelling at him, You're a disgrace, You're

876
00:41:33,127 --> 00:41:35,967
Speaker 2: a degenerate in order to get a reaction from him.

877
00:41:36,007 --> 00:41:38,527
Speaker 2: It's like, how low do they want him to stoop?

878
00:41:38,607 --> 00:41:40,607
Speaker 2: How low do we need that man to be so

879
00:41:40,687 --> 00:41:43,047
Speaker 2: that we can be like, hat, look at you? And

880
00:41:43,127 --> 00:41:44,927
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's interesting about whether we should look

881
00:41:44,927 --> 00:41:48,367
Speaker 2: away because do I think that if and when Andrew

882
00:41:48,367 --> 00:41:50,687
Speaker 2: O'Keeffe manages to get on top of this in some

883
00:41:50,767 --> 00:41:53,407
Speaker 2: way in the way that Ben Cousins apparently has, I

884
00:41:53,447 --> 00:41:56,127
Speaker 2: want him on Dancing with the Stars in three years time? No,

885
00:41:56,367 --> 00:41:59,767
Speaker 2: absolutely not, not with that rap sheet. But do I

886
00:41:59,847 --> 00:42:03,087
Speaker 2: think he deserves to be on the front page every

887
00:42:03,127 --> 00:42:05,847
Speaker 2: time that you know he's in then? Also No, I

888
00:42:05,887 --> 00:42:08,247
Speaker 2: think there's kind of a middle ground there of like,

889
00:42:08,367 --> 00:42:10,647
Speaker 2: is it just time to look away and let this

890
00:42:10,687 --> 00:42:11,127
Speaker 2: shit out?

891
00:42:11,207 --> 00:42:14,447
Speaker 3: We're just compounding the man's distress. And you were saying

892
00:42:14,447 --> 00:42:15,967
Speaker 3: we like things to be black and white, and even

893
00:42:16,047 --> 00:42:18,727
Speaker 3: victim perpetrator, and in the case of the DV incident,

894
00:42:18,807 --> 00:42:25,127
Speaker 3: there is victor pert distress and yeah, but.

895
00:42:23,087 --> 00:42:26,407
Speaker 1: It's so interesting these conversations. Sorry to interrupt you about

896
00:42:26,647 --> 00:42:29,127
Speaker 1: when you're saying, we're compounding this, so we should stop.

897
00:42:29,727 --> 00:42:31,607
Speaker 1: What is the role of the media, And I'm not

898
00:42:31,607 --> 00:42:34,567
Speaker 1: saying that in a rhetorical way, like genuinely, what is

899
00:42:34,607 --> 00:42:37,407
Speaker 1: the role of the media, because is it to protect Andrew?

900
00:42:37,847 --> 00:42:40,527
Speaker 3: Is it to harass someone who's mentally ill? Because I

901
00:42:40,527 --> 00:42:42,567
Speaker 3: don't think so. I think if you've got a mental illness,

902
00:42:42,607 --> 00:42:45,887
Speaker 3: so imagine if it was something like dementia and what.

903
00:42:45,847 --> 00:42:48,087
Speaker 1: But is that a mental illness or is he just addicted?

904
00:42:48,207 --> 00:42:50,647
Speaker 2: You know, he has been diagnosed with mental illness, bipolar

905
00:42:50,687 --> 00:42:51,927
Speaker 2: disorder and even addiction.

906
00:42:52,927 --> 00:42:56,327
Speaker 1: Who have bipolar disorder and mental illness don't spit on

907
00:42:56,807 --> 00:43:00,327
Speaker 1: women and assault them and have drugs and drive under

908
00:43:00,327 --> 00:43:03,487
Speaker 1: the influence. So I think that you can't just say, oh, well,

909
00:43:03,527 --> 00:43:06,567
Speaker 1: if you've got the mental health card, therefore all bets

910
00:43:06,607 --> 00:43:08,807
Speaker 1: are off and you're exempt from all scrutiny.

911
00:43:08,847 --> 00:43:12,007
Speaker 2: But it is a relentless and awful disease.

912
00:43:12,087 --> 00:43:14,887
Speaker 3: It just is, right, Yeah, I guess the question is

913
00:43:14,887 --> 00:43:18,247
Speaker 3: if privacy is a human right, like if it's some.

914
00:43:18,407 --> 00:43:21,167
Speaker 2: Court reporting, like you're allowed to report on court. If

915
00:43:21,287 --> 00:43:23,687
Speaker 2: Joe Brown was in that, we need to report on it.

916
00:43:23,687 --> 00:43:24,807
Speaker 2: It's got to be a transparency.

917
00:43:24,967 --> 00:43:25,207
Speaker 4: Yeah.

