WEBVTT - Six Conversations We’re Scared to Have, And Why Deborah Frances-White Is Having Them Anyway 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.845 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.485 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.605 --> 0:00:20.165 If you're listening with a child in the car, you 0:00:20.285 --> 0:00:22.165 might want to turn this down. But a man came 0:00:22.165 --> 0:00:26.405 into my DMS and I could see who he was, like, 0:00:26.445 --> 0:00:28.765 I could literally see, I know who he is and 0:00:29.245 --> 0:00:31.925 what he does for a living and everything. And he said, 0:00:32.165 --> 0:00:38.605 you are an ugly, stupid, dangerous, disingenuous. You are literally 0:00:39.165 --> 0:00:42.725 the downfall of the Western world. All I can do 0:00:42.805 --> 0:00:52.325 is pray for you, praying hands emoji. Deborah Francis White 0:00:52.605 --> 0:00:56.205 is a Swiss army knife. She's a comedian, a best 0:00:56.205 --> 0:00:59.925 selling author, a podcaster, and a woman who's built a 0:01:00.005 --> 0:01:04.805 career asking hard questions the kind most people are too 0:01:04.925 --> 0:01:09.405 uncomfortable to ask out loud. She's the creator of The 0:01:09.445 --> 0:01:14.445 Guilty Feminist, a global podcast phenomenon. She's performed to sold 0:01:14.485 --> 0:01:17.325 out theaters around the world. She's hosted panels at the 0:01:17.445 --> 0:01:22.845 United Nations. She's written plays and screenplays, and now a 0:01:22.925 --> 0:01:28.165 new book. It's called Six Conversations We're Scared to Have, 0:01:28.885 --> 0:01:32.365 and it's exactly that. A guide to the big, messy 0:01:32.605 --> 0:01:37.045 uncomfortable topics we often avoid. In this conversation, we talk 0:01:37.085 --> 0:01:43.245 about why Deborah believes in curiosity over outrage, dialogue over silence, 0:01:43.885 --> 0:01:49.085 and how comedy remains her way into everything. Deborah also 0:01:49.165 --> 0:01:53.405 shares how her early life shaped her worldview, from being 0:01:53.445 --> 0:01:56.965 adopted as a baby and raised as a Jehovah's witness, which, 0:01:57.005 --> 0:02:00.885 by the way, I also was, to eventually walking away 0:02:00.965 --> 0:02:04.525 from everything she was taught and building. 0:02:04.125 --> 0:02:09.165 A life and voice of her own. She's thoughtful, she's fearsed, 0:02:09.365 --> 0:02:13.965 she's funny, she's flawed, and she's doing something not many 0:02:13.965 --> 0:02:17.645 people are brave enough to do right now, She's creating 0:02:17.805 --> 0:02:22.805 space for nuance. This is Deborah Francis White. 0:02:23.765 --> 0:02:24.045 Hello. 0:02:24.485 --> 0:02:28.205 Your tradition is I'm a feminist. Bus the game that 0:02:28.365 --> 0:02:31.645 everybody loves to play, to play, loves to play, and 0:02:31.685 --> 0:02:35.605 you're already gone. I'm a feminist. But in the substance, 0:02:35.685 --> 0:02:37.525 I would have loved the sub I would have just listened. 0:02:37.605 --> 0:02:39.325 At the beginning, in the first ten minutes of the film, 0:02:39.325 --> 0:02:42.325 I was googling, can I get the substance? But obviously no, 0:02:42.685 --> 0:02:46.805 it doesn't look that fun because you don't get to experience. Also, 0:02:46.845 --> 0:02:48.485 you do get to be yourself. I don't want to 0:02:48.525 --> 0:02:51.805 be some starlet doing an aerobic show. I want to be me, 0:02:52.845 --> 0:02:55.325 but just looking as glamorous as possible. 0:02:55.445 --> 0:02:57.365 Well, this is what we all want, and this is 0:02:57.405 --> 0:03:02.645 the natural tension between you know, as you always point 0:03:02.685 --> 0:03:07.765 out in The Guilty Feminist, there's that tension inherent in 0:03:07.885 --> 0:03:08.685 so many of. 0:03:08.645 --> 0:03:14.125 Us because we've been raised to think that youth is 0:03:14.805 --> 0:03:16.165 somehow better than age. 0:03:16.485 --> 0:03:17.885 But it is still. 