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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: Hence why I feel so grateful to be precisely where

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Speaker 1: I am now, with this little miracle who was clearly,

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Speaker 1: spite all the odds, absolutely destined to be. I certainly

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Speaker 1: hope the majority of those demons that plagued me earlier

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Speaker 1: on are put to rest.

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Speaker 2: Waiting for a pregnancy test result can bring on a

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Speaker 2: whirlwind of emotions excitement, anxiety, anticipation, dread. But for Madeline West,

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Speaker 2: seeing a positive test at forty seven wasn't just surprising,

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Speaker 2: it was completely and utterly shocking, because at first she

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Speaker 2: thought that she was in perimenopause. She even asked her

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Speaker 2: doctor if a positive pregnancy test could be a symptom,

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Speaker 2: but no, she was in fact expecting her seventh child,

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Speaker 2: and when we spoke, she was just two weeks away

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Speaker 2: from giving birth. In this conversation, Madeleine is the epitome

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Speaker 2: of no filter. Unflinchingly honest and deeply reflective. She shares

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Speaker 2: how she's really feeling, how the media expects her to

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Speaker 2: feel about the poetically named geriatric pregnancy and why she's

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Speaker 2: choosing to embrace this unexpected twist in her story. But

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Speaker 2: more than that, Madeline West opens up about something far

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Speaker 2: more profound, her experience of childhood's sexual abuse, a secret

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Speaker 2: she had hidden from the world and from herself for

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Speaker 2: almost forty years. She speaks about the moment she knew

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Speaker 2: she was ready to confront her abuser, and the valiance

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Speaker 2: that it took to bring him to justice. Now, as

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Speaker 2: she prepares to welcome another baby, Madeleine describes her life

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Speaker 2: as a jigsaw puzzle, one that's been scattered, rebuilt, and

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Speaker 2: reshaped over time, and after years of healing and self discovery,

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Speaker 2: she finally feels like the last piece is falling into place.

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Speaker 2: But before we get there, I just want to let

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Speaker 2: you know that this conversation through necessity does include very

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Speaker 2: candid discussion of the abuse that Madeleine survived. So please

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Speaker 2: this and mindfully, and here is Madeline West, Madeline West,

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Speaker 2: beautiful of face, extraordinary of soul. We will get to

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Speaker 2: that later. Welcome to no filth.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, on the basis of that welcome, I

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Speaker 1: wish I was in the room with you. I've even

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Speaker 1: brought I've brought snacks, with me, because you just can't

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Speaker 1: come between a pregnant woman and a snack. So I

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Speaker 1: wish I was in the room.

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Speaker 2: Whist Kate, Well, so you are pregnant, the duff well,

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Speaker 2: and truly you really are barn in the oven all

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Speaker 2: of that. This needs a drum roll. Seventh child, you

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Speaker 2: are forty five.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm forty seven.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're forty seven. It's are you laughing?

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Speaker 1: Because it's just getting worse. O.

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Speaker 2: B Well, it's just I actually, I actually love it.

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Speaker 2: I love it. I'm happy it's not me. I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny to say that, Kate. All my girlfriends

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Speaker 1: are saying the same thing. They're like, I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to hold a baby, just don't want to carry one

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Speaker 1: in one undercarriage, which is right now.

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Speaker 2: All right. So I've just made a mistake that I

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Speaker 2: imagine is happening a lot. The first thing when someone's pregnant. Congratulations, congratulations, Madeline, congratulations.

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Speaker 2: But because it's so extraordinary, is that getting a little

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Speaker 2: bit lost in the mix, in the mix of the astonished,

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Speaker 2: or that the first reaction is always shocked.

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Speaker 1: My first reaction was shocked, and disbelief, so I certainly

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Speaker 1: can't judge anyone else for having a similar reaction to it.

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Speaker 1: But what I will say, and what I have discovered,

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Speaker 1: is that I am far from alone. Statistically, teen pregnancies

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Speaker 1: are on a sharp decline. Pregnancies in their forties are

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Speaker 1: on the rise, and particularly over forty four, which is

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Speaker 1: quite surprising. It's quadrupled in the last twenty years. How

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Speaker 1: many women in their latter forties are now going on

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Speaker 1: to have babies, So I understand that there is it's

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Speaker 1: certainly not helped by the geriatric pregnancy label that you

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Speaker 1: get slapped with from thirty five. I'm like, should I

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Speaker 1: should I go babies fun thingson buy a pram or

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Speaker 1: should I go and get a zimmer Frame. I'm not

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Speaker 1: quite sure.

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Speaker 2: They should do doubles in mission.

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Speaker 1: I think they should just little package, our geriatric package.

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Speaker 1: But what I have discovered, and I was very slow

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Speaker 1: to I really didn't want to initially air where I

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Speaker 1: was and what was happening in my life. I've become

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Speaker 1: increasingly private as I've gotten older, and and You've moved

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Speaker 1: to Bayn and I moved to Byron, and it was

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Speaker 1: my hand was kind of forced because I was informed

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Speaker 1: by a media agency that there was awareness that I

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Speaker 1: was pregnant. And that came about not because I'd rocked

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Speaker 1: up to Melbourne Fashion Week or something in alycrate Frock.

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Speaker 1: It was because I was actually presenting at Parliament and

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Speaker 1: trying to push through legislation to amp up protections around

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Speaker 1: child's safety, and I was just spotted by a journalist

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Speaker 1: who of course went back to the office told everyone.

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Speaker 1: They told everyone they knew. I found out that I

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Speaker 1: was being followed by peraps trying to get that first photo.

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Speaker 1: So I thought, well, I'm gonna, as much as I

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Speaker 1: don't want to, I'm going to speak out about this

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Speaker 1: on my terms. And the most wonderful flow on effect

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Speaker 1: of that was I had over a thousand responses from

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Speaker 1: other women who had or were having babies in their

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Speaker 1: forties saying I thought I was the only one. I

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Speaker 1: thought I was the only one who was going to

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Speaker 1: rock up to play group and everyone would think I

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Speaker 1: was grandma. I thought I was the only one who

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Speaker 1: at first day of school i'd be mingling with mothers

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Speaker 1: and fathers who were half my age. But quite the

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Speaker 1: reverse is true, so it's really I'm actually quite gratified

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Speaker 1: to have illuminated or shown a spotlight on this particular

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Speaker 1: group of men and women who are delving into parenting

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Speaker 1: later in life and thought that they were alone.

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Speaker 2: And also I find it kind of hopeful because the

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Speaker 2: one thing that we know about nature is that nature

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Speaker 2: can be cruel, particularly when it comes to issues of fertility.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it most definitely can.

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Speaker 2: And you thought that you were perimenopausal, and you thought

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Speaker 2: that's why you were having these strange cycles.

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Speaker 1: See as soon as like that, oh hang on, my

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Speaker 1: monthly's disappeared. Oh wow, I must have just hot footed

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Speaker 1: it right through the perimenopause phase and I've gone straight

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Speaker 1: into menopause. But then I got a couple of other

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Speaker 1: symptoms that I recognized but did not quite fit with

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Speaker 1: the narrative around menopause, which thankfully is finally getting so

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Speaker 1: much traction in the media and just amongst society itself.

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Speaker 1: We're finally having meaningful conversations about perimenopause and menopause. But

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Speaker 1: my symptoms didn't quite correlate with any of that. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't getting hot flushes. I was certainly rageful, But I'm

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Speaker 1: a mum of six, and of course I'm rageful. When

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Speaker 1: am I not rageful? I did the little I just thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, let's just let's just get this out

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Speaker 1: of the way, and let's just do a little weir

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Speaker 1: on a stick, and two lines popped up, And I'll

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Speaker 1: be honest with you, Kate. My first thought was, maybe

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Speaker 1: this is a symptom of many pause that no one's

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Speaker 1: heard about you. Maybe because all your hormones are going

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Speaker 1: all over them, maybe this is what happens. So I

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Speaker 1: had a little check up with the doctor and he said, no,

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Speaker 1: you are most definitely geriatrically up the dust and here

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Speaker 1: we are.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So because you now live in Byron, so this

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Speaker 2: would not have been the same doctor that you had

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Speaker 2: through your other six pregnancies.

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Speaker 1: Or are you are the tweens that I came went

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Speaker 1: and saw had a room full of dream catches and

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Speaker 1: healing crystals and well, I'm decrying me a good hard staging.

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Speaker 2: No, but you have to explain yourself to a new ishtock.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you have to go through everything. And and I am

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Speaker 1: someone who prides myself on keeping really healthy both mentally

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Speaker 1: and physically. That's become a priority for me, particularly in

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Speaker 1: the last five years because I've gone through quite a

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Speaker 1: few things, so that became an absolute priority to shore

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Speaker 1: up my physical and mental health, and that is what

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Speaker 1: I have been doing. So I'm not a frequent visitor

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Speaker 1: to a doctor's office, but I did.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: I found I have got a lovely GP who went

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Speaker 1: and saw and his eyebrows went through the roof when

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Speaker 1: we got the positive result as well. But again he

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Speaker 1: reiterated that as much as this is inverted comma's higher risk,

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Speaker 1: it's also not uncommon. And that's what I discovered when

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Speaker 1: I opened up finally and starting having conversations with my

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Speaker 1: core beautiful group of friends, that many of them had

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Speaker 1: found myselves themselves in my shoes and had either decided

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Speaker 1: to proceed or not proceed. But this was not completely

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Speaker 1: I wasn't an anomaly.

