1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:16,272 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on social media influences. 3 00:00:16,712 --> 00:00:19,352 Speaker 1: They can hold a lot of sway with their followers. 4 00:00:20,032 --> 00:00:23,072 Speaker 1: After all, they can convince you to buy products, invest 5 00:00:23,112 --> 00:00:26,592 Speaker 1: in bitcoin, adopt lifestyle changes, dress a certain way, get 6 00:00:26,592 --> 00:00:27,632 Speaker 1: plastic surgery. 7 00:00:28,192 --> 00:00:30,472 Speaker 2: But could an influencer make. 8 00:00:30,432 --> 00:00:34,351 Speaker 1: You give up your life, reject your entire family and 9 00:00:34,391 --> 00:00:37,872 Speaker 1: friendship circle, and become a sex worker to pay for 10 00:00:38,072 --> 00:00:43,391 Speaker 1: her lifestyle. When journalists started to uncover the truth about 11 00:00:43,391 --> 00:00:48,111 Speaker 1: Brazilian influencer Cat Torres, they would have no idea just 12 00:00:48,312 --> 00:00:52,472 Speaker 1: how far her influence had spread and just how terrified 13 00:00:52,512 --> 00:00:55,352 Speaker 1: those who'd been sucked into her web would be to 14 00:00:55,392 --> 00:00:59,591 Speaker 1: share their stories. But a few brave women, some who 15 00:00:59,632 --> 00:01:02,752 Speaker 1: would suffer the consequences of going up against self help 16 00:01:02,832 --> 00:01:06,592 Speaker 1: guru and divine voice hearing Torres, would turn to the 17 00:01:06,712 --> 00:01:10,632 Speaker 1: very same people who'd made Cat Torres famous to finally 18 00:01:10,672 --> 00:01:20,992 Speaker 1: bring her undone. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True 19 00:01:20,992 --> 00:01:25,071 Speaker 1: Crime Conversations, a podcast that explores the world's most notorious 20 00:01:25,112 --> 00:01:27,552 Speaker 1: crimes by speaking to the people who know the most 21 00:01:27,551 --> 00:01:31,232 Speaker 1: about them. Cat Torres was a poor girl from the 22 00:01:31,232 --> 00:01:34,831 Speaker 1: favelas of Brazil, but she'd managed to leverage her beauty 23 00:01:34,952 --> 00:01:37,911 Speaker 1: into a life that seemed almost too good to be true, 24 00:01:38,551 --> 00:01:41,271 Speaker 1: with famous friends and a modeling career in Europe and 25 00:01:41,312 --> 00:01:44,911 Speaker 1: then the US. Her social media feed portrayed a life 26 00:01:44,952 --> 00:01:48,431 Speaker 1: of wealth and luxury, of a woman who really really 27 00:01:48,472 --> 00:01:53,712 Speaker 1: made it. But looking behind that shiny social media facade 28 00:01:54,152 --> 00:01:58,192 Speaker 1: was a much darker story, one of influence taken to 29 00:01:58,232 --> 00:02:03,392 Speaker 1: the extreme of mind altering substances, contact with aliens, and 30 00:02:03,432 --> 00:02:06,512 Speaker 1: a woman who took influencer to a level that he 31 00:02:06,512 --> 00:02:08,952 Speaker 1: would not consider someone with a face as angelic as 32 00:02:08,992 --> 00:02:10,192 Speaker 1: Cat Torres is was. 33 00:02:10,232 --> 00:02:11,152 Speaker 2: Even capable of. 34 00:02:12,312 --> 00:02:16,872 Speaker 1: How did an influencer become a cult leader and sex trafficker? 35 00:02:17,632 --> 00:02:20,872 Speaker 2: Well, it was as easy as hitting like and follow. 36 00:02:21,672 --> 00:02:25,232 Speaker 1: Gi Jo Feledi is a journalist, self confessed influencer himself, 37 00:02:25,312 --> 00:02:28,232 Speaker 1: and the host of the Don't Cross Cat podcast. He 38 00:02:28,312 --> 00:02:31,632 Speaker 1: sat down with us to discuss the intense tale of 39 00:02:31,712 --> 00:02:39,392 Speaker 1: Cat Torres. Do you remember the first time you saw 40 00:02:39,832 --> 00:02:42,392 Speaker 1: Cat Torres's face. I'm presuming you would have seen her 41 00:02:42,432 --> 00:02:44,272 Speaker 1: on Instagram, but do you remember the first time you 42 00:02:44,312 --> 00:02:45,752 Speaker 1: actually saw her face? 43 00:02:47,072 --> 00:02:50,912 Speaker 3: And yeah, I do recall obviously it was on social media. 44 00:02:51,512 --> 00:02:54,472 Speaker 3: She was an big online presence in Brazil, but she 45 00:02:54,632 --> 00:02:58,032 Speaker 3: wasn't quite my niche. She wasn't my cup of tea. 46 00:02:58,552 --> 00:03:02,032 Speaker 3: I think she was very endearing to young Brazilian women 47 00:03:02,192 --> 00:03:05,872 Speaker 3: and people who dreamt the American dream. But I do 48 00:03:05,952 --> 00:03:10,632 Speaker 3: recall running by her profile on Instagram prior to all 49 00:03:10,672 --> 00:03:14,312 Speaker 3: the accusations and prior to all help breaking loose, and 50 00:03:14,352 --> 00:03:18,352 Speaker 3: I remember thinking, oh, good, just another one, just another 51 00:03:18,432 --> 00:03:22,032 Speaker 3: blonde influencer, looks like a Barbie, and who's trying to 52 00:03:22,112 --> 00:03:25,952 Speaker 3: sell her stuff. She would try to sell everything, her lifestyle. 53 00:03:26,272 --> 00:03:28,512 Speaker 3: She would try to sell quotes, she would try to 54 00:03:28,552 --> 00:03:33,312 Speaker 3: sell tea, she would try to sell mystical consultations. And 55 00:03:33,352 --> 00:03:36,232 Speaker 3: I was like, okay, one more seeing that, done that, 56 00:03:36,832 --> 00:03:41,392 Speaker 3: and I was done with that. But then a couple 57 00:03:41,392 --> 00:03:44,592 Speaker 3: of months later, I would say, a year later, I 58 00:03:44,752 --> 00:03:49,632 Speaker 3: start hearing the news and start reading tweets about her 59 00:03:49,712 --> 00:03:53,952 Speaker 3: possibly committing crimes, and then my stare at her, my 60 00:03:54,072 --> 00:03:56,432 Speaker 3: glance at her switches a little bit to a more 61 00:03:56,552 --> 00:04:00,032 Speaker 3: professional glance, which is not She's not my cup of 62 00:04:00,072 --> 00:04:04,752 Speaker 3: tea as an influencer, But she might be holding a 63 00:04:04,752 --> 00:04:08,272 Speaker 3: good story. She might be the person whose story I'm 64 00:04:08,272 --> 00:04:09,712 Speaker 3: about to tell so. 65 00:04:09,712 --> 00:04:13,512 Speaker 1: At no stage, looking at those initial shots of Cat Torris, 66 00:04:13,632 --> 00:04:16,392 Speaker 1: do you think, yes, this is definitely the profile of 67 00:04:16,432 --> 00:04:19,352 Speaker 1: a future cult leader, not. 68 00:04:19,432 --> 00:04:22,712 Speaker 3: In a millionaires, not in a millionaires. She looked like 69 00:04:23,112 --> 00:04:27,712 Speaker 3: another influencer, and we're crazy about influencers in Brazil, were 70 00:04:27,832 --> 00:04:30,712 Speaker 3: wild about them. So there are so many of them. 71 00:04:31,312 --> 00:04:35,112 Speaker 3: Never would I ever have suspected that one of them 72 00:04:35,232 --> 00:04:37,032 Speaker 3: might be the leader of a company. 73 00:04:37,432 --> 00:04:41,432 Speaker 1: Well, let's take a step back to where you decided 74 00:04:41,472 --> 00:04:44,752 Speaker 1: to investigate Cat Torres. What was it about her story 75 00:04:44,752 --> 00:04:47,832 Speaker 1: and about her case that made you think that there 76 00:04:47,872 --> 00:04:49,351 Speaker 1: is something really interesting here. 77 00:04:49,792 --> 00:04:52,592 Speaker 3: I like crimes that whole a bigger story behind them, 78 00:04:53,192 --> 00:04:56,432 Speaker 3: And I do believe that when we talk about Cat 79 00:04:56,472 --> 00:04:59,792 Speaker 3: Tooris and we talk about the power of influencers in 80 00:04:59,832 --> 00:05:04,592 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, we're talking about a game of deception. 