0:03:19.205 --> 0:03:21.965 It's absurd, though, I feel like it is. Do you 0:03:22.005 --> 0:03:22.285 know what? 0:03:22.445 --> 0:03:26.285 I wonder how much people felt like that before advertising existed, 0:03:26.605 --> 0:03:29.165 because imagine if you just lived in a village where 0:03:29.245 --> 0:03:33.205 there was no photography, very few mirrors, and there was 0:03:33.365 --> 0:03:36.205 no constant messaging that younger is better. 0:03:36.245 --> 0:03:37.445 When they started selling. 0:03:37.205 --> 0:03:39.365 Youth to us, anything that they want to say, they 0:03:39.485 --> 0:03:41.965 constantly selling you you want to buy, so you know, 0:03:42.005 --> 0:03:44.925 we just getting here today. I would have gone past 0:03:45.285 --> 0:03:48.845 umpty in billboards, bus stops telling me I'm worth it, 0:03:49.405 --> 0:03:55.085 But the messaging within I'm worth it is Jennifer Aniston 0:03:55.205 --> 0:03:57.885 who's just had her hair blow dried by someone who 0:03:57.965 --> 0:04:00.845 charges five hundred dollars a blow dry, so you know, 0:04:00.925 --> 0:04:03.365 and then also been photoshop So there's a there's a 0:04:03.485 --> 0:04:05.885 there's a sense that I think we just have no 0:04:06.005 --> 0:04:08.805 way of knowing how brainwashed we are because we've all 0:04:08.845 --> 0:04:13.965 been born well after advertising really took hold. So we 0:04:14.205 --> 0:04:16.765 just we'll never be able to unpick how much of 0:04:16.885 --> 0:04:18.325 us aspiring for youth? 0:04:19.245 --> 0:04:21.965 No is that how much is nature and how much 0:04:21.965 --> 0:04:22.645 he's nurture. 0:04:23.405 --> 0:04:24.725 I just don't think there's any way of knowing. 0:04:24.765 --> 0:04:28.205 But what I will tell you is this, Sometimes when 0:04:28.245 --> 0:04:30.765 I think about us all aspiring to look twenty one 0:04:30.805 --> 0:04:33.445 the whole time, even though we wouldn't say that, there 0:04:33.485 --> 0:04:36.845 is part of us going. My jawline used to be high, 0:04:37.605 --> 0:04:42.645 My jawline used to be there. See how lovely and lovely. 0:04:42.365 --> 0:04:43.845 And type that is now? 0:04:44.765 --> 0:04:47.045 Obviously, when I look at myself in the mirror, I go, hmm, 0:04:47.325 --> 0:04:49.565 it would look better if it were where it were 0:04:49.605 --> 0:04:52.525 when I was twenty one, which is probably there. But 0:04:52.925 --> 0:04:56.045 a twenty one year old twenty one year old is 0:04:56.045 --> 0:04:58.445 an emotional fuck with Yeah, twenty one year old. Why 0:04:58.485 --> 0:05:00.805 do I want the face of someone who doesn't know 0:05:00.885 --> 0:05:02.485 that it's going to cause trouble if she kisses her 0:05:02.485 --> 0:05:05.605 best friend's boyfriend? Why Why do I want the face 0:05:05.645 --> 0:05:07.245 of someone who thinks she knows more than her own mother. 0:05:07.885 --> 0:05:09.325 Why why do I want that face? 0:05:09.685 --> 0:05:13.565 It is and it is a mystery because a woman, really, 0:05:13.765 --> 0:05:16.445 I think a human being doesn't come into their own 0:05:16.925 --> 0:05:20.685 until they've had quite a bit of autonomy. Why do 0:05:20.805 --> 0:05:24.565 I want the face of somebody who is less clever, 0:05:25.125 --> 0:05:29.245 somebody who is less emotionally involved, less knows herself less? 0:05:29.245 --> 0:05:32.165 Well, I do have a question for the universe. 0:05:32.485 --> 0:05:35.565 Why does confidence arrive just as college and is leaving 0:05:35.565 --> 0:05:36.005 the building? 0:05:36.605 --> 0:05:40.365 And my guess is this because you only need one 0:05:40.485 --> 0:05:40.805 or the other. 