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Speaker 2: Well, I also had babies in my fings and I

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Speaker 2: also had caesareans, and I know when I had to

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Speaker 2: go back to the doctor the fourth time that I

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Speaker 2: was accidentally pregnant. I love that these are two grown

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Speaker 2: up we have Actually it's a great title for a book, accidentally,

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Speaker 2: But they were like, they don't like to do caesareans

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Speaker 2: past three cesareans. I was going for four you're presumably

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Speaker 2: going to have. Yes, so I won't let you go natural, now,

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Speaker 2: will that?

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Speaker 1: No? No? No, those have an American Emergency Caesar because I'm

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Speaker 1: quite small and my babies are generally quite big, so.

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Speaker 2: Bigger than bigger than you would like exactly.

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Speaker 1: I do have a really lovely doctor who is allowing

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Speaker 1: me to go into labor. Yes, which is lovely because

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Speaker 1: it means that some of those issues that little ones

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Speaker 1: face when they are born by a cesarean section. That

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Speaker 1: could be some issues with lungs and issues with the

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Speaker 1: milk coming in. Sorry, too much information, but we're going

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Speaker 1: down that path. So let's deep dive deep obviated.

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Speaker 2: It's no filter. Oh, that's right, said, it's no filtered.

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Speaker 1: I've got a wonderful obstetrician who will let me go

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Speaker 1: into labor and then we'll pop in and zip a

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Speaker 1: little one out.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So when you've seen your doctor, yep, you get

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Speaker 2: the news that you are pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: How long ago was this? By the way, how deep

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Speaker 2: are you in?

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Speaker 1: I've got about two and a half weeks al yes,

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Speaker 1: And this is officially the last thing I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do that requires my brain to function. I've just sat

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Speaker 1: like I drew a line in the sand. I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have my chat to Kate and I'm

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Speaker 1: doing nothing else.

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Speaker 2: So when you get that news, who is the first

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Speaker 2: person that you take?

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Speaker 1: Um?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 2: And where is mask?

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Speaker 1: So Mum's down in Victoria, so she's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a distance and she's actually going to be my

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Speaker 1: birth partner, in which I love. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: very strong, almost tribal connection. Yes, and this is I'm

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Speaker 1: going on a tight segue, So please hold that question

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Speaker 1: in your head, Cake, because I know I'll go off

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Speaker 1: on a tangent and I'll completely forget, forget what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. But I've just read the most amazing book

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Speaker 1: called Eve by Cat Bohannon. I'd recommend it to anyone

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Speaker 1: to read, and it explains how the female body has

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Speaker 1: driven evolution for the last two hundred million years, and

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Speaker 1: it gives the most precise scientific explanation for why we

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Speaker 1: enter menopause. We, apart from killer whales, are the only

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Speaker 1: creatures on the planet that experience menopause, and men certainly

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Speaker 1: don't experience it, so it's specific to the female body.

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Speaker 1: And it was a precise choice that we biologically, genealogically

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Speaker 1: made in our history of evolution as we branched off

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Speaker 1: from some of our primate predecessors to experience menopause so

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Speaker 1: that women could lead.

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Speaker 2: And in part the wisdom is this week because I

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Speaker 2: have heard this, but I didn't know that was the genes.

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Speaker 1: And it's absolutely brilliant, and it's been been quantified by

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Speaker 1: numerous scientific studies that demonstrate that, like killer whales, we

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Speaker 1: are the ones who say, this is what you do

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Speaker 1: in a drought, this is what you do in a famine.

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Speaker 1: You need to blanch those vegetables to get the toxins out.

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Speaker 1: And mothers are designed to birth their grandchildren. They've got

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Speaker 1: this wealth of knowledge. And Western society is very good

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Speaker 1: at dismissing how elderly as yes, somehow a little bit

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Speaker 1: decrepit us.

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Speaker 2: Actually we're out there in the.

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Speaker 1: Field now, just let them go and graze. But the

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Speaker 1: sheer wealth of instinctive knowledge that our older generations of

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Speaker 1: women have is mind boggling. So it feels very symbolic

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Speaker 1: and very right that it is my mum there who

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Speaker 1: will bring this new little one.

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Speaker 2: What did she say? What did she say when you

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Speaker 2: told her you were on the phone, she dissuming, Oh.

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Speaker 1: And this is a very frequent response I've gotten it's

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Speaker 1: just going to be so hard.

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Speaker 2: And I paused, so she forgot to say congratulations exactly.

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Speaker 1: And then of course it warms up to congratulations, and

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Speaker 1: over the weeks and the days and the weeks and

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Speaker 1: the months that follows, it becomes overwhelmingly positive the response.

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Speaker 1: But her first concern is it's going to be so

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Speaker 1: hard because you've already got so much going on. And

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Speaker 1: I stepped back for a moment and went, well, I

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Speaker 1: I think as I've grown older and hopefully wiser, I've

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Speaker 1: come to choose my heart because life is hard. Everything

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Speaker 1: about life is hard. We've got all got so many

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Speaker 1: pressures on our shoulders. And yes, there's so many things

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Speaker 1: I want to do with my life, but I don't

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Speaker 1: for a moment believe the presence of this precious little

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Speaker 1: miracle in my life is going to stop me doing

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Speaker 1: what I want to do. If anything, it's going to

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Speaker 1: push me harder to do what I want to do,

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Speaker 1: to make the world a better place, a safer place.

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Speaker 2: Coming up after the break, I asked Madeline how she

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Speaker 2: processed the news of her pregnancy at forty seven years old,

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Speaker 2: and whether she considered all the possible options stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Was there a moment where you thought maybe I won't

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Speaker 2: proceed with this.

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Speaker 1: No, No, because initially I thought it was menopause. I

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Speaker 1: found out a little bit later that most do.

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Speaker 2: And my.

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Speaker 1: Body knows this is number seven precisely where that little

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Speaker 1: cluster of cells is at every stage and from I

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Speaker 1: am all for everyone having everyone and everyone having choice

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Speaker 1: and facilities to exercise that choice. But for me, this

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Speaker 1: was a little This was a little human being who

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Speaker 1: was going to change the world from the moment that

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Speaker 1: I found out that I was pregnant, and that has

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Speaker 1: not changed.

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Speaker 2: You know, you said life is hard, and I know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people say that as epithets. You know,

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Speaker 2: politicians love to talk about people doing it tough, as

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Speaker 2: though they've had nothing to do with the fact that

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Speaker 2: people do at that class.

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Speaker 1: But do you know what I mean, I can't quite

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Speaker 1: join the dots.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. But when you say life is hard,

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Speaker 2: you have a much more acute understanding of that than

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Speaker 2: most people.

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Speaker 1: I do now because I can, I can actually look

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Speaker 1: back retrospectively as some of the things that I've experienced which,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, I for most of my life wasn't

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Speaker 1: prepared to do. I spent most of my life putting

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Speaker 1: masks on, pretending to be anyone other than myself because

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Speaker 1: I so despised myself, and that self that I despised

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Speaker 1: originated from a tiny little girl who had horrible things

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Speaker 1: happened to her that she absolutely was not to blame for.

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Speaker 2: That little girl was Melanie that was used.

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Speaker 1: See there you go. I even changed my name to

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Speaker 1: run as hard and fast away from her as I could.

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Speaker 1: So so much of my life has been wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in ignoring the bad things that happened. But and I

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Speaker 1: can speak from experience now because I've done all of

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Speaker 1: my training to become something of a trauma expert and

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Speaker 1: exploitation expert. So I work very closely with children. I

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Speaker 1: work in schools and educate them how to be safe

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Speaker 1: online just in life in general. And I also work

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Speaker 1: with a lot of historical victims who want to just

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Speaker 1: be empowered enough to say the words that this happened

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Speaker 1: to me and it was not my fault, and that

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Speaker 1: might result in them pursuing criminal or some kind of

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Speaker 1: civil remediation. But now I can spot all the red flags,

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Speaker 1: and I can spot all the triggers when someone has

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Speaker 1: had that experience. I spent my life trying to keep

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Speaker 1: that under wraps, which is why acting was a perfect profession.

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Speaker 2: Donning the mantle of somebody else. I'm someone else because

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Speaker 2: you couldn't bear to be yourself, Sackler.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't bear to be Melanie because she'd been told

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Speaker 1: for so long that she was to blame for everything

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Speaker 1: that had happened to her.

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Speaker 2: Now to get our listeners up to speed, who may

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Speaker 2: not know this, and this is just an event of

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Speaker 2: such cataclysmic proportions to happen in anybody's life that I

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Speaker 2: can't believe this is not a story known to everybody.

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Speaker 2: I was certainly not familiar as familiar with it. We've

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Speaker 2: kind of had been background noised.

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Speaker 1: But that's I think you've described it so well that

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Speaker 1: this is a cataclysmic event, yet it's experienced by one

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Speaker 1: in three girls and one in five boys, and that's

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Speaker 1: just the reported cases. So just to qualify for anyone

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Speaker 1: who's listening and not familiar with my backstory, and I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad to be at a point in my life

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Speaker 1: where I'm stepping away from being the poster child of

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Speaker 1: trauma and achieving something beautiful and wonderful in the aftermath.

