WEBVTT - Kat Torres: The Influencer Convicted Of Human Trafficking 0:00:06.552 --> 0:00:10.072 True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 0:00:10.152 --> 0:00:16.272 waters that this podcast was recorded on social media influences. 0:00:16.712 --> 0:00:19.352 They can hold a lot of sway with their followers. 0:00:20.032 --> 0:00:23.072 After all, they can convince you to buy products, invest 0:00:23.112 --> 0:00:26.592 in bitcoin, adopt lifestyle changes, dress a certain way, get 0:00:26.592 --> 0:00:27.632 plastic surgery. 0:00:28.192 --> 0:00:30.472 But could an influencer make. 0:00:30.432 --> 0:00:34.351 You give up your life, reject your entire family and 0:00:34.391 --> 0:00:37.872 friendship circle, and become a sex worker to pay for 0:00:38.072 --> 0:00:43.391 her lifestyle. When journalists started to uncover the truth about 0:00:43.391 --> 0:00:48.111 Brazilian influencer Cat Torres, they would have no idea just 0:00:48.312 --> 0:00:52.472 how far her influence had spread and just how terrified 0:00:52.512 --> 0:00:55.352 those who'd been sucked into her web would be to 0:00:55.392 --> 0:00:59.591 share their stories. But a few brave women, some who 0:00:59.632 --> 0:01:02.752 would suffer the consequences of going up against self help 0:01:02.832 --> 0:01:06.592 guru and divine voice hearing Torres, would turn to the 0:01:06.712 --> 0:01:10.632 very same people who'd made Cat Torres famous to finally 0:01:10.672 --> 0:01:20.992 bring her undone. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True 0:01:20.992 --> 0:01:25.071 Crime Conversations, a podcast that explores the world's most notorious 0:01:25.112 --> 0:01:27.552 crimes by speaking to the people who know the most 0:01:27.551 --> 0:01:31.232 about them. Cat Torres was a poor girl from the 0:01:31.232 --> 0:01:34.831 favelas of Brazil, but she'd managed to leverage her beauty 0:01:34.952 --> 0:01:37.911 into a life that seemed almost too good to be true, 0:01:38.551 --> 0:01:41.271 with famous friends and a modeling career in Europe and 0:01:41.312 --> 0:01:44.911 then the US. Her social media feed portrayed a life 0:01:44.952 --> 0:01:48.431 of wealth and luxury, of a woman who really really 0:01:48.472 --> 0:01:53.712 made it. But looking behind that shiny social media facade 0:01:54.152 --> 0:01:58.192 was a much darker story, one of influence taken to 0:01:58.232 --> 0:02:03.392 the extreme of mind altering substances, contact with aliens, and 0:02:03.432 --> 0:02:06.512 a woman who took influencer to a level that he 0:02:06.512 --> 0:02:08.952 would not consider someone with a face as angelic as 0:02:08.992 --> 0:02:10.192 Cat Torres is was. 0:02:10.232 --> 0:02:11.152 Even capable of. 0:02:12.312 --> 0:02:16.872 How did an influencer become a cult leader and sex trafficker? 0:02:17.632 --> 0:02:20.872 Well, it was as easy as hitting like and follow. 0:02:21.672 --> 0:02:25.232 Gi Jo Feledi is a journalist, self confessed influencer himself, 0:02:25.312 --> 0:02:28.232 and the host of the Don't Cross Cat podcast. He 0:02:28.312 --> 0:02:31.632 sat down with us to discuss the intense tale of 0:02:31.712 --> 0:02:39.392 Cat Torres. Do you remember the first time you saw 0:02:39.832 --> 0:02:42.392 Cat Torres's face. I'm presuming you would have seen her 0:02:42.432 --> 0:02:44.272 on Instagram, but do you remember the first time you 0:02:44.312 --> 0:02:45.752 actually saw her face? 0:02:47.072 --> 0:02:50.912 And yeah, I do recall obviously it was on social media. 0:02:51.512 --> 0:02:54.472 She was an big online presence in Brazil, but she 0:02:54.632 --> 0:02:58.032 wasn't quite my niche. She wasn't my cup of tea. 0:02:58.552 --> 0:03:02.032 I think she was very endearing to young Brazilian women 0:03:02.192 --> 0:03:05.872 and people who dreamt the American dream. But I do 0:03:05.952 --> 0:03:10.632 recall running by her profile on Instagram prior to all 0:03:10.672 --> 0:03:14.312 the accusations and prior to all help breaking loose, and 0:03:14.352 --> 0:03:18.352 I remember thinking, oh, good, just another one, just another 0:03:18.432 --> 0:03:22.032 blonde influencer, looks like a Barbie, and who's trying to 0:03:22.112 --> 0:03:25.952 sell her stuff. She would try to sell everything, her lifestyle. 