1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,341 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:16,741 Speaker 2: Mama and Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 3 00:00:16,822 --> 00:00:18,822 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:19,102 --> 00:00:21,901 Speaker 3: I think she's read let them. I reckon she read 5 00:00:21,902 --> 00:00:24,302 Speaker 3: her over the holidays, because I know that Oprah, who 6 00:00:24,342 --> 00:00:26,381 Speaker 3: I believe you know they're in a group. Chap Sure, 7 00:00:26,662 --> 00:00:30,142 Speaker 3: Oprah read it. Oprah loved it. I think she said Michelle, 8 00:00:30,222 --> 00:00:32,141 Speaker 3: not passive aggressively, but just said, I think you'd get 9 00:00:32,182 --> 00:00:32,702 Speaker 3: a lot out of this. 10 00:00:32,942 --> 00:00:34,302 Speaker 2: Yeah, let them have their party. 11 00:00:34,462 --> 00:00:36,581 Speaker 3: Yes, let them have their party, but let me not. 12 00:00:36,582 --> 00:00:42,862 Speaker 2: Come hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out loud. 13 00:00:42,902 --> 00:00:45,262 Speaker 2: It's what women are actually talking about. On Monday, the 14 00:00:45,302 --> 00:00:46,542 Speaker 2: twentieth of January. 15 00:00:46,782 --> 00:00:49,302 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mea Friedman. 16 00:00:49,102 --> 00:00:51,382 Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens, and we are in a new 17 00:00:51,422 --> 00:00:56,502 Speaker 3: studio today. We are making the pivot to video. 18 00:00:57,262 --> 00:00:57,502 Speaker 1: Yeah. 19 00:00:57,582 --> 00:00:59,662 Speaker 3: It makes her sound really up with the times. 20 00:00:59,662 --> 00:01:01,982 Speaker 1: And I just keep shouting, change is exciting. 21 00:01:02,422 --> 00:01:04,462 Speaker 3: She does because you know that Holly and I and 22 00:01:04,581 --> 00:01:08,021 Speaker 3: Nately resist change. We're not sure about it, but we 23 00:01:08,062 --> 00:01:09,902 Speaker 3: are in a new studio. We've got like a fancy 24 00:01:09,941 --> 00:01:10,782 Speaker 3: backdrop and everything. 25 00:01:10,862 --> 00:01:12,902 Speaker 1: This isn't actually going to be our final home. This 26 00:01:12,941 --> 00:01:15,222 Speaker 1: is our temporary studio while we build a new studio 27 00:01:15,702 --> 00:01:18,302 Speaker 1: for ourselves. We're actually borrowing in studio to sort of 28 00:01:18,342 --> 00:01:21,182 Speaker 1: get ready to go into our newstube. 29 00:01:21,262 --> 00:01:23,741 Speaker 2: It's really cool where we are. It's got like hand 30 00:01:23,742 --> 00:01:27,782 Speaker 2: and chairs, it's got like that. 31 00:01:27,902 --> 00:01:30,581 Speaker 3: The office fancy. So I'm going to make a complaint. 32 00:01:30,582 --> 00:01:34,862 Speaker 1: We fit right in anyway, There are some men around two. 33 00:01:35,222 --> 00:01:37,542 Speaker 3: There are also I should note if you follow us 34 00:01:37,582 --> 00:01:40,022 Speaker 3: on Instagram, if you don't, should our videos are going 35 00:01:40,022 --> 00:01:42,222 Speaker 3: to look slightly different. So give us your feedback. We 36 00:01:42,222 --> 00:01:44,262 Speaker 3: don't need to ask for it. They'll give it to us. Oh, 37 00:01:44,582 --> 00:01:45,581 Speaker 3: let us know what they think. 38 00:01:45,902 --> 00:01:47,342 Speaker 1: Indeed, they'll tell us. 39 00:01:47,862 --> 00:01:50,982 Speaker 2: Anyway, It's a massive news week this week, with a 40 00:01:51,062 --> 00:01:55,182 Speaker 2: tentative ceasefire coming into effecting Gaza Trump's inauguration in the 41 00:01:55,222 --> 00:01:57,702 Speaker 2: early hours of tomorrow morning, and as we're about to 42 00:01:57,782 --> 00:02:01,582 Speaker 2: jump into on today's show, many TikTok creators melting down 43 00:02:01,622 --> 00:02:04,062 Speaker 2: about what's going on with their platform in the US. 44 00:02:04,622 --> 00:02:07,662 Speaker 2: So is the TikTok band still in place? Might it 45 00:02:07,702 --> 00:02:10,822 Speaker 2: come here? And why does it matter? Also, I'm not 46 00:02:10,942 --> 00:02:14,501 Speaker 2: the only one having a year of nupe. Michelle Obama 47 00:02:14,542 --> 00:02:17,102 Speaker 2: has rejected her invite to the Trump Party, and we 48 00:02:17,181 --> 00:02:21,181 Speaker 2: think it's big. Letson Energy and Vanity Fair ran a 49 00:02:21,222 --> 00:02:24,022 Speaker 2: full blown cover story about Megan and Harry, along with 50 00:02:24,102 --> 00:02:27,782 Speaker 2: an eight thousand word piece We read it so you 51 00:02:27,822 --> 00:02:29,422 Speaker 2: don't have to let's go. 52 00:02:31,342 --> 00:02:34,622 Speaker 4: We want to hop on here and say goodbye to 53 00:02:34,702 --> 00:02:36,262 Speaker 4: all fourteen million of you guys. 54 00:02:36,582 --> 00:02:39,262 Speaker 5: It's just an app, but it's our whole life. 55 00:02:39,422 --> 00:02:42,022 Speaker 1: No, because anyone else just been crying on this app 56 00:02:42,022 --> 00:02:47,661 Speaker 1: all mate, because it feels like we're losing like community. 57 00:02:47,942 --> 00:02:49,702 Speaker 3: It's just like, why would they take this app from 58 00:02:49,702 --> 00:02:51,662 Speaker 3: the girls? Like if you wanted to take it, take 59 00:02:51,662 --> 00:02:53,462 Speaker 3: it from the boys, not the girls. 60 00:02:53,542 --> 00:02:54,342 Speaker 4: Not the girls. 61 00:02:54,462 --> 00:02:55,582 Speaker 3: I cannot stop crying. 62 00:02:55,702 --> 00:02:57,582 Speaker 2: It's emotional and it's sad. 63 00:02:58,062 --> 00:03:01,822 Speaker 1: I feel so sad. I wonder how you actually would 64 00:03:01,822 --> 00:03:03,742 Speaker 1: go about taking it away from just the boys. I 65 00:03:03,822 --> 00:03:05,742 Speaker 1: quite like that idea. It's a possible solution. 66 00:03:06,302 --> 00:03:10,062 Speaker 3: Late on Saturday, US time, TikTok users in a America 67 00:03:10,462 --> 00:03:13,422 Speaker 3: found their app had stopped working. This was a few 68 00:03:13,422 --> 00:03:15,982 Speaker 3: hours before a federal ban on the app was due 69 00:03:15,982 --> 00:03:19,902 Speaker 3: to take effect. So when they opened TikTok, as some 70 00:03:19,982 --> 00:03:22,502 Speaker 3: of them do every two to three minutes, they were 71 00:03:22,502 --> 00:03:26,222 Speaker 3: presented with the following message, Sorry, TikTok is an available 72 00:03:26,302 --> 00:03:29,022 Speaker 3: right now. A law banning TikTok has been enacted in 73 00:03:29,062 --> 00:03:33,542 Speaker 3: the US. Unfortunately, this means you can't use TikTok for now. 74 00:03:33,702 --> 00:03:36,702 Speaker 3: We are fortunate that President Trump has indicated that he 75 00:03:36,782 --> 00:03:39,462 Speaker 3: will work with us on a solution to reinstate TikTok 76 00:03:39,742 --> 00:03:43,862 Speaker 3: once he takes office. Please stay tuned because you wouldn't 77 00:03:43,862 --> 00:03:45,982 Speaker 3: want TikTok to be full of propaganda. 78 00:03:45,662 --> 00:03:46,062 Speaker 1: Would you. 79 00:03:46,102 --> 00:03:48,302 Speaker 2: No, not at all exactly. 80 00:03:48,902 --> 00:03:52,422 Speaker 3: Let's take forty five steps backwards because for years, lawmakers 81 00:03:52,422 --> 00:03:55,502 Speaker 3: in Congress in the US have been worried about TikTok's 82 00:03:55,582 --> 00:03:59,502 Speaker 3: Chinese ownership. This is for a lot of reasons. TikTok 83 00:03:59,622 --> 00:04:03,222 Speaker 3: is owned by the Chinese company Byteedance, and US officials 84 00:04:03,262 --> 00:04:06,142 Speaker 3: are worried that Chinese laws China is of course run 85 00:04:06,182 --> 00:04:09,422 Speaker 3: by the Chinese Communist Party, could compel them to share 86 00:04:09,582 --> 00:04:14,022 Speaker 3: information about their users sensitive data. They could monitor users, 87 00:04:14,142 --> 00:04:17,981 Speaker 3: They could influence public opinion or elections. It could be 88 00:04:18,062 --> 00:04:21,502 Speaker 3: used to gather intelligence on US citizens. So Jessee is. 89 00:04:21,541 --> 00:04:25,861 Speaker 1: The heart of this that because China is a communist country, 90 00:04:26,142 --> 00:04:29,821 Speaker 1: yep that Bite Downs is essentially controlled by the Chinese government. 91 00:04:29,981 --> 00:04:31,541 Speaker 1: Is that the subtext. 92 00:04:31,061 --> 00:04:34,101 Speaker 3: Correct and that we know that TikTok in terms of 93 00:04:34,142 --> 00:04:37,862 Speaker 3: their settings, they can get details about your location, your 94 00:04:37,902 --> 00:04:41,901 Speaker 3: browsing history. That's one element of it. The other element 95 00:04:41,941 --> 00:04:44,581 Speaker 3: of it is if it is run by the Chinese 96 00:04:44,621 --> 00:04:49,741 Speaker 3: Communist Party, then how about things like propaganda spreading misinformation? 97 00:04:50,301 --> 00:04:52,861 Speaker 3: They have control in that way, which the US has 98 00:04:52,902 --> 00:04:54,501 Speaker 3: been really really apprehensive about. 99 00:04:54,621 --> 00:04:59,101 Speaker 1: And the TikTok algorithm is widely acknowledged as a whole 100 00:04:59,142 --> 00:05:02,622 Speaker 1: other level from every other social media algorithm. So nobody 101 00:05:02,621 --> 00:05:05,861 Speaker 1: knows exactly how that works, and that is proprietary information 102 00:05:05,981 --> 00:05:07,782 Speaker 1: that a lot of people would like to get their 103 00:05:07,782 --> 00:05:08,262 Speaker 1: hands on. 104 00:05:09,582 --> 00:05:13,061 Speaker 3: Holders have said youth, mental health, economic concerns. Obviously, this 105 00:05:13,101 --> 00:05:16,222 Speaker 3: isn't a US owned company, so that worries them as well. 106 00:05:16,262 --> 00:05:19,701 Speaker 3: Whereas Twitter, a US owned blocking TikTok, we should also 107 00:05:19,741 --> 00:05:22,621 Speaker 3: say it wasn't going to be unprecedented. India has blocked 108 00:05:22,662 --> 00:05:25,941 Speaker 3: the app, as has Pakistan, and interestingly it has no 109 00:05:26,022 --> 00:05:29,222 Speaker 3: presence in China. You might remember, oh, yeah, they don't 110 00:05:29,301 --> 00:05:30,701 Speaker 3: use it there, they use different app. 111 00:05:30,702 --> 00:05:32,221 Speaker 1: That's worrying. 112 00:05:32,501 --> 00:05:34,501 Speaker 2: It is worry That's a bit like how the Silicon 113 00:05:34,582 --> 00:05:36,662 Speaker 2: Valley tech bros don't let their kids have phones. 114 00:05:36,861 --> 00:05:38,261 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're going to put this in the US. 115 00:05:38,262 --> 00:05:41,062 Speaker 3: We're going to spread misinformation, propaganda. We're going to turn 116 00:05:41,061 --> 00:05:43,501 Speaker 3: you all on each other and see what happens. 