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Speaker 1: I was the victim of a pedophile from the ages

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Speaker 1: of four to eleven, and it was quite horrific what

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Speaker 1: he did. It was your neighbor, Yes, it was my

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Speaker 1: next door neighbor. And I was not alone. I was

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Speaker 1: not the only victim. And after many years of working

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Speaker 1: with therapists, with the police, with the federal police, in

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Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty four, we put him away in

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Speaker 1: prison for fifteen years. So he's now accountable.

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Speaker 2: Peter Vincent wife his name was Yes, So in your

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Speaker 2: little seemingly idyllic town of Voudeine that you grew up in,

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Speaker 2: this charming, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, little town, almost village, tiny, little bucolic, beautiful village

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Speaker 1: type town. And he chose the precisely perfect location, which

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Speaker 1: was an area peopled predominantly by low socioeconomic young families

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Speaker 1: with little kids. And his house was the most magnificent

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Speaker 1: house in the neighborhood with all the bits and pieces

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Speaker 1: that would attract children, and his wife was a frequent

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Speaker 1: babysitter for the neighborhood, so children were drawn to that

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Speaker 1: area and he was precisely the epitome of the rock

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Speaker 1: spider who, hidden in plain SIGHTE was able to access.

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Speaker 2: Young children trusted and adored by the name.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know so many and so many people have said,

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Speaker 1: how did they not know? How did they not know?

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Speaker 1: And that's the cliche. Hidden in plain site, he was

354
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Speaker 1: right there, and no one would dream. This wonderful, generous

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Speaker 1: person who held fabulous parties and invited everyone in the

356
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Speaker 1: neighborhood who'd pop over, and he was a plumber by trade,

357
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Speaker 1: would fix your block toilet without batting an eye, was

358
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Speaker 1: using public, that very positive public facade to hide the

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Speaker 1: most horrific and as she said before, heinous, cataclysmic crime.

360
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Speaker 1: You can imagine, and it still bewilders me. But the reason,

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Speaker 1: as you said, you know, you can't believe that people

362
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Speaker 1: haven't heard about it, is precisely because people don't talk

363
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Speaker 1: about it. Our society fosters a conspiracy of silence around this, and.

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Speaker 2: A lot of that is motivated by fear.

365
00:22:50,565 --> 00:22:55,765
Speaker 1: Absolutely and also shame that we don't attach, we really

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Speaker 1: don't appropriately attach a victim or survivor label to those

367
00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:05,725
Speaker 1: who've experienced that they are seen as deficit, as broken

368
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Speaker 1: and as somehow complicit. There's still some degree of question,

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Speaker 1: what we're wearing, what we're you're doing. Well, you must

370
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Speaker 1: have brought it on, You must have led him on.

371
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Speaker 1: How the hell does a five year old lead on

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Speaker 1: a forty year old man?

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Speaker 2: How?

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Speaker 1: And yet that seems to be the narrative we attached

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Speaker 1: to this crime. And that is why, to this day,

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Speaker 1: this crime which has one of the highest ratios of

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Speaker 1: victim per capita in our society, the highest ratio of

378
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Speaker 1: recidivus behavior by the perpetrators, yet the lowest sentencing, and

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Speaker 1: the majority of cases a perpetrator might get a slap

380
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Speaker 1: on a wrist or a community service order. Yet commit

381
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Speaker 1: tax fraud and you'll get ten years in prison.

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Speaker 2: What was the point in your life at which you,

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Speaker 2: in the service of that little girl that you carried

384
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Speaker 2: around with you, that you decided to go to the

385
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Speaker 2: police and say, this is what happened to me. What

386
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Speaker 2: is the process for you?

387
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Speaker 1: You reach a point in your life where the white

388
00:24:13,365 --> 00:24:18,045
Speaker 1: noise of what happened to you is so loud you

389
00:24:18,085 --> 00:24:24,285
Speaker 1: can't function anymore, where memories start to resurface and you

390
00:24:24,325 --> 00:24:28,045
Speaker 1: can't tuck them away or push them down anymore. And

391
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Speaker 1: I was on the cusp of a separation and questioning

392
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Speaker 1: so many things in my life. And what tip me

393
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Speaker 1: over was learning that he had grandchildren. And that was

394
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Speaker 1: when I went it stops with me, because I don't

395
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Speaker 1: care what anyone says. If you've experienced this, it will

396
00:24:50,245 --> 00:24:52,325
Speaker 1: manifest in your life in some way.

397
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Speaker 2: Of course, it.

398
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Speaker 1: Might be that you become an alcoholic, you have drug addiction,

399
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Speaker 1: you might dabble in petty crime. You might not be

400
00:24:58,965 --> 00:25:01,645
Speaker 1: able to function socially. You might not be able to

401
00:25:01,685 --> 00:25:04,325
Speaker 1: hold down a relationship or hold down a lot a job.

402
00:25:04,805 --> 00:25:10,125
Speaker 1: All these social what we call ills generally have. Even

403
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Speaker 1: the President, the high ratio of eating disorder sufferers have

404
00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:20,045
Speaker 1: a history of child abuse.

405
00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:22,765
Speaker 2: Was that how it manifested with you?

406
00:25:22,965 --> 00:25:28,125
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah, with horrific anorexia from what age? I started

407
00:25:28,325 --> 00:25:33,285
Speaker 1: exercising obsessively when I was twelve. Funnily enough, not long

408
00:25:33,325 --> 00:25:36,525
Speaker 1: after the abuse stopped, and that just got worse and worse,

409
00:25:36,565 --> 00:25:40,205
Speaker 1: and it led to lengthy hospitalizations when I was in

410
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Speaker 1: my late teens. At one point I'd been hospitalized and

411
00:25:44,045 --> 00:25:47,525
Speaker 1: I weighed less than thirty kilos, and I just that

412
00:25:47,685 --> 00:25:52,125
Speaker 1: was the and I'd really call out for anyone who

413
00:25:52,125 --> 00:25:56,325
Speaker 1: has experienced this particular illness that I esdated even to

414
00:25:56,365 --> 00:25:58,765
Speaker 1: call it an illness, because it's often a manifestation of

415
00:25:58,805 --> 00:26:04,245
Speaker 1: something deeper and darker. It's not about weight, it's too much,

416
00:26:04,925 --> 00:26:08,085
Speaker 1: it's too little to correlate it with images that we

417
00:26:08,125 --> 00:26:11,765
Speaker 1: see in popular magazine and in the media. It's about control.

418
00:26:12,885 --> 00:26:18,325
Speaker 1: That that little girl had had her body violated so vilely,

419
00:26:19,365 --> 00:26:24,205
Speaker 1: had no agency over her experience. So the one thing

420
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Speaker 1: I could control was what I put in my mouth.

421
00:26:27,525 --> 00:26:29,405
Speaker 1: And when I didn't put anything in my mouth, I

422
00:26:29,445 --> 00:26:31,885
Speaker 1: felt like I was in control. When I'd managed to

423
00:26:31,925 --> 00:26:35,605
Speaker 1: stave off the hunger pangs long enough that I didn't

424
00:26:35,645 --> 00:26:39,245
Speaker 1: feel hungry anymore, I was in control. And then you

425
00:26:39,325 --> 00:26:42,685
Speaker 1: reach a point when your be and my slips below sixteen,

426
00:26:43,285 --> 00:26:45,805
Speaker 1: where full blown body it's morphia kicks in where you

427
00:26:45,885 --> 00:26:49,085
Speaker 1: don't even see yourself as you are. You could literally

428
00:26:49,085 --> 00:26:51,885
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and your skin is hanging off

429
00:26:51,925 --> 00:26:55,285
Speaker 1: you because there's all your muscles of atrophied and there's

430
00:26:55,365 --> 00:26:59,245
Speaker 1: nobody fat, and you do think that you're obese.

431
00:26:59,525 --> 00:27:05,845
Speaker 2: You were so clearly broken. You flagged it with your

432
00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:11,805
Speaker 2: parents at the time, because he was your neighbor was

433
00:27:11,805 --> 00:27:17,565
Speaker 2: not only raping you, he was raping other children in

434
00:27:17,605 --> 00:27:20,685
Speaker 2: the neighborhood, including one of your friends who was older

435
00:27:20,725 --> 00:27:24,285
Speaker 2: than yous, who was babysitting for his.

436
00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:32,205
Speaker 1: Childrens at a quite a young age and thus extremely exposed.