0:05:41.405 --> 0:05:44.485 And when you're eighteen, you don't have a lot of confidence, 0:05:45.165 --> 0:05:47.245 or if you do, it's misplaced because you don't yet 0:05:47.405 --> 0:05:51.045 have that self knowledge, you don't have any experience. So 0:05:52.125 --> 0:05:55.245 I think the universe gives us either college or confidence. 0:05:55.685 --> 0:05:58.165 And if you've got both, hey, and you're eighteen, you're 0:05:58.205 --> 0:05:59.125 twenty five, whatever. 0:05:58.925 --> 0:06:00.245 It must be a sweet you go for it. 0:06:00.565 --> 0:06:04.085 There's a sweet spot for some. But it's the day 0:06:04.205 --> 0:06:05.365 then they never converge. 0:06:05.445 --> 0:06:08.085 It's the day you turned thirty four, and then the 0:06:08.165 --> 0:06:12.165 day after that immediately if you enjoy your thirty fourth birthday, 0:06:12.205 --> 0:06:14.165 it's literally the one day when you have both. 0:06:14.445 --> 0:06:19.165 Well, it's like those comedy actresses, the SNL actresses, it's 0:06:19.365 --> 0:06:20.565 the Last Fuckable Day. 0:06:20.885 --> 0:06:26.205 Oh god, that's incredible funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's incredibly funny. 0:06:26.285 --> 0:06:29.485 But it isn't. It's an interesting thing because you know, 0:06:29.525 --> 0:06:32.525 you talk about a twenty one year old and I 0:06:32.565 --> 0:06:39.205 remember that being a very desolate part of my life 0:06:40.085 --> 0:06:46.685 where you're looking for really yourself. Probably, yes, that's right. 0:06:46.885 --> 0:06:50.525 It's a time when you don't know which direction. You're 0:06:50.845 --> 0:06:53.285 like an untethered compass, the compass that's broken. It's just 0:06:53.765 --> 0:06:57.765 flipping around in every direction. So you might meet. 0:06:58.445 --> 0:07:02.405 A man or a woman or somebody who you're you're thinking, 0:07:02.445 --> 0:07:04.525 I'm going to follow this person. It might be a lover, 0:07:04.645 --> 0:07:06.605 it might be a best friend. It might be someone 0:07:06.685 --> 0:07:08.725 you have a crush on that doesn't know you're alive. 0:07:09.405 --> 0:07:10.805 It might be a job offer. 0:07:10.925 --> 0:07:13.805 It could be I've got to do a master's or 0:07:13.845 --> 0:07:17.085 a you know, some kind of professional qualification, and that's 0:07:17.125 --> 0:07:19.925 when I'm going to find myself. And what you keep 0:07:19.965 --> 0:07:22.325 telling yourself is it'll be the next lover, or the 0:07:22.365 --> 0:07:25.765 next project, or the next triple. I'll be a different 0:07:25.805 --> 0:07:28.645 person if I cross Europe with a backpack. And we 0:07:28.765 --> 0:07:32.285 keep telling ourselves that because we're thinking. But if I 0:07:32.565 --> 0:07:36.365 complete this task like I'm in some video games, everything 0:07:36.365 --> 0:07:39.045 will be all right. But actually it takes years of 0:07:39.085 --> 0:07:42.885 experience and experimentation to find out who you are, what 0:07:42.925 --> 0:07:47.245 you want, and you're always being shaped by the mistakes 0:07:47.285 --> 0:07:49.805 along the way. Sometimes they can make you bolder, sometimes 0:07:49.845 --> 0:07:51.885 they can make you more timid. Sometimes they can make 0:07:51.885 --> 0:07:54.245 you more extroverted. Sometimes they can make you more introverted, 0:07:54.525 --> 0:07:57.005 So that the mistakes and the successes along the way 0:07:57.085 --> 0:07:57.725 shape who. 0:07:57.605 --> 0:07:59.445 You arrive at. 0:07:59.645 --> 0:08:02.525 You know and when you find yourself, and some people 0:08:02.525 --> 0:08:06.765 never do. But if you do the work and you 0:08:06.925 --> 0:08:08.925 get past and you're lucky enough to live in a 0:08:08.925 --> 0:08:12.925 time and place where you have a certain amount of 0:08:14.245 --> 0:08:15.925 emotional space. 