918
00:43:25,287 --> 00:43:28,447
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the redemption arc your ben cousin's

919
00:43:28,527 --> 00:43:31,527
Speaker 3: point is interesting, right, because part of me wonders, is

920
00:43:31,567 --> 00:43:35,767
Speaker 3: the redemption arc possible because we kept him in the

921
00:43:35,767 --> 00:43:38,927
Speaker 3: spotlight because because he never went away exactly, he never

922
00:43:38,967 --> 00:43:41,407
Speaker 3: went away, so he was always famous. So you're going

923
00:43:41,447 --> 00:43:43,247
Speaker 3: to profit off my fame. I'm going to profit off

924
00:43:43,287 --> 00:43:45,327
Speaker 3: my fame. I think at this point, Andrew o' keef

925
00:43:45,367 --> 00:43:47,047
Speaker 3: needs to not be famous, like we've got it.

926
00:43:47,007 --> 00:43:48,807
Speaker 1: His money unbecome famous.

927
00:43:49,007 --> 00:43:51,087
Speaker 3: Well, I think we look back at Britney Spears, right,

928
00:43:51,287 --> 00:43:53,847
Speaker 3: and we look at her and it might be Pollyanna

929
00:43:53,967 --> 00:43:56,287
Speaker 3: or whatever, but we go, hey, maybe you shouldn't have

930
00:43:56,327 --> 00:43:58,327
Speaker 3: been taking photos of someone who would just shave their

931
00:43:58,367 --> 00:44:01,607
Speaker 3: head and was throwing around an umbrella. And having people

932
00:44:01,647 --> 00:44:04,967
Speaker 3: in my family who have struggled with mental illness and

933
00:44:05,207 --> 00:44:08,007
Speaker 3: various things, who have had moments like that, you don't

934
00:44:08,007 --> 00:44:10,967
Speaker 3: broadcast it like there is some privacy and intimacy in

935
00:44:11,007 --> 00:44:13,767
Speaker 3: those moments that you have this instinct to protect.

936
00:44:14,047 --> 00:44:16,327
Speaker 1: But that's because you are their family you're not the

937
00:44:16,367 --> 00:44:18,527
Speaker 1: media who can monetize those pictures.

938
00:44:18,647 --> 00:44:21,287
Speaker 2: Also, in that particular case, there's a very solid argument

939
00:44:21,327 --> 00:44:23,567
Speaker 2: that it was making it worse, that the attention was

940
00:44:23,607 --> 00:44:24,567
Speaker 2: actually making it well.

941
00:44:24,607 --> 00:44:27,207
Speaker 3: And so is this I would say with Andrew O'Keeffe,

942
00:44:27,487 --> 00:44:29,847
Speaker 3: whether it's the addictional the mental illness, it's like, this

943
00:44:29,967 --> 00:44:33,807
Speaker 3: is actually compounding a man's distress and it's not helping

944
00:44:33,847 --> 00:44:36,647
Speaker 3: his victims. I think that it's easy for the media

945
00:44:36,687 --> 00:44:39,247
Speaker 3: to go, oh, we're just reflecting, but to not hold

946
00:44:39,767 --> 00:44:42,327
Speaker 3: the media any kind of ethics in this situation, I

947
00:44:42,367 --> 00:44:44,647
Speaker 3: think is like what do we want here? Because we

948
00:44:44,687 --> 00:44:47,527
Speaker 3: all know where this is heading and what the next

949
00:44:47,527 --> 00:44:51,727
Speaker 3: headline might be, and if that headline comes, it's like, WHOA, Yeah,

950
00:44:51,727 --> 00:44:53,127
Speaker 3: I think the media had something to do with it.

951
00:44:53,167 --> 00:44:53,967
Speaker 2: I don't think they helped.

952
00:44:55,607 --> 00:44:57,167
Speaker 1: I don't know about that.

953
00:44:57,167 --> 00:45:00,327
Speaker 2: That's I know exactly what you're saying. Could the media

954
00:45:00,367 --> 00:45:02,127
Speaker 2: be proud of the way they've covered this?

955
00:45:02,207 --> 00:45:04,607
Speaker 1: Y are the media we're talking about?

956
00:45:06,127 --> 00:45:06,927
Speaker 3: You're a degenerate.

957
00:45:07,047 --> 00:45:08,807
Speaker 2: But here's the thing is that I agree, I know

958
00:45:08,807 --> 00:45:11,207
Speaker 2: what you mean, But we do ask ourselves that, Like,

959
00:45:11,247 --> 00:45:13,407
Speaker 2: whenever we're talking about these kind of things, we go like,

960
00:45:14,167 --> 00:45:16,527
Speaker 2: is there an interesting point to discuss here, or are

961
00:45:16,567 --> 00:45:18,247
Speaker 2: we just rober necking? And you know, it's a line

962
00:45:18,287 --> 00:45:20,887
Speaker 2: that we might not always exactly get right, but it's

963
00:45:20,927 --> 00:45:24,927
Speaker 2: definitely an examined thing. Right we make a conscious choice.

964
00:45:25,167 --> 00:45:27,607
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because I know what you're saying.