437
00:27:33,565 --> 00:27:36,685
Speaker 1: And I know it's very easy to cast a judgment

438
00:27:36,765 --> 00:27:40,645
Speaker 1: that how would these other parents let this happen? How

439
00:27:40,685 --> 00:27:43,765
Speaker 1: did they not know? And it might seem like a

440
00:27:43,765 --> 00:27:48,525
Speaker 1: broad jump, but in the same way that we frequently

441
00:27:48,565 --> 00:27:51,085
Speaker 1: don't know what our kids are looking at on their

442
00:27:51,085 --> 00:27:55,685
Speaker 1: devices and what messages they're sending, and the conversations they're having,

443
00:27:56,165 --> 00:28:00,085
Speaker 1: and the cyber bullying that they might be experiencing. That's

444
00:28:00,085 --> 00:28:03,005
Speaker 1: why it's been such an apt move that I now

445
00:28:03,045 --> 00:28:05,445
Speaker 1: work in this sphere where educate kids about how to

446
00:28:05,485 --> 00:28:08,645
Speaker 1: be safe online and what then educate their parents and

447
00:28:08,685 --> 00:28:11,485
Speaker 1: teaches about what the red flags are and what to

448
00:28:11,565 --> 00:28:14,565
Speaker 1: avoid and how best to manage it. Because we're all busy,

449
00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:17,365
Speaker 1: we're all doing the best that we can. And for

450
00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:21,245
Speaker 1: young parents in that neighborhood to have someone with a

451
00:28:21,285 --> 00:28:25,725
Speaker 1: lovely home with a professional career offer to help with

452
00:28:25,885 --> 00:28:29,525
Speaker 1: your kids for free was a gift.

453
00:28:30,685 --> 00:28:33,725
Speaker 2: And that's the dream. I mean, that is the saying

454
00:28:33,845 --> 00:28:35,165
Speaker 2: it takes a valy.

455
00:28:34,805 --> 00:28:38,005
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and this was purely an extension of that. Let's

456
00:28:38,005 --> 00:28:43,725
Speaker 1: take advantage of this village, and yeah, this is why

457
00:28:43,805 --> 00:28:47,445
Speaker 1: it's such a social ill. It seems the only way

458
00:28:47,525 --> 00:28:50,445
Speaker 1: to combat it is for us to all be terribly

459
00:28:50,445 --> 00:28:53,645
Speaker 1: cynical and everyone, you know, keeping it suspicious of everyone

460
00:28:53,685 --> 00:28:56,805
Speaker 1: around us. We don't want that, but we need to

461
00:28:56,845 --> 00:29:00,205
Speaker 1: bring broader recognition as to why this happens. How does

462
00:29:00,205 --> 00:29:05,325
Speaker 1: it create in someone an aherent, abhorrent urge to engage

463
00:29:05,325 --> 00:29:09,925
Speaker 1: with the child sexually, to break and break them, to

464
00:29:10,045 --> 00:29:12,245
Speaker 1: manipulate them and take advantage of them.

465
00:29:13,685 --> 00:29:21,005
Speaker 2: There's so many impediments to somebody coming forward, particularly with

466
00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:27,285
Speaker 2: historical offenses like this. There was like a thirty year yeah,

467
00:29:27,485 --> 00:29:34,445
Speaker 2: thirty or forty years in between, as you've already alluded to,

468
00:29:34,725 --> 00:29:40,165
Speaker 2: the shame, the atrophied nature of yourself, the wanting to

469
00:29:40,885 --> 00:29:44,525
Speaker 2: also not immerse yourself back into the world of that darkness.

470
00:29:44,605 --> 00:29:48,405
Speaker 1: I had to and that was a really hard five

471
00:29:48,525 --> 00:29:53,045
Speaker 1: years because once you knock that scab off, because it's

472
00:29:53,085 --> 00:29:56,685
Speaker 1: always a festering wound, Once you knock that scab off

473
00:29:56,725 --> 00:30:02,565
Speaker 1: and you dig in there to that long, festering abscess

474
00:30:02,605 --> 00:30:06,205
Speaker 1: of trauma. Sorry, it's not a very attractive metaphor, but

475
00:30:06,245 --> 00:30:11,045
Speaker 1: it's true. It initially gets harder because you have to

476
00:30:11,085 --> 00:30:17,005
Speaker 1: allow yourself to fully remember what happened, and our brain

477
00:30:17,205 --> 00:30:21,245
Speaker 1: sets up so many guardposts to protect us from that.

478
00:30:21,845 --> 00:30:26,845
Speaker 1: And once you're back in there, it's we're talking about

479
00:30:27,165 --> 00:30:31,125
Speaker 1: crying in your wardrobe, in a puddle of tears on

480
00:30:31,165 --> 00:30:36,565
Speaker 1: a regular basis territory, that's where you go. But once

481
00:30:36,645 --> 00:30:41,365
Speaker 1: you hit that rock bottom, you're acutely aware that as

482
00:30:41,565 --> 00:30:43,685
Speaker 1: hard as this is, and this is what I told

483
00:30:43,685 --> 00:30:47,565
Speaker 1: myself every morning, my mantra while I was meditating, this

484
00:30:47,885 --> 00:30:51,645
Speaker 1: too shall pass, It can only get better. Once I

485
00:30:51,685 --> 00:30:54,405
Speaker 1: was actually able to say the words with complete detail,

486
00:30:54,445 --> 00:30:57,405
Speaker 1: describing the room, the curtains, the time of day, it

487
00:30:57,525 --> 00:31:00,925
Speaker 1: was so specific what my body had held on to

488
00:31:01,445 --> 00:31:07,245
Speaker 1: for so long. It was like the ultimate detox okate.

489
00:31:07,325 --> 00:31:11,645
Speaker 1: It was like a spiritual detox that it just out.

490
00:31:12,005 --> 00:31:15,085
Speaker 2: It came like an exorcism.

491
00:31:14,565 --> 00:31:17,245
Speaker 1: Like an exorcism, and that would only be matched by

492
00:31:18,445 --> 00:31:22,285
Speaker 1: So when you go through these particular cases, and they

493
00:31:22,325 --> 00:31:23,725
Speaker 1: take a long time to get to court, and the

494
00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:29,405
Speaker 1: court process is onerous, but at the time of just

495
00:31:29,445 --> 00:31:34,045
Speaker 1: before sentencing, victims have an opportunity to speak not just

496
00:31:34,085 --> 00:31:36,565
Speaker 1: to the judge, but to the perpetrator who is in

497
00:31:36,605 --> 00:31:41,205
Speaker 1: the dock and express the impact this it's called a

498
00:31:41,285 --> 00:31:44,485
Speaker 1: victim's impact statement, and express the impact that this person

499
00:31:45,165 --> 00:31:50,205
Speaker 1: had on their life. And when it was my time

500
00:31:50,245 --> 00:31:52,485
Speaker 1: to get I elected that yes, I'd like to get

501
00:31:52,565 --> 00:31:56,525
Speaker 1: up and say my peace. But that moment of being

502
00:31:56,565 --> 00:32:00,005
Speaker 1: able to stand up in court and the request is

503
00:32:00,005 --> 00:32:02,965
Speaker 1: that you face the magistrate. And I said to the magistrate,

504
00:32:03,045 --> 00:32:06,165
Speaker 1: your honor, I appreciate that what I have to say

505
00:32:06,205 --> 00:32:09,885
Speaker 1: here is addressed to you, but really it's addressed to him.

506
00:32:10,245 --> 00:32:13,325
Speaker 1: And I turned around and I eyeballed him, and I

507
00:32:13,445 --> 00:32:16,765
Speaker 1: demanded that he look at me, said you look at me.

508
00:32:16,965 --> 00:32:20,645
Speaker 1: Don't you dare look away? You look at me? And

509
00:32:20,685 --> 00:32:23,245
Speaker 1: then I spelled out the imp Did he look at it?

510
00:32:23,925 --> 00:32:27,165
Speaker 2: He did, and he was a man in his seventies.

511
00:32:26,845 --> 00:32:31,805
Speaker 1: In his seventies. And I then spelled out everything he

512
00:32:31,845 --> 00:32:35,325
Speaker 1: had done and laid out for him in the court.

513
00:32:35,445 --> 00:32:39,205
Speaker 1: The jig saw puzzle of my life and how that one?

514
00:32:39,405 --> 00:32:42,085
Speaker 1: That to say one? But it was over numerous years,

515
00:32:42,525 --> 00:32:47,485
Speaker 1: his actions, the consequences for me as a mother, as

516
00:32:47,525 --> 00:32:50,605
Speaker 1: a partner, as a professional, just as a living, breathing

517
00:32:50,725 --> 00:32:54,045
Speaker 1: human being had for the rest of my life. And

518
00:32:54,325 --> 00:33:00,285
Speaker 1: that was the ultimate detox that for me was allowing

519
00:33:00,325 --> 00:33:04,725
Speaker 1: me to shrug off the cross of blame and shame

520
00:33:04,965 --> 00:33:09,125
Speaker 1: and depression and self hatred that I'd carried my entire

521
00:33:09,125 --> 00:33:11,845
Speaker 1: life life for the first time and I literally said,

522
00:33:11,845 --> 00:33:16,725
Speaker 1: I'm dropping this backpack of shame here and you can

523
00:33:16,765 --> 00:33:18,965
Speaker 1: take it back to yourself with you, where I hope

524
00:33:18,965 --> 00:33:24,125
Speaker 1: you rot and die. So harsh words but apt and

525
00:33:24,245 --> 00:33:31,485
Speaker 1: necessary and the ultimate sense of justice. And it's probably hey, yes,

526
00:33:31,525 --> 00:33:33,645
Speaker 1: I'm up here and Byron, and it sounds terribly woo woo,

527
00:33:33,725 --> 00:33:38,445
Speaker 1: but I could literally feel little Melanie by my side,

528
00:33:38,645 --> 00:33:43,965
Speaker 1: and I could feel thousands of women and thousands of

529
00:33:44,045 --> 00:33:48,085
Speaker 1: men who've never had an opportunity to say the words

530
00:33:48,325 --> 00:33:52,525
Speaker 1: to discharge that trauma. I could feel them behind me

531
00:33:53,245 --> 00:33:56,965
Speaker 1: in that moment, and I'll never forget it. It was

532
00:33:57,045 --> 00:33:57,765
Speaker 1: life changing.

