1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:14,262 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. 2 00:00:14,982 --> 00:00:18,462 Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and watars. 3 00:00:18,662 --> 00:00:23,702 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on it's early twenty fifteen and 4 00:00:23,782 --> 00:00:26,742 Speaker 2: single mum and entrepreneur Bell Gibson is living a life 5 00:00:26,782 --> 00:00:30,662 Speaker 2: of luxury and success. She has a widely popular recipe 6 00:00:30,702 --> 00:00:35,502 Speaker 2: app called The Whole Pantry, which features nourishing, plant based recipes, 7 00:00:36,022 --> 00:00:38,542 Speaker 2: and she's preparing to release a book of the same name. 8 00:00:39,622 --> 00:00:43,742 Speaker 2: Last year, she was named El Magazine's Most Aspiring Woman 9 00:00:43,822 --> 00:00:47,462 Speaker 2: You've Met This Year and was Cosmo Magazine's Fun Fearless 10 00:00:47,502 --> 00:00:51,822 Speaker 2: Female Recipient. Her app claimed the Apple title of Best 11 00:00:51,902 --> 00:00:54,862 Speaker 2: Food and Drink App of twenty thirteen, and a few 12 00:00:54,862 --> 00:00:59,102 Speaker 2: short years later, she's already enjoying over one million in sales. 13 00:01:00,182 --> 00:01:03,982 Speaker 2: Her empire is built on an inspiring story of triumph, 14 00:01:04,702 --> 00:01:09,502 Speaker 2: a harrowing and heartwarming story of survival. She first started 15 00:01:09,542 --> 00:01:13,222 Speaker 2: posting about her ignant brain cancer on Instagram in twenty thirteen. 16 00:01:14,142 --> 00:01:16,822 Speaker 2: Diagnosed in two thousand and nine at the age of twenty, 17 00:01:17,382 --> 00:01:20,782 Speaker 2: she was given just four months to live. Instead of 18 00:01:20,822 --> 00:01:25,302 Speaker 2: doing the usual chemotherapy and radiation treatments, Belle opted for 19 00:01:25,382 --> 00:01:29,182 Speaker 2: alternative remedies and as she shared with her growing fan base, 20 00:01:29,742 --> 00:01:34,382 Speaker 2: they worked, they healed her. She spoke of a healthy 21 00:01:34,462 --> 00:01:38,622 Speaker 2: diet free of gluten and sugar, of salt, vitamin and 22 00:01:38,662 --> 00:01:43,142 Speaker 2: oxygen treatments, of the power of colonics, and the benefits 23 00:01:43,142 --> 00:01:48,422 Speaker 2: of Arabatic medicine, an ancient Indian holistic healing system. She 24 00:01:48,582 --> 00:01:52,622 Speaker 2: encouraged her hundreds of thousands of followers to empower themselves 25 00:01:52,862 --> 00:01:57,262 Speaker 2: and reclaim their lives through wellness, to heal themselves like 26 00:01:57,382 --> 00:02:02,902 Speaker 2: she did naturally. But it was all a lie, all 27 00:02:02,982 --> 00:02:05,822 Speaker 2: of it, and it was one of her close friends 28 00:02:06,662 --> 00:02:16,902 Speaker 2: who first cottoned on to the truth. I'm Jemma Bath 29 00:02:17,102 --> 00:02:21,142 Speaker 2: and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 30 00:02:21,262 --> 00:02:24,742 Speaker 2: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 31 00:02:24,782 --> 00:02:27,502 Speaker 2: people who know the most about them. A brand new 32 00:02:27,622 --> 00:02:32,582 Speaker 2: series has just dropped on Netflix. I was diagnosed with 33 00:02:32,662 --> 00:02:36,822 Speaker 2: a stage four brain shimmer. That was four years ago. 34 00:02:37,422 --> 00:02:39,422 Speaker 2: Human beings are capable of anything. 35 00:02:41,782 --> 00:02:45,942 Speaker 1: I was on a quest to heal myself naturally. I flirt, 36 00:02:46,102 --> 00:02:48,062 Speaker 1: seek ours role and honest. 37 00:02:48,982 --> 00:02:53,742 Speaker 2: Applesider Vinegar follows the story of Belle Gibson's success, lies, 38 00:02:54,022 --> 00:02:57,502 Speaker 2: and demise and right Now It's the DV show everyone's 39 00:02:57,542 --> 00:03:01,622 Speaker 2: talking about. Her unraveling started because of a suspicious friend. 40 00:03:02,102 --> 00:03:04,862 Speaker 2: For Chanelle mccauloff, there were certain parts of her story 41 00:03:04,902 --> 00:03:09,182 Speaker 2: that weren't adding up, certain incidents and symptoms that raised 42 00:03:09,182 --> 00:03:14,062 Speaker 2: her eyebrow. Eventually, it would be Chanell that would first 43 00:03:14,102 --> 00:03:17,782 Speaker 2: confront the conwoman. She was the whistleblower that brought down 44 00:03:17,862 --> 00:03:20,102 Speaker 2: her web of lies and uncovered the damage she was 45 00:03:20,142 --> 00:03:23,782 Speaker 2: doing to sick, vulnerable people. In Apple Side of Vinegar, 46 00:03:23,902 --> 00:03:26,182 Speaker 2: the character of Chanell looks a little bit different to 47 00:03:26,262 --> 00:03:30,102 Speaker 2: real life. In real life, Chanelle had no relationship with 48 00:03:30,222 --> 00:03:34,422 Speaker 2: jess Ainsco, another wellness influencer who was actually living with 49 00:03:34,502 --> 00:03:37,622 Speaker 2: cancer whose story is best represented by the character of 50 00:03:37,742 --> 00:03:41,182 Speaker 2: Miller in the show. She wasn't working for Bell, just 51 00:03:41,222 --> 00:03:44,382 Speaker 2: a friend of Belle's, but she is the one who 52 00:03:44,422 --> 00:03:47,582 Speaker 2: confronted her in her house and went to the media. 53 00:03:48,462 --> 00:03:52,182 Speaker 2: As Belle's story is once again thrust before an international audience, 54 00:03:52,662 --> 00:03:58,182 Speaker 2: we got the chance to speak to Chanelle. Chanelle Bell 55 00:03:58,262 --> 00:04:02,622 Speaker 2: Gibson's name is once again everywhere. It's making headlines because 56 00:04:02,622 --> 00:04:06,662 Speaker 2: there's a Netflix series out about her life and her crimes. 57 00:04:07,622 --> 00:04:08,382 Speaker 2: Have you watched it? 58 00:04:09,622 --> 00:04:12,222 Speaker 3: I have seen this, so I did have to force 59 00:04:12,302 --> 00:04:16,582 Speaker 3: myself to watch it. I'm overall I'm not entirely a 60 00:04:16,702 --> 00:04:19,862 Speaker 3: huge fan of the show for a number of reasons. 61 00:04:19,382 --> 00:04:21,542 Speaker 1: That we can chat about if you like. 62 00:04:22,022 --> 00:04:25,462 Speaker 3: But yes, it seems to be a very big story 63 00:04:25,782 --> 00:04:26,862 Speaker 3: in the media right now. 64 00:04:27,382 --> 00:04:30,822 Speaker 2: So originally you weren't going to watch it, were you? 65 00:04:30,862 --> 00:04:35,982 Speaker 3: No, I wasn't. I'm not entirely comfortable with dramatization and 66 00:04:36,182 --> 00:04:41,862 Speaker 3: sensationalization of the story. The show has distorted the truth 67 00:04:42,342 --> 00:04:46,022 Speaker 3: a little bit as well, And I'm not that comfortable 68 00:04:46,062 --> 00:04:50,662 Speaker 3: with the capitalization of the harm that was caused to 69 00:04:50,702 --> 00:04:54,822 Speaker 3: people with cancer. So yeah, there's obviously Netflix and a 70 00:04:54,862 --> 00:04:59,662 Speaker 3: film studio and people profiting from that harm that was caused. 