117 00:05:43,782 --> 00:05:46,022 Speaker 1: So an example of how it could be used I 118 00:05:46,061 --> 00:05:52,021 Speaker 1: was reading is so, for example, one country invades another country. Yeah, 119 00:05:52,181 --> 00:05:56,381 Speaker 1: suddenly your TikTok feed could be full of people in 120 00:05:56,421 --> 00:06:00,421 Speaker 1: the country that was being invaded very happy about the invasion, 121 00:06:00,541 --> 00:06:03,662 Speaker 1: and you could be led to believe, via an algorithm 122 00:06:04,022 --> 00:06:08,061 Speaker 1: and via propaganda, that maybe that invasion was actually very cool. 123 00:06:08,381 --> 00:06:11,622 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right. So you might remember all the way 124 00:06:11,662 --> 00:06:15,782 Speaker 3: back in twenty twenty, President Donald Trump signed executive orders 125 00:06:15,782 --> 00:06:18,741 Speaker 3: to ban TikTok. He said it was a national security risk. 126 00:06:19,301 --> 00:06:22,861 Speaker 3: They wanted to force TikTok to sell US operations to 127 00:06:22,902 --> 00:06:26,222 Speaker 3: an American company, So basically have an arm where the 128 00:06:26,262 --> 00:06:28,462 Speaker 3: American side gets to do its own thing, it's got 129 00:06:28,462 --> 00:06:31,701 Speaker 3: some independence. And Byte Dance said absolutely, we will not 130 00:06:31,741 --> 00:06:35,462 Speaker 3: do that. Then in April twenty twenty four, US Congress 131 00:06:35,501 --> 00:06:38,662 Speaker 3: passed a law saying either Byte Dance sells TikTok to 132 00:06:38,702 --> 00:06:41,662 Speaker 3: a non Chinese owner, or we're shutting you down. And 133 00:06:41,702 --> 00:06:45,381 Speaker 3: they chose the latter. So boom, one hundred and seventy 134 00:06:45,421 --> 00:06:49,342 Speaker 3: million Americans who use the app suddenly couldn't until they could. 135 00:06:49,582 --> 00:06:52,941 Speaker 3: Less than twenty four hours later, TikTok was restored. In 136 00:06:52,981 --> 00:06:57,541 Speaker 3: a statement, TikTok said, we thank President Trump for providing 137 00:06:57,541 --> 00:07:01,062 Speaker 3: the necessary clarity and assurance to our service providers. They 138 00:07:01,101 --> 00:07:05,621 Speaker 3: basically said, we don't want to penalize the Americans using it, 139 00:07:05,821 --> 00:07:09,742 Speaker 3: allowing over seven million small businesses to thrive. They and 140 00:07:09,941 --> 00:07:13,622 Speaker 3: for the First Amendment right and against arbitrary censorship. 141 00:07:14,022 --> 00:07:17,502 Speaker 1: Our business is thriving on TikTok. Small businesses I don't. 142 00:07:17,342 --> 00:07:19,822 Speaker 3: Know, some do when some came out. I've seen a 143 00:07:19,821 --> 00:07:22,662 Speaker 3: lot of business owners say that they've they've built their 144 00:07:22,662 --> 00:07:24,062 Speaker 3: businesses off the back of TikTok. 145 00:07:24,102 --> 00:07:25,662 Speaker 1: They did in ads made by TikTok. 146 00:07:25,982 --> 00:07:29,142 Speaker 2: Yeah, but think about the economic impact. Think of say 147 00:07:29,222 --> 00:07:34,182 Speaker 2: the tween's skincare craze right, almost entirely fed by TikTok. Right, 148 00:07:34,262 --> 00:07:37,702 Speaker 2: that has entirely changed the beauty industry. So imagine if you. 149 00:07:37,662 --> 00:07:41,102 Speaker 3: Take that out for some small business industry, like a 150 00:07:41,222 --> 00:07:45,342 Speaker 3: cupcake shop on the corner. If you could leverage you know, 151 00:07:45,462 --> 00:07:48,302 Speaker 3: TikTok properly, you can get your message out to a 152 00:07:48,302 --> 00:07:49,662 Speaker 3: lot of people in a very free way. 153 00:07:49,941 --> 00:07:53,462 Speaker 1: It's have you met an algorithm? And are you actually kidding? 154 00:07:53,902 --> 00:07:56,422 Speaker 1: What we know about TikTok is that it's different to 155 00:07:56,502 --> 00:08:00,302 Speaker 1: every other social media app in that followers don't really matter, 156 00:08:00,782 --> 00:08:04,142 Speaker 1: and there's also no real rhyme nor reason to what 157 00:08:04,342 --> 00:08:06,742 Speaker 1: goes viral. So I agree that, as you said, holy 158 00:08:06,862 --> 00:08:11,261 Speaker 1: TikTok globally has a massive cultural in making trends. 159 00:08:11,381 --> 00:08:14,622 Speaker 2: And then that has a commercial impact in selling stuff. 160 00:08:14,262 --> 00:08:16,742 Speaker 1: It can, but you don't have any control over that 161 00:08:16,782 --> 00:08:18,902 Speaker 1: because it's so random. So you can make a video 162 00:08:18,941 --> 00:08:21,782 Speaker 1: that goes absolutely viral, and then you can make a 163 00:08:21,902 --> 00:08:24,302 Speaker 1: hundred other videos that just don't and you don't know 164 00:08:24,342 --> 00:08:27,901 Speaker 1: why because it's about this algorithm. And of course the 165 00:08:27,941 --> 00:08:30,662 Speaker 1: other platforms are going the same way now because everybody's 166 00:08:30,941 --> 00:08:33,381 Speaker 1: trying to be like TikTok, which an idea that it's 167 00:08:33,422 --> 00:08:36,342 Speaker 1: helping small business is just not true. 168 00:08:36,542 --> 00:08:38,462 Speaker 3: I think it is. I would argue with you on that. 169 00:08:38,502 --> 00:08:40,902 Speaker 3: I think especially in like the travel space or whatever. 170 00:08:41,342 --> 00:08:44,462 Speaker 3: You'll notice it. You'll go traveling and everyone is going 171 00:08:44,462 --> 00:08:46,622 Speaker 3: to this cliff top bar. Yeah, why they're going to 172 00:08:46,622 --> 00:08:48,942 Speaker 3: that clifftop bar because they've seen it. That's how travel 173 00:08:48,982 --> 00:08:50,422 Speaker 3: has been things like that. 174 00:08:50,622 --> 00:08:54,822 Speaker 1: It's curated, but it's accidental, Like you can't manufacture that 175 00:08:54,982 --> 00:08:58,102 Speaker 1: unless guess what you pay for advertising on TikTok. You 176 00:08:58,182 --> 00:09:00,342 Speaker 1: can't say, oh, I've got a million followers, I'm going 177 00:09:00,382 --> 00:09:01,822 Speaker 1: to put out this thing and a million people will 178 00:09:01,862 --> 00:09:03,182 Speaker 1: see it. Maybe there are a. 179 00:09:03,222 --> 00:09:05,342 Speaker 3: Lot of businesses in the US which would have a 180 00:09:05,382 --> 00:09:08,102 Speaker 3: TikTok department, and that's what I'm kind of interested about. 181 00:09:08,502 --> 00:09:11,102 Speaker 3: But for context, Trump took a liking to the app 182 00:09:11,182 --> 00:09:12,942 Speaker 3: last year because he used it a lot for his 183 00:09:13,022 --> 00:09:15,622 Speaker 3: presidential campaign. He was kind of good at it, and 184 00:09:15,902 --> 00:09:19,142 Speaker 3: it's unclear whether he actually has the power at this 185 00:09:19,222 --> 00:09:23,342 Speaker 3: point to overrule the TikTok ban. My question is, Maya, 186 00:09:23,422 --> 00:09:24,702 Speaker 3: what do you think happens now? 187 00:09:24,982 --> 00:09:27,742 Speaker 1: We know that over the last or since Trump won 188 00:09:27,782 --> 00:09:32,182 Speaker 1: the election, it's just been a procession of tech billionaires 189 00:09:32,662 --> 00:09:35,582 Speaker 1: and CEOs making their way to Mari Lago, where he's 190 00:09:35,622 --> 00:09:38,782 Speaker 1: been camped out, to kiss the ring and to curry 191 00:09:38,782 --> 00:09:41,862 Speaker 1: favor with him because ironically, yes, he was the one 192 00:09:41,862 --> 00:09:45,262 Speaker 1: that started all of this by saying TikTok should be banned. 193 00:09:45,022 --> 00:09:46,062 Speaker 3: And then he's a savior. 194 00:09:46,142 --> 00:09:46,582 Speaker 1: I can't. 195 00:09:46,782 --> 00:09:49,822 Speaker 3: But of course that the beginning of the story. 196 00:09:49,462 --> 00:09:51,742 Speaker 1: But that is such a great plot point, you know, 197 00:09:51,902 --> 00:09:55,062 Speaker 1: and nobody remembers the beginning of anything. Everybody's just about 198 00:09:55,062 --> 00:09:56,982 Speaker 1: what's happening right now. And also, he used to be 199 00:09:56,982 --> 00:09:58,982 Speaker 1: at war with lots of the tech bros. He said 200 00:09:59,062 --> 00:10:00,982 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg should be a jail. He was at war with 201 00:10:01,022 --> 00:10:03,142 Speaker 1: lots of them, and now they're all onside. So he's 202 00:10:03,222 --> 00:10:07,062 Speaker 1: very much positioning himself as the hero of free speech 203 00:10:07,142 --> 00:10:07,902 Speaker 1: social media. 204 00:10:08,342 --> 00:10:12,222 Speaker 2: Those guys no reck elation. So it's very on brand 205 00:10:12,222 --> 00:10:14,022 Speaker 2: for him at the moment that he would be the savior. 206 00:10:14,222 --> 00:10:17,422 Speaker 1: So we're about to enter the new phase of this 207 00:10:17,502 --> 00:10:21,022 Speaker 1: reality show and Trump. You know, when it was very 208 00:10:21,142 --> 00:10:23,982 Speaker 1: chaotic last time, and it was all about resistance and 209 00:10:24,022 --> 00:10:27,582 Speaker 1: it was this you know, combative situation between Trump and everybody. 210 00:10:28,142 --> 00:10:31,862 Speaker 1: Now it's completely different this second term, and it's a 211 00:10:31,902 --> 00:10:34,542 Speaker 1: lot more about deference. There's no defiance, it's just deference. 212 00:10:34,902 --> 00:10:38,422 Speaker 1: So what Trump would want is for it to be banned, 213 00:10:38,622 --> 00:10:41,302 Speaker 1: because it's much more interesting if it's banned, and then 214 00:10:41,382 --> 00:10:44,622 Speaker 1: he brings it back versus him stepping in before it's banned, 215 00:10:44,782 --> 00:10:46,982 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? So everyone's experienced it. 216 00:10:46,982 --> 00:10:48,702 Speaker 1: It's a lot more more interesting, a lot more drama, 217 00:10:49,102 --> 00:10:50,142 Speaker 1: more attention for him. 218 00:10:50,182 --> 00:10:52,342 Speaker 3: The reason it came back, Biden has sort of said, 219 00:10:52,502 --> 00:10:53,582 Speaker 3: I'm going to leave it to Trump. 220 00:10:53,742 --> 00:10:56,702 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he's out. He literally has about six more hours. 