1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,254 Speaker 1: You're listening Tea a Muma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,134 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:18,894 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,014 --> 00:00:25,934 Speaker 2: Hey, I'm Taylorstrano. This is Mumma Mer's twice daily news podcast, 5 00:00:25,974 --> 00:00:30,414 Speaker 2: The Quickie. In the last seventy two hours, the world 6 00:00:30,454 --> 00:00:34,374 Speaker 2: has been moved by images coming out of Gaza. Babies 7 00:00:34,454 --> 00:00:38,814 Speaker 2: with swollen bellies, lacking vital nutrition, mothers too weak to 8 00:00:38,814 --> 00:00:42,934 Speaker 2: feed them. Children literally reduce to skin and bone. As 9 00:00:42,974 --> 00:00:47,854 Speaker 2: Palestinians hunger for food and justice, The situation has reached 10 00:00:47,894 --> 00:00:51,214 Speaker 2: another deadly turning point, the death told due to starvation 11 00:00:51,454 --> 00:00:55,534 Speaker 2: rising as Israel announces tactical pauses to allow small windows 12 00:00:55,534 --> 00:00:59,614 Speaker 2: for aid to reach those in need. Meanwhile, inside Australia, 13 00:00:59,654 --> 00:01:02,414 Speaker 2: political pressure builds to act on what we're seeing out 14 00:01:02,414 --> 00:01:06,534 Speaker 2: of Gaza. So where to from here and what can 15 00:01:06,574 --> 00:01:10,134 Speaker 2: you do at home before we get there. Here's Murphy 16 00:01:10,174 --> 00:01:13,174 Speaker 2: with the latest from The Quickie newsroom for Tuesday, July 17 00:01:13,294 --> 00:01:14,094 Speaker 2: twenty nine. 18 00:01:14,334 --> 00:01:17,494 Speaker 1: Thanks Taylor. US President Donald Trump says he's setting a 19 00:01:17,534 --> 00:01:20,574 Speaker 1: new ten or twelve day deadline for Russia over its 20 00:01:20,574 --> 00:01:24,534 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine. His frustration with Russian president Vladimir Putin 21 00:01:24,614 --> 00:01:27,814 Speaker 1: for prolonging fighting between the two sides becoming more evident. 22 00:01:28,414 --> 00:01:31,694 Speaker 1: Speaking in Scotland, where he's holding meetings with European leaders 23 00:01:31,694 --> 00:01:34,854 Speaker 1: and playing golf, Trump said he was disappointed in Putin 24 00:01:34,974 --> 00:01:37,574 Speaker 1: and shortening a fifty day deadline he'd said on the 25 00:01:37,614 --> 00:01:40,734 Speaker 1: issue earlier this month, saying there's no reason in waiting. 26 00:01:40,974 --> 00:01:43,574 Speaker 1: We just don't see any progress being made. He went 27 00:01:43,614 --> 00:01:45,574 Speaker 1: on to say he thinks he already knows the answer 28 00:01:45,574 --> 00:01:48,454 Speaker 1: to the shortened deadline and what's going to happen. There 29 00:01:48,494 --> 00:01:51,494 Speaker 1: was no immediate comment from the Kremlin. Before returning to 30 00:01:51,534 --> 00:01:54,134 Speaker 1: the White House in January, Trump, who views himself as 31 00:01:54,134 --> 00:01:56,574 Speaker 1: a peacemaker, had promised to end the three and a 32 00:01:56,614 --> 00:01:59,494 Speaker 1: half year old conflict within twenty four hours. He's now 33 00:01:59,534 --> 00:02:02,734 Speaker 1: threatened both sanctions on Russia and buyers of its exports 34 00:02:02,854 --> 00:02:06,694 Speaker 1: unless progress is made. Parents are being urged to vaccinate 35 00:02:06,734 --> 00:02:09,334 Speaker 1: their children against this season's flew out break. After a 36 00:02:09,334 --> 00:02:12,374 Speaker 1: time two year old girl died in wa the Toddlers 37 00:02:12,374 --> 00:02:15,774 Speaker 1: family wrote an open letter via the Immunization Foundation of 38 00:02:15,814 --> 00:02:20,134 Speaker 1: Australia describing how, after returning from an overseas holiday, their 39 00:02:20,174 --> 00:02:22,774 Speaker 1: little RB, who they called the heart of their home 40 00:02:23,134 --> 00:02:26,934 Speaker 1: deteriorated quickly from having a slight fever to being unresponsive 41 00:02:26,974 --> 00:02:29,974 Speaker 1: in just two days. They rushed her to hospital after 42 00:02:29,974 --> 00:02:33,454 Speaker 1: her fever spiked to over forty degrees and she began vomiting. 43 00:02:33,734 --> 00:02:36,934 Speaker 1: Before she could even receive any medication, she suffered a seizure. 