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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: If you're listening with a child in the car, you

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Speaker 3: might want to turn this down. But a man came

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Speaker 3: into my DMS and I could see who he was, like,

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Speaker 3: I could literally see, I know who he is and

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Speaker 3: what he does for a living and everything. And he said,

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Speaker 3: you are an ugly, stupid, dangerous, disingenuous. You are literally

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Speaker 3: the downfall of the Western world. All I can do

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Speaker 3: is pray for you, praying hands emoji. Deborah Francis White

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Speaker 3: is a Swiss army knife. She's a comedian, a best

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Speaker 3: selling author, a podcaster, and a woman who's built a

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Speaker 3: career asking hard questions the kind most people are too

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable to ask out loud. She's the creator of The

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Speaker 3: Guilty Feminist, a global podcast phenomenon. She's performed to sold

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Speaker 3: out theaters around the world. She's hosted panels at the

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Speaker 3: United Nations. She's written plays and screenplays, and now a

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Speaker 3: new book. It's called Six Conversations We're Scared to Have,

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Speaker 3: and it's exactly that. A guide to the big, messy

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable topics we often avoid. In this conversation, we talk

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Speaker 3: about why Deborah believes in curiosity over outrage, dialogue over silence,

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Speaker 3: and how comedy remains her way into everything. Deborah also

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Speaker 3: shares how her early life shaped her worldview, from being

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Speaker 3: adopted as a baby and raised as a Jehovah's witness, which,

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Speaker 3: by the way, I also was, to eventually walking away

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Speaker 3: from everything she was taught and building.

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Speaker 2: A life and voice of her own. She's thoughtful, she's fearsed,

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Speaker 2: she's funny, she's flawed, and she's doing something not many

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Speaker 2: people are brave enough to do right now, She's creating

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Speaker 2: space for nuance. This is Deborah Francis White.

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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 2: Your tradition is I'm a feminist. Bus the game that

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Speaker 2: everybody loves to play, to play, loves to play, and

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Speaker 2: you're already gone. I'm a feminist. But in the substance,

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Speaker 2: I would have loved the sub I would have just listened.

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Speaker 3: At the beginning, in the first ten minutes of the film,

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Speaker 3: I was googling, can I get the substance? But obviously no,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't look that fun because you don't get to experience. Also,

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Speaker 3: you do get to be yourself. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: be some starlet doing an aerobic show. I want to be me,

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Speaker 3: but just looking as glamorous as possible.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is what we all want, and this is

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Speaker 2: the natural tension between you know, as you always point

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Speaker 2: out in The Guilty Feminist, there's that tension inherent in

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Speaker 2: so many of.

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Speaker 3: Us because we've been raised to think that youth is

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Speaker 3: somehow better than age.

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Speaker 2: But it is still.

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Speaker 1: It's absurd, though, I feel like it is. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what?

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Speaker 3: I wonder how much people felt like that before advertising existed,

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Speaker 3: because imagine if you just lived in a village where

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Speaker 3: there was no photography, very few mirrors, and there was

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Speaker 3: no constant messaging that younger is better.

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Speaker 1: When they started selling.

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Speaker 3: Youth to us, anything that they want to say, they

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Speaker 3: constantly selling you you want to buy, so you know,

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Speaker 3: we just getting here today. I would have gone past

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Speaker 3: umpty in billboards, bus stops telling me I'm worth it,

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Speaker 3: But the messaging within I'm worth it is Jennifer Aniston

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Speaker 3: who's just had her hair blow dried by someone who

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Speaker 3: charges five hundred dollars a blow dry, so you know,

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Speaker 3: and then also been photoshop So there's a there's a

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Speaker 3: there's a sense that I think we just have no

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Speaker 3: way of knowing how brainwashed we are because we've all

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Speaker 3: been born well after advertising really took hold. So we

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Speaker 3: just we'll never be able to unpick how much of

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Speaker 3: us aspiring for youth?

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Speaker 2: No is that how much is nature and how much

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Speaker 2: he's nurture.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think there's any way of knowing.

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Speaker 3: But what I will tell you is this, Sometimes when

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Speaker 3: I think about us all aspiring to look twenty one

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Speaker 3: the whole time, even though we wouldn't say that, there

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Speaker 3: is part of us going. My jawline used to be high,

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Speaker 3: My jawline used to be there. See how lovely and lovely.

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Speaker 1: And type that is now?

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Speaker 3: Obviously, when I look at myself in the mirror, I go, hmm,

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Speaker 3: it would look better if it were where it were

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Speaker 3: when I was twenty one, which is probably there. But

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Speaker 3: a twenty one year old twenty one year old is

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Speaker 3: an emotional fuck with Yeah, twenty one year old. Why

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Speaker 3: do I want the face of someone who doesn't know

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Speaker 3: that it's going to cause trouble if she kisses her

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Speaker 3: best friend's boyfriend? Why Why do I want the face

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Speaker 3: of someone who thinks she knows more than her own mother.

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Speaker 1: Why why do I want that face?

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Speaker 3: It is and it is a mystery because a woman, really,

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Speaker 3: I think a human being doesn't come into their own

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Speaker 3: until they've had quite a bit of autonomy. Why do

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Speaker 3: I want the face of somebody who is less clever,

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Speaker 3: somebody who is less emotionally involved, less knows herself less?

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Speaker 1: Well, I do have a question for the universe.

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Speaker 3: Why does confidence arrive just as college and is leaving

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Speaker 3: the building?

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Speaker 1: And my guess is this because you only need one

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Speaker 1: or the other.

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Speaker 3: And when you're eighteen, you don't have a lot of confidence,

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Speaker 3: or if you do, it's misplaced because you don't yet

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Speaker 3: have that self knowledge, you don't have any experience. So

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Speaker 3: I think the universe gives us either college or confidence.

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Speaker 3: And if you've got both, hey, and you're eighteen, you're

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Speaker 3: twenty five, whatever.

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Speaker 1: It must be a sweet you go for it.

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Speaker 2: There's a sweet spot for some. But it's the day

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Speaker 2: then they never converge.

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Speaker 3: It's the day you turned thirty four, and then the

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Speaker 3: day after that immediately if you enjoy your thirty fourth birthday,

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Speaker 3: it's literally the one day when you have both.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like those comedy actresses, the SNL actresses, it's

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Speaker 2: the Last Fuckable Day.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, that's incredible funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's incredibly funny.

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Speaker 2: But it isn't. It's an interesting thing because you know,

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Speaker 2: you talk about a twenty one year old and I

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Speaker 2: remember that being a very desolate part of my life

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Speaker 2: where you're looking for really yourself. Probably, yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: It's a time when you don't know which direction. You're

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Speaker 2: like an untethered compass, the compass that's broken. It's just

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Speaker 2: flipping around in every direction. So you might meet.

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Speaker 3: A man or a woman or somebody who you're you're thinking,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to follow this person. It might be a lover,

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Speaker 3: it might be a best friend. It might be someone

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Speaker 3: you have a crush on that doesn't know you're alive.

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Speaker 1: It might be a job offer.

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Speaker 3: It could be I've got to do a master's or

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Speaker 3: a you know, some kind of professional qualification, and that's

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Speaker 3: when I'm going to find myself. And what you keep

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Speaker 3: telling yourself is it'll be the next lover, or the

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Speaker 3: next project, or the next triple. I'll be a different

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Speaker 3: person if I cross Europe with a backpack. And we

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Speaker 3: keep telling ourselves that because we're thinking. But if I

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Speaker 3: complete this task like I'm in some video games, everything

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Speaker 3: will be all right. But actually it takes years of

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Speaker 3: experience and experimentation to find out who you are, what

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Speaker 3: you want, and you're always being shaped by the mistakes

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Speaker 3: along the way. Sometimes they can make you bolder, sometimes

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Speaker 3: they can make you more timid. Sometimes they can make

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Speaker 3: you more extroverted. Sometimes they can make you more introverted,

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Speaker 3: So that the mistakes and the successes along the way

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Speaker 3: shape who.

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Speaker 1: You arrive at.

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Speaker 3: You know and when you find yourself, and some people

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Speaker 3: never do. But if you do the work and you

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Speaker 3: get past and you're lucky enough to live in a

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Speaker 3: time and place where you have a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: emotional space.

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Speaker 2: Where were you at twenty one? Oh? God, were you

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Speaker 2: still in Brisbane? No, you'd fly in the coupe. Oh,

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Speaker 2: because people may not know that you're one of us,

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Speaker 2: one of us, one of that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was born in Brisbane.

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Speaker 3: I was raised on the Gold Coast most of it,

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Speaker 3: most of my time, and then I moved to Sydney

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Speaker 3: in my early twenties and then moved to London. But

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Speaker 3: I was a Jehovah's witness when I was between mid

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Speaker 3: teens and.

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Speaker 1: Mid twenties.

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Speaker 2: Can I tell you something. Yes, I was raised to

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Speaker 2: Jehovah's Oh my goodness, and when I was reading your book,

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Speaker 2: this remarkable book, by the way, and your story generally,

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Speaker 2: in some ways, it was like meeting myself.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: It's very rare in the media to meet another former Jehovah's.

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Speaker 3: Although what I will say is there is a disproportionate

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Speaker 3: number of very small religions, there's a disproportionate number of

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Speaker 3: extra hos witnesses in the public eye.

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Speaker 1: It can either crush you or make you rise.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like there are a lot of people

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Speaker 3: it's so hard to get out. It's so hard to

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Speaker 3: stay in, and it's so hard to get out. And

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Speaker 3: I think also, once you've knocked on the door of

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Speaker 3: some stranger in Sunday morning and said, with Sharon, you're.

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Speaker 1: Going to die horribly and arm again unless.

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Speaker 2: You take this magazine The secret to a journal life.

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Speaker 3: Stand up comedy says nothing like at least they've left

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Speaker 3: the house. That's what I think with a stand up

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Speaker 3: comedy audience, at least they've left the house. Can you

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Speaker 3: imagine knocking on someone's door or a Sunday morning and going

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Speaker 3: I've got some jokes, So I think I'm paid to

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Speaker 3: be here like this is a this is as nothing

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Speaker 3: to stand up on stage after you've done all of that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, wow, whereabouts were you?

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Speaker 2: So I'm also from Brisbane?

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Speaker 1: Oh wow?

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Speaker 2: And my dad was an elder good lord and my

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Speaker 2: brother was a ministerial servant. He's now a petitian on

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Speaker 2: the Gold Coast's what one club for.

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Speaker 1: Actually that he's a politician.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of people who are in the public

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Speaker 3: eyeho have some kind of profile or job in the

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Speaker 3: media or sports job, or singers who are Extrahovah's witness

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Speaker 3: It's really common.

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Speaker 2: And I am curious about I mean, I know you

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Speaker 2: speak about this also in your book, but how much

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Speaker 2: of having been cultified, yes, and freed yourself from that

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Speaker 2: led to you being a curious and critical thinker now

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Speaker 2: because your book Six Conversations We're scared to have, Yes,

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Speaker 2: nervous hands holding the conversations is very much a product

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Speaker 2: of someone who who learned to question early.

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Speaker 3: I think, yes, I think the thing for me about

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Speaker 3: the Jehovah's witnesses is because all your thoughts are thought

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Speaker 3: for you know what you think about everything? Yes, and

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Speaker 3: there's there's there are no, there's no free thinking alound,

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Speaker 3: So you couldn't say. And I tell this story about

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Speaker 3: someone called Sister Pamela who was in my congregation and

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Speaker 3: on a Sunday.

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Speaker 2: That's not a nun by the way, for people who

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Speaker 2: don't know witnesses. No, we would call it all each

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Speaker 2: other's sister. So you'd be sister Deborah, I'd be Sister

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Speaker 2: Kate exactly. And we will have been to district conventions together,

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Speaker 2: and yes, we would.

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Speaker 1: We would have been at a Lange Park.

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Speaker 3: We would have been we go to these big football

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Speaker 3: stadiums and you dress up because I got baptized at

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Speaker 3: lang Park.

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Speaker 2: Did you? Yes? And even at the time, I knew

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't right, because you know how sometimes the

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Speaker 2: maybe would come, they'd take the newspapers would come and

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Speaker 2: take photos of like the freaks, the subjects of freaks

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Speaker 2: getting baptized. I remember thinking, oh, I hope this isn't

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Speaker 2: in the paper. And none of the kids from school

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Speaker 2: see it's not the right way to approach a baptism,

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Speaker 2: is it. No?

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Speaker 1: No, absolutely, did you get baptized? I did?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was done in like more Wall

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Speaker 3: and bar somewhere like somewhere done in northern New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: But I was only sixteen, so I was a minor

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Speaker 3: and I don't think that should be allowed.

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Speaker 1: I think you need to be of age.

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Speaker 2: That's very interesting actually, because it's not like, for instance, Catholicism,

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Speaker 2: where there's a baby christening. It is supposed to be

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Speaker 2: when you're conscious, and you can make the choice about.

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Speaker 3: Increasing their baptizing them younger and young. Some of them

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Speaker 3: are getting baptized at nine and eleven years.

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Speaker 1: The reason it's.

