WEBVTT - "What REALLY Happened When I Confronted Belle Gibson" 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:14.262 You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. 0:00:14.982 --> 0:00:18.462 Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and watars. 0:00:18.662 --> 0:00:23.702 This podcast was recorded on it's early twenty fifteen and 0:00:23.782 --> 0:00:26.742 single mum and entrepreneur Bell Gibson is living a life 0:00:26.782 --> 0:00:30.662 of luxury and success. She has a widely popular recipe 0:00:30.702 --> 0:00:35.502 app called The Whole Pantry, which features nourishing, plant based recipes, 0:00:36.022 --> 0:00:38.542 and she's preparing to release a book of the same name. 0:00:39.622 --> 0:00:43.742 Last year, she was named El Magazine's Most Aspiring Woman 0:00:43.822 --> 0:00:47.462 You've Met This Year and was Cosmo Magazine's Fun Fearless 0:00:47.502 --> 0:00:51.822 Female Recipient. Her app claimed the Apple title of Best 0:00:51.902 --> 0:00:54.862 Food and Drink App of twenty thirteen, and a few 0:00:54.862 --> 0:00:59.102 short years later, she's already enjoying over one million in sales. 0:01:00.182 --> 0:01:03.982 Her empire is built on an inspiring story of triumph, 0:01:04.702 --> 0:01:09.502 a harrowing and heartwarming story of survival. She first started 0:01:09.542 --> 0:01:13.222 posting about her ignant brain cancer on Instagram in twenty thirteen. 0:01:14.142 --> 0:01:16.822 Diagnosed in two thousand and nine at the age of twenty, 0:01:17.382 --> 0:01:20.782 she was given just four months to live. Instead of 0:01:20.822 --> 0:01:25.302 doing the usual chemotherapy and radiation treatments, Belle opted for 0:01:25.382 --> 0:01:29.182 alternative remedies and as she shared with her growing fan base, 0:01:29.742 --> 0:01:34.382 they worked, they healed her. She spoke of a healthy 0:01:34.462 --> 0:01:38.622 diet free of gluten and sugar, of salt, vitamin and 0:01:38.662 --> 0:01:43.142 oxygen treatments, of the power of colonics, and the benefits 0:01:43.142 --> 0:01:48.422 of Arabatic medicine, an ancient Indian holistic healing system. She 0:01:48.582 --> 0:01:52.622 encouraged her hundreds of thousands of followers to empower themselves 0:01:52.862 --> 0:01:57.262 and reclaim their lives through wellness, to heal themselves like 0:01:57.382 --> 0:02:02.902 she did naturally. But it was all a lie, all 0:02:02.982 --> 0:02:05.822 of it, and it was one of her close friends 0:02:06.662 --> 0:02:16.902 who first cottoned on to the truth. I'm Jemma Bath 0:02:17.102 --> 0:02:21.142 and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 0:02:21.262 --> 0:02:24.742 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:02:24.782 --> 0:02:27.502 people who know the most about them. A brand new 0:02:27.622 --> 0:02:32.582 series has just dropped on Netflix. I was diagnosed with 0:02:32.662 --> 0:02:36.822 a stage four brain shimmer. That was four years ago. 0:02:37.422 --> 0:02:39.422 Human beings are capable of anything. 0:02:41.782 --> 0:02:45.942 I was on a quest to heal myself naturally. I flirt, 0:02:46.102 --> 0:02:48.062 seek ours role and honest. 0:02:48.982 --> 0:02:53.742 Applesider Vinegar follows the story of Belle Gibson's success, lies, 0:02:54.022 --> 0:02:57.502 and demise and right Now It's the DV show everyone's 0:02:57.542 --> 0:03:01.622 talking about. Her unraveling started because of a suspicious friend. 