WEBVTT - Kris Jenner Thinks You're a Grub 0:00:10.661 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:19.542 that this podcast is recorded on out louders. 0:00:19.582 --> 0:00:21.701 Before we start the show today, we just wanted to 0:00:21.782 --> 0:00:24.582 send our love and tell you that we're thinking of 0:00:24.622 --> 0:00:28.102 you if you are affected by the devastating floods in 0:00:28.182 --> 0:00:32.221 northern New South Wales. It's not just the people affected 0:00:32.262 --> 0:00:34.942 by the floods. There are many out louders in those 0:00:34.982 --> 0:00:37.742 areas who are part of the sees or who are 0:00:37.982 --> 0:00:40.422 some of the thousands of volunteers that have been saving 0:00:40.502 --> 0:00:44.462 lives and properties and doing incredible work. So we just 0:00:44.502 --> 0:00:47.262 wanted to say we love you, we're thinking of you, 0:00:47.702 --> 0:00:48.422 and hang in there. 0:00:50.982 --> 0:00:54.742 There is a whole conversation going on about sleepovers. The 0:00:54.862 --> 0:00:57.862 new anxiety around sleepovers is very much about control. 0:00:58.102 --> 0:01:01.502 There's this dual tension right that our kids are spending 0:01:01.502 --> 0:01:03.822 too much time on screens and not enough time with 0:01:03.862 --> 0:01:09.622 their friends, but also this very real fear about the 0:01:09.822 --> 0:01:11.902 risks that the world offers up. 0:01:15.462 --> 0:01:18.382 Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud and to 0:01:18.462 --> 0:01:21.462 our Friday show where we talk about nothing to do 0:01:21.542 --> 0:01:22.862 with the news cycle at all. 0:01:23.102 --> 0:01:25.342 Today. It's Friday, the twenty third of May, and my 0:01:25.462 --> 0:01:26.862 name is Hollywayne. 0:01:26.382 --> 0:01:29.262 Right, I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm. 0:01:29.102 --> 0:01:31.941 And Burnham filling in for mea today we are back 0:01:31.942 --> 0:01:33.022 to regular programming. 0:01:33.342 --> 0:01:36.222 How we all feeling We have just finished up the 0:01:36.302 --> 0:01:40.862 tour last night in Melbourne? What an absolute joy? Does 0:01:40.902 --> 0:01:42.902 everyone else feel like they're going to fall in a hate? 0:01:43.462 --> 0:01:48.182 Yes, a very happy, saated heap Melbourne. You were wild. 0:01:48.342 --> 0:01:51.302 Thank you for finishing us off so well. We are 0:01:51.342 --> 0:01:53.662 still recording from all different corners. If we sound a 0:01:53.662 --> 0:01:56.422 bit weird, but my god, this tour has been a blast, right, 0:01:56.542 --> 0:01:57.702 It's been so much fun. 0:01:57.902 --> 0:02:00.782 I'm horrified by how often on this tour we've said 0:02:00.782 --> 0:02:06.382 this must be how Taylor Swift feels so much like Oh, 0:02:06.422 --> 0:02:09.262 it's just like after the Ears tour, like you just 0:02:09.302 --> 0:02:12.102 take the energy of an audience. Look, it's not quite it, 0:02:12.302 --> 0:02:16.502 but we are a lot of solidarity with Taylor today. 0:02:17.022 --> 0:02:19.382 Anyone who saw the show, and I know many out 0:02:19.382 --> 0:02:21.822 louders listening were not able to come, so we won't 0:02:21.862 --> 0:02:23.462 go on and on, but anyone who saw the show 0:02:23.502 --> 0:02:28.142 knows that the comparisons to Taylor Swift fastly and appropriate. 0:02:28.222 --> 0:02:32.822 It's very generous to us to costume changes anyway. On 0:02:32.902 --> 0:02:37.501 today's show, the sleepover is officially dead. What is lost 0:02:37.582 --> 0:02:40.342 by everyone staying home in their own beds? Thank you 0:02:40.422 --> 0:02:45.222 very much. Also, our recommendations include a tinly Flashblack, an 0:02:45.302 --> 0:02:49.502 unput doubtable mystery, and Bleeding for a Cause. And our 0:02:49.542 --> 0:02:52.222 best and Worst of the week includes you lot out, Louders, 0:02:52.542 --> 0:02:55.542 routine fails, and some very talented people. 