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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Hey there, Before we start today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I just want to say that you are going to

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Speaker 1: be hearing from some wonderful Mama Mea voices over the

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Speaker 1: next few weeks as I work on another project. Hollywayin

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Speaker 1: wright Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who is the executive

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Speaker 1: producer of this show, are all going to be sitting

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Speaker 1: in my chair for a few weeks and doing the

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Speaker 1: same wonderful interviews that you know and love from no filter.

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Speaker 1: There are some great conversations coming your way about red

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Speaker 1: and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping

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Speaker 1: from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. You'll be

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Speaker 1: hearing from me soon.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy. Instead of being a stay at home wife or mother,

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Speaker 2: you were a stay at home daughter and practicing to

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Speaker 2: be that wife and mother one day. So girls like

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Speaker 2: me and we stayed home after we turned eighteen. We

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Speaker 2: were supposed to serve our fathers and learn how to

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Speaker 2: take care of him, kind of like a wife would.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to learn how to be that kind

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Speaker 2: of submissive woman by practicing with my dad, which is

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Speaker 2: really fucked up in my opinion.

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Speaker 3: For Momma Mia, this is no filter. I'm naima Brown

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Speaker 3: sitting in for mea Friedman. For most of us, turning

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Speaker 3: eighteen is a milestone that marks the beginning of our

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Speaker 3: adult lives. That's when we go off to UNI, or

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Speaker 3: move into a shared house with our friends, get our

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Speaker 3: first real jobs, go on a gap year traveling around

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Speaker 3: the world. But for Kate West, turning eighteen didn't mean

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Speaker 3: any of those things because she was raised in an

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Speaker 3: extreme religious community that considered her to be what they

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Speaker 3: called a stay at home daughter. And that's just what

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Speaker 3: it sounds like. Kate was expected to stay at home

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Speaker 3: well into her adult hood until her dad, who was

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Speaker 3: a courtship expert and practiced what's referred to as father

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Speaker 3: led dating, had found her a suitable husband. Some stay

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Speaker 3: at home daughters in this movement never leave home and

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Speaker 3: serve their fathers into their fifties or sixties. But the

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Speaker 3: thing is, Kate didn't even know that she had the

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Speaker 3: legal right to move out of home at eighteen. Kate

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Speaker 3: didn't know a lot of things she'd been homeschooled her

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Speaker 3: whole life and taught, as you'll hear in this conversation,

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Speaker 3: some very questionable things, things like Martin Luther King was

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Speaker 3: a bad guy, and that slavery wasn't really all that bad.

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Speaker 3: But she wasn't taught how to drive, or how to

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Speaker 3: get a job or manage her own finances. And that's

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Speaker 3: because she wasn't being prepared for adulthood or independence. She

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Speaker 3: was being prepared for domestic servitude to an arranged husband

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Speaker 3: and to the kids they might have, and to their church. Today,

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Speaker 3: Kate refers to the movement she was raised in as

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Speaker 3: a cult, and the story of how she came to

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Speaker 3: feel that way is one of unlearning a lot of

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Speaker 3: really toxic and trostic things, of seeking help, and a

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Speaker 3: slow process of healing and making sense of what she'd

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Speaker 3: lived through, which was a lot. A note to you,

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Speaker 3: our listeners that Kate understandably hit some very rough patches

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Speaker 3: with her mental health, including suicidal thoughts, which we do

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Speaker 3: touch on a bit in this conversation, so do listen mindfully.

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Speaker 3: I start this conversation by asking Kate to explain to

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Speaker 3: us just how massive and influential the Christian patriarchal movement

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Speaker 3: in America is here's Kate.

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Speaker 2: I really need to get like a giant whiteboard and

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Speaker 2: map out all the different branches of how this works, but.

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Speaker 3: That would be helpful.

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Speaker 2: It's very complex because it's not like a what we

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Speaker 2: often think of as cult as one leader and then

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Speaker 2: the people who follow that leader. Inside of Christian patriarchy,

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Speaker 2: the fathers of each family are kind of like the

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Speaker 2: cult leader of that family, and then they have church

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Speaker 2: leaders that guide them in that work. But as a movement,

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Speaker 2: it spread through small publications at first, and when I

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Speaker 2: was a kid, there was a lot of audio tapes

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Speaker 2: being circulated and sermon tapes and magazines. My father got

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Speaker 2: a magazine called Patriarch Magazine and it really existed and

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Speaker 2: you can still find copies. I found a few copies

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Speaker 2: on eBay teaching men how to be patriarchs, and so

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Speaker 2: in that sense, it was a grassroots movement. So that's

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Speaker 2: just an aspect of how this has spread to be

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Speaker 2: into the mainstream under this perception that it's fringe, but

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Speaker 2: really it's very popular, and I saw it spread a

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Speaker 2: lot through the homeschooling community. So eighties and nineties in

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Speaker 2: the US homeschooling became more legal and accepted, and the

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Speaker 2: only people who were doing it really were mostly religious families,

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Speaker 2: and so homeschooling was a way of spreading these ideas

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Speaker 2: through the Christian homeschooling. Tell me a.

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Speaker 3: Little bit about your parents and where where they intersected

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Speaker 3: with this ideology. Were they raised within what you would

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Speaker 3: call Christian patriarchal systems as well?

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Speaker 2: No, I think you know, they grew up in more

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Speaker 2: the broader understanding of patriarchy. I think our society is

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Speaker 2: built on patriarchy. And my mother grew up in the

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist Church, which wouldn't fall under this movement that

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Speaker 2: I would call it, but it does have that patriarchal

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Speaker 2: underlying idea of this is what women should do. It's

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Speaker 2: just not as it's not as explicit or fundamentalist as

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Speaker 2: the way I grew up. So my mom grew up Baptist.

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Speaker 2: My dad grew up kind of Lutheran. He became Catholic

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Speaker 2: for a short time until he became born again by

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Speaker 2: an evangelism team right after he married my mom. And

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Speaker 2: so right after they got married they fell into Presbyterianism

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Speaker 2: and became more and more fundamentalist. As time went on.

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Speaker 3: What was the denomination I suppose that guided most of

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Speaker 3: your life and the decisions around child rearing and you

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Speaker 3: know what your life would look like.

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Speaker 2: So early on, it was the Presbyterian Church of America,

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Speaker 2: So the PCA, which surprises a lot of people because

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Speaker 2: people think that Presbyterians aren't fundamentalists, but there is a

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Speaker 2: branch of Presbyterians who are. And my family is very reformed,

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Speaker 2: very calvinistic, built that belief system that God foreordained everything

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Speaker 2: and you're either predestined for heaven or hell. So that

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Speaker 2: was my early childhood. As I became a teenager, we

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Speaker 2: joined a new Orthodox Presbyterian church in Colorado, and that

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Speaker 2: denomination is very similar to the PCA. But our pastor

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Speaker 2: was very much a leader in both homeschooling movement and

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Speaker 2: the Christian patriarchy movement.

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Speaker 3: The Christian patriarchy movement, the Christian patriarchy in general, really

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Speaker 3: ruled your life from the moment you were born. You

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Speaker 3: were raised in a very strict religious family. I want

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Speaker 3: to talk about what that looked like as a child.

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Speaker 3: Tell me about the area where you grew up and

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Speaker 3: how integrated I suppose into your neighborhood into your community

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Speaker 3: you felt as a family and as an individual.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I was five, I went to a Christian

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Speaker 2: private school for a few months before my dad learned

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Speaker 2: about homeschooling and decided to pull me out and start

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Speaker 2: homeschooling with me. My two older siblings still went to

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Speaker 2: a Christian school, but I was the one that they

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Speaker 2: were going to practice homeschooling on before they switched all

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Speaker 2: the way over. And I remember that contrast of the

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Speaker 2: first few months being in a classroom with other kids

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Speaker 2: my age, and then being kept at home learning by

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Speaker 2: myself with my mother and waiting for all those other

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Speaker 2: kids to get home off the school bus so that

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Speaker 2: I could see them when they got home. So I

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Speaker 2: had this quiet you know. My mom was a very

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Speaker 2: good early education teacher. She wasn't trained, but she was

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Speaker 2: very invested in me learning how to read and gave

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Speaker 2: me a lot of books. So that was really great,

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Speaker 2: and I really looked forward to having other kids around

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Speaker 2: so that I could play after school. But then when

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Speaker 2: I turned ten years old, we moved to Colorado into

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Speaker 2: the mountains, became more isolated. Now my family was completely homeschooling,

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Speaker 2: no outside school. We joined that very patriarchal church, and

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Speaker 2: my life became smaller and smaller, so the only people

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Speaker 2: I interacted with were inside of that world. And it

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Speaker 2: also just felt that way to me. It felt like

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Speaker 2: my life was becoming smaller and smaller at the same

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Speaker 2: time that I was being told I was created for

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Speaker 2: these great things, that I was going to be part

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Speaker 2: of this great movement to bring you know, godliness to

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about who comprised your family,

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Speaker 3: who you were growing up around, and just a bit

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Speaker 3: about their personalities and how they were interacting with this ideology.

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Speaker 3: Because your sister was quite rebellious in some ways, wasn't she.

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Speaker 2: Yes, my older sister. Some people have described her as feisty,

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Speaker 2: which I agree with, and I try to portray that

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Speaker 2: in the book of Remembering Her, my older sister, she's

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Speaker 2: about nine years older than me. Remembering her pushing back

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Speaker 2: on some of these rules and boundaries that were being

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Speaker 2: set on us that were they were very new, Like

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Speaker 2: I remember when certain rules were unstated, and she always

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Speaker 2: pushed back a little bit. But I also watched her

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Speaker 2: being punished a lot and being confined to her room

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Speaker 2: or not allowed to see her friends. She was allowed

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Speaker 2: to work for a while, and then my dad decided

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Speaker 2: no more working and no more dating, and it was

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Speaker 2: hard to watch her become quieter and quieter, and it

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Speaker 2: felt like her light was dimming as these rules became

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Speaker 2: more restricted. And so, yeah, I always looked up to

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Speaker 2: her as that person who had that spirit, you know,

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Speaker 2: and looking back, it's really heartbreaking to see what this

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Speaker 2: did to her. And my older brother, he's six years

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Speaker 2: older than me. I was always told he was the

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Speaker 2: rebellious one, and when he was seventeen he escaped our

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Speaker 2: family life because there was abuse happening. And he joined

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Speaker 2: the army when he was seventeen and got out and

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Speaker 2: rejected all of it. And so in some ways I'm

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Speaker 2: jealous of him being able to do that and getting

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Speaker 2: out so early. And then there was me. I was

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Speaker 2: watching those my two older siblings get in trouble and

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Speaker 2: learning don't disobey or you're going to get harsh consequences.

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Speaker 2: So I was always well behaved and trusted by my

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Speaker 2: father because I wanted to please him and make sure

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Speaker 2: I didn't get in trouble.

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Speaker 3: Your life was governed by a lot of rules. I

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Speaker 3: want to kind of go through a few of those

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Speaker 3: and learn a little bit more about how you lived them.

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Speaker 3: Talk to me about modesty.

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Speaker 2: So modesty, I think is very typical across purity culture

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Speaker 2: of any kind, as you might know, like in the

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Speaker 2: US during the eighties, was the purity culture movement or

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Speaker 2: like this trend of purity rings and purity balls.

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Speaker 3: Can tell us what purity culture is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this idea that girls, well especially girls need

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Speaker 2: to stay pure before marriage and keep themselves sexually pure,

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Speaker 2: and boys have a sexual drive that they can't help,

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Speaker 2: and so women are the break system to make sure

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Speaker 2: they don't sin before they get married. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of the time it involves an abstinence pledge of I'm

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Speaker 2: at staining from sex before where you get married. And

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Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties it was a lot about

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Speaker 2: you know, teenagers and young people and dating and making

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Speaker 2: that choice for themselves. In the world I grew up in,

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Speaker 2: I took it a step further to be enforced by

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Speaker 2: fathers and to go even beyond sexual purity to emotional purity.