0:03:02.102 --> 0:03:04.862 For Chanelle mccauloff, there were certain parts of her story 0:03:04.902 --> 0:03:09.182 that weren't adding up, certain incidents and symptoms that raised 0:03:09.182 --> 0:03:14.062 her eyebrow. Eventually, it would be Chanell that would first 0:03:14.102 --> 0:03:17.782 confront the conwoman. She was the whistleblower that brought down 0:03:17.862 --> 0:03:20.102 her web of lies and uncovered the damage she was 0:03:20.142 --> 0:03:23.782 doing to sick, vulnerable people. In Apple Side of Vinegar, 0:03:23.902 --> 0:03:26.182 the character of Chanell looks a little bit different to 0:03:26.262 --> 0:03:30.102 real life. In real life, Chanelle had no relationship with 0:03:30.222 --> 0:03:34.422 jess Ainsco, another wellness influencer who was actually living with 0:03:34.502 --> 0:03:37.622 cancer whose story is best represented by the character of 0:03:37.742 --> 0:03:41.182 Miller in the show. She wasn't working for Bell, just 0:03:41.222 --> 0:03:44.382 a friend of Belle's, but she is the one who 0:03:44.422 --> 0:03:47.582 confronted her in her house and went to the media. 0:03:48.462 --> 0:03:52.182 As Belle's story is once again thrust before an international audience, 0:03:52.662 --> 0:03:58.182 we got the chance to speak to Chanelle. Chanelle Bell 0:03:58.262 --> 0:04:02.622 Gibson's name is once again everywhere. It's making headlines because 0:04:02.622 --> 0:04:06.662 there's a Netflix series out about her life and her crimes. 0:04:07.622 --> 0:04:08.382 Have you watched it? 0:04:09.622 --> 0:04:12.222 I have seen this, so I did have to force 0:04:12.302 --> 0:04:16.582 myself to watch it. I'm overall I'm not entirely a 0:04:16.702 --> 0:04:19.862 huge fan of the show for a number of reasons. 0:04:19.382 --> 0:04:21.542 That we can chat about if you like. 0:04:22.022 --> 0:04:25.462 But yes, it seems to be a very big story 0:04:25.782 --> 0:04:26.862 in the media right now. 0:04:27.382 --> 0:04:30.822 So originally you weren't going to watch it, were you? 0:04:30.862 --> 0:04:35.982 No, I wasn't. I'm not entirely comfortable with dramatization and 0:04:36.182 --> 0:04:41.862 sensationalization of the story. The show has distorted the truth 0:04:42.342 --> 0:04:46.022 a little bit as well, And I'm not that comfortable 0:04:46.062 --> 0:04:50.662 with the capitalization of the harm that was caused to 0:04:50.702 --> 0:04:54.822 people with cancer. So yeah, there's obviously Netflix and a 0:04:54.862 --> 0:04:59.662 film studio and people profiting from that harm that was caused. 0:05:00.022 --> 0:05:02.742 I've sort of been thinking a lot about the ethics 0:05:03.062 --> 0:05:07.902 behind this kind of storytelling on that platform. I'm not 0:05:08.062 --> 0:05:12.062 entirely comfortable with the way that these two characters Beal 0:05:12.222 --> 0:05:15.902 and Miller, who Miller is based on a real life person, 0:05:16.222 --> 0:05:19.782 jess Ainsco, who actually did have cancer and was trying 0:05:19.822 --> 0:05:24.182 to heal her cancer naturally through wellness and natural remedies. 0:05:24.622 --> 0:05:28.062 They've pitted these two women against each other in the show, 0:05:28.262 --> 0:05:31.702 which actually didn't occur in real life, and I think 0:05:31.742 --> 0:05:39.742 it's quite a cliche, unoriginal, stereotypical narrative to kind of 0:05:39.822 --> 0:05:45.982 pit women against each other competitively as rivals, bitchy, gossipy, 0:05:46.222 --> 0:05:49.182 which is kind of what was depicted in the show. 0:05:49.702 --> 0:05:51.982 I just think it was really unnecessary, and I hope 0:05:52.102 --> 0:05:56.742 that the core messages that are really important about this story, 0:05:56.902 --> 0:05:59.222 about the harm that was cause to people, about how 0:05:59.262 --> 0:06:04.422 we can easily be misled or consume misinformation online. I 0:06:04.502 --> 0:06:07.822 just hope that those important messages aren't lost through the 0:06:07.822 --> 0:06:09.462 glamorization of this show. 0:06:10.462 --> 0:06:13.502 About your character in the show, because they use your name, 0:06:13.822 --> 0:06:17.182 but your character is kind of an amalgamation of you 0:06:17.422 --> 0:06:20.422 and you know, other people in Bell's life. How did 0:06:20.462 --> 0:06:22.022 you feel about the way they portrayed you. 0:06:23.862 --> 0:06:28.422 I actually was pleasantly surprised how my character was portrayed. 