221 00:10:56,942 --> 00:10:58,862 Speaker 2: And there are all kinds of rumors about the sort 222 00:10:58,862 --> 00:11:00,942 Speaker 2: of coalitions that are being put together that might be 223 00:11:00,942 --> 00:11:03,182 Speaker 2: palatable for the US government to be able to say, look, 224 00:11:03,262 --> 00:11:06,102 Speaker 2: now it's part American owned and all those things, and 225 00:11:06,142 --> 00:11:07,662 Speaker 2: the CEO of TikTok is going to be at the 226 00:11:07,702 --> 00:11:09,942 Speaker 2: inauguration sitting right next to all the other right on 227 00:11:09,942 --> 00:11:11,742 Speaker 2: the stage, So it's going to be. 228 00:11:11,742 --> 00:11:15,942 Speaker 1: Literally just they'll sell some of it to you because 229 00:11:15,982 --> 00:11:18,182 Speaker 1: of that algorithm. So some people are like, oh, he's 230 00:11:18,222 --> 00:11:19,582 Speaker 1: just setting it up so he can sell it to 231 00:11:19,582 --> 00:11:23,382 Speaker 1: Elon Musk, who is Vice President in waiting. Why that 232 00:11:23,462 --> 00:11:27,782 Speaker 1: won't happen is that this algorithm, this algorithm is so 233 00:11:28,462 --> 00:11:32,462 Speaker 1: some say dodgy, some say incredibly powerful. It's probably both. 234 00:11:33,182 --> 00:11:36,742 Speaker 1: No one wants that ip to get out to competitors, 235 00:11:36,782 --> 00:11:39,342 Speaker 1: and Twitter is a competitor. So even though Elon would 236 00:11:39,382 --> 00:11:42,502 Speaker 1: love it and Trump would probably like Elon to have it, 237 00:11:42,542 --> 00:11:45,542 Speaker 1: Trump's all about the deal. Actually, his favorite thing is 238 00:11:45,542 --> 00:11:47,942 Speaker 1: when people are fighting with each other. So he's now 239 00:11:47,982 --> 00:11:51,381 Speaker 1: got the CEO of TikTok, he's got Mark Zuckerberg, he's 240 00:11:51,382 --> 00:11:54,502 Speaker 1: got Elon, he's got Jeff Bezos. They're all just competing 241 00:11:54,542 --> 00:11:57,222 Speaker 1: with each other, Sam Altman from Open Aie, They're all 242 00:11:57,262 --> 00:12:00,622 Speaker 1: just competing with each other to see who can do 243 00:12:00,822 --> 00:12:01,702 Speaker 1: whatever Trump wants. 244 00:12:01,902 --> 00:12:04,382 Speaker 2: My kids confidently told me that mister Beast is buying it, 245 00:12:04,822 --> 00:12:08,262 Speaker 2: so that actually, and they're like, don't worry, he's going 246 00:12:08,342 --> 00:12:12,182 Speaker 2: to save it. And I'm like, Sam, legit. Anyway, I 247 00:12:12,222 --> 00:12:14,582 Speaker 2: want to talk about the response. Because we started this 248 00:12:14,662 --> 00:12:17,342 Speaker 2: segment by playing all the sound of all the TikTok 249 00:12:17,542 --> 00:12:21,542 Speaker 2: creators crying. Now it's easy to mock that. I can 250 00:12:21,622 --> 00:12:23,822 Speaker 2: understand it. I mean, the thing we were just arguing 251 00:12:23,862 --> 00:12:25,702 Speaker 2: about whether or not people make money from TikTok. Of 252 00:12:25,702 --> 00:12:28,382 Speaker 2: course they do in different ways. You know, if Instagram 253 00:12:28,462 --> 00:12:31,702 Speaker 2: has suddenly disappeared tomorrow, I would take a financial hit, 254 00:12:31,782 --> 00:12:32,582 Speaker 2: like I literally would. 255 00:12:32,622 --> 00:12:33,902 Speaker 1: I mark in my books. 256 00:12:33,582 --> 00:12:36,302 Speaker 2: Through that, we promote our podcasts through that, we make 257 00:12:36,342 --> 00:12:39,662 Speaker 2: content through that. So for some people it's about livelihood, 258 00:12:39,982 --> 00:12:43,182 Speaker 2: but for many, many, many more, it's just about It's 259 00:12:43,262 --> 00:12:46,302 Speaker 2: really interesting in the way we've completely changed our view 260 00:12:46,342 --> 00:12:49,182 Speaker 2: of what media is and how we now see the 261 00:12:49,182 --> 00:12:51,822 Speaker 2: social platforms that we check, as you said, Jesse every 262 00:12:51,822 --> 00:12:56,022 Speaker 2: two or three minutes, not as private companies or media organizations, 263 00:12:56,382 --> 00:13:00,622 Speaker 2: but like air and water, line rights, basic service, basic services, 264 00:13:00,702 --> 00:13:03,982 Speaker 2: human rights, things we can't do without, but our lives 265 00:13:04,022 --> 00:13:07,422 Speaker 2: are there. How could you take that? It's really hard 266 00:13:07,462 --> 00:13:10,342 Speaker 2: not to sound a bit boomery to say this, but 267 00:13:10,422 --> 00:13:14,062 Speaker 2: that's kind of really sad. It's really sad addiction, isn't it. 268 00:13:14,062 --> 00:13:17,302 Speaker 2: It's literal addiction. I think it's really interesting to see that. 269 00:13:17,422 --> 00:13:20,262 Speaker 2: You know, we love it. It's constant distraction, it's our 270 00:13:20,582 --> 00:13:23,902 Speaker 2: particular choice of entertainment and all these things. But it 271 00:13:23,942 --> 00:13:27,062 Speaker 2: isn't air or water, it isn't real human connection, and 272 00:13:27,102 --> 00:13:30,982 Speaker 2: it's really difficult to, i think, for people to get 273 00:13:30,982 --> 00:13:34,382 Speaker 2: their heads around the attachment people have. So you probably 274 00:13:34,462 --> 00:13:36,262 Speaker 2: might have seen a lot of headlines over the weekend 275 00:13:36,382 --> 00:13:40,862 Speaker 2: saying Americans are now logging onto other Chinese owned social 276 00:13:40,902 --> 00:13:44,742 Speaker 2: media platforms, laugh particularly one called red Note, because they 277 00:13:44,782 --> 00:13:49,822 Speaker 2: would rather almost anything than to not have their version 278 00:13:49,862 --> 00:13:51,502 Speaker 2: of TikTok when they open their phone. 279 00:13:51,822 --> 00:13:54,822 Speaker 3: It's one the headline. The headline on the drum was 280 00:13:54,942 --> 00:13:57,982 Speaker 3: TikTok evacuees would rather learn Mandarin for red note than 281 00:13:58,062 --> 00:14:00,342 Speaker 3: use meta, Which is funny because you might have noticed 282 00:14:00,342 --> 00:14:03,302 Speaker 3: in the last week Meta changed how your grid looks. 283 00:14:03,342 --> 00:14:06,382 Speaker 3: Have you noticed this? They've changed it into the TikTok 284 00:14:07,182 --> 00:14:10,822 Speaker 3: dimensions exactly. Look, as you were saying with content creators, 285 00:14:11,302 --> 00:14:14,862 Speaker 3: I understand crying as a content creator. Eighty five percent 286 00:14:14,902 --> 00:14:18,022 Speaker 3: of those content creators are women, and they're making a 287 00:14:18,062 --> 00:14:20,182 Speaker 3: decent living. There's a creative fund. 288 00:14:20,302 --> 00:14:22,302 Speaker 1: I don't know how many. No, the creative fund gives 289 00:14:22,342 --> 00:14:25,462 Speaker 1: almost nothing, So I think some people are making money. 290 00:14:25,542 --> 00:14:28,022 Speaker 1: Most people are not making money. So I think what 291 00:14:28,062 --> 00:14:31,542 Speaker 1: they dangle is the prospect of making money. You know, oh, 292 00:14:31,582 --> 00:14:33,862 Speaker 1: you could go viral this video you just post again, 293 00:14:33,942 --> 00:14:36,062 Speaker 1: you could go viral. You could go viral. But even 294 00:14:36,062 --> 00:14:39,022 Speaker 1: the people who go viral can they then monetize that 295 00:14:39,102 --> 00:14:42,462 Speaker 1: virality because it's so random. It's really hard. It is. 296 00:14:42,542 --> 00:14:45,182 Speaker 3: But I think it would be wrong to suggest that 297 00:14:45,182 --> 00:14:46,902 Speaker 3: no one's making money off it like they are. Some 298 00:14:46,942 --> 00:14:48,702 Speaker 3: people have a real, real livelihood. 299 00:14:48,822 --> 00:14:50,542 Speaker 2: Also, it makes them famous and they can speak it 300 00:14:50,702 --> 00:14:53,222 Speaker 2: off to other things. Yeah, I think it's more branding. 301 00:14:53,302 --> 00:14:55,862 Speaker 3: And everyone has said TikTok. I'm like any other social 302 00:14:55,862 --> 00:14:57,982 Speaker 3: media app ever created will make you go faster. It 303 00:14:58,022 --> 00:15:00,302 Speaker 3: will make you go viral faster than anything. In that way, 304 00:15:00,542 --> 00:15:01,142 Speaker 3: it's easier. 305 00:15:01,302 --> 00:15:03,462 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting what you said whole. If someone 306 00:15:03,502 --> 00:15:08,142 Speaker 1: said I'm taking your phone away tomorrow, I would be 307 00:15:08,142 --> 00:15:10,742 Speaker 1: because I'm addicted to it, and also because I assume 308 00:15:11,182 --> 00:15:13,342 Speaker 1: having a phone and having connection to the Internet is 309 00:15:13,382 --> 00:15:16,902 Speaker 1: a human right, Like I get that this idea of 310 00:15:16,942 --> 00:15:18,622 Speaker 1: what do you mean I can't have it? 311 00:15:18,742 --> 00:15:22,782 Speaker 3: And for a generation, this isn't only an entertainment app. 312 00:15:23,102 --> 00:15:24,902 Speaker 3: It's news, it's Google. 313 00:15:25,102 --> 00:15:27,222 Speaker 1: There also be nits. But used to being told no. 314 00:15:27,342 --> 00:15:29,822 Speaker 3: Well yeah, but I'm trying to think of a comparison. 315 00:15:29,862 --> 00:15:31,622 Speaker 3: I mean, think about you in the eighties or whatever, 316 00:15:31,622 --> 00:15:33,502 Speaker 3: if someone tried to take your TV, Like it's a 317 00:15:33,542 --> 00:15:36,742 Speaker 3: similar comparison. But I think that if it is something, 318 00:15:36,782 --> 00:15:40,662 Speaker 3: if it's the way that you search anything, it's like, 319 00:15:41,102 --> 00:15:43,182 Speaker 3: how do I even live now? It's not like any 320 00:15:43,182 --> 00:15:44,022 Speaker 3: other product. 321 00:15:44,302 --> 00:15:47,062 Speaker 2: It's interesting though, because without wanting to go to weeedy, 322 00:15:47,142 --> 00:15:49,342 Speaker 2: what me is saying about the way the algorithm owns 323 00:15:49,382 --> 00:15:53,462 Speaker 2: us all is true. But also this trend and we've 324 00:15:53,462 --> 00:15:55,222 Speaker 2: talked about it all the tech guys who are going 325 00:15:55,262 --> 00:15:57,982 Speaker 2: to be sitting very front and center on that stage tomorrow. 326 00:15:58,582 --> 00:16:02,182 Speaker 2: Is In Zuckerberg's interview with Joe Rogan, he very much 327 00:16:02,222 --> 00:16:05,262 Speaker 2: paints himself and the other tech companies as massive victims 328 00:16:05,302 --> 00:16:08,542 Speaker 2: of government overreach. Right, so he very much says, you know, 329 00:16:09,022 --> 00:16:11,222 Speaker 2: government's all over the world, and I assume when he 330 00:16:11,262 --> 00:16:14,102 Speaker 2: says that, he is also partly referencing Australia and our 331 00:16:14,262 --> 00:16:17,382 Speaker 2: upcoming social media band are trying to limit our business, 332 00:16:17,542 --> 00:16:19,902 Speaker 2: trying to take your information away from you, trying to 333 00:16:19,902 --> 00:16:23,222 Speaker 2: take away your free speech. And so it's very on 334 00:16:23,502 --> 00:16:26,382 Speaker 2: brand at the moment, very popular because they don't want 335 00:16:26,422 --> 00:16:28,022 Speaker 2: to be regulated. Yet they don't want to be regulated, 336 00:16:28,102 --> 00:16:29,782 Speaker 2: they want to make more and more money. But happily 337 00:16:29,782 --> 00:16:33,462 Speaker 2: they've also made their users, including all of us, believe 338 00:16:33,582 --> 00:16:37,102 Speaker 2: that their services are so essential and they're trying to 339 00:16:37,102 --> 00:16:39,342 Speaker 2: be taken away. And so that's why it's so genius 340 00:16:39,382 --> 00:16:42,382 Speaker 2: in a way that when an Americans opened TikTok yesterday 341 00:16:42,422 --> 00:16:45,462 Speaker 2: and saw that it was gone, the President Trump of 342 00:16:45,502 --> 00:16:49,542 Speaker 2: it all in that message was immediately like, but Daddy 343 00:16:49,542 --> 00:16:51,342 Speaker 2: Trump is going to come along and he's going to 344 00:16:51,382 --> 00:16:54,702 Speaker 2: give all you kids back your TikTok, and all those people, 345 00:16:54,782 --> 00:16:57,582 Speaker 2: young people, many of whom probably are not sympathetic to 346 00:16:57,622 --> 00:17:01,702 Speaker 2: President Trump in general, are going to be like, thanks, Dad. 347 00:17:01,622 --> 00:17:05,941 Speaker 3: He saved us. Those companies have so far been stifled 348 00:17:05,942 --> 00:17:07,022 Speaker 3: by government overreach. 