81 00:05:05,272 --> 00:05:07,992 Speaker 3: We're talking about the how much of our agency and 82 00:05:08,032 --> 00:05:09,912 Speaker 3: how much of our time and how much of our 83 00:05:10,112 --> 00:05:13,352 Speaker 3: energy we're giving a way to people we don't know 84 00:05:14,152 --> 00:05:19,912 Speaker 3: and we're choosing to be scammed. Because it might sound 85 00:05:19,952 --> 00:05:22,952 Speaker 3: a little dramatic, but I do believe that the internet, 86 00:05:23,032 --> 00:05:27,712 Speaker 3: especially social media, our lives. We're lying all the time, 87 00:05:27,872 --> 00:05:30,952 Speaker 3: even if not consciously We lie all the time on 88 00:05:30,952 --> 00:05:33,992 Speaker 3: our social media, all of us, including myself, and I'm 89 00:05:33,992 --> 00:05:40,152 Speaker 3: an influencer, so I'm shooting my own foot here. So 90 00:05:41,152 --> 00:05:44,032 Speaker 3: I do think that it was about time for us 91 00:05:44,072 --> 00:05:48,671 Speaker 3: as a society to start discussing what social media is 92 00:05:48,712 --> 00:05:52,351 Speaker 3: doing to us and Cattorists is the ultimate example of 93 00:05:52,512 --> 00:05:55,392 Speaker 3: how bad things can go if you follow someone you 94 00:05:55,432 --> 00:05:59,032 Speaker 3: don't know, and you believe in someone's lives up to 95 00:05:59,072 --> 00:06:02,952 Speaker 3: a point where you will give them your life basically, well. 96 00:06:02,872 --> 00:06:05,752 Speaker 1: Speaking of lives, let's let's just have a little look 97 00:06:05,752 --> 00:06:08,072 Speaker 1: at kattar as his life first before we get to 98 00:06:08,152 --> 00:06:11,992 Speaker 1: where it led you to investigate her. What was her 99 00:06:12,032 --> 00:06:15,351 Speaker 1: childhood like in Brazil? Was it a pretty standard upbringing? 100 00:06:15,432 --> 00:06:17,672 Speaker 1: What do we know about her family life before all 101 00:06:17,712 --> 00:06:18,792 Speaker 1: of this came to be? 102 00:06:19,432 --> 00:06:21,712 Speaker 3: She was poor, And when I say poor, I mean 103 00:06:21,792 --> 00:06:26,432 Speaker 3: Brazilian poor, which is so much poorer than an average 104 00:06:26,432 --> 00:06:31,072 Speaker 3: Australian or an average North American. She was miserable. She 105 00:06:31,232 --> 00:06:36,912 Speaker 3: was really poor. She comes from no money, really hard upbringing. 106 00:06:38,112 --> 00:06:41,312 Speaker 3: She barely had food on the table. But she was 107 00:06:41,472 --> 00:06:46,232 Speaker 3: graced with beauty or what people tend to find. A 108 00:06:46,272 --> 00:06:50,072 Speaker 3: beautiful body, a beautiful face, a beautiful complexion, a beautiful 109 00:06:50,352 --> 00:06:54,792 Speaker 3: mane of blonde hair, and she used it to get 110 00:06:54,872 --> 00:06:58,992 Speaker 3: where she wanted. So she comes from a region in 111 00:06:58,992 --> 00:07:02,312 Speaker 3: the Amazon Forest. She moved a lot because her father 112 00:07:02,472 --> 00:07:04,712 Speaker 3: was an alcoholic and he wasn't able to keep a 113 00:07:04,952 --> 00:07:09,792 Speaker 3: steady job, and she had many problems in her upbringing. 114 00:07:09,912 --> 00:07:14,872 Speaker 3: She she comes from a dysfunctional family and she eventually 115 00:07:15,712 --> 00:07:19,472 Speaker 3: starts working when she's fourteen or fifteen years old, always 116 00:07:19,592 --> 00:07:23,392 Speaker 3: using her body and her looks in order to obtain 117 00:07:23,432 --> 00:07:26,672 Speaker 3: what she wants, whether that is money, whether that is power, 118 00:07:26,792 --> 00:07:31,392 Speaker 3: whether that is influenced. She it was her way out, 119 00:07:31,672 --> 00:07:34,112 Speaker 3: I'd have to say, And many of her childhood friends 120 00:07:34,112 --> 00:07:38,352 Speaker 3: say so. Her sister says, so she was one that 121 00:07:38,552 --> 00:07:42,392 Speaker 3: used what nature had given her to get somewhere, and 122 00:07:42,472 --> 00:07:43,592 Speaker 3: she did got somewhere. 123 00:07:45,112 --> 00:07:47,272 Speaker 2: So modeling was her ticket out of there. 124 00:07:47,192 --> 00:07:53,912 Speaker 3: Right, but first modeling, but she wouldn't quite be a 125 00:07:53,992 --> 00:07:57,192 Speaker 3: fashion model. She wouldn't be in fashion shows. She wouldn't 126 00:07:57,192 --> 00:08:00,272 Speaker 3: be She moved to Milan at a very young age 127 00:08:00,352 --> 00:08:05,112 Speaker 3: when she turned eighteen, but she wouldn't get the prestigious gigs. 128 00:08:05,912 --> 00:08:10,152 Speaker 3: So she would do laning reef photo shoots. She would 129 00:08:10,232 --> 00:08:13,552 Speaker 3: do swimsuit photo shoots, all that sort of stuff. And 130 00:08:13,632 --> 00:08:19,312 Speaker 3: she started having relationship with relationships with elder men when 131 00:08:19,352 --> 00:08:22,792 Speaker 3: she was about nineteen or twenty years old, richer and 132 00:08:23,032 --> 00:08:26,112 Speaker 3: older men who would provide for her. 133 00:08:27,992 --> 00:08:30,792 Speaker 1: There was a rumor that those older men might be 134 00:08:30,912 --> 00:08:35,232 Speaker 1: connected to Russian mafia. Wasn't it like that Potentially one 135 00:08:35,232 --> 00:08:38,352 Speaker 1: of those men that she was I guess they call 136 00:08:38,392 --> 00:08:42,312 Speaker 1: it a sugar baby for sugar Daddy was maybe even 137 00:08:42,352 --> 00:08:44,832 Speaker 1: friends with Vladimir Putin. Do we even know if that 138 00:08:45,032 --> 00:08:48,192 Speaker 1: was proven or was that just discussion amongst her friend group. 139 00:08:49,312 --> 00:08:53,392 Speaker 3: That's that's what's very peculiar about kat story story. I mean, 140 00:08:53,792 --> 00:08:57,312 Speaker 3: many of the facts that are circling around and seemed 141 00:08:57,432 --> 00:09:02,472 Speaker 3: like rumors turned out to be close to truth. So 142 00:09:02,552 --> 00:09:06,272 Speaker 3: her former husband, which I met in the US, Cobra 143 00:09:06,512 --> 00:09:10,752 Speaker 3: Bell says, she stated herself that she had dated someone 144 00:09:10,872 --> 00:09:15,232 Speaker 3: very powerful in Russia that was in the petrial industry, 145 00:09:16,112 --> 00:09:21,472 Speaker 3: and she knew about geopolitics of the Middle East, of 146 00:09:21,552 --> 00:09:24,752 Speaker 3: Russian and Russian well kept secrets that weren't in the 147 00:09:24,752 --> 00:09:29,752 Speaker 3: New York Times. So she had access to classified information 148 00:09:29,832 --> 00:09:34,752 Speaker 3: about Russian politics. So that shows that's what is very 149 00:09:34,792 --> 00:09:39,192 Speaker 3: astonishing for me in cattorists in her case that many 150 00:09:39,232 --> 00:09:43,592 Speaker 3: things that seem outrageous seemed impossible Semeida turned out to 151 00:09:43,632 --> 00:09:46,112 Speaker 3: be true. And this is one of the facts that 152 00:09:46,232 --> 00:09:49,672 Speaker 3: couldn't be verified. But many people who lived with her 153 00:09:49,792 --> 00:09:52,712 Speaker 3: and were friends with her, or even her former husband, 154 00:09:53,592 --> 00:09:56,312 Speaker 3: say that she had access to information that no one 155 00:09:56,712 --> 00:10:01,832 Speaker 3: outside of the clothes circles of Russian oligarchs would know. 156 00:10:02,832 --> 00:10:07,712 Speaker 3: So she holds truth. It's such an unbelievable whole cautionary tale, 157 00:10:07,712 --> 00:10:11,631 Speaker 3: but it holds so many truths. Like dating Leonardo DiCaprio. 158 00:10:12,312 --> 00:10:16,712 Speaker 3: She was reported to date Leonardo DiCaprio, and Leo's people 159 00:10:16,832 --> 00:10:20,511 Speaker 3: of course denied that, but then against they were photographed 160 00:10:20,512 --> 00:10:25,032 Speaker 3: together in can in Con Film Festival, so that's undeniable. 