71 00:05:00,022 --> 00:05:02,742 Speaker 3: I've sort of been thinking a lot about the ethics 72 00:05:03,062 --> 00:05:07,902 Speaker 3: behind this kind of storytelling on that platform. I'm not 73 00:05:08,062 --> 00:05:12,062 Speaker 3: entirely comfortable with the way that these two characters Beal 74 00:05:12,222 --> 00:05:15,902 Speaker 3: and Miller, who Miller is based on a real life person, 75 00:05:16,222 --> 00:05:19,782 Speaker 3: jess Ainsco, who actually did have cancer and was trying 76 00:05:19,822 --> 00:05:24,182 Speaker 3: to heal her cancer naturally through wellness and natural remedies. 77 00:05:24,622 --> 00:05:28,062 Speaker 3: They've pitted these two women against each other in the show, 78 00:05:28,262 --> 00:05:31,702 Speaker 3: which actually didn't occur in real life, and I think 79 00:05:31,742 --> 00:05:39,742 Speaker 3: it's quite a cliche, unoriginal, stereotypical narrative to kind of 80 00:05:39,822 --> 00:05:45,982 Speaker 3: pit women against each other competitively as rivals, bitchy, gossipy, 81 00:05:46,222 --> 00:05:49,182 Speaker 3: which is kind of what was depicted in the show. 82 00:05:49,702 --> 00:05:51,982 Speaker 3: I just think it was really unnecessary, and I hope 83 00:05:52,102 --> 00:05:56,742 Speaker 3: that the core messages that are really important about this story, 84 00:05:56,902 --> 00:05:59,222 Speaker 3: about the harm that was cause to people, about how 85 00:05:59,262 --> 00:06:04,422 Speaker 3: we can easily be misled or consume misinformation online. I 86 00:06:04,502 --> 00:06:07,822 Speaker 3: just hope that those important messages aren't lost through the 87 00:06:07,822 --> 00:06:09,462 Speaker 3: glamorization of this show. 88 00:06:10,462 --> 00:06:13,502 Speaker 2: About your character in the show, because they use your name, 89 00:06:13,822 --> 00:06:17,182 Speaker 2: but your character is kind of an amalgamation of you 90 00:06:17,422 --> 00:06:20,422 Speaker 2: and you know, other people in Bell's life. How did 91 00:06:20,462 --> 00:06:22,022 Speaker 2: you feel about the way they portrayed you. 92 00:06:23,862 --> 00:06:28,422 Speaker 3: I actually was pleasantly surprised how my character was portrayed. 93 00:06:28,542 --> 00:06:31,022 Speaker 3: I had no idea what they were going to do 94 00:06:31,102 --> 00:06:33,502 Speaker 3: with it. I mean, obviously there's many things about my 95 00:06:33,582 --> 00:06:36,942 Speaker 3: character and in the show that aren't accurate. For example, 96 00:06:36,982 --> 00:06:41,742 Speaker 3: I wasn't Bell's manager or jess ains Co's manager Miller's character. 97 00:06:42,222 --> 00:06:47,902 Speaker 3: I did know jess ains Co, but we weren't close friends. However, 98 00:06:48,742 --> 00:06:53,222 Speaker 3: the scenes where I confront Bell, which is now dubbed 99 00:06:53,262 --> 00:06:56,622 Speaker 3: the intervention where I am urging her to come forward 100 00:06:56,822 --> 00:06:59,702 Speaker 3: and tell the truth. There was a lot of main 101 00:06:59,742 --> 00:07:03,382 Speaker 3: parts of that scene that were really accurate, and I 102 00:07:03,422 --> 00:07:05,822 Speaker 3: found that scene to be really compelling, and I think 103 00:07:06,222 --> 00:07:10,022 Speaker 3: it's really important for me for the world to see 104 00:07:10,102 --> 00:07:13,862 Speaker 3: that I did urge Belle to come forward and tell 105 00:07:13,902 --> 00:07:17,102 Speaker 3: the truth. I never set out to expose Belle to 106 00:07:17,182 --> 00:07:20,902 Speaker 3: have Belle canceled. I actually went to her as her 107 00:07:20,942 --> 00:07:24,062 Speaker 3: friend and said, if you come forward and tell the truth, 108 00:07:24,102 --> 00:07:26,822 Speaker 3: I will help you. I'll support you with the fallout. 109 00:07:27,502 --> 00:07:30,942 Speaker 3: And she refused to and had she done that, things 110 00:07:30,982 --> 00:07:33,342 Speaker 3: could have played out so much differently for her. 111 00:07:34,022 --> 00:07:35,622 Speaker 2: I want to go back to the start of your 112 00:07:35,662 --> 00:07:39,782 Speaker 2: story because it is quite different to the Netflix show. 113 00:07:41,102 --> 00:07:42,782 Speaker 2: Tell us about how you met Belle. 114 00:07:43,742 --> 00:07:47,142 Speaker 3: Sure So, I was actually doing a writing internship for 115 00:07:47,182 --> 00:07:50,502 Speaker 3: a publication in Melbourne at the time, and they were 116 00:07:50,542 --> 00:07:53,342 Speaker 3: more just interested in doing a puff piece on her. 117 00:07:53,462 --> 00:07:56,462 Speaker 3: It was we were kind of interested in what she 118 00:07:56,542 --> 00:08:00,422 Speaker 3: was doing with food and technology and being innovative and 119 00:08:00,462 --> 00:08:00,902 Speaker 3: this kind. 120 00:08:00,822 --> 00:08:03,902 Speaker 1: Of startup space. So I reached out. 121 00:08:03,822 --> 00:08:07,422 Speaker 3: To her and she invited me to the launch event 122 00:08:07,662 --> 00:08:09,382 Speaker 3: of the Whole Pantry app. 123 00:08:11,022 --> 00:08:11,342 Speaker 1: That night. 124 00:08:11,382 --> 00:08:13,822 Speaker 3: It was quite difficult for us to connect and chat. 125 00:08:13,902 --> 00:08:16,662 Speaker 3: She was hosting the event. There's so many people there 126 00:08:17,182 --> 00:08:19,142 Speaker 3: and so she was talking to a lot of people. 127 00:08:19,182 --> 00:08:23,702 Speaker 3: We just briefly kind of introduced ourselves, and then after 128 00:08:23,742 --> 00:08:27,382 Speaker 3: that event we met up for I think coffee, and 129 00:08:28,262 --> 00:08:31,862 Speaker 3: it was really difficult to kind of get any information 130 00:08:32,142 --> 00:08:34,342 Speaker 3: out of her, and so I just thought I'll just 131 00:08:34,382 --> 00:08:37,222 Speaker 3: build a bit of rupperhor with her. It turned out 132 00:08:37,262 --> 00:08:39,902 Speaker 3: we had some mutual friends. So then we went for 133 00:08:39,982 --> 00:08:43,822 Speaker 3: coffee again and then lunch and dinner, and we were 134 00:08:43,862 --> 00:08:50,102 Speaker 3: at similar events together and naturally just a friendship formed 135 00:08:50,182 --> 00:08:50,542 Speaker 3: from them. 136 00:08:51,662 --> 00:08:55,862 Speaker 2: What did being friends with Bell look like? Was it 137 00:08:56,182 --> 00:08:58,822 Speaker 2: constant messaging? Was it hanging out all the time? Was 138 00:08:58,862 --> 00:08:59,622 Speaker 2: she a good friend? 