0:03:26.272 --> 0:03:28.512 She would try to sell quotes, she would try to 0:03:28.552 --> 0:03:33.312 sell tea, she would try to sell mystical consultations. And 0:03:33.352 --> 0:03:36.232 I was like, okay, one more seeing that, done that, 0:03:36.832 --> 0:03:41.392 and I was done with that. But then a couple 0:03:41.392 --> 0:03:44.592 of months later, I would say, a year later, I 0:03:44.752 --> 0:03:49.632 start hearing the news and start reading tweets about her 0:03:49.712 --> 0:03:53.952 possibly committing crimes, and then my stare at her, my 0:03:54.072 --> 0:03:56.432 glance at her switches a little bit to a more 0:03:56.552 --> 0:04:00.032 professional glance, which is not She's not my cup of 0:04:00.072 --> 0:04:04.752 tea as an influencer, But she might be holding a 0:04:04.752 --> 0:04:08.272 good story. She might be the person whose story I'm 0:04:08.272 --> 0:04:09.712 about to tell so. 0:04:09.712 --> 0:04:13.512 At no stage, looking at those initial shots of Cat Torris, 0:04:13.632 --> 0:04:16.392 do you think, yes, this is definitely the profile of 0:04:16.432 --> 0:04:19.352 a future cult leader, not. 0:04:19.432 --> 0:04:22.712 In a millionaires, not in a millionaires. She looked like 0:04:23.112 --> 0:04:27.712 another influencer, and we're crazy about influencers in Brazil, were 0:04:27.832 --> 0:04:30.712 wild about them. So there are so many of them. 0:04:31.312 --> 0:04:35.112 Never would I ever have suspected that one of them 0:04:35.232 --> 0:04:37.032 might be the leader of a company. 0:04:37.432 --> 0:04:41.432 Well, let's take a step back to where you decided 0:04:41.472 --> 0:04:44.752 to investigate Cat Torres. What was it about her story 0:04:44.752 --> 0:04:47.832 and about her case that made you think that there 0:04:47.872 --> 0:04:49.351 is something really interesting here. 0:04:49.792 --> 0:04:52.592 I like crimes that whole a bigger story behind them, 0:04:53.192 --> 0:04:56.432 And I do believe that when we talk about Cat 0:04:56.472 --> 0:04:59.792 Tooris and we talk about the power of influencers in 0:04:59.832 --> 0:05:04.592 twenty twenty five, we're talking about a game of deception. 0:05:05.272 --> 0:05:07.992 We're talking about the how much of our agency and 0:05:08.032 --> 0:05:09.912 how much of our time and how much of our 0:05:10.112 --> 0:05:13.352 energy we're giving a way to people we don't know 0:05:14.152 --> 0:05:19.912 and we're choosing to be scammed. Because it might sound 0:05:19.952 --> 0:05:22.952 a little dramatic, but I do believe that the internet, 0:05:23.032 --> 0:05:27.712 especially social media, our lives. We're lying all the time, 0:05:27.872 --> 0:05:30.952 even if not consciously We lie all the time on 0:05:30.952 --> 0:05:33.992 our social media, all of us, including myself, and I'm 0:05:33.992 --> 0:05:40.152 an influencer, so I'm shooting my own foot here. So 0:05:41.152 --> 0:05:44.032 I do think that it was about time for us 0:05:44.072 --> 0:05:48.671 as a society to start discussing what social media is 0:05:48.712 --> 0:05:52.351 doing to us and Cattorists is the ultimate example of 0:05:52.512 --> 0:05:55.392 how bad things can go if you follow someone you 0:05:55.432 --> 0:05:59.032 don't know, and you believe in someone's lives up to 0:05:59.072 --> 0:06:02.952 a point where you will give them your life basically, well. 0:06:02.872 --> 0:06:05.752 Speaking of lives, let's let's just have a little look 0:06:05.752 --> 0:06:08.072 at kattar as his life first before we get to 0:06:08.152 --> 0:06:11.992 where it led you to investigate her. What was her 0:06:12.032 --> 0:06:15.351 childhood like in Brazil? Was it a pretty standard upbringing? 