161 00:10:25,072 --> 00:10:27,032 Speaker 3: I mean she was in the same room as Leonardo 162 00:10:27,112 --> 00:10:31,832 Speaker 3: DiCaprio and they exchanged glances, and they touched each other 163 00:10:31,912 --> 00:10:34,952 Speaker 3: and they had some physical contact. So many of the 164 00:10:34,992 --> 00:10:38,832 Speaker 3: things that helped her become an influencer and famous and 165 00:10:38,872 --> 00:10:42,272 Speaker 3: on social media were based on truth. If they were 166 00:10:42,312 --> 00:10:48,911 Speaker 3: not altogether truth, they were pretty much based on accurate events. 167 00:10:49,032 --> 00:10:52,432 Speaker 1: Can we talk about her early Instagram life, because in 168 00:10:52,472 --> 00:10:57,032 Speaker 1: the beginning, it was about ensuring people believe that she 169 00:10:57,192 --> 00:11:00,872 Speaker 1: was living that rich and fast lifestyle, that she was 170 00:11:01,032 --> 00:11:04,352 Speaker 1: actually in that crowd and was earning that kind of money. 171 00:11:04,392 --> 00:11:08,792 Speaker 1: And her husband told you about like having to quickly 172 00:11:08,872 --> 00:11:11,472 Speaker 1: take photos of her up against rich people's cars, which 173 00:11:11,552 --> 00:11:14,392 Speaker 1: obviously not hers, like ferraris, et cetera, but like having 174 00:11:14,392 --> 00:11:17,112 Speaker 1: to get the shop really quick before anyone busted them. 175 00:11:17,152 --> 00:11:20,192 Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, she was faking it until she made it. 176 00:11:20,712 --> 00:11:23,391 Speaker 3: She was pretending she was a millionaire in the US, 177 00:11:23,472 --> 00:11:26,152 Speaker 3: which is something that holds a lot of value in Brazil. 178 00:11:26,712 --> 00:11:29,312 Speaker 3: In Brazilia and the whole Latin America would look up 179 00:11:29,352 --> 00:11:35,272 Speaker 3: to the US, especially people who don't have many opportunities here, 180 00:11:35,352 --> 00:11:38,272 Speaker 3: who couldn't go to college and who couldn't get a 181 00:11:38,312 --> 00:11:42,992 Speaker 3: new job. They see moving to America as a potential 182 00:11:43,112 --> 00:11:47,752 Speaker 3: to get rich and to have accessed to a wealth 183 00:11:47,832 --> 00:11:50,952 Speaker 3: they wouldn't have in Latin America. And she was playing 184 00:11:51,072 --> 00:11:54,232 Speaker 3: downright for those people. She was acting as if she 185 00:11:54,312 --> 00:11:57,552 Speaker 3: was shopping Gucci in Prada, and so she was taking 186 00:11:57,592 --> 00:12:00,992 Speaker 3: pictures with Gucci bags over her badge. She was taking 187 00:12:01,112 --> 00:12:03,992 Speaker 3: pictures lying down in the hood of a Ferrari, which 188 00:12:04,112 --> 00:12:06,792 Speaker 3: wasn't hers. She would just go out and street and 189 00:12:07,152 --> 00:12:09,552 Speaker 3: act as if she had a writ she didn't. She 190 00:12:09,592 --> 00:12:12,152 Speaker 3: would go into five star hotels and ask to see 191 00:12:12,192 --> 00:12:14,992 Speaker 3: a room, and then you have several pictures taken inside 192 00:12:15,072 --> 00:12:18,512 Speaker 3: that room and said, yeah, I'm staying here at the Marriott, 193 00:12:18,552 --> 00:12:21,392 Speaker 3: I'm staying here at the Four Seasons Beverly Hills. And 194 00:12:21,432 --> 00:12:26,592 Speaker 3: she actually wasn't. But the fact is she was actually 195 00:12:27,592 --> 00:12:31,232 Speaker 3: getting somewhere in the US. Her projection of image on 196 00:12:31,352 --> 00:12:34,392 Speaker 3: Instagram and social media wasn't completely fath I mean she 197 00:12:34,512 --> 00:12:37,832 Speaker 3: made it to a music video of a fast and 198 00:12:37,912 --> 00:12:42,352 Speaker 3: furious song that was on the franchise of the movies. 199 00:12:42,432 --> 00:12:44,752 Speaker 3: I mean that is big for someone who came from 200 00:12:45,192 --> 00:12:49,272 Speaker 3: South America with nothing and had no parents and no 201 00:12:49,392 --> 00:12:52,632 Speaker 3: relations in the US. I mean, she achieved things, but 202 00:12:53,032 --> 00:12:57,512 Speaker 3: of course she would showcase on the Internet a larger 203 00:12:57,632 --> 00:13:02,352 Speaker 3: version of those things she had achieved, or a misperception 204 00:13:02,472 --> 00:13:05,952 Speaker 3: of those things she had achieved. She would act as 205 00:13:06,032 --> 00:13:09,552 Speaker 3: if she was Angelina Julie or something, whereas she was 206 00:13:10,152 --> 00:13:13,271 Speaker 3: I he will be an actress who was struggling, who 207 00:13:13,352 --> 00:13:15,312 Speaker 3: was hustling a lot in the US. 208 00:13:16,192 --> 00:13:20,232 Speaker 1: So that does evolve over time, that Instagram presence. Do 209 00:13:20,272 --> 00:13:24,312 Speaker 1: we know what started that shift from trying to live 210 00:13:24,432 --> 00:13:27,312 Speaker 1: that life to trying to be more of. 211 00:13:27,272 --> 00:13:31,632 Speaker 3: A guru once again. I think there's some players of 212 00:13:31,712 --> 00:13:35,872 Speaker 3: truth to her change, because she started going to aauasca 213 00:13:36,032 --> 00:13:38,952 Speaker 3: rich wolfs, which is the root of the tree in 214 00:13:39,032 --> 00:13:43,312 Speaker 3: the Amazon in Brazil that has psychedelic effects, and it's 215 00:13:43,312 --> 00:13:46,592 Speaker 3: a religion in Brazil. It's an ancient religion which is 216 00:13:46,712 --> 00:13:51,232 Speaker 3: used by indigenous communities. But then she started hanging out 217 00:13:51,272 --> 00:13:53,592 Speaker 3: with some people in Hollywood who would drink the tree 218 00:13:53,832 --> 00:13:56,792 Speaker 3: the tea, but they were not related to the Brazilian 219 00:13:56,832 --> 00:13:59,872 Speaker 3: tradition at all. It was more of a party, was 220 00:13:59,912 --> 00:14:03,672 Speaker 3: more of a new vibe thing. People close to her 221 00:14:03,712 --> 00:14:06,912 Speaker 3: and even herself told me that she actually believed in 222 00:14:06,952 --> 00:14:09,112 Speaker 3: the tea, and the tea changed her mind, and she 223 00:14:09,232 --> 00:14:12,752 Speaker 3: did become more spiritualized to the point of thinking she 224 00:14:12,832 --> 00:14:15,512 Speaker 3: was able to talk to God saying out loud. She 225 00:14:15,592 --> 00:14:19,272 Speaker 3: was able to have conversations with Jesus and aliens. So 226 00:14:19,432 --> 00:14:23,512 Speaker 3: I do believe there was a fruitful winner change in 227 00:14:23,552 --> 00:14:27,192 Speaker 3: her prior to changing her niche on Instagram. I don't 228 00:14:27,192 --> 00:14:29,712 Speaker 3: think it was just a business plan. Now I'm going 229 00:14:29,792 --> 00:14:32,312 Speaker 3: to serve new age and I'm going to sell yoga 230 00:14:32,352 --> 00:14:35,472 Speaker 3: clothes and I'm going to sell I do tend to believe, 231 00:14:35,712 --> 00:14:38,912 Speaker 3: And we have learned that she actually changed herself. Prior 232 00:14:40,032 --> 00:14:42,192 Speaker 3: to changing her online personace. 