44 00:02:37,254 --> 00:02:39,814 Speaker 1: She was transferred to the ICU, but her family says 45 00:02:39,854 --> 00:02:42,934 Speaker 1: they believe she was already lost at this point. Medical 46 00:02:42,974 --> 00:02:46,374 Speaker 1: experts are urging everyone to get a flu vaccination. Data 47 00:02:46,414 --> 00:02:49,614 Speaker 1: from the Australian Respiratory Surveillance Report shows one hundred and 48 00:02:49,694 --> 00:02:52,574 Speaker 1: eighty Ozsies have died from the flu between January and 49 00:02:52,614 --> 00:02:56,054 Speaker 1: April this year, a seventy three percent increase compared to 50 00:02:56,094 --> 00:02:58,734 Speaker 1: the same time last year. Two of those with children 51 00:02:58,814 --> 00:03:01,814 Speaker 1: under the age of sixteen. The flu vaccine is free 52 00:03:01,854 --> 00:03:04,574 Speaker 1: for children aged six months to five years, for adults 53 00:03:04,614 --> 00:03:08,174 Speaker 1: over sixty five, pregnant women, and Aboriginal and Torres Strait 54 00:03:08,214 --> 00:03:12,334 Speaker 1: Islander people. US President Donald Trump has asked a judge 55 00:03:12,374 --> 00:03:15,494 Speaker 1: to order a fast deposition for billionaire Rupert Murdock in 56 00:03:15,534 --> 00:03:19,014 Speaker 1: the president's defamation lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal over 57 00:03:19,054 --> 00:03:22,334 Speaker 1: its July seventeen article about Trump's relationship with the late 58 00:03:22,374 --> 00:03:26,534 Speaker 1: financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. On July eighteen, Trump 59 00:03:26,654 --> 00:03:29,814 Speaker 1: sued the news outlet, its owners, including Murdoch, and the 60 00:03:29,854 --> 00:03:33,214 Speaker 1: reporters who wrote the story, which claimed Trump's name was 61 00:03:33,214 --> 00:03:35,654 Speaker 1: signed on a two thousand and three birthday greeting for 62 00:03:35,734 --> 00:03:39,414 Speaker 1: Epstein that included a sexually suggestive drawing and a reference 63 00:03:39,454 --> 00:03:42,374 Speaker 1: to secrets they shared. In a court filing on Monday, 64 00:03:42,454 --> 00:03:45,174 Speaker 1: lawyers for Trump asked the federal court in Miami, Florida, 65 00:03:45,294 --> 00:03:48,174 Speaker 1: to compel ninety four year old Rupert Murdock to testify 66 00:03:48,254 --> 00:03:51,734 Speaker 1: within fifteen days, in part due to his advanced age. 67 00:03:51,974 --> 00:03:54,574 Speaker 1: Dal Jones, the Wall Street Journal's publisher, has said they 68 00:03:54,614 --> 00:03:58,014 Speaker 1: stand by its reporting and would vigorously defend itself against 69 00:03:58,014 --> 00:04:02,374 Speaker 1: the lawsuit. US comedian Mark Maron has paid fifty thousand 70 00:04:02,414 --> 00:04:05,334 Speaker 1: dollars US to use just one minute of a Taylor 71 00:04:05,374 --> 00:04:08,174 Speaker 1: Swift song in his stand up special. The comic felt 72 00:04:08,174 --> 00:04:11,014 Speaker 1: he needed bigger than the whole, a bonus track on 73 00:04:11,014 --> 00:04:14,374 Speaker 1: the three AM edition of Taylor's twenty twenty two album Midnights. 74 00:04:14,654 --> 00:04:17,814 Speaker 1: For a pivotal moment in his HBO show, Mark Maron 75 00:04:17,854 --> 00:04:20,934 Speaker 1: panicked he got in touch with mutual friend Jack Antonov 76 00:04:20,974 --> 00:04:23,694 Speaker 1: for help in licensing the track, and while his power 77 00:04:23,694 --> 00:04:26,414 Speaker 1: was able to offer advice on going through the official channels, 78 00:04:26,534 --> 00:04:29,094 Speaker 1: he couldn't get him a discount on the fee. Maren 79 00:04:29,134 --> 00:04:31,534 Speaker 1: didn't know if Swift had heard the specific joke that 80 00:04:31,574 --> 00:04:33,854 Speaker 1: her team signed off on letting him use the track for, 81 00:04:34,214 --> 00:04:36,694 Speaker 1: but he was manifesting that she would like it if 82 00:04:36,694 --> 00:04:37,134 Speaker 1: she did. 83 00:04:37,614 --> 00:04:46,974 Speaker 2: Thanks Claire. Next the latest out of Gaza. You might 84 00:04:46,974 --> 00:04:51,494 Speaker 2: have seen the headlines tactical pause, humanitarian corridor ate. 85 00:04:51,534 --> 00:04:53,934 Speaker 1: Allowed in, but what does that really. 