349 00:17:07,101 --> 00:17:08,142 Speaker 2: Can you imagine what will happen? 350 00:17:08,182 --> 00:17:10,742 Speaker 3: You imagine what would happen when they're. 351 00:17:10,502 --> 00:17:14,342 Speaker 1: Not After the break, Michelle Obama has taken on Holly's 352 00:17:14,341 --> 00:17:17,022 Speaker 1: word of the Year, and I have an announcement. 353 00:17:19,381 --> 00:17:23,982 Speaker 6: Four bush and a bikini full bush, and a bikini 354 00:17:24,422 --> 00:17:30,901 Speaker 6: full bush and a bikini like full bush in a bikini. 355 00:17:31,502 --> 00:17:33,462 Speaker 1: Friends, it wouldn't be the start of the year without 356 00:17:33,502 --> 00:17:36,581 Speaker 1: important pubic hair news. And today we have some full 357 00:17:36,621 --> 00:17:38,782 Speaker 1: bush in a bikini. As you just heard, is a 358 00:17:38,782 --> 00:17:41,742 Speaker 1: phrase that I'd like to consider for our first out 359 00:17:41,782 --> 00:17:45,821 Speaker 1: loud merch drop because it speaks to a growing full 360 00:17:45,861 --> 00:17:49,141 Speaker 1: bush movement in the pants of gen Z women while 361 00:17:49,222 --> 00:17:52,621 Speaker 1: gen X and boomer women are feeling very excited about 362 00:17:52,702 --> 00:17:56,702 Speaker 1: finally having on trend pubes. Happy days. All right, let's 363 00:17:56,742 --> 00:18:00,302 Speaker 1: unpack these pubes together. The woman you just heard is 364 00:18:00,341 --> 00:18:02,381 Speaker 1: the one we have to thank for this new phrase. 365 00:18:02,661 --> 00:18:06,262 Speaker 1: Her name is Suninda, and she's a regular person on TikTok. 366 00:18:06,262 --> 00:18:10,381 Speaker 1: Funnily enough, who was just scrolling through Etsy and found 367 00:18:10,422 --> 00:18:12,861 Speaker 1: this bikini that she quite liked. And underneath there were 368 00:18:12,942 --> 00:18:16,422 Speaker 1: all these reviews from people who'd bought the bikini, including 369 00:18:16,702 --> 00:18:19,262 Speaker 1: someone who'd bought it and posted a picture of herself, 370 00:18:19,262 --> 00:18:22,581 Speaker 1: and in this picture it was a positive review. Suninda 371 00:18:22,742 --> 00:18:26,182 Speaker 1: noticed that she had a very, very full bush. Now 372 00:18:26,341 --> 00:18:30,221 Speaker 1: nobody can actually locate this photo, because yes, I have tried. 373 00:18:30,661 --> 00:18:33,581 Speaker 1: The sentiment is being widely embraced by the thirteen million 374 00:18:33,581 --> 00:18:37,382 Speaker 1: people who've watched that video about it. Now, this does 375 00:18:37,422 --> 00:18:39,821 Speaker 1: seem to be bad news for laser people who might 376 00:18:39,861 --> 00:18:43,302 Speaker 1: want to consider merkans, because laser is sadly not reversible. 377 00:18:43,821 --> 00:18:48,302 Speaker 1: There has been some really awesome commentary overall, translating to 378 00:18:48,742 --> 00:18:54,022 Speaker 1: you do you. One particular poetic observer noted pubic hair, 379 00:18:54,182 --> 00:18:57,581 Speaker 1: often viewed through a lens of societal uneasy taboo, is 380 00:18:57,661 --> 00:19:01,742 Speaker 1: here reclaimed as a form of personal expression and empowerment, 381 00:19:02,341 --> 00:19:06,061 Speaker 1: and another person brilliantly described it as age one week 382 00:19:06,141 --> 00:19:11,901 Speaker 1: born on TikTok appearance dense and luxuriant. The movement's unofficial 383 00:19:11,942 --> 00:19:15,901 Speaker 1: motto comes from this comment. Every time you keep your 384 00:19:15,901 --> 00:19:19,621 Speaker 1: bush despite societal pressures an angel gains its wings. 385 00:19:19,901 --> 00:19:23,022 Speaker 3: Yeah, have you guys seen this at the beach this summer? No, 386 00:19:23,182 --> 00:19:24,101 Speaker 3: I've seen it in the wild. 387 00:19:24,262 --> 00:19:26,061 Speaker 2: I think I see it anyway, because I hang around 388 00:19:26,101 --> 00:19:29,702 Speaker 2: with normal people. Yeah, exactly, we still have pubic care. 389 00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:31,142 Speaker 3: I've definitely seen. 390 00:19:30,942 --> 00:19:33,502 Speaker 2: A very judgmental comment. Me is glaring at me because 391 00:19:33,542 --> 00:19:35,542 Speaker 2: it sound like I'm saying that people who don't have 392 00:19:35,581 --> 00:19:37,861 Speaker 2: pubic care not normal. No, No, I retract that comment. 393 00:19:38,022 --> 00:19:39,061 Speaker 2: You misread my look. 394 00:19:39,141 --> 00:19:43,101 Speaker 1: It was what situations are you in where you see 395 00:19:43,262 --> 00:19:45,262 Speaker 1: other women's pubic care when. 396 00:19:45,182 --> 00:19:46,982 Speaker 2: Miss the beach and it's coming out of the sides 397 00:19:47,022 --> 00:19:47,662 Speaker 2: of their bikini. 398 00:19:47,661 --> 00:19:50,542 Speaker 1: But so you have seen it in the wild, Okay. 399 00:19:50,381 --> 00:19:52,141 Speaker 3: And when you're saying you don't think it's intentional, I 400 00:19:52,182 --> 00:19:52,622 Speaker 3: don't think. 401 00:19:52,742 --> 00:19:54,821 Speaker 2: I don't think i've seen it in the wild as 402 00:19:54,861 --> 00:19:57,342 Speaker 2: like a cool TikTok trend. I think I've just seen 403 00:19:57,381 --> 00:19:59,222 Speaker 2: it in the wild as the way that women look 404 00:19:59,262 --> 00:20:00,502 Speaker 2: when they go swimming at the beach. 405 00:20:00,542 --> 00:20:04,861 Speaker 3: Sometimes I wonder if as a result of the new 406 00:20:04,982 --> 00:20:06,941 Speaker 3: cut of bikinis. When I say new, let's say the 407 00:20:07,022 --> 00:20:10,901 Speaker 3: last two years, yes, is inevitable have gone? I either 408 00:20:10,982 --> 00:20:14,742 Speaker 3: remove with a tweezer every single hair I've ever grown, 409 00:20:15,101 --> 00:20:17,941 Speaker 3: or I just embrace this because the cut at the 410 00:20:17,982 --> 00:20:21,262 Speaker 3: front I quite like a not a boyleg, but like, 411 00:20:21,502 --> 00:20:23,661 Speaker 3: oh yeah, I don't do a G string or whatever. 412 00:20:23,742 --> 00:20:26,302 Speaker 1: I just the high nineties, the high nineties thing. 413 00:20:26,742 --> 00:20:28,741 Speaker 3: I mean, you can get a great bikini like you 414 00:20:28,782 --> 00:20:32,022 Speaker 3: can do your bikini line. You've not even half removed 415 00:20:32,022 --> 00:20:33,982 Speaker 3: what's going to be on show. So I think people 416 00:20:33,982 --> 00:20:37,061 Speaker 3: have just gone it's all too hard. Let the bush fly. 417 00:20:38,101 --> 00:20:42,902 Speaker 2: Tomorrow is the coronation, sorry, inauguration of Donald Trump as 418 00:20:42,942 --> 00:20:45,821 Speaker 2: the returning president of the USA. And look, we're going 419 00:20:45,901 --> 00:20:48,502 Speaker 2: to be pulling Amelia Lester out of the corner. She's 420 00:20:48,621 --> 00:20:51,861 Speaker 2: likely rocking in to attend our debrief when we're going 421 00:20:51,901 --> 00:20:54,942 Speaker 2: to record a little episode about the event just for subscribers. 422 00:20:55,381 --> 00:20:58,821 Speaker 2: But someone who is not accepting her invitation to the party, which, 423 00:20:58,901 --> 00:21:01,101 Speaker 2: unlike the last time Trump took off, is going to 424 00:21:01,101 --> 00:21:05,581 Speaker 2: be a big, well attended affair with huge, very well 425 00:21:05,581 --> 00:21:09,341 Speaker 2: funded victory parties all over town, is Michelle Obama, who 426 00:21:09,381 --> 00:21:12,942 Speaker 2: is we've decided giving big let them energy to her 427 00:21:13,061 --> 00:21:16,901 Speaker 2: year of nup. Her husband is going, Hillary Clinton is going, 428 00:21:17,141 --> 00:21:20,502 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris and Doug are going. Former presidents Bush and 429 00:21:20,542 --> 00:21:22,702 Speaker 2: Clinton and the current one we think he's called Joe 430 00:21:22,702 --> 00:21:26,221 Speaker 2: Biden will be there, of course with Jill. But Michelle 431 00:21:26,302 --> 00:21:29,581 Speaker 2: has said nup, not doing it, and I think it 432 00:21:29,702 --> 00:21:32,742 Speaker 2: means something. Last time Trump was standing on that White 433 00:21:32,742 --> 00:21:34,821 Speaker 2: House stage in his big coat, it was the Obamas 434 00:21:34,821 --> 00:21:38,221 Speaker 2: who were leaving office, and she said, understandably perhaps that 435 00:21:38,341 --> 00:21:41,262 Speaker 2: she cried her eyes out afterwards. Here's a little bit 436 00:21:41,341 --> 00:21:42,502 Speaker 2: of what she said about it. 437 00:21:42,661 --> 00:21:46,941 Speaker 4: To sit on that stage and watch the opposite of 438 00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:50,582 Speaker 4: what we represented on display. There was no diversity, there 439 00:21:50,661 --> 00:21:53,861 Speaker 4: was no color on that stage. There was no reflection 440 00:21:54,141 --> 00:21:59,061 Speaker 4: of the broader sense of America. I cried for thirty 441 00:21:59,101 --> 00:22:04,302 Speaker 4: minutes straight, uncontrollable sobbing, because that's how much we were 442 00:22:04,341 --> 00:22:06,782 Speaker 4: holding it together for eight years. 443 00:22:07,182 --> 00:22:10,902 Speaker 2: So this time she is protecting her peace and nupping 444 00:22:10,901 --> 00:22:15,142 Speaker 2: it so we believe, is Nancy Pelosi. I wonder if 445 00:22:15,141 --> 00:22:17,061 Speaker 2: this is all part of the lessons being learned from 446 00:22:17,061 --> 00:22:20,101 Speaker 2: the Trump era, like fuck the rules, fuck the niceties, 447 00:22:20,182 --> 00:22:23,661 Speaker 2: We're gonna do what we want to do. Because former 448 00:22:23,702 --> 00:22:27,821 Speaker 2: president's wives have always gone to these things. Michelle Obama, though, 449 00:22:27,901 --> 00:22:29,941 Speaker 2: is one of the most high profile of all of 450 00:22:29,982 --> 00:22:32,341 Speaker 2: those women, and she is not going to go and 451 00:22:32,381 --> 00:22:35,302 Speaker 2: smile and shake hands with the man she's openly criticized 452 00:22:35,341 --> 00:22:36,941 Speaker 2: in the past, unlike a lot of the people who 453 00:22:36,982 --> 00:22:38,862 Speaker 2: are going to be there, who have said awful things 454 00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:42,101 Speaker 2: about Trump before, but now suddenly, as we just discussed, 455 00:22:42,141 --> 00:22:44,302 Speaker 2: are saying, Oh, actually he's fine. Here, I have some money, 456 00:22:44,422 --> 00:22:45,341 Speaker 2: let's have a party. 