533
00:33:58,685 --> 00:34:04,805
Speaker 2: You said in your victim impact statement that you ran

534
00:34:04,845 --> 00:34:08,885
Speaker 2: away from that little girl as far and fast as

535
00:34:08,885 --> 00:34:15,885
Speaker 2: you could and to explain the true impact to him.

536
00:34:16,285 --> 00:34:19,885
Speaker 2: That was your intention, not just on that tiny girl,

537
00:34:20,005 --> 00:34:21,845
Speaker 2: but on the broken woman.

538
00:34:22,165 --> 00:34:25,285
Speaker 1: Yes, that was you when you just you're like a

539
00:34:25,325 --> 00:34:28,245
Speaker 1: Babushka dole and the three internal dolls are being pulled

540
00:34:28,245 --> 00:34:33,045
Speaker 1: out and thrown away, that you're you're fragile. I feel

541
00:34:33,045 --> 00:34:35,325
Speaker 1: like I've lived so much of my life like a

542
00:34:35,365 --> 00:34:39,925
Speaker 1: glass vase that's been shattered to tiny shards but held

543
00:34:39,965 --> 00:34:44,725
Speaker 1: together with nice, glossy, sticky tape. So we're gonna look

544
00:34:44,725 --> 00:34:46,525
Speaker 1: at it and go it looks like a vase, and

545
00:34:46,565 --> 00:34:49,645
Speaker 1: it's shaped like a vase, and it's a beautiful vis

546
00:34:50,285 --> 00:34:53,445
Speaker 1: must be a vavas. But you try to hold any

547
00:34:53,485 --> 00:34:56,165
Speaker 1: substance or any amount of water for any amount of time,

548
00:34:56,205 --> 00:34:58,565
Speaker 1: and it's just going to leak out. And how could

549
00:34:58,565 --> 00:35:02,565
Speaker 1: it be any other way when a crucial component of myself,

550
00:35:03,445 --> 00:35:07,765
Speaker 1: Melanie who I am, was not there. And so from

551
00:35:07,805 --> 00:35:10,365
Speaker 1: that point of leaving the caught that day, I made

552
00:35:10,365 --> 00:35:13,765
Speaker 1: a determination that I will live the life that I

553
00:35:13,925 --> 00:35:18,805
Speaker 1: was destined to live, one of wholeness, one of love,

554
00:35:19,685 --> 00:35:25,405
Speaker 1: one of kindness, understanding, empathy, and appreciation. And I'm not

555
00:35:25,405 --> 00:35:31,085
Speaker 1: going to guild the lily. It's hard. I don't necessarily

556
00:35:31,125 --> 00:35:35,005
Speaker 1: believe in healing in inverted commons. I believe that you

557
00:35:35,125 --> 00:35:39,445
Speaker 1: learn to tolerate your trauma. I believe you learn to

558
00:35:39,805 --> 00:35:43,605
Speaker 1: navigate your life scars an awareness of yes, with an

559
00:35:43,645 --> 00:35:47,045
Speaker 1: awareness of the scar tissue, and you treat it kindly

560
00:35:47,645 --> 00:35:49,845
Speaker 1: so you don't extend your muscles too hard. If it's

561
00:35:49,885 --> 00:35:52,445
Speaker 1: going to pull and tug, you just very gently give

562
00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:54,285
Speaker 1: yourself a little massage and maybe put a bit of

563
00:35:54,285 --> 00:35:56,885
Speaker 1: balm on it or something like that. But it's about

564
00:35:57,925 --> 00:36:04,205
Speaker 1: for me, being well is making a monumental effort to

565
00:36:05,765 --> 00:36:09,125
Speaker 1: dip my cup into the well of things that I

566
00:36:09,165 --> 00:36:12,365
Speaker 1: do love about me and that I am so grateful

567
00:36:12,725 --> 00:36:13,805
Speaker 1: for having in my life.

568
00:36:18,965 --> 00:36:22,285
Speaker 2: That's not all of my conversation with Madeline West after

569
00:36:22,325 --> 00:36:26,445
Speaker 2: this short break, she tells me how it felt when

570
00:36:26,485 --> 00:36:28,045
Speaker 2: she confronted her abuser.

571
00:36:34,845 --> 00:36:37,845
Speaker 1: What are the things that you love about you that

572
00:36:37,925 --> 00:36:42,765
Speaker 1: I've been blessed with my beautiful children. I love that

573
00:36:42,925 --> 00:36:49,045
Speaker 1: I have a capacity not just for compassion and sympathy,

574
00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:53,685
Speaker 1: but actual empathy that comes from a shared learn experience.

575
00:36:53,925 --> 00:36:56,365
Speaker 1: I do love that. I do love that I have

576
00:36:56,405 --> 00:36:59,165
Speaker 1: a propensity to look on the bright side of life.

577
00:37:00,085 --> 00:37:02,805
Speaker 1: I love that I am a hard worker. Now I

578
00:37:02,885 --> 00:37:05,605
Speaker 1: know that my hard work has been its genesis has

579
00:37:05,645 --> 00:37:07,645
Speaker 1: been got to run, got to run, got to run,

580
00:37:07,685 --> 00:37:09,205
Speaker 1: got to run? So I stop I'm going to feel

581
00:37:09,365 --> 00:37:12,525
Speaker 1: I don't want to feel that. I love that I

582
00:37:12,565 --> 00:37:16,965
Speaker 1: am curious about people in the world and always have been,

583
00:37:18,125 --> 00:37:24,525
Speaker 1: and I do love that throughout my life I've done

584
00:37:24,565 --> 00:37:25,885
Speaker 1: my best to polish a turd.

585
00:37:26,445 --> 00:37:29,085
Speaker 2: I really no matter what the.

586
00:37:33,325 --> 00:37:39,165
Speaker 1: I'm the toilet freshener. Now that I don't for a

587
00:37:39,245 --> 00:37:44,125
Speaker 1: minute reflect on my life with regret. That the things

588
00:37:44,165 --> 00:37:47,405
Speaker 1: that have regretted is pointless. It's like guilt. Guilt is

589
00:37:47,485 --> 00:37:50,165
Speaker 1: just it's just a perfluous It's almost a luxury that

590
00:37:50,165 --> 00:37:51,805
Speaker 1: none of us can afford. You've just got to get

591
00:37:51,805 --> 00:37:54,805
Speaker 1: on with it. And I do believe that I've managed

592
00:37:54,845 --> 00:37:58,725
Speaker 1: to get on with it that yes I haven't been perfect,

593
00:37:58,845 --> 00:38:03,205
Speaker 1: Yes that I've hurt people along the way, certainly not

594
00:38:03,245 --> 00:38:06,805
Speaker 1: with an intention of hurting them, but it's simply not

595
00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:10,805
Speaker 1: really knowing how to best function in most situations. And

596
00:38:10,885 --> 00:38:15,165
Speaker 1: hence why I feel so grateful to be precisely where

597
00:38:15,205 --> 00:38:20,525
Speaker 1: I am now, with this little miracle who was clearly,

598
00:38:21,405 --> 00:38:24,365
Speaker 1: spite all the odds, absolutely destined to be.

599
00:38:25,685 --> 00:38:29,565
Speaker 2: And also, this is the first of your children who

600
00:38:29,605 --> 00:38:30,525
Speaker 2: will come into the.

601
00:38:30,445 --> 00:38:35,885
Speaker 3: World, into this new world, yes, into your new world

602
00:38:36,565 --> 00:38:40,525
Speaker 3: in which you've divested yourself of that cloak of shame

603
00:38:40,645 --> 00:38:42,005
Speaker 3: and heaviness and fear.

604
00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:45,085
Speaker 2: Although obviously, like you said, it's not just a you know,

605
00:38:45,365 --> 00:38:48,045
Speaker 2: it's not a clear excision of those.

606
00:38:48,085 --> 00:38:52,485
Speaker 1: Lines but definitely blurred. But I certainly hope the majority

607
00:38:52,525 --> 00:38:55,485
Speaker 1: of those demons that plagued me earlier on are put

608
00:38:55,565 --> 00:38:56,005
Speaker 1: to rest.

609
00:38:56,725 --> 00:38:58,805
Speaker 2: Can I tell you something that I love about you?

610
00:38:58,925 --> 00:39:00,045
Speaker 1: Oh, I'd love to hear that.

611
00:39:01,085 --> 00:39:05,845
Speaker 2: Obviously there's been your creative gift to the nation. But

612
00:39:07,805 --> 00:39:14,845
Speaker 2: the most extraordinary act of courage and a confluence of

613
00:39:15,525 --> 00:39:22,365
Speaker 2: your acting skills and your desire for justice and you're

614
00:39:22,445 --> 00:39:26,885
Speaker 2: advocating for that little girl who couldn't advocate for herself,

615
00:39:27,525 --> 00:39:30,405
Speaker 2: was when you went to the police and you told

616
00:39:30,445 --> 00:39:34,925
Speaker 2: them was this in twenty twenty eighteen. And I don't

617
00:39:34,965 --> 00:39:37,685
Speaker 2: know how this came about, but you met this incredible.