233 00:14:43,192 --> 00:14:47,352 Speaker 1: She wrote a book called The Voice, which she did 234 00:14:47,392 --> 00:14:49,992 Speaker 1: do an interview with the Brazilian talk show host about 235 00:14:50,032 --> 00:14:52,592 Speaker 1: and admitted that she'd written the entire thing whilst in 236 00:14:52,592 --> 00:14:55,512 Speaker 1: a trance. But what was this book about and what 237 00:14:55,672 --> 00:14:57,352 Speaker 1: is this voice that she's referring to? 238 00:14:58,392 --> 00:15:02,192 Speaker 3: She says in the book and in the interview with 239 00:15:02,232 --> 00:15:06,272 Speaker 3: Amaldis Junior that she had a connection with a voice 240 00:15:06,672 --> 00:15:10,912 Speaker 3: that could be God eventually could be Aliens. She changes 241 00:15:10,952 --> 00:15:13,752 Speaker 3: her version quite a bit, that would tell her things 242 00:15:13,832 --> 00:15:16,872 Speaker 3: about the future, would predict the future, would let her 243 00:15:17,512 --> 00:15:22,632 Speaker 3: read other people's minds. And she said she drifted apart 244 00:15:22,672 --> 00:15:25,392 Speaker 3: from the voice when she was at an early age, 245 00:15:25,432 --> 00:15:29,392 Speaker 3: but after starting having ayahuasca, she got in touch again 246 00:15:29,432 --> 00:15:33,192 Speaker 3: with a voice. She restated this contact with the voice 247 00:15:33,232 --> 00:15:36,512 Speaker 3: she heard in her mind, which is hard to define 248 00:15:36,512 --> 00:15:39,952 Speaker 3: because she herself is not able to define it very well. 249 00:15:40,432 --> 00:15:42,912 Speaker 3: But I would say it's a voice that sometimes it's 250 00:15:42,992 --> 00:15:47,272 Speaker 3: God and sometimes it's Aliens. It's fishy. It's hard to 251 00:15:47,672 --> 00:15:50,832 Speaker 3: try to make sense out of it because it's very nonsensical, 252 00:15:51,712 --> 00:15:55,152 Speaker 3: but that's what she says in the book. It's a 253 00:15:55,192 --> 00:16:00,072 Speaker 3: memoir book in which she narrates her life with changes 254 00:16:00,312 --> 00:16:04,992 Speaker 3: and facts that are not verifiable and things that are 255 00:16:05,272 --> 00:16:08,992 Speaker 3: bluntly why. But it's her version of her own story. 256 00:16:09,032 --> 00:16:11,032 Speaker 3: The book is her version of her own story. And 257 00:16:11,072 --> 00:16:14,712 Speaker 3: it was really successful in Brazil. It wasn't a bestseller 258 00:16:14,832 --> 00:16:18,352 Speaker 3: or anything, but it did reach many young women who 259 00:16:18,392 --> 00:16:21,952 Speaker 3: looked up at Kat and who admired her, and who 260 00:16:22,032 --> 00:16:26,152 Speaker 3: started believing she was a guru, believing she could help 261 00:16:26,192 --> 00:16:28,272 Speaker 3: them out with her superpowers. 262 00:16:28,712 --> 00:16:30,992 Speaker 1: So through this time, her online following goes from like 263 00:16:31,072 --> 00:16:33,272 Speaker 1: a couple one hundred thousand to more than a million, 264 00:16:33,712 --> 00:16:37,392 Speaker 1: and so she's really starting to influence a significant amount 265 00:16:37,432 --> 00:16:41,472 Speaker 1: of people. And she's utilizing this voice that you described 266 00:16:41,592 --> 00:16:45,592 Speaker 1: to have these one on one consultations with women about 267 00:16:45,912 --> 00:16:49,832 Speaker 1: a myriad of things, their career choices, their families, about 268 00:16:49,872 --> 00:16:53,312 Speaker 1: their relationships. But what are we finding out that she's 269 00:16:53,352 --> 00:16:57,432 Speaker 1: actually telling these women in these consultations, Because you did 270 00:16:57,552 --> 00:17:00,312 Speaker 1: speak to some women who'd had those consultations and who 271 00:17:00,352 --> 00:17:03,632 Speaker 1: had friends who'd had these consultations. What was she doing 272 00:17:03,712 --> 00:17:09,512 Speaker 1: and telling these people to do during those one on ones, she. 273 00:17:09,591 --> 00:17:14,391 Speaker 3: Was pretty much advising young women to be submissive and 274 00:17:14,472 --> 00:17:19,552 Speaker 3: to look for rich men and to act very girl 275 00:17:19,631 --> 00:17:23,591 Speaker 3: like around them, and to pretend to be more frail 276 00:17:23,671 --> 00:17:26,871 Speaker 3: than they actually were, and to drop out of college 277 00:17:27,512 --> 00:17:30,511 Speaker 3: and to try to get pregnant with someone who was 278 00:17:30,591 --> 00:17:35,032 Speaker 3: richer than them. So it was very I would say 279 00:17:35,391 --> 00:17:41,391 Speaker 3: it would Dwelve a little misogyny. They were very misogynistic advices. 280 00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:46,272 Speaker 3: And I've heard from tens of people who had consultations 281 00:17:46,272 --> 00:17:49,911 Speaker 3: with her and who followed her advice. And she would 282 00:17:49,952 --> 00:17:53,392 Speaker 3: even tell people who were in an abusive relationship who 283 00:17:53,431 --> 00:17:57,351 Speaker 3: were better women, who were actually better not to look 284 00:17:57,391 --> 00:18:00,231 Speaker 3: for the police, not to call the police, not to 285 00:18:00,272 --> 00:18:03,591 Speaker 3: break up with the boyfriend, not because that was male energy. 286 00:18:03,671 --> 00:18:08,071 Speaker 3: So it's a little surprising that a self made woman 287 00:18:10,232 --> 00:18:16,032 Speaker 3: would She was almost like a rad Piel in that sense. 288 00:18:18,591 --> 00:18:22,071 Speaker 1: When does it start to change from having these one 289 00:18:22,111 --> 00:18:25,991 Speaker 1: on one consultations and giving women advice like that to 290 00:18:26,071 --> 00:18:29,431 Speaker 1: her kind of flipping to wanting women to come and 291 00:18:29,431 --> 00:18:33,671 Speaker 1: physically join her and live with her because she's moved 292 00:18:33,671 --> 00:18:36,871 Speaker 1: to Texas by this stage with another man, not the 293 00:18:36,952 --> 00:18:40,591 Speaker 1: husband that you referred to earlier. She's divorcing him, but 294 00:18:40,671 --> 00:18:44,272 Speaker 1: then she wants to create essentially a witch's coven. 295 00:18:46,272 --> 00:18:49,111 Speaker 3: It's not quite clear because she wouldn't tell it outright 296 00:18:49,351 --> 00:18:53,351 Speaker 3: the to her clients, to her followers, she would always 297 00:18:53,431 --> 00:18:56,911 Speaker 3: ask for help for the first at least for the 298 00:18:56,952 --> 00:19:00,512 Speaker 3: first couple of them. Referretas always. One of the main 299 00:19:00,591 --> 00:19:04,752 Speaker 3: characters of from Crosscat. The podcast was told that Kat 300 00:19:04,952 --> 00:19:07,632 Speaker 3: was in a bad place and she was having suicidal 301 00:19:07,712 --> 00:19:10,591 Speaker 3: thoughts and she needed someone to be around her, so 302 00:19:10,671 --> 00:19:13,311 Speaker 3: she didn't quite invite desire to live with her to 303 00:19:13,431 --> 00:19:16,151 Speaker 3: work with her. She was like, I'm not feeling good. 304 00:19:16,192 --> 00:19:20,111 Speaker 3: I'm in a bad place. I'm afraid I might hurt myself. 305 00:19:20,472 --> 00:19:23,272 Speaker 3: Can you come here and keep me company? And Kat 306 00:19:24,232 --> 00:19:27,752 Speaker 3: buys her plane ticket to go to Texas and live 307 00:19:27,792 --> 00:19:31,752 Speaker 3: with her, allegedly to help her out through dark times. 308 00:19:32,111 --> 00:19:38,552 Speaker 3: When desire gets there, Kat starts proposing her a business partnership, 309 00:19:39,351 --> 00:19:43,472 Speaker 3: and she says they will have a holistic clinic together. 