0:02:55.662 --> 0:02:57.622 But first, Jesse Stevens. 0:02:58.022 --> 0:03:01.022 In case you missed it, here's what your messy, disgusting 0:03:01.142 --> 0:03:04.061 desk says about you, or rather me, whose desk is 0:03:04.102 --> 0:03:07.302 a health hazard? In an article published in the Age 0:03:07.382 --> 0:03:11.022 by Kathy Bussowitz, if you's a psychiatrist and a medical 0:03:11.062 --> 0:03:15.942 director named Marietta Vanderberg, who says clutter is actually just 0:03:15.982 --> 0:03:19.902 a postponed decision or action. It's things we pick up 0:03:19.902 --> 0:03:22.622 and put down, so we're not making a decision about 0:03:22.662 --> 0:03:24.982 that piece of paper on your desk or that book. 0:03:25.502 --> 0:03:29.862 Now this blew my mind because that identifies precisely what 0:03:29.902 --> 0:03:32.742 my problem is. I'm struggling to make decisions. 0:03:33.142 --> 0:03:33.862 She said that. 0:03:33.862 --> 0:03:36.102 Deliveries actually make this hard up because a lot of 0:03:36.142 --> 0:03:39.822 people have opened or not even yet opened packages on 0:03:39.902 --> 0:03:42.902 their desk, even she was saying, you can't find your pens, 0:03:42.902 --> 0:03:45.222 so you just buy more pens. And then there are 0:03:45.262 --> 0:03:48.022 things like a bill or a fine, which represents a 0:03:48.062 --> 0:03:50.982 task that you can't get around to yet. Researchers have 0:03:51.022 --> 0:03:54.262 found messy desks contribute to our stress hormones and even 0:03:54.342 --> 0:03:58.502 cause us to get less sleep. What's weird is that 0:03:58.622 --> 0:04:01.822 I feel like I'm tidy in most other instances, but 0:04:01.902 --> 0:04:05.102 I have never been able to keep a clean desk. Holly, 0:04:05.302 --> 0:04:07.302 is it a Sagittarius thing? Because I know you're exactly 0:04:07.382 --> 0:04:07.702 the same. 0:04:08.062 --> 0:04:09.302 I am exactly the same. 0:04:09.542 --> 0:04:12.822 I think there's different kinds of clutter, because that's really true, 0:04:13.142 --> 0:04:16.421 that clutter is an unmade decision. There are things on 0:04:16.421 --> 0:04:18.222 my desk that are like books that I've been meaning 0:04:18.262 --> 0:04:20.382 to read, things that I know I've got to get 0:04:20.382 --> 0:04:23.102 back to. It's the rules of anti clutter. Do they 0:04:23.101 --> 0:04:25.461 mean that if I can't do it now, I should 0:04:25.702 --> 0:04:27.822 throw it away? Should there be nothing that is? 0:04:27.981 --> 0:04:28.981 I'm getting to that. 0:04:29.301 --> 0:04:32.061 What you're meant to do is factor in like five 0:04:32.142 --> 0:04:35.261 minutes a day for desk admin. That's what the clever 0:04:35.342 --> 0:04:38.582 people do. Now, m Are you a messy desk or 0:04:38.582 --> 0:04:39.222 a tidy desk? 0:04:39.501 --> 0:04:41.942 I am, and I feel like my mom and mia 0:04:42.022 --> 0:04:45.182 colleagues would disagree. But I feel like I'm personally a 0:04:45.222 --> 0:04:49.421 tidy desk person but messy and every other factor of 0:04:49.462 --> 0:04:51.821 my life, because I feel like desk for me is 0:04:51.861 --> 0:04:55.341 like a public front. So I want people to assume 0:04:55.582 --> 0:04:57.941 something about me, and I think they'll assume that on 0:04:58.022 --> 0:05:00.661 how I keep my desk tidy. With that being said, though, 0:05:01.061 --> 0:05:03.782 I like to have a tiny bit of clutter because 0:05:03.782 --> 0:05:06.222 I feel like it gives the illusion that I'm a 0:05:06.262 --> 0:05:07.381 really busy person. 0:05:07.541 --> 0:05:09.341 Yes, yes, I agree. 