139 00:09:01,342 --> 00:09:06,582 Speaker 3: Belle was really warm and charismatic. She actually had a 140 00:09:06,622 --> 00:09:10,262 Speaker 3: way of making you feel really special, And looking back, 141 00:09:11,142 --> 00:09:15,422 Speaker 3: I think this was part of kind of it was 142 00:09:15,502 --> 00:09:19,022 Speaker 3: quite calculated on her behalf, because she had to deflect 143 00:09:19,062 --> 00:09:22,942 Speaker 3: from herself so much, and if you've seen interviews with her, 144 00:09:23,062 --> 00:09:26,182 Speaker 3: especially this sixty minutes interviewer in the show, it's very 145 00:09:26,222 --> 00:09:29,422 Speaker 3: difficult to get a straight answer from her. So she 146 00:09:30,142 --> 00:09:33,582 Speaker 3: had a way of really making the attention about the 147 00:09:33,662 --> 00:09:37,902 Speaker 3: other person, so you always felt really kind of special 148 00:09:38,262 --> 00:09:42,902 Speaker 3: and important in her presence. Our friendship looked like going 149 00:09:42,902 --> 00:09:45,982 Speaker 3: out for lunch. It centered a lot around food. And 150 00:09:46,022 --> 00:09:50,022 Speaker 3: what was quite interesting is my partner at the time 151 00:09:50,622 --> 00:09:55,222 Speaker 3: actually had a traumatic brain injury, and Beao really connected 152 00:09:55,262 --> 00:09:58,662 Speaker 3: with him and developed a really close friendship with him 153 00:09:58,822 --> 00:10:04,182 Speaker 3: because she claimed that because of her brain tumor. That 154 00:10:04,302 --> 00:10:06,902 Speaker 3: also meant she had a traumatic brain injury as a 155 00:10:06,942 --> 00:10:11,222 Speaker 3: result of the brain tumor. What with no about Baal 156 00:10:11,502 --> 00:10:16,142 Speaker 3: is that she gravitated to people, especially you know, people 157 00:10:16,142 --> 00:10:20,342 Speaker 3: with cancer, to leverage them to her own advantage, to 158 00:10:20,422 --> 00:10:23,022 Speaker 3: learn about their symptoms and take them on as her own. 159 00:10:23,702 --> 00:10:26,742 Speaker 1: So she was actually doing that with my partner at 160 00:10:26,742 --> 00:10:27,102 Speaker 1: the time. 161 00:10:27,262 --> 00:10:31,742 Speaker 3: However, you know, I wasn't aware of that, and so yes, 162 00:10:31,822 --> 00:10:36,382 Speaker 3: they they had a close friendship and and out friendship 163 00:10:36,462 --> 00:10:38,622 Speaker 3: circle kind of just grew as well from there. 164 00:10:39,182 --> 00:10:41,222 Speaker 2: What did you think of her success about the whole 165 00:10:41,262 --> 00:10:43,862 Speaker 2: pantry and everything she was doing in that space. 166 00:10:45,902 --> 00:10:48,462 Speaker 3: I was quite impressed by the business she was building. 167 00:10:48,902 --> 00:10:51,542 Speaker 3: She was quite innovative. 168 00:10:51,022 --> 00:10:53,902 Speaker 1: For that era. It was really early. 169 00:10:53,702 --> 00:10:59,022 Speaker 3: Days of social media, especially Instagram. Building an audience, connecting 170 00:10:59,062 --> 00:11:05,062 Speaker 3: with an audience, getting on the Apple Watch. So that 171 00:11:05,382 --> 00:11:08,022 Speaker 3: was compelling to me at the time. This, you know, 172 00:11:08,102 --> 00:11:11,102 Speaker 3: regardless if she was sick or not, this young woman, 173 00:11:11,542 --> 00:11:16,382 Speaker 3: this young single mother, pioneering you know, this this technology 174 00:11:16,582 --> 00:11:18,102 Speaker 3: and this business. 175 00:11:18,382 --> 00:11:21,422 Speaker 1: So that that was that side of it was compelling 176 00:11:21,422 --> 00:11:21,862 Speaker 1: at the time. 177 00:11:22,582 --> 00:11:26,342 Speaker 2: When did you start getting a weird feeling? What were 178 00:11:26,382 --> 00:11:28,342 Speaker 2: the first things that kind of struck you as odd? 179 00:11:29,782 --> 00:11:33,422 Speaker 3: So behind the scenes, there would be things like we 180 00:11:33,542 --> 00:11:37,422 Speaker 3: would go out drinking and one night, you know, she 181 00:11:37,582 --> 00:11:40,502 Speaker 3: ordered shots and we were doing shots and I said, oh, 182 00:11:41,102 --> 00:11:43,262 Speaker 3: should you really be drinking? Like, you know, she was 183 00:11:43,302 --> 00:11:49,302 Speaker 3: obviously doing this very strict wellness natural protocol to heal 184 00:11:49,342 --> 00:11:54,462 Speaker 3: herself from cancer, so drinking alcohol excessively was kind of 185 00:11:54,702 --> 00:11:57,502 Speaker 3: really in conflict of that. So I said, you know, 186 00:11:57,502 --> 00:11:59,622 Speaker 3: should you be drinking? And she said, well, I'm going 187 00:11:59,702 --> 00:12:03,182 Speaker 3: to die anyway, so why not have some fun. And 188 00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:05,902 Speaker 3: then there was a time where she also went to 189 00:12:05,942 --> 00:12:08,782 Speaker 3: the solarium, which I thought was a bit odd given 190 00:12:09,142 --> 00:12:13,702 Speaker 3: the risk of skin cancer with using solarium. And then 191 00:12:13,982 --> 00:12:17,902 Speaker 3: the biggest thing for me, well, apart from that, she 192 00:12:17,982 --> 00:12:22,302 Speaker 3: never appeared sick ever, never saw her sick. She was 193 00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:28,062 Speaker 3: the epitome of wellness. Right, this beautiful, long, lush hair. 194 00:12:28,382 --> 00:12:33,342 Speaker 3: She was glowing, she was active, happy, and then at 195 00:12:33,422 --> 00:12:40,062 Speaker 3: her son's fourth birthday party, she all of a sudden 196 00:12:41,022 --> 00:12:45,102 Speaker 3: collapsed to the floor and was having what appeared to 197 00:12:45,102 --> 00:12:48,062 Speaker 3: be quite a violent seizure. She was convulsing on the ground, 198 00:12:48,582 --> 00:12:52,142 Speaker 3: saliva was coming out of her mouth, and this went 199 00:12:52,182 --> 00:12:56,262 Speaker 3: on for a really long time, about forty minutes, and 200 00:12:57,622 --> 00:13:01,862 Speaker 3: about halfway through, I said, I'm calling an ambulance, and 201 00:13:01,902 --> 00:13:04,142 Speaker 3: all of a sudden she kind of comes out of 202 00:13:04,182 --> 00:13:08,462 Speaker 3: the seizure and says, no, I don't want Western medicine involved, 203 00:13:09,382 --> 00:13:11,342 Speaker 3: and so I said, okay, and then she kind of 204 00:13:11,342 --> 00:13:14,182 Speaker 3: went back into the seizure and then it kind of 205 00:13:14,182 --> 00:13:17,702 Speaker 3: tape it off, and there was just something about it 206 00:13:17,742 --> 00:13:22,982 Speaker 3: that just seems really performative to me. And Yeah, it 207 00:13:23,062 --> 00:13:26,982 Speaker 3: was that day I left that party that I just 208 00:13:27,062 --> 00:13:29,582 Speaker 3: knew in my gut that something was really wrong. 209 00:13:30,222 --> 00:13:32,942 Speaker 2: Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was soon after that 210 00:13:33,022 --> 00:13:37,342 Speaker 2: birthday that she announced that her cancer was spreading. But 211 00:13:37,422 --> 00:13:38,582 Speaker 2: how did you find out about that? 212 00:13:39,902 --> 00:13:44,462 Speaker 3: Yes, so she announced on Instagram that she now had 213 00:13:44,542 --> 00:13:48,662 Speaker 3: stage four cancer. It had spread from her brain to spleen, 214 00:13:48,782 --> 00:13:52,342 Speaker 3: her uterus, in her blood. It was basically a death sentence, 215 00:13:52,542 --> 00:13:56,222 Speaker 3: and myself and most of her close friends we all 216 00:13:56,262 --> 00:14:01,302 Speaker 3: found out by seeing it on her Instagram, which you 217 00:14:01,302 --> 00:14:01,862 Speaker 3: know it was. 218 00:14:02,142 --> 00:14:02,662 Speaker 1: We thought was. 219 00:14:02,742 --> 00:14:08,742 Speaker 3: Quite odd that that's such serious diagnosis, and you know, 220 00:14:08,822 --> 00:14:13,382 Speaker 3: we were all so you know, caring for her and 221 00:14:13,742 --> 00:14:17,102 Speaker 3: concerned about her. So, yeah, it was really strange that 222 00:14:17,702 --> 00:14:22,142 Speaker 3: it wasn't something that she shared with anyone really directly. 