0:06:28.542 --> 0:06:31.022 I had no idea what they were going to do 0:06:31.102 --> 0:06:33.502 with it. I mean, obviously there's many things about my 0:06:33.582 --> 0:06:36.942 character and in the show that aren't accurate. For example, 0:06:36.982 --> 0:06:41.742 I wasn't Bell's manager or jess ains Co's manager Miller's character. 0:06:42.222 --> 0:06:47.902 I did know jess ains Co, but we weren't close friends. However, 0:06:48.742 --> 0:06:53.222 the scenes where I confront Bell, which is now dubbed 0:06:53.262 --> 0:06:56.622 the intervention where I am urging her to come forward 0:06:56.822 --> 0:06:59.702 and tell the truth. There was a lot of main 0:06:59.742 --> 0:07:03.382 parts of that scene that were really accurate, and I 0:07:03.422 --> 0:07:05.822 found that scene to be really compelling, and I think 0:07:06.222 --> 0:07:10.022 it's really important for me for the world to see 0:07:10.102 --> 0:07:13.862 that I did urge Belle to come forward and tell 0:07:13.902 --> 0:07:17.102 the truth. I never set out to expose Belle to 0:07:17.182 --> 0:07:20.902 have Belle canceled. I actually went to her as her 0:07:20.942 --> 0:07:24.062 friend and said, if you come forward and tell the truth, 0:07:24.102 --> 0:07:26.822 I will help you. I'll support you with the fallout. 0:07:27.502 --> 0:07:30.942 And she refused to and had she done that, things 0:07:30.982 --> 0:07:33.342 could have played out so much differently for her. 0:07:34.022 --> 0:07:35.622 I want to go back to the start of your 0:07:35.662 --> 0:07:39.782 story because it is quite different to the Netflix show. 0:07:41.102 --> 0:07:42.782 Tell us about how you met Belle. 0:07:43.742 --> 0:07:47.142 Sure So, I was actually doing a writing internship for 0:07:47.182 --> 0:07:50.502 a publication in Melbourne at the time, and they were 0:07:50.542 --> 0:07:53.342 more just interested in doing a puff piece on her. 0:07:53.462 --> 0:07:56.462 It was we were kind of interested in what she 0:07:56.542 --> 0:08:00.422 was doing with food and technology and being innovative and 0:08:00.462 --> 0:08:00.902 this kind. 0:08:00.822 --> 0:08:03.902 Of startup space. So I reached out. 0:08:03.822 --> 0:08:07.422 To her and she invited me to the launch event 0:08:07.662 --> 0:08:09.382 of the Whole Pantry app. 0:08:11.022 --> 0:08:11.342 That night. 0:08:11.382 --> 0:08:13.822 It was quite difficult for us to connect and chat. 0:08:13.902 --> 0:08:16.662 She was hosting the event. There's so many people there 0:08:17.182 --> 0:08:19.142 and so she was talking to a lot of people. 0:08:19.182 --> 0:08:23.702 We just briefly kind of introduced ourselves, and then after 0:08:23.742 --> 0:08:27.382 that event we met up for I think coffee, and 0:08:28.262 --> 0:08:31.862 it was really difficult to kind of get any information 0:08:32.142 --> 0:08:34.342 out of her, and so I just thought I'll just 0:08:34.382 --> 0:08:37.222 build a bit of rupperhor with her. It turned out 0:08:37.262 --> 0:08:39.902 we had some mutual friends. So then we went for 0:08:39.982 --> 0:08:43.822 coffee again and then lunch and dinner, and we were 0:08:43.862 --> 0:08:50.102 at similar events together and naturally just a friendship formed 0:08:50.182 --> 0:08:50.542 from them. 0:08:51.662 --> 0:08:55.862 What did being friends with Bell look like? Was it 0:08:56.182 --> 0:08:58.822 constant messaging? Was it hanging out all the time? Was 0:08:58.862 --> 0:08:59.622 she a good friend? 