0:06:15.432 --> 0:06:17.672 What do we know about her family life before all 0:06:17.712 --> 0:06:18.792 of this came to be? 0:06:19.432 --> 0:06:21.712 She was poor, And when I say poor, I mean 0:06:21.792 --> 0:06:26.432 Brazilian poor, which is so much poorer than an average 0:06:26.432 --> 0:06:31.072 Australian or an average North American. She was miserable. She 0:06:31.232 --> 0:06:36.912 was really poor. She comes from no money, really hard upbringing. 0:06:38.112 --> 0:06:41.312 She barely had food on the table. But she was 0:06:41.472 --> 0:06:46.232 graced with beauty or what people tend to find. A 0:06:46.272 --> 0:06:50.072 beautiful body, a beautiful face, a beautiful complexion, a beautiful 0:06:50.352 --> 0:06:54.792 mane of blonde hair, and she used it to get 0:06:54.872 --> 0:06:58.992 where she wanted. So she comes from a region in 0:06:58.992 --> 0:07:02.312 the Amazon Forest. She moved a lot because her father 0:07:02.472 --> 0:07:04.712 was an alcoholic and he wasn't able to keep a 0:07:04.952 --> 0:07:09.792 steady job, and she had many problems in her upbringing. 0:07:09.912 --> 0:07:14.872 She she comes from a dysfunctional family and she eventually 0:07:15.712 --> 0:07:19.472 starts working when she's fourteen or fifteen years old, always 0:07:19.592 --> 0:07:23.392 using her body and her looks in order to obtain 0:07:23.432 --> 0:07:26.672 what she wants, whether that is money, whether that is power, 0:07:26.792 --> 0:07:31.392 whether that is influenced. She it was her way out, 0:07:31.672 --> 0:07:34.112 I'd have to say, And many of her childhood friends 0:07:34.112 --> 0:07:38.352 say so. Her sister says, so she was one that 0:07:38.552 --> 0:07:42.392 used what nature had given her to get somewhere, and 0:07:42.472 --> 0:07:43.592 she did got somewhere. 0:07:45.112 --> 0:07:47.272 So modeling was her ticket out of there. 0:07:47.192 --> 0:07:53.912 Right, but first modeling, but she wouldn't quite be a 0:07:53.992 --> 0:07:57.192 fashion model. She wouldn't be in fashion shows. She wouldn't 0:07:57.192 --> 0:08:00.272 be She moved to Milan at a very young age 0:08:00.352 --> 0:08:05.112 when she turned eighteen, but she wouldn't get the prestigious gigs. 0:08:05.912 --> 0:08:10.152 So she would do laning reef photo shoots. She would 0:08:10.232 --> 0:08:13.552 do swimsuit photo shoots, all that sort of stuff. And 0:08:13.632 --> 0:08:19.312 she started having relationship with relationships with elder men when 0:08:19.352 --> 0:08:22.792 she was about nineteen or twenty years old, richer and 0:08:23.032 --> 0:08:26.112 older men who would provide for her. 0:08:27.992 --> 0:08:30.792 There was a rumor that those older men might be 0:08:30.912 --> 0:08:35.232 connected to Russian mafia. Wasn't it like that Potentially one 0:08:35.232 --> 0:08:38.352 of those men that she was I guess they call 0:08:38.392 --> 0:08:42.312 it a sugar baby for sugar Daddy was maybe even 0:08:42.352 --> 0:08:44.832 friends with Vladimir Putin. Do we even know if that 0:08:45.032 --> 0:08:48.192 was proven or was that just discussion amongst her friend group. 0:08:49.312 --> 0:08:53.392 That's that's what's very peculiar about kat story story. I mean, 0:08:53.792 --> 0:08:57.312 many of the facts that are circling around and seemed 0:08:57.432 --> 0:09:02.472 like rumors turned out to be close to truth. So 0:09:02.552 --> 0:09:06.272 her former husband, which I met in the US, Cobra 0:09:06.512 --> 0:09:10.752 Bell says, she stated herself that she had dated someone 0:09:10.872 --> 0:09:15.232 very powerful in Russia that was in the petrial industry, 0:09:16.112 --> 0:09:21.472 and she knew about geopolitics of the Middle East, of 0:09:21.552 --> 0:09:24.752 Russian and Russian well kept secrets that weren't in the 0:09:24.752 --> 0:09:29.752 New York Times. So she had access to classified information 0:09:29.832 --> 0:09:34.752 about Russian politics. So that shows that's what is very 0:09:34.792 --> 0:09:39.192 astonishing for me in cattorists in her case that many 0:09:39.232 --> 0:09:43.592 things that seem outrageous seemed impossible Semeida turned out to 0:09:43.632 --> 0:09:46.112 be true. And this is one of the facts that 0:09:46.232 --> 0:09:49.672 couldn't be verified. But many people who lived with her 0:09:49.792 --> 0:09:52.712 and were friends with her, or even her former husband, 0:09:53.592 --> 0:09:56.312 say that she had access to information that no one 0:09:56.712 --> 0:10:01.832 outside of the clothes circles of Russian oligarchs would know. 0:10:02.832 --> 0:10:07.712 So she holds truth. It's such an unbelievable whole cautionary tale, 0:10:07.712 --> 0:10:11.631 but it holds so many truths. Like dating Leonardo DiCaprio. 