0:05:09.621 --> 0:05:11.582 Things on my desk and I have, like my laptop 0:05:11.621 --> 0:05:13.941 and my notebook. It seems like I'm organized and I'm 0:05:13.981 --> 0:05:17.301 taking notes constantly, my little parcels. And then people walk 0:05:17.342 --> 0:05:20.142 past my desk and go, oh, she's so busy, look 0:05:20.142 --> 0:05:20.422 at her. 0:05:20.421 --> 0:05:23.101 Go there's some mess that's deliberate because I don't have 0:05:23.142 --> 0:05:25.662 a desk at work. I don't know how that happened, 0:05:26.101 --> 0:05:28.421 but I was relegated to a point where I don't 0:05:28.421 --> 0:05:30.101 have a desk. We're about to move to a new office. 0:05:30.101 --> 0:05:31.821 I don't know if i'll have a desk there, you know. 0:05:32.262 --> 0:05:35.501 But at home, my desk is almost deliberately cluttered because 0:05:35.981 --> 0:05:37.861 it's a beautiful old desk, and I like it to 0:05:37.902 --> 0:05:39.621 feel lived in. So I have pictures on there that 0:05:39.662 --> 0:05:41.541 mean a lot to me. I have things I like 0:05:41.582 --> 0:05:43.861 to pick up and rub or hold when I'm riding. 0:05:44.301 --> 0:05:46.942 I have like things I like to squirt on my face. 0:05:47.142 --> 0:05:49.701 I had like it's a deliberate clutter. It's not meant 0:05:49.782 --> 0:05:51.822 to be a sterile environment. It's meant to. 0:05:51.782 --> 0:05:54.582 Be a so it's like organized mess. Yeah, but then 0:05:54.702 --> 0:05:57.461 of course there's also just the mess mess I reckon. 0:05:57.501 --> 0:06:00.181 It's also a status symbol because I remember watching a 0:06:00.181 --> 0:06:03.141 documentary years ago with Caro Meldrum Hannah, who's like an 0:06:03.181 --> 0:06:06.061 ABAC journal who I'm just in awe of, and I 0:06:06.101 --> 0:06:08.222 remember there being a shot of her desk and it 0:06:08.501 --> 0:06:12.981 was revolting. Yeah, I remember that rappers, coffee cups, there 0:06:12.981 --> 0:06:15.462 were things living in it, there was a zoo like, 0:06:15.501 --> 0:06:18.262 it was revolting, and I just thought, that is an 0:06:18.262 --> 0:06:20.862 important woman. Well, it is has a lot going on. 0:06:21.101 --> 0:06:25.462 But this leads me to another very strong opinion about clutter. 0:06:25.621 --> 0:06:29.261 So I saw on socials recently that Christianna, Mama Ja 0:06:29.381 --> 0:06:32.141 to the Kardashians famously busy woman. 0:06:32.462 --> 0:06:37.382 Right, she made a point about messy cars. Listen to this. 0:06:37.381 --> 0:06:38.221 This is what she said. 0:06:38.462 --> 0:06:40.782 They said, what advice do you have for these young girls? 0:06:40.821 --> 0:06:42.861 And I said, keep your car clean? And they were 0:06:42.902 --> 0:06:45.301 like what, And I said, have you ever noticed that 0:06:45.421 --> 0:06:49.622 people with a really messy car like French fries, paper 0:06:49.662 --> 0:06:53.381 cups and drinks thrown around and closed from last week? 0:06:53.662 --> 0:06:56.342 I could not think in a car like that. 0:06:56.501 --> 0:06:58.022 I wish that it. 0:06:58.022 --> 0:07:03.022 Was legal if I was interviewing somebody, to have somebody sneak. 0:07:02.821 --> 0:07:05.061 Down and look at the inside. Go look at the 0:07:05.061 --> 0:07:07.061 inside of the car, and how does that look? Because 0:07:07.101 --> 0:07:10.782 it just kind of represents organizational skills and discipline and 0:07:11.381 --> 0:07:13.862 just the way that you feel about yourself. How do 0:07:13.941 --> 0:07:15.862 you want to present yourself when you go out into 0:07:15.902 --> 0:07:16.261 the world. 0:07:16.342 --> 0:07:17.982 What do we think about that? What do we think 0:07:18.022 --> 0:07:20.942 about the state of your car? Because by that measure, 0:07:21.182 --> 0:07:24.102 that messy desk with the cups and everything says that 0:07:24.102 --> 0:07:26.662 that person is chaotic. What do we think about the 0:07:26.702 --> 0:07:28.902 messy car represents the state of your head. 0:07:29.222 --> 0:07:31.222 I don't know if it's about representing the state of 0:07:31.262 --> 0:07:35.021 my head, but I can't stand messy cars. Like my 0:07:35.182 --> 0:07:38.021 car is probably the most pristine. I barely drive it, 0:07:38.062 --> 