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Speaker 3: Different from Catholicism, and you know, listen, there's a host

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Speaker 3: of problems with any extreme religion, any fundamentalist religion. But

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Speaker 3: the reason it's different is once you're baptized di a

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Speaker 3: Jehovah's witness, if you decide you want to leave or

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Speaker 3: you are thrown out. Essentially you're excommunicated because they decide

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Speaker 3: that you've sinned. They could just decide you've got a

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Speaker 3: Rebelli's attitude. You could have broken one of the rules

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Speaker 3: and they can decide you're not repentant enough. The elders

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Speaker 3: can make an announcement that sister Kati is no longer

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Speaker 3: one of Jehovah's witnesses in this congregation fellowship, and then

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Speaker 3: you're just fellowshiped, and then you are cut off from

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Speaker 3: your friends and family. And your family can I think,

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Speaker 3: speak to you about family things, but they can't socialize

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Speaker 3: with you. If you're under the roof too, yes, isn't it,

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Speaker 3: But it's not warm or welcoming though you'll be iced out.

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Speaker 3: But if you're not living with your family and you're

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Speaker 3: of age, they may not speak to you at all.

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Speaker 3: They may completely cut you out. And I think there

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Speaker 3: is an encouragement to do that lately, so lightly relaxed

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Speaker 3: the world. But that's I think because Norway made it.

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Speaker 3: I think Norway cut their tax exemptions off because they

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Speaker 3: said it was coerci of control. So often if the

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Speaker 3: tax situation changes, you see them making little concessions.

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Speaker 1: But now it's something like you can ring a.

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Speaker 3: Disfellowshipped family member and say please come to the meeting,

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Speaker 3: but and you can say hello, but if they burst

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Speaker 3: into and say I'm really struggling, you can't talk.

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Speaker 2: To them, which it's literally just worse.

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Speaker 3: It's more emotionally abusive to say hello, how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm not well, actually.

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Speaker 1: Bye bye, I mean just better rock ghosting me.

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Speaker 2: You know, also when you came to your family adopted,

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Speaker 2: that's right, yes, and that in what way has that

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Speaker 2: informed you? Do you think it's a really.

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Speaker 3: Interesting one adoption because I would have sworn it hadn't

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Speaker 3: affected me. But then you know, as you develop, if

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Speaker 3: you are doing network on yourself, you start to identify things.

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Speaker 3: And I somebody who else was adopted sent me a

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Speaker 3: lecture about adoption and addiction.

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Speaker 1: If you just look it up on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: There's a guy that he's an expert on adoption and addiction,

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Speaker 3: and he says that nearly all adopted children have ADHD,

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Speaker 3: and lots of them are addicted to something. Nearly all

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Speaker 3: of them addicted to sugar, and some of them addicted

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Speaker 3: to crack. And luckily for me, that would be sugar

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Speaker 3: over crack. Really lucky that I don't have an addictive

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Speaker 3: personality for booze or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm very, very very lucky like that.

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Speaker 3: But I've always had a sort of dopamine desire with sugar,

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Speaker 3: and I had no idea, and lots of people do.

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Speaker 3: It may not, it's not that I wouldn't have had

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Speaker 3: it otherwise maybe, but it's a really common thing in

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Speaker 3: adopted children. And I once worked with a Lebanese film

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Speaker 3: director and he just looked at me and he went,

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Speaker 3: how old were you when you were adopted? And I

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Speaker 3: was like, how did you know I was adopted? And

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Speaker 3: he just said how old were you? And I said,

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Speaker 3: I said, oh, ten days? And he said, and where

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Speaker 3: were you for that ten days? And I said, I

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Speaker 3: was just alone in the hospital, you know, in those

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Speaker 3: rows of cons that babies are in. And I said,

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Speaker 3: just whatever nurse was on shift would feed me on

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Speaker 3: a clock and otherwise I was just lying there. And

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Speaker 3: he went, that is why you like attention, and that

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Speaker 3: is why you like food.

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Speaker 1: Food.

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Speaker 3: Rude, accurate, probably like because actually a normal newborn, the

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Speaker 3: mother's going do you want a little bit more milk?

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Speaker 1: Or she's not, like, oh is she cold?

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Speaker 2: Is she?

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Speaker 3: But I was just lying there and waiting for the

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Speaker 3: milk to come. I guess, and I guess when the

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Speaker 3: milk comes, you learn very quickly drink all the milk

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Speaker 3: because you're outside the womb for the first time, so

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Speaker 3: you're learning what is life outside the womb like? And

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Speaker 3: they know with newborns, they can tell their own mother's

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Speaker 3: breast milk, because they can turn their head. If you

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Speaker 3: put drops of different breast milk out for them, they

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Speaker 3: go towards the one that's their mother's, and they are

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Speaker 3: expecting to hear be held by the person who's voice

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Speaker 3: they've been hearing. Yes, that's what they're expecting. And if

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Speaker 3: that isn't there, what you're learning for the first ten

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Speaker 3: days is outside, I'm on my own, and if milk comes, quickly,

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Speaker 3: drink all the milk. Don't leave any because you don't

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Speaker 3: know when it's going to come again. That's not to

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Speaker 3: say I'm sure I was hugged by the nurses and things.

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Speaker 3: But my father always used to tell the story of

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Speaker 3: I always knew I was adopted, and my parents always

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Speaker 3: made it this, you know, when you've got your stories

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Speaker 3: as kids, like.

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Speaker 1: Tell me the story of when you came to collect

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Speaker 1: me love story. It's love, the same story as told

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes I'd say, tell me the story of when

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Speaker 3: you know, And there's this whole rat exactly. There was

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Speaker 3: a whole ritual about you know. Dad was at work

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Speaker 3: and the phone lines were down because there'd been a storm,

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Speaker 3: so my mum had to send him a telegram, come now,

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Speaker 3: And his colleague at work said, when he got a telegram,

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Speaker 3: so unusual to get a telegram. His colleague said, have

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Speaker 3: you won the lottery? And he said, no, it's better

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Speaker 3: than that. And then he raced home, picked up my

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Speaker 3: mom and my sister and they raced to the to

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Speaker 3: the hospital, and they had to stop to get formula

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Speaker 3: and bottles and everything on the way because this was

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Speaker 3: just out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: Come now, yeah, and you know, and so on and

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Speaker 1: so on.

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Speaker 3: So this whole story was told, and my father always

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Speaker 3: used to say, and you were blue with the cold

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Speaker 3: and so thin, and.

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Speaker 1: Last time that happened, I'll tell you that for nothing.

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Speaker 1: You get home and you're like, great, I'm in a

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Speaker 1: safe I'm in a safe home now, you know. And

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Speaker 1: I think there are things like.

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Speaker 3: That that you you don't realize that affects you. Like

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Speaker 3: I always knew that story, my father saying, you were

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Speaker 3: in this really kind of old hospital gown that wasn't

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Speaker 3: it wasn't very nice, and they dressed me in these

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Speaker 3: clothes that presumably had been my sisters that, you know,

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Speaker 3: really nice baby clothes and took me away.

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Speaker 1: So I was very lucky.

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Speaker 3: I think you know to have that, because you know,

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Speaker 3: if someone doesn't come and claim you and say you're ours, yes,

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Speaker 3: then you know. But some babies of my generation went

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Speaker 3: orphanages and as newborns, and you can only imagine what

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Speaker 3: a horror show that would have been.

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Speaker 2: After this short break, Debris speaks about antl culture and

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00:19:10,605 --> 00:19:14,525
Speaker 2: reveals the emotional toll it can take when someone is

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Speaker 2: cast out given the trajectory of your life and the

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Speaker 2: work that you've created. To me, it goes a long

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Speaker 2: way to explain why you're quite fearless.

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Speaker 3: Do you think maybe maybe? I think how your nature

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Speaker 3: is nurtured exacerbates what was there. Anyway, So when I

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Speaker 3: see former Jehovah's witnesses, I notice because it is a

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Speaker 3: trauma when you leave an organization that won't let you.

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Speaker 3: You're not allowed to have any friends outside, and the

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Speaker 3: punishment for leaving, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, is shunning, which

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Speaker 3: means you end up with nobody. That is a trauma.

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Speaker 3: It's a trauma to be shunned. So one of the

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Speaker 3: things I talk about in my book is councel culture

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Speaker 3: is a form of shunning. And I don't believe you

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Speaker 3: can create a society that is compassionate. The compassionate society

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Speaker 3: progressives want using uncopassionate means. And so I look into

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Speaker 3: the neuroscience of what happens when you shun somebody.

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Speaker 1: It is a trauma. There is just no getting away

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Speaker 1: from that.

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Speaker 3: And it's a trauma for the people doing the shunning

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Speaker 3: because they have to turn off their empathy.

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Speaker 1: So it's a horrible thing shunning.

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Speaker 2: You said this thing that really made me laugh in

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Speaker 2: the book where you said, Coca Cola don't advertise by

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Speaker 2: saying fuck you if you drink pepsi, you asshole. That's right,

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00:20:39,845 --> 00:20:43,165
Speaker 2: that's right, which is so true. That doesn't change anybody's

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Speaker 2: mind or an extension of that their behavior exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's that screw it, screw you if you drink pepsi.

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Speaker 3: It's like, no one would say that because it's not persuasive.

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Speaker 3: And how how can we as progressive people be so

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Speaker 3: unskilled if we think the world is unequal, if we

396
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Speaker 3: think the world is unfair? Kind of how dare we

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Speaker 3: be so unskilled as to go online and insult people

398
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Speaker 3: and call them names or say you are not welcome here,

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Speaker 3: you go over to that other community because we don't

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Speaker 3: want you here.

401
00:21:13,845 --> 00:21:18,405
Speaker 2: Or because we're going to aspect of the ideology that

402
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Speaker 2: they may struggle with.

403
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Speaker 3: And you instead of persuading and asking questions and empathizing

404
00:21:25,365 --> 00:21:29,405
Speaker 3: and or and even there's different kinds of empathy. I

405
00:21:29,605 --> 00:21:33,365
Speaker 3: thought received wisdom is basically that social media makes us

406
00:21:33,405 --> 00:21:36,765
Speaker 3: less empathetic. Keyboard worries can't see someone's face, you write

407
00:21:36,805 --> 00:21:38,965
Speaker 3: something rude, or you get into an argument with them,

408
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Speaker 3: and it.

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Speaker 1: Makes you less empathetic.

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Speaker 3: But what I discovered in my research when I was

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Speaker 3: writing the book is that actually isn't true. What I'm

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Speaker 3: arguing is that every day social media makes us demands.

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Speaker 3: Social media demands that we become more and more empathetic

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Speaker 3: to fewer and fewer people.

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Speaker 1: And that is a culture.

416
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Speaker 3: So every day it says, the people on our team

417
00:22:04,045 --> 00:22:07,805
Speaker 3: who agree with us must be empathized with to the max,

418
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Speaker 3: must be must be solidarity, They must be defending, there

419
00:22:11,725 --> 00:22:15,925
Speaker 3: must be endorsing. But if you were outside this circle

420
00:22:15,965 --> 00:22:18,285
Speaker 3: in any way, outside this community in any way, or

421
00:22:18,325 --> 00:22:23,485
Speaker 3: you defer in any way, or you deviate in any way.

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Speaker 1: Then no empathy at all.

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Speaker 2: You're cast out.

424
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Speaker 1: And as a former Jehovah's witness, what does.

425
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Speaker 2: That remind you of yeah, dispellowship being right.

426
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Speaker 3: Do you remember when we were told the sheep like

427
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Speaker 3: ones or the Jehovah's witnesses.

428
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Speaker 2: Yes, the goods were the outsiders.

429
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Speaker 3: Yes, And if you don't know the New Testament, you

430
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Speaker 3: will be surprised to hear that being sheep is a

431
00:22:44,565 --> 00:22:48,445
Speaker 3: good thing. But Jesus said he's separating the sheep and

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Speaker 3: the goats. The sheep are the good ones that followed him,

433
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Speaker 3: and the goats were the bad guys who did their

434
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Speaker 3: own thing. And so we were always told that the

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00:22:54,965 --> 00:22:58,525
Speaker 3: Jehovah's witnesses were the sheep like ones. So we must

436
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Speaker 3: stand up for have solidarity. For if a sheep like

437
00:23:02,565 --> 00:23:06,725
Speaker 3: one didn't have any food because they were struggling financially,

438
00:23:06,845 --> 00:23:08,045
Speaker 3: you must bring them food.

439
00:23:08,485 --> 00:23:10,645
Speaker 1: You must look after the sheep like ones.

440
00:23:11,005 --> 00:23:13,885
Speaker 3: But if it was a goat like one, yes, they're

441
00:23:13,925 --> 00:23:18,285
Speaker 3: on their own, no empathy at all, and that that

442
00:23:18,445 --> 00:23:18,925
Speaker 3: is a cult.

443
00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:21,285
Speaker 1: It's like we must look after our own.

444
00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:23,445
Speaker 3: But if you were to look after someone who wasn't

445
00:23:23,445 --> 00:23:24,845
Speaker 3: a witness, it would only be so you could give

446
00:23:24,845 --> 00:23:27,205
Speaker 3: them a witness, do you know what I mean? So

447
00:23:27,245 --> 00:23:29,045
Speaker 3: you could take them something. If you were then also

448
00:23:29,085 --> 00:23:31,765
Speaker 3: take them and watch how to say see Jehovah's witnesses

449
00:23:31,765 --> 00:23:33,685
Speaker 3: are compassionate because we follow Jehovah.

450
00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:35,405
Speaker 1: You two should follow Jehovah. You can't just give you

451
00:23:35,445 --> 00:23:36,205
Speaker 1: a neighbor a cake.