0:10:12.312 --> 0:10:16.712 She was reported to date Leonardo DiCaprio, and Leo's people 0:10:16.832 --> 0:10:20.511 of course denied that, but then against they were photographed 0:10:20.512 --> 0:10:25.032 together in can in Con Film Festival, so that's undeniable. 0:10:25.072 --> 0:10:27.032 I mean she was in the same room as Leonardo 0:10:27.112 --> 0:10:31.832 DiCaprio and they exchanged glances, and they touched each other 0:10:31.912 --> 0:10:34.952 and they had some physical contact. So many of the 0:10:34.992 --> 0:10:38.832 things that helped her become an influencer and famous and 0:10:38.872 --> 0:10:42.272 on social media were based on truth. If they were 0:10:42.312 --> 0:10:48.911 not altogether truth, they were pretty much based on accurate events. 0:10:49.032 --> 0:10:52.432 Can we talk about her early Instagram life, because in 0:10:52.472 --> 0:10:57.032 the beginning, it was about ensuring people believe that she 0:10:57.192 --> 0:11:00.872 was living that rich and fast lifestyle, that she was 0:11:01.032 --> 0:11:04.352 actually in that crowd and was earning that kind of money. 0:11:04.392 --> 0:11:08.792 And her husband told you about like having to quickly 0:11:08.872 --> 0:11:11.472 take photos of her up against rich people's cars, which 0:11:11.552 --> 0:11:14.392 obviously not hers, like ferraris, et cetera, but like having 0:11:14.392 --> 0:11:17.112 to get the shop really quick before anyone busted them. 0:11:17.152 --> 0:11:20.192 Basically, yeah, she was faking it until she made it. 0:11:20.712 --> 0:11:23.391 She was pretending she was a millionaire in the US, 0:11:23.472 --> 0:11:26.152 which is something that holds a lot of value in Brazil. 0:11:26.712 --> 0:11:29.312 In Brazilia and the whole Latin America would look up 0:11:29.352 --> 0:11:35.272 to the US, especially people who don't have many opportunities here, 0:11:35.352 --> 0:11:38.272 who couldn't go to college and who couldn't get a 0:11:38.312 --> 0:11:42.992 new job. They see moving to America as a potential 0:11:43.112 --> 0:11:47.752 to get rich and to have accessed to a wealth 0:11:47.832 --> 0:11:50.952 they wouldn't have in Latin America. And she was playing 0:11:51.072 --> 0:11:54.232 downright for those people. She was acting as if she 0:11:54.312 --> 0:11:57.552 was shopping Gucci in Prada, and so she was taking 0:11:57.592 --> 0:12:00.992 pictures with Gucci bags over her badge. She was taking 0:12:01.112 --> 0:12:03.992 pictures lying down in the hood of a Ferrari, which 0:12:04.112 --> 0:12:06.792 wasn't hers. She would just go out and street and 0:12:07.152 --> 0:12:09.552 act as if she had a writ she didn't. She 0:12:09.592 --> 0:12:12.152 would go into five star hotels and ask to see 0:12:12.192 --> 0:12:14.992 a room, and then you have several pictures taken inside 0:12:15.072 --> 0:12:18.512 that room and said, yeah, I'm staying here at the Marriott, 0:12:18.552 --> 0:12:21.392 I'm staying here at the Four Seasons Beverly Hills. And 0:12:21.432 --> 0:12:26.592 she actually wasn't. But the fact is she was actually 0:12:27.592 --> 0:12:31.232 getting somewhere in the US. Her projection of image on 0:12:31.352 --> 0:12:34.392 Instagram and social media wasn't completely fath I mean she 0:12:34.512 --> 0:12:37.832 made it to a music video of a fast and 0:12:37.912 --> 0:12:42.352 furious song that was on the franchise of the movies. 