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Speaker 2: So you had to not sin with your feelings either,

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Speaker 2: So you had to not give affection to anyone until

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Speaker 2: you were betrothed to get married, and so that's all

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Speaker 2: part of modesty and covering up your body and not

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Speaker 2: being not being too sexy, but not being too ugly either,

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Speaker 2: because you want to make sure you get married to

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Speaker 2: continue this whole world.

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Speaker 3: Talk to me about just that idea of the rule

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Speaker 3: of being good.

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Speaker 2: This is something I still struggle with. I think because

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Speaker 2: I grew up this way. My brain was formed around

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Speaker 2: this idea of everything's black and white. There's good people

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Speaker 2: and bad people, and you can be either good or

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Speaker 2: bad and there's no gray area. And you know, you

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Speaker 2: grow up with this idea that there's eternal hell waiting

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Speaker 2: for you if you're not one of the good people.

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Speaker 2: And so I was terrified my whole childhood of not

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Speaker 2: being one of the chosen ones. And so I tried

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Speaker 2: really hard to be good and it never seemed to

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Speaker 2: be enough. But that fit in with the theology too,

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Speaker 2: of this idea that you are depraved from birth and

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Speaker 2: you don't deserve God's love and you have to continue

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Speaker 2: repenting and asking forgiveness for your entire life. That was

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Speaker 2: really difficult as a young kid because I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to lose my family. I didn't want to go to

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Speaker 2: hell without them. I didn't want to suffer, and I

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Speaker 2: developed OCD through this just obsessing about praying and how

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Speaker 2: to communion correctly and how to do all these things right.

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Speaker 2: And that's where my OCD issues started with the religious stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's an extraordinary amount of self monitoring that's

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Speaker 3: instilled in you, isn't it. Kate, tell me about this

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Speaker 3: idea about being a witness.

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Speaker 2: So to be a witness means to shine a light

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Speaker 2: into the world and show people who aren't in the

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Speaker 2: church what it's like to be God's children and to

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Speaker 2: share the gospel with them so that they will join

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Speaker 2: you in God's kingdom. And so for me as a woman,

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Speaker 2: that mates mostly meant being modest, obeying, being submissive, and

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Speaker 2: showing up as this quiet, meek girl in the world

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Speaker 2: to show the contrast between me and so called secular

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Speaker 2: girls and how they were dressing and acting, and so

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Speaker 2: just my behavior was supposed to be a witnes to

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Speaker 2: other people.

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Speaker 3: Did you ever feel jealousy, envy, curiosity, interest about those

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Speaker 3: secular girls that were your age or you know, or

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Speaker 3: even the way that young girls will look up to

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Speaker 3: teenage girls and get kind of excited about what that

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Speaker 3: might look like when it's your turn, or did you

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Speaker 3: look at them through the lens that you'd been taught

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Speaker 3: your whole life with a bit of scorn or a

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Speaker 3: bit of you know, judgmental righteousness, or a bit of both.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a bit of both. I think I

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Speaker 2: had these conflicting emotions of desire for following my feelings

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Speaker 2: and enjoying things like music. I remember seeing a Spice

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Speaker 2: Girl's poster in a neighbor's house and I was like,

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Speaker 2: who are they? And they look really exciting, but also

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Speaker 2: something about them is really dangerous, it seems like, and

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Speaker 2: so it's very intriguing, But I had never heard a

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Speaker 2: Spice Girl's song. At the same time, I was really

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Speaker 2: good at following the rules, and I would try to

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Speaker 2: like in state that on other neighbor kids. So when

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Speaker 2: Halloween came along, I was very much preaching to the

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Speaker 2: other kids that this was Satan's holiday and that's why

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Speaker 2: I didn't go trigg or treating, and I pretty much

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure all the kids hated me for being

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Speaker 2: such a stuck up little girl, But really, what I

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Speaker 2: was trying to do was fit into any kind of

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Speaker 2: belonging that I could have because I wasn't really allowed

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Speaker 2: to belong with the other kids.

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Speaker 3: So I imagine that your family didn't hand candy out

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Speaker 3: on Halloween.

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Speaker 2: No, we were. We were told to hide in the

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Speaker 2: basement and turn off the lights.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that must been scary. Yeah, what did

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Speaker 3: you think was happening out in the streets.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I love Halloween, now it's I get a

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Speaker 2: little nervous when people come to my door and ask

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Speaker 2: for candy, But I'm trying to get over my instinctual

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Speaker 2: fear of it. It's just kids in costumes.

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Speaker 3: You just throw it at them and run right. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: talk to me a little bit about why homeschooling is

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Speaker 3: so important to this movement and what you were learning

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Speaker 3: and what you weren't learning.

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Speaker 2: The Christian homeschooling world frames it like it is protection

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Speaker 2: and keeping children safe from harms like drugs and you know,

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Speaker 2: early sex and STDs and learning about evolution. But really

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Speaker 2: it's what's happening is indoctrination. There's no access to outside information,

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Speaker 2: so there's no nothing to contrast what you're learning with.

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Speaker 2: And also I didn't have any access to things like

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Speaker 2: mandatory reporters or support for any kind of special needs

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Speaker 2: that kids would have in the homeschooling world that didn't exist,

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Speaker 2: and so that was a way to control kids. And

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot of things through the lens of

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Speaker 2: Christian patriarchy, but also white supremacy. They would never have

302
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Speaker 2: come out and said we're racist, but we learned that

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Speaker 2: the Southern Army, the Confederate Army, was the oppressed side

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Speaker 2: of the Civil War, and that slavery wasn't as bad

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Speaker 2: as you think. So those kinds of ideas were common.

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Speaker 2: I grew up thinking that Martin Luther King Junior was

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Speaker 2: a bad person until I got out and went to college,

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Speaker 2: and so I didn't have any other I had no

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Speaker 2: way of checking what I was being told.

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Speaker 3: I want to read a passage from your book that

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Speaker 3: really struck me. There were many things I had yet

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Speaker 3: to learn, how to use a tampon, how sex works,

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Speaker 3: how to set up my own email account. I never

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Speaker 3: heard the F word. I didn't know what kind of

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Speaker 3: music I really loved to listen to, or if I

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Speaker 3: actually wanted to get married and have children. I had

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Speaker 3: no idea what I was supposed to do with the

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Speaker 3: knowledge I had and didn't have. Kate, that must have

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Speaker 3: been a bewildering state of mind to exist in. Did

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Speaker 3: you share those thoughts.

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Speaker 2: With anybody, No, definitely not. I think I learned early

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Speaker 2: on that questioning things or talking back to my dad

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Speaker 2: and his rules was not going to end well. And

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Speaker 2: so I did have a journal off and on throughout

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Speaker 2: my childhood, and so I would write some of those

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Speaker 2: questions there. But if I did something wrong in my perspective,

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Speaker 2: like if I wrote about a crush I was having,

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Speaker 2: I would go back and erase it all because I

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Speaker 2: was told that's not okay to have feelings right, that

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Speaker 2: emotional purity thing. So I was always self policing and

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Speaker 2: trying to keep it internal, which is very unhealthy. I

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Speaker 2: think that's why I struggled so much with mental health,

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Speaker 2: because I didn't have any of those outlets.

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Speaker 3: And your mother tell me a little bit about her

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Speaker 3: in your book. She seems to have very an instinct

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Speaker 3: for nurturing, an instinct for care, to be acting at

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Speaker 3: from a place of love for you inasmuch as she could.

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Speaker 3: But she also didn't seem like someone you could go

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Speaker 3: to with these big questions or these big doubts.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I had the language for this, But

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Speaker 2: I witnessed how my mother submitted to my father and

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Speaker 2: that no matter what happened when he wasn't around, it

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Speaker 2: would get back to him. And she was told to

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Speaker 2: do that. It wasn't something that maybe she had clear

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Speaker 2: choice about. So when we understand the coercive control, I

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Speaker 2: think she had choice, and I think she made some

347
00:20:55,445 --> 00:20:59,045
Speaker 2: wrong choices. But also she was in this system that

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Speaker 2: made it really difficult for her to be that outlet

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Speaker 2: for us as kids, And so I knew that if

350
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Speaker 2: I told her something, it would get back to my dad.

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Speaker 3: You didn't have a safe person or a person that

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Speaker 3: you knew would hold your secrets or honor your vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: No. Yeah, And that's why I think I'm obsessed about

354
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Speaker 2: praying to God, because I was hoping God might be

355
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Speaker 2: forgiving hopefully.

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Speaker 3: After this short break. What exactly is a stay at

357
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Speaker 3: home daughter and what did that mean for Kate stay

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Speaker 3: with us. Tell me a little bit about the idea

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Speaker 3: of a stay at home daughter and when it dawned

360
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Speaker 3: on you that you were one?

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Speaker 2: So Vision four mean that idea really popular. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure if they created it, because I'm sure there were

363
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Speaker 2: stay at home daughters probably in Bill Gothard's World. But

364
00:22:02,885 --> 00:22:06,685
Speaker 2: the idea was, if women are only to be wives

365
00:22:06,685 --> 00:22:10,885
Speaker 2: and mothers, why would we send girls to college if

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Speaker 2: it's not going to help them with anything, and if

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Speaker 2: they're just going to get influenced by the world or

368
00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:21,845
Speaker 2: possibly assaulted on campus outside of the protection of their fathers.

369
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Speaker 2: And so that's where the term stay at home daughter

370
00:22:25,365 --> 00:22:29,845
Speaker 2: became more popular. Instead of being a stay at home

371
00:22:29,885 --> 00:22:31,925
Speaker 2: wife or mother, you were a stay at home daughter

372
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Speaker 2: and practicing to be that wife and mother one day.

373
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Speaker 2: So girls like me, we stayed home after we turned eighteen.

374
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Speaker 2: We were supposed to serve our fathers and learn how

375
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Speaker 2: to take care of him, kind of like a wife would,

376
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Speaker 2: but I mean like hopefully in most cases without the

377
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Speaker 2: actual wife part. So I would make my dad coffee,

378
00:22:52,365 --> 00:22:55,285
Speaker 2: I would iron his clothes, I would help him with

379
00:22:55,325 --> 00:22:59,245
Speaker 2: his business. I was trying to learn how to be

380
00:22:59,365 --> 00:23:03,645
Speaker 2: that kind of submissive woman by practicing with my dad,

381
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Speaker 2: which is really fucked up in my opinion. And I

382
00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:11,605
Speaker 2: stayed in that stay home daughter role until I was

383
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Speaker 2: twenty five because years of indoctrination and isolation. I didn't

384
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Speaker 2: know I had other options. I didn't have any resources

385
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Speaker 2: at all. And so it took me a long time

386
00:23:24,725 --> 00:23:28,445
Speaker 2: to realize that I was being trapped and to actually

387
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Speaker 2: figure out how to leave. But during that time, there

388
00:23:31,685 --> 00:23:33,845
Speaker 2: was a lot of other state home daughters I was

389
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Speaker 2: friends with, and it became this feeling of countercultural. We're

390
00:23:39,645 --> 00:23:42,725
Speaker 2: changing the world. One day, we're going to get married

391
00:23:42,805 --> 00:23:46,485
Speaker 2: and start the new generation. But that marriage never really

392
00:23:47,805 --> 00:23:49,885
Speaker 2: came to be for me, and so it gave me

393
00:23:49,965 --> 00:23:52,045
Speaker 2: more time to think about what I was really doing

394
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Speaker 2: with my life.