86 00:04:53,614 --> 00:04:57,254 Speaker 2: Look like on the ground in Gaza? The Israeli military 87 00:04:57,294 --> 00:05:01,374 Speaker 2: this week announced tactical pauses in fighting aka ten hour 88 00:05:01,494 --> 00:05:06,174 Speaker 2: breaks in three of the enclaves most populated areas, Gaza City, Dia, 89 00:05:06,254 --> 00:05:10,894 Speaker 2: Albala and Mamasi. Israel says the daily windows from ten 90 00:05:10,934 --> 00:05:13,454 Speaker 2: am to eight pm are to increase the scale of 91 00:05:13,534 --> 00:05:18,054 Speaker 2: humanitarian aid getting in, but for many Palestinians that promise 92 00:05:18,094 --> 00:05:21,894 Speaker 2: comes with deep weariness. Soon after the first pause began, 93 00:05:22,094 --> 00:05:25,534 Speaker 2: Israel carried out an airstrike in Gaza City, with reports 94 00:05:25,574 --> 00:05:28,414 Speaker 2: from Al Alda Hospital confirming a mother and her four 95 00:05:28,494 --> 00:05:32,334 Speaker 2: children were killed. Elsewhere, even as trucks lined up to 96 00:05:32,334 --> 00:05:36,494 Speaker 2: bring in supplies. Crowds weighted nervously, reporting that anyone coming 97 00:05:36,534 --> 00:05:40,294 Speaker 2: close to the aid drop points risked being shot. Even 98 00:05:40,414 --> 00:05:44,174 Speaker 2: during the pause, fighting continues outside of the designated zones. 99 00:05:44,934 --> 00:05:48,414 Speaker 2: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netna, who has described the pauses 100 00:05:48,414 --> 00:05:52,054 Speaker 2: as allowing only a minimal amount of aid, downplaying any 101 00:05:52,094 --> 00:05:57,134 Speaker 2: suggestion that the blockade is really being lifted. Humanitarian experts 102 00:05:57,174 --> 00:06:00,494 Speaker 2: and aid groups say this is nowhere near enough. About 103 00:06:00,494 --> 00:06:03,174 Speaker 2: seventy trucks of food and supplies are now getting in 104 00:06:03,214 --> 00:06:07,014 Speaker 2: a day when Garza realistically needs five hundred just to 105 00:06:07,094 --> 00:06:12,574 Speaker 2: halt the deepening famine crisis inside Gaza. Doctors and aid 106 00:06:12,614 --> 00:06:17,614 Speaker 2: agencies paint a devastating picture. Images are circulating globally, small 107 00:06:17,694 --> 00:06:21,174 Speaker 2: children whose arms and legs are stick thin, bellies swollen 108 00:06:21,214 --> 00:06:25,774 Speaker 2: from hunger, mothers too weak to stand. The situation is 109 00:06:25,814 --> 00:06:29,174 Speaker 2: so grave some healthcare workers have turned to TikTok and 110 00:06:29,294 --> 00:06:33,894 Speaker 2: social media to explain step by step what starvation does 111 00:06:34,014 --> 00:06:34,614 Speaker 2: to the body. 112 00:06:35,734 --> 00:06:38,894 Speaker 3: In the first six to twenty four hours, lo sugar drops, 113 00:06:39,014 --> 00:06:42,254 Speaker 3: the body burns stored lackergy to stay alive one to 114 00:06:42,334 --> 00:06:47,494 Speaker 3: three days no more. Lacogene fat is stemmed into ketones 115 00:06:47,694 --> 00:06:50,094 Speaker 3: to fuel your brain. The body is now in a 116 00:06:50,174 --> 00:06:52,694 Speaker 3: survival mood, we call it. From three to five days, 117 00:06:53,214 --> 00:06:58,174 Speaker 3: the muscles start breaking down. The body sacrifice its own tissue, 118 00:06:58,574 --> 00:07:01,414 Speaker 3: even the hard, just to survive. This is when children 119 00:07:01,494 --> 00:07:02,494 Speaker 3: stop crying. 120 00:07:04,174 --> 00:07:07,934 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, back home, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi has ramped 121 00:07:07,934 --> 00:07:11,134 Speaker 2: out criticism of Israel's blow bode, calling it a clear 122 00:07:11,174 --> 00:07:15,174 Speaker 2: breach of international law, warning that stopping food and medical 123 00:07:15,174 --> 00:07:19,494 Speaker 2: supplies is costing Israel vital support. Worldwide, more than one 124 00:07:19,574 --> 00:07:23,414 Speaker 2: hundred humanitarian organizations are calling for the immediate opening of 125 00:07:23,494 --> 00:07:26,774 Speaker 2: all Gaza crossings, reminding leaders that the only thing that 126 00:07:26,814 --> 00:07:30,094 Speaker 2: will save lives is a true flood of humanitarian relief, 127 00:07:30,494 --> 00:07:35,374 Speaker 2: not minimal supplies. All of this happens as the political 128 00:07:35,414 --> 00:07:38,974 Speaker 2: spotlight turns to whether Australia will join France in recognizing 129 00:07:39,014 --> 00:07:43,894 Speaker 2: a Palestinian state. France's President Emmanuel Macron has made the move, 130 00:07:44,014 --> 00:07:48,534 Speaker 2: but pressure inside Labour is mixed. Foreign Minister Penny Wong 131 00:07:48,614 --> 00:07:52,134 Speaker 2: has reaffirmed the government stance, telling the ABC there are 132 00:07:52,214 --> 00:07:55,734 Speaker 2: challenges ahead before recognizing Palestinian statehood. 