0:12:42.432 --> 0:12:44.752 I mean that is big for someone who came from 0:12:45.192 --> 0:12:49.272 South America with nothing and had no parents and no 0:12:49.392 --> 0:12:52.632 relations in the US. I mean, she achieved things, but 0:12:53.032 --> 0:12:57.512 of course she would showcase on the Internet a larger 0:12:57.632 --> 0:13:02.352 version of those things she had achieved, or a misperception 0:13:02.472 --> 0:13:05.952 of those things she had achieved. She would act as 0:13:06.032 --> 0:13:09.552 if she was Angelina Julie or something, whereas she was 0:13:10.152 --> 0:13:13.271 I he will be an actress who was struggling, who 0:13:13.352 --> 0:13:15.312 was hustling a lot in the US. 0:13:16.192 --> 0:13:20.232 So that does evolve over time, that Instagram presence. Do 0:13:20.272 --> 0:13:24.312 we know what started that shift from trying to live 0:13:24.432 --> 0:13:27.312 that life to trying to be more of. 0:13:27.272 --> 0:13:31.632 A guru once again. I think there's some players of 0:13:31.712 --> 0:13:35.872 truth to her change, because she started going to aauasca 0:13:36.032 --> 0:13:38.952 rich wolfs, which is the root of the tree in 0:13:39.032 --> 0:13:43.312 the Amazon in Brazil that has psychedelic effects, and it's 0:13:43.312 --> 0:13:46.592 a religion in Brazil. It's an ancient religion which is 0:13:46.712 --> 0:13:51.232 used by indigenous communities. But then she started hanging out 0:13:51.272 --> 0:13:53.592 with some people in Hollywood who would drink the tree 0:13:53.832 --> 0:13:56.792 the tea, but they were not related to the Brazilian 0:13:56.832 --> 0:13:59.872 tradition at all. It was more of a party, was 0:13:59.912 --> 0:14:03.672 more of a new vibe thing. People close to her 0:14:03.712 --> 0:14:06.912 and even herself told me that she actually believed in 0:14:06.952 --> 0:14:09.112 the tea, and the tea changed her mind, and she 0:14:09.232 --> 0:14:12.752 did become more spiritualized to the point of thinking she 0:14:12.832 --> 0:14:15.512 was able to talk to God saying out loud. She 0:14:15.592 --> 0:14:19.272 was able to have conversations with Jesus and aliens. So 0:14:19.432 --> 0:14:23.512 I do believe there was a fruitful winner change in 0:14:23.552 --> 0:14:27.192 her prior to changing her niche on Instagram. I don't 0:14:27.192 --> 0:14:29.712 think it was just a business plan. Now I'm going 0:14:29.792 --> 0:14:32.312 to serve new age and I'm going to sell yoga 0:14:32.352 --> 0:14:35.472 clothes and I'm going to sell I do tend to believe, 0:14:35.712 --> 0:14:38.912 And we have learned that she actually changed herself. Prior 0:14:40.032 --> 0:14:42.192 to changing her online personace. 0:14:43.192 --> 0:14:47.352 She wrote a book called The Voice, which she did 0:14:47.392 --> 0:14:49.992 do an interview with the Brazilian talk show host about 0:14:50.032 --> 0:14:52.592 and admitted that she'd written the entire thing whilst in 0:14:52.592 --> 0:14:55.512 a trance. But what was this book about and what 0:14:55.672 --> 0:14:57.352 is this voice that she's referring to? 0:14:58.392 --> 0:15:02.192 She says in the book and in the interview with 0:15:02.232 --> 0:15:06.272 Amaldis Junior that she had a connection with a voice 0:15:06.672 --> 0:15:10.912 that could be God eventually could be Aliens. She changes 0:15:10.952 --> 0:15:13.752 her version quite a bit, that would tell her things 0:15:13.832 --> 0:15:16.872 about the future, would predict the future, would let her 0:15:17.512 --> 0:15:22.632 read other people's minds. And she said she drifted apart 0:15:22.672 --> 0:15:25.392 from the voice when she was at an early age, 0:15:25.432 --> 0:15:29.392 but after starting having ayahuasca, she got in touch again 0:15:29.432 --> 0:15:33.192 with a voice. She restated this contact with the voice 0:15:33.232 --> 0:15:36.512 she heard in her mind, which is hard to define 0:15:36.512 --> 0:15:39.952 because she herself is not able to define it very well. 0:15:40.432 --> 0:15:42.912 But I would say it's a voice that sometimes it's 0:15:42.992 --> 0:15:47.272 God and sometimes it's Aliens. It's fishy. It's hard to 0:15:47.672 --> 0:15:50.832 try to make sense out of it because it's very nonsensical, 0:15:51.712 --> 0:15:55.152 but that's what she says in the book. It's a 0:15:55.192 --> 0:16:00.072 memoir book in which she narrates her life with changes 0:16:00.312 --> 0:16:04.992 and facts that are not verifiable and things that are 0:16:05.272 --> 0:16:08.992 bluntly why. But it's her version of her own story. 