395
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Speaker 3: And I do want to get to that. But you

396
00:23:55,965 --> 00:24:00,285
Speaker 3: were sixteen and still very much under the thumb of

397
00:24:00,365 --> 00:24:03,045
Speaker 3: your father and the strictures that have been guiding your

398
00:24:03,045 --> 00:24:06,205
Speaker 3: life up to this point, and you decide to officially

399
00:24:06,325 --> 00:24:09,605
Speaker 3: join the church. Can you explain what that means? Given

400
00:24:09,925 --> 00:24:12,925
Speaker 3: obviously you were a member of this church guided every

401
00:24:12,925 --> 00:24:15,285
Speaker 3: element of your life, but what did it mean to

402
00:24:15,365 --> 00:24:16,485
Speaker 3: officially join.

403
00:24:17,605 --> 00:24:20,565
Speaker 2: And the Presbyterian world, you're baptized as a baby, and

404
00:24:20,605 --> 00:24:24,045
Speaker 2: you become part of the Covenant, and then when you

405
00:24:24,165 --> 00:24:27,965
Speaker 2: become old enough to make vowels to the church, then

406
00:24:28,085 --> 00:24:32,125
Speaker 2: you become what they call a communicant member. So at

407
00:24:32,125 --> 00:24:34,525
Speaker 2: that point you're allowed to take communion, but you have

408
00:24:34,645 --> 00:24:37,165
Speaker 2: to take these four vowels at the front of the

409
00:24:37,245 --> 00:24:40,965
Speaker 2: church in public in order to do that. But I

410
00:24:41,125 --> 00:24:43,605
Speaker 2: was kind of a late bloomer. I most of my

411
00:24:43,685 --> 00:24:48,085
Speaker 2: friends had already joined the church earlier. I was dragging

412
00:24:48,125 --> 00:24:52,125
Speaker 2: my feet because I had always had these doubts about

413
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:57,125
Speaker 2: me being chosen. It wasn't really much about the religion

414
00:24:57,245 --> 00:25:02,205
Speaker 2: more as I was afraid that I wasn't loved by God,

415
00:25:02,285 --> 00:25:05,405
Speaker 2: and so that must mean I wasn't if I was

416
00:25:05,525 --> 00:25:08,685
Speaker 2: even having that thought. So it became this very OCD

417
00:25:09,805 --> 00:25:13,605
Speaker 2: feeling about faith. So I push it off for as

418
00:25:13,645 --> 00:25:14,365
Speaker 2: long as I could.

419
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Speaker 3: And it was around this time that you did develop OCD.

420
00:25:18,685 --> 00:25:20,165
Speaker 3: What did that look like for you? How did that

421
00:25:20,205 --> 00:25:21,005
Speaker 3: manifest for you?

422
00:25:21,405 --> 00:25:27,285
Speaker 2: It revolved a lot around anxiety and fear of if

423
00:25:27,325 --> 00:25:29,645
Speaker 2: I'm not chosen by God, or if God doesn't love me.

424
00:25:30,285 --> 00:25:32,525
Speaker 2: The instant I die, I'm going to hell and there's

425
00:25:32,565 --> 00:25:37,205
Speaker 2: no second chance, right, So obsessing about safety, not leaving

426
00:25:37,285 --> 00:25:40,085
Speaker 2: the house, making sure I had my seatbelt on, being

427
00:25:40,165 --> 00:25:42,885
Speaker 2: terrified of going in an airplane, so just wanting to

428
00:25:42,925 --> 00:25:46,965
Speaker 2: stay in my room all the time and praying constantly

429
00:25:47,645 --> 00:25:50,365
Speaker 2: for God to forgive me. And so it just became

430
00:25:50,445 --> 00:25:53,485
Speaker 2: like that repetitive ritual part of OCD, but it was

431
00:25:53,645 --> 00:25:57,685
Speaker 2: very religious. Now I understand there's a term called scrupulosity,

432
00:25:57,805 --> 00:26:00,605
Speaker 2: which is what I was experiencing. It's kind of like

433
00:26:00,645 --> 00:26:06,285
Speaker 2: an ethical or religious OCD where you're obsessing about making

434
00:26:06,285 --> 00:26:08,405
Speaker 2: the right choices and being a good person.

435
00:26:09,325 --> 00:26:16,525
Speaker 3: Our father eventually became recognized as a courtship expert. Tell

436
00:26:16,565 --> 00:26:17,325
Speaker 3: me what that means.

437
00:26:17,965 --> 00:26:22,005
Speaker 2: So in creation patriarchy, we don't date because that would

438
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:25,725
Speaker 2: be practice for divorce because you're not being modest, you're

439
00:26:25,765 --> 00:26:32,365
Speaker 2: not having pure feelings. And instead we practiced courtship. And

440
00:26:32,485 --> 00:26:37,125
Speaker 2: my dad he brought this version of courtship to our

441
00:26:37,205 --> 00:26:40,205
Speaker 2: church that was created by a man named John Thompson.

442
00:26:40,325 --> 00:26:45,405
Speaker 2: He wrote this pamphlet called Pathway to Christian Marriage. Still around.

443
00:26:45,485 --> 00:26:48,005
Speaker 2: You can still get it on the internet, so I'm

444
00:26:48,005 --> 00:26:51,565
Speaker 2: sure people are still following it. And it was very strict.

445
00:26:51,565 --> 00:26:55,685
Speaker 2: It had a lot of questions for fathers to moderate

446
00:26:55,765 --> 00:27:00,445
Speaker 2: between the young man and the young woman. Always straight couple.

447
00:27:00,605 --> 00:27:02,045
Speaker 2: I don't know if that needs to be said, but

448
00:27:03,205 --> 00:27:07,165
Speaker 2: never anything but that. And there was never alone time.

449
00:27:07,245 --> 00:27:10,325
Speaker 2: You always had to have a chaperone. No feelings. You

450
00:27:10,365 --> 00:27:13,605
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to talk about a lot of things anything

451
00:27:13,645 --> 00:27:17,005
Speaker 2: that would build an affectionate bond was off limits. So

452
00:27:17,045 --> 00:27:19,965
Speaker 2: it was very much talking about theology and really basic

453
00:27:20,045 --> 00:27:23,165
Speaker 2: small talk, so not really getting to know the other person.

454
00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:26,685
Speaker 2: And you would do this for a few months, and

455
00:27:26,725 --> 00:27:29,645
Speaker 2: then your father would decide if you were allowed to

456
00:27:29,645 --> 00:27:33,765
Speaker 2: get married or betrothed. So then once you said that,

457
00:27:33,805 --> 00:27:36,805
Speaker 2: then you were allowed to get betrothed to each other,

458
00:27:36,885 --> 00:27:41,085
Speaker 2: but the woman. It was like this feeling of property

459
00:27:41,165 --> 00:27:43,925
Speaker 2: because when you got betrothed, you had to sign a

460
00:27:43,965 --> 00:27:47,365
Speaker 2: covenant that you were going to marry this man in

461
00:27:47,405 --> 00:27:51,005
Speaker 2: like a vow, and then once you got married, your

462
00:27:51,045 --> 00:27:55,765
Speaker 2: father would transfer his so called headship over to your husband,

463
00:27:56,445 --> 00:28:01,125
Speaker 2: which really was more about property rights instead of any

464
00:28:01,205 --> 00:28:02,445
Speaker 2: kind of protection.

465
00:28:03,325 --> 00:28:07,005
Speaker 3: An exchange of goods. Yeah, you also referred to this

466
00:28:07,085 --> 00:28:09,245
Speaker 3: sometimes as father led dating.

467
00:28:09,485 --> 00:28:10,005
Speaker 2: Yeah.

468
00:28:10,405 --> 00:28:14,365
Speaker 3: You observed your sister, your older sister, Alison, experience what

469
00:28:14,405 --> 00:28:18,525
Speaker 3: you could describe as an arranged marriage. Is that scary

470
00:28:18,885 --> 00:28:20,565
Speaker 3: to watch that happen to her?

471
00:28:21,725 --> 00:28:25,485
Speaker 2: I think it taught me a lot of what could

472
00:28:25,565 --> 00:28:29,885
Speaker 2: happen in this world. It was really difficult because I

473
00:28:29,885 --> 00:28:36,085
Speaker 2: didn't understand how coercive control works. I was believing everything

474
00:28:36,125 --> 00:28:39,005
Speaker 2: I was being told At the same time, I watched

475
00:28:39,005 --> 00:28:41,685
Speaker 2: my sister get married to someone that I could tell

476
00:28:41,725 --> 00:28:45,125
Speaker 2: she didn't really like that much. He was just like

477
00:28:45,165 --> 00:28:48,805
Speaker 2: my dad. He wasn't very nice to me or my

478
00:28:48,845 --> 00:28:54,325
Speaker 2: younger brother. We just fell off about him. And I

479
00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:57,045
Speaker 2: remember my sister crying on her wedding day and it

480
00:28:57,125 --> 00:28:58,325
Speaker 2: was really hard to watch.

481
00:28:59,205 --> 00:29:00,965
Speaker 3: Could do you mind if I ask if she's still

482
00:29:01,325 --> 00:29:02,845
Speaker 3: married to that man?

483
00:29:03,125 --> 00:29:05,125
Speaker 2: No? So this was a long you know, it's been

484
00:29:05,165 --> 00:29:08,805
Speaker 2: a while. She had five kids. She did the same

485
00:29:08,885 --> 00:29:12,485
Speaker 2: thing that did. She homeschooled them, She did all followed

486
00:29:12,525 --> 00:29:16,925
Speaker 2: all the rules, and her husband was still abusive. And

487
00:29:17,365 --> 00:29:20,965
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of her because she got out. She

488
00:29:21,085 --> 00:29:23,365
Speaker 2: got all of her kids out, and she has a

489
00:29:23,365 --> 00:29:27,845
Speaker 2: full custody of her children and they have just like

490
00:29:28,205 --> 00:29:31,925
Speaker 2: just watching them go from that abusive home to being

491
00:29:31,965 --> 00:29:36,165
Speaker 2: liberated has is just breathtaking to me because they went

492
00:29:36,205 --> 00:29:37,125
Speaker 2: through really hard time.

493
00:29:37,365 --> 00:29:39,885
Speaker 3: So you did stay home after you turned eighteen when

494
00:29:39,885 --> 00:29:42,885
Speaker 3: most of your peers would be going off to college

495
00:29:42,925 --> 00:29:46,885
Speaker 3: and getting jobs. You were waiting for your husband. You

496
00:29:47,045 --> 00:29:48,525
Speaker 3: right that you didn't even know that you had the

497
00:29:48,645 --> 00:29:55,365
Speaker 3: legal right to leave home at eighteen. How does somebody

498
00:29:55,525 --> 00:29:59,205
Speaker 3: living in the modern world, you know, television and the

499
00:29:59,245 --> 00:30:05,605
Speaker 3: Internet stay I suppose that that distant from what we

500
00:30:05,645 --> 00:30:08,005
Speaker 3: would consider just the basics.

501
00:30:08,485 --> 00:30:10,725
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of factors to that. There's

502
00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:16,845
Speaker 2: the isolation, there's the indoctrination, the limit of information. There

503
00:30:17,005 --> 00:30:21,405
Speaker 2: was the fact that when the Internet came out, we

504
00:30:21,485 --> 00:30:26,405
Speaker 2: didn't have access to that unschaperoned, right or unguarded. So

505
00:30:26,525 --> 00:30:29,805
Speaker 2: I didn't have access to internet by myself, even when

506
00:30:29,845 --> 00:30:33,685
Speaker 2: I was eighteen, and I didn't have a driver's license

507
00:30:33,685 --> 00:30:36,285
Speaker 2: at that point, I didn't have access to my birth

508
00:30:36,325 --> 00:30:41,085
Speaker 2: certificate or Social Security card. A lot of stay at

509
00:30:41,085 --> 00:30:45,085
Speaker 2: home daughters never get that, or sometimes their parents never

510
00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:47,805
Speaker 2: got them a birth certificate because they don't believe in government.