0:07:39.222 but it's the most pristine car. 0:07:39.342 --> 0:07:39.582 Ever. 0:07:40.102 --> 0:07:43.261 I don't mind people having messy cars if they're the 0:07:43.302 --> 0:07:45.742 only ones in it, But don't make me sit in 0:07:45.782 --> 0:07:48.701 your mess, Like, don't make me get into the passenger seat. 0:07:48.782 --> 0:07:51.222 And you have like McDonald's like on the steed and 0:07:51.262 --> 0:07:53.182 you have I can't even put my water bottle down 0:07:53.222 --> 0:07:55.742 because I just drink bottles. Ever, Like, I actually get 0:07:56.102 --> 0:07:57.742 quite flustered when I'm in a message. 0:07:58.062 --> 0:08:00.142 No em, have I ever given you a lift anywhere? 0:08:00.222 --> 0:08:02.462 Because the first thing I do when anyone gets into 0:08:02.782 --> 0:08:04.581 my car is apologized for the mess. 0:08:04.662 --> 0:08:07.982 Yessee they apologizing, And then like you have to run 0:08:08.022 --> 0:08:10.901 to the passenger seat before me and about all of 0:08:10.941 --> 0:08:12.142 this stuff and dump. 0:08:11.941 --> 0:08:12.542 It into the boot. 0:08:12.622 --> 0:08:13.422 It's chaos. 0:08:13.622 --> 0:08:15.982 And then you go, oh, are you sure you can fit? 0:08:16.062 --> 0:08:19.822 And the person's feet are like on three meters worth 0:08:19.821 --> 0:08:21.782 of bags and they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, 0:08:21.782 --> 0:08:24.342 And I'm thinking, well, you wanted a fucking lift. This 0:08:24.462 --> 0:08:27.821 is a reality. Look, I don't appreciate Chris Jenner's opinion 0:08:27.821 --> 0:08:30.662 at all. My functionality in life relies on my car 0:08:30.742 --> 0:08:32.702 looking like that. If you want my car not to 0:08:32.702 --> 0:08:35.222 look like that, I'm gonna be late. I'm already a 0:08:35.262 --> 0:08:38.502 little bit late, orbe even later. I will barely make 0:08:38.542 --> 0:08:42.022 it to work. Like, I think it's easy for Chris 0:08:42.142 --> 0:08:45.062 Jenner to say that when maybe she has a driver. 0:08:46.342 --> 0:08:47.142 Oh for sure. 0:08:47.462 --> 0:08:50.662 The rest of us are carting around kids, and my 0:08:50.822 --> 0:08:54.822 car is my like transitional space between home and going 0:08:54.862 --> 0:08:56.902 out and child and blah. 0:08:56.982 --> 0:08:59.742 It's like it's the baby seat as well, it's the 0:08:59.742 --> 0:09:02.542 baby because Jesse, if you were to offer me a lift, 0:09:02.622 --> 0:09:04.582 it would be me and Luna in the back with 0:09:04.702 --> 0:09:07.782 your baby seat like digging into my ribcake. Well, you 0:09:07.822 --> 0:09:10.742 and Luca in the front like rows a. 0:09:10.862 --> 0:09:13.542 Room exactly, and I'd be like, sorry about the yoga 0:09:13.582 --> 0:09:14.102 you're sitting on. 0:09:14.582 --> 0:09:16.942 Let's be honest. As someone who drives a lot, I 0:09:16.982 --> 0:09:18.702 eat most of my meals in the car, So. 0:09:18.782 --> 0:09:20.142 My car is disgusting. 0:09:20.702 --> 0:09:23.582 But I find this interesting about the idea of what 0:09:23.662 --> 0:09:27.342 private space of someone's you'd like to see to make 0:09:27.422 --> 0:09:29.742 you make an assumption about them. I find that really 0:09:29.742 --> 0:09:32.302 interesting because of course Chris Jenna doesn't clean her own 0:09:32.342 --> 0:09:35.302 car and probably never has. But she probably also thinks 0:09:35.782 --> 0:09:38.222 are the people who's coming to interview with her for 0:09:38.262 --> 0:09:40.862 a job, like, are they prioritizing a clean car. Are 0:09:40.902 --> 0:09:42.902 they getting it serviced that they're getting it clean? 