310 00:19:43,631 --> 00:19:47,032 Speaker 3: They will open up ASPA, a place of well being, 311 00:19:47,032 --> 00:19:49,631 Speaker 3: but they would need the resources for that, so Desiree 312 00:19:50,391 --> 00:19:54,911 Speaker 3: should get that money somehow, and she suggests Desi. Ray 313 00:19:54,992 --> 00:19:58,391 Speaker 3: starts dancing in street clubs and THATSI, Ray starts doing 314 00:19:58,391 --> 00:19:58,871 Speaker 3: sex work. 315 00:19:59,272 --> 00:20:02,111 Speaker 1: She's not the only one, right. There were several women 316 00:20:02,192 --> 00:20:05,792 Speaker 1: who waded up going to Texas with I, all essentially 317 00:20:05,831 --> 00:20:09,912 Speaker 1: forced in domestic labor or sex work whilst living with Can. 318 00:20:11,472 --> 00:20:16,671 Speaker 3: We've got in touch with three women who were able 319 00:20:16,712 --> 00:20:19,031 Speaker 3: to prove they labeled her in Texas, and two of 320 00:20:19,071 --> 00:20:24,591 Speaker 3: them report that they were cohers to dance in strip 321 00:20:24,671 --> 00:20:27,872 Speaker 3: clubs and to do sex work. And the third one 322 00:20:27,911 --> 00:20:32,071 Speaker 3: of them, Jamila, who was a yoga teacher already in 323 00:20:32,111 --> 00:20:33,911 Speaker 3: the US. She was living in the US in the 324 00:20:33,952 --> 00:20:37,232 Speaker 3: Boston region. She moved to Texas because she was about 325 00:20:37,272 --> 00:20:40,871 Speaker 3: to be affected. She was about to become homeless, and 326 00:20:40,911 --> 00:20:44,951 Speaker 3: she moves to Texas to teach yoga to Cat and 327 00:20:45,032 --> 00:20:48,192 Speaker 3: two Cat's followers. She gets there, there's no yoga classes, 328 00:20:48,512 --> 00:20:52,432 Speaker 3: and she has to drive Kat around to be Cat's chauffeur, 329 00:20:52,591 --> 00:20:56,311 Speaker 3: Cat's driver and to clean the house up. But she 330 00:20:56,391 --> 00:21:00,032 Speaker 3: refuses to dance at a strip club, and she refuses 331 00:21:00,111 --> 00:21:02,712 Speaker 3: to do sex work, so she only stays there for 332 00:21:02,752 --> 00:21:05,952 Speaker 3: a couple of weeks and leaves, whereas the other two 333 00:21:07,071 --> 00:21:12,071 Speaker 3: eventually so come eventually agree with Cat's requests and Cat's 334 00:21:12,192 --> 00:21:15,911 Speaker 3: orders and start working in the sex business in the US. 335 00:21:16,351 --> 00:21:19,032 Speaker 1: Do these women ever see any of the money that 336 00:21:19,111 --> 00:21:21,831 Speaker 1: they are generating for Cat? 337 00:21:21,992 --> 00:21:23,951 Speaker 2: Like, how are they surviving? 338 00:21:26,391 --> 00:21:29,351 Speaker 3: I mean they were staying at Cat's house if one 339 00:21:29,391 --> 00:21:33,432 Speaker 3: of them had a room. But it's a classic case 340 00:21:33,472 --> 00:21:36,391 Speaker 3: of human traffickings. She would say she needed to pay 341 00:21:36,431 --> 00:21:40,151 Speaker 3: for the groceries, she needed to pay for the guests 342 00:21:40,192 --> 00:21:42,311 Speaker 3: to drive them to the strip club. She needed to 343 00:21:42,351 --> 00:21:45,512 Speaker 3: pay for all of her basic needs. So Cat toorists 344 00:21:45,512 --> 00:21:49,431 Speaker 3: would keep all the money they would make doing sex 345 00:21:49,472 --> 00:21:52,912 Speaker 3: work or dancing at strip clubs, and she would keep 346 00:21:53,911 --> 00:21:56,672 Speaker 3: keep it pretty much out to herself. So they would 347 00:21:56,752 --> 00:21:59,552 Speaker 3: make thousands of dollars a night and they would not 348 00:21:59,712 --> 00:22:01,831 Speaker 3: see this money. They would come home and they would 349 00:22:01,831 --> 00:22:06,232 Speaker 3: have to hand out each and every dollar bill to Cat, 350 00:22:06,591 --> 00:22:10,391 Speaker 3: who put it away and said she was saving that 351 00:22:10,512 --> 00:22:13,231 Speaker 3: money so she could invest in the business they would 352 00:22:13,272 --> 00:22:17,431 Speaker 3: eventually open up together, which wasn't quite true. She was 353 00:22:18,032 --> 00:22:21,992 Speaker 3: spending that money in her lavish lifestyle. She then would 354 00:22:21,992 --> 00:22:25,112 Speaker 3: show on Instagram to get more followers and get more 355 00:22:25,192 --> 00:22:25,911 Speaker 3: people to live with. 356 00:22:28,071 --> 00:22:31,231 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 357 00:22:31,552 --> 00:22:34,471 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Chicho Feliti, host of the Don't Cross 358 00:22:34,552 --> 00:22:39,231 Speaker 1: Cat podcast. Up next, we uncover what Cat was telling 359 00:22:39,272 --> 00:22:42,631 Speaker 1: women to keep them from leaving once they'd realized that 360 00:22:42,671 --> 00:22:48,232 Speaker 1: they weren't there for the reason she'd claimed. How did 361 00:22:48,311 --> 00:22:52,951 Speaker 1: she convince these women to stay after they realized that 362 00:22:52,952 --> 00:22:55,671 Speaker 1: they're not there for the purposes that Cat has drawn 363 00:22:55,752 --> 00:23:00,191 Speaker 1: them in? As like, cult leaders employ lots of different 364 00:23:00,232 --> 00:23:02,992 Speaker 1: tactics to keep people believing in what they're telling them. 365 00:23:03,071 --> 00:23:05,032 Speaker 1: What was Kat telling them and what was she doing 366 00:23:05,071 --> 00:23:07,071 Speaker 1: to make sure that these women didn't up and leave? 367 00:23:07,831 --> 00:23:11,272 Speaker 3: I do think it's a complicated issue because human trafficking 368 00:23:11,472 --> 00:23:16,192 Speaker 3: and cult leaders employ different forms of coercion, which are 369 00:23:16,232 --> 00:23:20,311 Speaker 3: not specifically locking a door kicking someone at gunpoint. But 370 00:23:20,472 --> 00:23:23,831 Speaker 3: these people who went to live with her, not Jamila Jamila. 371 00:23:23,911 --> 00:23:25,871 Speaker 3: I think that's why Jamila was able to get away 372 00:23:25,911 --> 00:23:28,551 Speaker 3: so quickly, because she wasn't a follower of cats. She 373 00:23:28,631 --> 00:23:31,071 Speaker 3: did not buy the kool aide, She did not believe 374 00:23:31,071 --> 00:23:34,071 Speaker 3: in anything. She thought it was all mumbo jumbo in 375 00:23:34,111 --> 00:23:37,311 Speaker 3: her words. But the other two women who ended up 376 00:23:37,351 --> 00:23:40,672 Speaker 3: living with her in Texas, they really believed in her. 377 00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:44,631 Speaker 3: They had paid her thousands of dollars for counseling, and 378 00:23:44,671 --> 00:23:47,712 Speaker 3: they really saw her as an idol and a friend. 379 00:23:48,071 --> 00:23:52,671 Speaker 3: So at first there's a flattering sense of this person 380 00:23:52,712 --> 00:23:55,232 Speaker 3: I admire so much. I know from the internet she's 381 00:23:55,272 --> 00:23:58,552 Speaker 3: so famous. She actually wants to live with me, so 382 00:23:58,712 --> 00:24:05,471 Speaker 3: that's almost like an awarding feeling. And they also believed, 383 00:24:05,752 --> 00:24:09,432 Speaker 3: or claimed they believe in her superpowers, so they were 384 00:24:09,472 --> 00:24:12,472 Speaker 3: afraid that she would manage them. She would threaten them 385 00:24:12,752 --> 00:24:14,711 Speaker 3: by saying, I can do bad things to you and 386 00:24:14,752 --> 00:24:16,912 Speaker 3: to your family. I can use the voice to make 387 00:24:16,952 --> 00:24:20,111 Speaker 3: your life miserable. And there are recordings of her saying 388 00:24:20,591 --> 00:24:24,111 Speaker 3: she's able to make someone have butt cancer, and that's 389 00:24:24,151 --> 00:24:26,792 Speaker 3: the term she uses, but canser, I'm giving you butt 390 00:24:26,831 --> 00:24:30,591 Speaker 3: cancer with my words. So they actually believed in the 391 00:24:30,631 --> 00:24:35,351 Speaker 3: witchcraft and all of the domestical stuff Kat was selling online. 392 00:24:35,431 --> 00:24:38,071 Speaker 3: So I do think that was part of what led 393 00:24:38,111 --> 00:24:41,032 Speaker 3: them to stay in the US, even though they were 394 00:24:41,151 --> 00:24:44,112 Speaker 3: being clearly abused. They have been traffic. 395 00:24:44,552 --> 00:24:47,911 Speaker 1: This is something that seems to be a thread throughout 396 00:24:48,071 --> 00:24:50,912 Speaker 1: all of this in your podcast and every other thing 397 00:24:50,952 --> 00:24:53,192 Speaker 1: that I've seen about Kat Toros is that people are 398 00:24:53,351 --> 00:24:56,871 Speaker 1: genuinely terrified of her. Like the people who have since 399 00:24:56,911 --> 00:25:00,112 Speaker 1: spoken out after everything happened, a lot of them want 400 00:25:00,151 --> 00:25:02,911 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous because they don't want to be targeted. 