511
00:30:48,525 --> 00:30:51,565
Speaker 2: So I was one of the lucky ones that I

512
00:30:51,605 --> 00:30:56,765
Speaker 2: have some documents, but a lot of times you have nothing, and.

513
00:30:57,205 --> 00:31:00,085
Speaker 3: You almost don't exist in the eyes of the government

514
00:31:00,165 --> 00:31:04,005
Speaker 3: or the state, so you don't even consider what rights

515
00:31:04,405 --> 00:31:06,725
Speaker 3: right that government might give you right.

516
00:31:06,805 --> 00:31:09,645
Speaker 2: So you don't know as a kid growing up that

517
00:31:09,725 --> 00:31:14,245
Speaker 2: you have those rights because you're told what your family

518
00:31:14,285 --> 00:31:19,085
Speaker 2: believes as if that's you know, hard and fast truth

519
00:31:19,165 --> 00:31:24,445
Speaker 2: for everybody. And then the government's perspective is you're an

520
00:31:24,485 --> 00:31:28,845
Speaker 2: adult living choosing to live with your parents past eighteen,

521
00:31:28,925 --> 00:31:32,445
Speaker 2: which does happen, right, I mean, there's lots of college

522
00:31:32,525 --> 00:31:36,685
Speaker 2: kids who still live with their parents. It's not impossible.

523
00:31:37,045 --> 00:31:40,405
Speaker 2: But what they're not seeing is that kids who grew

524
00:31:40,445 --> 00:31:43,005
Speaker 2: up in this kind of world, they don't understand that

525
00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:47,365
Speaker 2: they can leave. So it's more of a coerced entrapment

526
00:31:47,805 --> 00:31:50,525
Speaker 2: instead of I'm choosing to live with my parents.

527
00:31:51,205 --> 00:31:55,725
Speaker 3: So you eventually moved to Hawaii, and as you've described,

528
00:31:56,205 --> 00:31:57,925
Speaker 3: you know your role at this time, you describe it

529
00:31:57,925 --> 00:32:01,525
Speaker 3: as being a kind of perpetual girl, and that you were,

530
00:32:01,765 --> 00:32:03,925
Speaker 3: you know, even though you were a young adult living

531
00:32:03,965 --> 00:32:06,205
Speaker 3: at home, and you know, as you as you described,

532
00:32:06,285 --> 00:32:09,485
Speaker 3: kind of practicing being a wife by serving your dad.

533
00:32:10,405 --> 00:32:13,925
Speaker 3: Can you walk me through almost like a typical day

534
00:32:13,925 --> 00:32:15,765
Speaker 3: in your life at this time. I really want to

535
00:32:15,845 --> 00:32:18,845
Speaker 3: understand what the contours and the shape of your world was.

536
00:32:20,525 --> 00:32:23,325
Speaker 2: In some ways, waking up in Hawaii is a very

537
00:32:23,325 --> 00:32:27,965
Speaker 2: privileged place to be. But also when I first we

538
00:32:28,165 --> 00:32:30,365
Speaker 2: first moved there, I was eighteen and I didn't have

539
00:32:30,725 --> 00:32:32,845
Speaker 2: a license, like I said, or a car or anything

540
00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:36,245
Speaker 2: like that. So I would wake up my dad would

541
00:32:36,285 --> 00:32:39,805
Speaker 2: be at his new job. I didn't have homeschooling to

542
00:32:39,845 --> 00:32:42,485
Speaker 2: do anymore, and so I spent a lot of time

543
00:32:42,485 --> 00:32:46,845
Speaker 2: by myself reading, feeling sad. I didn't understand why I

544
00:32:46,885 --> 00:32:50,965
Speaker 2: was so depressed if I was following God's way, but

545
00:32:51,045 --> 00:32:54,565
Speaker 2: I was really depressed. And I mean that day to

546
00:32:54,645 --> 00:32:58,045
Speaker 2: day changed over time as I got older. I had

547
00:32:58,085 --> 00:33:01,925
Speaker 2: a courtship that didn't last. I became a pianist for

548
00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:07,485
Speaker 2: the church. My dad eventually let me teach piano lessons,

549
00:33:07,845 --> 00:33:11,405
Speaker 2: and so over time I built some of those skills

550
00:33:12,045 --> 00:33:13,925
Speaker 2: that I needed to leave. But it took a long

551
00:33:14,045 --> 00:33:17,725
Speaker 2: time to get that kind of confidence that I could

552
00:33:17,805 --> 00:33:18,405
Speaker 2: be an adult.

553
00:33:18,885 --> 00:33:20,805
Speaker 3: You mentioned a brief courtship.

554
00:33:22,005 --> 00:33:27,365
Speaker 2: Tell me about will, So, I mean, it feels like

555
00:33:27,405 --> 00:33:29,365
Speaker 2: a movie to me when I look back on it.

556
00:33:29,365 --> 00:33:34,085
Speaker 2: It was like we had started this tiny church in

557
00:33:34,165 --> 00:33:38,205
Speaker 2: Kawai with some other quote unquote like minded people.

558
00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:41,005
Speaker 3: And so this was kind of going back to what

559
00:33:41,045 --> 00:33:43,405
Speaker 3: you had done in Colorado, right where your dad and

560
00:33:44,245 --> 00:33:47,165
Speaker 3: a group of families kind of said, yes, we'll just

561
00:33:47,205 --> 00:33:49,965
Speaker 3: do this ourselves, right, we know what we want. The

562
00:33:50,045 --> 00:33:53,885
Speaker 3: church that we're going to isn't providing that back to

563
00:33:53,965 --> 00:33:56,525
Speaker 3: basics under our own roofs, right, right.

564
00:33:56,605 --> 00:34:00,045
Speaker 2: We eventually got connected with a denomination that funded us.

565
00:34:00,085 --> 00:34:02,005
Speaker 2: But at first it was just a bunch of people

566
00:34:02,285 --> 00:34:05,965
Speaker 2: in our living room. So he showed up to church

567
00:34:06,005 --> 00:34:09,045
Speaker 2: one day and we had a very tiny group of people.

568
00:34:09,365 --> 00:34:13,085
Speaker 2: There were no other people. There were barely anybody my age,

569
00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:17,125
Speaker 2: much less an eligible man that I could marry. And

570
00:34:17,205 --> 00:34:18,685
Speaker 2: I was supposed to get married, so it was like,

571
00:34:18,765 --> 00:34:21,085
Speaker 2: what am I even doing here? But I was told

572
00:34:21,125 --> 00:34:23,285
Speaker 2: God will bring you a husband, right, And so one

573
00:34:23,325 --> 00:34:26,365
Speaker 2: day this man appears. He's got blue eyes and curly

574
00:34:26,405 --> 00:34:28,205
Speaker 2: brown hair, and I'm like, oh, well, God brought me

575
00:34:28,245 --> 00:34:31,525
Speaker 2: the husband. And he was really funny, and I loved

576
00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:34,165
Speaker 2: being around him. He had all this energy, and he

577
00:34:34,205 --> 00:34:40,365
Speaker 2: loved telling stories, and I quickly you really felt drawn

578
00:34:40,405 --> 00:34:45,765
Speaker 2: to him. And he and my brother and I were friends,

579
00:34:45,885 --> 00:34:49,565
Speaker 2: and so this was that was considered okay because there

580
00:34:49,645 --> 00:34:52,525
Speaker 2: was three of us. It was friendship. It wasn't anything else,

581
00:34:53,005 --> 00:34:56,125
Speaker 2: and we hung out a lot until one day he

582
00:34:56,245 --> 00:34:58,925
Speaker 2: asked my father to have a courtship with me. And

583
00:34:58,925 --> 00:35:01,205
Speaker 2: this was a surprise to me because he had never

584
00:35:01,285 --> 00:35:04,045
Speaker 2: mentioned that and he shouldn't have. He was not allowed

585
00:35:04,045 --> 00:35:07,125
Speaker 2: to talk about that with me. So my dad informed

586
00:35:07,165 --> 00:35:10,925
Speaker 2: me that Will wanted to have a court and of

587
00:35:10,965 --> 00:35:14,205
Speaker 2: course I said, yes, I thought this was my way out,

588
00:35:14,805 --> 00:35:18,325
Speaker 2: and we entered into that whole process that I mentioned earlier.

589
00:35:18,925 --> 00:35:22,005
Speaker 3: You did start to have feelings for Will, which your

590
00:35:22,045 --> 00:35:25,245
Speaker 3: dad was not happy about and cautioned you about it.

591
00:35:25,285 --> 00:35:27,925
Speaker 3: And I want to read from your book what he

592
00:35:28,005 --> 00:35:31,165
Speaker 3: said to you as a bit of an admonishment or

593
00:35:31,205 --> 00:35:34,045
Speaker 3: a reminder to you about what your role was here. Right,

594
00:35:34,125 --> 00:35:37,245
Speaker 3: he said, the reason we do courtship is because it's

595
00:35:37,285 --> 00:35:43,005
Speaker 3: supposed to prevent emotional intimacy until a marriage commitment. And

596
00:35:43,045 --> 00:35:45,205
Speaker 3: you don't know yet if he's the one you're going

597
00:35:45,245 --> 00:35:48,485
Speaker 3: to marry. What would you say to his future wife

598
00:35:48,725 --> 00:35:52,485
Speaker 3: if he's not the one for you? So much to

599
00:35:52,605 --> 00:35:57,125
Speaker 3: unpack there. In this courtship model, feelings and emotions were

600
00:35:57,205 --> 00:35:59,485
Speaker 3: never meant to come into play. You weren't even allowed

601
00:35:59,525 --> 00:36:00,525
Speaker 3: to compliment each other.

602
00:36:02,085 --> 00:36:04,765
Speaker 2: Right, That would have been too personal, It would have

603
00:36:05,205 --> 00:36:06,565
Speaker 2: made them like you too much.

604
00:36:07,605 --> 00:36:10,885
Speaker 3: And so a lot of chaperone, a lot of I guess,

605
00:36:10,925 --> 00:36:13,805
Speaker 3: guided conversations or how did you get to know each other?

606
00:36:14,445 --> 00:36:17,765
Speaker 2: So once a week we had the moderated conversation with

607
00:36:17,805 --> 00:36:20,845
Speaker 2: my father. We would talk about theology and how to

608
00:36:20,845 --> 00:36:24,245
Speaker 2: homeschool kids and stuff like that, and then we saw

609
00:36:24,285 --> 00:36:27,125
Speaker 2: each other at church. Those were the two main things

610
00:36:27,165 --> 00:36:30,205
Speaker 2: that we would do. And then occasionally I was allowed

611
00:36:30,245 --> 00:36:32,805
Speaker 2: to go spend time with him if my brother was around.

612
00:36:32,885 --> 00:36:35,525
Speaker 2: My younger brother, so he got the scape he got

613
00:36:35,525 --> 00:36:37,605
Speaker 2: to be a scapegoat of like hanging out with us.

614
00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:42,405
Speaker 3: I patronizing to have your younger brother be considered a

615
00:36:42,525 --> 00:36:45,645
Speaker 3: suitable chaperone or a you know, to have that kind

616
00:36:45,685 --> 00:36:49,565
Speaker 3: of power over you. Your dad did call off that courtship.