0:09:42.942 --> 0:09:43.582 Do you know what I mean? 0:09:43.622 --> 0:09:47.222 Like to her, that probably means something. And I wonder 0:09:47.222 --> 0:09:49.142 if there's anything else in life that's like that. Like 0:09:49.182 --> 0:09:52.022 you can tell a lot about someone from their coffee order, 0:09:52.262 --> 0:09:53.902 whether they lunch at their desk. 0:09:53.982 --> 0:09:56.262 Or if they make their bed before they go to work. 0:09:56.422 --> 0:10:00.381 I think that indicates something. But I reckon that cars 0:10:00.422 --> 0:10:03.662 are a deeply personal private space. Find Chris Jenna. I 0:10:03.662 --> 0:10:04.662 won't be offering you a lift. 0:10:04.742 --> 0:10:07.862 Let's just say that, did you stay over at other 0:10:07.942 --> 0:10:09.542 people's houses when you were a kid? 0:10:09.542 --> 0:10:12.342 And Jesse m absolutely. 0:10:12.062 --> 0:10:14.902 Occasionally, mainly my cousins, but sometimes my friends. 0:10:15.102 --> 0:10:19.462 Right, because there is a whole conversation going on about 0:10:19.542 --> 0:10:23.222 sleepovers again. Now, I've been a parent for fifteen years, 0:10:23.502 --> 0:10:25.582 and if I've learned anything in that time is that 0:10:25.582 --> 0:10:27.261 there's a whole lot of things you're doing every day 0:10:27.262 --> 0:10:29.382 that are going to piss off a lot of other people, 0:10:29.702 --> 0:10:32.942 and raising the word sleepovers is one of them. This 0:10:33.102 --> 0:10:36.302 new conversation that's come back around about whether kids should 0:10:36.342 --> 0:10:38.502 be allowed to spend the night at other people's houses, 0:10:38.542 --> 0:10:42.342 and if so, who's and when has been everywhere lately, 0:10:42.782 --> 0:10:45.902 mostly thanks to a now deleted but completely viral tweet 0:10:45.902 --> 0:10:48.662 that caused a storm of agreement, which simply said, my 0:10:48.822 --> 0:10:52.102 daughter is not allowed to attend sleepovers. I hope somedays 0:10:52.102 --> 0:10:55.022 she forgives me and knows is for the best. It's 0:10:55.062 --> 0:10:57.982 a topic that gets everyone talking because even if you're 0:10:58.062 --> 0:11:00.582 not a parent, you were a kid once and your 0:11:00.622 --> 0:11:04.381 experiences very much affect your opinion. Now, before we get 0:11:04.382 --> 0:11:07.502 into this conversation, we have to acknowledge, of course, and 0:11:07.542 --> 0:11:09.902 say that there are many people who have very strong, 0:11:10.102 --> 0:11:14.342 very good reasons for feeling unsafe about sleepovers, people who 0:11:14.342 --> 0:11:17.222 suffered abuse in that situation or are close to those 0:11:17.222 --> 0:11:19.982 who did. Lots of people who work in child protection 0:11:20.062 --> 0:11:23.862 have very strong feelings about this, and child's safety comes first, 0:11:24.062 --> 0:11:28.502 always without question. But there's another level to this discussion, 0:11:28.542 --> 0:11:30.342 and that's where we're mostly going to be hanging out 0:11:30.342 --> 0:11:33.142 when we talk about it today. The new anxiety around 0:11:33.222 --> 0:11:36.942 sleepovers is also very much about control. It's about bedtimes, 0:11:37.422 --> 0:11:42.582 food choices, screens, technology in general. Jesse, You've been having 0:11:42.622 --> 0:11:44.942 some big discussions about this. Tell me what you're hearing 0:11:44.942 --> 0:11:45.342 out there. 0:11:45.862 --> 0:11:47.862 So there was an article in the Sunday Morning Herald 0:11:47.902 --> 0:11:51.142 about a week ago that covered this issue, and one 0:11:51.182 --> 0:11:54.262 of the people interviewed, I believe, was a counselor, And 0:11:54.342 --> 0:11:57.822 as you say, Holly, counselors hear some stories and I 0:11:57.862 --> 0:12:02.302 can imagine that that would influence your worldview. But I 0:12:02.422 --> 0:12:05.382 spoke on ABAC radio about it last week and had 0:12:05.662 --> 0:12:11.222 the most interesting callers. One who was a police officer 0:12:11.342 --> 0:12:13.902 and so was his wife, and they made a conscious 0:12:13.942 --> 0:12:16.502 decision that they would not let the things they saw 0:12:16.662 --> 0:12:20.222 in the day job influence how they