0:08:16.565 --> 0:08:19.805 Where were you at twenty one? Oh? God, were you 0:08:19.845 --> 0:08:23.325 still in Brisbane? No, you'd fly in the coupe. Oh, 0:08:23.485 --> 0:08:26.285 because people may not know that you're one of us, 0:08:26.565 --> 0:08:28.045 one of us, one of that. 0:08:28.605 --> 0:08:30.165 Yes, I was born in Brisbane. 0:08:30.485 --> 0:08:34.285 I was raised on the Gold Coast most of it, 0:08:34.445 --> 0:08:38.685 most of my time, and then I moved to Sydney 0:08:39.005 --> 0:08:43.765 in my early twenties and then moved to London. But 0:08:44.005 --> 0:08:46.725 I was a Jehovah's witness when I was between mid 0:08:46.765 --> 0:08:47.885 teens and. 0:08:49.205 --> 0:08:49.925 Mid twenties. 0:08:49.965 --> 0:08:52.005 Can I tell you something. Yes, I was raised to 0:08:52.085 --> 0:08:55.165 Jehovah's Oh my goodness, and when I was reading your book, 0:08:55.245 --> 0:08:58.445 this remarkable book, by the way, and your story generally, 0:08:59.325 --> 0:09:01.365 in some ways, it was like meeting myself. 0:09:01.525 --> 0:09:02.085 Wow. 0:09:02.645 --> 0:09:07.365 It's very rare in the media to meet another former Jehovah's. 0:09:07.365 --> 0:09:10.365 Although what I will say is there is a disproportionate 0:09:11.605 --> 0:09:14.965 number of very small religions, there's a disproportionate number of 0:09:14.965 --> 0:09:16.605 extra hos witnesses in the public eye. 0:09:16.965 --> 0:09:19.485 It can either crush you or make you rise. 0:09:20.165 --> 0:09:22.965 And I feel like there are a lot of people 0:09:23.085 --> 0:09:25.405 it's so hard to get out. It's so hard to 0:09:25.405 --> 0:09:27.765 stay in, and it's so hard to get out. And 0:09:27.805 --> 0:09:30.045 I think also, once you've knocked on the door of 0:09:30.365 --> 0:09:34.645 some stranger in Sunday morning and said, with Sharon, you're. 0:09:34.525 --> 0:09:37.365 Going to die horribly and arm again unless. 0:09:37.045 --> 0:09:39.965 You take this magazine The secret to a journal life. 0:09:40.085 --> 0:09:43.565 Stand up comedy says nothing like at least they've left 0:09:43.565 --> 0:09:44.725 the house. That's what I think with a stand up 0:09:44.725 --> 0:09:46.845 comedy audience, at least they've left the house. Can you 0:09:46.845 --> 0:09:48.965 imagine knocking on someone's door or a Sunday morning and going 0:09:49.005 --> 0:09:52.765 I've got some jokes, So I think I'm paid to 0:09:52.805 --> 0:09:55.045 be here like this is a this is as nothing 0:09:55.445 --> 0:09:57.325 to stand up on stage after you've done all of that. 0:09:58.165 --> 0:10:01.245 So yeah, wow, whereabouts were you? 0:10:01.285 --> 0:10:02.725 So I'm also from Brisbane? 0:10:02.925 --> 0:10:03.405 Oh wow? 0:10:03.685 --> 0:10:06.805 And my dad was an elder good lord and my 0:10:06.885 --> 0:10:09.845 brother was a ministerial servant. He's now a petitian on 0:10:09.885 --> 0:10:12.285 the Gold Coast's what one club for. 0:10:12.525 --> 0:10:13.765 Actually that he's a politician. 0:10:14.205 --> 0:10:16.445 There's a lot of people who are in the public 0:10:16.445 --> 0:10:18.605 eyeho have some kind of profile or job in the 0:10:18.645 --> 0:10:21.765 media or sports job, or singers who are Extrahovah's witness 0:10:21.965 --> 0:10:23.485 It's really common. 0:10:23.365 --> 0:10:28.525 And I am curious about I mean, I know you 0:10:28.605 --> 0:10:32.165 speak about this also in your book, but how much 0:10:32.205 --> 0:10:36.085 of having been cultified, yes, and freed yourself from that 0:10:37.485 --> 0:10:41.005 led to you being a curious and critical thinker now 0:10:41.045 --> 0:10:45.205 because your book Six Conversations We're scared to have, Yes, 0:10:47.685 --> 0:10:50.925 nervous hands holding the conversations is very much a product 0:10:51.005 --> 0:10:55.085 of someone who who learned to question early. 