452
00:23:36,325 --> 00:23:39,325
Speaker 2: But what you're talking about now, that doesn't even really

453
00:23:39,365 --> 00:23:41,805
Speaker 2: happen when people are trying to win people over to

454
00:23:41,885 --> 00:23:44,445
Speaker 2: their points of view, like they're not even coming to

455
00:23:44,485 --> 00:23:45,285
Speaker 2: someone with a cake.

456
00:23:45,645 --> 00:23:46,485
Speaker 1: No, there's no cakes.

457
00:23:46,645 --> 00:23:47,245
Speaker 2: Bludgeoning.

458
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:53,165
Speaker 3: Progressives have to get past thinking telling people off is

459
00:23:53,245 --> 00:23:57,125
Speaker 3: going to change anything, because when you tell someone off,

460
00:23:57,125 --> 00:23:59,245
Speaker 3: when you when you when you shout at someone, or

461
00:23:59,285 --> 00:24:02,645
Speaker 3: when you tell them that they should be ashamed, they're

462
00:24:02,685 --> 00:24:05,485
Speaker 3: a MiG dealer is activated and then our fight and

463
00:24:05,525 --> 00:24:08,565
Speaker 3: flight goes into effect. Now, the worst time to try

464
00:24:08,565 --> 00:24:11,405
Speaker 3: and teach someone thing or to change their mind is

465
00:24:11,405 --> 00:24:13,405
Speaker 3: when their fight or flight is activated. Is that their

466
00:24:13,445 --> 00:24:16,445
Speaker 3: brain which part of the brain is so the mid

467
00:24:16,445 --> 00:24:20,845
Speaker 3: dinner is specifically about danger, right, So when you're scolding someone,

468
00:24:20,845 --> 00:24:23,005
Speaker 3: when you're telling them off, they're a midila gets activated.

469
00:24:23,005 --> 00:24:24,925
Speaker 3: They want to fight or flee. They want to fade themselves,

470
00:24:24,965 --> 00:24:27,125
Speaker 3: so they want to run away, and that's not a

471
00:24:27,125 --> 00:24:29,805
Speaker 3: good time to learn anything. Have you if you are

472
00:24:29,805 --> 00:24:33,405
Speaker 3: trying to learn I don't know a TikTok dance, So

473
00:24:33,485 --> 00:24:35,325
Speaker 3: think about that just trying. Okay, got to learn this

474
00:24:35,365 --> 00:24:38,805
Speaker 3: TikTok dance for a fun thing at work, or your kid.

475
00:24:38,685 --> 00:24:39,685
Speaker 1: Wants you to do it or whatever.

476
00:24:40,205 --> 00:24:42,445
Speaker 3: Now Immediately, probably your anxiety goes up if you're not

477
00:24:42,485 --> 00:24:44,005
Speaker 3: a dancer, where you think, oh, I'm not going to

478
00:24:44,045 --> 00:24:44,605
Speaker 3: be very good at this.

479
00:24:44,605 --> 00:24:45,445
Speaker 1: I'm never going to learn the.

480
00:24:45,445 --> 00:24:49,805
Speaker 3: Steps right now, think about your best shot at learning

481
00:24:49,805 --> 00:24:51,765
Speaker 3: the steps of a TikTok dance. Is it going to

482
00:24:51,765 --> 00:24:53,885
Speaker 3: be if everyone's in a good mood, everyone's laughing together,

483
00:24:54,245 --> 00:24:57,045
Speaker 3: you're being encouraged, and the person's going that's it, You're

484
00:24:57,045 --> 00:24:59,165
Speaker 3: getting it, that's great, and you feel that let's try

485
00:24:59,205 --> 00:25:02,045
Speaker 3: it again, as opposed to someone going no, not left right,

486
00:25:02,205 --> 00:25:02,565
Speaker 3: Oh my.

487
00:25:02,485 --> 00:25:03,685
Speaker 1: God, I've told you this before.

488
00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:06,445
Speaker 3: Think about what happens to your brain and think about

489
00:25:06,445 --> 00:25:09,325
Speaker 3: how much less likely you are to understand what they're saying.

490
00:25:09,765 --> 00:25:13,445
Speaker 3: And that's just a sort of basic example of why

491
00:25:13,645 --> 00:25:18,165
Speaker 3: we need to be more skilled. Because you can't change

492
00:25:18,245 --> 00:25:19,365
Speaker 3: people's and MiG dialers.

493
00:25:19,365 --> 00:25:20,965
Speaker 1: You can only change their minds.

494
00:25:21,485 --> 00:25:26,685
Speaker 2: So when you had the idea and executed the six

495
00:25:26,805 --> 00:25:32,085
Speaker 2: conversations were scared to have? Yes, were you scared about

496
00:25:32,125 --> 00:25:36,165
Speaker 2: flagging some of these and your approach to them?

497
00:25:37,445 --> 00:25:39,765
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, I agree to do this book in

498
00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:43,445
Speaker 3: twenty twenty when I could see things were becoming more flammable.

499
00:25:43,965 --> 00:25:45,725
Speaker 3: By the time it came out in twenty twenty five,

500
00:25:45,765 --> 00:25:48,285
Speaker 3: I thought I never would have taken this on. So

501
00:25:48,365 --> 00:25:51,285
Speaker 3: much more flammable, I was like, And then I thought, no,

502
00:25:51,365 --> 00:25:54,765
Speaker 3: I can't not bring this book out because I've spent

503
00:25:54,805 --> 00:25:55,365
Speaker 3: the advance.

504
00:25:55,485 --> 00:25:59,525
Speaker 1: Kate, it's too late. I would like getting that back.

505
00:25:59,565 --> 00:26:01,925
Speaker 1: Good luck. So no, I thought, No. I thought, I

506
00:26:01,965 --> 00:26:04,405
Speaker 1: have to be brave and I have to say what

507
00:26:04,525 --> 00:26:04,805
Speaker 1: I think.

508
00:26:04,845 --> 00:26:07,565
Speaker 2: And so the conversations we've touched on cancel culture.

509
00:26:07,805 --> 00:26:09,605
Speaker 3: So the first one is about why we can't have

510
00:26:09,685 --> 00:26:13,325
Speaker 3: conversations anymore, like what's happened to divide us? Yes, why

511
00:26:13,405 --> 00:26:15,885
Speaker 3: we desperately need each other and we really really do,

512
00:26:16,205 --> 00:26:20,285
Speaker 3: Like I think, what we have to understand is that

513
00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:23,845
Speaker 3: community is what makes us human. We would not be

514
00:26:24,005 --> 00:26:26,245
Speaker 3: the top of the food chain and.

515
00:26:26,245 --> 00:26:26,965
Speaker 1: Running the world.

516
00:26:27,125 --> 00:26:30,285
Speaker 3: Arguably we shouldn't because we're destroying the earth, But human

517
00:26:30,325 --> 00:26:31,845
Speaker 3: beings would not be the top of the food chain,

518
00:26:31,845 --> 00:26:33,365
Speaker 3: in the top of the top.

519
00:26:33,285 --> 00:26:36,005
Speaker 1: Running the world if it were not for community.

520
00:26:36,125 --> 00:26:41,005
Speaker 3: Because one human cannot be to line in a fight, Yes,

521
00:26:41,045 --> 00:26:42,685
Speaker 3: but six people can out smarter lion.

522
00:26:42,765 --> 00:26:45,965
Speaker 1: Look at us. We don't have shells, we don't have scales,

523
00:26:46,085 --> 00:26:48,605
Speaker 1: we don't have claws, we don't have venom. We are

524
00:26:48,645 --> 00:26:49,285
Speaker 1: a soft speech.

525
00:26:49,285 --> 00:26:52,725
Speaker 3: We've got venom, but if it comes to you in

526
00:26:52,805 --> 00:26:55,445
Speaker 3: a stake and a fight, you will not win. So

527
00:26:56,165 --> 00:27:01,405
Speaker 3: the reason that we soft, not very fast creatures can

528
00:27:01,805 --> 00:27:04,645
Speaker 3: run the world is because we were clever enough to

529
00:27:04,685 --> 00:27:09,125
Speaker 3: team up. So society is the reason that we are

530
00:27:09,525 --> 00:27:12,485
Speaker 3: good survivors. Number one, that's how much we need each other.

531
00:27:12,565 --> 00:27:16,245
Speaker 3: Number two, it's what makes us fundamentally human. If you

532
00:27:16,285 --> 00:27:18,645
Speaker 3: are Tom Hanks stranded on a desert island, you need

533
00:27:18,645 --> 00:27:21,725
Speaker 3: to create a volleyball head friend to survive. You need

534
00:27:21,765 --> 00:27:24,765
Speaker 3: to talk to somebody or you will lose your mind.

535
00:27:25,365 --> 00:27:27,805
Speaker 3: The UN has declared longer than two weeks in solitary

536
00:27:27,845 --> 00:27:34,285
Speaker 3: confinement a torture. Because we desperately need community, and so

537
00:27:34,405 --> 00:27:36,805
Speaker 3: that's our starting place. That's why we are so keen

538
00:27:36,925 --> 00:27:39,085
Speaker 3: not to be expelled from our communities.

539
00:27:39,325 --> 00:27:40,045
Speaker 1: And we will.

540
00:27:39,885 --> 00:27:45,485
Speaker 3: Often online or in our real world, we will say

541
00:27:45,485 --> 00:27:47,965
Speaker 3: that we agree with something in order not to be

542
00:27:48,005 --> 00:27:50,805
Speaker 3: cut off that we do not agree with, and we

543
00:27:50,845 --> 00:27:53,885
Speaker 3: will just shove down our doubts or will tell someone

544
00:27:53,885 --> 00:27:56,285
Speaker 3: we're really close to, but we will not admit it.

545
00:27:56,365 --> 00:27:59,685
Speaker 3: Now that is unsustainable because eventually it's going to bubble

546
00:27:59,765 --> 00:28:03,005
Speaker 3: up and come out. So a lot of people approach,

547
00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:06,885
Speaker 3: you know, inflicting their ideas really on the world with

548
00:28:07,005 --> 00:28:07,685
Speaker 3: like weedkiller.

549
00:28:07,805 --> 00:28:10,365
Speaker 1: They're like, you're wrong, you're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong.

550
00:28:10,405 --> 00:28:14,405
Speaker 3: You're wrong, You're wrong, And actually we need to be

551
00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:18,605
Speaker 3: asking how have you come to this conclusion? And we

552
00:28:18,685 --> 00:28:24,405
Speaker 3: need to be reasoning and telling stories. And the progressives

553
00:28:24,445 --> 00:28:27,085
Speaker 3: are so good. We're on the progressive.

554
00:28:26,645 --> 00:28:28,245
Speaker 1: Side of things.

555
00:28:28,405 --> 00:28:31,005
Speaker 3: We have all the storytellers, we have all the TV writers,

556
00:28:31,405 --> 00:28:34,485
Speaker 3: the novelists, nearly all, not all, but nearly all the

557
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:38,565
Speaker 3: people who are really good at telling stories, painting pictures, conceiving.

558
00:28:38,725 --> 00:28:40,605
Speaker 3: You know, a movie with a sad ending that moves

559
00:28:40,645 --> 00:28:44,165
Speaker 3: you and makes you think differently about something, persuades you know,

560
00:28:44,405 --> 00:28:47,565
Speaker 3: you watch something could be as simple as and as

561
00:28:47,685 --> 00:28:51,605
Speaker 3: broad brushstrokes as dirty dancing. But that is essentially a

562
00:28:51,645 --> 00:28:53,685
Speaker 3: story about a young woman who could not access an

563
00:28:53,685 --> 00:28:56,285
Speaker 3: abortion and nearly died on the table.

564
00:28:56,885 --> 00:28:58,565
Speaker 1: That's what the center the story is.

565
00:28:58,685 --> 00:29:01,045
Speaker 3: We're very good at stories, but just not when we

566
00:29:01,085 --> 00:29:03,005
Speaker 3: are trying to convince other people.

567
00:29:03,045 --> 00:29:06,365
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, because it has almost and I think

568
00:29:06,365 --> 00:29:11,965
Speaker 2: that there's a great cynicism now amongst people because there's

569
00:29:11,965 --> 00:29:16,485
Speaker 2: a feeling that they've just been getting instead of being entertainment,

570
00:29:16,565 --> 00:29:21,965
Speaker 2: it's taken on some form of brainwashing, or that there's

571
00:29:22,005 --> 00:29:23,885
Speaker 2: only one way to think about things.

572
00:29:24,365 --> 00:29:27,085
Speaker 3: Well, I'm saying in the book, I really really hope

573
00:29:27,285 --> 00:29:30,005
Speaker 3: that my readers don't agree with everything I say, because

574
00:29:30,005 --> 00:29:30,765
Speaker 3: that would be weird.

575
00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:34,165
Speaker 1: Like everyone's a different person.

576
00:29:34,205 --> 00:29:38,085
Speaker 3: You've all had different life experiences, you've had different educations,

577
00:29:38,165 --> 00:29:41,725
Speaker 3: you've got different thought processes. So I hope when people

578
00:29:41,805 --> 00:29:45,565
Speaker 3: read Six Conversations, we're scared to have that. There are

579
00:29:45,645 --> 00:29:47,605
Speaker 3: things that where they go, oh, I hadn't thought of

580
00:29:47,645 --> 00:29:52,605
Speaker 3: it that way before. That's very interesting. Things where they go, oh, yeah,

581
00:29:52,645 --> 00:29:54,965
Speaker 3: I think that's won me over. But other things where

582
00:29:54,965 --> 00:29:57,845
Speaker 3: they go, I don't know about that, and I have

583
00:29:57,845 --> 00:29:59,885
Speaker 3: an argument with me in their head, and other things

584
00:29:59,885 --> 00:30:01,605
Speaker 3: where they go, no, that's definitely not.