parented because they 0:12:20.262 --> 0:12:24.582 didn't want to project that anxiety onto their kids. And 0:12:24.622 --> 0:12:27.462 one of the most interesting ones was a teacher who 0:12:27.542 --> 0:12:30.262 said she'd been teaching for like more than thirty years, 0:12:30.302 --> 0:12:32.782 and at the beginning of her career, you would have 0:12:32.822 --> 0:12:35.662 school camps where maybe you went away for two nights 0:12:35.942 --> 0:12:39.942 in year maybe seven and eight, and now they can 0:12:39.982 --> 0:12:43.662 barely do one night. A significant portion of kids will 0:12:43.662 --> 0:12:46.822 not go away for one night. They cannot be apart 0:12:46.822 --> 0:12:48.942 from their parents because at that age it is the 0:12:48.982 --> 0:12:51.302 first time they will ever spend a night away from 0:12:51.662 --> 0:12:55.382 their parents, and that's causing an issue for schools. And 0:12:55.422 --> 0:12:58.662 she was saying that from a child development point of view, 0:12:59.142 --> 0:13:03.862 independence is critical at that age because everything from packing 0:13:04.062 --> 0:13:06.822 to doing the routine of brushing the teeth or having 0:13:06.862 --> 0:13:09.022 a shower or not doing those things because you're away 0:13:09.022 --> 0:13:12.662 from your parents. They're just really important milestones that we 0:13:12.822 --> 0:13:16.742 appeared to be missing. And there's a theory that Jonathan 0:13:16.822 --> 0:13:19.902 Height and a bunch of other experts put forward, which is, 0:13:20.422 --> 0:13:23.782 this is why we're having this anxious generation because they're 0:13:23.822 --> 0:13:29.182 not having enough practice at resilience and independence. 0:13:29.022 --> 0:13:30.222 And what do you think? 0:13:30.382 --> 0:13:34.502 It's really hard because I feel so bad for kids 0:13:35.102 --> 0:13:38.502 who don't get to experience a sleepover and really want to. 0:13:38.662 --> 0:13:40.782 I remember, like I don't remember much from my primary 0:13:40.782 --> 0:13:43.902 school days, but I do remember all the sleepovers I 0:13:43.982 --> 0:13:47.782 went on. I started going to sleepovers really early on 0:13:47.822 --> 0:13:50.182 when I was younger, with just my cousins like family, 0:13:50.862 --> 0:13:54.102 and I remember when I started school, my parents were 0:13:54.182 --> 0:13:57.422 a bit hesitant on taking me to sleepovers, and I 0:13:57.422 --> 0:14:00.462 think they were mainly concerned about the cultural differences. And 0:14:00.502 --> 0:14:03.102 I remember so specifically, like my Asian friends and my 0:14:03.142 --> 0:14:06.662 ethnic friends like myself were never allowed to go on sleepovers, 0:14:06.782 --> 0:14:09.302 and I think that was mainly because of the culture. 0:14:09.302 --> 0:14:12.942 I'm biguity of not knowing what happens at different people's houses. 0:14:13.382 --> 0:14:16.422 I felt so sad for those friends of mine, because 0:14:16.542 --> 0:14:19.262 I'm sure this has changed now with kids having phones 0:14:19.302 --> 0:14:23.102 and computers. But I remember after a sleepover, for weeks 0:14:23.182 --> 0:14:25.542 on end, that's all we would talk about at school 0:14:25.902 --> 0:14:28.462 was the sleepover. And there was one time in particular, 0:14:28.702 --> 0:14:30.182 I think I was around nine years old where I 0:14:30.222 --> 0:14:31.822 had a fever and I couldn't go to my friend's 0:14:31.822 --> 0:14:34.702 birthday party and it was a sleepover and I sobbed 0:14:34.942 --> 0:14:37.622 for like a week straight because that's all my friends 0:14:37.662 --> 0:14:39.982 could talk about, and it would be the most mundane 0:14:40.022 --> 0:14:43.462 little things, like remember when Jessica had that pineapple lolly, 0:14:43.502 --> 0:14:45.622 even though she said she hated pineapple lollies, Like it 0:14:45.662 --> 0:14:48.662 was those little things, but it just brought