965
00:45:27,647 --> 00:45:33,087
Speaker 2: Could the media, including ourselves, say we treated that with respect? No,

966
00:45:33,207 --> 00:45:35,527
Speaker 2: they couldn't. Yeah, but could you argue that they have

967
00:45:35,607 --> 00:45:37,367
Speaker 2: blood on their hands? I would say in this case,

968
00:45:37,607 --> 00:45:38,047
Speaker 2: I don't.

969
00:45:37,847 --> 00:45:39,607
Speaker 3: Think it's blood on your hands, but I don't think

970
00:45:39,607 --> 00:45:41,367
Speaker 3: it would be far fetched to say that there are

971
00:45:41,367 --> 00:45:44,727
Speaker 3: people you could look at celebrities who have whether it's

972
00:45:44,887 --> 00:45:47,727
Speaker 3: addiction or mental health issues that if you were to go,

973
00:45:47,967 --> 00:45:51,007
Speaker 3: did the media help or hinder they had a hand

974
00:45:51,007 --> 00:45:54,127
Speaker 3: in it. Yeah. Out Louders, if you enjoy listening to

975
00:45:54,127 --> 00:45:56,687
Speaker 3: this podcast, it would mean so much to us if

976
00:45:56,687 --> 00:45:58,927
Speaker 3: you would be willing to take just a few seconds

977
00:45:59,167 --> 00:46:00,407
Speaker 3: to do these three things.

978
00:46:00,647 --> 00:46:03,887
Speaker 1: First, can you please follow or subscribe to out loud?

979
00:46:03,927 --> 00:46:07,007
Speaker 1: Following the pod helps you And I just thought everyone

980
00:46:07,047 --> 00:46:09,247
Speaker 1: did this, but these animals tell me that's not the case.

981
00:46:09,887 --> 00:46:13,087
Speaker 1: You never miss an episode if you follow us or subscribe,

982
00:46:13,127 --> 00:46:15,967
Speaker 1: and it helps us because you know, miss an episode.

983
00:46:16,287 --> 00:46:17,927
Speaker 2: To do this, all you have to do is you

984
00:46:17,967 --> 00:46:20,247
Speaker 2: go to the out Loud show page on Apple or

985
00:46:20,247 --> 00:46:22,927
Speaker 2: Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and all you

986
00:46:22,967 --> 00:46:24,927
Speaker 2: have to do is tap the little plus sign or

987
00:46:24,927 --> 00:46:27,687
Speaker 2: click on follow. This is the most important thing you

988
00:46:27,727 --> 00:46:30,327
Speaker 2: can do to support your podcast.

989
00:46:30,087 --> 00:46:32,047
Speaker 3: While you're there. If you'd be willing to give us

990
00:46:32,047 --> 00:46:34,087
Speaker 3: a five star rating, we'd love it too, and share

991
00:46:34,087 --> 00:46:36,887
Speaker 3: an episode with a friend. We would be so grateful.

992
00:46:37,247 --> 00:46:39,967
Speaker 3: We're so grateful to have your ears, and we appreciate

993
00:46:40,007 --> 00:46:41,607
Speaker 3: our outluders so very much.

994
00:46:41,727 --> 00:46:43,687
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you who already

995
00:46:43,727 --> 00:46:45,607
Speaker 2: do that and those who are doing it right now.

996
00:46:45,687 --> 00:46:47,487
Speaker 2: I can hear you, I can see you.

997
00:46:47,567 --> 00:46:52,087
Speaker 1: Three things, follow, five star review, share with a friend.

998
00:46:52,167 --> 00:46:55,647
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Amazing, well done out that is, thank

999
00:46:55,687 --> 00:46:59,727
Speaker 2: you for listening today. I can hear them doing okay,

1000
00:46:59,767 --> 00:47:02,887
Speaker 2: I can feel them doing it good. And thank you

1001
00:47:02,927 --> 00:47:05,847
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show. And of course, thank you

1002
00:47:05,887 --> 00:47:08,327
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting the show together. We're

1003
00:47:08,327 --> 00:47:10,087
Speaker 2: going to be back in your ear tomorrow.

1004
00:47:10,367 --> 00:47:12,007
Speaker 3: Yay bye.

1005
00:47:12,127 --> 00:47:14,407
Speaker 1: Have you done it yet? Go do it? Do you

1006
00:47:14,447 --> 00:47:15,527
Speaker 1: remember what the three things are?

1007
00:47:15,847 --> 00:47:16,007
Speaker 2: Go?

1008
00:47:16,087 --> 00:47:16,407
Speaker 1: Do it?

1009
00:47:16,527 --> 00:47:19,447
Speaker 2: Just press the plus shout out to any Mamma Mia

1010
00:47:19,527 --> 00:47:22,367
Speaker 2: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

1011
00:47:22,367 --> 00:47:25,367
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1012
00:47:25,407 --> 00:47:27,447
Speaker 2: best way to do it. There's a link in the

1013
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Speaker 2: episode description