223 00:14:22,462 --> 00:14:25,342 Speaker 3: It was just it was just kind of a press announcement. 224 00:14:26,062 --> 00:14:29,302 Speaker 2: Once you had this hunch, it's a big leap to 225 00:14:29,342 --> 00:14:31,862 Speaker 2: go from like having a feeling that something's not quite 226 00:14:31,942 --> 00:14:37,662 Speaker 2: right to actually like talking to someone about it. Did 227 00:14:37,702 --> 00:14:40,542 Speaker 2: you kind of mention it to friends and family, try 228 00:14:40,542 --> 00:14:43,382 Speaker 2: and get some other people involved in how you're feeling. 229 00:14:44,102 --> 00:14:47,582 Speaker 3: Yes, I did go to one of our mutual friends, 230 00:14:47,942 --> 00:14:52,102 Speaker 3: and I shared my concerns with him what I thought 231 00:14:52,702 --> 00:14:55,542 Speaker 3: regret flags and why things didn't add up for me, 232 00:14:56,302 --> 00:15:01,262 Speaker 3: and he started to see that, yeah, okay, some of 233 00:15:01,302 --> 00:15:04,502 Speaker 3: this doesn't make sense. So I asked him if he 234 00:15:04,502 --> 00:15:09,182 Speaker 3: would come with me to basically hold an intervention and 235 00:15:09,302 --> 00:15:12,782 Speaker 3: kind of confront vow and try and get some answers 236 00:15:12,862 --> 00:15:17,662 Speaker 3: from her. So he agreed to do that, and we 237 00:15:17,742 --> 00:15:22,342 Speaker 3: went over to Bell's house unannounced, and we sat her 238 00:15:22,422 --> 00:15:26,422 Speaker 3: down and I just straight out asked her if she 239 00:15:26,502 --> 00:15:34,142 Speaker 3: had cancer, and what did she say? She was acting 240 00:15:34,302 --> 00:15:38,222 Speaker 3: kind of very defensive. She was saying that I was 241 00:15:38,222 --> 00:15:42,582 Speaker 3: interrogating her. She started to slump down in her chair 242 00:15:42,902 --> 00:15:45,342 Speaker 3: and say that she felt sick and was acting kind 243 00:15:45,342 --> 00:15:48,822 Speaker 3: of faint, which at that point I kind of knew 244 00:15:49,102 --> 00:15:54,102 Speaker 3: was based on having scene the seizure, I kind of 245 00:15:54,182 --> 00:15:57,382 Speaker 3: knew that maybe this was another tactic of hers to 246 00:15:57,462 --> 00:15:59,742 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you know, act sick or as 247 00:15:59,742 --> 00:16:00,662 Speaker 3: a way to deflect. 248 00:16:01,582 --> 00:16:03,622 Speaker 1: She said that of course she was sick. 249 00:16:04,542 --> 00:16:09,982 Speaker 3: I basically demanded her to go get any medical evidence 250 00:16:10,222 --> 00:16:13,742 Speaker 3: to prove that she had cancer, any scanned, any hospital, 251 00:16:13,862 --> 00:16:17,102 Speaker 3: doctor reports. She said that she didn't like to keep 252 00:16:17,142 --> 00:16:21,062 Speaker 3: those documents because it's negative energy in her house. And 253 00:16:21,102 --> 00:16:24,822 Speaker 3: so I asked her about this stage four diagnosis that 254 00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:27,462 Speaker 3: she had just announced, and I said, what hospital did 255 00:16:27,502 --> 00:16:30,702 Speaker 3: you go to to get that diagnosis? You know, I'm 256 00:16:30,742 --> 00:16:35,142 Speaker 3: sure that it was a major hospital in Melbourne, And 257 00:16:35,222 --> 00:16:37,542 Speaker 3: she said she didn't go to a hospital. She went 258 00:16:37,582 --> 00:16:40,862 Speaker 3: to some random doctor's house in the suburbs. He picked 259 00:16:40,862 --> 00:16:44,862 Speaker 3: her up and drove her there and gave her the diagnosis, 260 00:16:45,102 --> 00:16:47,742 Speaker 3: And I asked her who was that doctor? 261 00:16:47,862 --> 00:16:50,102 Speaker 1: What's his name? And she said doctor Phil. 262 00:16:51,102 --> 00:16:55,422 Speaker 3: And at that point I actually thought it was so 263 00:16:55,582 --> 00:17:00,262 Speaker 3: comical that the story was her story was that ridiculous 264 00:17:00,582 --> 00:17:07,462 Speaker 3: and that so unplausible. So yeah, doctor Phil just had 265 00:17:07,462 --> 00:17:12,542 Speaker 3: me stumped. And so I said, if you if you've 266 00:17:12,582 --> 00:17:15,302 Speaker 3: not had a proper diagnosis at a hospital in some 267 00:17:15,422 --> 00:17:19,662 Speaker 3: random house by this doctor, you know, does that mean 268 00:17:19,662 --> 00:17:25,102 Speaker 3: you're your diagnosis is questionable? And she said, well, possibly 269 00:17:25,182 --> 00:17:30,142 Speaker 3: because doctor Phil's gone missing. He's gone to ground, and 270 00:17:30,422 --> 00:17:34,182 Speaker 3: none of his colleagues know where he is. And so 271 00:17:34,222 --> 00:17:39,262 Speaker 3: obviously that all just sounded even more suspicious and unbelievable. 272 00:17:40,422 --> 00:17:45,782 Speaker 3: So at this point she called Julie Gibbs, their editor 273 00:17:46,022 --> 00:17:50,782 Speaker 3: publisher at Penguin Books. And she's set asking Julie or 274 00:17:50,822 --> 00:17:54,902 Speaker 3: accusing Julie of speaking to her friends, and one of 275 00:17:54,942 --> 00:17:58,182 Speaker 3: her friends is jealous and accusing her of not being sick. 276 00:17:57,982 --> 00:18:02,022 Speaker 1: And did Julie put me up to this? Basically, And 277 00:18:02,062 --> 00:18:04,702 Speaker 1: from what I could tell, Julie must have. 278 00:18:04,902 --> 00:18:07,182 Speaker 3: I think Julie seemed really confused on the end the 279 00:18:07,222 --> 00:18:11,542 Speaker 3: other end of the phone. Well, then called someone else. 280 00:18:11,622 --> 00:18:15,662 Speaker 3: She phoned her acupuncturist and asked him to come over, 281 00:18:16,622 --> 00:18:21,462 Speaker 3: and when he arrived, she said to him, tell them 282 00:18:21,582 --> 00:18:22,622 Speaker 3: that I have cancer. 283 00:18:22,902 --> 00:18:23,902 Speaker 1: And this was kind of. 284 00:18:23,862 --> 00:18:26,982 Speaker 3: Her way to basically prove to us that she had cancer. 285 00:18:27,462 --> 00:18:30,742 Speaker 3: And he said, well, of course you have cancer. And 286 00:18:30,782 --> 00:18:32,702 Speaker 3: I said, well, how do you know that she has cancer? 287 00:18:32,862 --> 00:18:35,182 Speaker 1: And he said, because she told me so. 288 00:18:35,222 --> 00:18:37,782 Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like it was a short conversation. It 289 00:18:37,902 --> 00:18:40,422 Speaker 2: was over a few hours or so if you had 290 00:18:40,462 --> 00:18:42,302 Speaker 2: all these different phone calls and visitors. 291 00:18:42,342 --> 00:18:45,262 Speaker 3: And yes, it was quite a few hours. I mean 292 00:18:45,342 --> 00:18:50,582 Speaker 3: it seemed like forever at the time. I also went 293 00:18:50,662 --> 00:18:54,102 Speaker 3: upstairs at her house to try and find Clive, her partner, 294 00:18:54,262 --> 00:18:59,862 Speaker 3: who was somewhat involved in her business and the whole pantry. 