such a big, 0:14:49.182 --> 0:14:53.142 different experience into our lives. And I just remember having 0:14:53.222 --> 0:14:55.782 so much fun, and I felt so sad for my 0:14:55.862 --> 0:14:57.662 friends who weren't allowed to go. 0:14:58.142 --> 0:15:01.182 It's interesting because your point about what you just said. 0:15:01.662 --> 0:15:03.702 I think that one of the really good things about 0:15:03.782 --> 0:15:08.422 sleepovers is observing other families up close. Right if you 0:15:08.502 --> 0:15:12.502 only ever see your family and your you know, cultural setting, 0:15:12.502 --> 0:15:15.142 whatever that is, because lots of families have their own cultures, 0:15:15.142 --> 0:15:16.942 you know what I mean as well, Like if you 0:15:17.182 --> 0:15:20.142 only ever see your family up close, you assume that 0:15:20.182 --> 0:15:22.062 all of the world is like that. And I think 0:15:22.102 --> 0:15:24.662 one of the things that's really good is watching other 0:15:24.702 --> 0:15:27.462 families operate. And I'm always really conscious of that When 0:15:27.462 --> 0:15:30.262 my kids have sleepovers at our house and there are 0:15:30.302 --> 0:15:32.902 other kids there, I sort of think, oh wow, like 0:15:32.942 --> 0:15:38.022 they're kind of studying us like a documentary. I think 0:15:38.062 --> 0:15:41.902 it's really interesting, right, because I understand the anxiety obviously 0:15:41.942 --> 0:15:45.142 the serious worst case scenarios that we've discussed, but it 0:15:45.262 --> 0:15:48.102 is worth pointing out in that that sleepovers also involve 0:15:48.222 --> 0:15:51.742 grandma's house, anti's house, cousin's house. Those are also sleepovers, 0:15:52.262 --> 0:15:56.302 and the statistics will show that very often abuse occurs 0:15:56.622 --> 0:15:59.462 within families that are closed or like adults who are 0:15:59.542 --> 0:16:02.622 very close and known to you. So total control would 0:16:02.662 --> 0:16:06.462 mean no sleepovers ever, including at family's houses. Right, But 0:16:06.582 --> 0:16:10.062 then beyond that, you've got to start making some kind 0:16:10.102 --> 0:16:12.542 of risk assessment if you're going to be prepared to 0:16:12.582 --> 0:16:14.262 do it. And one of the things I feel a 0:16:14.342 --> 0:16:17.262 bit bad about this kind of some of the dialogue 0:16:17.262 --> 0:16:21.182 I've seen around this new anxiety around sleepovers and Again, 0:16:21.422 --> 0:16:23.862 it's around more what time will they go to bed, 0:16:23.902 --> 0:16:25.742 and maybe they're gonna eat something that's bad for them, 0:16:25.782 --> 0:16:27.462 Maybe they're not gonna go to bed till late, maybe 0:16:27.462 --> 0:16:30.102 they'll watch a scary movie. Is I think that this 0:16:30.182 --> 0:16:33.382 sort of value judgment around it and this idea, I've 0:16:33.382 --> 0:16:35.702 seen quite a lot of people online saying I've decided 0:16:35.702 --> 0:16:37.462 I'm not they've only got babies in there, Like I've 0:16:37.502 --> 0:16:39.502 decided I'm not gonna let my kids have sleepovers. 0:16:40.062 --> 0:16:41.022 Is if you don't have. 0:16:41.022 --> 0:16:43.102 Grandma down the road and an anti nextoor and all 0:16:43.102 --> 0:16:45.462 that things, that means you are now granting yourselves no 0:16:45.742 --> 0:16:50.062 nights off from parenting ever. Right, We're just constantly piling 0:16:50.582 --> 0:16:53.902 more and more pressure on tiny family units and then 0:16:53.982 --> 0:16:54.902 wonder why they crack. 0:16:55.062 --> 0:16:56.502 It's like what about the village? 