0:09:01.342 --> 0:09:06.582 Belle was really warm and charismatic. She actually had a 0:09:06.622 --> 0:09:10.262 way of making you feel really special, And looking back, 0:09:11.142 --> 0:09:15.422 I think this was part of kind of it was 0:09:15.502 --> 0:09:19.022 quite calculated on her behalf, because she had to deflect 0:09:19.062 --> 0:09:22.942 from herself so much, and if you've seen interviews with her, 0:09:23.062 --> 0:09:26.182 especially this sixty minutes interviewer in the show, it's very 0:09:26.222 --> 0:09:29.422 difficult to get a straight answer from her. So she 0:09:30.142 --> 0:09:33.582 had a way of really making the attention about the 0:09:33.662 --> 0:09:37.902 other person, so you always felt really kind of special 0:09:38.262 --> 0:09:42.902 and important in her presence. Our friendship looked like going 0:09:42.902 --> 0:09:45.982 out for lunch. It centered a lot around food. And 0:09:46.022 --> 0:09:50.022 what was quite interesting is my partner at the time 0:09:50.622 --> 0:09:55.222 actually had a traumatic brain injury, and Beao really connected 0:09:55.262 --> 0:09:58.662 with him and developed a really close friendship with him 0:09:58.822 --> 0:10:04.182 because she claimed that because of her brain tumor. That 0:10:04.302 --> 0:10:06.902 also meant she had a traumatic brain injury as a 0:10:06.942 --> 0:10:11.222 result of the brain tumor. What with no about Baal 0:10:11.502 --> 0:10:16.142 is that she gravitated to people, especially you know, people 0:10:16.142 --> 0:10:20.342 with cancer, to leverage them to her own advantage, to 0:10:20.422 --> 0:10:23.022 learn about their symptoms and take them on as her own. 0:10:23.702 --> 0:10:26.742 So she was actually doing that with my partner at 0:10:26.742 --> 0:10:27.102 the time. 0:10:27.262 --> 0:10:31.742 However, you know, I wasn't aware of that, and so yes, 0:10:31.822 --> 0:10:36.382 they they had a close friendship and and out friendship 0:10:36.462 --> 0:10:38.622 circle kind of just grew as well from there. 0:10:39.182 --> 0:10:41.222 What did you think of her success about the whole 0:10:41.262 --> 0:10:43.862 pantry and everything she was doing in that space. 0:10:45.902 --> 0:10:48.462 I was quite impressed by the business she was building. 0:10:48.902 --> 0:10:51.542 She was quite innovative. 0:10:51.022 --> 0:10:53.902 For that era. It was really early. 0:10:53.702 --> 0:10:59.022 Days of social media, especially Instagram. Building an audience, connecting 0:10:59.062 --> 0:11:05.062 with an audience, getting on the Apple Watch. So that 0:11:05.382 --> 0:11:08.022 was compelling to me at the time. This, you know, 0:11:08.102 --> 0:11:11.102 regardless if she was sick or not, this young woman, 0:11:11.542 --> 0:11:16.382 this young single mother, pioneering you know, this this technology 0:11:16.582 --> 0:11:18.102 and this business. 0:11:18.382 --> 0:11:21.422 So that that was that side of it was compelling 0:11:21.422 --> 0:11:21.862 at the time. 0:11:22.582 --> 0:11:26.342 When did you start getting a weird feeling? What were 0:11:26.382 --> 0:11:28.342 the first things that kind of struck you as odd? 0:11:29.782 --> 0:11:33.422 So behind the scenes, there would be things like we 0:11:33.542 --> 0:11:37.422 would go out drinking and one night, you know, she 0:11:37.582 --> 0:11:40.502 ordered shots and we were doing shots and I said, oh, 0:11:41.102 --> 0:11:43.262 should you really be drinking? Like, you know, she was 0:11:43.302 --> 0:11:49.302 obviously doing this very strict wellness natural protocol to heal 0:11:49.342 --> 0:11:54.462 herself from cancer, so drinking alcohol excessively was kind of 0:11:54.702 --> 0:11:57.502 really in conflict of that. So I said, you know, 0:11:57.502 --> 0:11:59.622 should you be drinking? And she said, well, I'm going 0:11:59.702 --> 0:12:03.182 to die anyway, so why not have some fun. And 0:12:03.222 --> 0:12:05.902 then there was a time where she also went to 0:12:05.942 --> 0:12:08.782 the solarium, which I thought was a bit odd given 0:12:09.142 --> 0:12:13.702 the risk of skin cancer with using solarium. And then 0:12:13.982 --> 0:12:17.902 the biggest thing for me, well, apart from that, she 0:12:17.982 --> 0:12:22.302 never appeared sick ever, never saw her sick. She was 0:12:22.742 --> 0:12:28.062 the epitome of wellness. Right, this beautiful, long, lush hair. 0:12:28.382 --> 0:12:33.342 She was glowing, she was active, happy, and then at 0:12:33.422 --> 0:12:40.062 her son's fourth birthday party, she all of a