0:10:55.245 --> 0:11:00.885 I think, yes, I think the thing for me about 0:11:00.925 --> 0:11:05.605 the Jehovah's witnesses is because all your thoughts are thought 0:11:05.645 --> 0:11:08.525 for you know what you think about everything? Yes, and 0:11:08.885 --> 0:11:11.845 there's there's there are no, there's no free thinking alound, 0:11:11.885 --> 0:11:15.165 So you couldn't say. And I tell this story about 0:11:15.245 --> 0:11:18.725 someone called Sister Pamela who was in my congregation and 0:11:19.485 --> 0:11:20.285 on a Sunday. 0:11:20.405 --> 0:11:22.085 That's not a nun by the way, for people who 0:11:22.125 --> 0:11:24.125 don't know witnesses. No, we would call it all each 0:11:24.125 --> 0:11:26.605 other's sister. So you'd be sister Deborah, I'd be Sister 0:11:26.725 --> 0:11:30.405 Kate exactly. And we will have been to district conventions together, 0:11:30.485 --> 0:11:31.285 and yes, we would. 0:11:31.405 --> 0:11:33.045 We would have been at a Lange Park. 0:11:33.205 --> 0:11:35.925 We would have been we go to these big football 0:11:35.925 --> 0:11:38.485 stadiums and you dress up because I got baptized at 0:11:38.565 --> 0:11:39.245 lang Park. 0:11:39.205 --> 0:11:42.005 Did you? Yes? And even at the time, I knew 0:11:42.005 --> 0:11:44.205 that it wasn't right, because you know how sometimes the 0:11:45.525 --> 0:11:47.685 maybe would come, they'd take the newspapers would come and 0:11:47.685 --> 0:11:51.125 take photos of like the freaks, the subjects of freaks 0:11:51.165 --> 0:11:55.565 getting baptized. I remember thinking, oh, I hope this isn't 0:11:55.565 --> 0:11:57.445 in the paper. And none of the kids from school 0:11:57.485 --> 0:12:01.645 see it's not the right way to approach a baptism, 0:12:01.845 --> 0:12:02.565 is it. No? 0:12:02.885 --> 0:12:05.725 No, absolutely, did you get baptized? I did? 0:12:05.805 --> 0:12:07.965 Yeah, I think it was done in like more Wall 0:12:08.005 --> 0:12:11.605 and bar somewhere like somewhere done in northern New South Wales. 0:12:12.165 --> 0:12:16.725 But I was only sixteen, so I was a minor 0:12:17.245 --> 0:12:19.045 and I don't think that should be allowed. 0:12:19.325 --> 0:12:21.525 I think you need to be of age. 0:12:22.125 --> 0:12:26.605 That's very interesting actually, because it's not like, for instance, Catholicism, 0:12:26.605 --> 0:12:29.765 where there's a baby christening. It is supposed to be 0:12:29.885 --> 0:12:32.925 when you're conscious, and you can make the choice about. 0:12:33.205 --> 0:12:36.045 Increasing their baptizing them younger and young. Some of them 0:12:36.085 --> 0:12:37.885 are getting baptized at nine and eleven years. 0:12:38.325 --> 0:12:39.205 The reason it's. 0:12:39.045 --> 0:12:43.165 Different from Catholicism, and you know, listen, there's a host 0:12:43.245 --> 0:12:47.965 of problems with any extreme religion, any fundamentalist religion. But 0:12:48.485 --> 0:12:50.485 the reason it's different is once you're baptized di a 0:12:50.565 --> 0:12:53.565 Jehovah's witness, if you decide you want to leave or 0:12:53.645 --> 0:12:57.605 you are thrown out. Essentially you're excommunicated because they decide 0:12:57.685 --> 0:13:00.765 that you've sinned. They could just decide you've got a 0:13:00.765 --> 0:13:04.085 Rebelli's attitude. You could have broken one of the rules 0:13:05.245 --> 0:13:08.005 and they can decide you're not repentant enough. The elders 0:13:08.005 --> 0:13:10.605 can make an announcement that sister Kati is no longer 0:13:11.165 --> 0:13:14.205 one of Jehovah's witnesses in this congregation fellowship, and then 0:13:14.245 --> 0:13:16.565 you're just fellowshiped, and then you are cut off from 0:13:16.565 --> 0:13:21.445 your friends and family. And your family can I think, 0:13:21.965 --> 0:13:24.605 speak to you about family things, but they can't socialize 0:13:24.605 --> 0:13:27.325 with you. If you're under