0:16:56.542 --> 0:16:58.862 You know, Like the idea that if you don't have 0:16:58.862 --> 0:17:00.422 grandma who lives down the road and you're going to 0:17:00.502 --> 0:17:03.542 say no sleepovers, that means you and your partner, if 0:17:03.582 --> 0:17:05.381 you've got one and never gonna go and have a 0:17:05.462 --> 0:17:07.302 night away, You're never going to go out late. 0:17:07.462 --> 0:17:08.462 Like there's a whole lot of. 0:17:08.422 --> 0:17:11.302 Things you're never gonna do because you're afraid and I 0:17:11.341 --> 0:17:12.022 worry about that. 0:17:12.341 --> 0:17:15.862 Yeah, And there's this dual tension, right that our kids 0:17:15.861 --> 0:17:18.341 are spending too much time on screens and not enough 0:17:18.381 --> 0:17:22.701 time with their friends, but also this very real fear 0:17:23.341 --> 0:17:28.141 about the risks that the world offers up. So if 0:17:28.702 --> 0:17:32.342 you can't leave a kid with a family member or 0:17:32.462 --> 0:17:35.901 a friend, then they're always at home. But something's got 0:17:35.942 --> 0:17:38.462 to give, so likely there are going to be moments 0:17:38.502 --> 0:17:41.502 when they're on their screen, which we know isn't perfect either. 0:17:42.182 --> 0:17:45.742 This is massive on TikTok, on kind of parent TikTok, right, 0:17:45.782 --> 0:17:49.382 And I was listening to some of the sentences that 0:17:49.782 --> 0:17:53.141 some are experts like pediatricians, and others are parents giving 0:17:53.141 --> 0:17:56.621 some advice, and they said one was sexual assault is 0:17:56.621 --> 0:17:59.421 committed by people we know love and trust, and another 0:17:59.861 --> 0:18:01.981 was a father. And there's got so many likes and 0:18:02.101 --> 0:18:05.221 so much engagement when it comes to my kids, I 0:18:05.302 --> 0:18:08.942 don't trust anybody, and I don't think we can live 0:18:08.982 --> 0:18:12.221 in that world. On the one hand, I totally understand 0:18:12.262 --> 0:18:15.782 it if you have had that experience, I can't imagine 0:18:15.821 --> 0:18:18.061 what it would be like raising a child when you 0:18:18.101 --> 0:18:21.782 have had a traumatic experience as a child yourself. But 0:18:22.341 --> 0:18:26.061 if you haven't, I think you can mitigate risk, you 0:18:26.101 --> 0:18:29.542 can make sensible decisions from knowing who the family is, 0:18:29.581 --> 0:18:32.741 knowing who's going to be around. Interestingly, the discussion in 0:18:32.782 --> 0:18:35.341 the US, and this is relevant, is there guns in 0:18:35.381 --> 0:18:39.141 the house. Luckily that isn't one that's relevant to Australia. 0:18:39.222 --> 0:18:43.581 But I do reckon that at some point you've got 0:18:43.581 --> 0:18:47.742 to trust the adults around you and if you are 0:18:48.141 --> 0:18:52.061 sitting there with this like enormous anxiety, then your child 0:18:52.222 --> 0:18:57.702 is going to absorb that and that can't be good either, right. 0:18:57.821 --> 0:19:00.862 Yeah, But I also have a question on if something 0:19:00.982 --> 0:19:04.061 does go a bit wrong, like how do you manage 0:19:04.381 --> 0:19:08.141 the parenting after that? Like another example I had at 0:19:08.182 --> 0:19:11.621 a sleepover was I was at a friend's birthday. I 0:19:11.621 --> 0:19:15.141 think we were probably eleven years old, and two of 0:19:15.182 --> 0:19:18.542 the girls got into the mum's alcohol cabinet. 0:19:18.621 --> 0:19:21.701 Yeah, this is the most common scenario in the world, right, Okay, 0:19:21.742 --> 0:19:23.782 this is good to know because it's traumatized for life. 0:19:23.782 --> 0:19:25.221 It's the most common scenario. 0:19:25.302 --> 0:19:27.382 And they were just like swigging, I want to say, 0:19:27.462 --> 0:19:30.821 like the worst alcohol. And then they started violently throwing up. 0:19:30.861 --> 0:19:32.302 And then the mom came in and she was like, 0:19:32.341 --> 0:19:34.102 oh my god, all the parents were called, we all 0:19:34.101 --> 0:19:37.181 got picked up, but then one of them wasn't allowed 0:19:37.182 --> 0:19:39.742 to go to any sleepovers for the rest of the year, 0:19:39.982 --> 0:19:41.982 and the other one just showed up at the next party. 0:19:42.341 --> 0:19:46.421