sudden 0:12:41.022 --> 0:12:45.102 collapsed to the floor and was having what appeared to 0:12:45.102 --> 0:12:48.062 be quite a violent seizure. She was convulsing on the ground, 0:12:48.582 --> 0:12:52.142 saliva was coming out of her mouth, and this went 0:12:52.182 --> 0:12:56.262 on for a really long time, about forty minutes, and 0:12:57.622 --> 0:13:01.862 about halfway through, I said, I'm calling an ambulance, and 0:13:01.902 --> 0:13:04.142 all of a sudden she kind of comes out of 0:13:04.182 --> 0:13:08.462 the seizure and says, no, I don't want Western medicine involved, 0:13:09.382 --> 0:13:11.342 and so I said, okay, and then she kind of 0:13:11.342 --> 0:13:14.182 went back into the seizure and then it kind of 0:13:14.182 --> 0:13:17.702 tape it off, and there was just something about it 0:13:17.742 --> 0:13:22.982 that just seems really performative to me. And Yeah, it 0:13:23.062 --> 0:13:26.982 was that day I left that party that I just 0:13:27.062 --> 0:13:29.582 knew in my gut that something was really wrong. 0:13:30.222 --> 0:13:32.942 Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was soon after that 0:13:33.022 --> 0:13:37.342 birthday that she announced that her cancer was spreading. But 0:13:37.422 --> 0:13:38.582 how did you find out about that? 0:13:39.902 --> 0:13:44.462 Yes, so she announced on Instagram that she now had 0:13:44.542 --> 0:13:48.662 stage four cancer. It had spread from her brain to spleen, 0:13:48.782 --> 0:13:52.342 her uterus, in her blood. It was basically a death sentence, 0:13:52.542 --> 0:13:56.222 and myself and most of her close friends we all 0:13:56.262 --> 0:14:01.302 found out by seeing it on her Instagram, which you 0:14:01.302 --> 0:14:01.862 know it was. 0:14:02.142 --> 0:14:02.662 We thought was. 0:14:02.742 --> 0:14:08.742 Quite odd that that's such serious diagnosis, and you know, 0:14:08.822 --> 0:14:13.382 we were all so you know, caring for her and 0:14:13.742 --> 0:14:17.102 concerned about her. So, yeah, it was really strange that 0:14:17.702 --> 0:14:22.142 it wasn't something that she shared with anyone really directly. 0:14:22.462 --> 0:14:25.342 It was just it was just kind of a press announcement. 0:14:26.062 --> 0:14:29.302 Once you had this hunch, it's a big leap to 0:14:29.342 --> 0:14:31.862 go from like having a feeling that something's not quite 0:14:31.942 --> 0:14:37.662 right to actually like talking to someone about it. Did 0:14:37.702 --> 0:14:40.542 you kind of mention it to friends and family, try 0:14:40.542 --> 0:14:43.382 and get some other people involved in how you're feeling. 0:14:44.102 --> 0:14:47.582 Yes, I did go to one of our mutual friends, 0:14:47.942 --> 0:14:52.102 and I shared my concerns with him what I thought 0:14:52.702 --> 0:14:55.542 regret flags and why things didn't add up for me, 0:14:56.302 --> 0:15:01.262 and he started to see that, yeah, okay, some of 0:15:01.302 --> 0:15:04.502 this doesn't make sense. So I asked him if he 0:15:04.502 --> 0:15:09.182 would come with me to basically hold an intervention and 0:15:09.302 --> 0:15:12.782 kind of confront vow and try and get some answers 0:15:12.862 --> 0:15:17.662 from her. So he agreed to do that, and we 0:15:17.742 --> 0:15:22.342 went over to Bell's house unannounced, and we sat her 0:15:22.422 --> 0:15:26.422 down and I just straight out asked her if she 0:15:26.502 --> 0:15:34.142 had cancer, and what did she say? She was acting 0:15:34.302 --> 0:15:38.222 kind of very defensive. She was saying that I was 0:15:38.222 --> 0:15:42.582 interrogating her. She started to slump down in her chair 0:15:42.902 --> 0:15:45.342 and say that she felt sick and was acting kind 0:15:45.342 --> 0:15:48.822 of faint, which at that point I kind of knew 0:15:49.102 --> 0:15:54.102 was based on having scene the seizure, I kind of 0:15:54.182 --> 0:15:57.382 knew that maybe this was another tactic of hers to 0:15:57.462 --> 0:15:59.742 all of a sudden, you know, act sick or as 0:15:59.742 --> 0:16:00.662 a way to deflect. 