the roof too, yes, isn't it, 0:13:27.365 --> 0:13:32.125 But it's not warm or welcoming though you'll be iced out. 0:13:32.525 --> 0:13:35.245 But if you're not living with your family and you're 0:13:35.285 --> 0:13:37.685 of age, they may not speak to you at all. 0:13:37.845 --> 0:13:40.365 They may completely cut you out. And I think there 0:13:40.405 --> 0:13:44.245 is an encouragement to do that lately, so lightly relaxed 0:13:44.245 --> 0:13:46.405 the world. But that's I think because Norway made it. 0:13:46.925 --> 0:13:51.125 I think Norway cut their tax exemptions off because they 0:13:51.165 --> 0:13:54.685 said it was coerci of control. So often if the 0:13:54.725 --> 0:13:58.605 tax situation changes, you see them making little concessions. 0:13:58.885 --> 0:14:01.525 But now it's something like you can ring a. 0:14:01.405 --> 0:14:05.565 Disfellowshipped family member and say please come to the meeting, 0:14:06.925 --> 0:14:08.965 but and you can say hello, but if they burst 0:14:09.005 --> 0:14:12.205 into and say I'm really struggling, you can't talk. 0:14:12.085 --> 0:14:15.445 To them, which it's literally just worse. 0:14:15.565 --> 0:14:18.605 It's more emotionally abusive to say hello, how are you. 0:14:18.965 --> 0:14:20.325 I'm not well, actually. 0:14:20.605 --> 0:14:23.685 Bye bye, I mean just better rock ghosting me. 0:14:23.765 --> 0:14:27.565 You know, also when you came to your family adopted, 0:14:28.205 --> 0:14:31.565 that's right, yes, and that in what way has that 0:14:31.645 --> 0:14:35.925 informed you? Do you think it's a really. 0:14:35.805 --> 0:14:41.165 Interesting one adoption because I would have sworn it hadn't 0:14:41.165 --> 0:14:44.645 affected me. But then you know, as you develop, if 0:14:44.645 --> 0:14:48.245 you are doing network on yourself, you start to identify things. 0:14:48.445 --> 0:14:51.525 And I somebody who else was adopted sent me a 0:14:52.805 --> 0:14:54.405 lecture about adoption and addiction. 0:14:54.685 --> 0:14:55.885 If you just look it up on YouTube. 0:14:55.925 --> 0:14:58.325 There's a guy that he's an expert on adoption and addiction, 0:14:59.325 --> 0:15:05.685 and he says that nearly all adopted children have ADHD, 0:15:06.605 --> 0:15:10.285 and lots of them are addicted to something. Nearly all 0:15:10.285 --> 0:15:13.445 of them addicted to sugar, and some of them addicted 0:15:13.485 --> 0:15:16.645 to crack. And luckily for me, that would be sugar 0:15:16.685 --> 0:15:22.605 over crack. Really lucky that I don't have an addictive 0:15:22.645 --> 0:15:25.045 personality for booze or anything like that. 0:15:25.245 --> 0:15:26.685 I'm very, very very lucky like that. 0:15:27.005 --> 0:15:30.605 But I've always had a sort of dopamine desire with sugar, 0:15:31.365 --> 0:15:33.725 and I had no idea, and lots of people do. 0:15:33.845 --> 0:15:35.965 It may not, it's not that I wouldn't have had 0:15:35.965 --> 0:15:39.085 it otherwise maybe, but it's a really common thing in 0:15:39.165 --> 0:15:44.445 adopted children. And I once worked with a Lebanese film 0:15:44.445 --> 0:15:45.845 director and he just looked at me and he went, 0:15:47.445 --> 0:15:49.125 how old were you when you were adopted? And I 0:15:49.365 --> 0:15:50.645 was like, how did you know I was adopted? And 0:15:50.645 --> 0:15:53.365 he just said how old were you? And I said, 0:15:54.085 --> 0:15:56.925 I said, oh, ten days? And he said, and where 0:15:56.925 --> 0:15:59.245 were you for that ten days? And I said, I 0:15:59.285 --> 0:16:00.885 was just alone in the hospital, you know, in those 0:16:01.005 --> 0:16:05.965 rows of cons that babies are in. And I said, 0:16:06.005 --> 0:16:08.365 just whatever nurse was on shift would feed me on 0:16:08.405 --> 0:16:11.605 a clock and otherwise I was just lying there. And 0:16:11.645 --> 