133 00:07:56,334 --> 00:07:59,654 Speaker 4: We have to see Amas demilitarized, we have to see 134 00:07:59,694 --> 00:08:03,134 Speaker 4: the hostages released. We need to see progress in terms 135 00:08:03,214 --> 00:08:07,534 Speaker 4: of the Palestinian authority and its moves to more democratic 136 00:08:07,574 --> 00:08:10,614 Speaker 4: and accountable governance, and it's easy to see some of 137 00:08:10,654 --> 00:08:11,694 Speaker 4: that happening. 138 00:08:12,294 --> 00:08:15,454 Speaker 2: Political debates aside, the crisis on the ground remains urgent, 139 00:08:15,774 --> 00:08:19,974 Speaker 2: a situation, in the words of humanitarian groups, entirely preventable 140 00:08:20,254 --> 00:08:23,494 Speaker 2: if only enough aid and action are allowed. In for 141 00:08:23,574 --> 00:08:25,934 Speaker 2: more on what these developments mean and what you can 142 00:08:25,934 --> 00:08:28,934 Speaker 2: do at home, we're joined by international relations expert doctor 143 00:08:28,974 --> 00:08:33,894 Speaker 2: Jessica Ganaua. Let's start with these military pauses. What's actually 144 00:08:33,894 --> 00:08:35,534 Speaker 2: going on there is it's going to be effective in 145 00:08:35,614 --> 00:08:37,614 Speaker 2: delivering the right amount of aid needed. 146 00:08:38,214 --> 00:08:41,854 Speaker 5: So we're seeing a ramping up of pressure on Israel 147 00:08:42,134 --> 00:08:46,534 Speaker 5: to address the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and this 148 00:08:46,694 --> 00:08:50,614 Speaker 5: is particularly around aid not getting through. So we're talking 149 00:08:50,654 --> 00:08:54,454 Speaker 5: about food, we're also talking about fresh water and medicines, 150 00:08:54,654 --> 00:08:57,574 Speaker 5: and where it is getting through not necessarily getting to 151 00:08:57,614 --> 00:09:01,774 Speaker 5: all of the civilian population that is requiring those basic 152 00:09:01,934 --> 00:09:06,374 Speaker 5: daily requirements. So at the moment, we are starting to 153 00:09:06,454 --> 00:09:11,574 Speaker 5: see some responsiveness from Israel in terms of trying to 154 00:09:11,734 --> 00:09:15,774 Speaker 5: ensure that aid will start to get through. It's still 155 00:09:16,494 --> 00:09:20,534 Speaker 5: small scale and its early days. According to estimates, the 156 00:09:20,574 --> 00:09:24,094 Speaker 5: civilian population there would need about five hundred or six 157 00:09:24,174 --> 00:09:26,174 Speaker 5: hundred AID trucks per day, and we just haven't seen 158 00:09:26,214 --> 00:09:29,254 Speaker 5: anything of that volume actually getting through. And because there's 159 00:09:29,294 --> 00:09:33,054 Speaker 5: still the military operation ongoing in the Gaza Strip, that 160 00:09:33,094 --> 00:09:37,934 Speaker 5: would require a pause in fighting and humanitarian corridors to 161 00:09:37,974 --> 00:09:40,974 Speaker 5: be enabled in order to make sure the aid can 162 00:09:41,014 --> 00:09:45,934 Speaker 5: actually get through without aid workers or people coming to 163 00:09:45,974 --> 00:09:50,454 Speaker 5: get that aid being physically threatened themselves while they're essentially 164 00:09:50,694 --> 00:09:52,614 Speaker 5: in a war zone. So that's what we're also starting 165 00:09:52,614 --> 00:09:55,814 Speaker 5: to see and move towards having some military pauses for 166 00:09:55,854 --> 00:09:57,894 Speaker 5: aid to get through, but we still don't know if 167 00:09:57,934 --> 00:10:00,894 Speaker 5: that will be sufficient for what's required to address the 168 00:10:00,974 --> 00:10:02,174 Speaker 5: humanitarian crisis. 169 00:10:02,734 --> 00:10:05,694 Speaker 2: Can we take a step back? People and even the 170 00:10:05,854 --> 00:10:09,494 Speaker 2: UN have been very critical of the Gaza Humanitarian Founder 171 00:10:09,974 --> 00:10:13,814 Speaker 2: that US and Israelly backed private organization who've been delivering 172 00:10:13,854 --> 00:10:16,974 Speaker 2: aid in Gaza. Why is there so much criticism around 173 00:10:16,974 --> 00:10:18,414 Speaker 2: that particular outlet. 