0:16:01.582 --> 0:16:03.622 She said that of course she was sick. 0:16:04.542 --> 0:16:09.982 I basically demanded her to go get any medical evidence 0:16:10.222 --> 0:16:13.742 to prove that she had cancer, any scanned, any hospital, 0:16:13.862 --> 0:16:17.102 doctor reports. She said that she didn't like to keep 0:16:17.142 --> 0:16:21.062 those documents because it's negative energy in her house. And 0:16:21.102 --> 0:16:24.822 so I asked her about this stage four diagnosis that 0:16:24.942 --> 0:16:27.462 she had just announced, and I said, what hospital did 0:16:27.502 --> 0:16:30.702 you go to to get that diagnosis? You know, I'm 0:16:30.742 --> 0:16:35.142 sure that it was a major hospital in Melbourne, And 0:16:35.222 --> 0:16:37.542 she said she didn't go to a hospital. She went 0:16:37.582 --> 0:16:40.862 to some random doctor's house in the suburbs. He picked 0:16:40.862 --> 0:16:44.862 her up and drove her there and gave her the diagnosis, 0:16:45.102 --> 0:16:47.742 And I asked her who was that doctor? 0:16:47.862 --> 0:16:50.102 What's his name? And she said doctor Phil. 0:16:51.102 --> 0:16:55.422 And at that point I actually thought it was so 0:16:55.582 --> 0:17:00.262 comical that the story was her story was that ridiculous 0:17:00.582 --> 0:17:07.462 and that so unplausible. So yeah, doctor Phil just had 0:17:07.462 --> 0:17:12.542 me stumped. And so I said, if you if you've 0:17:12.582 --> 0:17:15.302 not had a proper diagnosis at a hospital in some 0:17:15.422 --> 0:17:19.662 random house by this doctor, you know, does that mean 0:17:19.662 --> 0:17:25.102 you're your diagnosis is questionable? And she said, well, possibly 0:17:25.182 --> 0:17:30.142 because doctor Phil's gone missing. He's gone to ground, and 0:17:30.422 --> 0:17:34.182 none of his colleagues know where he is. And so 0:17:34.222 --> 0:17:39.262 obviously that all just sounded even more suspicious and unbelievable. 0:17:40.422 --> 0:17:45.782 So at this point she called Julie Gibbs, their editor 0:17:46.022 --> 0:17:50.782 publisher at Penguin Books. And she's set asking Julie or 0:17:50.822 --> 0:17:54.902 accusing Julie of speaking to her friends, and one of 0:17:54.942 --> 0:17:58.182 her friends is jealous and accusing her of not being sick. 0:17:57.982 --> 0:18:02.022 And did Julie put me up to this? Basically, And 0:18:02.062 --> 0:18:04.702 from what I could tell, Julie must have. 0:18:04.902 --> 0:18:07.182 I think Julie seemed really confused on the end the 0:18:07.222 --> 0:18:11.542 other end of the phone. Well, then called someone else. 0:18:11.622 --> 0:18:15.662 She phoned her acupuncturist and asked him to come over, 0:18:16.622 --> 0:18:21.462 and when he arrived, she said to him, tell them 0:18:21.582 --> 0:18:22.622 that I have cancer. 0:18:22.902 --> 0:18:23.902 And this was kind of. 0:18:23.862 --> 0:18:26.982 Her way to basically prove to us that she had cancer. 0:18:27.462 --> 0:18:30.742 And he said, well, of course you have cancer. And 0:18:30.782 --> 0:18:32.702 I said, well, how do you know that she has cancer? 0:18:32.862 --> 0:18:35.182 And he said, because she told me so. 0:18:35.222 --> 0:18:37.782 It doesn't sound like it was a short conversation. It 0:18:37.902 --> 0:18:40.422 was over a few hours or so if you had 0:18:40.462 --> 0:18:42.302 all these different phone calls and visitors. 0:18:42.342 --> 0:18:45.262 And yes, it was quite a few hours. I mean 0:18:45.342 --> 0:18:50.582 it seemed like forever at the time. I also went 0:18:50.662 --> 0:18:54.102 upstairs at her house to try and find Clive, her partner, 0:18:54.262 --> 0:18:59.862 who was somewhat involved in her business and the whole pantry. 0:19:00.622 --> 0:19:04.782 And Clive was someone who was kind of really difficult 0:19:04.822 --> 0:19:07.622 to figure out. He was kind of always in the background. 