0:16:13.765 he went, that is why you like attention, and that 0:16:13.845 --> 0:16:14.725 is why you like food. 0:16:14.925 --> 0:16:15.205 Food. 0:16:16.005 --> 0:16:23.165 Rude, accurate, probably like because actually a normal newborn, the 0:16:23.205 --> 0:16:25.005 mother's going do you want a little bit more milk? 0:16:25.085 --> 0:16:26.965 Or she's not, like, oh is she cold? 0:16:27.045 --> 0:16:27.205 Is she? 0:16:27.405 --> 0:16:30.405 But I was just lying there and waiting for the 0:16:30.445 --> 0:16:32.845 milk to come. I guess, and I guess when the 0:16:32.845 --> 0:16:35.085 milk comes, you learn very quickly drink all the milk 0:16:35.325 --> 0:16:38.645 because you're outside the womb for the first time, so 0:16:38.685 --> 0:16:41.405 you're learning what is life outside the womb like? And 0:16:41.645 --> 0:16:44.485 they know with newborns, they can tell their own mother's 0:16:44.485 --> 0:16:46.925 breast milk, because they can turn their head. If you 0:16:46.965 --> 0:16:50.445 put drops of different breast milk out for them, they 0:16:50.445 --> 0:16:53.405 go towards the one that's their mother's, and they are 0:16:53.485 --> 0:16:56.325 expecting to hear be held by the person who's voice 0:16:56.325 --> 0:16:59.365 they've been hearing. Yes, that's what they're expecting. And if 0:16:59.365 --> 0:17:01.805 that isn't there, what you're learning for the first ten 0:17:01.885 --> 0:17:07.165 days is outside, I'm on my own, and if milk comes, quickly, 0:17:07.205 --> 0:17:09.005 drink all the milk. Don't leave any because you don't 0:17:09.045 --> 0:17:12.165 know when it's going to come again. That's not to 0:17:12.165 --> 0:17:15.205 say I'm sure I was hugged by the nurses and things. 0:17:15.445 --> 0:17:17.685 But my father always used to tell the story of 0:17:17.885 --> 0:17:19.765 I always knew I was adopted, and my parents always 0:17:19.765 --> 0:17:21.685 made it this, you know, when you've got your stories 0:17:21.725 --> 0:17:22.485 as kids, like. 0:17:22.445 --> 0:17:24.285 Tell me the story of when you came to collect 0:17:24.285 --> 0:17:27.645 me love story. It's love, the same story as told 0:17:27.765 --> 0:17:28.045 you know. 0:17:28.405 --> 0:17:30.525 And sometimes I'd say, tell me the story of when 0:17:30.565 --> 0:17:33.645 you know, And there's this whole rat exactly. There was 0:17:33.645 --> 0:17:36.325 a whole ritual about you know. Dad was at work 0:17:36.365 --> 0:17:38.445 and the phone lines were down because there'd been a storm, 0:17:38.605 --> 0:17:41.685 so my mum had to send him a telegram, come now, 0:17:42.125 --> 0:17:45.765 And his colleague at work said, when he got a telegram, 0:17:45.845 --> 0:17:48.125 so unusual to get a telegram. His colleague said, have 0:17:48.165 --> 0:17:52.005 you won the lottery? And he said, no, it's better 0:17:52.045 --> 0:17:55.245 than that. And then he raced home, picked up my 0:17:55.405 --> 0:17:57.565 mom and my sister and they raced to the to 0:17:57.605 --> 0:18:00.725 the hospital, and they had to stop to get formula 0:18:00.765 --> 0:18:02.805 and bottles and everything on the way because this was 0:18:02.885 --> 0:18:03.845 just out of the blue. 0:18:03.885 --> 0:18:06.645 Come now, yeah, and you know, and so on and 0:18:06.645 --> 0:18:06.845 so on. 0:18:06.925 --> 0:18:09.085 So this whole story was told, and my father always 0:18:09.125 --> 0:18:12.205 used to say, and you were blue with the cold 0:18:12.405 --> 0:18:14.485 and so thin, and. 0:18:14.645 --> 0:18:16.285 Last time that happened, I'll tell you that for nothing. 