0:16:09.032 --> 0:16:11.032 The book is her version of her own story. And 0:16:11.072 --> 0:16:14.712 it was really successful in Brazil. It wasn't a bestseller 0:16:14.832 --> 0:16:18.352 or anything, but it did reach many young women who 0:16:18.392 --> 0:16:21.952 looked up at Kat and who admired her, and who 0:16:22.032 --> 0:16:26.152 started believing she was a guru, believing she could help 0:16:26.192 --> 0:16:28.272 them out with her superpowers. 0:16:28.712 --> 0:16:30.992 So through this time, her online following goes from like 0:16:31.072 --> 0:16:33.272 a couple one hundred thousand to more than a million, 0:16:33.712 --> 0:16:37.392 and so she's really starting to influence a significant amount 0:16:37.432 --> 0:16:41.472 of people. And she's utilizing this voice that you described 0:16:41.592 --> 0:16:45.592 to have these one on one consultations with women about 0:16:45.912 --> 0:16:49.832 a myriad of things, their career choices, their families, about 0:16:49.872 --> 0:16:53.312 their relationships. But what are we finding out that she's 0:16:53.352 --> 0:16:57.432 actually telling these women in these consultations, Because you did 0:16:57.552 --> 0:17:00.312 speak to some women who'd had those consultations and who 0:17:00.352 --> 0:17:03.632 had friends who'd had these consultations. What was she doing 0:17:03.712 --> 0:17:09.512 and telling these people to do during those one on ones, she. 0:17:09.591 --> 0:17:14.391 Was pretty much advising young women to be submissive and 0:17:14.472 --> 0:17:19.552 to look for rich men and to act very girl 0:17:19.631 --> 0:17:23.591 like around them, and to pretend to be more frail 0:17:23.671 --> 0:17:26.871 than they actually were, and to drop out of college 0:17:27.512 --> 0:17:30.511 and to try to get pregnant with someone who was 0:17:30.591 --> 0:17:35.032 richer than them. So it was very I would say 0:17:35.391 --> 0:17:41.391 it would Dwelve a little misogyny. They were very misogynistic advices. 0:17:42.311 --> 0:17:46.272 And I've heard from tens of people who had consultations 0:17:46.272 --> 0:17:49.911 with her and who followed her advice. And she would 0:17:49.952 --> 0:17:53.392 even tell people who were in an abusive relationship who 0:17:53.431 --> 0:17:57.351 were better women, who were actually better not to look 0:17:57.391 --> 0:18:00.231 for the police, not to call the police, not to 0:18:00.272 --> 0:18:03.591 break up with the boyfriend, not because that was male energy. 0:18:03.671 --> 0:18:08.071 So it's a little surprising that a self made woman 0:18:10.232 --> 0:18:16.032 would She was almost like a rad Piel in that sense. 0:18:18.591 --> 0:18:22.071 When does it start to change from having these one 0:18:22.111 --> 0:18:25.991 on one consultations and giving women advice like that to 0:18:26.071 --> 0:18:29.431 her kind of flipping to wanting women to come and 0:18:29.431 --> 0:18:33.671 physically join her and live with her because she's moved 0:18:33.671 --> 0:18:36.871 to Texas by this stage with another man, not the 0:18:36.952 --> 0:18:40.591 husband that you referred to earlier. She's divorcing him, but 0:18:40.671 --> 0:18:44.272 then she wants to create essentially a witch's coven. 0:18:46.272 --> 0:18:49.111 It's not quite clear because she wouldn't tell it outright 0:18:49.351 --> 0:18:53.351 the to her clients, to her followers, she would always 0:18:53.431 --> 0:18:56.911 ask for help for the first at least for the 0:18:56.952 --> 0:19:00.512 first couple of them. Referretas always. One of the main 0:19:00.591 --> 0:19:04.752 characters of from Crosscat. The podcast was told that Kat 0:19:04.952 --> 0:19:07.632 was in a bad place and she was having suicidal 0:19:07.712 --> 0:19:10.591 thoughts and she needed someone to be around her, so 0:19:10.671 --> 0:19:13.311 she didn't quite invite desire to live with her to 0:19:13.431 --> 0:19:16.151 work with her. She was like, I'm not feeling good. 0:19:16.192 --> 0:19:20.111 I'm in a bad place. I'm afraid I might hurt myself. 