585
00:30:01,685 --> 00:30:04,565
Speaker 2: Right, because that's a conversation.

586
00:30:04,805 --> 00:30:10,245
Speaker 3: All valid critical thinking is holding two ideas in your

587
00:30:10,285 --> 00:30:18,085
Speaker 3: head and debating them, and there are all across the internet,

588
00:30:18,125 --> 00:30:20,805
Speaker 3: all across the world now, people fixed in one way

589
00:30:20,845 --> 00:30:24,925
Speaker 3: of thinking of things. And sometimes when I've been doing

590
00:30:24,965 --> 00:30:28,165
Speaker 3: live events, I have seen people, when certain subjects have

591
00:30:28,205 --> 00:30:31,445
Speaker 3: come up that I'm discussing in this book, put a

592
00:30:31,485 --> 00:30:33,765
Speaker 3: woman put her sunglasses on, like, I will not.

593
00:30:33,885 --> 00:30:36,725
Speaker 1: Even consider this, Oh what was it?

594
00:30:36,725 --> 00:30:39,765
Speaker 3: It was about trans writes right, which is a big

595
00:30:39,845 --> 00:30:43,005
Speaker 3: chapter in old chapter in this But I'm trying to

596
00:30:43,325 --> 00:30:47,445
Speaker 3: recreate a framework for thinking about it, and I'm trying

597
00:30:47,445 --> 00:30:49,165
Speaker 3: to come in at it from different angles.

598
00:30:49,245 --> 00:30:52,325
Speaker 1: Like I mean, my podcast has always been trans inclusive.

599
00:30:52,885 --> 00:30:54,645
Speaker 3: I think it's very difficult to be transcence well, I

600
00:30:54,685 --> 00:30:57,085
Speaker 3: think anecdotally it's obviously hard to be trans. If I

601
00:30:57,125 --> 00:31:00,805
Speaker 3: get on a bus late at night, a guy might go, oh,

602
00:31:00,845 --> 00:31:03,325
Speaker 3: but if you're trans, if you're visibly a transgender woman,

603
00:31:03,685 --> 00:31:05,325
Speaker 3: clearly that is a harder.

604
00:31:06,045 --> 00:31:07,925
Speaker 2: What's the man saying when you get on the bus

605
00:31:07,925 --> 00:31:11,925
Speaker 2: at not just you know, careful, Just like I didn't understand.

606
00:31:11,965 --> 00:31:14,285
Speaker 2: I thought maybe was no just you know.

607
00:31:14,765 --> 00:31:17,565
Speaker 3: I can see and I can feel from my transfriends,

608
00:31:17,645 --> 00:31:19,845
Speaker 3: it is hard to be trans in this world because

609
00:31:19,965 --> 00:31:20,685
Speaker 3: people are like.

610
00:31:20,845 --> 00:31:23,645
Speaker 1: I don't know, how to box you. I don't know

611
00:31:23,645 --> 00:31:24,285
Speaker 1: who you are.

612
00:31:24,205 --> 00:31:29,565
Speaker 3: So I think it's obviously hard to be trans. And

613
00:31:29,605 --> 00:31:32,325
Speaker 3: I didn't want to come with the same arguments i'd

614
00:31:32,365 --> 00:31:36,005
Speaker 3: heard made before. As Jehovah's witnesses, we were always told

615
00:31:36,085 --> 00:31:40,485
Speaker 3: if you hear ideas outside, you know, apostate ideas they

616
00:31:40,525 --> 00:31:42,485
Speaker 3: used to call it, you'll catch it.

617
00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:44,685
Speaker 1: You can't even look at it. You can't hear it,

618
00:31:44,805 --> 00:31:45,565
Speaker 1: or you'll catch it.

619
00:31:46,605 --> 00:31:50,805
Speaker 3: You won't catch someone else's ideas by hearing them.

620
00:31:50,885 --> 00:31:53,485
Speaker 1: You can hear them, you can consider them.

621
00:31:53,765 --> 00:31:56,405
Speaker 3: You can there's some really new frameworks for thinking about

622
00:31:56,405 --> 00:32:00,525
Speaker 3: transwrites in this book. You can read that and you

623
00:32:00,525 --> 00:32:06,165
Speaker 3: can think, hmm, okay, that's interesting. Okay, let me pick

624
00:32:06,165 --> 00:32:08,485
Speaker 3: holes in this one. You can do that with your

625
00:32:08,525 --> 00:32:11,885
Speaker 3: own thinking. You are not in danger of catching anything.

626
00:32:12,845 --> 00:32:15,045
Speaker 3: It could if you could just take the armor off.

627
00:32:16,005 --> 00:32:18,925
Speaker 3: Because what I want to do is invite people into

628
00:32:18,965 --> 00:32:23,365
Speaker 3: a conversation. I don't want to impose something on them

629
00:32:23,405 --> 00:32:25,765
Speaker 3: wholesale and say you've got to think about it like this,

630
00:32:26,005 --> 00:32:28,285
Speaker 3: or you're or you're a bad person.

631
00:32:28,845 --> 00:32:31,285
Speaker 1: And so this is my attempt to do that. In

632
00:32:31,325 --> 00:32:32,245
Speaker 1: this space.

633
00:32:35,805 --> 00:32:41,285
Speaker 2: Coming up, Debra shares her thoughts on gender nonconformity a

634
00:32:41,365 --> 00:32:45,685
Speaker 2: topic that's become one of the most polarizing in today's world.

635
00:32:47,525 --> 00:32:50,205
Speaker 2: I think a real way to change people's points of

636
00:32:50,285 --> 00:32:53,045
Speaker 2: view of things, And maybe it goes back to the

637
00:32:53,045 --> 00:32:56,885
Speaker 2: amigdala that you were talking about, is if people are laughing, yes,

638
00:32:57,485 --> 00:33:00,405
Speaker 2: they're receptive in a different.

639
00:33:00,165 --> 00:33:04,525
Speaker 3: Way, yes, And if you're not asking people to take

640
00:33:04,605 --> 00:33:08,885
Speaker 3: on wholesale views, but you're saying, here's here's a parallel,

641
00:33:08,925 --> 00:33:11,725
Speaker 3: here's an argument, here's a story, here's an idea, here's

642
00:33:11,725 --> 00:33:13,245
Speaker 3: a different way of looking at it. And that's what

643
00:33:13,285 --> 00:33:16,565
Speaker 3: I'm doing in the chapter about gender nonconformity. I'm looking

644
00:33:16,605 --> 00:33:20,605
Speaker 3: at a number of things. One is I went looking

645
00:33:21,125 --> 00:33:26,125
Speaker 3: in indigenous communities around the world for gender nonconformity and

646
00:33:26,205 --> 00:33:31,085
Speaker 3: fully expected that some Indigenous communities would have would have

647
00:33:31,205 --> 00:33:33,925
Speaker 3: had that as a way of life, and some would

648
00:33:33,965 --> 00:33:35,725
Speaker 3: have been frightened of the other.

649
00:33:35,925 --> 00:33:38,205
Speaker 1: And being like no, no, no, I couldn't find.

650
00:33:38,085 --> 00:33:43,165
Speaker 3: Any Indigenous communities that didn't have gender nonconformity as a norm,

651
00:33:43,285 --> 00:33:46,725
Speaker 3: as a sort of unremarkable norm. And that really I

652
00:33:46,765 --> 00:33:49,805
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, it's been there for many, many, many

653
00:33:50,045 --> 00:33:52,845
Speaker 3: thousands of years, and all through history you can find

654
00:33:52,885 --> 00:33:56,605
Speaker 3: gender non conforming people. In addition, I was looking at

655
00:33:56,605 --> 00:34:01,405
Speaker 3: the history of being adopted, of orphan rights and adoptees'

656
00:34:01,485 --> 00:34:03,765
Speaker 3: rights and trans rights, and I was looking at the

657
00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:06,845
Speaker 3: parallels of those things. And this is an argument that

658
00:34:06,885 --> 00:34:09,045
Speaker 3: a lot of people have said to me. Actually, this

659
00:34:09,085 --> 00:34:11,405
Speaker 3: did changed my mind. And I've had a lot of

660
00:34:11,405 --> 00:34:14,085
Speaker 3: people write to me and say, this is the one thing.

661
00:34:15,125 --> 00:34:17,805
Speaker 3: Even though was quite a famous man who has very

662
00:34:18,085 --> 00:34:19,845
Speaker 3: you know, he's very sure of his ideas, and he

663
00:34:19,885 --> 00:34:21,405
Speaker 3: said to me, this is the first thing that's made

664
00:34:21,445 --> 00:34:22,765
Speaker 3: me shift slightly on this.

665
00:34:23,325 --> 00:34:24,605
Speaker 1: As an adopted.

666
00:34:24,205 --> 00:34:28,245
Speaker 3: Child, I in any other generation before my own, would

667
00:34:28,245 --> 00:34:31,405
Speaker 3: have been an orphan right. So if you look at

668
00:34:31,445 --> 00:34:36,125
Speaker 3: someone like Jane eyre Yes Victorian, she was adopted, but

669
00:34:36,685 --> 00:34:40,605
Speaker 3: she had to call her guardian missus Reed. She didn't

670
00:34:40,845 --> 00:34:43,885
Speaker 3: call missus Reed mum no. And she wasn't allowed to

671
00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:47,685
Speaker 3: say this is my brother. She was the ward, the lucky,

672
00:34:48,085 --> 00:34:51,365
Speaker 3: privileged ward who was lucky enough to have been adopted,

673
00:34:51,405 --> 00:34:54,165
Speaker 3: even though she didn't deserve anything except the gutter.

674
00:34:54,725 --> 00:34:56,245
Speaker 1: And she was constantly reminded of that.

675
00:34:56,325 --> 00:34:59,565
Speaker 3: And when there was trouble in the family and they

676
00:34:59,605 --> 00:35:02,725
Speaker 3: decided that she wasn't she didn't deserve to be there, really,

677
00:35:02,765 --> 00:35:06,525
Speaker 3: because her adopted brother was being horrible to her, she

678
00:35:06,565 --> 00:35:09,125
Speaker 3: got sent to a really awful reformatory and was constantly

679
00:35:09,125 --> 00:35:12,365
Speaker 3: told you're an orphan, you should be grateful. Now, that

680
00:35:12,565 --> 00:35:18,205
Speaker 3: was just absolutely standard at that time. If I had

681
00:35:18,245 --> 00:35:21,245
Speaker 3: been adopted and my parents had said, this is our daughter, Deborah,

682
00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:24,885
Speaker 3: and I'd called them mom and dad, and anyone had

683
00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:26,485
Speaker 3: found out I was adopted, they would have thought my

684
00:35:26,525 --> 00:35:28,645
Speaker 3: parents were fantasists and liars.

685
00:35:28,685 --> 00:35:31,005
Speaker 1: They would have just wasn't acceptable to do that.

686
00:35:30,885 --> 00:35:32,605
Speaker 3: That would have been really weird, because you can't argue

687
00:35:32,605 --> 00:35:35,685
Speaker 3: with biology and biologically I am not my parents' daughter.

688
00:35:36,485 --> 00:35:40,565
Speaker 3: Now I am my mother's daughter. I am my parents' daughter,

689
00:35:40,645 --> 00:35:42,445
Speaker 3: because yes, you actually says I am.

690
00:35:42,885 --> 00:35:45,725
Speaker 2: And when you met your biological mother, you had far

691
00:35:45,845 --> 00:35:50,005
Speaker 2: more in common with your mother, your adopted I have

692
00:35:50,085 --> 00:35:50,485
Speaker 2: a lot.

693
00:35:50,365 --> 00:35:51,525
Speaker 1: In common with my mom.

694
00:35:51,845 --> 00:35:55,365
Speaker 3: But my I you know, I've loved getting to know

695
00:35:55,565 --> 00:36:01,805
Speaker 3: my biological family, and I look exactly like my biological mother.

696
00:36:02,045 --> 00:36:04,165
Speaker 1: How was that amazing? Amazing?

697
00:36:04,245 --> 00:36:08,005
Speaker 2: How long ago was that? That? You may years ago?

698
00:36:08,325 --> 00:36:12,445
Speaker 3: But I The interesting thing about that, though, is because

699
00:36:13,085 --> 00:36:17,885
Speaker 3: the laws allowed me to be holy my mother's daughter,

700
00:36:19,085 --> 00:36:23,045
Speaker 3: because the language allowed me to be holy my mother's daughter.

701
00:36:23,285 --> 00:36:25,965
Speaker 3: I was always My mother never said well, this is

702
00:36:26,045 --> 00:36:29,165
Speaker 3: my these are my children. She had two biological children

703
00:36:29,245 --> 00:36:32,165
Speaker 3: and me, and so you know, she never had to

704
00:36:32,165 --> 00:36:33,645
Speaker 3: say this is my son, this is my daughter, this

705
00:36:33,685 --> 00:36:35,245
Speaker 3: is my ward. I would have felt different all my

706
00:36:35,285 --> 00:36:38,605
Speaker 3: life I other I wouldn't have felt like a full child.