295 00:19:00,622 --> 00:19:04,782 Speaker 3: And Clive was someone who was kind of really difficult 296 00:19:04,822 --> 00:19:07,622 Speaker 3: to figure out. He was kind of always in the background. 297 00:19:08,182 --> 00:19:13,262 Speaker 3: He was quite withdrawn, very quiet. So I went upstairs 298 00:19:13,302 --> 00:19:16,622 Speaker 3: and I found Clive and I said, Clive, you need 299 00:19:16,662 --> 00:19:20,862 Speaker 3: to tell me the truth. And he said she would 300 00:19:20,902 --> 00:19:26,262 Speaker 3: destroy anyone that tries to expose her, and that he 301 00:19:26,342 --> 00:19:30,182 Speaker 3: needs to protect her little boy. So it was kind 302 00:19:30,222 --> 00:19:34,662 Speaker 3: of a very cryptic, confronting answer I got from him. 303 00:19:34,942 --> 00:19:38,262 Speaker 3: He then came downstairs with me, and he sat down 304 00:19:38,262 --> 00:19:41,222 Speaker 3: with us and we were trying to make sense of 305 00:19:41,262 --> 00:19:45,582 Speaker 3: it all, and it kind of the penny didn't drop 306 00:19:45,782 --> 00:19:47,382 Speaker 3: for me until a little bit later on. 307 00:19:47,462 --> 00:19:49,182 Speaker 1: But he made a comment that night. 308 00:19:49,662 --> 00:19:52,782 Speaker 3: Because I did say it about which you can see 309 00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:56,142 Speaker 3: in the show. I said to her, this is your 310 00:19:56,182 --> 00:19:59,782 Speaker 3: inner circle knocking at your door. This is where it starts, 311 00:19:59,822 --> 00:20:03,502 Speaker 3: and this is where it can end, and urging her 312 00:20:03,942 --> 00:20:06,982 Speaker 3: to come forward on her own terms and tell the truth. 313 00:20:07,862 --> 00:20:11,382 Speaker 3: And at that point when I was saying that, Clive 314 00:20:12,102 --> 00:20:14,942 Speaker 3: said to bow Belle, you need. 315 00:20:14,782 --> 00:20:15,982 Speaker 1: To get the books in order. 316 00:20:17,022 --> 00:20:19,542 Speaker 3: And I think what that sort of meant later on 317 00:20:20,262 --> 00:20:24,502 Speaker 3: was in regards to the charity fraud that Belle was conducting. 318 00:20:24,982 --> 00:20:28,342 Speaker 3: So the books for her business, you know, weren't in order. 319 00:20:28,422 --> 00:20:31,262 Speaker 3: She needed to kind of start covering her tracks or 320 00:20:31,302 --> 00:20:35,382 Speaker 3: start paying the charities. So he was kind of hinting 321 00:20:35,422 --> 00:20:38,622 Speaker 3: to Bowl and basically just just putting it out there 322 00:20:38,862 --> 00:20:40,262 Speaker 3: that she needed to. 323 00:20:40,262 --> 00:20:41,582 Speaker 1: Tie up loose ends. 324 00:20:42,222 --> 00:20:49,782 Speaker 3: So I left that night just being absolutely gobsmacked that 325 00:20:50,582 --> 00:20:54,142 Speaker 3: it just had confirmed everything for me that it was 326 00:20:54,182 --> 00:20:58,942 Speaker 3: all a lie. There was at times for me where 327 00:20:59,342 --> 00:21:02,422 Speaker 3: there was one percent of me that felt what if 328 00:21:02,462 --> 00:21:05,102 Speaker 3: I've got this all wrong. What if I'm accusing this 329 00:21:05,302 --> 00:21:09,542 Speaker 3: poor young woman of not having canceled when. 330 00:21:09,382 --> 00:21:10,062 Speaker 1: She really does. 331 00:21:10,102 --> 00:21:14,062 Speaker 3: But but that night it just solidified everything for me, 332 00:21:14,702 --> 00:21:19,102 Speaker 3: and so I left there urging Bell again to come 333 00:21:19,142 --> 00:21:21,062 Speaker 3: forward and tell the truth. 334 00:21:21,302 --> 00:21:24,262 Speaker 1: And then a few days later I. 335 00:21:24,302 --> 00:21:26,782 Speaker 3: Called her and I asked her if she was ready 336 00:21:26,822 --> 00:21:31,262 Speaker 3: to come forward, and again I was met with defensiveness, 337 00:21:31,662 --> 00:21:35,502 Speaker 3: some aggression. And then it was maybe a week or 338 00:21:35,502 --> 00:21:38,182 Speaker 3: a couple of weeks after that it was her book launch, 339 00:21:38,342 --> 00:21:45,102 Speaker 3: and we actually weren't really obviously kind of friends anymore 340 00:21:45,102 --> 00:21:47,182 Speaker 3: at this point on talking terms. There was a lot 341 00:21:47,182 --> 00:21:50,502 Speaker 3: of tension. She knew that I knew, but I still 342 00:21:50,582 --> 00:21:52,902 Speaker 3: rocked up to her book launch, and as you'll see 343 00:21:52,902 --> 00:21:54,822 Speaker 3: in the show, I stood there in the crowd and 344 00:21:56,422 --> 00:21:59,302 Speaker 3: just really stared at her and just made a point 345 00:21:59,422 --> 00:22:02,622 Speaker 3: of you know that there's someone here that knows and 346 00:22:03,062 --> 00:22:07,382 Speaker 3: is going to hold you accountable. And the book launch, yeah, 347 00:22:07,422 --> 00:22:10,942 Speaker 3: she just acted like nothing was going on. 348 00:22:11,622 --> 00:22:14,902 Speaker 2: Were you angry through all of this? Once you'd had 349 00:22:14,942 --> 00:22:18,702 Speaker 2: that kind of confrontation as they call it, and you 350 00:22:18,782 --> 00:22:23,062 Speaker 2: were kind of waiting for her to admit what were 351 00:22:23,102 --> 00:22:24,302 Speaker 2: the emotions? Was it anger? 352 00:22:25,222 --> 00:22:29,862 Speaker 3: I was very angry. My mother has battled cancer twice. 353 00:22:29,942 --> 00:22:32,262 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean we all, we all have a 354 00:22:32,302 --> 00:22:36,142 Speaker 3: connection to someone who's had cancer, or we know of 355 00:22:36,262 --> 00:22:40,862 Speaker 3: someone that have someone close to them who's been touched 356 00:22:40,902 --> 00:22:45,942 Speaker 3: by cancer. So yeah, it made me very angry at 357 00:22:46,702 --> 00:22:50,142 Speaker 3: What was so alarming is that the message she was 358 00:22:50,182 --> 00:22:55,862 Speaker 3: putting out was so dangerous because really vulnerable people, people 359 00:22:55,902 --> 00:23:00,622 Speaker 3: with cancer, were making really serious decisions about their life 360 00:23:00,662 --> 00:23:04,822 Speaker 3: and about their health. So yeah, it made my blood boil, 361 00:23:05,102 --> 00:23:09,422 Speaker 3: especially because now I knew that I made her aware 362 00:23:09,542 --> 00:23:15,062 Speaker 3: of how serious the situation was. There's been speculation and 363 00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:17,502 Speaker 3: kind of this narrative about it was just this young 364 00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:21,742 Speaker 3: woman who was very naive, this lie got away with 365 00:23:21,782 --> 00:23:26,182 Speaker 3: her and it snowballed. However, that's not what I experienced 366 00:23:26,262 --> 00:23:30,382 Speaker 3: When I went to her and you know, made her 367 00:23:30,822 --> 00:23:34,582 Speaker 3: really aware of how serious this wasn't and urged her 368 00:23:34,582 --> 00:23:37,622 Speaker 3: to come forward, she just doubled down. 369 00:23:38,622 --> 00:23:41,222 Speaker 2: I think the part of it that gets to me 370 00:23:41,302 --> 00:23:44,902 Speaker 2: as well is, and I'd love your insight on this, 371 00:23:45,222 --> 00:23:48,422 Speaker 2: is how