617
00:36:49,845 --> 00:36:54,485
Speaker 2: Why, Yeah, we had a very long considering my other

618
00:36:54,525 --> 00:36:58,645
Speaker 2: friends courtships. It was a long courtship because different reasons,

619
00:36:58,685 --> 00:37:04,445
Speaker 2: mostly because he didn't have the job that my dad

620
00:37:04,485 --> 00:37:07,045
Speaker 2: wanted him to have, or a consistent job that my

621
00:37:07,125 --> 00:37:10,245
Speaker 2: dad wanted him to have, and so that was all

622
00:37:10,245 --> 00:37:12,605
Speaker 2: part of this process, was making sure that this new

623
00:37:12,645 --> 00:37:14,565
Speaker 2: man can provide for you, and so that was a

624
00:37:14,565 --> 00:37:18,005
Speaker 2: big issue among some other things. It just my dad

625
00:37:18,085 --> 00:37:21,525
Speaker 2: was like, this is not the right one. And I

626
00:37:21,525 --> 00:37:24,045
Speaker 2: had spent months thinking this is the man I'm going

627
00:37:24,125 --> 00:37:28,405
Speaker 2: to get married to, and I couldn't help feeling affection

628
00:37:28,525 --> 00:37:31,885
Speaker 2: for him because I was imagining that and I was

629
00:37:31,885 --> 00:37:33,525
Speaker 2: spending so much time with him and he was so

630
00:37:33,645 --> 00:37:36,165
Speaker 2: kind to me. Now I know that we didn't know

631
00:37:36,205 --> 00:37:39,045
Speaker 2: each other very well at all. So I was in

632
00:37:39,045 --> 00:37:42,805
Speaker 2: love with this idea of him. But when my dad

633
00:37:42,845 --> 00:37:45,645
Speaker 2: cut it off, it was it felt devastating it And

634
00:37:45,765 --> 00:37:48,085
Speaker 2: I mean I was twenty one and if already feeling

635
00:37:48,125 --> 00:37:52,645
Speaker 2: like I my life was over because this one man

636
00:37:52,725 --> 00:37:54,565
Speaker 2: didn't want to you know, wasn't going to get married

637
00:37:54,565 --> 00:37:56,885
Speaker 2: to me. And now I look back, and I was

638
00:37:56,925 --> 00:38:00,725
Speaker 2: so young and naive, but really it was so heartbreaking

639
00:38:01,445 --> 00:38:04,685
Speaker 2: to know that I might never get to choose who

640
00:38:04,765 --> 00:38:05,445
Speaker 2: I would be with.

641
00:38:06,605 --> 00:38:11,365
Speaker 3: And later you learned that Will was struggling under the

642
00:38:11,365 --> 00:38:15,405
Speaker 3: patriarchal system and framework in a whole different way. Tell

643
00:38:15,445 --> 00:38:17,045
Speaker 3: me a little bit about what you came to learn

644
00:38:17,125 --> 00:38:18,765
Speaker 3: about Will.

645
00:38:18,965 --> 00:38:23,365
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I didn't know this at the time, but

646
00:38:23,805 --> 00:38:27,645
Speaker 2: he is gay and he was growing up in the

647
00:38:27,725 --> 00:38:30,365
Speaker 2: same kind of family that I was, where he was

648
00:38:30,445 --> 00:38:33,165
Speaker 2: being oppressed for who he was or for who he is,

649
00:38:34,045 --> 00:38:37,925
Speaker 2: and he was trying to follow the rules too, And

650
00:38:37,965 --> 00:38:40,685
Speaker 2: I think we were both like parallel to each other,

651
00:38:41,005 --> 00:38:45,045
Speaker 2: struggling with this, you know, these confines and never getting

652
00:38:45,085 --> 00:38:48,325
Speaker 2: to know who each other was. And so i'm I know,

653
00:38:48,405 --> 00:38:50,285
Speaker 2: I'm glad we didn't get married. I don't think either

654
00:38:50,325 --> 00:38:59,525
Speaker 2: of us would have been happy in the long term.

655
00:38:55,965 --> 00:38:59,085
Speaker 3: When we come back. What finally convinced Kate to break

656
00:38:59,125 --> 00:39:01,845
Speaker 3: free from her father and her church? And when did

657
00:39:01,845 --> 00:39:04,685
Speaker 3: she realize that she'd been raised in a cult? Stay

658
00:39:04,725 --> 00:39:12,325
Speaker 3: with us? Time went on, this courtship with Will ended.

659
00:39:12,525 --> 00:39:15,725
Speaker 3: You're getting older, You're still a stay at home daughter,

660
00:39:16,805 --> 00:39:20,125
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, your mental health is really declining. You

661
00:39:20,205 --> 00:39:23,445
Speaker 3: develop a bit of a drinking habit at this time,

662
00:39:24,245 --> 00:39:26,685
Speaker 3: and then one night you decide you're going to start

663
00:39:26,725 --> 00:39:30,485
Speaker 3: to search for some things on Google. Yeah, what did

664
00:39:30,485 --> 00:39:33,285
Speaker 3: you enter into that search bar that first time?

665
00:39:33,445 --> 00:39:38,445
Speaker 2: Kate? So I finally got a laptop, and I was

666
00:39:38,525 --> 00:39:40,645
Speaker 2: again I had been trained to self police, so I

667
00:39:40,685 --> 00:39:43,285
Speaker 2: never looked anything up on the Internet. I only used

668
00:39:43,285 --> 00:39:47,605
Speaker 2: it to write on Microsoft Word. So I finally was

669
00:39:47,645 --> 00:39:51,485
Speaker 2: like really struggling with my mental health, like you said,

670
00:39:51,525 --> 00:39:55,045
Speaker 2: And I started sneaking to my parents' alcohol and I

671
00:39:55,085 --> 00:39:58,445
Speaker 2: was feeling very suicidal. And the way my dad was

672
00:39:58,485 --> 00:40:01,965
Speaker 2: treating me and talking to me, especially after that courtship,

673
00:40:02,125 --> 00:40:06,645
Speaker 2: it just escalated and I was really struggling, and so

674
00:40:07,005 --> 00:40:10,085
Speaker 2: I don't remember the words I typed there I must

675
00:40:10,085 --> 00:40:14,765
Speaker 2: have typed in how I was feeling or the way

676
00:40:14,805 --> 00:40:16,925
Speaker 2: my dad was treating me. But I came across this

677
00:40:17,085 --> 00:40:21,925
Speaker 2: article about different types of abuse, and I had only

678
00:40:21,965 --> 00:40:27,765
Speaker 2: ever heard that word in reference to physical abuse, which

679
00:40:27,765 --> 00:40:30,885
Speaker 2: I had always, you know, also experienced, but that was

680
00:40:31,365 --> 00:40:35,765
Speaker 2: called discipline, right, So like the language difference, I had

681
00:40:35,765 --> 00:40:40,125
Speaker 2: to learn the vocabulary of what abuse really is. And

682
00:40:40,285 --> 00:40:44,285
Speaker 2: through that I learned about psychological abuse and emotional abuse

683
00:40:45,045 --> 00:40:49,085
Speaker 2: and spiritual abuse, and I could check all the boxes.

684
00:40:49,245 --> 00:40:52,445
Speaker 2: And that was a little terrifying, to be honest, because

685
00:40:53,845 --> 00:40:57,685
Speaker 2: it's hard to grasp this idea that maybe you've been abused.

686
00:40:58,565 --> 00:41:02,805
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to be victimized, and so just having to

687
00:41:02,845 --> 00:41:05,885
Speaker 2: like process that and think that my dad is doing

688
00:41:05,885 --> 00:41:09,245
Speaker 2: these things to me, whether he is intending to or not,

689
00:41:09,365 --> 00:41:10,525
Speaker 2: that's what's happening.

690
00:41:11,325 --> 00:41:15,965
Speaker 3: And that that awareness really broke your world right open,

691
00:41:16,045 --> 00:41:18,445
Speaker 3: didn't it? And you you started to come up with

692
00:41:18,485 --> 00:41:21,565
Speaker 3: a plan. Do you remember what those What was on

693
00:41:21,605 --> 00:41:22,005
Speaker 3: your plan?

694
00:41:23,125 --> 00:41:25,925
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was very basic. It was I think, like,

695
00:41:26,165 --> 00:41:28,765
Speaker 2: get some money.

696
00:41:28,245 --> 00:41:29,925
Speaker 3: I've got it here, I might I might read it

697
00:41:29,965 --> 00:41:31,565
Speaker 3: to you and so you can tell me a little

698
00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:34,565
Speaker 3: bit about it, because it's it's great and it's I mean,

699
00:41:34,565 --> 00:41:37,045
Speaker 3: but it reflects so much of what you were struggling

700
00:41:37,205 --> 00:41:39,445
Speaker 3: and grappling with. So you came up with a with

701
00:41:39,485 --> 00:41:43,685
Speaker 3: a plan, essentially an escape plan. The plan was number one,

702
00:41:43,725 --> 00:41:47,325
Speaker 3: don't tell anyone the plan. Number two save up money

703
00:41:47,365 --> 00:41:51,445
Speaker 3: from teaching piano lessons, as you said, and babysitting. Number

704
00:41:51,445 --> 00:41:53,605
Speaker 3: three by a plane ticket to Philadelphia where your brother

705
00:41:53,685 --> 00:41:57,485
Speaker 3: Kyle lives. Number four, move in with Kyle. And then

706
00:41:57,525 --> 00:42:00,365
Speaker 3: you say, the plan got really hazy after that, Right,

707
00:42:00,445 --> 00:42:02,085
Speaker 3: what were you going to do? Go to college, get

708
00:42:02,125 --> 00:42:06,085
Speaker 3: a job, go on dates, you start a career. What

709
00:42:06,085 --> 00:42:08,645
Speaker 3: did it feel like to put that plan in place?

710
00:42:08,765 --> 00:42:15,045
Speaker 3: I mean that and of itself must have felt transgressive, dangerous, rebellious.

711
00:42:16,325 --> 00:42:18,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think I ever wrote it down

712
00:42:18,165 --> 00:42:21,485
Speaker 2: because my dad for sure would have found it. He

713
00:42:21,685 --> 00:42:24,205
Speaker 2: was known to search all of our rooms and look

714
00:42:24,205 --> 00:42:27,445
Speaker 2: through our journals just to keep tabs on us. So

715
00:42:27,525 --> 00:42:30,805
Speaker 2: it was not something that I put on the talkboard.

716
00:42:30,845 --> 00:42:33,245
Speaker 2: And so this is my plan for escape. It was

717
00:42:33,285 --> 00:42:34,925
Speaker 2: just in my head, like these are the things I

718
00:42:34,965 --> 00:42:38,125
Speaker 2: have to do to get out of this bad situation.

719
00:42:38,325 --> 00:42:40,885
Speaker 2: That's all. It felt like. It was like surviving this situation.

720
00:42:41,845 --> 00:42:43,085
Speaker 2: I just knew I didn't want to be in so

721
00:42:43,165 --> 00:42:44,005
Speaker 2: much pain anymore.

722
00:42:44,405 --> 00:42:46,605
Speaker 3: You were getting closer and closer to trying to figure

723
00:42:46,605 --> 00:42:49,565
Speaker 3: out what it might actually look like to leave, and

724
00:42:49,565 --> 00:42:52,325
Speaker 3: then he met David. At this point, you're twenty four

725
00:42:52,405 --> 00:42:56,045
Speaker 3: years old, still, as we know, living with your parents.

726
00:42:56,885 --> 00:43:02,125
Speaker 3: How did meeting David change the course that you had

727
00:43:02,405 --> 00:43:04,685
Speaker 3: just started to kind of map out for yourself?