0:19:20.472 --> 0:19:23.272 Can you come here and keep me company? And Kat 0:19:24.232 --> 0:19:27.752 buys her plane ticket to go to Texas and live 0:19:27.792 --> 0:19:31.752 with her, allegedly to help her out through dark times. 0:19:32.111 --> 0:19:38.552 When desire gets there, Kat starts proposing her a business partnership, 0:19:39.351 --> 0:19:43.472 and she says they will have a holistic clinic together. 0:19:43.631 --> 0:19:47.032 They will open up ASPA, a place of well being, 0:19:47.032 --> 0:19:49.631 but they would need the resources for that, so Desiree 0:19:50.391 --> 0:19:54.911 should get that money somehow, and she suggests Desi. Ray 0:19:54.992 --> 0:19:58.391 starts dancing in street clubs and THATSI, Ray starts doing 0:19:58.391 --> 0:19:58.871 sex work. 0:19:59.272 --> 0:20:02.111 She's not the only one, right. There were several women 0:20:02.192 --> 0:20:05.792 who waded up going to Texas with I, all essentially 0:20:05.831 --> 0:20:09.912 forced in domestic labor or sex work whilst living with Can. 0:20:11.472 --> 0:20:16.671 We've got in touch with three women who were able 0:20:16.712 --> 0:20:19.031 to prove they labeled her in Texas, and two of 0:20:19.071 --> 0:20:24.591 them report that they were cohers to dance in strip 0:20:24.671 --> 0:20:27.872 clubs and to do sex work. And the third one 0:20:27.911 --> 0:20:32.071 of them, Jamila, who was a yoga teacher already in 0:20:32.111 --> 0:20:33.911 the US. She was living in the US in the 0:20:33.952 --> 0:20:37.232 Boston region. She moved to Texas because she was about 0:20:37.272 --> 0:20:40.871 to be affected. She was about to become homeless, and 0:20:40.911 --> 0:20:44.951 she moves to Texas to teach yoga to Cat and 0:20:45.032 --> 0:20:48.192 two Cat's followers. She gets there, there's no yoga classes, 0:20:48.512 --> 0:20:52.432 and she has to drive Kat around to be Cat's chauffeur, 0:20:52.591 --> 0:20:56.311 Cat's driver and to clean the house up. But she 0:20:56.391 --> 0:21:00.032 refuses to dance at a strip club, and she refuses 0:21:00.111 --> 0:21:02.712 to do sex work, so she only stays there for 0:21:02.752 --> 0:21:05.952 a couple of weeks and leaves, whereas the other two 0:21:07.071 --> 0:21:12.071 eventually so come eventually agree with Cat's requests and Cat's 0:21:12.192 --> 0:21:15.911 orders and start working in the sex business in the US. 0:21:16.351 --> 0:21:19.032 Do these women ever see any of the money that 0:21:19.111 --> 0:21:21.831 they are generating for Cat? 0:21:21.992 --> 0:21:23.951 Like, how are they surviving? 0:21:26.391 --> 0:21:29.351 I mean they were staying at Cat's house if one 0:21:29.391 --> 0:21:33.432 of them had a room. But it's a classic case 0:21:33.472 --> 0:21:36.391 of human traffickings. She would say she needed to pay 0:21:36.431 --> 0:21:40.151 for the groceries, she needed to pay for the guests 0:21:40.192 --> 0:21:42.311 to drive them to the strip club. She needed to 0:21:42.351 --> 0:21:45.512 pay for all of her basic needs. So Cat toorists 0:21:45.512 --> 0:21:49.431 would keep all the money they would make doing sex 0:21:49.472 --> 0:21:52.912 work or dancing at strip clubs, and she would keep 0:21:53.911 --> 0:21:56.672 keep it pretty much out to herself. So they would 0:21:56.752 --> 0:21:59.552 make thousands of dollars a night and they would not 0:21:59.712 --> 0:22:01.831 see this money. They would come home and they would 0:22:01.831 --> 0:22:06.232 have to hand out each and every dollar bill to Cat, 0:22:06.591 --> 0:22:10.391 who put it away and said she was saving that 0:22:10.512 --> 0:22:13.231 money so she could invest in the business