she would gravitate towards people that were sick 372 00:23:48,462 --> 00:23:50,822 Speaker 2: and then kind of be a bit of a chameleon 373 00:23:50,862 --> 00:23:53,662 Speaker 2: and emulate the things that she was seeing that's a 374 00:23:53,742 --> 00:23:55,062 Speaker 2: very calculated thing to do. 375 00:23:56,942 --> 00:24:00,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's what's also very tragic about this 376 00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:04,822 Speaker 3: story is there were very sick, vulnerable people that she 377 00:24:04,862 --> 00:24:09,742 Speaker 3: got very close to. One was a little boy who 378 00:24:09,782 --> 00:24:14,382 Speaker 3: did have brain cancer, and she was fund raising on 379 00:24:14,502 --> 00:24:19,382 Speaker 3: behalf of him and his family to pay for him 380 00:24:19,382 --> 00:24:24,582 Speaker 3: to potentially have life saving surgery, and that money was 381 00:24:24,622 --> 00:24:29,662 Speaker 3: never handed over, and unfortunately that little boy has passed away. 382 00:24:30,062 --> 00:24:31,822 Speaker 1: I'm not saying he passed away. 383 00:24:31,622 --> 00:24:36,142 Speaker 3: Because of his association with Belle, but also he was 384 00:24:36,262 --> 00:24:40,622 Speaker 3: at the birthday party that day that she faked the seizure, 385 00:24:41,102 --> 00:24:45,582 Speaker 3: so that little boy Bell's son, they had to witness 386 00:24:46,102 --> 00:24:49,582 Speaker 3: this lie sort of firsthand as well. So the impact 387 00:24:50,662 --> 00:24:55,022 Speaker 3: it had on, you know, really vulnerable people is actually 388 00:24:55,582 --> 00:24:56,582 Speaker 3: it is so shocking. 389 00:25:00,942 --> 00:25:03,902 Speaker 2: After the break, Chanelle tells us about how she approached 390 00:25:03,902 --> 00:25:07,422 Speaker 2: the journalists who would help her expose Belle Gibson's lies 391 00:25:07,662 --> 00:25:15,262 Speaker 2: to the world. What did you do next? Obviously you 392 00:25:15,302 --> 00:25:19,262 Speaker 2: could see that book launch, she wasn't admitting anything. Do 393 00:25:19,382 --> 00:25:21,622 Speaker 2: you go to the police, do you go straight to 394 00:25:21,662 --> 00:25:23,582 Speaker 2: the journalists? What are your next steps? 395 00:25:24,462 --> 00:25:26,662 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the first step I took was going to 396 00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:31,022 Speaker 3: the police, and the police said that I didn't have 397 00:25:31,062 --> 00:25:34,862 Speaker 3: any evidence, which I didn't, and it's obviously very difficult 398 00:25:34,982 --> 00:25:40,462 Speaker 3: to get access to someone's medical records. So yeah, the 399 00:25:40,502 --> 00:25:44,382 Speaker 3: police basically turned me away. I went to a very 400 00:25:44,462 --> 00:25:51,262 Speaker 3: high profile lawyer and he accused me of basically defamation 401 00:25:51,422 --> 00:25:55,422 Speaker 3: and slander. He happened to have a very close friend 402 00:25:55,662 --> 00:26:00,622 Speaker 3: who had cancer, and he was telling me that he 403 00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:06,062 Speaker 3: can't even fathom the thought of someone going around accusing, 404 00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:11,902 Speaker 3: you know, someone of cancer, of lying and faking. So yeah, 405 00:26:11,942 --> 00:26:15,102 Speaker 3: for some reason that the lawyer, he kind of took 406 00:26:15,142 --> 00:26:19,022 Speaker 3: it quite personally, and yeah, it made me feel very 407 00:26:19,342 --> 00:26:25,382 Speaker 3: uncomfortable and didn't help me. I then went to Australia's 408 00:26:25,382 --> 00:26:29,502 Speaker 3: top investigative journalist at the time hadn't heard of Bell before. 409 00:26:30,102 --> 00:26:32,262 Speaker 3: He said he might look into it, he might not, 410 00:26:32,302 --> 00:26:35,302 Speaker 3: and I never heard back from him again. This ended 411 00:26:35,382 --> 00:26:38,262 Speaker 3: up being over a period of sort of kind of 412 00:26:38,342 --> 00:26:43,462 Speaker 3: weeks two months, and yeah, I was talking to people 413 00:26:43,502 --> 00:26:47,062 Speaker 3: I knew. I was trying to leverage my network to 414 00:26:47,062 --> 00:26:49,382 Speaker 3: see if anyone could put me in touch with someone 415 00:26:49,422 --> 00:26:52,822 Speaker 3: credible who would believe me, who could vouch for me 416 00:26:53,102 --> 00:26:56,662 Speaker 3: that I was telling the truth. And yeah, so it 417 00:26:56,702 --> 00:26:59,662 Speaker 3: took quite a long time. To get to that point, 418 00:27:00,262 --> 00:27:04,982 Speaker 3: and during that period I started to feel very powerless 419 00:27:05,342 --> 00:27:12,102 Speaker 3: and realized how challenging and difficult it is to essentially 420 00:27:12,182 --> 00:27:14,382 Speaker 3: kind of be a whistleblower and come forward with the 421 00:27:14,422 --> 00:27:17,902 Speaker 3: truth and have people look into it and fact check 422 00:27:17,982 --> 00:27:22,942 Speaker 3: it and stop people from causing harm. So that was 423 00:27:23,022 --> 00:27:29,302 Speaker 3: really disheartening. So then eventually my former boss spoke to 424 00:27:30,182 --> 00:27:32,862 Speaker 3: the editor or someone high up at the AGE and 425 00:27:33,742 --> 00:27:36,582 Speaker 3: they got one of their journalists to get in touch 426 00:27:36,622 --> 00:27:41,062 Speaker 3: with me, and that journalist was Bo Donnelly, who with 427 00:27:41,342 --> 00:27:44,942 Speaker 3: Nick Tuscano, they have published the book The Woman Who 428 00:27:44,942 --> 00:27:49,622 Speaker 3: Fooled the World, which the Netflix show has been adapted from. So, 429 00:27:50,302 --> 00:27:55,022 Speaker 3: as Bo tells the story, he just thought that this 430 00:27:55,222 --> 00:27:59,062 Speaker 3: was just some random tip off that he had to 431 00:27:59,182 --> 00:28:01,742 Speaker 3: check off his list, that maybe it was a jealous 432 00:28:01,742 --> 00:28:06,022 Speaker 3: friend with an axe to grind, or you know, they 433 00:28:06,102 --> 00:28:09,022 Speaker 3: get tip offs come into the newsroom all the time, 434 00:28:09,142 --> 00:28:12,862 Speaker 3: and most of them don't really go anywhere. So he 435 00:28:12,902 --> 00:28:15,142 Speaker 3: actually just called me on his lunch break. He was 436 00:28:15,182 --> 00:28:17,782 Speaker 3: at a cafe. He was very noisy. I just started 437 00:28:17,782 --> 00:28:21,662 Speaker 3: to tell him what I knew, what I experienced, and 438 00:28:22,302 --> 00:28:27,422 Speaker 3: what my motivation was for coming forward, which was just 439 00:28:27,622 --> 00:28:32,342 Speaker 3: for Bale to stop causing harm to vulnerable people and 440 00:28:32,422 --> 00:28:33,862 Speaker 3: spreading this misinformation. 441 00:28:34,702 --> 00:28:34,982 Speaker 1: Sorry. 