401 00:25:04,032 --> 00:25:08,831 Speaker 1: But like, she's one pretty blonde lady with an Instagram account, 402 00:25:08,831 --> 00:25:10,032 Speaker 1: Like what are they so scared of? 403 00:25:11,071 --> 00:25:13,712 Speaker 3: I do think there are two things to fear there. 404 00:25:14,351 --> 00:25:18,831 Speaker 3: The first of them is the mystical powers, which is 405 00:25:18,871 --> 00:25:21,671 Speaker 3: not very rational, and I don't think that we who 406 00:25:21,792 --> 00:25:25,591 Speaker 3: stand from an outside perspective are quite able to understand. 407 00:25:25,911 --> 00:25:31,232 Speaker 3: But there's a very palpable one, which is she was famous, 408 00:25:31,472 --> 00:25:35,391 Speaker 3: and she would dis people on the internet. She dogs Patty, 409 00:25:35,472 --> 00:25:40,071 Speaker 3: who's Desert's best friend, and who starts an investigation to 410 00:25:40,111 --> 00:25:43,591 Speaker 3: try to find her friend. Once Desires disappeared, she actually 411 00:25:43,631 --> 00:25:47,631 Speaker 3: posted pictures of Patty and her kids online and said 412 00:25:47,631 --> 00:25:54,071 Speaker 3: that Patty made her infants, made her small children do 413 00:25:54,232 --> 00:25:57,992 Speaker 3: sex work, and that was seen by hundreds of thousands 414 00:25:57,992 --> 00:26:01,032 Speaker 3: of people. So she actually had the power to ruin 415 00:26:01,111 --> 00:26:04,712 Speaker 3: someone's reputations. She actually and that is not a mystical power, 416 00:26:04,752 --> 00:26:08,591 Speaker 3: that's an actual power. She was able to destroy your 417 00:26:08,631 --> 00:26:12,752 Speaker 3: life if she wanted to. She docked Patty's address, Patty's 418 00:26:12,752 --> 00:26:17,032 Speaker 3: phone number. Patti started receiving hundreds or thousands of calls 419 00:26:17,071 --> 00:26:22,952 Speaker 3: after Catturists published her phone number on Instagram. So there 420 00:26:23,111 --> 00:26:25,552 Speaker 3: was the mystical site to be feared by the ones 421 00:26:25,552 --> 00:26:28,712 Speaker 3: who believed in it, But there was also a potential 422 00:26:28,752 --> 00:26:31,471 Speaker 3: of destruction and influence she held online and that was 423 00:26:31,752 --> 00:26:34,552 Speaker 3: very palpable and very objective. 424 00:26:35,512 --> 00:26:38,911 Speaker 1: You speak to Patty throughout the Don't Crosscat podcast and 425 00:26:38,952 --> 00:26:41,871 Speaker 1: she really put herself on the line to try and 426 00:26:41,952 --> 00:26:45,831 Speaker 1: help her friend get out of the clutches of Kat Torres. 427 00:26:46,911 --> 00:26:49,471 Speaker 2: But Kat really tried. 428 00:26:49,311 --> 00:26:51,431 Speaker 1: Very hard to get rid of Patty, right, So you 429 00:26:51,631 --> 00:26:54,912 Speaker 1: mentioned that she docks her, but also she got desiraate 430 00:26:54,952 --> 00:26:57,831 Speaker 1: to record messages to tell her to go away and 431 00:26:58,032 --> 00:27:01,912 Speaker 1: tell her everything was fine. But was it Patty and 432 00:27:02,111 --> 00:27:05,232 Speaker 1: that group of people who started to investigate things themselves 433 00:27:05,311 --> 00:27:09,432 Speaker 1: because police seemed very reluctant to get involved in this investigation. 434 00:27:10,591 --> 00:27:15,232 Speaker 1: Was it their motivation to expose is that finally did 435 00:27:15,311 --> 00:27:16,631 Speaker 1: bring Kat undone? 436 00:27:17,311 --> 00:27:20,151 Speaker 3: I think that for people who are close to Desiree 437 00:27:20,472 --> 00:27:24,471 Speaker 3: and Letisia, the two young women who actually stayed in 438 00:27:24,512 --> 00:27:26,992 Speaker 3: the house for months in Texas, it was a search 439 00:27:27,111 --> 00:27:31,712 Speaker 3: based on friendship and love and concern. But then when 440 00:27:31,712 --> 00:27:36,071 Speaker 3: it started getting traction on social media, there were so 441 00:27:36,232 --> 00:27:40,311 Speaker 3: many armchair detective zimbers all over the country who started 442 00:27:40,351 --> 00:27:43,391 Speaker 3: investigating this case by their own not making a penny, 443 00:27:43,431 --> 00:27:46,671 Speaker 3: and they were able to help, which is something I 444 00:27:46,712 --> 00:27:50,031 Speaker 3: also find fascinating about the story. It's interesting that of 445 00:27:50,151 --> 00:27:55,111 Speaker 3: armchairs detective as incompetent people who were standing on the 446 00:27:55,151 --> 00:27:59,351 Speaker 3: way of police or the justice system. Know in this case, 447 00:27:59,671 --> 00:28:03,711 Speaker 3: the armchairs detective saved the day, which is something I 448 00:28:03,752 --> 00:28:06,992 Speaker 3: had never heard of. And they were young women, young 449 00:28:07,032 --> 00:28:10,432 Speaker 3: women who many of them followed Cat as well when 450 00:28:10,431 --> 00:28:13,272 Speaker 3: believed in Kat for a while prior to turning against 451 00:28:13,272 --> 00:28:17,191 Speaker 3: her and to taking her to justice. That's why it's 452 00:28:17,272 --> 00:28:19,871 Speaker 3: such a fascinating story to me, in the sense that 453 00:28:20,151 --> 00:28:22,231 Speaker 3: we usually tend to think of the tops as the 454 00:28:22,232 --> 00:28:25,712 Speaker 3: good guys, or the justice or the prosecutors. In this case, 455 00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:29,272 Speaker 3: had not been the armchair detectives in the network of 456 00:28:29,712 --> 00:28:32,711 Speaker 3: fens or hundreds of Brazilian young women who are on 457 00:28:32,792 --> 00:28:35,992 Speaker 3: the internet obsessed with this case, I don't think Atturis 458 00:28:36,071 --> 00:28:37,911 Speaker 3: would have been arrested and afforded. 459 00:28:39,431 --> 00:28:41,272 Speaker 1: So it's the best and the worst of the Internet 460 00:28:41,272 --> 00:28:45,152 Speaker 1: all combined. Social media influencer gone bad. Chair detectives come 461 00:28:45,192 --> 00:28:45,991 Speaker 1: to the rescue. 462 00:28:46,992 --> 00:28:48,152 Speaker 3: Very well, said the. 463 00:28:48,112 --> 00:28:52,872 Speaker 1: FBI does eventually get involved after Kat is exposed and 464 00:28:52,952 --> 00:28:57,192 Speaker 1: she flees. What happens to Kat after she's arrested in Maine. 465 00:28:58,112 --> 00:29:01,552 Speaker 3: First, the American authorities have to check on her on 466 00:29:01,632 --> 00:29:04,512 Speaker 3: her status because she was married to an American man, 467 00:29:04,632 --> 00:29:07,671 Speaker 3: so if she had the right to have a green card, 468 00:29:07,752 --> 00:29:11,232 Speaker 3: she could have been there legally, but she never requested 469 00:29:11,272 --> 00:29:14,951 Speaker 3: a green card, so she was illegal there and that 470 00:29:15,352 --> 00:29:18,792 Speaker 3: based on that, the American authorities decides to deport her 471 00:29:18,832 --> 00:29:21,711 Speaker 3: to Brazil so she can be judged by her crime 472 00:29:21,952 --> 00:29:26,872 Speaker 3: in Brazil. She's not an American citizen and all of 473 00:29:26,872 --> 00:29:30,431 Speaker 3: the victims were Brazilians as well. None of the victims 474 00:29:30,752 --> 00:29:35,031 Speaker 3: who came to public were American. They decide to deport 475 00:29:35,072 --> 00:29:39,632 Speaker 3: her in Brazil and she gets to Minajette Eyes and 476 00:29:39,752 --> 00:29:43,471 Speaker 3: is immediately arrested by the Brazilian federal police since she 477 00:29:43,671 --> 00:29:49,112 Speaker 3: was in the interval wanted list. She was at an 478 00:29:49,152 --> 00:29:52,472 Speaker 3: international wanted list already, so she goes straight to jail 479 00:29:52,671 --> 00:29:54,072 Speaker 3: as soon as she lands in Brazil. 480 00:29:55,192 --> 00:29:59,112 Speaker 1: She is eventually convicted, sentenced to eight years in jail, 481 00:30:00,272 --> 00:30:04,592 Speaker 1: and then she gives that unhinged interview to the Babas. 