174 00:10:18,974 --> 00:10:23,054 Speaker 5: First of all, the whole concept of having a private organization, 175 00:10:23,174 --> 00:10:27,014 Speaker 5: which it seems may even be a for profit organization 176 00:10:27,734 --> 00:10:33,814 Speaker 5: delivering aid is a very tricky area because when it 177 00:10:33,854 --> 00:10:38,134 Speaker 5: comes to aid, when it's trying to supply civilian populations 178 00:10:38,134 --> 00:10:41,894 Speaker 5: with necessary food stuff. You really want that to be overseen, 179 00:10:42,094 --> 00:10:47,694 Speaker 5: particularly a very tricky political, high intensity military environment. You 180 00:10:47,774 --> 00:10:50,934 Speaker 5: want that to be overseen by neutral actors who are 181 00:10:50,974 --> 00:10:54,734 Speaker 5: part of some kind of international organization and whose only 182 00:10:54,774 --> 00:10:58,014 Speaker 5: imperative is going to be a humanitarian one to get 183 00:10:58,054 --> 00:11:00,134 Speaker 5: food to people who need it, to get water to 184 00:11:00,134 --> 00:11:02,934 Speaker 5: people who need it, et cetera. So, yes, there's been 185 00:11:02,974 --> 00:11:07,334 Speaker 5: a lot of controversy around this particular organization, saying that 186 00:11:07,374 --> 00:11:13,374 Speaker 5: they're using on the ground private security contractors who maybe 187 00:11:13,414 --> 00:11:17,654 Speaker 5: are not in their first objective humanitarian actors. So essentially 188 00:11:17,694 --> 00:11:22,094 Speaker 5: they're there to provide security for other actors who are 189 00:11:22,094 --> 00:11:25,214 Speaker 5: then delivering the aid, but they might view there to 190 00:11:25,214 --> 00:11:29,414 Speaker 5: be a security threat, where a humanitarian actor might say, no, 191 00:11:29,734 --> 00:11:32,454 Speaker 5: you know, this crowd of people coming in and wanting 192 00:11:32,454 --> 00:11:34,094 Speaker 5: to get food for their families, we're not going to 193 00:11:34,174 --> 00:11:36,734 Speaker 5: view them as a security threat. So there's been I 194 00:11:36,734 --> 00:11:39,974 Speaker 5: think a lot of gray area there around the way 195 00:11:40,054 --> 00:11:44,054 Speaker 5: that those private security actors have been operating on the ground. 196 00:11:44,374 --> 00:11:46,534 Speaker 5: So I think this really comes down to the complexity 197 00:11:46,654 --> 00:11:50,134 Speaker 5: of having a private organization trying to deliver up what 198 00:11:50,254 --> 00:11:53,494 Speaker 5: should be a public good that should be overseen by 199 00:11:53,614 --> 00:11:55,014 Speaker 5: an international organization. 200 00:11:55,774 --> 00:11:59,374 Speaker 2: Recently we've seen France move to recognize the state of Palestine. 201 00:11:59,414 --> 00:12:02,854 Speaker 2: Australia is yet to do so. The Foreign Minister, Penny 202 00:12:02,854 --> 00:12:06,214 Speaker 2: Wong says that Hamas needs to be demilitarized before any 203 00:12:06,334 --> 00:12:10,334 Speaker 2: kind of recognition of statehood can occur. Beyond not releasing 204 00:12:10,374 --> 00:12:14,014 Speaker 2: the remaining Israeli hostages, what else is Hamas actually doing 205 00:12:14,094 --> 00:12:16,374 Speaker 2: right now? When she says they need to be demilitarized, 206 00:12:16,694 --> 00:12:19,414 Speaker 2: there's imagery that they're actively in a war zone and 207 00:12:19,454 --> 00:12:21,454 Speaker 2: engaging in conflict. Is that correct? 208 00:12:22,134 --> 00:12:25,654 Speaker 5: This is again a tricky area, like the extent to 209 00:12:25,734 --> 00:12:29,174 Speaker 5: which Israel could prove that they have achieved or not 210 00:12:29,254 --> 00:12:34,014 Speaker 5: achieved their stated military objective of ensuring that Hamas can 211 00:12:34,094 --> 00:12:37,494 Speaker 5: no longer operate as a military fighting force. I've no 212 00:12:37,574 --> 00:12:42,454 Speaker 5: doubt there are still some elements of armed ha mass 213 00:12:42,534 --> 00:12:46,174 Speaker 5: fighters who still exist within the Gaza strip and are 214 00:12:46,174 --> 00:12:49,854 Speaker 5: trying to operate. However they're best able. Ha Maas has 215 00:12:49,934 --> 00:12:55,294 Speaker 5: been severely degraded since Israel's response to those October seven attacks. 