707
00:36:39,165 --> 00:36:44,685
Speaker 3: So because the laws, the language endorsed me being one

708
00:36:44,765 --> 00:36:48,965
Speaker 3: hundred percent theirs, I am my mother's daughter far more

709
00:36:48,965 --> 00:36:50,885
Speaker 3: than I am not. Now there's one significant way in

710
00:36:50,885 --> 00:36:53,565
Speaker 3: which I'm not. If she needs a kidney, I'm no help. Right,

711
00:36:54,125 --> 00:36:56,845
Speaker 3: So it's not that we ignore that I'm adopted, and

712
00:36:56,845 --> 00:36:59,645
Speaker 3: adopted children do have some different needs, as we've discussed.

713
00:37:00,765 --> 00:37:04,245
Speaker 3: But it is more, far more true to say that

714
00:37:04,245 --> 00:37:07,045
Speaker 3: I'm my mother's daughter than it is to say that

715
00:37:07,085 --> 00:37:09,445
Speaker 3: I'm not. And people can say that I'm not but

716
00:37:09,485 --> 00:37:13,005
Speaker 3: I am. It doesn't change anything. And I think the

717
00:37:14,045 --> 00:37:18,565
Speaker 3: parallels with transgender people are really obvious there that if

718
00:37:18,605 --> 00:37:20,485
Speaker 3: you constantly say, but you're a.

719
00:37:20,365 --> 00:37:21,805
Speaker 1: Man, but you're a man. But you're a man, but

720
00:37:21,845 --> 00:37:22,725
Speaker 1: you're a man.

721
00:37:23,445 --> 00:37:25,285
Speaker 3: Like people kept saying to me, but you're not your

722
00:37:25,285 --> 00:37:27,005
Speaker 3: mother's daughter, you're an orphan, you're an orphan.

723
00:37:27,005 --> 00:37:27,565
Speaker 1: You're an orphan.

724
00:37:27,565 --> 00:37:29,725
Speaker 3: There would be a certain structural violence in that that

725
00:37:29,765 --> 00:37:31,645
Speaker 3: would It would get to me, it would undermine me.

726
00:37:31,685 --> 00:37:34,685
Speaker 3: It would ultimately have really changed my self esteem and

727
00:37:34,685 --> 00:37:38,325
Speaker 3: my possibilities in life, and also how my school saw me,

728
00:37:38,685 --> 00:37:41,565
Speaker 3: and also how the wider world saw me and treated me.

729
00:37:42,325 --> 00:37:45,285
Speaker 3: And we should not treat orphans as if they're any different.

730
00:37:45,605 --> 00:37:48,885
Speaker 3: Of course we shouldn't, but orphans were escape go to

731
00:37:49,365 --> 00:37:52,925
Speaker 3: I mean before I was adopted, you know, some decades

732
00:37:52,965 --> 00:37:56,725
Speaker 3: before I was adopted, people were told, do not adopt

733
00:37:56,765 --> 00:37:59,965
Speaker 3: an orphan. They will corrupt your biological children. There's something

734
00:38:00,005 --> 00:38:05,285
Speaker 3: inherently wrong with them. They're likely to have conditions, mental conditions,

735
00:38:05,325 --> 00:38:09,685
Speaker 3: be morally corrupt. They'll probably be immoral like they're but

736
00:38:09,805 --> 00:38:12,725
Speaker 3: birth mothers. They're probably borne out of wedlock. They could

737
00:38:12,805 --> 00:38:16,045
Speaker 3: be criminal. Everyone was told that, like there were there

738
00:38:16,165 --> 00:38:18,765
Speaker 3: was a massive other thing that went on. Seventy percent

739
00:38:19,325 --> 00:38:22,925
Speaker 3: of the UK criminal population were orphans.

740
00:38:23,125 --> 00:38:24,045
Speaker 1: Oftans were while they.

741
00:38:24,085 --> 00:38:28,045
Speaker 3: Overrepresented in sex work, they were total scapegoats and within

742
00:38:28,085 --> 00:38:32,365
Speaker 3: a generation or two completely endorsed and able to be

743
00:38:32,405 --> 00:38:36,165
Speaker 3: adopted and just seen as regular kids with no big deal.

744
00:38:36,765 --> 00:38:40,925
Speaker 3: That changed my possibilities, my self esteem. That changed my map,

745
00:38:40,965 --> 00:38:44,205
Speaker 3: the map of my life. So I just want us

746
00:38:44,205 --> 00:38:47,165
Speaker 3: to think about that when we're thinking about transgender people,

747
00:38:47,165 --> 00:38:50,165
Speaker 3: They've always been transgender people throughout history. And that may

748
00:38:50,205 --> 00:38:52,845
Speaker 3: be not an argument that fully convinces you, but it

749
00:38:52,885 --> 00:38:55,725
Speaker 3: may make you reframe it a bit and go, Okay,

750
00:38:55,845 --> 00:38:58,405
Speaker 3: I can see some value in this and so, and

751
00:38:58,485 --> 00:39:02,205
Speaker 3: I think there's a value in those conversations happening. And

752
00:39:02,245 --> 00:39:04,325
Speaker 3: that's why I've written a book, because I want to

753
00:39:04,765 --> 00:39:09,605
Speaker 3: start reasonable conversations where people can enter into a new

754
00:39:09,645 --> 00:39:11,405
Speaker 3: way and new framing of thinking about it.

755
00:39:11,645 --> 00:39:15,845
Speaker 2: So for people who want to perhaps embark honor one

756
00:39:15,885 --> 00:39:20,445
Speaker 2: of these tricky conversations, Yes, what suggestions.

757
00:39:19,845 --> 00:39:24,325
Speaker 3: Do you have, Well, there's various in the last chapter,

758
00:39:24,405 --> 00:39:28,485
Speaker 3: there are various ways of breaking it down. One thing

759
00:39:28,525 --> 00:39:33,165
Speaker 3: I suggest is thinking about a paradigm. Like, for example,

760
00:39:33,245 --> 00:39:35,925
Speaker 3: if you have a neighbor from a different culture and

761
00:39:36,005 --> 00:39:37,885
Speaker 3: you were having cup of tea with them and then

762
00:39:37,925 --> 00:39:40,965
Speaker 3: they said something you thought was not feminist, you wouldn't

763
00:39:41,005 --> 00:39:45,125
Speaker 3: say that's not feminist. You shouldn't say that because you

764
00:39:45,205 --> 00:39:47,485
Speaker 3: understand as a cultural divide and you understand that's not

765
00:39:47,645 --> 00:39:49,765
Speaker 3: very cool to kind of you know, but you might

766
00:39:49,885 --> 00:39:53,725
Speaker 3: over time ask some questions, have some kind of cultural exchange,

767
00:39:53,765 --> 00:39:55,685
Speaker 3: probably see some things more from their point of view.

768
00:39:55,685 --> 00:39:58,565
Speaker 3: Maybe you think, oh, actually they think this isn't very

769
00:39:58,645 --> 00:40:02,805
Speaker 3: empowered of me, and you might over time have those conversations,

770
00:40:02,805 --> 00:40:05,765
Speaker 3: but in a very respectful way. But now think about that.

771
00:40:05,805 --> 00:40:10,565
Speaker 3: If that's your mum saying something at Sunday lunch, Mum,

772
00:40:10,845 --> 00:40:18,685
Speaker 3: that's not feminists. But sometimes culture is geographic. Sometimes culture

773
00:40:18,765 --> 00:40:24,205
Speaker 3: is geography, and sometimes it's generational. So you understand this

774
00:40:24,245 --> 00:40:26,285
Speaker 3: person from a different culure because they're from a different country,

775
00:40:26,685 --> 00:40:29,645
Speaker 3: but your mum or your graham might be from a

776
00:40:29,645 --> 00:40:32,765
Speaker 3: different generation, and that is also a cultural divide.

777
00:40:32,925 --> 00:40:36,805
Speaker 2: Now that's often not respected, particularly by younger generation.

778
00:40:36,885 --> 00:40:41,165
Speaker 3: That is correct, young people talking to older queer people

779
00:40:41,165 --> 00:40:44,165
Speaker 3: actually BTQ plus people. It's like those people got us

780
00:40:44,165 --> 00:40:47,165
Speaker 3: through aids. Those people fought for You know, when I

781
00:40:47,205 --> 00:40:49,085
Speaker 3: was growing up in Queensland, where we both grew up,

782
00:40:49,165 --> 00:40:51,485
Speaker 3: it was illegal to be gay. So there's people who

783
00:40:51,565 --> 00:40:54,565
Speaker 3: fought for that, and there needs to be a respect

784
00:40:54,605 --> 00:40:57,005
Speaker 3: and a curiosity in openness. That doesn't mean that older

785
00:40:57,005 --> 00:41:00,805
Speaker 3: people should just go we've got it perfectly right, because

786
00:41:00,805 --> 00:41:05,085
Speaker 3: what you thought was radical when you were young, is

787
00:41:05,965 --> 00:41:09,205
Speaker 3: was not respected by your seniors either. So you can't

788
00:41:09,565 --> 00:41:13,365
Speaker 3: go radicals closed now what young people think is ridiculous.

789
00:41:13,725 --> 00:41:17,245
Speaker 3: So whether you're thinking about people a generation ahead or

790
00:41:17,245 --> 00:41:21,245
Speaker 3: a generation below, to realize that there needs to be

791
00:41:21,325 --> 00:41:27,725
Speaker 3: respect paid and curiosity engaged, and for conversations to be

792
00:41:27,765 --> 00:41:30,005
Speaker 3: respectful and dialogue to be open is a wonderful thing.

793
00:41:30,085 --> 00:41:33,245
Speaker 3: So just sometimes shifting your paradigm and thinking, instead of

794
00:41:33,245 --> 00:41:36,245
Speaker 3: biting my mum's head off, why don't I imagine she's

795
00:41:36,245 --> 00:41:39,925
Speaker 3: from a different culture, and then ask questions about what

796
00:41:40,005 --> 00:41:44,645
Speaker 3: was it like when you will live through a different culture, right,

797
00:41:44,685 --> 00:41:47,485
Speaker 3: because it's a temporal culture, it's not a geographical culture.

798
00:41:48,245 --> 00:41:54,525
Speaker 3: And then looking at history. So for example, we are

799
00:41:54,605 --> 00:41:57,925
Speaker 3: now in a state where if you are very pragmatic,

800
00:41:58,925 --> 00:42:02,005
Speaker 3: often radical people on the internet will say, no, you're

801
00:42:02,005 --> 00:42:02,805
Speaker 3: just compromising.

802
00:42:03,205 --> 00:42:04,485
Speaker 1: But if you are very.

803
00:42:06,365 --> 00:42:09,125
Speaker 3: Radical, often people will say, no, you're just you're making

804
00:42:09,125 --> 00:42:12,525
Speaker 3: things worse. So if we can look at examples for that,

805
00:42:12,645 --> 00:42:16,165
Speaker 3: like there was a movement in America when all the

806
00:42:16,205 --> 00:42:20,645
Speaker 3: politicians were ignoring aids and gay men particularly, but other

807
00:42:20,685 --> 00:42:23,565
Speaker 3: groups too were just dying of this terrible plague. The

808
00:42:23,605 --> 00:42:28,605
Speaker 3: most hideous way to die and there was a movement

809
00:42:28,725 --> 00:42:32,365
Speaker 3: to get more experimental drugs in play and to find

810
00:42:32,965 --> 00:42:38,405
Speaker 3: management system and or cure for HIV AIDS. And that

811
00:42:38,485 --> 00:42:41,205
Speaker 3: movement was made up both of people out the front

812
00:42:41,365 --> 00:42:46,005
Speaker 3: shouting with signs and the people inside those buildings persuading

813
00:42:46,285 --> 00:42:48,405
Speaker 3: and you know, talking to people, and the people in

814
00:42:48,445 --> 00:42:51,405
Speaker 3: the white coats, And it was made up across those

815
00:42:51,645 --> 00:42:54,005
Speaker 3: all of those lines. Did they disagree sometimes, of course,

816
00:42:54,325 --> 00:42:56,205
Speaker 3: But did they let it slow the movement down? Did

817
00:42:56,205 --> 00:42:58,405
Speaker 3: they let did they let it fracture the movement? Did

818
00:42:58,405 --> 00:42:59,765
Speaker 3: they make those arguments public?

819
00:42:59,845 --> 00:43:00,405
Speaker 1: No, they did not.

820
00:43:01,205 --> 00:43:05,285
Speaker 3: They just understood that the radicals needed to be radical,

821
00:43:05,325 --> 00:43:09,085
Speaker 3: the pragmatists needed to be more pragmatic. And so sometimes

822
00:43:09,365 --> 00:43:11,605
Speaker 3: radicals need to get more pragmatic and pragmatists need to

823
00:43:11,605 --> 00:43:12,325
Speaker 3: get more radical.

824
00:43:12,725 --> 00:43:15,365
Speaker 2: But you don't always have to call people out. No.

825
00:43:16,165 --> 00:43:18,405
Speaker 3: In fact, if you don't have the people out in

826
00:43:18,405 --> 00:43:20,525
Speaker 3: the front of the building shouting, the politicians will not

827
00:43:20,605 --> 00:43:23,125
Speaker 3: realize that people really care and do anything about it.