728
00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:10,845
Speaker 2: He sparked in me this like for he was a

729
00:43:10,845 --> 00:43:13,765
Speaker 2: good friend of mine from church, and so we hadn't

730
00:43:13,765 --> 00:43:17,325
Speaker 2: thought of each other that way. But over time, as

731
00:43:17,365 --> 00:43:23,285
Speaker 2: things happen, I started feeling really strongly about him, and

732
00:43:23,325 --> 00:43:25,685
Speaker 2: I could sense that maybe he was feeling the same,

733
00:43:26,765 --> 00:43:31,805
Speaker 2: and I was thinking about leaving. Ever since that first courtship,

734
00:43:31,885 --> 00:43:36,125
Speaker 2: I had made this vow to myself that I will

735
00:43:36,165 --> 00:43:40,605
Speaker 2: never let my dad prevent me from having a loving

736
00:43:40,685 --> 00:43:44,645
Speaker 2: relationship again, and so I had just kept the back

737
00:43:44,685 --> 00:43:48,005
Speaker 2: of my head. And then I started feeling these things

738
00:43:48,045 --> 00:43:51,525
Speaker 2: about David, and I wanted to follow my heart and

739
00:43:51,565 --> 00:43:56,005
Speaker 2: not listen to all those authorities telling me how to

740
00:43:56,005 --> 00:43:59,685
Speaker 2: behave and so I just let things happen and stuck

741
00:43:59,725 --> 00:44:04,085
Speaker 2: around for that, and I put all that in the

742
00:44:04,165 --> 00:44:09,685
Speaker 2: book because I wanted to show how complicated leaving is.

743
00:44:10,845 --> 00:44:13,685
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure how that would have worked for

744
00:44:13,765 --> 00:44:16,645
Speaker 2: me to leave. Maybe eventually I would have figured it out,

745
00:44:17,765 --> 00:44:20,605
Speaker 2: but so many state home daughters don't leave unless they

746
00:44:20,605 --> 00:44:25,845
Speaker 2: get married, and so in some ways, having this relationship

747
00:44:25,925 --> 00:44:29,285
Speaker 2: gave me the emotional support I needed to have the

748
00:44:29,365 --> 00:44:32,725
Speaker 2: confidence to leave. And he went through all of that

749
00:44:32,845 --> 00:44:36,485
Speaker 2: with me. He confronted my dad and stood up for

750
00:44:36,605 --> 00:44:40,285
Speaker 2: me and was not okay with the abuse, and that

751
00:44:40,445 --> 00:44:42,125
Speaker 2: gave me courage.

752
00:44:42,445 --> 00:44:45,285
Speaker 3: And what's so interesting about this part of your story

753
00:44:45,365 --> 00:44:49,205
Speaker 3: is that on paper, David came from the church. He

754
00:44:49,405 --> 00:44:52,205
Speaker 3: believed in the same basics, right, the basics were all there,

755
00:44:52,205 --> 00:44:55,125
Speaker 3: and yet your dad disapproved. And it was a bit

756
00:44:55,165 --> 00:44:58,525
Speaker 3: of a battle of wills because you defied your father,

757
00:44:58,885 --> 00:45:00,765
Speaker 3: even just in the sense that you actually fell in

758
00:45:00,805 --> 00:45:04,085
Speaker 3: love with David, and yet you weren't quite ready. It

759
00:45:04,125 --> 00:45:06,405
Speaker 3: took you a while to be able to make a

760
00:45:06,405 --> 00:45:09,325
Speaker 3: decision for yourself, you and David that didn't involve your dad,

761
00:45:09,525 --> 00:45:12,765
Speaker 3: even though you were at that point really locking horns,

762
00:45:12,845 --> 00:45:16,965
Speaker 3: weren't you. What was that last straw for you where

763
00:45:16,965 --> 00:45:18,965
Speaker 3: you just said, I'm going to go make my life

764
00:45:18,965 --> 00:45:19,485
Speaker 3: with David.

765
00:45:21,485 --> 00:45:25,325
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think I was of the two

766
00:45:25,325 --> 00:45:27,045
Speaker 2: of us, of me and David, I was the more

767
00:45:28,205 --> 00:45:31,565
Speaker 2: kind of losing my losing my shit a little bit

768
00:45:31,605 --> 00:45:34,445
Speaker 2: and like I'm over all of this. And he grew

769
00:45:34,525 --> 00:45:36,965
Speaker 2: up a pastor's kid. He wanted to do things the

770
00:45:37,045 --> 00:45:40,045
Speaker 2: right way. He didn't want to cause trouble. At the

771
00:45:40,085 --> 00:45:42,045
Speaker 2: same time, I knew he really wanted to protect me,

772
00:45:42,125 --> 00:45:46,085
Speaker 2: So I think he wanted to start trying to do

773
00:45:46,285 --> 00:45:48,605
Speaker 2: this through my dad's way. So he did ask for

774
00:45:48,605 --> 00:45:51,445
Speaker 2: a courtship. My dad said yes, and then a week

775
00:45:51,525 --> 00:45:54,645
Speaker 2: later he changed his mind. And so for me, that

776
00:45:54,685 --> 00:45:57,965
Speaker 2: felt like my dad might do this for the rest

777
00:45:58,005 --> 00:46:01,725
Speaker 2: of my life, just saying yes or no, or never

778
00:46:01,805 --> 00:46:03,685
Speaker 2: letting me get married, because maybe he just wants me

779
00:46:03,765 --> 00:46:04,765
Speaker 2: to live here forever.

780
00:46:05,045 --> 00:46:06,925
Speaker 3: You're a fifty year old stay at home daughter.

781
00:46:07,005 --> 00:46:11,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, that literally happened. It does, And so I was

782
00:46:11,685 --> 00:46:16,805
Speaker 2: over it and we ended up secretly meeting up with

783
00:46:16,845 --> 00:46:19,405
Speaker 2: each other. He lived in the same neighborhood as I did,

784
00:46:20,245 --> 00:46:24,525
Speaker 2: and I was just ready to go. I didn't know

785
00:46:24,605 --> 00:46:27,765
Speaker 2: how now that I had this relationship, like, how do

786
00:46:27,845 --> 00:46:31,845
Speaker 2: I make this plan work? And so he had to

787
00:46:31,885 --> 00:46:34,845
Speaker 2: figure out what he wanted to do too. And we

788
00:46:34,885 --> 00:46:37,125
Speaker 2: made a plan together which was a little different than

789
00:46:37,165 --> 00:46:40,125
Speaker 2: my plan, but moving back to Michigan, which is where

790
00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:43,445
Speaker 2: he's originally from. He had some family here that we

791
00:46:43,485 --> 00:46:46,005
Speaker 2: could stay with while we got our feet on the ground,

792
00:46:46,605 --> 00:46:48,845
Speaker 2: and that's what we eventually went with. I moved here

793
00:46:48,885 --> 00:46:54,085
Speaker 2: to Michigan from Hawaii. For me, it was the impulse

794
00:46:54,125 --> 00:46:58,685
Speaker 2: to leave. Was my dad controlling me so much, not

795
00:46:58,805 --> 00:47:05,405
Speaker 2: letting me choose, and I became more outspoken about what

796
00:47:05,485 --> 00:47:10,845
Speaker 2: I wanted, and the reactions my dad gave me really

797
00:47:11,285 --> 00:47:14,485
Speaker 2: told me that I was in an unsafe situation. It

798
00:47:14,565 --> 00:47:18,525
Speaker 2: was no longer a tenable relationship with my dad, and

799
00:47:18,565 --> 00:47:21,245
Speaker 2: he became more and more aggressive. He would tell me

800
00:47:21,285 --> 00:47:23,085
Speaker 2: things like you can think what you want, but you

801
00:47:23,125 --> 00:47:26,445
Speaker 2: can't act on it, and I just started to believe

802
00:47:26,485 --> 00:47:27,565
Speaker 2: that can't be true.

803
00:47:28,525 --> 00:47:31,405
Speaker 3: Was there physical violence at that time between with your dad.

804
00:47:31,965 --> 00:47:37,085
Speaker 2: No, there was not physical violence, but he has this

805
00:47:37,165 --> 00:47:42,285
Speaker 2: overwhelming presence and he would bar the door for my room,

806
00:47:42,325 --> 00:47:43,885
Speaker 2: so I would be trapped in my room while he

807
00:47:43,965 --> 00:47:47,125
Speaker 2: yelled at me. And so in that sense, it was physical,

808
00:47:47,165 --> 00:47:50,565
Speaker 2: but not anything that was like what we consider violence.

809
00:47:51,285 --> 00:47:55,605
Speaker 3: Your whole world changed pretty quickly once that ball started

810
00:47:55,645 --> 00:47:58,485
Speaker 3: kind of rolling, didn't it. And you and David get married.

811
00:47:58,485 --> 00:48:01,605
Speaker 3: As you say, you move away, your brother Chris comes

812
00:48:01,605 --> 00:48:04,165
Speaker 3: out as gay as well, all of the children of

813
00:48:04,205 --> 00:48:09,125
Speaker 3: your family start to really cleave away from how you've

814
00:48:09,165 --> 00:48:12,325
Speaker 3: been raised and the systems you'd been raised in. And

815
00:48:12,925 --> 00:48:15,165
Speaker 3: what's so interesting is that it wasn't until you'd kind

816
00:48:15,165 --> 00:48:17,965
Speaker 3: of begun your own life as an adult, married woman

817
00:48:18,845 --> 00:48:22,445
Speaker 3: that a lot of that trauma really started surfacing for you.

818
00:48:23,405 --> 00:48:25,845
Speaker 3: Why do you think that was that It wasn't until later.

819
00:48:27,205 --> 00:48:32,365
Speaker 2: I was very dissociated most of my young adulthood, like

820
00:48:32,485 --> 00:48:37,405
Speaker 2: literally dissociated during times of stress with my father, and

821
00:48:38,125 --> 00:48:41,405
Speaker 2: it didn't feel connected to my body or at home

822
00:48:41,485 --> 00:48:45,245
Speaker 2: in my body. And when I left, all of a sudden,

823
00:48:45,285 --> 00:48:48,125
Speaker 2: I didn't have any rules. I didn't have anybody telling

824
00:48:48,125 --> 00:48:50,485
Speaker 2: you what to do. My husband's very much not a

825
00:48:50,485 --> 00:48:52,885
Speaker 2: patriarch case, not like somebody who's going to tell you

826
00:48:52,925 --> 00:48:56,085
Speaker 2: what to do. We were very much a partnership, and

827
00:48:56,165 --> 00:49:00,845
Speaker 2: so I had nobody telling me what to decide on.

828
00:49:00,965 --> 00:49:03,245
Speaker 2: I had to make all these choices for myself, which

829
00:49:03,285 --> 00:49:06,565
Speaker 2: is very overwhelming when you're not used to that. And

830
00:49:07,485 --> 00:49:10,245
Speaker 2: I was in a safe place. I think sometimes when

831
00:49:10,325 --> 00:49:14,205
Speaker 2: you're in a safe place, you can finally feel the

832
00:49:14,205 --> 00:49:17,045
Speaker 2: things that you've had to survive. When you're in survival mode,

833
00:49:17,085 --> 00:49:20,205
Speaker 2: you have adrenaline, you have all these hormones that are

834
00:49:20,285 --> 00:49:22,725
Speaker 2: helping you get through it. And then when you no

835
00:49:22,765 --> 00:49:28,245
Speaker 2: longer have to be in that situation, you can release

836
00:49:28,285 --> 00:49:30,485
Speaker 2: all of that and you feel it all. And that's

837
00:49:30,525 --> 00:49:32,845
Speaker 2: when a lot of the PTSD came right. And so

838
00:49:33,005 --> 00:49:35,765
Speaker 2: of course it's always post traumatic stress. It's not during

839
00:49:36,045 --> 00:49:39,445
Speaker 2: the traumatic stress. So that's what I was experiencing.