442 00:28:34,982 --> 00:28:38,662 Speaker 3: Bo very quickly from that call felt that I was 443 00:28:38,742 --> 00:28:42,702 Speaker 3: very credible and started to look into the case straight away. 444 00:28:43,582 --> 00:28:47,582 Speaker 2: In the Netflix show, the first article that they release 445 00:28:48,302 --> 00:28:51,502 Speaker 2: is that money fraud angle, you know, the charities that 446 00:28:52,022 --> 00:28:54,542 Speaker 2: weren't getting the donations that Belle promised. Is that what 447 00:28:54,622 --> 00:28:57,022 Speaker 2: happened in real life? Is that the only angle they 448 00:28:57,062 --> 00:28:59,102 Speaker 2: could put out to start with. 449 00:28:59,422 --> 00:29:02,542 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. The Age also couldn't run. 450 00:29:02,422 --> 00:29:07,502 Speaker 3: A story that they were just suspecting that this woman 451 00:29:07,582 --> 00:29:10,102 Speaker 3: didn't have cancer. The lawyers of the Age shut it 452 00:29:10,142 --> 00:29:13,862 Speaker 3: down very quickly because again the Age couldn't get access 453 00:29:13,902 --> 00:29:17,502 Speaker 3: to her medical records. There was no way to verify 454 00:29:17,822 --> 00:29:23,742 Speaker 3: the status of her health. And so the journalists Boe 455 00:29:23,782 --> 00:29:27,582 Speaker 3: and Nick they thought, well, if she's lying about something 456 00:29:27,702 --> 00:29:31,422 Speaker 3: as big as this, as big as having cancer, and 457 00:29:32,142 --> 00:29:35,622 Speaker 3: broadcasting that to the world, then what else is she 458 00:29:35,742 --> 00:29:40,662 Speaker 3: lying about? And I shared with them that comment that 459 00:29:40,822 --> 00:29:43,862 Speaker 3: Clive had made the night that I had confronted Belle 460 00:29:44,142 --> 00:29:49,342 Speaker 3: about the state of the business books, and so they 461 00:29:49,382 --> 00:29:54,142 Speaker 3: started looking into whether she had actually made any donations 462 00:29:54,662 --> 00:29:57,662 Speaker 3: to the charities that she had been fundraising on behalf 463 00:29:57,782 --> 00:30:01,342 Speaker 3: of and they all said they never received a cent 464 00:30:01,902 --> 00:30:02,302 Speaker 3: from her. 465 00:30:03,302 --> 00:30:07,622 Speaker 2: So once that angle is out there, that's obviously a 466 00:30:07,702 --> 00:30:11,942 Speaker 2: huge hit to Bell and that's the start, that's how 467 00:30:11,982 --> 00:30:16,062 Speaker 2: it starts to kind of unravel more publicly. Were they 468 00:30:16,142 --> 00:30:20,742 Speaker 2: then able to verify the cancer claims? How did they 469 00:30:21,102 --> 00:30:23,862 Speaker 2: manage to get that part of the investigation out sure? 470 00:30:24,102 --> 00:30:30,422 Speaker 3: So coincidentally, around this time that I had gone to 471 00:30:30,662 --> 00:30:33,462 Speaker 3: the journalists at that age and they had reported on 472 00:30:33,502 --> 00:30:37,542 Speaker 3: her charity fraud, there was actually a journalist at the Australian, 473 00:30:37,662 --> 00:30:43,142 Speaker 3: Richard Gilliot, who had started to look into Boo and 474 00:30:43,182 --> 00:30:46,902 Speaker 3: he'd think he'd written some stories about Jessain's Coe, who 475 00:30:47,462 --> 00:30:50,782 Speaker 3: in the Netflix show is the character Miller. His wife 476 00:30:50,862 --> 00:30:55,542 Speaker 3: actually had cancer and I think she had looked into 477 00:30:55,822 --> 00:30:59,582 Speaker 3: natural remedies and she'd kind of come across jess And 478 00:30:59,622 --> 00:31:03,182 Speaker 3: then as a result of that Richard it was actually 479 00:31:03,262 --> 00:31:07,662 Speaker 3: from Richard's own personal experience with his wife that he 480 00:31:07,862 --> 00:31:11,262 Speaker 3: started then sort of looking into these people, and then 481 00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:14,822 Speaker 3: he actually at the same time was starting to unravel 482 00:31:15,022 --> 00:31:20,062 Speaker 3: at all. And then it was very shortly after the 483 00:31:20,142 --> 00:31:22,982 Speaker 3: Age had broken the charity fraud story. I think it 484 00:31:23,022 --> 00:31:26,102 Speaker 3: was within a few days that Richard Gilliot The Australian 485 00:31:26,702 --> 00:31:29,102 Speaker 3: broke the story that Belle didn't have cancer, he met 486 00:31:29,142 --> 00:31:33,902 Speaker 3: with her and she said the same thing to her 487 00:31:34,062 --> 00:31:39,862 Speaker 3: to him, that her diagnosis was questionable and she herself 488 00:31:40,022 --> 00:31:43,342 Speaker 3: actually didn't know for certain if she had cancer or not. 489 00:31:44,502 --> 00:31:51,022 Speaker 2: Once these stories and investigations started to get published, did 490 00:31:51,062 --> 00:31:53,062 Speaker 2: any of it shock you? Was there any kind of 491 00:31:53,382 --> 00:31:56,862 Speaker 2: revelations that came out that you didn't realize? 492 00:31:57,902 --> 00:32:01,022 Speaker 3: Nothing was really shocking to me at that point anymore. 493 00:32:01,822 --> 00:32:05,342 Speaker 3: When it came to bell I feel like I kind 494 00:32:05,382 --> 00:32:08,462 Speaker 3: of seen the worst of it, especially with that seizure. 495 00:32:08,542 --> 00:32:11,222 Speaker 3: It's just it's something I'll never i don't know, be 496 00:32:11,302 --> 00:32:12,982 Speaker 3: able to get out of my mind. 497 00:32:13,102 --> 00:32:16,262 Speaker 1: And the way the children reacted that day. 498 00:32:16,342 --> 00:32:21,022 Speaker 3: So yeah, nothing, nothing really surprised me or shocked me 499 00:32:21,662 --> 00:32:25,302 Speaker 3: about bal anymore. There were things that came out people 500 00:32:25,382 --> 00:32:30,342 Speaker 3: from her past, her childhood, things like she had gone 501 00:32:30,342 --> 00:32:34,222 Speaker 3: to acting school and things like that, which I mean 502 00:32:34,302 --> 00:32:36,262 Speaker 3: kind of made sense to me. I don't know if 503 00:32:36,262 --> 00:32:40,542 Speaker 3: that's true or not. Yeah, I mean it was it. Yeah, 504 00:32:40,542 --> 00:32:42,622 Speaker 3: I mean, it didn't surprise me that it came out 505 00:32:42,662 --> 00:32:45,182 Speaker 3: that she had been doing this for a long time. 506 00:32:45,302 --> 00:32:50,662 Speaker 3: She had been in this skating forum, in this skating 507 00:32:50,702 --> 00:32:54,342 Speaker 3: community where she was telling all these people that she'd 508 00:32:54,742 --> 00:32:58,822 Speaker 3: had heart surgeries and she died on the operating table 509 00:32:59,022 --> 00:33:01,742 Speaker 3: and had been brought back to life and had all 510 00:33:01,742 --> 00:33:05,542 Speaker 3: these life threatening diseases, and as a result of that, 511 00:33:06,222 --> 00:33:10,342 Speaker 3: people in that community were sending her flowers and give 512 00:33:10,502 --> 00:33:13,862 Speaker 3: her lots of attention. So, I mean, it was interesting 513 00:33:13,902 --> 00:33:17,382 Speaker 3: to see kind of some of the origin of where 514 00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:20,062 Speaker 3: this all began for her and why, and that this 515 00:33:20,142 --> 00:33:21,422 Speaker 3: was obviously a pattern. 516 00:33:22,222 --> 00:33:25,022 Speaker 2: Did you have any contact with her during that time 517 00:33:25,382 --> 00:33:26,502 Speaker 2: as it was all unraveling. 