828
00:43:23,405 --> 00:43:24,365
Speaker 1: But if you don't have the.

829
00:43:24,285 --> 00:43:29,605
Speaker 3: People inside the building persuading and compromising and never get anywhere,

830
00:43:29,805 --> 00:43:31,965
Speaker 3: you always need both. And this was the case with

831
00:43:32,005 --> 00:43:35,885
Speaker 3: the suffragettes and the suffragists in the UK. The suffragists

832
00:43:35,925 --> 00:43:37,965
Speaker 3: were like, let's talk to the right people, let's influence,

833
00:43:38,045 --> 00:43:40,365
Speaker 3: let let's fill out the right paperwork. The suffragettes were like,

834
00:43:40,525 --> 00:43:41,885
Speaker 3: we've been doing that for generations.

835
00:43:41,965 --> 00:43:43,885
Speaker 1: We're doing that. They've been doing it for sixty years.

836
00:43:43,925 --> 00:43:46,125
Speaker 3: Before they got the vote, they said, we need to

837
00:43:46,165 --> 00:43:51,005
Speaker 3: start throwing bricks through windows and blowing stuff up, and

838
00:43:52,285 --> 00:43:55,445
Speaker 3: without either party we never would have got the vote.

839
00:43:55,485 --> 00:44:02,205
Speaker 3: We actually it actually created it created bookends of influence

840
00:44:02,285 --> 00:44:04,565
Speaker 3: that actually ultimately got it over the line. But they

841
00:44:04,645 --> 00:44:09,845
Speaker 3: understood they needed to come together sometimes and they well,

842
00:44:09,925 --> 00:44:14,765
Speaker 3: now if Emmeline Pankhurs retweeted medicine force it, everyone would

843
00:44:14,765 --> 00:44:17,525
Speaker 3: be like, I can't believe she's one of them now,

844
00:44:17,845 --> 00:44:21,405
Speaker 3: and we wouldn't allow it. And we need to rethink

845
00:44:21,445 --> 00:44:27,325
Speaker 3: that because if we want our world to not be

846
00:44:27,365 --> 00:44:31,845
Speaker 3: completely taken over by far right forces, which really could happen,

847
00:44:32,685 --> 00:44:37,125
Speaker 3: we need to start understanding that they are much more

848
00:44:37,125 --> 00:44:39,645
Speaker 3: pragmatic and strategic than we are, and we need to

849
00:44:39,685 --> 00:44:44,445
Speaker 3: start getting more strategic, brilliant, brilliant. But there's lots of

850
00:44:44,525 --> 00:44:47,325
Speaker 3: there's lots of suggestions in the book break down techniques

851
00:44:47,645 --> 00:44:51,925
Speaker 3: for talking to people and thinking about how we could

852
00:44:52,605 --> 00:44:55,085
Speaker 3: exercise us for critical thinking, for taking it right back

853
00:44:55,125 --> 00:44:56,525
Speaker 3: so that we're not just going I know what I

854
00:44:56,525 --> 00:45:00,085
Speaker 3: think about that, but pulling apart everything we think in

855
00:45:00,405 --> 00:45:03,885
Speaker 3: critically discussing with people who agree with us, discussing with

856
00:45:03,885 --> 00:45:07,725
Speaker 3: people who disagree with us, across the isle, all of

857
00:45:07,765 --> 00:45:10,365
Speaker 3: that is, in, all of that is it's really important.

858
00:45:10,765 --> 00:45:13,925
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you when when you're going to

859
00:45:13,965 --> 00:45:17,925
Speaker 2: into the fray of this. It's one thing for you

860
00:45:18,005 --> 00:45:20,845
Speaker 2: to do it, that's hard enough, but how is it

861
00:45:20,965 --> 00:45:24,805
Speaker 2: for you for the people who love you, like Tom, Yes,

862
00:45:25,205 --> 00:45:28,645
Speaker 2: your husband, how is he through the process.

863
00:45:29,045 --> 00:45:31,245
Speaker 1: He's really encouraged me. He's very proud of me.

864
00:45:31,845 --> 00:45:34,405
Speaker 3: I did a kind of right wing podcast to kind

865
00:45:34,405 --> 00:45:36,085
Speaker 3: of have a difficult conversation across.

866
00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:36,965
Speaker 1: The aisle, and I got a lot.

867
00:45:36,805 --> 00:45:40,485
Speaker 3: Of attacks from the they call it the Manisphere, which.

868
00:45:40,285 --> 00:45:43,285
Speaker 1: Is a.

869
00:45:43,645 --> 00:45:46,205
Speaker 3: Men that have been I think trained by Andrew Tait

870
00:45:46,325 --> 00:45:49,565
Speaker 3: or similar kinds of misogynistic podcast.

871
00:45:49,845 --> 00:45:52,045
Speaker 2: Is that the Trigonometry podcast?

872
00:45:52,165 --> 00:45:55,125
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I have had death threats from that.

873
00:45:55,205 --> 00:45:57,765
Speaker 2: So that's hard for him, isn't it. Yeah?

874
00:45:57,805 --> 00:46:00,725
Speaker 1: I mean it's been really it was really hard for him.

875
00:46:01,125 --> 00:46:02,965
Speaker 3: I mean some of them, some of the messages I

876
00:46:03,045 --> 00:46:06,365
Speaker 3: got were kind of so absurd they were funny in

877
00:46:06,405 --> 00:46:08,765
Speaker 3: a way. As a man came into my DMS and said,

878
00:46:09,765 --> 00:46:15,525
Speaker 3: so is it okay to quote it's a very aggressive sure, dear, Yes, okay,

879
00:46:15,645 --> 00:46:18,405
Speaker 3: So if you're if you're listening with the child in

880
00:46:18,445 --> 00:46:19,885
Speaker 3: the car, you might want to turn this down. But

881
00:46:20,285 --> 00:46:24,405
Speaker 3: a man came into my DMS and I could see

882
00:46:24,405 --> 00:46:26,565
Speaker 3: who he was, like, I could literally see I know

883
00:46:26,605 --> 00:46:28,845
Speaker 3: who he is and what he does for a living

884
00:46:28,845 --> 00:46:32,885
Speaker 3: and everything. And he said, I just heard you on trigonometry.

885
00:46:33,045 --> 00:46:40,085
Speaker 3: You are an ugly, stupid, dangerous, disingenuous cunt. You are

886
00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:44,765
Speaker 3: literally the downfall of the Western world. All I could

887
00:46:44,765 --> 00:46:48,205
Speaker 3: do is pray for you, praying hands emoji, and I

888
00:46:48,285 --> 00:46:48,845
Speaker 3: just went, oh my.

889
00:46:48,765 --> 00:46:50,925
Speaker 1: God, what would that pray be?

890
00:46:50,965 --> 00:46:55,285
Speaker 3: A beloved Lord, dear Lord, through the name of Jesus,

891
00:46:55,365 --> 00:46:58,925
Speaker 3: can I beseech you to bless this ugly, stupid, dangerous,

892
00:46:58,925 --> 00:47:00,605
Speaker 3: disingenuous cunt who was.

893
00:47:00,645 --> 00:47:02,325
Speaker 1: The dowbtfall of the Western world. I want to not

894
00:47:02,365 --> 00:47:03,045
Speaker 1: stop laughing.

895
00:47:03,445 --> 00:47:06,685
Speaker 3: But I actually screenshot that because mostly I just blocked

896
00:47:06,725 --> 00:47:10,765
Speaker 3: dele b because people say the worst that men say

897
00:47:10,765 --> 00:47:13,805
Speaker 3: the worst things, and occasionally one was.

898
00:47:13,885 --> 00:47:15,885
Speaker 1: Very very very very very occasional, and I.

899
00:47:15,925 --> 00:47:20,725
Speaker 3: Put this screenshot on my grid, and I actually made

900
00:47:21,485 --> 00:47:25,685
Speaker 3: the guy who wrote it a collaborator on it so

901
00:47:25,725 --> 00:47:28,005
Speaker 3: he could see that I'd posted it, and I kind

902
00:47:28,005 --> 00:47:29,685
Speaker 3: of wrote a funny post about because that's quite a

903
00:47:29,685 --> 00:47:32,885
Speaker 3: funny thing. But the thing that upset me was not that,

904
00:47:32,965 --> 00:47:35,285
Speaker 3: because that was se absurd. It was that lots of

905
00:47:35,285 --> 00:47:38,805
Speaker 3: people underneath were writing in support, but a couple of

906
00:47:39,205 --> 00:47:40,925
Speaker 3: guys were saying nasty things underneath.

907
00:47:40,965 --> 00:47:41,725
Speaker 1: I just deleted them.

908
00:47:41,765 --> 00:47:45,165
Speaker 3: But one man said every single thing that man said

909
00:47:45,245 --> 00:47:47,685
Speaker 3: was true, Like he was really extreme. It was like

910
00:47:48,085 --> 00:47:50,725
Speaker 3: every single word of what that man said was true.

911
00:47:51,285 --> 00:47:53,485
Speaker 3: And the guy who said that, because sometimes I look

912
00:47:53,525 --> 00:47:55,525
Speaker 3: through and I go most of them, I think they're

913
00:47:55,525 --> 00:47:57,605
Speaker 3: either bots or they just troll accounts because they have

914
00:47:58,085 --> 00:48:02,405
Speaker 3: their private accounts. There's no profile picture, they've made, no posts.

915
00:48:02,645 --> 00:48:05,485
Speaker 3: They're just there to say nasty things or their bots

916
00:48:05,565 --> 00:48:07,605
Speaker 3: or something, And it's like, how can you be upset

917
00:48:07,605 --> 00:48:07,885
Speaker 3: about that?

918
00:48:07,965 --> 00:48:12,045
Speaker 1: Really? But this guy was a family man.

919
00:48:13,405 --> 00:48:15,285
Speaker 3: And he had pictures of his you know when people

920
00:48:15,285 --> 00:48:20,005
Speaker 3: put up a little montage picture or collage of their baby,

921
00:48:20,085 --> 00:48:21,805
Speaker 3: and he said, this is my daughter, sweet sixteen. It

922
00:48:21,845 --> 00:48:24,445
Speaker 3: had baby pictures and stuff, and I love her so much,

923
00:48:24,445 --> 00:48:26,325
Speaker 3: and has says, sixteenth birthday, this is my son who's

924
00:48:26,325 --> 00:48:29,045
Speaker 3: going into high school. This is my beautiful wife. And

925
00:48:29,165 --> 00:48:30,525
Speaker 3: here we are in date night And there was a

926
00:48:30,525 --> 00:48:33,005
Speaker 3: picture of them at the Lion King and he had

927
00:48:33,045 --> 00:48:35,605
Speaker 3: all these kids and he was such a happy family man,

928
00:48:35,645 --> 00:48:39,125
Speaker 3: and I just went, oh, so it's not necessarily just

929
00:48:39,245 --> 00:48:43,365
Speaker 3: these guys who were there just there to kind of

930
00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:47,405
Speaker 3: deliberately shake someone up in a misotistic fashion, who's been

931
00:48:47,405 --> 00:48:50,285
Speaker 3: listening to too much Andrew Tate, this is a wholesome guy,

932
00:48:50,645 --> 00:48:53,765
Speaker 3: the family man next to you at the Lion King endorsing.

933
00:48:53,845 --> 00:48:55,485
Speaker 3: And I did, as I say, a normally block on

934
00:48:55,525 --> 00:48:57,765
Speaker 3: de Leek, but I did write to him because his

935
00:48:57,885 --> 00:49:02,125
Speaker 3: dms were open, and I just said, your beautiful collage

936
00:49:02,165 --> 00:49:05,565
Speaker 3: of your sixteen year old daughter, Imagine if a man

937
00:49:05,805 --> 00:49:08,245
Speaker 3: wrote to her that she was an ugly, stupid, dangerous

938
00:49:08,325 --> 00:49:11,605
Speaker 3: can't imagine that, and imagine a family man endorsing every

939
00:49:11,605 --> 00:49:13,685
Speaker 3: word of it. And I said, I want you to

940
00:49:13,845 --> 00:49:17,285
Speaker 3: read out these posts to your wife and your daughter,

941
00:49:17,925 --> 00:49:20,365
Speaker 3: and if you can't do that, you're ashamed. And if

942
00:49:20,405 --> 00:49:22,685
Speaker 3: you can do that, you need help. I said, I

943
00:49:22,765 --> 00:49:25,805
Speaker 3: really ask you, will you delete what you've written if

944
00:49:25,845 --> 00:49:29,565
Speaker 3: you're ashamed and not and not post like this to

945
00:49:29,605 --> 00:49:31,805
Speaker 3: women again? And can you teach your sons to be better?

946
00:49:31,805 --> 00:49:34,245
Speaker 3: Because he's got two sons, and then he did delete,

947
00:49:34,485 --> 00:49:38,765
Speaker 3: and I think sometimes just saying if I do ever reply,

948
00:49:38,845 --> 00:49:41,765
Speaker 3: which is very very rare, I'll say, could you read

949
00:49:41,885 --> 00:49:44,725
Speaker 3: this out, get a male therapist and read out what

950
00:49:44,765 --> 00:49:46,245
Speaker 3: you're writing to women and see if you can get

951
00:49:46,285 --> 00:49:47,525
Speaker 3: to the bottom of why you're doing it.

952
00:49:47,565 --> 00:49:48,645
Speaker 1: Because there's nothing to do with me.