0:19:08.182 --> 0:19:13.262 He was quite withdrawn, very quiet. So I went upstairs 0:19:13.302 --> 0:19:16.622 and I found Clive and I said, Clive, you need 0:19:16.662 --> 0:19:20.862 to tell me the truth. And he said she would 0:19:20.902 --> 0:19:26.262 destroy anyone that tries to expose her, and that he 0:19:26.342 --> 0:19:30.182 needs to protect her little boy. So it was kind 0:19:30.222 --> 0:19:34.662 of a very cryptic, confronting answer I got from him. 0:19:34.942 --> 0:19:38.262 He then came downstairs with me, and he sat down 0:19:38.262 --> 0:19:41.222 with us and we were trying to make sense of 0:19:41.262 --> 0:19:45.582 it all, and it kind of the penny didn't drop 0:19:45.782 --> 0:19:47.382 for me until a little bit later on. 0:19:47.462 --> 0:19:49.182 But he made a comment that night. 0:19:49.662 --> 0:19:52.782 Because I did say it about which you can see 0:19:52.782 --> 0:19:56.142 in the show. I said to her, this is your 0:19:56.182 --> 0:19:59.782 inner circle knocking at your door. This is where it starts, 0:19:59.822 --> 0:20:03.502 and this is where it can end, and urging her 0:20:03.942 --> 0:20:06.982 to come forward on her own terms and tell the truth. 0:20:07.862 --> 0:20:11.382 And at that point when I was saying that, Clive 0:20:12.102 --> 0:20:14.942 said to bow Belle, you need. 0:20:14.782 --> 0:20:15.982 To get the books in order. 0:20:17.022 --> 0:20:19.542 And I think what that sort of meant later on 0:20:20.262 --> 0:20:24.502 was in regards to the charity fraud that Belle was conducting. 0:20:24.982 --> 0:20:28.342 So the books for her business, you know, weren't in order. 0:20:28.422 --> 0:20:31.262 She needed to kind of start covering her tracks or 0:20:31.302 --> 0:20:35.382 start paying the charities. So he was kind of hinting 0:20:35.422 --> 0:20:38.622 to Bowl and basically just just putting it out there 0:20:38.862 --> 0:20:40.262 that she needed to. 0:20:40.262 --> 0:20:41.582 Tie up loose ends. 0:20:42.222 --> 0:20:49.782 So I left that night just being absolutely gobsmacked that 0:20:50.582 --> 0:20:54.142 it just had confirmed everything for me that it was 0:20:54.182 --> 0:20:58.942 all a lie. There was at times for me where 0:20:59.342 --> 0:21:02.422 there was one percent of me that felt what if 0:21:02.462 --> 0:21:05.102 I've got this all wrong. What if I'm accusing this 0:21:05.302 --> 0:21:09.542 poor young woman of not having canceled when. 0:21:09.382 --> 0:21:10.062 She really does. 0:21:10.102 --> 0:21:14.062 But but that night it just solidified everything for me, 0:21:14.702 --> 0:21:19.102 and so I left there urging Bell again to come 0:21:19.142 --> 0:21:21.062 forward and tell the truth. 0:21:21.302 --> 0:21:24.262 And then a few days later I. 0:21:24.302 --> 0:21:26.782 Called her and I asked her if she was ready 0:21:26.822 --> 0:21:31.262 to come forward, and again I was met with defensiveness, 0:21:31.662 --> 0:21:35.502 some aggression. And then it was maybe a week or 0:21:35.502 --> 0:21:38.182 a couple of weeks after that it was her book launch, 0:21:38.342 --> 0:21:45.102 and we actually weren't really obviously kind of friends anymore 0:21:45.102 --> 0:21:47.182 at this point on talking terms. There was a lot 0:21:47.182 --> 0:21:50.502 of tension. She knew that I knew, but I still 0:21:50.582 --> 0:21:52.902 rocked up to her book launch, and as you'll see 0:21:52.902 --> 0:21:54.822 in the show, I stood there in the crowd and 0:21:56.422 --> 0:21:59.302 just really stared at her and just made a point 0:21:59.422 --> 0:22:02.622 of you know that there's someone here that knows and 0:22:03.062 --> 0:22:07.382 is going to hold you accountable. And the book launch, yeah, 0:22:07.422 --> 0:22:10.942 she just acted like nothing was going on. 0:22:11.622 --> 0:22:14.902 Were you angry through all of this? Once you'd had 0:22:14.942 --> 0:22:18.702 that kind of confrontation as they call it, and you 0:22:18.782 --> 0:22:23.062 were kind of waiting for her to admit what were 0:22:23.102 --> 0:22:24.302 the emotions? Was it anger? 