216 00:12:55,934 --> 00:12:59,054 Speaker 5: Most of the Hamas leadership have been assassinated and they've 217 00:12:59,054 --> 00:13:01,974 Speaker 5: been replaced by others who in turn have often been assassinated, 218 00:13:02,014 --> 00:13:05,934 Speaker 5: so the entire group has been severely degraded. But an 219 00:13:06,014 --> 00:13:09,374 Speaker 5: element of complexity here again is that we're talking about 220 00:13:09,654 --> 00:13:14,974 Speaker 5: non state actor essentially, so HAMAS fighters aren't always going 221 00:13:15,014 --> 00:13:17,774 Speaker 5: to be in military fatigues as we would think of 222 00:13:18,254 --> 00:13:22,094 Speaker 5: state military fighting force. It can be hard to pinpoint 223 00:13:22,174 --> 00:13:26,614 Speaker 5: and identify exactly has every single fighter who identifies as 224 00:13:26,694 --> 00:13:30,174 Speaker 5: part of the Hamas fighting force? Have they all laid 225 00:13:30,174 --> 00:13:32,054 Speaker 5: down their arms or have they not laid down their arms? 226 00:13:32,054 --> 00:13:35,574 Speaker 5: How many are exactly left? Nobody could give an exact count, 227 00:13:36,254 --> 00:13:40,734 Speaker 5: But I think that what is clear is that it 228 00:13:40,814 --> 00:13:45,214 Speaker 5: is going to be very tricky to say definitively every 229 00:13:45,254 --> 00:13:48,814 Speaker 5: single person who's ever identified with Hamas has now been 230 00:13:49,334 --> 00:13:53,854 Speaker 5: disarmed in terms of their ability to engage in operations 231 00:13:53,854 --> 00:13:56,334 Speaker 5: against Israel. I almost think trying to get to that 232 00:13:56,494 --> 00:14:02,054 Speaker 5: point is something that is almost impossible when you're looking 233 00:14:02,094 --> 00:14:04,294 Speaker 5: at a force who are essentially a non state actor, 234 00:14:04,334 --> 00:14:06,854 Speaker 5: so they sort of can blend in and out of populations. 235 00:14:07,134 --> 00:14:09,014 Speaker 5: So I'm not sure that that actually gives us any 236 00:14:09,094 --> 00:14:13,054 Speaker 5: kind of clear timeline on what point in time would 237 00:14:13,054 --> 00:14:16,414 Speaker 5: a stance change and would countries say, well, yes, okay, 238 00:14:16,454 --> 00:14:19,414 Speaker 5: that objective has now been clearly achieved. 239 00:14:19,774 --> 00:14:23,774 Speaker 2: When we say recognition of statehood, jess, what does that 240 00:14:23,814 --> 00:14:26,934 Speaker 2: actually mean? Do we not already recognize that Palestine is 241 00:14:26,934 --> 00:14:27,494 Speaker 2: a country. 242 00:14:28,054 --> 00:14:31,574 Speaker 5: This is an interesting area because there are a few 243 00:14:31,574 --> 00:14:34,894 Speaker 5: different factors that state entities need to have if they 244 00:14:34,894 --> 00:14:39,174 Speaker 5: want to claim statehood internationally. One of those is a 245 00:14:39,254 --> 00:14:43,574 Speaker 5: clear territory, clear territorial boundaries, clear governance over the territory. 246 00:14:44,094 --> 00:14:50,014 Speaker 5: But an interesting aspect is what's called international legitimacy and recognition, 247 00:14:50,614 --> 00:14:53,934 Speaker 5: and that typically takes place through as a sort of 248 00:14:53,974 --> 00:14:58,934 Speaker 5: a proxy measure, through states being recognized and having full 249 00:14:58,974 --> 00:15:04,014 Speaker 5: membership of the United Nations, and Palestine at the moment 250 00:15:04,214 --> 00:15:07,534 Speaker 5: has a non member observer status at the United Nations. 251 00:15:08,014 --> 00:15:11,254 Speaker 5: So a key aspect individual states want to go out 252 00:15:11,334 --> 00:15:14,294 Speaker 5: and say we now recognize Palestine as a state. That 253 00:15:14,374 --> 00:15:17,334 Speaker 5: does matter symbolically because if ultimately all the states in 254 00:15:17,374 --> 00:15:19,414 Speaker 5: the world were to say that, it would almost create 255 00:15:19,414 --> 00:15:22,854 Speaker 5: a situation where Palestine becomes a state. But at the 256 00:15:22,894 --> 00:15:27,294 Speaker 5: same time, if Palestine does not become a full member 257 00:15:27,294 --> 00:15:30,934 Speaker 5: of the United Nations, they won't really be viewed within 258 00:15:30,934 --> 00:15:34,614 Speaker 5: the international system as a full state. And in order 259 00:15:34,694 --> 00:15:37,934 Speaker 5: to get that full membership that needs to go through 260 00:15:37,974 --> 00:15:42,614 Speaker 5: the United Nations Security Council. And a complicating aspect is 261 00:15:42,614 --> 00:15:45,574 Speaker 5: that in the United Nations Security Council there are five 262 00:15:45,974 --> 00:15:50,294 Speaker 5: major countries who have veto power, so the United States, China, 263 00:15:50,614 --> 00:15:53,934 Speaker 5: the UK, France and Russia. And as you can imagine, 264 00:15:53,974 --> 00:15:56,534 Speaker 5: on this issue, there has been a proposal put the 265 00:15:56,614 --> 00:15:59,254 Speaker 5: United Nations Security Council that Palestine should be put forward 266 00:15:59,294 --> 00:16:02,374 Speaker 5: for full statehood, but in the most recent case, the 267 00:16:02,454 --> 00:16:05,694 Speaker 5: United States vetoed that. But any one of those five 268 00:16:05,734 --> 00:16:09,134 Speaker 5: countries could potentially veto. So the fact that France is 269 00:16:09,134 --> 00:16:12,134 Speaker 5: decided to recognize Palestinian statehood and they are on the 270 00:16:12,214 --> 00:16:16,134 Speaker 5: United Nations Security Council is important and is significant, but 271 00:16:16,214 --> 00:16:19,734 Speaker 5: it's not going to be enough just bringing. 