953
00:49:49,165 --> 00:49:50,685
Speaker 3: I'm just going on a podcast and saying, Hey, I've

954
00:49:50,725 --> 00:49:52,845
Speaker 3: written a book, I'm thinking this way, I'm thinking this way.

955
00:49:53,925 --> 00:49:56,765
Speaker 3: And they did cut provocative clips where they would just

956
00:49:56,805 --> 00:49:59,685
Speaker 3: show my reaction and not show whatever that's their thing.

957
00:50:00,085 --> 00:50:03,525
Speaker 2: My question was, how is that for Tom? Not that

958
00:50:03,805 --> 00:50:06,605
Speaker 2: it's about but the person that loves you. It's often

959
00:50:06,765 --> 00:50:10,405
Speaker 2: harder for them to weakness the I mean that they lie.

960
00:50:10,485 --> 00:50:12,845
Speaker 1: He's used to me putting myself out there.

961
00:50:12,885 --> 00:50:14,925
Speaker 3: I think, to be fair, I've never had a lot

962
00:50:14,965 --> 00:50:17,245
Speaker 3: of trolling because I tend to stay in my lane

963
00:50:17,245 --> 00:50:20,045
Speaker 3: and I provide for my audience. I'm not a provocateur.

964
00:50:20,565 --> 00:50:23,045
Speaker 3: I never name anyone, so you don't see me going

965
00:50:23,085 --> 00:50:26,805
Speaker 3: on Twitter going Taylor Swift hasn't spoken up about this

966
00:50:26,965 --> 00:50:29,365
Speaker 3: or you know, I just don't see that. I just

967
00:50:29,445 --> 00:50:32,125
Speaker 3: don't do it. I don't name people. I don't shame people.

968
00:50:32,205 --> 00:50:34,925
Speaker 3: My whole book is about not naming, not shaming, not

969
00:50:35,045 --> 00:50:36,805
Speaker 3: you know, to build something, build a work you do

970
00:50:36,885 --> 00:50:39,005
Speaker 3: want to live in, rather than constantly having goes at

971
00:50:39,005 --> 00:50:41,365
Speaker 3: people because they're not you don't think they're saying the

972
00:50:41,405 --> 00:50:43,245
Speaker 3: right thing or doing the right thing. I am a

973
00:50:43,285 --> 00:50:46,885
Speaker 3: positive person. I am someone who's trying to build something connected.

974
00:50:47,405 --> 00:50:50,485
Speaker 3: I do not I do not participate in rage bait.

975
00:50:50,565 --> 00:50:53,245
Speaker 3: I do not participate in a rage economy. To me,

976
00:50:53,725 --> 00:50:57,165
Speaker 3: that only benefits the billionaires running these platforms. It is

977
00:50:57,245 --> 00:51:00,845
Speaker 3: not my way. So I don't get trolling. Even if

978
00:51:00,845 --> 00:51:03,565
Speaker 3: I do television, you might get one guy going, oh.

979
00:51:03,405 --> 00:51:04,885
Speaker 1: She's annoying or something, but that's fine.

980
00:51:04,885 --> 00:51:07,605
Speaker 2: You're on television, you know, it's that's what television is for.

981
00:51:09,485 --> 00:51:11,565
Speaker 3: A big deal, and they don't see anything particularly awful.

982
00:51:12,005 --> 00:51:15,165
Speaker 3: I have never in my life had death threats. I've

983
00:51:15,205 --> 00:51:17,485
Speaker 3: never in my life had had people telling me to

984
00:51:17,565 --> 00:51:19,445
Speaker 3: kill myself on a live stream so they can watch.

985
00:51:19,525 --> 00:51:21,845
Speaker 3: And is that how I because I did trigonometry, not

986
00:51:21,885 --> 00:51:25,445
Speaker 3: before trigonometry. Oh, I know, and that is that is

987
00:51:25,485 --> 00:51:29,125
Speaker 3: that that is their audience, and you know that is

988
00:51:29,365 --> 00:51:30,685
Speaker 3: that is I've never had it before.

989
00:51:30,765 --> 00:51:33,045
Speaker 1: I had it for a brief period. They were very specific.

990
00:51:33,085 --> 00:51:35,685
Speaker 3: They were almost always saying it was because they'd heard

991
00:51:35,685 --> 00:51:36,845
Speaker 3: trigonometry or watched.

992
00:51:36,645 --> 00:51:38,445
Speaker 1: It and that is their choice.

993
00:51:38,525 --> 00:51:41,365
Speaker 3: And I have other big profile podcasts coming up, so

994
00:51:41,445 --> 00:51:42,205
Speaker 3: I may get some of that.

995
00:51:42,245 --> 00:51:42,525
Speaker 1: Again.

996
00:51:42,565 --> 00:51:44,285
Speaker 3: Most of the time, I'm just I see it as

997
00:51:44,285 --> 00:51:47,125
Speaker 3: a curiosity. I'm sort of like, Wow, they must be

998
00:51:47,205 --> 00:51:51,525
Speaker 3: very unhappy, that is I but it worries me about

999
00:51:51,525 --> 00:51:54,005
Speaker 3: the world girls are growing up into. It worries me

1000
00:51:54,085 --> 00:51:57,085
Speaker 3: very much the manosphere that because that violence has to

1001
00:51:57,085 --> 00:51:59,365
Speaker 3: go somewhere, as the violent talk has to go somewhere.

1002
00:51:59,445 --> 00:52:02,205
Speaker 3: And we are still in a situation where far too

1003
00:52:02,285 --> 00:52:06,485
Speaker 3: many women and girls are being killed by men. And

1004
00:52:06,765 --> 00:52:09,085
Speaker 3: hashtag not all men. Most men will never hurt anybody.

1005
00:52:09,645 --> 00:52:10,725
Speaker 3: And I think that's what we need to.

1006
00:52:10,725 --> 00:52:14,405
Speaker 1: Be very clear about. It is not all men. It

1007
00:52:14,485 --> 00:52:15,445
Speaker 1: is not all men.

1008
00:52:16,445 --> 00:52:18,605
Speaker 3: But women know that like one hundred percent of the

1009
00:52:18,685 --> 00:52:20,925
Speaker 3: men that I've been with have not killed me. You know,

1010
00:52:21,365 --> 00:52:24,085
Speaker 3: I doesn't mean they haven't killed anyone, but they haven't

1011
00:52:24,165 --> 00:52:25,325
Speaker 3: killed me, And ah.

1012
00:52:25,485 --> 00:52:27,765
Speaker 1: You know, we know it's not all men.

1013
00:52:28,165 --> 00:52:31,245
Speaker 3: What we need is for the men who it isn't

1014
00:52:31,525 --> 00:52:35,685
Speaker 3: to tell the men who it is, because what we

1015
00:52:35,925 --> 00:52:40,445
Speaker 3: know for a fact is that the men who do

1016
00:52:40,565 --> 00:52:42,925
Speaker 3: hurt women or want to hurt women. If they're in

1017
00:52:42,965 --> 00:52:46,845
Speaker 3: a comedy club and there is somebody doing jokes about

1018
00:52:47,125 --> 00:52:50,965
Speaker 3: hurting women, when the whole audience laughs out of shock value,

1019
00:52:51,005 --> 00:52:52,445
Speaker 3: out of like, we can't believe it said that it's

1020
00:52:52,485 --> 00:52:55,605
Speaker 3: so edgy, even though they would never hurt anybody. The

1021
00:52:55,805 --> 00:52:59,285
Speaker 3: couple of guys in there who would hear that laugh

1022
00:52:59,285 --> 00:53:02,445
Speaker 3: as an endorsement because they genuinely do think all men

1023
00:53:02,725 --> 00:53:04,605
Speaker 3: do or want to but aren't man enough.

1024
00:53:04,765 --> 00:53:05,565
Speaker 1: That's what they think.

1025
00:53:05,965 --> 00:53:08,005
Speaker 3: And we know this for a fact because the people

1026
00:53:08,005 --> 00:53:10,925
Speaker 3: that try and rehabilitate those men genuinely think all men

1027
00:53:10,965 --> 00:53:13,085
Speaker 3: do it. So it's those men who need to know,

1028
00:53:13,165 --> 00:53:13,605
Speaker 3: not all men.

1029
00:53:13,605 --> 00:53:16,925
Speaker 2: That's why do you think there's a reluctance from men.

1030
00:53:17,325 --> 00:53:19,405
Speaker 2: I believe off in your strength is your weakness, And

1031
00:53:19,445 --> 00:53:24,365
Speaker 2: men do afford themselves like they're able to navigate relationships

1032
00:53:24,365 --> 00:53:29,445
Speaker 2: without poking too much in the dark corners. But no one,

1033
00:53:29,525 --> 00:53:30,885
Speaker 2: I'm not speak up No.

1034
00:53:30,765 --> 00:53:34,085
Speaker 3: One likes conflict, I think, and no one likes uncomfortable conversations.

1035
00:53:34,085 --> 00:53:35,045
Speaker 1: That's why I read the book.

1036
00:53:35,365 --> 00:53:38,205
Speaker 3: And if two guys and I think women and I

1037
00:53:38,245 --> 00:53:42,005
Speaker 3: don't know that. I think it's largely cultural and social.

1038
00:53:42,085 --> 00:53:45,085
Speaker 3: But if Sometimes my husband will go off and play

1039
00:53:45,125 --> 00:53:48,205
Speaker 3: pool with a friend for six hours and he'll come

1040
00:53:48,205 --> 00:53:51,445
Speaker 3: back and I'll go, how's John And he'll go great, yeah,

1041
00:53:51,445 --> 00:53:53,925
Speaker 3: I'll go how's the divorce And he'll go, oh.

1042
00:53:53,845 --> 00:53:55,285
Speaker 1: I don't know, it didn't come up. But I like, you,

1043
00:53:55,325 --> 00:53:57,445
Speaker 1: we're together for six hours, What did you talk about?

1044
00:53:57,645 --> 00:54:00,645
Speaker 3: And he'll go just pool And I'm like, no, pools,

1045
00:54:00,685 --> 00:54:01,845
Speaker 3: what you were doing? What you're talking about?

1046
00:54:01,845 --> 00:54:01,885
Speaker 2: It?

1047
00:54:01,965 --> 00:54:05,725
Speaker 1: We be like doctor Who and I'm like no. And meanwhile, I've.

1048
00:54:05,565 --> 00:54:08,045
Speaker 3: Had a coffee with Kathy for twenty minutes, and I

1049
00:54:08,045 --> 00:54:10,725
Speaker 3: know the exact state of the divorce. Has eyone moved

1050
00:54:10,765 --> 00:54:13,085
Speaker 3: on sexually? Are the children dealing with it?

1051
00:54:13,245 --> 00:54:13,325
Speaker 2: Like?

1052
00:54:13,365 --> 00:54:15,405
Speaker 1: I know the whole thing because we go straight there

1053
00:54:15,445 --> 00:54:16,245
Speaker 1: and we really what.

1054
00:54:16,405 --> 00:54:17,285
Speaker 2: In care she's using?

1055
00:54:17,405 --> 00:54:21,645
Speaker 3: Of course, And so I feel like I would love

1056
00:54:21,845 --> 00:54:25,725
Speaker 3: there to be more education for boys at school and men.

1057
00:54:25,765 --> 00:54:27,645
Speaker 3: One of my friends, Jina Martin, does this. She goes

1058
00:54:27,685 --> 00:54:30,805
Speaker 3: around with an organization in Australia. She's brilliant and she

1059
00:54:30,885 --> 00:54:33,165
Speaker 3: came on the Guilty Femis to talk about how hold

1060
00:54:33,205 --> 00:54:36,205
Speaker 3: space for conversations with teens to make them more emotionally

1061
00:54:36,285 --> 00:54:38,525
Speaker 3: literate and able to talk about these things, able to

1062
00:54:38,525 --> 00:54:42,365
Speaker 3: talk about loneliness, able to talk about inner conflict, fears,

1063
00:54:42,565 --> 00:54:44,245
Speaker 3: all of those things, because the more we can talk

1064
00:54:44,245 --> 00:54:45,045
Speaker 3: about it, the better.

1065
00:54:45,085 --> 00:54:47,285
Speaker 1: And I want that for men because.

1066
00:54:47,005 --> 00:54:49,005
Speaker 3: I love men that I have men in my life

1067
00:54:49,325 --> 00:54:52,205
Speaker 3: who I adore, and I even I can hold empathy

1068
00:54:52,245 --> 00:54:54,365
Speaker 3: for the men who wrote horrible things to me, because

1069
00:54:54,405 --> 00:54:57,885
Speaker 3: I'm like, something's making you unhappy. Because I see people

1070
00:54:57,885 --> 00:54:59,805
Speaker 3: on the Internet all the time I disagree with I

1071
00:54:59,845 --> 00:55:01,965
Speaker 3: see people on TV I don't like. I would never

1072
00:55:02,045 --> 00:55:04,965
Speaker 3: think about what's what's their Instagram? Can I go into

1073
00:55:04,965 --> 00:55:07,565
Speaker 3: their dms and say something mean? I can't even imagine that.

1074
00:55:07,845 --> 00:55:11,045
Speaker 3: I cannot like someone not need them to know. I

1075
00:55:11,045 --> 00:55:14,325
Speaker 3: can disagree with someone and not need to write to them.