0:22:25.222 --> 0:22:29.862 I was very angry. My mother has battled cancer twice. 0:22:29.942 --> 0:22:32.262 I mean, I mean we all, we all have a 0:22:32.302 --> 0:22:36.142 connection to someone who's had cancer, or we know of 0:22:36.262 --> 0:22:40.862 someone that have someone close to them who's been touched 0:22:40.902 --> 0:22:45.942 by cancer. So yeah, it made me very angry at 0:22:46.702 --> 0:22:50.142 What was so alarming is that the message she was 0:22:50.182 --> 0:22:55.862 putting out was so dangerous because really vulnerable people, people 0:22:55.902 --> 0:23:00.622 with cancer, were making really serious decisions about their life 0:23:00.662 --> 0:23:04.822 and about their health. So yeah, it made my blood boil, 0:23:05.102 --> 0:23:09.422 especially because now I knew that I made her aware 0:23:09.542 --> 0:23:15.062 of how serious the situation was. There's been speculation and 0:23:15.182 --> 0:23:17.502 kind of this narrative about it was just this young 0:23:17.542 --> 0:23:21.742 woman who was very naive, this lie got away with 0:23:21.782 --> 0:23:26.182 her and it snowballed. However, that's not what I experienced 0:23:26.262 --> 0:23:30.382 When I went to her and you know, made her 0:23:30.822 --> 0:23:34.582 really aware of how serious this wasn't and urged her 0:23:34.582 --> 0:23:37.622 to come forward, she just doubled down. 0:23:38.622 --> 0:23:41.222 I think the part of it that gets to me 0:23:41.302 --> 0:23:44.902 as well is, and I'd love your insight on this, 0:23:45.222 --> 0:23:48.422 is how she would gravitate towards people that were sick 0:23:48.462 --> 0:23:50.822 and then kind of be a bit of a chameleon 0:23:50.862 --> 0:23:53.662 and emulate the things that she was seeing that's a 0:23:53.742 --> 0:23:55.062 very calculated thing to do. 0:23:56.942 --> 0:24:00.462 Yeah, I mean, that's what's also very tragic about this 0:24:00.542 --> 0:24:04.822 story is there were very sick, vulnerable people that she 0:24:04.862 --> 0:24:09.742 got very close to. One was a little boy who 0:24:09.782 --> 0:24:14.382 did have brain cancer, and she was fund raising on 0:24:14.502 --> 0:24:19.382 behalf of him and his family to pay for him 0:24:19.382 --> 0:24:24.582 to potentially have life saving surgery, and that money was 0:24:24.622 --> 0:24:29.662 never handed over, and unfortunately that little boy has passed away. 0:24:30.062 --> 0:24:31.822 I'm not saying he passed away. 0:24:31.622 --> 0:24:36.142 Because of his association with Belle, but also he was 0:24:36.262 --> 0:24:40.622 at the birthday party that day that she faked the seizure, 0:24:41.102 --> 0:24:45.582 so that little boy Bell's son, they had to witness 0:24:46.102 --> 0:24:49.582 this lie sort of firsthand as well. So the impact 0:24:50.662 --> 0:24:55.022 it had on, you know, really vulnerable people is actually 0:24:55.582 --> 0:24:56.582 it is so shocking. 0:25:00.942 --> 0:25:03.902 After the break, Chanelle tells us about how she approached 0:25:03.902 --> 0:25:07.422 the journalists who would help her expose Belle Gibson's lies 0:25:07.662 --> 0:25:15.262 to the world. What did you do next? Obviously you 0:25:15.302 --> 0:25:19.262 could see that book launch, she wasn't admitting anything. Do 0:25:19.382 --> 0:25:21.622 you go to the police, do you go straight to 0:25:21.662 --> 0:25:23.582 the journalists? What are your next steps? 0:25:24.462 --> 0:25:26.662 Yeah, so the first step I took was going to 0:25:26.702 --> 0:25:31.022 the police, and the police said that I didn't have 0:25:31.062 --> 0:25:34.862 any evidence, which I didn't, and it's obviously very difficult 0:25:34.982 --> 0:25:40.462 to get access to someone's medical records. So yeah, the 0:25:40.502 --> 0:25:44.382 police basically turned me away. I went to a very 0:25:44.462 --> 0:25:51.262 high profile lawyer and he accused me of basically defamation 0:25:51.422 --> 0:25:55.422