272 00:16:19,414 --> 00:16:22,374 Speaker 2: It back home. We've seen reporting that within labor there's 273 00:16:22,454 --> 00:16:25,694 Speaker 2: pressure mounting to do more. We saw former Foreign Minister 274 00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:28,094 Speaker 2: Bob Carr said that we shouldn't be waiting for other 275 00:16:28,134 --> 00:16:31,214 Speaker 2: countries to make a move, so why are we. We've 276 00:16:31,214 --> 00:16:34,454 Speaker 2: seen last week that the Australian government was a signatory 277 00:16:34,494 --> 00:16:37,574 Speaker 2: to that declaration asking for a ceasefire. We've seen alban 278 00:16:37,614 --> 00:16:40,534 Speaker 2: easy tough in his stance in the last few weeks. 279 00:16:40,894 --> 00:16:43,254 Speaker 2: Why are we hesitant to maybe make a move like 280 00:16:43,334 --> 00:16:45,374 Speaker 2: France and recognize statehood. 281 00:16:45,974 --> 00:16:48,294 Speaker 5: I think there are probably a couple of reasons, but 282 00:16:48,374 --> 00:16:51,894 Speaker 5: I think that Australia we've seen generally, is tending to 283 00:16:52,254 --> 00:16:58,814 Speaker 5: follow European countries' partners rather than wanting to go out 284 00:16:58,894 --> 00:17:03,454 Speaker 5: and actually lead on taking new steps when it comes 285 00:17:03,574 --> 00:17:08,774 Speaker 5: to statements or even recognition of a Palestinian state or 286 00:17:08,894 --> 00:17:11,014 Speaker 5: other types of things that might be seen as steps 287 00:17:11,054 --> 00:17:15,094 Speaker 5: towards trying to pressure Israel to more seriously address the 288 00:17:15,174 --> 00:17:17,814 Speaker 5: humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So it's not that the Australian 289 00:17:17,854 --> 00:17:20,454 Speaker 5: government is not concerned, but I don't think that Australia 290 00:17:20,494 --> 00:17:23,094 Speaker 5: wants to kind of go out ahead of our European partners. 291 00:17:23,094 --> 00:17:25,614 Speaker 5: So I could imagine if a lot more countries across 292 00:17:25,654 --> 00:17:29,214 Speaker 5: Europe decide to recognize a Palestinian state, Australia might do so. 293 00:17:29,894 --> 00:17:34,094 Speaker 5: But I think that we are cautious around upsetting our 294 00:17:34,174 --> 00:17:37,534 Speaker 5: key US partner as well. So I think on this issue, 295 00:17:37,694 --> 00:17:42,654 Speaker 5: the current Labor government is actually trying to remain quite centrist, 296 00:17:43,334 --> 00:17:46,934 Speaker 5: and I think they've been sticking to that in quite 297 00:17:46,934 --> 00:17:49,694 Speaker 5: a persistent way, even when there are voices within the 298 00:17:49,694 --> 00:17:53,294 Speaker 5: Australian domestic context that are calling for more action from 299 00:17:53,294 --> 00:17:56,694 Speaker 5: the Labor government. I think they're still remaining very centrist 300 00:17:56,774 --> 00:17:59,174 Speaker 5: in their stance, and I don't think that's likely to 301 00:17:59,294 --> 00:18:01,534 Speaker 5: change in the near future. Jess. 302 00:18:01,574 --> 00:18:04,694 Speaker 2: This weekend was really a turning point for a lot 303 00:18:04,734 --> 00:18:08,574 Speaker 2: of people. Seeing those images of Style children left people 304 00:18:08,614 --> 00:18:11,894 Speaker 2: with a feeling of despair and helplessness. What is the 305 00:18:11,934 --> 00:18:15,054 Speaker 2: most useful, practical, helpful thing that we can do for 306 00:18:15,094 --> 00:18:17,854 Speaker 2: people who are sitting at home and wanting to contribute 307 00:18:17,934 --> 00:18:22,734 Speaker 2: to ending this starvation. Is it more effective to donate 308 00:18:22,974 --> 00:18:25,654 Speaker 2: to aid and relief? Will it even get through We 309 00:18:25,734 --> 00:18:29,094 Speaker 2: don't necessarily know with these tactical pauses, Or would we 310 