482 00:30:05,552 --> 00:30:07,752 Speaker 2: From jail, there is no way. 483 00:30:08,032 --> 00:30:10,471 Speaker 4: I sent a message to a person saying, come to 484 00:30:10,552 --> 00:30:13,671 Speaker 4: live with me in America. I'm going to slave you 485 00:30:14,392 --> 00:30:17,272 Speaker 4: or are you going to work for me my house? 486 00:30:17,472 --> 00:30:18,312 Speaker 4: Nobody worked. 487 00:30:18,552 --> 00:30:23,991 Speaker 5: I think the messages that we've seen from absolutely yes. 488 00:30:24,112 --> 00:30:27,951 Speaker 5: What about the bank transfers from Desiree where she's depositing 489 00:30:27,992 --> 00:30:29,992 Speaker 5: money into your account. 490 00:30:29,792 --> 00:30:30,592 Speaker 2: The same thing. 491 00:30:31,671 --> 00:30:34,792 Speaker 1: What do you make of that interview, because she's asked 492 00:30:34,792 --> 00:30:37,232 Speaker 1: about whether she could influence people to do the things 493 00:30:37,232 --> 00:30:41,072 Speaker 1: that they did, and she basically claims she's completely innocent. 494 00:30:42,232 --> 00:30:46,112 Speaker 3: She does, and it's how the trial goes as well. 495 00:30:46,671 --> 00:30:52,792 Speaker 3: During trials, she denies acts that are easily verifiable, and 496 00:30:52,952 --> 00:30:55,711 Speaker 3: she denies having those women over at her house. And 497 00:30:55,752 --> 00:31:01,832 Speaker 3: there are pictures, there are videos, there's I mean they 498 00:31:01,832 --> 00:31:05,352 Speaker 3: weren't there. There's a neighbors saying there's everyone saying there's 499 00:31:05,392 --> 00:31:11,992 Speaker 3: the police find them there, and she lately denies it upright, 500 00:31:12,072 --> 00:31:14,431 Speaker 3: And then she also gets some hints with the judge 501 00:31:14,431 --> 00:31:17,672 Speaker 3: and she starts bossing the judge around, and she starts 502 00:31:18,272 --> 00:31:21,352 Speaker 3: asking the judge to be quiet, something I don't think 503 00:31:21,431 --> 00:31:27,471 Speaker 3: many lawyers would advise on. So I haven't got the 504 00:31:27,592 --> 00:31:30,191 Speaker 3: chance to be face to face with her, but we 505 00:31:30,232 --> 00:31:33,872 Speaker 3: did exchange letters, and she showed another side of her 506 00:31:34,472 --> 00:31:37,751 Speaker 3: in which she denied the crimes, but she admitted to 507 00:31:37,872 --> 00:31:41,911 Speaker 3: having relations with those young women who moved to Texas, 508 00:31:42,671 --> 00:31:47,272 Speaker 3: but also having a big expectation of her followers saving 509 00:31:47,312 --> 00:31:50,752 Speaker 3: her from jail. She actually says, and that's where badim. 510 00:31:51,192 --> 00:31:54,272 Speaker 3: If they know I'm here, they will destroy this prison 511 00:31:54,312 --> 00:31:56,511 Speaker 3: and they will get me out because they love me. 512 00:31:57,472 --> 00:32:01,392 Speaker 3: So there is something there. There's a sense of grandeur 513 00:32:01,472 --> 00:32:06,752 Speaker 3: and there's a sense of importance which might not be 514 00:32:06,832 --> 00:32:09,951 Speaker 3: persons which might not correspond to the reality. 515 00:32:12,152 --> 00:32:15,112 Speaker 1: Next, I asked Tejo what he thought of Kat after 516 00:32:15,152 --> 00:32:17,912 Speaker 1: he got the opportunity to speak with her one on one. 517 00:32:22,472 --> 00:32:25,312 Speaker 1: From your interactions with her, would you say that she 518 00:32:26,952 --> 00:32:30,032 Speaker 1: was corrupted by the power that she managed to achieve 519 00:32:30,112 --> 00:32:34,511 Speaker 1: with her millions of followers, or does she seem genuinely 520 00:32:35,472 --> 00:32:39,712 Speaker 1: mentally unhealthy? Like, what's your take on where she's coming from? 521 00:32:39,752 --> 00:32:43,991 Speaker 3: Now? It's hard as someone who's seen the story from outside, 522 00:32:44,032 --> 00:32:47,312 Speaker 3: it's hard to tell. Well. What I can say that 523 00:32:47,352 --> 00:32:53,552 Speaker 3: she's been assessed by psychiatrists, she's been medicated, she's been diagnosed, 524 00:32:53,632 --> 00:32:58,592 Speaker 3: she's been deemed healthy enough to serve time in jail, 525 00:32:58,671 --> 00:33:02,272 Speaker 3: not to serve time in a psychiatric ward. And I 526 00:33:02,312 --> 00:33:06,231 Speaker 3: do think there's something deeper there in which her behavior 527 00:33:07,632 --> 00:33:10,072 Speaker 3: is a reprodution of what life has made to her. 528 00:33:10,712 --> 00:33:15,471 Speaker 3: She was advising these women to act well exactly like 529 00:33:15,632 --> 00:33:18,112 Speaker 3: she had acted all her life and had achieved the 530 00:33:18,112 --> 00:33:21,991 Speaker 3: things she had achieved by acting that way. By acting 531 00:33:22,112 --> 00:33:26,512 Speaker 3: submits that by going out with older, richer men who 532 00:33:26,512 --> 00:33:29,951 Speaker 3: would provide you, by getting pregnant of someone who was 533 00:33:30,072 --> 00:33:33,352 Speaker 3: very powerful, I do think there's a level of trauma there, 534 00:33:33,752 --> 00:33:36,911 Speaker 3: and there's a level of someone who had very little 535 00:33:37,032 --> 00:33:41,031 Speaker 3: chance in life and made it. One of her friends 536 00:33:41,072 --> 00:33:44,312 Speaker 3: says that she was honestly trying to help this She 537 00:33:44,392 --> 00:33:48,912 Speaker 3: believed Catories was actually trying to help this women by 538 00:33:48,992 --> 00:33:53,031 Speaker 3: giving her her roadmap, the roadmap of her life, And 539 00:33:53,072 --> 00:33:55,752 Speaker 3: that makes a lot of sense to me. I don't 540 00:33:55,792 --> 00:34:01,072 Speaker 3: think because she it wasn't a big scam. She didn't 541 00:34:01,952 --> 00:34:05,472 Speaker 3: got rich with as she We're not talking about millions 542 00:34:05,472 --> 00:34:07,671 Speaker 3: of dollars. We're talking about a lot of money. But 543 00:34:08,552 --> 00:34:11,392 Speaker 3: had she married someone who was a millionaire or a 544 00:34:11,392 --> 00:34:13,911 Speaker 3: billionaire in the US and she had the opportunity to 545 00:34:14,112 --> 00:34:19,471 Speaker 3: she dated a big movie director in Los Angeles, who 546 00:34:20,232 --> 00:34:23,951 Speaker 3: was a millionaire by hundreds of millions. She could have 547 00:34:24,031 --> 00:34:28,951 Speaker 3: made more money acting in a different way than trafficking 548 00:34:28,991 --> 00:34:31,792 Speaker 3: her followers. So I do think there is something there 549 00:34:31,832 --> 00:34:36,832 Speaker 3: which we might not never reach on her psyche is 550 00:34:36,872 --> 00:34:39,832 Speaker 3: why has she done this? She could have made money 551 00:34:39,872 --> 00:34:41,631 Speaker 3: if it was for the money itself, She could have 552 00:34:41,712 --> 00:34:45,872 Speaker 3: made money in different ways. Why would she choose to 553 00:34:46,352 --> 00:34:50,392 Speaker 3: traffic her followers to the US and put herself in risk? 554 00:34:50,511 --> 00:34:53,872 Speaker 3: And she knew she was committing a crime where she 555 00:34:53,911 --> 00:34:57,392 Speaker 3: could have made money in many other different ways which 556 00:34:57,392 --> 00:35:00,551 Speaker 3: were not necessarily getting diego. So I do think there's 557 00:35:00,592 --> 00:35:03,272 Speaker 3: something there that speaks to her so which is hard 558 00:35:03,312 --> 00:35:04,112 Speaker 3: for us to define. 559 00:35:05,471 --> 00:35:08,272 Speaker 2: There's definitely less in this for all of us. 560 00:35:08,352 --> 00:35:11,471 Speaker 1: I mean, you personally have reflected on the fact that 561 00:35:11,511 --> 00:35:14,232 Speaker 1: you are actually an influencer yourself, and you have to 562 00:35:14,471 --> 00:35:18,191 Speaker 1: take into account the power that being an influencer holds. 