618
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:40,125
Speaker 1: Detective Scott Tuttenham, my hero to this.

619
00:39:40,285 --> 00:39:43,525
Speaker 2: Day, and you are a hero to him because of

620
00:39:43,565 --> 00:39:47,085
Speaker 2: what you did. And this will be the subject of

621
00:39:47,125 --> 00:39:50,605
Speaker 2: a movie. Think about who's going to play you. Because

622
00:39:51,245 --> 00:39:54,485
Speaker 2: what you did was to make the case against this

623
00:39:54,725 --> 00:40:00,245
Speaker 2: predator stand up in court. They said that they needed

624
00:40:00,405 --> 00:40:05,285
Speaker 2: his confirmation of what he had done. You put on

625
00:40:05,325 --> 00:40:11,845
Speaker 2: a wire. You went back to that town, to that house.

626
00:40:13,165 --> 00:40:16,645
Speaker 2: He knocked on the door, who opened the door.

627
00:40:16,405 --> 00:40:23,565
Speaker 1: To him and his wife? And we'd purposefully come very

628
00:40:23,605 --> 00:40:28,085
Speaker 1: early in the morning on a public holiday, knowing that

629
00:40:28,085 --> 00:40:32,485
Speaker 1: that gave us the greater chance of actually nabbing him

630
00:40:32,925 --> 00:40:38,445
Speaker 1: or him being home. And he and his wife opened

631
00:40:38,485 --> 00:40:42,925
Speaker 1: the door. And I had done a lot of It's

632
00:40:42,925 --> 00:40:47,125
Speaker 1: almost like researching a character, Kate. I'd done so much

633
00:40:47,405 --> 00:40:53,765
Speaker 1: research on the profile and the psychology of predators that

634
00:40:53,845 --> 00:40:59,245
Speaker 1: I knew, in the first glimpse, the first few seconds

635
00:40:59,245 --> 00:41:04,405
Speaker 1: of confrontation, a criminal will show their truth. And when

636
00:41:04,445 --> 00:41:10,325
Speaker 1: I opened that door, his wife, of course shocked. They

637
00:41:10,365 --> 00:41:17,245
Speaker 1: were both in their dressing gowns, went straight and said, oh, oh, oh, oh, Mel,

638
00:41:17,605 --> 00:41:19,605
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And he was behind her

639
00:41:19,645 --> 00:41:23,725
Speaker 1: shoulder and his face dropped. And I knew in that moment,

640
00:41:24,205 --> 00:41:28,365
Speaker 1: I've got you. You've been waiting, You've been waiting so

641
00:41:28,645 --> 00:41:31,605
Speaker 1: long for one of us to rock up on your doorstep,

642
00:41:32,565 --> 00:41:37,765
Speaker 1: and here I am. And they invited me in, and

643
00:41:37,805 --> 00:41:38,645
Speaker 1: the rest is history.

644
00:41:39,725 --> 00:41:41,565
Speaker 2: Did she go, the wife go to make a cup

645
00:41:41,605 --> 00:41:43,285
Speaker 2: of tea? Did you geek?

646
00:41:43,605 --> 00:41:45,045
Speaker 1: They took me and brought me into the kitchen, said

647
00:41:45,085 --> 00:41:48,645
Speaker 1: let's have a cup of tea. And she then said, look,

648
00:41:48,645 --> 00:41:50,965
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get changed into you know, I'm in

649
00:41:51,005 --> 00:41:52,685
Speaker 1: my dressing hown. I just get changed. I said sure,

650
00:41:53,685 --> 00:41:56,405
Speaker 1: and so Peter kept teas back to me and he

651
00:41:56,525 --> 00:42:02,365
Speaker 1: was making tea. I didn't say a word, and I

652
00:42:02,405 --> 00:42:04,885
Speaker 1: just said, look, Peter, it's really you that I've come

653
00:42:04,925 --> 00:42:10,245
Speaker 1: to see because you've played such an important, almost paternal

654
00:42:10,325 --> 00:42:16,525
Speaker 1: role in my life. And I knew from the research

655
00:42:16,605 --> 00:42:20,325
Speaker 1: that i'd done, if you approach a predator from a

656
00:42:20,325 --> 00:42:25,285
Speaker 1: place of understanding, that they're much more likely to open up.

657
00:42:26,285 --> 00:42:31,845
Speaker 1: And I said to him, I just wanted to take

658
00:42:31,885 --> 00:42:35,765
Speaker 1: this time to talk to you because we had such

659
00:42:36,005 --> 00:42:41,125
Speaker 1: a special relationship and I understand that people are sometimes

660
00:42:41,685 --> 00:42:46,245
Speaker 1: driven by needs and wants that not everyone understands, but

661
00:42:46,405 --> 00:42:51,565
Speaker 1: we understand. And I just I felt like I needed

662
00:42:51,605 --> 00:42:55,165
Speaker 1: to talk to you because some of what happened between

663
00:42:55,285 --> 00:43:00,645
Speaker 1: us has impacted me in a really big way in

664
00:43:00,685 --> 00:43:04,005
Speaker 1: my life, and I just feel like I need to

665
00:43:04,045 --> 00:43:06,645
Speaker 1: hear it acknowledged. I just like I feel like I need,

666
00:43:07,605 --> 00:43:11,205
Speaker 1: I need us to talk about that. And he said, oh,

667
00:43:11,325 --> 00:43:14,805
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know what you mean. And I said, well,

668
00:43:14,845 --> 00:43:18,445
Speaker 1: when you. You touched me, Peter when you rate me.

669
00:43:19,925 --> 00:43:22,965
Speaker 1: And at that point she walked in and he was

670
00:43:23,005 --> 00:43:25,605
Speaker 1: just standing there with a cup and the tea bag

671
00:43:26,125 --> 00:43:33,685
Speaker 1: kind of frozen, and she said straight away, what's going on,

672
00:43:34,165 --> 00:43:38,205
Speaker 1: What's what's wrong? And I said, well, I just I

673
00:43:38,245 --> 00:43:41,245
Speaker 1: was just talking to Peter because well he used to

674
00:43:41,965 --> 00:43:44,405
Speaker 1: he used to touch me, Leslie, used to rate me.

675
00:43:45,565 --> 00:43:51,405
Speaker 1: And she kind of closed her card again and she went, oh,

676
00:43:51,445 --> 00:43:53,845
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I can't imagine him doing anything like that,

677
00:43:53,925 --> 00:43:56,365
Speaker 1: and then grabbed my hands and said, but thank you

678
00:43:56,485 --> 00:43:59,645
Speaker 1: so much for coming and talking to us. And we

679
00:43:59,685 --> 00:44:01,925
Speaker 1: then sat down at the table and talked for forty

680
00:44:01,925 --> 00:44:06,605
Speaker 1: five minutes, small small talk, but also I kept coming

681
00:44:06,645 --> 00:44:12,525
Speaker 1: back to and he's react was very much, Oh, I

682
00:44:13,605 --> 00:44:17,045
Speaker 1: can't remember. I might I must have blanked out, But

683
00:44:17,085 --> 00:44:21,885
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that I did that to you. And

684
00:44:21,925 --> 00:44:23,925
Speaker 1: so we just kept that was like on a reel.

685
00:44:24,085 --> 00:44:29,005
Speaker 1: It just kept rolling on, this conversation and his desperation.

686
00:44:29,245 --> 00:44:32,525
Speaker 1: He was in tears at times. I'm so sorry that

687
00:44:32,565 --> 00:44:35,445
Speaker 1: you felt that way, and thank you. Kept thanking me

688
00:44:36,085 --> 00:44:40,765
Speaker 1: for coming and talking to him, which I imagine was

689
00:44:40,805 --> 00:44:44,965
Speaker 1: his way of discharging the fear that I would go

690
00:44:45,005 --> 00:44:47,125
Speaker 1: and speak to someone else. I wrap it up with

691
00:44:47,205 --> 00:44:49,925
Speaker 1: a nice pretty bow. Right now, she won't go anywhere else,

692
00:44:50,085 --> 00:44:53,965
Speaker 1: completely unaware that I had a wire on and with

693
00:44:54,085 --> 00:44:57,685
Speaker 1: the police when in my ear, but they were listening,

694
00:44:58,125 --> 00:45:02,205
Speaker 1: and we continued to talk. We talked about my kids,

695
00:45:02,285 --> 00:45:05,725
Speaker 1: their kids, what everyone was doing, and then they were

696
00:45:05,805 --> 00:45:08,525
Speaker 1: inviting me to come back, let's all have dinner together.

697
00:45:09,565 --> 00:45:12,245
Speaker 1: So I wrapped it up and just by saying, look,

698
00:45:13,005 --> 00:45:16,005
Speaker 1: thank you for a for inviting me into your home,

699
00:45:16,045 --> 00:45:19,325
Speaker 1: but thank you for acknowledging that that makes so many

700
00:45:19,365 --> 00:45:22,845
Speaker 1: things fall into place and just made me feel so

701
00:45:22,925 --> 00:45:25,525
Speaker 1: much better. And that was just bye bye, And I

702
00:45:25,565 --> 00:45:28,965
Speaker 1: walked out the door and nearly collapsed and then got

703
00:45:28,965 --> 00:45:32,325
Speaker 1: to the car and Scott just said, thank you.