0:18:16.645 --> 0:18:19.125 You get home and you're like, great, I'm in a 0:18:19.165 --> 0:18:21.365 safe I'm in a safe home now, you know. And 0:18:21.765 --> 0:18:23.525 I think there are things like. 0:18:23.485 --> 0:18:29.245 That that you you don't realize that affects you. Like 0:18:29.285 --> 0:18:31.525 I always knew that story, my father saying, you were 0:18:31.525 --> 0:18:36.525 in this really kind of old hospital gown that wasn't 0:18:36.565 --> 0:18:39.525 it wasn't very nice, and they dressed me in these 0:18:39.525 --> 0:18:41.925 clothes that presumably had been my sisters that, you know, 0:18:42.245 --> 0:18:45.485 really nice baby clothes and took me away. 0:18:45.485 --> 0:18:46.445 So I was very lucky. 0:18:46.605 --> 0:18:50.605 I think you know to have that, because you know, 0:18:51.125 --> 0:18:53.765 if someone doesn't come and claim you and say you're ours, yes, 0:18:54.285 --> 0:18:57.445 then you know. But some babies of my generation went 0:18:57.565 --> 0:19:00.765 orphanages and as newborns, and you can only imagine what 0:19:00.845 --> 0:19:02.005 a horror show that would have been. 0:19:06.325 --> 0:19:10.445 After this short break, Debris speaks about antl culture and 0:19:10.605 --> 0:19:14.525 reveals the emotional toll it can take when someone is 0:19:14.725 --> 0:19:21.125 cast out given the trajectory of your life and the 0:19:21.165 --> 0:19:24.085 work that you've created. To me, it goes a long 0:19:24.125 --> 0:19:26.525 way to explain why you're quite fearless. 0:19:27.805 --> 0:19:34.205 Do you think maybe maybe? I think how your nature 0:19:34.365 --> 0:19:40.365 is nurtured exacerbates what was there. Anyway, So when I 0:19:40.405 --> 0:19:44.805 see former Jehovah's witnesses, I notice because it is a 0:19:44.845 --> 0:19:48.565 trauma when you leave an organization that won't let you. 0:19:48.725 --> 0:19:51.005 You're not allowed to have any friends outside, and the 0:19:51.085 --> 0:19:55.285 punishment for leaving, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, is shunning, which 0:19:55.325 --> 0:19:58.125 means you end up with nobody. That is a trauma. 0:19:58.165 --> 0:20:00.165 It's a trauma to be shunned. So one of the 0:20:00.205 --> 0:20:02.325 things I talk about in my book is councel culture 0:20:02.485 --> 0:20:05.925 is a form of shunning. And I don't believe you 0:20:05.965 --> 0:20:11.885 can create a society that is compassionate. The compassionate society 0:20:11.925 --> 0:20:16.165 progressives want using uncopassionate means. And so I look into 0:20:16.285 --> 0:20:19.165 the neuroscience of what happens when you shun somebody. 0:20:19.285 --> 0:20:21.565 It is a trauma. There is just no getting away 0:20:21.565 --> 0:20:21.845 from that. 0:20:21.885 --> 0:20:23.885 And it's a trauma for the people doing the shunning 0:20:23.965 --> 0:20:26.405 because they have to turn off their empathy. 0:20:26.605 --> 0:20:28.685 So it's a horrible thing shunning. 0:20:29.085 --> 0:20:31.645 You said this thing that really made me laugh in 0:20:31.685 --> 0:20:35.805 the book where you said, Coca Cola don't advertise by 0:20:35.845 --> 0:20:39.565 saying fuck you if you drink pepsi, you asshole. That's right, 0:20:39.845 --> 0:20:43.165 that's right, which is so true. That doesn't change anybody's 0:20:43.205 --> 0:20:47.085 mind or an extension of that their behavior exactly. 0:20:47.285 --> 0:20:49.445 It's that screw it, screw you if you drink pepsi. 0:20:49.485 --> 0:20:51.685 It's like, no one would say that because it's not persuasive. 0:20:52.165 --> 0:20:56.405 And how how can we as progressive people be so 0:20:56.765 --> 0:20:59.645 unskilled if we think the world is unequal, if we 0:20:59.645 --> 0:21:02.485 think the world is unfair? Kind of how dare we 0:21:02.605 --> 0:21:06.525 be so unskilled as to go online and insult people 0:21:06.725 --> 0:21:10.365 and call them names or say you are not welcome here, 0:21:10.485 --> 0:21:13.045 you go over to that other community because we don't 0:21:13.045 --> 0:21:13.805 want you here. 0:21:13.845 --> 0:21:18.405