563 00:35:18,792 --> 00:35:21,832 Speaker 1: But do you think there's a lesson in us maybe 564 00:35:21,872 --> 00:35:25,352 Speaker 1: having to stop and remember that a lot of what 565 00:35:25,392 --> 00:35:29,312 Speaker 1: we see on social media platforms is essentially a lie, 566 00:35:30,592 --> 00:35:31,152 Speaker 1: a lie. 567 00:35:31,872 --> 00:35:34,511 Speaker 3: There's an example in the Portuguese version of the podcast, 568 00:35:34,511 --> 00:35:36,951 Speaker 3: which didn't make the cut to the US version. One 569 00:35:36,951 --> 00:35:39,272 Speaker 3: of our friends is when you go to a beach, 570 00:35:39,471 --> 00:35:41,672 Speaker 3: do you take a picture with the crowd and the 571 00:35:41,672 --> 00:35:44,111 Speaker 3: crowded beach, or do you try to go to a 572 00:35:44,352 --> 00:35:49,632 Speaker 3: specific point of the beach where in this right angle 573 00:35:49,832 --> 00:35:52,392 Speaker 3: with the right light, it would look like you're alone 574 00:35:52,431 --> 00:35:54,591 Speaker 3: in the beach. And we do it all the time. 575 00:35:54,752 --> 00:35:58,431 Speaker 3: Everyone's lying all the time on social media. I lie 576 00:35:58,511 --> 00:36:01,112 Speaker 3: all the time on social media, and it was somewhat 577 00:36:02,192 --> 00:36:05,312 Speaker 3: difficult for me to realize that I was also part 578 00:36:05,352 --> 00:36:09,192 Speaker 3: of it, mistigating this case. I mean, if I have 579 00:36:10,392 --> 00:36:14,712 Speaker 3: an advertising today for let's say a pop company, a 580 00:36:15,392 --> 00:36:20,192 Speaker 3: soda company, and I've got bad man migrainar had a 581 00:36:20,272 --> 00:36:22,551 Speaker 3: huge fight with my husband and I'm feeling like shit, 582 00:36:22,911 --> 00:36:25,591 Speaker 3: I'll smile nonethe less and I'll say, this is a 583 00:36:25,712 --> 00:36:32,312 Speaker 3: delicious soda, you should have it, and it's alive. It's 584 00:36:32,312 --> 00:36:35,832 Speaker 3: an up, it's a job. I think we should first 585 00:36:35,872 --> 00:36:40,192 Speaker 3: of all, always be aware that the Internet does not 586 00:36:40,272 --> 00:36:43,752 Speaker 3: correspond to the reality this. People with hundreds of thousands 587 00:36:43,872 --> 00:36:46,312 Speaker 3: or millions or tens of millions of followers are not 588 00:36:46,712 --> 00:36:51,952 Speaker 3: your friends, and that they're they're working, which is legit, 589 00:36:52,112 --> 00:36:55,471 Speaker 3: which is okay. It's a job like anything else. We 590 00:36:55,551 --> 00:36:58,991 Speaker 3: do not expect Drew Barrymore or merrow Street to be 591 00:36:59,031 --> 00:37:02,832 Speaker 3: your friend. They're there work, even though we admired them 592 00:37:02,872 --> 00:37:05,231 Speaker 3: and we feel close to them. But there's a sense 593 00:37:05,272 --> 00:37:09,911 Speaker 3: of proximity which exists in social media, which is very 594 00:37:09,951 --> 00:37:14,232 Speaker 3: the siffing. People who are influencers tend to act as 595 00:37:14,312 --> 00:37:17,872 Speaker 3: if everyone who's following them as their friends is their 596 00:37:17,911 --> 00:37:20,392 Speaker 3: friend or has access to their personal life, and it's 597 00:37:20,471 --> 00:37:24,151 Speaker 3: part of their enter rush. You're not, you're not. It's 598 00:37:24,192 --> 00:37:27,471 Speaker 3: just maybe we should see them as we see narrow 599 00:37:27,511 --> 00:37:31,071 Speaker 3: free and that would be a healthier decision. And I 600 00:37:31,112 --> 00:37:34,951 Speaker 3: guess we would give less away our agency. WI would 601 00:37:34,991 --> 00:37:37,711 Speaker 3: give less away our time and our money for people 602 00:37:37,792 --> 00:37:40,312 Speaker 3: who are acting as if they are friends. They're not 603 00:37:40,431 --> 00:37:40,992 Speaker 3: our calls. 604 00:37:41,072 --> 00:37:45,551 Speaker 1: They're not to know what happens to Kattaras when she 605 00:37:45,592 --> 00:37:48,471 Speaker 1: finishes her sentence, like will she be allowed to go 606 00:37:48,551 --> 00:37:49,752 Speaker 1: back and be an influencer? 607 00:37:49,872 --> 00:37:52,431 Speaker 2: Was she allowed to have another Instagram account? 608 00:37:52,431 --> 00:37:52,511 Speaker 3: Like? 609 00:37:52,792 --> 00:37:54,591 Speaker 2: Is she bard from doing any of that? Once she 610 00:37:54,632 --> 00:37:56,792 Speaker 2: gets out, she will. 611 00:37:56,632 --> 00:38:00,112 Speaker 3: Come back, and she'll come back stronger, especially knowing Brazilian 612 00:38:00,232 --> 00:38:03,952 Speaker 3: social media landscape like I do. People will be so 613 00:38:04,192 --> 00:38:07,992 Speaker 3: interested on her she will make it to Big Brother Brazil, 614 00:38:08,192 --> 00:38:10,432 Speaker 3: which is our biggest TV show. I know Big Brother 615 00:38:10,551 --> 00:38:15,031 Speaker 3: is kind of small in some countries, and it's huge here. 616 00:38:15,031 --> 00:38:17,951 Speaker 3: It's our biggest television show. And she doesn't make it 617 00:38:17,991 --> 00:38:21,071 Speaker 3: to Big Brothers. She will make it to which is 618 00:38:21,112 --> 00:38:24,672 Speaker 3: the second one. I think it's more probable because they 619 00:38:24,752 --> 00:38:29,152 Speaker 3: do like people who have been involved in the problems 620 00:38:29,872 --> 00:38:34,352 Speaker 3: and controversy in their cast. But she will come back 621 00:38:34,392 --> 00:38:39,152 Speaker 3: stronger because that's what the Internet lives on the Internet 622 00:38:39,272 --> 00:38:44,991 Speaker 3: rereads on trouble, breads on novelty, breeds on beef, and 623 00:38:45,112 --> 00:38:47,511 Speaker 3: she brings the beef. But she says she wants to 624 00:38:47,511 --> 00:38:51,552 Speaker 3: be a country singer. According to her onward, the Internet 625 00:38:51,632 --> 00:38:53,552 Speaker 3: is for idiots. I want to be a country singer. 626 00:38:53,712 --> 00:38:57,072 Speaker 3: So that's the official version. But I'm doing a little 627 00:38:57,152 --> 00:39:01,392 Speaker 3: projection here. I'm doing a little I think she will 628 00:39:01,431 --> 00:39:05,792 Speaker 3: come back stronger in Brazil specifically, it has happened. I mean, 629 00:39:05,911 --> 00:39:10,151 Speaker 3: we I've created menda stars or one a young woman 630 00:39:10,152 --> 00:39:15,792 Speaker 3: who killed her parents became one of our biggest stars 631 00:39:15,951 --> 00:39:18,832 Speaker 3: on socially wow or killing her. 632 00:39:18,752 --> 00:39:22,832 Speaker 1: Pan watch this space. I guess when she hops out 633 00:39:22,832 --> 00:39:26,032 Speaker 1: of jail. Keep an eye on Instagram or the country 634 00:39:26,112 --> 00:39:29,151 Speaker 1: music charts whichever way she decides to go. Chito, thank 635 00:39:29,192 --> 00:39:31,872 Speaker 1: you so much for sharing your insights with us on 636 00:39:31,951 --> 00:39:34,711 Speaker 1: Kat Toys today. We really appreciate it and you're giving 637 00:39:34,752 --> 00:39:35,431 Speaker 1: us some of your time. 638 00:39:35,511 --> 00:39:37,151 Speaker 2: Thank you all. 639 00:39:37,392 --> 00:39:41,471 Speaker 1: Michael Answer, Thank you to Chito for helping us tell 640 00:39:41,511 --> 00:39:45,032 Speaker 1: this story. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Claire 641 00:39:45,112 --> 00:39:48,591 Speaker 1: Murphy and produced by Charlie Blackman, with audio design by 642 00:39:48,672 --> 00:39:52,152 Speaker 1: Jacob Brown. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be 643 00:39:52,192 --> 00:39:53,152 Speaker 1: back next week with 644 00:39:53,272 --> 00:39:54,632 Speaker 2: Another True Crime Conversation