457 00:22:45,901 --> 00:22:46,141 Speaker 1: Mia. 458 00:22:46,302 --> 00:22:49,222 Speaker 2: Does Michelle's not have a broader significance? 459 00:22:49,901 --> 00:22:52,222 Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting that she did this 460 00:22:52,502 --> 00:22:56,502 Speaker 1: after last week or the week before not attending Jimmy 461 00:22:56,542 --> 00:22:57,861 Speaker 1: Carter's funeral as well. 462 00:22:57,982 --> 00:22:59,581 Speaker 3: What was the reason for that? Has she said? What 463 00:22:59,621 --> 00:23:00,261 Speaker 3: the reason was? 464 00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,542 Speaker 1: She the reason that she gave for not attending Jimmy 465 00:23:03,581 --> 00:23:06,222 Speaker 1: Carter's funeral, He was the oldest living president, and every 466 00:23:06,222 --> 00:23:08,621 Speaker 1: other living president was there. There were some really funny 467 00:23:08,661 --> 00:23:11,981 Speaker 1: memes and videos about that. But she said she had 468 00:23:12,022 --> 00:23:14,621 Speaker 1: a scheduling conflict, and it was later discovered that she 469 00:23:14,742 --> 00:23:18,141 Speaker 1: was on holiday I think in Hawaii or somewhere, and 470 00:23:18,222 --> 00:23:20,262 Speaker 1: so that actually all sparked up a little bit of 471 00:23:20,302 --> 00:23:23,262 Speaker 1: divorce rumors over the weekend. How are the Obama's doing? 472 00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:25,262 Speaker 1: They haven't been seen in public for a while, which 473 00:23:25,262 --> 00:23:29,542 Speaker 1: Obama hosed down by posting a happy birthday photo with 474 00:23:29,621 --> 00:23:32,502 Speaker 1: him and Michelle holding hands over a table, and she commented, 475 00:23:32,542 --> 00:23:36,382 Speaker 1: love you honey anyway her nup. I think, Holly, you've 476 00:23:36,422 --> 00:23:39,382 Speaker 1: nailed it. It's you know, if you've read Becoming, which 477 00:23:39,422 --> 00:23:44,421 Speaker 1: we all have. Michelle's autobiography, she talks so much about 478 00:23:44,422 --> 00:23:49,182 Speaker 1: being the first Black first lady and how she had 479 00:23:49,222 --> 00:23:53,422 Speaker 1: to just be so so diligent about not giving anybody 480 00:23:53,462 --> 00:23:56,861 Speaker 1: anything to weaponize against her and against black women and 481 00:23:56,901 --> 00:24:01,501 Speaker 1: black people by being perfect essentially, And imagine what it 482 00:24:01,782 --> 00:24:03,901 Speaker 1: must have felt like for her to then leave and 483 00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:07,141 Speaker 1: then see basically Milania just came in and took a 484 00:24:07,182 --> 00:24:11,381 Speaker 1: big dump over what that role has traditioned been, including 485 00:24:11,581 --> 00:24:14,742 Speaker 1: my personal highlight of wearing the jacket saying I don't 486 00:24:14,782 --> 00:24:17,141 Speaker 1: care to you when she was going to visit children 487 00:24:17,141 --> 00:24:20,782 Speaker 1: in cages. So I think she's literally just drawn a 488 00:24:20,821 --> 00:24:24,101 Speaker 1: line in the sand. She's having the year of nap, 489 00:24:24,702 --> 00:24:28,341 Speaker 1: just like you whole, and I think that everybody's seen, 490 00:24:28,901 --> 00:24:32,302 Speaker 1: particularly women. You can do everything right, Kamala Harras. You 491 00:24:32,341 --> 00:24:35,302 Speaker 1: can be even Hillary Clinton, you can be qualified, You 492 00:24:35,341 --> 00:24:37,421 Speaker 1: can do all the right things, you can say all 493 00:24:37,422 --> 00:24:40,181 Speaker 1: the right things, and it doesn't seem to matter. 494 00:24:40,621 --> 00:24:43,382 Speaker 3: I think she's read let them. I reckon she read 495 00:24:43,381 --> 00:24:45,861 Speaker 3: her over the holidays, because I know that Oprah, how 496 00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:48,381 Speaker 3: I believe you know they're in a chap. Sure, Oprah 497 00:24:48,422 --> 00:24:51,542 Speaker 3: read it. Oprah loved it. I think she said, Michelle, 498 00:24:51,661 --> 00:24:53,622 Speaker 3: not passive aggressively, but just said, I think you'd get 499 00:24:53,621 --> 00:24:54,181 Speaker 3: a lot out of this. 500 00:24:54,381 --> 00:24:55,741 Speaker 2: Yeah, let them have their party. 501 00:24:55,901 --> 00:24:58,262 Speaker 3: Yes, let them have their party, but let me not come. 502 00:24:58,502 --> 00:25:00,702 Speaker 3: And that's what she's decided to do. 503 00:25:00,821 --> 00:25:03,061 Speaker 2: Because I ask you, though, Jessie, because you're very good 504 00:25:03,061 --> 00:25:06,302 Speaker 2: at this, what's the respectful line of nup in that situation? 505 00:25:06,422 --> 00:25:09,981 Speaker 2: Because when you lose, you shake the hand of the winner, 506 00:25:10,502 --> 00:25:13,221 Speaker 2: and you know the progressive side of politics, and made 507 00:25:13,262 --> 00:25:17,141 Speaker 2: a big deal of that after the insurrection in Washington 508 00:25:17,381 --> 00:25:20,221 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. So you shake the hand, you 509 00:25:20,302 --> 00:25:24,061 Speaker 2: follow the niceties. Is there like a disrespectful line of nup? 510 00:25:24,101 --> 00:25:25,782 Speaker 2: Because does that also mean you have to go? 511 00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:28,542 Speaker 3: You were right? I was wrong. I reckon she did 512 00:25:28,542 --> 00:25:32,542 Speaker 3: that in twenty sixteen watching the Obamas after Trump said 513 00:25:32,982 --> 00:25:37,462 Speaker 3: that Barack Obama was the head of isis total falsehoods 514 00:25:37,581 --> 00:25:40,221 Speaker 3: about them For them to show up at his inauguration 515 00:25:40,782 --> 00:25:44,382 Speaker 3: and shake his hand and be respectful they did their job. 516 00:25:44,661 --> 00:25:47,742 Speaker 3: She's no longer the first lady. I think your job's finished. 517 00:25:47,821 --> 00:25:48,702 Speaker 3: It's so fine. 518 00:25:48,782 --> 00:25:52,061 Speaker 1: Yeah, whereas your role as a former president, your job's 519 00:25:52,141 --> 00:25:53,221 Speaker 1: kind of neverit different. 520 00:25:53,341 --> 00:25:55,101 Speaker 3: It's different. And she wasn't the president, she was the 521 00:25:55,101 --> 00:25:55,661 Speaker 3: first lady. 522 00:25:55,542 --> 00:25:57,981 Speaker 1: Because Obama sat next to Trump at the funeral. Yeah, 523 00:25:58,022 --> 00:26:01,542 Speaker 1: and they were famously seen. He was sort of like laughing. 524 00:26:01,581 --> 00:26:03,221 Speaker 1: I mean, he was making small talk. He'd have to. 525 00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:05,861 Speaker 3: And let's not forget there is one president in all 526 00:26:05,942 --> 00:26:08,221 Speaker 3: of US history who did not show up to an inauguration, 527 00:26:08,702 --> 00:26:10,661 Speaker 3: and it was Donald Trump and Millennia. They did not 528 00:26:10,702 --> 00:26:13,902 Speaker 3: show up to Joe bien As inauguration. So I totally 529 00:26:14,262 --> 00:26:17,462 Speaker 3: respect her move. There's another nut story this week. I'm 530 00:26:17,462 --> 00:26:20,661 Speaker 3: not sure if you've seen it. So Novak Djokovic is 531 00:26:20,702 --> 00:26:23,861 Speaker 3: also embracing his year of nuts. Some would say, you know, 532 00:26:23,901 --> 00:26:26,381 Speaker 3: we're going on to twenty years of nut with Djokovic. 533 00:26:26,581 --> 00:26:28,701 Speaker 2: You're a tennis correspondent. 534 00:26:28,141 --> 00:26:31,022 Speaker 3: Yes, Australian Open, so this is the news today. He 535 00:26:31,101 --> 00:26:34,302 Speaker 3: won his quarter final last night and then he refused 536 00:26:34,381 --> 00:26:36,821 Speaker 3: to speak to the reporter on the court. He just 537 00:26:36,942 --> 00:26:39,142 Speaker 3: kind of said something to the audience and then walked off. 538 00:26:39,782 --> 00:26:43,542 Speaker 3: He was speaking afterwards about why he made that decision. 539 00:26:43,702 --> 00:26:45,901 Speaker 5: The reason why I chose not to do that is 540 00:26:45,942 --> 00:26:50,061 Speaker 5: because a few days ago a famous a sports journalist 541 00:26:50,061 --> 00:26:53,542 Speaker 5: here from Australia who works for a main broadcaster of 542 00:26:53,581 --> 00:26:57,381 Speaker 5: Australia and open at Channel nine, decided to mock a 543 00:26:57,462 --> 00:27:02,701 Speaker 5: Serbian fans and he made insulting and offensive comments towards me. 544 00:27:03,621 --> 00:27:07,341 Speaker 5: So I was hoping he's going to apologize in public, 545 00:27:07,381 --> 00:27:08,621 Speaker 5: which he hasn't done yet. 546 00:27:09,581 --> 00:27:11,022 Speaker 6: I made it into the channel name. 547 00:27:11,182 --> 00:27:13,701 Speaker 3: So what did Jones actually say? Here's a grab of 548 00:27:13,702 --> 00:27:15,102 Speaker 3: what he said the other day back to. 549 00:27:15,061 --> 00:27:18,661 Speaker 7: Melbourne Park where you can see the Novak Djokovic fans 550 00:27:18,661 --> 00:27:23,061 Speaker 7: there in full voice. Yeah, the chances are quite exuretiny Novak, 551 00:27:23,101 --> 00:27:27,941 Speaker 7: he's overrated. Novaksa has the Novack kicking out. 552 00:27:28,821 --> 00:27:30,141 Speaker 6: Oh I'm glad they can't hear me. 553 00:27:30,341 --> 00:27:32,901 Speaker 1: But wasn't he just repeating what the chances were saying. 554 00:27:34,101 --> 00:27:37,382 Speaker 3: They were actually supporters and he mocked the Serbian fans, 555 00:27:37,942 --> 00:27:41,821 Speaker 3: which Novak hated. I reckon it's totally fair enough for 556 00:27:41,942 --> 00:27:46,221 Speaker 3: him to finish playing a match which he won. You know, 557 00:27:46,302 --> 00:27:47,742 Speaker 3: he's been the number one in the world for a 558 00:27:47,821 --> 00:27:49,342 Speaker 3: very long time. I'm not sure if he is right now, 559 00:27:49,381 --> 00:27:52,022 Speaker 3: but he has been to be mocked by a commentator 560 00:27:52,061 --> 00:27:54,421 Speaker 3: like that. It's like, no, I'm not going to come 561 00:27:54,422 --> 00:27:57,022 Speaker 3: out and talk to you. And then this morning Jones 562 00:27:57,022 --> 00:27:57,941 Speaker 3: came out and apologize. 563 00:27:57,942 --> 00:28:00,221 Speaker 1: Remember when Michelle Obama said when they go low, we 564 00:28:00,302 --> 00:28:01,702 Speaker 1: go high about Donald Trump. 565 00:28:02,341 --> 00:28:05,102 Speaker 3: Now it's when we go low we go to Hawaii, 566 00:28:05,101 --> 00:28:05,702 Speaker 3: we don't. 567 00:28:05,502 --> 00:28:08,661 Speaker 2: Go It's interesting because I reckon that fits into the 568 00:28:08,702 --> 00:28:11,181 Speaker 2: screw of the rules. Who because it's like, you have 569 00:28:11,262 --> 00:28:13,142 Speaker 2: to give an interview to this particular journalist. 570 00:28:13,302 --> 00:28:14,502 Speaker 1: This is the official broadcaster. 