00:18:29,134 --> 00:18:31,974 Speaker 2: be better place to focus our attention and energy at home, 311 00:18:32,054 --> 00:18:34,694 Speaker 2: like writing to our members of parliament or showing up 312 00:18:34,734 --> 00:18:36,694 Speaker 2: to a protest. What would you suggest people do? 313 00:18:37,374 --> 00:18:42,934 Speaker 5: Ultimately, domestic pressure does matter, like I think that in 314 00:18:42,934 --> 00:18:48,854 Speaker 5: a democratic society, our political actors are concerned first and 315 00:18:48,934 --> 00:18:52,974 Speaker 5: foremost with their domestic constituency. So whether it's members of 316 00:18:53,014 --> 00:18:57,934 Speaker 5: Parliament thinking about their own electorate or whether it's members 317 00:18:57,974 --> 00:19:02,894 Speaker 5: of the current government thinking about more generally opinion across 318 00:19:02,894 --> 00:19:07,454 Speaker 5: of Australia. The thing that tends to actually bring pressure 319 00:19:07,454 --> 00:19:12,454 Speaker 5: to bear on politicians is concern about domestic sentiment, and 320 00:19:12,494 --> 00:19:14,814 Speaker 5: they do care, they do want to know. It could 321 00:19:14,854 --> 00:19:17,254 Speaker 5: be that if on a particular issue area there's a 322 00:19:17,294 --> 00:19:19,854 Speaker 5: sort of a fifty to fifty split across the Australian population, 323 00:19:19,934 --> 00:19:21,774 Speaker 5: that will be one thing. If it becomes clear that 324 00:19:21,854 --> 00:19:24,974 Speaker 5: actually the split is more eighty percent one way twenty 325 00:19:25,014 --> 00:19:28,014 Speaker 5: percent the other way, that will concern politicians, That will 326 00:19:28,054 --> 00:19:31,094 Speaker 5: concern political actors, and then they will also bring internal 327 00:19:31,134 --> 00:19:33,174 Speaker 5: pressure to bear for something to be done about that. 328 00:19:33,854 --> 00:19:37,814 Speaker 5: I think that internationally it does matter countries like France 329 00:19:37,894 --> 00:19:41,174 Speaker 5: that do have a fair amount of leverage and quite 330 00:19:41,254 --> 00:19:43,974 Speaker 5: powerful in the international system, so what they do is 331 00:19:44,014 --> 00:19:46,294 Speaker 5: going to matter. I mean, importantly, those sort of five 332 00:19:46,374 --> 00:19:51,974 Speaker 5: countries on the UN Security Council have relatively more ability 333 00:19:52,054 --> 00:19:55,934 Speaker 5: for leverage. But I think that for a country like Israel, 334 00:19:56,694 --> 00:20:00,814 Speaker 5: the thing that would probably matter the most besides general 335 00:20:01,454 --> 00:20:04,854 Speaker 5: international opinion, the thing that probably matters the most is 336 00:20:05,294 --> 00:20:09,014 Speaker 5: sanctions and economic pressure. We haven't really seen that so 337 00:20:09,174 --> 00:20:11,814 Speaker 5: far in any sort of serious way from countries around 338 00:20:11,854 --> 00:20:14,014 Speaker 5: the world, but that's probably the thing when we look 339 00:20:14,054 --> 00:20:19,494 Speaker 5: at the history of international affairs. That's probably the mechanism 340 00:20:19,894 --> 00:20:23,334 Speaker 5: that ends up having impact, not in all cases, but 341 00:20:23,374 --> 00:20:26,854 Speaker 5: where it is effective, that does have impact on states policy. 342 00:20:27,094 --> 00:20:30,574 Speaker 5: For politicians back at home in Australia, it is definitely 343 00:20:31,214 --> 00:20:34,694 Speaker 5: always top of mind for political actors. What do their 344 00:20:34,734 --> 00:20:39,094 Speaker 5: own constituencies think, What is the vibe check of the population, 345 00:20:39,494 --> 00:20:42,894 Speaker 5: where are people sitting on different issues? And they definitely 346 00:20:42,934 --> 00:20:45,774 Speaker 5: do care if they start to see a swing on 347 00:20:45,854 --> 00:20:48,054 Speaker 5: a particular issue one way or another. 348 00:20:51,694 --> 00:20:53,934 Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with 349 00:20:54,014 --> 00:20:56,214 Speaker 2: us today, hey, Linked in the show notes will be 350 00:20:56,294 --> 00:20:59,174 Speaker 2: further reading on the situation in Gaza, as well as 351 00:20:59,214 --> 00:21:02,974 Speaker 2: links to contribute to aid relief and other helpful resources too. 352 00:21:03,854 --> 00:21:07,214 Speaker 2: The quickie is produced by me Taylor Strano and Clare Murphy, 353 00:21:07,414 --> 00:21:09,374 Speaker 2: with audio production by Lou Hill.