840
00:49:41,725 --> 00:49:48,165
Speaker 3: When did the C word cult rise to the surface

841
00:49:48,205 --> 00:49:50,365
Speaker 3: for you? When did that feel like the right word

842
00:49:50,685 --> 00:49:54,245
Speaker 3: to describe what you've grown up in and what you'd experienced.

843
00:49:55,085 --> 00:49:58,045
Speaker 2: Oh, I can't remember exact moment. I just I love

844
00:49:58,085 --> 00:50:03,765
Speaker 2: watching documentaries and it's kind of odd, but watching cult

845
00:50:03,805 --> 00:50:09,325
Speaker 2: documentaries has always calmed me down and made me feel stay,

846
00:50:09,845 --> 00:50:13,325
Speaker 2: which sounds really backwards, but I think it makes sense

847
00:50:13,365 --> 00:50:16,205
Speaker 2: now that I understand that it's so familiar to me

848
00:50:16,365 --> 00:50:19,165
Speaker 2: that it gives me some kind of resolution. Because usually

849
00:50:19,245 --> 00:50:23,365
Speaker 2: a cult documentary starts with the problem and the group,

850
00:50:23,525 --> 00:50:25,685
Speaker 2: and then people leave or it breaks down and there's

851
00:50:25,685 --> 00:50:29,125
Speaker 2: an ending. Watching these documentaries gave me that feeling of

852
00:50:29,165 --> 00:50:33,005
Speaker 2: closure that I might never get with some aspects of

853
00:50:33,005 --> 00:50:37,125
Speaker 2: my life. And I remember watching The Vow, which is

854
00:50:37,165 --> 00:50:41,805
Speaker 2: about Nextium, a very different kind of cult, but the

855
00:50:41,845 --> 00:50:44,925
Speaker 2: way they broke it down and talked about it, it

856
00:50:45,005 --> 00:50:50,045
Speaker 2: started to really click for me. Of these aspects are

857
00:50:50,125 --> 00:50:52,805
Speaker 2: exactly what was happening in my home and in my church,

858
00:50:53,165 --> 00:50:56,005
Speaker 2: but just with the different context. It wasn't the Nexium

859
00:50:56,085 --> 00:51:01,005
Speaker 2: wasn't religious, but my group was. And that's when I

860
00:51:01,005 --> 00:51:05,525
Speaker 2: started understanding the parallels, and that language gave me the

861
00:51:05,605 --> 00:51:08,645
Speaker 2: confidence to use that word. Finally. I think it's a

862
00:51:08,725 --> 00:51:11,485
Speaker 2: very complex. I don't want to simplify things, but it's

863
00:51:11,525 --> 00:51:15,565
Speaker 2: also really empowering to use that word when you were

864
00:51:15,605 --> 00:51:17,445
Speaker 2: in a place that caused so much harm.

865
00:51:17,965 --> 00:51:22,965
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you wrote your dad a letter after you left.

866
00:51:23,845 --> 00:51:25,405
Speaker 3: Talk to me about what you said to him and

867
00:51:25,445 --> 00:51:28,725
Speaker 3: what you tried to express to him and how he responded.

868
00:51:29,605 --> 00:51:34,325
Speaker 2: We had kind of a very surface level relationship when

869
00:51:34,325 --> 00:51:38,205
Speaker 2: I left. I think what happened for him was he

870
00:51:38,285 --> 00:51:42,085
Speaker 2: realized he couldn't control me anymore, and so he kind

871
00:51:42,085 --> 00:51:44,325
Speaker 2: of stepped back a little bit and we could have

872
00:51:44,365 --> 00:51:47,485
Speaker 2: a very basic conversation on the phone, and I did

873
00:51:47,565 --> 00:51:50,485
Speaker 2: see him a couple times, and now that I was married,

874
00:51:50,525 --> 00:51:52,765
Speaker 2: I was under the headshep of another man, So that's

875
00:51:53,045 --> 00:51:56,365
Speaker 2: in his head, that's how that works. When I started

876
00:51:56,405 --> 00:52:03,485
Speaker 2: talking about my story online and sharing just tiny little things,

877
00:52:04,045 --> 00:52:05,845
Speaker 2: and I try to focus it on myself and not

878
00:52:05,965 --> 00:52:09,525
Speaker 2: my dad, but of course anything I said that was

879
00:52:09,605 --> 00:52:13,805
Speaker 2: the truth was going to get him upset. And somehow

880
00:52:13,805 --> 00:52:17,685
Speaker 2: he found me on Twitter and he sent me all

881
00:52:17,725 --> 00:52:19,685
Speaker 2: these text messages in the middle of the night of

882
00:52:19,685 --> 00:52:21,845
Speaker 2: how upset he was and how hurt and why would

883
00:52:21,845 --> 00:52:25,085
Speaker 2: I do this to him? And at that point I

884
00:52:25,125 --> 00:52:27,645
Speaker 2: had learned all this you know language about course of control,

885
00:52:27,645 --> 00:52:30,485
Speaker 2: and I was like, you are guesslighting me, this has

886
00:52:30,605 --> 00:52:35,485
Speaker 2: really happened. And I was feeling like, you don't get

887
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:39,565
Speaker 2: to disrupt my night's sleep because you're upset about something

888
00:52:39,605 --> 00:52:43,885
Speaker 2: I say. And I worked with a therapist on this letter.

889
00:52:44,605 --> 00:52:48,085
Speaker 2: Instead of texting him back, I just emailed him this letter,

890
00:52:48,165 --> 00:52:52,245
Speaker 2: and I wanted to explain finally how I felt about everything.

891
00:52:52,285 --> 00:52:54,285
Speaker 2: A lot of it I had already said in person

892
00:52:55,045 --> 00:52:58,245
Speaker 2: when before I even left, but I just wanted to

893
00:52:58,285 --> 00:53:03,325
Speaker 2: reinstate like, this is what happened, this is what you did.

894
00:53:04,365 --> 00:53:07,845
Speaker 2: I will take responsibility for all my actions and maybe

895
00:53:07,845 --> 00:53:11,605
Speaker 2: I didn't handle everything while. But if we want to

896
00:53:11,645 --> 00:53:16,125
Speaker 2: continue a relationship, I need you to at least acknowledge

897
00:53:16,165 --> 00:53:21,365
Speaker 2: it happened and take responsibility for what you did. And

898
00:53:21,405 --> 00:53:23,405
Speaker 2: I want to figure out a way to still have

899
00:53:23,445 --> 00:53:28,245
Speaker 2: this relationship. This was about five years ago. Now, I

900
00:53:28,245 --> 00:53:31,685
Speaker 2: know he got the letter, but he never responded.

901
00:53:33,125 --> 00:53:34,005
Speaker 3: What about your mom?

902
00:53:34,565 --> 00:53:37,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, I still have contact with my mom. I'm glad

903
00:53:37,285 --> 00:53:40,565
Speaker 2: that I do. She's always been supportive of me having

904
00:53:40,565 --> 00:53:44,045
Speaker 2: my own life. I think she's gotten stronger in the

905
00:53:44,085 --> 00:53:47,925
Speaker 2: past decade and it's good to see that, and I

906
00:53:48,125 --> 00:53:51,285
Speaker 2: like that we can still talk even though she's still

907
00:53:51,325 --> 00:53:53,965
Speaker 2: with my dad. It just gets it gets complicated.

908
00:53:54,605 --> 00:53:59,765
Speaker 3: What's your relationship with God and religion and spirituality at

909
00:53:59,765 --> 00:54:00,885
Speaker 3: this time in your life.

910
00:54:01,245 --> 00:54:02,685
Speaker 2: This is always the part where I want to joke

911
00:54:02,725 --> 00:54:04,685
Speaker 2: about how I'm starting my own cult, But I'm not

912
00:54:04,725 --> 00:54:09,005
Speaker 2: doing that. You know.

913
00:54:09,485 --> 00:54:11,045
Speaker 3: Look, I think if there was ever a time for

914
00:54:11,125 --> 00:54:14,085
Speaker 3: us to have, you know, an extreme matriarchy movement, it

915
00:54:14,165 --> 00:54:15,445
Speaker 3: might be now, Kate, I.

916
00:54:16,045 --> 00:54:17,885
Speaker 2: Know the playbooks, so I just have to switch the

917
00:54:17,925 --> 00:54:22,805
Speaker 2: pronouns in the week. No, No, I still wanted to

918
00:54:22,845 --> 00:54:24,925
Speaker 2: go to church for a long time. After I left

919
00:54:25,245 --> 00:54:29,725
Speaker 2: my family. It was like a double heartbreak though, because

920
00:54:30,045 --> 00:54:32,325
Speaker 2: I witnessed a lot of abuse in the church, or

921
00:54:32,525 --> 00:54:36,005
Speaker 2: mishandling of abuse, me showing up as an abuse survivor

922
00:54:36,205 --> 00:54:41,965
Speaker 2: and not being accepted that way, and patriarchy steeping in

923
00:54:42,005 --> 00:54:46,165
Speaker 2: and becoming more influential this movement, like the leaders from

924
00:54:46,205 --> 00:54:49,005
Speaker 2: my childhood. We had those books in Sunday School. All

925
00:54:49,005 --> 00:54:51,165
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I was like, what is happening. It's

926
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,965
Speaker 2: happening again, and so I left that church and just

927
00:54:55,005 --> 00:54:57,245
Speaker 2: never went I've tried to other churches, and I just

928
00:54:57,645 --> 00:55:02,045
Speaker 2: have never gone back because being in a church sitting

929
00:55:02,885 --> 00:55:06,325
Speaker 2: really triggers my PTSD and it's just not a good

930
00:55:06,325 --> 00:55:09,085
Speaker 2: place for my body to be right now. Once I

931
00:55:09,125 --> 00:55:10,685
Speaker 2: saw I'm going to church, I was like, oh, I

932
00:55:10,725 --> 00:55:14,885
Speaker 2: could actually feel good during the weekend and not stressed.

933
00:55:15,925 --> 00:55:18,845
Speaker 2: I don't call myself a Christian anymore, but I do

934
00:55:18,925 --> 00:55:21,805
Speaker 2: work with a lot of people who do, because I

935
00:55:21,885 --> 00:55:26,445
Speaker 2: work with a nonprofit that helps spiritual abuse survivors, and

936
00:55:26,485 --> 00:55:28,645
Speaker 2: so I want to be sensitive to that. I'm never

937
00:55:28,685 --> 00:55:31,285
Speaker 2: going to tell someone they have to heal a certain way,

938
00:55:32,045 --> 00:55:36,005
Speaker 2: whether with religion or not. But for me, it's not

939
00:55:37,005 --> 00:55:38,285
Speaker 2: a part of my life anymore.

940
00:55:38,885 --> 00:55:40,965
Speaker 3: I want to ask you about that kind of you know,

941
00:55:41,005 --> 00:55:46,485
Speaker 3: I suppose it's almost like a sliding doors alternate reality

942
00:55:46,605 --> 00:55:48,765
Speaker 3: kind of kind of experience, where you know, you write

943
00:55:48,765 --> 00:55:53,085
Speaker 3: about the very real danger and violence that exists within

944
00:55:53,165 --> 00:55:57,605
Speaker 3: this movement. We've interviewed other women who've lived under religious

945
00:55:57,645 --> 00:56:01,405
Speaker 3: patriarchy who did end up marrying into that system and

946
00:56:01,445 --> 00:56:06,245
Speaker 3: suffered serious abuse. Do you ever wonder what it might

947
00:56:06,285 --> 00:56:08,445
Speaker 3: have looked like for you if you had let your

948
00:56:08,525 --> 00:56:12,525
Speaker 3: dad choose your husband, if you had let him guide

949
00:56:13,045 --> 00:56:16,005
Speaker 3: the rest of your adult life and maintain that kind

950
00:56:16,005 --> 00:56:16,725
Speaker 3: of control.