571 00:28:14,621 --> 00:28:16,381 Speaker 2: You absolutely have to. This is how it works. It's 572 00:28:16,422 --> 00:28:17,901 Speaker 2: always been done like this, so on and so on 573 00:28:17,942 --> 00:28:20,262 Speaker 2: and so on, and there's just a whole lot of people, 574 00:28:20,422 --> 00:28:22,941 Speaker 2: powerful people, it has to be said, who are able 575 00:28:22,982 --> 00:28:26,061 Speaker 2: to do it just going not gonna don't like you, 576 00:28:26,462 --> 00:28:27,221 Speaker 2: that's not okay. 577 00:28:27,581 --> 00:28:29,782 Speaker 1: On that note, I've got a little announcement. For the 578 00:28:29,782 --> 00:28:33,101 Speaker 1: first time in out Loud history, I am changing my 579 00:28:33,141 --> 00:28:36,941 Speaker 1: word of the Year. Oh so I should have known 580 00:28:37,022 --> 00:28:40,142 Speaker 1: there was a problem when because out Loud as we 581 00:28:40,182 --> 00:28:42,741 Speaker 1: record our word of the Year episode just before we 582 00:28:42,782 --> 00:28:44,542 Speaker 1: go off on Christmas break, can we release it on 583 00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:48,142 Speaker 1: news Day? As is tradition but when I was away, 584 00:28:48,661 --> 00:28:50,822 Speaker 1: even before the episode came out, I couldn't remember what 585 00:28:50,822 --> 00:28:51,382 Speaker 1: the word is. 586 00:28:51,862 --> 00:28:55,502 Speaker 3: I actually can't remember right now. It was make okay mate. 587 00:28:55,502 --> 00:28:57,782 Speaker 1: I don't want that word a bit. I refuse to 588 00:28:57,822 --> 00:29:00,862 Speaker 1: have it. My word is going to be let them. 589 00:29:01,182 --> 00:29:03,902 Speaker 1: And I know I'm breaking two rules. Not only am 590 00:29:03,902 --> 00:29:06,462 Speaker 1: I changing my word, but I'm usually the stickler for 591 00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:08,462 Speaker 1: you can't have more than one word. It can all 592 00:29:08,502 --> 00:29:11,502 Speaker 1: be made one word with a hyphen. And I didn't 593 00:29:11,542 --> 00:29:14,542 Speaker 1: know about let them before, and I've just found myself 594 00:29:14,702 --> 00:29:17,982 Speaker 1: using that so much in January when I couldn't remember 595 00:29:18,022 --> 00:29:20,062 Speaker 1: what my other word was. So I'm changing. 596 00:29:20,102 --> 00:29:23,862 Speaker 2: Them them, turn it into one word, let them, leave them, 597 00:29:23,942 --> 00:29:24,302 Speaker 2: let them. 598 00:29:24,342 --> 00:29:25,862 Speaker 3: We should say, if you missed our word of the 599 00:29:25,902 --> 00:29:28,542 Speaker 3: Year episode, we'll have a link in our show notes. 600 00:29:28,582 --> 00:29:30,822 Speaker 3: And apparently there are new rules and you can just 601 00:29:30,942 --> 00:29:36,461 Speaker 3: choose a word now I need. The new season of 602 00:29:36,502 --> 00:29:39,661 Speaker 3: I'm a Celebrity premiered last night, and no one recognized 603 00:29:39,661 --> 00:29:42,702 Speaker 3: each other. That's hyperbolic, but in an article for news 604 00:29:42,742 --> 00:29:45,342 Speaker 3: dot com dot Au, Nick Bond writes it makes for 605 00:29:45,382 --> 00:29:48,021 Speaker 3: an awkward I'm a celeb premiere when even the stars 606 00:29:48,022 --> 00:29:51,781 Speaker 3: don't recognize each other. Samantha, who featured on Married at 607 00:29:51,782 --> 00:29:54,741 Speaker 3: First Sight, asked sam Ti Day, the former captain of 608 00:29:54,742 --> 00:30:00,382 Speaker 3: the Brisbane Broncos, so what's your talent? I really like 609 00:30:00,462 --> 00:30:02,382 Speaker 3: the use of the word in there. 610 00:30:02,742 --> 00:30:05,142 Speaker 2: But before you went in, don't you reckon? You'd bone 611 00:30:05,222 --> 00:30:08,062 Speaker 2: up on like every possible person who might be in there, 612 00:30:08,102 --> 00:30:09,502 Speaker 2: so you could go sah. 613 00:30:09,782 --> 00:30:11,981 Speaker 3: Holly, you could have done that and you still wouldn't 614 00:30:11,982 --> 00:30:13,742 Speaker 3: have come across some of these. I'm going to throw 615 00:30:13,782 --> 00:30:18,942 Speaker 3: some names at you. Zach Towhey, guess, come on, guess. 616 00:30:19,422 --> 00:30:24,102 Speaker 2: Zach Towey. Does he have a you know what? 617 00:30:24,222 --> 00:30:29,262 Speaker 3: He might, but he's an AFL player, Tina proves, Come on. 618 00:30:29,222 --> 00:30:31,102 Speaker 1: Tina influencers. 619 00:30:31,422 --> 00:30:32,102 Speaker 2: I feel bad. 620 00:30:32,262 --> 00:30:35,741 Speaker 3: Love Island contestant probably has more flowers than both of 621 00:30:35,742 --> 00:30:40,742 Speaker 3: you put together on Instagram. I'm sure going Holy yeah right, 622 00:30:42,262 --> 00:30:47,461 Speaker 3: Max Blegda never heard he's so famous. He is a 623 00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:50,542 Speaker 3: UK TikTok creator with you half a million followers or something. 624 00:30:50,982 --> 00:30:53,902 Speaker 3: There's also Nikky Buckley. What do I feel like? You know? 625 00:30:54,102 --> 00:30:54,662 Speaker 1: Sale of the. 626 00:30:54,622 --> 00:31:00,302 Speaker 2: Century Maddie j who he is from Lovely Chat podcaster 627 00:31:00,502 --> 00:31:00,982 Speaker 2: married to. 628 00:31:02,742 --> 00:31:08,902 Speaker 3: Shana Jack No decorator, olympian. Oh you're thinking of I 629 00:31:08,942 --> 00:31:12,942 Speaker 3: know she thinks she's on a TV Who's on the block. 630 00:31:13,462 --> 00:31:16,421 Speaker 2: Blaze, she'd be quite different. 631 00:31:17,462 --> 00:31:21,941 Speaker 3: Shana Jack Swims, Reggie Bird. Do we remember Reggie? She 632 00:31:22,022 --> 00:31:22,622 Speaker 3: won Big Brother? 633 00:31:23,222 --> 00:31:27,262 Speaker 1: Oh Reggie? I remember that Reggie lost her sight, didn't 634 00:31:27,262 --> 00:31:28,022 Speaker 1: she recently? 635 00:31:28,062 --> 00:31:29,702 Speaker 3: She's got a degenerate condition. 636 00:31:29,902 --> 00:31:32,542 Speaker 1: Wow, that'll make it a challenge in the jungle. Maybe 637 00:31:32,582 --> 00:31:35,021 Speaker 1: it'll be easier because she doesn't have to look at 638 00:31:35,022 --> 00:31:35,622 Speaker 1: what she's eating. 639 00:31:35,622 --> 00:31:38,862 Speaker 3: She can just eat you exactly. Right point is there's 640 00:31:38,862 --> 00:31:42,222 Speaker 3: a lot of diversity in the fame element. My pet 641 00:31:42,262 --> 00:31:44,742 Speaker 3: hate is when I see people comment on a news 642 00:31:44,862 --> 00:31:47,822 Speaker 3: article about a famous person with who, because I look 643 00:31:47,862 --> 00:31:50,222 Speaker 3: it up, and also it's a flex you're trying to say, 644 00:31:50,462 --> 00:31:52,062 Speaker 3: like I don't even know who that is. 645 00:31:52,182 --> 00:31:54,981 Speaker 1: I think you're being harsh. I often will be reading 646 00:31:55,542 --> 00:31:58,622 Speaker 1: something or looking at a picture of someone, and in 647 00:31:58,622 --> 00:32:01,102 Speaker 1: my mind will be the sentence, I do not know 648 00:32:01,142 --> 00:32:01,702 Speaker 1: that person. 649 00:32:02,702 --> 00:32:06,382 Speaker 3: That it's not a nice thing to say who. 650 00:32:06,542 --> 00:32:08,941 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it in a disparaging way. I'm just 651 00:32:09,102 --> 00:32:12,142 Speaker 1: like recognizing the complete fragmentation of fame. 652 00:32:12,262 --> 00:32:14,502 Speaker 3: And that's what this speaks to, is that fame. I 653 00:32:14,542 --> 00:32:16,822 Speaker 3: think it's what makes the show really interesting. The only 654 00:32:16,902 --> 00:32:20,782 Speaker 3: household name in this is Dave Hughes Cusey, but it 655 00:32:20,902 --> 00:32:25,102 Speaker 3: speaks to how fame means something different to every generation. 656 00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:27,542 Speaker 3: I love the idea of a household like your household, Holly. 657 00:32:27,782 --> 00:32:30,022 Speaker 3: I guarantee that your kids know these people. 658 00:32:30,062 --> 00:32:32,102 Speaker 1: I do think jen z Ed's would even know who 659 00:32:32,182 --> 00:32:32,781 Speaker 1: Hughes he was. 660 00:32:33,422 --> 00:32:33,902 Speaker 3: No true. 661 00:32:33,942 --> 00:32:35,902 Speaker 2: I tell Brent all the time that the most embarrassing 662 00:32:35,942 --> 00:32:37,742 Speaker 2: thing he says all the time it's never heard of them. 663 00:32:37,661 --> 00:32:38,582 Speaker 1: Which is what he says. 664 00:32:39,022 --> 00:32:40,942 Speaker 2: It will be said many times during the Hottest one 665 00:32:40,982 --> 00:32:45,582 Speaker 2: hundred countdown. He'll be like Sabrina Carpenter, never heard of them? Like, mate, 666 00:32:46,062 --> 00:32:47,302 Speaker 2: shut up, it's embarrassed. 667 00:32:47,342 --> 00:32:49,701 Speaker 3: I always think, though you turn up in the jungle, 668 00:32:49,982 --> 00:32:52,981 Speaker 3: you don't recognize anyone. How do you ask a question? 669 00:32:53,262 --> 00:32:54,742 Speaker 3: I like the what's your talents? 670 00:32:54,742 --> 00:32:55,502 Speaker 1: Your talent that's great. 671 00:32:55,502 --> 00:32:58,742 Speaker 3: I like that in a moment Harry and Meghan's big 672 00:32:58,862 --> 00:33:01,661 Speaker 3: cover story, we will and by that I mean Holly 673 00:33:01,661 --> 00:33:04,742 Speaker 3: and Maya will tell you everything you need to know about. 674 00:33:04,462 --> 00:33:06,382 Speaker 2: It out loud as. 675 00:33:06,422 --> 00:33:08,181 Speaker 1: If you want to listen to us every day of 676 00:33:08,222 --> 00:33:10,981 Speaker 1: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on 677 00:33:11,062 --> 00:33:14,702 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a mum and mea subscriber. 678 00:33:15,062 --> 00:33:17,221 Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and 679 00:33:17,262 --> 00:33:19,622 Speaker 1: support us, and a big thank you to all our 680 00:33:19,661 --> 00:33:28,661 Speaker 1: current subscribers. Five years after Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's 681 00:33:28,822 --> 00:33:33,022 Speaker 1: Royal exit, Vanity Fair has published an extensive eight thousand 682 00:33:33,062 --> 00:33:35,582 Speaker 1: word cover story, which is a lot of words just 683 00:33:35,622 --> 00:33:39,582 Speaker 1: for ret novella. Yeah, that is actually your regular cover 684 00:33:39,661 --> 00:33:43,062 Speaker 1: story or your regular feature online would probably be about 685 00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:45,421 Speaker 1: two thousand words, maybe three thousand words if it was 686 00:33:45,502 --> 00:33:48,421 Speaker 1: very chunky, And the most interesting part about this story 687 00:33:48,542 --> 00:33:50,902 Speaker 1: is that there were no interviews granted by the actual 688 00:33:50,942 --> 00:33:55,862 Speaker 1: couple themselves, but this story examines their post royal life 689 00:33:55,902 --> 00:33:59,222 Speaker 1: and it was obviously time to coincide with the scheduled 690 00:33:59,822 --> 00:34:02,622 Speaker 1: launch of her new show on Netflix, which was postponed 691 00:34:02,661 --> 00:34:04,782 Speaker 1: for a couple of months because of the bushfires. 