1076
00:55:14,565 --> 00:55:17,645
Speaker 1: And it fascinates me. And listen, women disagree.

1077
00:55:17,325 --> 00:55:21,125
Speaker 3: With me, but they write me strongly worded emails, very articulate,

1078
00:55:21,165 --> 00:55:22,165
Speaker 3: strongly worded emails.

1079
00:55:22,445 --> 00:55:24,845
Speaker 1: They don't write kill yourself on a live stream. They don't.

1080
00:55:25,405 --> 00:55:27,445
Speaker 3: I've never had that from a woman, And I think

1081
00:55:27,485 --> 00:55:31,445
Speaker 3: that's something about not being able to deconstruct your feelings,

1082
00:55:31,485 --> 00:55:32,325
Speaker 3: what's underneath?

1083
00:55:32,685 --> 00:55:34,245
Speaker 1: Yes, what's going on there for you?

1084
00:55:34,285 --> 00:55:36,805
Speaker 3: Because it cannot be about a woman expressing her opinion

1085
00:55:36,845 --> 00:55:37,965
Speaker 3: on a podcast and.

1086
00:55:37,885 --> 00:55:42,525
Speaker 2: That for some reason, you're tapping into this wellspring of rage,

1087
00:55:43,245 --> 00:55:46,925
Speaker 2: this impotent rage. Yes, and this is the outlet for ith.

1088
00:55:47,045 --> 00:55:49,645
Speaker 1: Yes, something's going on. I don't know what it is.

1089
00:55:49,885 --> 00:55:54,605
Speaker 3: Another book, yes, But also Laura Bates writes amazing stuff.

1090
00:55:54,845 --> 00:55:56,885
Speaker 3: She's got a book called Men Who Hate Women, and

1091
00:55:56,925 --> 00:56:00,325
Speaker 3: she's also got a new book about AI and the

1092
00:56:00,405 --> 00:56:03,645
Speaker 3: New Frontier for misogyny. And it's about like cyber robots,

1093
00:56:03,645 --> 00:56:06,285
Speaker 3: sex robots and stuff and it's deeply disturbing.

1094
00:56:06,325 --> 00:56:08,125
Speaker 2: But you should all read it. Everyone should read it.

1095
00:56:08,365 --> 00:56:09,765
Speaker 2: So we want to be just.

1096
00:56:10,245 --> 00:56:11,805
Speaker 1: We have to know, we have to know. Well, if

1097
00:56:11,845 --> 00:56:14,125
Speaker 1: we're not disturbed by knowing about it, we'll be disturbed

1098
00:56:14,165 --> 00:56:14,565
Speaker 1: by living it.

1099
00:56:14,685 --> 00:56:16,405
Speaker 2: That's really scared of the robot.

1100
00:56:16,605 --> 00:56:18,445
Speaker 3: Have you heard this saying that's going around now? If

1101
00:56:18,485 --> 00:56:21,325
Speaker 3: you don't do politics, politics will do you. And that's

1102
00:56:21,525 --> 00:56:24,325
Speaker 3: unfortunately where we're at. We better read about it, get

1103
00:56:24,325 --> 00:56:27,565
Speaker 3: ahead of it, teach our sons have the conversation. Teach

1104
00:56:27,565 --> 00:56:30,125
Speaker 3: the young men in oallus and you know it's a

1105
00:56:30,125 --> 00:56:32,045
Speaker 3: two way street again, ask them what's going on and

1106
00:56:32,045 --> 00:56:34,645
Speaker 3: really listen, create space for them to tell you how

1107
00:56:34,685 --> 00:56:37,605
Speaker 3: they're feeling and hashtag not or boys. Some of them

1108
00:56:37,605 --> 00:56:40,685
Speaker 3: are doing amazing stuff and going forward. But if they are,

1109
00:56:40,805 --> 00:56:42,205
Speaker 3: you did you see adolescents the Netflix?

1110
00:56:42,245 --> 00:56:43,685
Speaker 2: Shay, Yes, this is.

1111
00:56:43,605 --> 00:56:46,165
Speaker 3: What's happening without And that's a brilliant example of a

1112
00:56:46,205 --> 00:56:48,445
Speaker 3: drama that can help us empathize for him as well,

1113
00:56:48,925 --> 00:56:54,165
Speaker 3: like we need to be coming to the table with kindness, openness, compassion,

1114
00:56:54,445 --> 00:57:00,245
Speaker 3: curiosity and holding space for Can I reveal this to you?

1115
00:57:00,245 --> 00:57:03,005
Speaker 3: Can you hold some empathy for that? And if you can,

1116
00:57:03,125 --> 00:57:05,045
Speaker 3: maybe there's a further conversation down the line. You do

1117
00:57:05,165 --> 00:57:07,405
Speaker 3: not have to take on all of my ideas wholesale,

1118
00:57:07,725 --> 00:57:09,445
Speaker 3: but I ask you to take off a little bit

1119
00:57:09,525 --> 00:57:12,365
Speaker 3: of armor and be open to them. You won't catch

1120
00:57:12,445 --> 00:57:14,285
Speaker 3: an attack of the goats like we were taught as

1121
00:57:14,325 --> 00:57:17,605
Speaker 3: the Jehovah's witnesses. You don't catch my ideas from reading

1122
00:57:17,685 --> 00:57:21,325
Speaker 3: them if you take off a bit of armor.

1123
00:57:21,125 --> 00:57:23,005
Speaker 1: And go, oh, that's interesting, that's interesting.

1124
00:57:23,045 --> 00:57:25,125
Speaker 3: That's interesting because I have to do it too to

1125
00:57:25,205 --> 00:57:28,245
Speaker 3: other people's ideas. I've got armor if you change your

1126
00:57:28,285 --> 00:57:30,845
Speaker 3: mind about oh God, all sorts of things while I

1127
00:57:30,885 --> 00:57:33,365
Speaker 3: was writing the book, but like a key one being,

1128
00:57:33,925 --> 00:57:36,085
Speaker 3: the Internet doesn't make us less empathetic. It makes us

1129
00:57:36,085 --> 00:57:39,925
Speaker 3: more empathetic, but just to fewer and fewer people. And

1130
00:57:40,005 --> 00:57:43,485
Speaker 3: so that's and also the way that I sometimes communicate

1131
00:57:43,965 --> 00:57:45,685
Speaker 3: I can. It's so easy for me to go in

1132
00:57:45,805 --> 00:57:48,445
Speaker 3: sometimes and get annoyed. I had I did a round

1133
00:57:48,445 --> 00:57:51,365
Speaker 3: table with Steven Bartlett, and it was with two women

1134
00:57:51,405 --> 00:57:54,485
Speaker 3: who say that they're feminist, but to me, a lot

1135
00:57:54,485 --> 00:57:56,525
Speaker 3: of their positions were not feminist.

1136
00:57:56,965 --> 00:58:00,565
Speaker 1: But I had to sit and listen, and.

1137
00:58:00,605 --> 00:58:03,325
Speaker 3: I wasn't always able to come back with my ideas

1138
00:58:03,365 --> 00:58:05,685
Speaker 3: because there was three of us plus Steven, and sometimes

1139
00:58:05,725 --> 00:58:08,165
Speaker 3: Stephen would guide it, you know, onto the next question.

1140
00:58:08,205 --> 00:58:10,885
Speaker 3: There was a limited time and things will get edited out,

1141
00:58:10,925 --> 00:58:14,325
Speaker 3: and I had to sit and go, I don't agree

1142
00:58:14,325 --> 00:58:16,325
Speaker 3: with you, but I'm going to try and ask you

1143
00:58:16,325 --> 00:58:19,685
Speaker 3: a question or present something this way. And of course

1144
00:58:19,845 --> 00:58:23,285
Speaker 3: ever since then, I've been lying, awake, going debating further.

1145
00:58:23,365 --> 00:58:24,885
Speaker 3: I could have said this, I should have said that,

1146
00:58:25,285 --> 00:58:27,765
Speaker 3: and I will put some of the further arguments on

1147
00:58:27,805 --> 00:58:30,805
Speaker 3: my Instagram because I think it's really important that women

1148
00:58:30,845 --> 00:58:36,365
Speaker 3: stand together at the moment and we create space for

1149
00:58:36,405 --> 00:58:40,005
Speaker 3: ourselves to come together, because if we are heading on

1150
00:58:40,085 --> 00:58:41,765
Speaker 3: a road to gilliad, like when you look at what's

1151
00:58:41,765 --> 00:58:45,885
Speaker 3: happening in America with women's rights being stripped away, with

1152
00:58:46,565 --> 00:58:51,085
Speaker 3: anybody's rights being stripped away. Who frankly, you know we're

1153
00:58:51,085 --> 00:58:53,445
Speaker 3: looking at you know what's happening with immigration there. There's

1154
00:58:53,565 --> 00:58:56,885
Speaker 3: just so many rights being stripped away. I'm very worried

1155
00:58:56,885 --> 00:59:00,405
Speaker 3: about the farm Right Party in the UK. I know

1156
00:59:00,485 --> 00:59:02,845
Speaker 3: you just had an election here and you steered away

1157
00:59:02,885 --> 00:59:06,405
Speaker 3: from that kind of thinking, which well done Australia was

1158
00:59:06,445 --> 00:59:10,005
Speaker 3: a great relief, but it's always bubbling underneath that fear

1159
00:59:10,005 --> 00:59:15,645
Speaker 3: of the other, fear of women, fear of fear of progress.

1160
00:59:15,765 --> 00:59:20,285
Speaker 2: And the people are generally disenfranchised as well because they've

1161
00:59:20,325 --> 00:59:22,845
Speaker 2: been let down really by every political past.

1162
00:59:22,805 --> 00:59:24,685
Speaker 3: And there's a big red button there they want to

1163
00:59:24,725 --> 00:59:26,805
Speaker 3: press out, and I think that's what reform is in

1164
00:59:26,845 --> 00:59:28,845
Speaker 3: the UK. It's a big red button that says here's

1165
00:59:28,885 --> 00:59:31,285
Speaker 3: an alternative, which is what happened with Brexit. Brexfit's made

1166
00:59:31,325 --> 00:59:34,845
Speaker 3: everybody poorer, Brexit has not given us anything that I

1167
00:59:34,885 --> 00:59:37,245
Speaker 3: can see. When you ask people who voted Leave, what

1168
00:59:37,285 --> 00:59:39,045
Speaker 3: one thing if you got from Brexit that you didn't

1169
00:59:39,045 --> 00:59:41,725
Speaker 3: have before, they can't name anything. Maybe someone will write

1170
00:59:41,725 --> 00:59:44,605
Speaker 3: in and say I can, but certainly I've asked people

1171
00:59:45,205 --> 00:59:47,725
Speaker 3: and they cannot say what they have got from it.

1172
00:59:47,925 --> 00:59:51,005
Speaker 3: But when we have lost so much money from our economies,

1173
00:59:51,045 --> 00:59:53,365
Speaker 3: so many opportunities, opportunities.

1174
00:59:53,765 --> 00:59:54,845
Speaker 1: But it was a big red button.

1175
00:59:54,885 --> 00:59:57,565
Speaker 3: It was like, I'm not happy and I understand that

1176
00:59:57,605 --> 01:00:00,965
Speaker 3: people are disenfranchised, and it's so easy then for them

1177
01:00:01,005 --> 01:00:03,485
Speaker 3: to just go whack a mole that.

1178
01:00:03,605 --> 01:00:05,885
Speaker 2: I'm unhappy about this, But I'll hit there.

1179
01:00:06,085 --> 01:00:10,765
Speaker 3: Exactly, and you know, I again, I want to create

1180
01:00:10,805 --> 01:00:13,325
Speaker 3: a better world so that people don't feel like that.

1181
01:00:13,565 --> 01:00:15,885
Speaker 3: I don't want to just other people and go you're

1182
01:00:15,925 --> 01:00:20,765
Speaker 3: a bad person, you're a good person. Stop it, You're

1183
01:00:20,805 --> 01:00:23,565
Speaker 3: a good person. Deborah Francis White, thank you.

1184
01:00:27,205 --> 01:00:30,405
Speaker 2: I'm full of respect for Deborah Francis White, and not

1185
01:00:31,005 --> 01:00:34,765
Speaker 2: necessarily because I agree with her on every topic, because

1186
01:00:34,845 --> 01:00:38,725
Speaker 2: quite frankly, who agrees with anyone on every topic. But

1187
01:00:38,925 --> 01:00:43,805
Speaker 2: I know it's not easy to speak with clarity about

1188
01:00:43,885 --> 01:00:49,525
Speaker 2: socially thorny topics and still holds space for other people's discomfort.

1189
01:00:49,845 --> 01:00:54,805
Speaker 2: But that's exactly what Deborah does. She asks questions, she

1190
01:00:54,925 --> 01:01:00,525
Speaker 2: makes room for the complicated bits, and most importantly, she

1191
01:01:00,725 --> 01:01:06,245
Speaker 2: keeps showing up to the conversation with humor and goodwill.

1192
01:01:06,365 --> 01:01:09,685
Speaker 2: The executive producer of No Filter is Naima Brown and

1193
01:01:09,725 --> 01:01:13,285
Speaker 2: the senior producer is bre Player. Audio production is by

1194
01:01:13,365 --> 01:01:18,125
Speaker 2: Jacob Brown and I am your humble host Kate Langbrook.

1195
01:01:18,965 --> 01:01:21,245
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to No Filter.