704
00:45:35,005 --> 00:45:35,565
Speaker 2: That is.

705
00:45:37,645 --> 00:45:41,045
Speaker 1: Extraordinary, finest piece of acting I've ever done. Maybe, well,

706
00:45:41,525 --> 00:45:42,245
Speaker 1: how's that?

707
00:45:42,885 --> 00:45:45,885
Speaker 2: But you know, it's such a strange thing because if

708
00:45:45,885 --> 00:45:48,605
Speaker 2: you think about and I saw Amanda Lee in the

709
00:45:48,605 --> 00:45:52,725
Speaker 2: sixty minute story that you did about this, she couldn't

710
00:45:52,725 --> 00:45:58,005
Speaker 2: have done it. Those other kids couldn't do it. And

711
00:45:58,085 --> 00:46:02,365
Speaker 2: it's as though your life and the choices that you

712
00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:08,405
Speaker 2: made subsequent to that placed you perfectly with a dose

713
00:46:08,485 --> 00:46:13,605
Speaker 2: of credible as I said, courage to worry out. What

714
00:46:13,685 --> 00:46:17,965
Speaker 2: are the odds? I know? I mean you were talking

715
00:46:18,525 --> 00:46:25,125
Speaker 2: about the statistics of children that are sexually abused, and

716
00:46:25,885 --> 00:46:28,565
Speaker 2: part of what brought that home to you was in

717
00:46:28,605 --> 00:46:33,365
Speaker 2: the wake of you embarking on your own justice, how

718
00:46:33,365 --> 00:46:36,725
Speaker 2: many people approached you or contacted you.

719
00:46:37,005 --> 00:46:42,005
Speaker 1: At its height, I was being approached by between five

720
00:46:42,045 --> 00:46:46,885
Speaker 1: to eight people in the street every day just to

721
00:46:46,965 --> 00:46:52,805
Speaker 1: share their experience. Ada, thank me for my bravery. I

722
00:46:52,805 --> 00:46:55,245
Speaker 1: feel there you go. It's almost like one to put

723
00:46:55,285 --> 00:46:59,245
Speaker 1: inverted commas because I'm too embarrass to own it. Thank

724
00:46:59,325 --> 00:47:03,645
Speaker 1: me for my bravery. But up to this date, since

725
00:47:04,285 --> 00:47:08,525
Speaker 1: first making my initial disclosure publicly, I've had in excess

726
00:47:08,565 --> 00:47:14,005
Speaker 1: of forty thousand, close to fifty thousand Australians who've emailed me,

727
00:47:14,125 --> 00:47:16,525
Speaker 1: messaged me, stop me in the street who have been

728
00:47:16,605 --> 00:47:22,645
Speaker 1: part of my inner outer circle, associates, work colleagues to

729
00:47:22,765 --> 00:47:27,445
Speaker 1: disclose that it happened to them. Now, I'm just one

730
00:47:27,485 --> 00:47:31,885
Speaker 1: person walking around on the planet. If I can be

731
00:47:31,925 --> 00:47:35,565
Speaker 1: a magnet for that degree of disclosures, then how big

732
00:47:35,645 --> 00:47:39,085
Speaker 1: is this issue? I tell you right now, it is

733
00:47:40,125 --> 00:47:45,045
Speaker 1: enormous and it does not get the traction that it deserves.

734
00:47:46,245 --> 00:47:48,285
Speaker 1: I'm going to take a little moment here to acknowledge

735
00:47:48,565 --> 00:47:52,525
Speaker 1: my therapist to name was Vada Shepherd, and she was

736
00:47:52,565 --> 00:47:57,685
Speaker 1: a victim of trauma herself, of quite horrific trauma, and

737
00:47:57,725 --> 00:48:04,805
Speaker 1: she taught me how to mitigate my trauma response. Now,

738
00:48:04,885 --> 00:48:08,205
Speaker 1: for those of you, it's become almost a hashtag trauma,

739
00:48:08,765 --> 00:48:11,525
Speaker 1: but for those who've suffered a significant trauma in their

740
00:48:11,565 --> 00:48:15,805
Speaker 1: formative years, it becomes enmeshed in who you are, becomes

741
00:48:15,925 --> 00:48:20,125
Speaker 1: part of You can't rationalize it. All. This thing happened

742
00:48:20,125 --> 00:48:23,045
Speaker 1: to me when I was a child, but that was then.

743
00:48:23,565 --> 00:48:26,685
Speaker 1: This is now. There's a clear distinction for someone who's

744
00:48:26,725 --> 00:48:29,285
Speaker 1: experienced that when they're triggered, you go straight back to

745
00:48:29,405 --> 00:48:33,085
Speaker 1: that place where you're under threat, someone's about to hurt you,

746
00:48:33,725 --> 00:48:36,005
Speaker 1: and you go one of two ways. There's the dorsal

747
00:48:36,085 --> 00:48:40,245
Speaker 1: vagel response, where your body starts goes to sleep, it's

748
00:48:40,285 --> 00:48:43,045
Speaker 1: like the animal rolling over and bearing, exposing its bally

749
00:48:43,165 --> 00:48:48,005
Speaker 1: awesome ye to the predator. Or you go into the

750
00:48:48,245 --> 00:48:51,285
Speaker 1: hypo arousal, where you go a bit nutty, where you're

751
00:48:51,285 --> 00:48:55,525
Speaker 1: in fight or flight. You're doing a million things at once, hyperventilation.

752
00:48:54,925 --> 00:48:57,165
Speaker 2: And I guess which one can I get switch one you.

753
00:48:57,125 --> 00:48:59,445
Speaker 1: Are, I go into drop was in most of my

754
00:48:59,565 --> 00:49:02,405
Speaker 1: I spend most of my functional life in fight or flight.

755
00:49:02,565 --> 00:49:05,645
Speaker 1: All the time. You're mitigating something bad happening. But when

756
00:49:05,685 --> 00:49:10,605
Speaker 1: I'm actually confronted by confrontation or I'm scared or I'm

757
00:49:10,645 --> 00:49:12,925
Speaker 1: under threat, I go into dorsal vagel where I will

758
00:49:12,925 --> 00:49:16,605
Speaker 1: literally fall asleep. And I've been known to be having

759
00:49:16,645 --> 00:49:19,805
Speaker 1: an argument with someone and I will literally drive them batty,

760
00:49:19,845 --> 00:49:23,725
Speaker 1: but I will have literally dozed off. I'll just I'm confronted,

761
00:49:23,725 --> 00:49:26,605
Speaker 1: something bad's going to happen. I just shut down. She

762
00:49:26,925 --> 00:49:31,445
Speaker 1: taught me how to mitigate that. She taught me breathing techniques,

763
00:49:31,685 --> 00:49:36,725
Speaker 1: visualization techniques, physical exercises, almost like preparing to stroll onto

764
00:49:36,765 --> 00:49:39,965
Speaker 1: a stage. And we're talking about vocal warm ups earlier.

765
00:49:40,325 --> 00:49:44,565
Speaker 1: She taught me how to mitigate that. And so when

766
00:49:44,565 --> 00:49:46,885
Speaker 1: we were sitting in a car at five am before

767
00:49:46,885 --> 00:49:50,645
Speaker 1: I went in, I was going into dorsalvagel full, I

768
00:49:50,685 --> 00:49:53,485
Speaker 1: was starting to nod off. I was falling asleep, and

769
00:49:53,565 --> 00:49:56,965
Speaker 1: I said to Scott, I can't do this. I'm just

770
00:49:57,045 --> 00:50:00,005
Speaker 1: not here. I can't do this. And he grabbed my

771
00:50:00,045 --> 00:50:04,685
Speaker 1: hands and he said, Madeline, just act that's what you're

772
00:50:04,685 --> 00:50:07,805
Speaker 1: good at. Pretend that you're a woman who has been

773
00:50:08,165 --> 00:50:12,725
Speaker 1: horrifically wronged. You go in there and you seek justice.

774
00:50:13,045 --> 00:50:17,525
Speaker 1: And I went, oh, okay, I woke up and I

775
00:50:17,565 --> 00:50:19,205
Speaker 1: went I marched in there, and I did what I

776
00:50:19,205 --> 00:50:22,165
Speaker 1: had to do. But I wanted to touch on Varda because

777
00:50:23,245 --> 00:50:28,405
Speaker 1: she and this is quite I've never really spoken about this,

778
00:50:28,525 --> 00:50:35,485
Speaker 1: but she she developed secondary breast cancer whilst my case

779
00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:39,005
Speaker 1: was playing out in court, and she didn't tell anyone

780
00:50:39,205 --> 00:50:43,845
Speaker 1: that she was sick. She just started. She became close

781
00:50:43,885 --> 00:50:47,325
Speaker 1: friends with Scott and his beautiful partner. She was an

782
00:50:47,325 --> 00:50:51,045
Speaker 1: adored mentor to me, and yet suddenly she just sort

783
00:50:51,045 --> 00:50:53,565
Speaker 1: of disappeared off the scene. And she'd send us into

784
00:50:53,605 --> 00:50:55,965
Speaker 1: midten texts just checking on us and telling us how

785
00:50:56,045 --> 00:51:01,045
Speaker 1: much she loved us. And we found out from her daughter.