692 00:34:05,502 --> 00:34:06,461 Speaker 3: It was written by. 693 00:34:06,302 --> 00:34:10,062 Speaker 1: Contributing editor and Appeal, and it interviewed lots some lots 694 00:34:10,062 --> 00:34:14,582 Speaker 1: of people who've worked with them since they moved to 695 00:34:14,942 --> 00:34:19,022 Speaker 1: America or who know them, and it sort of is 696 00:34:19,062 --> 00:34:21,942 Speaker 1: all about how they've navigated this transition over the. 697 00:34:22,142 --> 00:34:23,862 Speaker 3: Have you actually read eight thousand. 698 00:34:23,622 --> 00:34:24,702 Speaker 1: Well every word? 699 00:34:24,862 --> 00:34:25,821 Speaker 3: Are you kidding about? You? 700 00:34:25,862 --> 00:34:26,502 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 701 00:34:26,622 --> 00:34:27,502 Speaker 3: I need to confess. 702 00:34:27,661 --> 00:34:29,661 Speaker 1: I broke out thumbs clicking on it. 703 00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:31,861 Speaker 3: I looked at it and I went, Jesse, you're going 704 00:34:31,942 --> 00:34:34,661 Speaker 3: to die one day and you don't want to spend Okay, Yeah. 705 00:34:34,661 --> 00:34:38,821 Speaker 2: Twenty five cover line was American Hustlers, which I think is. 706 00:34:38,982 --> 00:34:40,902 Speaker 3: I like to cover. I thought that was interesting, but 707 00:34:40,942 --> 00:34:43,181 Speaker 3: I went, life's too short, so I thought you'd fill 708 00:34:43,181 --> 00:34:43,382 Speaker 3: me in. 709 00:34:43,542 --> 00:34:45,422 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the cover was a pap shot of the 710 00:34:45,422 --> 00:34:49,542 Speaker 1: two of them in Sunny's on some public event. I'm 711 00:34:49,542 --> 00:34:51,542 Speaker 1: going to give you the five takeaways so you don't 712 00:34:51,542 --> 00:34:56,542 Speaker 1: have to read it first. One was all about workplace drama. 713 00:34:56,661 --> 00:34:59,301 Speaker 1: So there's a source that described Megan's management style as 714 00:34:59,422 --> 00:35:02,782 Speaker 1: mean girls teenager, suggesting that she'd undermine employees by talking 715 00:35:02,822 --> 00:35:04,981 Speaker 1: behind their back and gnawing at their sense of self 716 00:35:05,582 --> 00:35:09,542 Speaker 1: and multiple employees told Vanity Fair that they reportedly took 717 00:35:09,622 --> 00:35:12,861 Speaker 1: extended breaks or underwent therapy after working with her. I 718 00:35:12,862 --> 00:35:13,982 Speaker 1: think everyone should have therapy. 719 00:35:13,982 --> 00:35:16,901 Speaker 3: Anyways, were there multiple sources? Was that one source like how. 720 00:35:16,942 --> 00:35:18,942 Speaker 1: Baucs of sources through the whole thing, but a lot 721 00:35:18,982 --> 00:35:21,261 Speaker 1: of them were almost all of them were anonymous. So 722 00:35:21,342 --> 00:35:23,261 Speaker 1: you have to take all of this with a big 723 00:35:23,302 --> 00:35:26,262 Speaker 1: pinch of salt ok. The second theme of this article 724 00:35:26,542 --> 00:35:30,382 Speaker 1: was about the production chaos around the podcast that they 725 00:35:30,582 --> 00:35:33,502 Speaker 1: or that she recorded with Spotify. They signed you might 726 00:35:33,502 --> 00:35:36,022 Speaker 1: remember one hundred million dollar deal I think, with Spotify 727 00:35:36,701 --> 00:35:41,622 Speaker 1: to produce some podcasts. Megan produced a podcast called Archetypes, 728 00:35:41,661 --> 00:35:45,741 Speaker 1: which we know, and this article talked about people who 729 00:35:45,822 --> 00:35:48,862 Speaker 1: worked at Spotify, saying that she'd agree to provocative ideas 730 00:35:49,342 --> 00:35:51,902 Speaker 1: but then walk them back on the show. So like, 731 00:35:51,942 --> 00:35:54,862 Speaker 1: one episode was meant to be about the word slut 732 00:35:54,982 --> 00:35:57,942 Speaker 1: as being this archetype that women are called, but she 733 00:35:57,982 --> 00:35:59,741 Speaker 1: didn't want to say the word slut. She didn't want 734 00:35:59,741 --> 00:36:02,221 Speaker 1: to say the word bitch, So the bitch episode was 735 00:36:02,261 --> 00:36:03,021 Speaker 1: called the b word. 736 00:36:03,181 --> 00:36:05,742 Speaker 2: I thought this was a bit unfair, too, right, because 737 00:36:06,462 --> 00:36:08,221 Speaker 2: one of the things that must be very hard to 738 00:36:08,221 --> 00:36:09,982 Speaker 2: be Megan and Harry and I know that like the 739 00:36:10,022 --> 00:36:13,942 Speaker 2: world's smallest violin, but you would know that everything you 740 00:36:13,982 --> 00:36:17,542 Speaker 2: said in any setting, any creative brainstorm session, anything with 741 00:36:17,622 --> 00:36:21,062 Speaker 2: any employees, that Vanity Fair and every other media publication 742 00:36:21,142 --> 00:36:21,942 Speaker 2: lord would love to know. 743 00:36:22,022 --> 00:36:22,181 Speaker 1: Right. 744 00:36:22,261 --> 00:36:25,381 Speaker 2: So imagine that we're having a brainstorming session about what's 745 00:36:25,422 --> 00:36:27,261 Speaker 2: a new podcast going to be, and I have a 746 00:36:27,342 --> 00:36:30,142 Speaker 2: terrible idea and you have a worse idea, Jesse, because 747 00:36:30,142 --> 00:36:32,741 Speaker 2: that would definitely happen, and Mia just has an embarrassing 748 00:36:32,781 --> 00:36:33,821 Speaker 2: idea because. 749 00:36:33,902 --> 00:36:34,902 Speaker 1: The idea is just lame. 750 00:36:35,382 --> 00:36:37,902 Speaker 2: It's like, this is what that is, you know what 751 00:36:37,902 --> 00:36:39,981 Speaker 2: I mean, It's like they can't do that because they're 752 00:36:40,022 --> 00:36:42,221 Speaker 2: so high risk. Every would like, can you believe that 753 00:36:42,422 --> 00:36:45,982 Speaker 2: Mia Friedman said that thing? You know? And or the 754 00:36:46,102 --> 00:36:48,981 Speaker 2: other thing was I can picture this very clearly too, 755 00:36:49,261 --> 00:36:52,902 Speaker 2: that they would enthusiastically say because Hattery, for example, apparently 756 00:36:52,902 --> 00:36:56,342 Speaker 2: wanted to do one where he interviewed high profile sociopaths, 757 00:36:56,342 --> 00:36:59,301 Speaker 2: including Vladimir Putin, Mark Zuckerberg. 758 00:36:59,942 --> 00:37:00,982 Speaker 3: That sounds like a great. 759 00:37:01,142 --> 00:37:03,142 Speaker 1: This was actually my favorite thing in the whole interview. 760 00:37:03,181 --> 00:37:05,421 Speaker 1: For people who've ever worked on podcasts or who've worked 761 00:37:05,422 --> 00:37:08,102 Speaker 1: in media, trying to learn interviews and particularly trying to 762 00:37:08,142 --> 00:37:11,142 Speaker 1: learn podcast guests in this very out of market is challenging, right, 763 00:37:11,462 --> 00:37:15,741 Speaker 1: So a lot of very hard. So the idea that 764 00:37:15,822 --> 00:37:19,341 Speaker 1: Harry wanted to make this podcast about was about men 765 00:37:19,382 --> 00:37:22,181 Speaker 1: who have traumatic events happened to them in the childhood. 766 00:37:22,221 --> 00:37:24,661 Speaker 1: Like he said, my mother was basically murdered, My life 767 00:37:24,741 --> 00:37:28,822 Speaker 1: was traumatic. Donald Trump Putin, all these other people, perhaps 768 00:37:28,862 --> 00:37:31,422 Speaker 1: they had traumatic events, but what made me grow up 769 00:37:31,462 --> 00:37:33,382 Speaker 1: into a lovely guy and them grow up and to 770 00:37:33,422 --> 00:37:36,741 Speaker 1: be sociopaths. And the quote from a source was like 771 00:37:36,982 --> 00:37:41,022 Speaker 1: this provided somewhat of a booking challenge to the producers. 772 00:37:41,342 --> 00:37:44,381 Speaker 3: Hello, will you be on my podcast called I'm a Sociopath? 773 00:37:44,582 --> 00:37:45,142 Speaker 1: Exactly? 774 00:37:45,542 --> 00:37:47,822 Speaker 2: But also again I have a bit of sympathy because 775 00:37:47,862 --> 00:37:50,382 Speaker 2: you know, you often do have really big, bold ideas 776 00:37:50,382 --> 00:37:52,102 Speaker 2: and then you think them through and you're like, we 777 00:37:52,221 --> 00:37:53,421 Speaker 2: would get annihilated. 778 00:37:53,502 --> 00:37:55,622 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but it's also. 779 00:37:55,542 --> 00:37:58,181 Speaker 1: Just not possible, you know what I mean? So I 780 00:37:58,181 --> 00:38:01,422 Speaker 1: think what it all spoke to is the rush. And 781 00:38:01,462 --> 00:38:04,181 Speaker 1: this wasn't Harry and Meghan's fault. The check books were 782 00:38:04,221 --> 00:38:06,781 Speaker 1: out to say, we'll throw all this money at you. 783 00:38:07,102 --> 00:38:10,502 Speaker 1: Netflix did the same, and then it was like, oh, 784 00:38:10,542 --> 00:38:13,261 Speaker 1: what will you actually do? And is anyone interested in 785 00:38:13,302 --> 00:38:15,741 Speaker 1: what you have to say if it's not talking about 786 00:38:15,741 --> 00:38:20,302 Speaker 1: the royal family, which you've ostensibly left. Also the relationship 787 00:38:20,382 --> 00:38:24,102 Speaker 1: dynamic between them. A source described their relationship as intensely passionate. 788 00:38:24,342 --> 00:38:26,221 Speaker 1: They are so hot for each other, the way they 789 00:38:26,261 --> 00:38:28,821 Speaker 1: look at each other. I should probably not be here 790 00:38:28,942 --> 00:38:30,502 Speaker 1: right now. One person said. 791 00:38:30,542 --> 00:38:32,661 Speaker 2: I think that's accurate. Whenever you see them look at 792 00:38:32,701 --> 00:38:34,102 Speaker 2: each other. They look at each other like that. 793 00:38:34,261 --> 00:38:36,102 Speaker 1: But then others said that it was a little bit 794 00:38:36,261 --> 00:38:40,421 Speaker 1: oedipus that Megan was essentially reparenting Harry and that he 795 00:38:40,502 --> 00:38:42,982 Speaker 1: was trying to save her in the way that he 796 00:38:43,022 --> 00:38:45,902 Speaker 1: couldn't save his mother. There was also a very interesting 797 00:38:46,142 --> 00:38:51,102 Speaker 1: anecdote in there about Megan allegedly shopping a potential memoir 798 00:38:51,701 --> 00:38:56,381 Speaker 1: about a divorce. If she were to get divorced, would 799 00:38:56,462 --> 00:39:00,382 Speaker 1: people be interested in a divorce memoir from her? So 800 00:39:00,422 --> 00:39:03,262 Speaker 1: that was interesting, It's weird, and there was no smoking 801 00:39:03,302 --> 00:39:05,622 Speaker 1: guns in this right, so there was nothing that we 802 00:39:05,701 --> 00:39:09,102 Speaker 1: haven't heard before. It was just really confirmation of all 803 00:39:09,142 --> 00:39:12,861 Speaker 1: of those kind of rumors that they're difficult to work with, 804 00:39:12,902 --> 00:39:14,861 Speaker 1: that they think they know best, that they're a bit 805 00:39:15,022 --> 00:39:17,341 Speaker 1: clueless when it comes to making the world. 