they would 0:22:13.272 --> 0:22:17.431 eventually open up together, which wasn't quite true. She was 0:22:18.032 --> 0:22:21.992 spending that money in her lavish lifestyle. She then would 0:22:21.992 --> 0:22:25.112 show on Instagram to get more followers and get more 0:22:25.192 --> 0:22:25.911 people to live with. 0:22:28.071 --> 0:22:31.231 You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 0:22:31.552 --> 0:22:34.471 I'm speaking with Chicho Feliti, host of the Don't Cross 0:22:34.552 --> 0:22:39.231 Cat podcast. Up next, we uncover what Cat was telling 0:22:39.272 --> 0:22:42.631 women to keep them from leaving once they'd realized that 0:22:42.671 --> 0:22:48.232 they weren't there for the reason she'd claimed. How did 0:22:48.311 --> 0:22:52.951 she convince these women to stay after they realized that 0:22:52.952 --> 0:22:55.671 they're not there for the purposes that Cat has drawn 0:22:55.752 --> 0:23:00.191 them in? As like, cult leaders employ lots of different 0:23:00.232 --> 0:23:02.992 tactics to keep people believing in what they're telling them. 0:23:03.071 --> 0:23:05.032 What was Kat telling them and what was she doing 0:23:05.071 --> 0:23:07.071 to make sure that these women didn't up and leave? 0:23:07.831 --> 0:23:11.272 I do think it's a complicated issue because human trafficking 0:23:11.472 --> 0:23:16.192 and cult leaders employ different forms of coercion, which are 0:23:16.232 --> 0:23:20.311 not specifically locking a door kicking someone at gunpoint. But 0:23:20.472 --> 0:23:23.831 these people who went to live with her, not Jamila Jamila. 0:23:23.911 --> 0:23:25.871 I think that's why Jamila was able to get away 0:23:25.911 --> 0:23:28.551 so quickly, because she wasn't a follower of cats. She 0:23:28.631 --> 0:23:31.071 did not buy the kool aide, She did not believe 0:23:31.071 --> 0:23:34.071 in anything. She thought it was all mumbo jumbo in 0:23:34.111 --> 0:23:37.311 her words. But the other two women who ended up 0:23:37.351 --> 0:23:40.672 living with her in Texas, they really believed in her. 0:23:40.752 --> 0:23:44.631 They had paid her thousands of dollars for counseling, and 0:23:44.671 --> 0:23:47.712 they really saw her as an idol and a friend. 0:23:48.071 --> 0:23:52.671 So at first there's a flattering sense of this person 0:23:52.712 --> 0:23:55.232 I admire so much. I know from the internet she's 0:23:55.272 --> 0:23:58.552 so famous. She actually wants to live with me, so 0:23:58.712 --> 0:24:05.471 that's almost like an awarding feeling. And they also believed, 0:24:05.752 --> 0:24:09.432 or claimed they believe in her superpowers, so they were 0:24:09.472 --> 0:24:12.472 afraid that she would manage them. She would threaten them 0:24:12.752 --> 0:24:14.711 by saying, I can do bad things to you and 0:24:14.752 --> 0:24:16.912 to your family. I can use the voice to make 0:24:16.952 --> 0:24:20.111 your life miserable. And there are recordings of her saying 0:24:20.591 --> 0:24:24.111 she's able to make someone have butt cancer, and that's 0:24:24.151 --> 0:24:26.792 the term she uses, but canser, I'm giving you butt 0:24:26.831 --> 0:24:30.591 cancer with my words. So they actually believed in the 0:24:30.631 --> 0:24:35.351 witchcraft and all of the domestical stuff Kat was selling online. 0:24:35.431 --> 0:24:38.071 So I do think that was part of what led 0:24:38.111 --> 0:24:41.032 them to stay in the US, even though they were 0:24:41.151 --> 0:24:44.112 being clearly abused. They have been traffic. 0:24:44.552 --> 0:24:47.911 This is something that seems to be a thread throughout 0:24:48.071 --> 0:24:50.912 all of this in your podcast and every other thing 0:24:50.952 --> 0:24:53.192 that I've seen about Kat Toros is that people are 0:24:53.351 --> 0:24:56.871 genuinely terrified of her. Like the people who have since 0:24:56.911 --> 0:25:00.112 spoken out after everything happened, a lot of them want 0:25:00.151 --> 0:25:02.911 to remain anonymous because they don't want to be targeted. 0:25:04.032 --> 0:25:08.831