786
00:51:03,605 --> 00:51:08,645
Speaker 1: The last Varda was coming in out of consciousness and

787
00:51:08,685 --> 00:51:13,365
Speaker 1: Scott had metsage her phone to let her know that

788
00:51:13,405 --> 00:51:17,605
Speaker 1: Peter had pled guilty and was going to jail, and

789
00:51:17,685 --> 00:51:24,765
Speaker 1: she passed away the same day. She'd hold on till

790
00:51:24,805 --> 00:51:29,045
Speaker 1: that last minute, and that very last minute, to ensure

791
00:51:29,205 --> 00:51:34,205
Speaker 1: justice was served, and then she let go, and that

792
00:51:34,365 --> 00:51:37,925
Speaker 1: just breaks my heart. That she didn't tell me. That

793
00:51:38,005 --> 00:51:42,405
Speaker 1: I found out afterwards, and I understand why, but that

794
00:51:42,925 --> 00:51:47,885
Speaker 1: this woman have a fortitude to move through her own

795
00:51:47,925 --> 00:51:53,365
Speaker 1: traumas and assist me to seek justice on behalf of

796
00:51:53,565 --> 00:51:56,325
Speaker 1: so many, she said earlier, who don't have the agency,

797
00:51:56,325 --> 00:51:58,525
Speaker 1: who don't have the opportunity, for all the other victims

798
00:51:58,525 --> 00:52:01,565
Speaker 1: in this case, and all the cases across the centuries,

799
00:52:02,045 --> 00:52:05,845
Speaker 1: and for everyone right here now, living and breathing, who

800
00:52:05,845 --> 00:52:10,085
Speaker 1: has experienced this as a small, defenseless, vulnerable child, for

801
00:52:10,165 --> 00:52:12,205
Speaker 1: me to be able to get up there and get

802
00:52:12,325 --> 00:52:16,285
Speaker 1: justice on behalf of everyone. She waited to ensure justice

803
00:52:16,285 --> 00:52:20,765
Speaker 1: had been served before she let herself go. And for me,

804
00:52:20,845 --> 00:52:22,485
Speaker 1: that's the most important story, at part of.

805
00:52:22,405 --> 00:52:29,285
Speaker 2: The whole story. I mean, it's all important. It's all important.

806
00:52:29,285 --> 00:52:32,125
Speaker 2: And also I imagine from her there was a degree

807
00:52:32,165 --> 00:52:37,765
Speaker 2: also of not wanting to add to what was already,

808
00:52:38,005 --> 00:52:40,725
Speaker 2: what you're already enduring, and what you had to good

809
00:52:40,805 --> 00:52:41,245
Speaker 2: your loin.

810
00:52:41,405 --> 00:52:43,365
Speaker 1: And she knew me too well. She knew that I

811
00:52:43,365 --> 00:52:45,165
Speaker 1: would have cooked up a couple of casseroles and I

812
00:52:45,165 --> 00:52:46,925
Speaker 1: would have been on her doorstep, banging on the door,

813
00:52:46,925 --> 00:52:51,485
Speaker 1: demanding to be let in. And so she chose her path,

814
00:52:51,885 --> 00:52:55,645
Speaker 1: and that path was one of love and support to

815
00:52:55,725 --> 00:52:57,885
Speaker 1: her up right up until her final breath.

816
00:52:59,045 --> 00:53:04,645
Speaker 2: Madeline West, what does the future hold beyond you holding

817
00:53:04,765 --> 00:53:10,605
Speaker 2: your newest baby in three weeks time? What do you

818
00:53:10,645 --> 00:53:14,765
Speaker 2: say for yourself now as you step into the future.

819
00:53:16,485 --> 00:53:26,165
Speaker 1: I see myself living large, laughing loud, loving hard, with

820
00:53:26,405 --> 00:53:29,645
Speaker 1: none of the barriers that stopped me doing that in

821
00:53:29,685 --> 00:53:36,405
Speaker 1: the past. I see me continuing to do the work

822
00:53:37,165 --> 00:53:45,565
Speaker 1: that I do in assisting victims to become not just survivors,

823
00:53:45,645 --> 00:53:49,605
Speaker 1: but you heroes in their own life, to acknowledge that

824
00:53:49,685 --> 00:53:55,245
Speaker 1: you've really you've survived something phenomenal. My focus is very,

825
00:53:55,365 --> 00:53:58,285
Speaker 1: very firmly on being the best mum I can be

826
00:53:59,165 --> 00:54:02,565
Speaker 1: and being the best person I can be to continue

827
00:54:02,565 --> 00:54:05,605
Speaker 1: being a contributing global citizen. I like to feel, in

828
00:54:05,645 --> 00:54:09,045
Speaker 1: my own small way that what I've been through has

829
00:54:09,045 --> 00:54:14,885
Speaker 1: an me to leave a legacy and to act, yeah,

830
00:54:15,005 --> 00:54:20,685
Speaker 1: to continue that work and just being present, really just

831
00:54:21,405 --> 00:54:26,605
Speaker 1: smelling the roses and gosh to have come this far,

832
00:54:27,565 --> 00:54:31,165
Speaker 1: and I have lived a very big life to come

833
00:54:31,205 --> 00:54:34,565
Speaker 1: this far, but to really just be present and to

834
00:54:34,645 --> 00:54:40,085
Speaker 1: appreciate every moment for what it is and stop rushing

835
00:54:40,525 --> 00:54:44,965
Speaker 1: headlong into the future, to be right here, right now,

836
00:54:45,845 --> 00:54:50,125
Speaker 1: and to be so grateful to be right here, right now,

837
00:54:50,685 --> 00:54:55,765
Speaker 1: so to live gracefully and gratefully without apology.

838
00:54:58,285 --> 00:55:06,845
Speaker 2: Oh, Madeline West Melanie, and I embraced that name, that

839
00:55:06,965 --> 00:55:11,805
Speaker 2: little girl she's in Now, I feel like I'm a

840
00:55:11,805 --> 00:55:15,525
Speaker 2: bush godal that is being perfectly put together, and.

841
00:55:17,245 --> 00:55:21,525
Speaker 1: The jigsaw puzzle that makes up my life is complete.

842
00:55:22,205 --> 00:55:26,805
Speaker 2: I cannot thank you enough, not just for sharing your

843
00:55:26,845 --> 00:55:32,605
Speaker 2: story with no filter in our listeners, but also for

844
00:55:32,725 --> 00:55:39,125
Speaker 2: your valiance, proper, proper valiance.

845
00:55:40,085 --> 00:55:44,125
Speaker 1: That is so beautiful. Thank you for that. I would

846
00:55:44,125 --> 00:55:46,245
Speaker 1: have never attached that word to myself and popping that

847
00:55:46,285 --> 00:55:51,685
Speaker 1: in my CV, because I love it. I suppose it's

848
00:55:51,685 --> 00:55:55,005
Speaker 1: a word I wouldn't have associated with myself because valiance

849
00:55:55,045 --> 00:56:01,605
Speaker 1: comes with a really strong image of being armored, you know, armor,

850
00:56:02,165 --> 00:56:06,845
Speaker 1: the white knight riding on his noble steed. And it's

851
00:56:06,925 --> 00:56:11,285
Speaker 1: only now that I've left my armor drop. For so

852
00:56:11,405 --> 00:56:15,125
Speaker 1: many For most of my life, my New Year's resolution

853
00:56:15,205 --> 00:56:17,525
Speaker 1: every year was to pull on the boxing gloves. And

854
00:56:17,565 --> 00:56:19,405
Speaker 1: this year, I'm going to fight. I'm going to fight.

855
00:56:19,445 --> 00:56:22,565
Speaker 1: I'm going to fight. I'm not going to fight anymore.

856
00:56:23,645 --> 00:56:25,125
Speaker 2: Thanks Matt, Thanks.

857
00:56:24,925 --> 00:56:27,245
Speaker 1: Kay, it's been so gorgeous having a chat.

858
00:56:31,085 --> 00:56:33,805
Speaker 2: This is one of the most astounding conversations that I've

859
00:56:33,805 --> 00:56:37,365
Speaker 2: ever had. I said this to Madeline after the interview,

860
00:56:38,125 --> 00:56:40,805
Speaker 2: that I just wanted to thank her for being so

861
00:56:40,965 --> 00:56:45,685
Speaker 2: honest with me and with you, our listeners, and the

862
00:56:45,765 --> 00:56:48,885
Speaker 2: fact that she has allowed so many people to find

863
00:56:48,885 --> 00:56:53,045
Speaker 2: the courage to speak out. She's proven herself to be

864
00:56:53,325 --> 00:56:58,645
Speaker 2: so resourceful, so resilient, and in a word that's bandied

865
00:56:58,725 --> 00:57:02,805
Speaker 2: around far too often, she is the definition of bravery.

866
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Speaker 2: The executive producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior

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Speaker 2: producer is Grace U. Sound design is by Jacob Brown,

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Speaker 2: and I'm your host, Kate lane Brook. I'll be back

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Speaker 2: with you next week. And if this episode brings up

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Speaker 2: any hard feelings and you need to talk to someone,

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Speaker 2: We've put some links to resources in the show notes.