806 00:39:17,142 --> 00:39:19,181 Speaker 3: Need another profile on Meghan and Harry. 807 00:39:19,582 --> 00:39:22,022 Speaker 2: I ask the same question because one of the things 808 00:39:22,062 --> 00:39:23,982 Speaker 2: that I think is really interesting about this because yes, 809 00:39:24,022 --> 00:39:26,582 Speaker 2: it's basically a lot of mean spirited rumors stitch together 810 00:39:26,781 --> 00:39:29,022 Speaker 2: and a lot of stuff we've heard already. As Mia said, 811 00:39:30,142 --> 00:39:33,261 Speaker 2: So in twenty seventeen, Megan did a proper cover with 812 00:39:33,342 --> 00:39:36,262 Speaker 2: Vanity Fair. Normally a Vanity Fair cover that features celebrity, 813 00:39:36,302 --> 00:39:39,062 Speaker 2: not always but very often is an agreed shoot. An 814 00:39:39,062 --> 00:39:42,261 Speaker 2: Illeblewitch shot it. It cost a bajillion dollars, a long 815 00:39:42,342 --> 00:39:45,582 Speaker 2: form interview. The journalist travels with you, hangs around like 816 00:39:45,622 --> 00:39:48,702 Speaker 2: it's success. It's access to access, and it's deeply sourced 817 00:39:48,741 --> 00:39:50,341 Speaker 2: and it's prestigious. 818 00:39:50,422 --> 00:39:51,701 Speaker 1: And it used to have to be that you'd only 819 00:39:51,701 --> 00:39:54,022 Speaker 1: get a Vanity Fair cover if you gave them something 820 00:39:54,142 --> 00:39:57,181 Speaker 1: a big exclusive, like will you talk about the miscarriage 821 00:39:57,181 --> 00:39:59,542 Speaker 1: no one you had or the divorce like Jennifer Aniston 822 00:39:59,622 --> 00:40:00,861 Speaker 1: famously after Brad So. 823 00:40:00,822 --> 00:40:02,542 Speaker 2: When Meghan did that, it was the first time she'd 824 00:40:02,582 --> 00:40:05,301 Speaker 2: ever spoken publicly about Harry. What is interesting to me 825 00:40:05,582 --> 00:40:08,181 Speaker 2: is that we've gone from that, you know, like her 826 00:40:08,261 --> 00:40:11,542 Speaker 2: giving full access to them, to Vanity Fair running basically 827 00:40:11,542 --> 00:40:13,622 Speaker 2: what in the business we'd call it right around, which 828 00:40:13,661 --> 00:40:16,181 Speaker 2: is they've got a random picture of them, made it 829 00:40:16,221 --> 00:40:18,181 Speaker 2: look really lovely and glossy, slapped it on the cover, 830 00:40:18,221 --> 00:40:20,582 Speaker 2: and then just wrote around everything we've already heard. And 831 00:40:20,622 --> 00:40:24,942 Speaker 2: it's like, I wouldn't blame them for being really pissed 832 00:40:24,942 --> 00:40:27,902 Speaker 2: off about that, because this is an exact example of 833 00:40:27,902 --> 00:40:30,181 Speaker 2: why they hate the media, right even the media who 834 00:40:30,302 --> 00:40:34,062 Speaker 2: are supposedly the most credible, the ones who are on 835 00:40:34,181 --> 00:40:36,701 Speaker 2: their side and inverted commas. Clearly they're not anymore. 836 00:40:36,781 --> 00:40:39,502 Speaker 3: And remember they did give access Megan in particular, did 837 00:40:39,502 --> 00:40:42,462 Speaker 3: give access to the cut, and they wrote the most 838 00:40:43,102 --> 00:40:45,861 Speaker 3: snarky It wasn't actually I thought it. 839 00:40:46,221 --> 00:40:47,901 Speaker 1: I don't think it was. I think that was an 840 00:40:47,902 --> 00:40:51,862 Speaker 1: interesting story. But the criticism that's made is that they've 841 00:40:51,902 --> 00:40:56,142 Speaker 1: never really understood that the media is not just pr 842 00:40:56,822 --> 00:40:58,502 Speaker 1: the media is independent. 843 00:40:58,661 --> 00:41:01,142 Speaker 3: And I think they understand that. I think they get 844 00:41:01,181 --> 00:41:03,381 Speaker 3: taught that lesson eighty five times a week. 845 00:41:03,462 --> 00:41:05,261 Speaker 2: But the problem is it's left them with nowhere to 846 00:41:05,302 --> 00:41:07,542 Speaker 2: go to promote their genuine things. 847 00:41:07,582 --> 00:41:08,381 Speaker 1: But that's why she's back. 848 00:41:08,622 --> 00:41:13,182 Speaker 2: Yes, so you would imagine for a major Netflix launch 849 00:41:13,221 --> 00:41:15,542 Speaker 2: show as Megan hasn't. We know, we spoke last week 850 00:41:15,542 --> 00:41:17,502 Speaker 2: about how it's been pushed from January to March because 851 00:41:17,502 --> 00:41:20,942 Speaker 2: of the LA fires. She would be doing traditional media. 852 00:41:20,982 --> 00:41:23,462 Speaker 2: She would be doing a Vanity Fair cover, for example, 853 00:41:23,502 --> 00:41:25,461 Speaker 2: or a People cover, which she still made. People still 854 00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:26,622 Speaker 2: do seem to be on side. 855 00:41:26,902 --> 00:41:27,062 Speaker 4: Well. 856 00:41:27,221 --> 00:41:29,462 Speaker 2: She would be doing talk show appearances. She would be 857 00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:31,341 Speaker 2: doing all kinds of things she isn't going to do 858 00:41:31,382 --> 00:41:34,342 Speaker 2: any of that, because she and Harry have very clearly 859 00:41:34,462 --> 00:41:37,662 Speaker 2: drawn the lines of the media haters for very good reason. 860 00:41:37,982 --> 00:41:40,102 Speaker 2: But it kind of puts them in a difficult position then, 861 00:41:40,181 --> 00:41:42,261 Speaker 2: because they're celebrities. 862 00:41:42,342 --> 00:41:44,102 Speaker 3: I wonder if there's a world in which they did 863 00:41:44,142 --> 00:41:46,542 Speaker 3: give Vanity Fair something and then they took it back 864 00:41:46,582 --> 00:41:48,342 Speaker 3: after the LA fires. Is that possible? 865 00:41:48,542 --> 00:41:51,062 Speaker 1: No, because the problem with magazines is that they're on 866 00:41:51,181 --> 00:41:54,902 Speaker 1: very long, laid times. But also when you're a Netflix, 867 00:41:54,982 --> 00:41:58,542 Speaker 1: I mean, your talent is contractually obliged to promote things. 868 00:41:58,582 --> 00:42:01,901 Speaker 1: It's interesting because with the Polo documentary that Harry did 869 00:42:01,982 --> 00:42:05,781 Speaker 1: that came out just before Christmas, they didn't seem to 870 00:42:05,822 --> 00:42:08,022 Speaker 1: promote it. They didn't do interviews, they didn't Maybe this 871 00:42:08,102 --> 00:42:10,301 Speaker 1: is written into their contract that they wanted, but it 872 00:42:10,382 --> 00:42:12,542 Speaker 1: starts looking like not a very good deal, which is 873 00:42:12,542 --> 00:42:14,701 Speaker 1: what all the trade press has been saying for a 874 00:42:14,741 --> 00:42:16,741 Speaker 1: really long time that it hasn't been a good deal, 875 00:42:16,982 --> 00:42:20,742 Speaker 1: which is why Spotify didn't renew. She's doing a new podcast, however, 876 00:42:20,822 --> 00:42:25,741 Speaker 1: with another podcast company called Limonata. They want a platform 877 00:42:25,982 --> 00:42:30,181 Speaker 1: and they want fame, but they don't really have a 878 00:42:30,181 --> 00:42:33,142 Speaker 1: lot to say that people are interested in, because what 879 00:42:33,142 --> 00:42:35,782 Speaker 1: people are interested in. Is not Megan talking about feminism. 880 00:42:35,781 --> 00:42:38,542 Speaker 1: It's Megan talking about how hideous it was to be 881 00:42:38,582 --> 00:42:41,782 Speaker 1: inside the royal family, and understandably she doesn't do that anymore. 882 00:42:41,822 --> 00:42:45,261 Speaker 2: I disagree. I would read the absolute shit out of 883 00:42:45,302 --> 00:42:47,661 Speaker 2: a long form Vanity Fair profile where I got to 884 00:42:47,661 --> 00:42:50,181 Speaker 2: see inside Meghan's house, where I got to see, you know, 885 00:42:50,261 --> 00:42:52,741 Speaker 2: like day in the life he stuff. I'm tired of 886 00:42:52,741 --> 00:42:54,942 Speaker 2: all the royal gossip, like I've heard it all, all 887 00:42:54,982 --> 00:42:58,022 Speaker 2: those stories. I mean, Harry wrote an entire book about that, 888 00:42:58,502 --> 00:43:00,821 Speaker 2: very good book that was all about that. So now 889 00:43:00,982 --> 00:43:02,982 Speaker 2: I still think in the same way, I'm interested in 890 00:43:03,302 --> 00:43:05,382 Speaker 2: all kinds of celebrities. I would still want to peak, 891 00:43:05,422 --> 00:43:10,062 Speaker 2: but they understandably do not want to show. To the 892 00:43:10,142 --> 00:43:11,901 Speaker 2: end of our first show in our new home, how 893 00:43:11,902 --> 00:43:12,661 Speaker 2: do we feel it went. 894 00:43:12,661 --> 00:43:17,341 Speaker 1: Friends by, I think it was great. I'll come back 895 00:43:17,342 --> 00:43:19,462 Speaker 1: again tomorrow, which. 896 00:43:19,302 --> 00:43:21,582 Speaker 2: Is lucky because we will. As we mentioned, we back 897 00:43:21,582 --> 00:43:25,021 Speaker 2: again tomorrow to talk about the inauguration. A massive thank 898 00:43:25,062 --> 00:43:26,862 Speaker 2: you to all of you out louders for listening to 899 00:43:26,942 --> 00:43:29,542 Speaker 2: our show today and to our fabulous team for putting 900 00:43:29,582 --> 00:43:31,861 Speaker 2: it together in our new home. We're going to be 901 00:43:31,862 --> 00:43:32,942 Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow. 902 00:43:33,342 --> 00:43:38,062 Speaker 3: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. 903 00:43:38,302 --> 00:43:40,462 Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us, 904 00:43:40,701 --> 00:43:43,502 Speaker 3: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way 905 00:43:43,542 --> 00:43:46,102 Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description. 906 00:43:47,102 --> 00:43:49,701 Speaker 3: Did you see the TikTok trend over the weekend of 907 00:43:49,822 --> 00:43:53,341 Speaker 3: the Americans who knew they were losing TikTok confessing to things. 908 00:43:53,181 --> 00:43:56,821 Speaker 1: Oh no, oh no, because I thought maybe for bush 909 00:43:56,822 --> 00:43:58,701 Speaker 1: and a bikini was part of that. Now I'm just 910 00:43:58,741 --> 00:44:00,301 Speaker 1: going I've got nothing. I'm gone now. 911 00:44:00,502 --> 00:44:02,982 Speaker 3: It was like a sound of trending sound and it 912 00:44:03,062 --> 00:44:06,102 Speaker 3: basically said, let's just say you would never have bought 913 00:44:06,142 --> 00:44:07,902 Speaker 3: any of those skin care products if you knew that. 914 00:44:07,942 --> 00:44:11,261 Speaker 3: I had to filter on someone else saying hundreds of 915 00:44:11,261 --> 00:44:13,661 Speaker 3: thousands of followers about glute exercises, and she's like, I 916 00:44:13,701 --> 00:44:14,382 Speaker 3: have a baby, l. 917 00:44:14,741 --> 00:44:17,462 Speaker 1: Oh, I love like everyone wearing slightly short sighted. 918 00:44:18,342 --> 00:44:19,102 Speaker 3: That's what I'm gonna. 919 00:44:19,142 --> 00:44:19,982 Speaker 1: I'm like, damn it. 920 00:44:21,382 --> 00:44:25,341 Speaker 3: And then I actually got here's a squat and it's 921 00:44:25,422 --> 00:44:27,982 Speaker 3: like no, it's no more squats.