951
00:56:17,925 --> 00:56:21,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have thought about this a lot, and I

952
00:56:21,325 --> 00:56:25,605
Speaker 2: know so many State Home daughters, and I've seen so

953
00:56:25,685 --> 00:56:28,565
Speaker 2: many ways they've lived out their lives. Some of them

954
00:56:29,165 --> 00:56:32,125
Speaker 2: have never gotten married, some of them get married and

955
00:56:32,165 --> 00:56:36,605
Speaker 2: then divorced. Some of them are married and still in

956
00:56:36,645 --> 00:56:39,845
Speaker 2: the movement. Some are married and left the movement. It's

957
00:56:39,925 --> 00:56:43,765
Speaker 2: just been a lot of different ways that this has

958
00:56:43,885 --> 00:56:48,645
Speaker 2: diverged for us. A lot of us have deconstructed the

959
00:56:48,685 --> 00:56:53,005
Speaker 2: whole patriarchy movement. I would say probably a majority of us,

960
00:56:53,965 --> 00:56:58,325
Speaker 2: and a lot of abuse has happened, and that is

961
00:56:58,405 --> 00:57:01,925
Speaker 2: really hard to stomach because our parents set us up

962
00:57:01,965 --> 00:57:05,565
Speaker 2: for that, and we didn't ask for that. Nobody does.

963
00:57:06,085 --> 00:57:10,325
Speaker 2: And it's hard to see my friends who've been in

964
00:57:10,365 --> 00:57:15,445
Speaker 2: those marriages and knowing that that happened to them. There's

965
00:57:15,485 --> 00:57:19,685
Speaker 2: no words, really, I do feel like I escaped some

966
00:57:19,725 --> 00:57:22,525
Speaker 2: of the worst parts of what could have happened. There's

967
00:57:22,565 --> 00:57:25,725
Speaker 2: never a way to compare trauma, but I do feel

968
00:57:26,645 --> 00:57:28,845
Speaker 2: I don't know what the word is. I feel grateful

969
00:57:28,925 --> 00:57:30,045
Speaker 2: for where I am today.

970
00:57:30,845 --> 00:57:35,285
Speaker 3: You write something so poignant, which is that it had

971
00:57:35,285 --> 00:57:37,245
Speaker 3: been a decade at least at the time of writing

972
00:57:37,245 --> 00:57:39,885
Speaker 3: your book, it had been a decade since you'd left,

973
00:57:39,925 --> 00:57:42,965
Speaker 3: but you sometimes feel like you're still leaving.

974
00:57:43,885 --> 00:57:47,645
Speaker 2: When I first left, I really wanted to wipe the

975
00:57:47,725 --> 00:57:52,405
Speaker 2: slate clean and never tell anybody ever what my family

976
00:57:52,525 --> 00:57:56,325
Speaker 2: had been like, and just pretend like I had dropped

977
00:57:56,365 --> 00:57:59,725
Speaker 2: on the earth and could just pretend like I've always

978
00:57:59,765 --> 00:58:02,125
Speaker 2: had a job and always knew what I was going

979
00:58:02,165 --> 00:58:05,845
Speaker 2: on around me. But with PTSD and struggling with all that,

980
00:58:05,925 --> 00:58:10,485
Speaker 2: I realized pretty quickly that you can't just get what happened,

981
00:58:10,725 --> 00:58:14,965
Speaker 2: and you can't move on without dealing with the trauma.

982
00:58:15,285 --> 00:58:18,645
Speaker 2: I don't think it's difficult. Nobody wants to do that,

983
00:58:18,805 --> 00:58:22,525
Speaker 2: but it's important to get to a safe place where

984
00:58:22,565 --> 00:58:26,325
Speaker 2: you can go back and reprocess some of those things

985
00:58:26,405 --> 00:58:31,365
Speaker 2: so that you aren't constantly in that nervous system disregulation

986
00:58:31,725 --> 00:58:36,805
Speaker 2: that I was in. Is possible, I think, well, what

987
00:58:36,885 --> 00:58:37,405
Speaker 2: I really.

988
00:58:37,245 --> 00:58:41,445
Speaker 3: Want to ask you about in these last minutes. You know,

989
00:58:41,485 --> 00:58:44,365
Speaker 3: we're living through a very high stakes time for women

990
00:58:44,565 --> 00:58:47,965
Speaker 3: in America at the moment the time of this conversation,

991
00:58:48,165 --> 00:58:53,165
Speaker 3: right now, we are only a weaken to the results

992
00:58:53,205 --> 00:58:56,485
Speaker 3: of of you as election and Trump being re elected,

993
00:58:56,525 --> 00:59:03,205
Speaker 3: and I want to know what you feel. I suppose

994
00:59:03,205 --> 00:59:06,245
Speaker 3: not just about the election results, but there are quite

995
00:59:06,285 --> 00:59:13,645
Speaker 3: a lot of white Christian, patriarchal, white nationalist men in

996
00:59:13,725 --> 00:59:17,045
Speaker 3: government in the country that you're living in who would

997
00:59:17,085 --> 00:59:20,045
Speaker 3: say that the childhood you grew up with and in

998
00:59:21,405 --> 00:59:25,445
Speaker 3: is right and good and in fact should be the

999
00:59:25,565 --> 00:59:30,445
Speaker 3: law of the land. How does that not trigger your

1000
00:59:30,485 --> 00:59:33,045
Speaker 3: PTSD and your trauma response?

1001
00:59:34,365 --> 00:59:38,725
Speaker 2: I mean? Or does it does? Definitely does? I mean

1002
00:59:38,805 --> 00:59:42,325
Speaker 2: in the sense that it's such a reminder and it's

1003
00:59:43,045 --> 00:59:45,205
Speaker 2: it brings up that feeling of what it's like to

1004
00:59:45,245 --> 00:59:49,365
Speaker 2: feel closed off from other people and to feel oppressed

1005
00:59:49,525 --> 00:59:54,805
Speaker 2: and struggle to have decision making power. That feeling of helplessness.

1006
00:59:55,605 --> 00:59:57,845
Speaker 2: That's what's triggering for me, is like, are we going

1007
00:59:57,885 --> 01:00:00,885
Speaker 2: to go back to that place? But I'm also in

1008
01:00:00,925 --> 01:00:03,805
Speaker 2: a different place now and I do have more power

1009
01:00:03,845 --> 01:00:06,965
Speaker 2: than I did then, and that's why I'm speaking up

1010
01:00:07,005 --> 01:00:11,365
Speaker 2: so much and doing what I can to educate people

1011
01:00:11,405 --> 01:00:14,645
Speaker 2: about what this really looks like. On the ground, I'm

1012
01:00:14,645 --> 01:00:18,085
Speaker 2: trying to stay grounded in myself and have my support

1013
01:00:18,165 --> 01:00:23,325
Speaker 2: system and using what extra energy I have to help

1014
01:00:23,365 --> 01:00:27,805
Speaker 2: with the problem. And that gives me freedom even itself.

1015
01:00:27,845 --> 01:00:30,445
Speaker 2: I have freedom inside of myself, and then I have

1016
01:00:30,525 --> 01:00:32,885
Speaker 2: the power to use my voice, and I don't think

1017
01:00:32,925 --> 01:00:35,085
Speaker 2: anyone can ever take that away from me again.

1018
01:00:35,525 --> 01:00:39,525
Speaker 3: Please don't stop using your voice and telling stories and

1019
01:00:39,565 --> 01:00:42,525
Speaker 3: sharing your wisdom. We need you now more than ever. Kate,

1020
01:00:42,605 --> 01:00:46,285
Speaker 3: we really do. Thank you so much for your time today.

1021
01:00:46,405 --> 01:00:47,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

1022
01:00:50,125 --> 01:00:54,485
Speaker 3: Wow, big story, right. I don't think stories like Kate's

1023
01:00:54,605 --> 01:00:57,245
Speaker 3: could have come at a better time. Really. You can

1024
01:00:57,285 --> 01:01:00,005
Speaker 3: probably tell by my accent that I'm American. And what's

1025
01:01:00,085 --> 01:01:02,405
Speaker 3: wild to me about Kate's story is that she and

1026
01:01:02,485 --> 01:01:04,485
Speaker 3: I are around the same age, grew up in the

1027
01:01:04,525 --> 01:01:07,885
Speaker 3: same country. But we may as well be from different planets.

1028
01:01:08,605 --> 01:01:11,125
Speaker 3: And that's the thing about these high demand organizations or

1029
01:01:11,125 --> 01:01:15,085
Speaker 3: these extreme religious groups. They're so isolating, which we know

1030
01:01:15,165 --> 01:01:17,765
Speaker 3: is kind of cult one oh one right outside influence

1031
01:01:17,765 --> 01:01:20,765
Speaker 3: and information is the biggest threat to their power. When

1032
01:01:20,805 --> 01:01:22,885
Speaker 3: I asked Kate if she ever thought about the women

1033
01:01:23,085 --> 01:01:26,365
Speaker 3: from these Christian patriarchal movements who don't find their way

1034
01:01:26,405 --> 01:01:29,525
Speaker 3: out until things get even more violent and even more dangerous,

1035
01:01:30,165 --> 01:01:33,325
Speaker 3: I was thinking particularly about another woman that Mia interviewed

1036
01:01:33,325 --> 01:01:36,645
Speaker 3: on this program called Tia Loving's. Tia and Kate are

1037
01:01:36,725 --> 01:01:39,885
Speaker 3: survivors of the same groups and ideas, but Tia did

1038
01:01:39,885 --> 01:01:43,885
Speaker 3: marry someone who subscribed to that really violent form of

1039
01:01:44,045 --> 01:01:47,645
Speaker 3: male dominance, and she came very close to not making

1040
01:01:47,645 --> 01:01:49,685
Speaker 3: it out alive. I'll be sure to link to her

1041
01:01:49,725 --> 01:01:52,525
Speaker 3: story in the show notes for you. I'll also link

1042
01:01:52,565 --> 01:01:55,765
Speaker 3: to our conversation with Megan Agnew. She's a journalist who

1043
01:01:55,765 --> 01:01:58,085
Speaker 3: spent the day with a woman named Hannah Nielman. You

1044
01:01:58,165 --> 01:02:00,285
Speaker 3: might have heard of her. She's kind of considered to

1045
01:02:00,285 --> 01:02:02,765
Speaker 3: be the queen of the tradwives and is kind of

1046
01:02:03,045 --> 01:02:06,485
Speaker 3: selling some of the ideas and frameworks that Kate escaped from.

1047
01:02:06,965 --> 01:02:10,005
Speaker 3: But in this really soft and fashioning and instant way.

1048
01:02:10,685 --> 01:02:13,565
Speaker 3: There's a lot more to Kate's story and experience, including

1049
01:02:13,565 --> 01:02:17,325
Speaker 3: her fertility journey and more about exactly how her church operated.

1050
01:02:17,685 --> 01:02:21,445
Speaker 3: It's all in her wildly well written memoir Rift, which

1051
01:02:21,485 --> 01:02:23,725
Speaker 3: you can also find a link to in our show notes.

1052
01:02:24,285 --> 01:02:26,685
Speaker 3: Mia Friedman is the host and creator of No Filter.

1053
01:02:27,165 --> 01:02:30,165
Speaker 3: The executive producer of No Filter is me Naima Brown,

1054
01:02:30,245 --> 01:02:32,165
Speaker 3: and you can find me on Instagram and pitch me

1055
01:02:32,205 --> 01:02:35,565
Speaker 3: your stories anytime. We get so many great tips from

1056
01:02:35,565 --> 01:02:39,045
Speaker 3: our listeners, so please do reach out. Audio production and

1057
01:02:39,125 --> 01:02:42,005
Speaker 3: sound design is by Jacob Brown. Thank you for listening.