518 00:33:27,982 --> 00:33:30,822 Speaker 3: The day the first story broke, I did send her 519 00:33:30,822 --> 00:33:35,062 Speaker 3: a text message that that's the final communication I've had 520 00:33:35,062 --> 00:33:38,662 Speaker 3: with her, and I haven't heard from her since then. 521 00:33:39,182 --> 00:33:41,142 Speaker 2: What did you say in the text message? 522 00:33:42,062 --> 00:33:46,942 Speaker 3: I said that so Belle always had this saying that 523 00:33:46,982 --> 00:33:50,782 Speaker 3: she would say, and for example, she posted it on 524 00:33:50,822 --> 00:33:54,502 Speaker 3: this stage four cancer diagnosis on her Instagram when she 525 00:33:54,502 --> 00:33:57,902 Speaker 3: announced that, and she should always say, you know, I've 526 00:33:57,902 --> 00:34:01,822 Speaker 3: now got stage four cancer, but don't worry, I've got this, 527 00:34:02,622 --> 00:34:07,302 Speaker 3: or I'm fundraising all this money to help this boy, 528 00:34:07,662 --> 00:34:12,342 Speaker 3: you know, get life saving surgery. I've got this, and 529 00:34:12,382 --> 00:34:15,622 Speaker 3: so yeah, I sent her a text message that day 530 00:34:15,782 --> 00:34:18,422 Speaker 3: as soon as the first article broke, and I said, 531 00:34:18,502 --> 00:34:21,382 Speaker 3: you should check the news, but you've got this right. 532 00:34:21,742 --> 00:34:24,422 Speaker 2: It was a bit of a job, a fair enough job. 533 00:34:25,622 --> 00:34:26,462 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 534 00:34:26,582 --> 00:34:29,902 Speaker 3: I mean I've done a lot of soul searching in 535 00:34:29,942 --> 00:34:34,342 Speaker 3: the last ten years and have tried to forgive Bao, 536 00:34:34,502 --> 00:34:38,142 Speaker 3: which I can't and I'm not sure I ever can. 537 00:34:38,462 --> 00:34:42,822 Speaker 3: But at that point, you know, I was really relieved 538 00:34:42,902 --> 00:34:46,022 Speaker 3: that she couldn't keep spreading the lies that she was 539 00:34:46,062 --> 00:34:49,902 Speaker 3: and I was doing. And I was so frustrated and 540 00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:53,222 Speaker 3: really angry that it took so long for the truth 541 00:34:53,262 --> 00:34:56,222 Speaker 3: to come out, and that she was, you know, so 542 00:34:56,382 --> 00:35:01,822 Speaker 3: combative to come out and tell the truth herself. So yeah, 543 00:35:01,862 --> 00:35:04,382 Speaker 3: that's why I sent the text message. I was kind 544 00:35:04,422 --> 00:35:08,102 Speaker 3: of kind of just at my wits end with it all. 545 00:35:08,942 --> 00:35:13,342 Speaker 2: Well at all. Obviously really unraveled quickly once you know, 546 00:35:13,862 --> 00:35:17,262 Speaker 2: the charity stuff had been exposed, the cancer was fake. 547 00:35:18,422 --> 00:35:21,622 Speaker 2: There's this sixty minutes interview that's really famous. She's in 548 00:35:21,622 --> 00:35:26,262 Speaker 2: a pink turtleneck and she's kind of been forced to, 549 00:35:27,582 --> 00:35:29,782 Speaker 2: I guess, kind of admit, but she doesn't really. She 550 00:35:29,862 --> 00:35:33,102 Speaker 2: kind of does this evasive kind of around the questions, 551 00:35:33,142 --> 00:35:35,382 Speaker 2: even though all the truth is already out there by then. 552 00:35:35,902 --> 00:35:39,422 Speaker 2: You had three heart operations, you suffered two cardiac arrests, 553 00:35:39,502 --> 00:35:42,582 Speaker 2: you died twice on the operating table, you had a stroke, 554 00:35:43,302 --> 00:35:46,102 Speaker 2: and you were diagnosed with inoprople brain shimmer and given 555 00:35:46,102 --> 00:35:50,262 Speaker 2: four months to live correct and I just happened. I 556 00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:52,702 Speaker 2: still have the heart condition and I was supposed to 557 00:35:52,782 --> 00:35:55,502 Speaker 2: have surgery for that. You were supposed to have surgery 558 00:35:55,662 --> 00:35:59,142 Speaker 2: and I didn't. How did you feel watching that interview? 559 00:35:59,502 --> 00:36:02,622 Speaker 3: That interview was really difficult to watch, but it was 560 00:36:02,742 --> 00:36:06,062 Speaker 3: validating in a way for the world to finally see 561 00:36:06,142 --> 00:36:09,262 Speaker 3: what I was up against in terms of trying to 562 00:36:09,302 --> 00:36:11,902 Speaker 3: get the truth from trying to get a straight answer 563 00:36:11,902 --> 00:36:15,142 Speaker 3: from her, which obviously in that interview Tara Brown could 564 00:36:15,222 --> 00:36:20,622 Speaker 3: not get one straight answer from her. And yeah, it 565 00:36:21,782 --> 00:36:24,982 Speaker 3: was kind of validating in a way. But at the 566 00:36:25,022 --> 00:36:29,382 Speaker 3: same time, it was really sad to see that her 567 00:36:29,462 --> 00:36:34,102 Speaker 3: community and the people she took advantage of were getting 568 00:36:34,142 --> 00:36:40,822 Speaker 3: no accountability, no apology, no real genuine apology, and no closure. 569 00:36:42,542 --> 00:36:46,342 Speaker 3: So that was the hardest part about watching it. 570 00:36:47,262 --> 00:36:52,662 Speaker 2: Do you have any idea where this kind of compulsive 571 00:36:52,742 --> 00:36:55,622 Speaker 2: lying and scamming comes from? In Bell. Do you think 572 00:36:55,662 --> 00:37:00,302 Speaker 2: it's malice trauma? Like, do you have a theory? 573 00:37:01,382 --> 00:37:05,662 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously Belle is a very deeply troubled person, 574 00:37:06,102 --> 00:37:09,942 Speaker 3: and there seems to be, you know, maybe a number 575 00:37:09,942 --> 00:37:15,022 Speaker 3: of reasons for that. She looked she did have, I 576 00:37:15,062 --> 00:37:19,062 Speaker 3: think a difficult childhood, but you know, a lot of 577 00:37:19,062 --> 00:37:23,222 Speaker 3: people experience difficult childhoods, trauma in their childhoods, and they 578 00:37:23,262 --> 00:37:26,982 Speaker 3: don't go on to you know, become a con artist 579 00:37:27,102 --> 00:37:30,542 Speaker 3: and take advantage of society's most vulnerable people. 580 00:37:31,502 --> 00:37:32,742 Speaker 1: So I do. 581 00:37:32,662 --> 00:37:35,982 Speaker 3: Sometimes think that that's kind of maybe an easy way 582 00:37:36,022 --> 00:37:38,382 Speaker 3: to explain maybe why. 583 00:37:38,262 --> 00:37:39,422 Speaker 1: She did what she did. 584 00:37:39,462 --> 00:37:43,662 Speaker 3: I think it's it's important to look at and she 585 00:37:44,102 --> 00:37:46,822 Speaker 3: had been doing this for quite a long time as well. 586 00:37:46,902 --> 00:37:48,342 Speaker 1: She had her. 587 00:37:48,462 --> 00:37:51,502 Speaker 3: Other people, other people had kind of caught her out 588 00:37:51,502 --> 00:37:55,542 Speaker 3: on other lies, and so she had already experienced the 589 00:37:55,582 --> 00:37:59,422 Speaker 3: impact that that causes on people, and obviously has not 590 00:38:00,342 --> 00:38:04,262 Speaker 3: really experienced much remorse maybe from that. I'm not going 591 00:38:04,302 --> 00:38:09,782 Speaker 3: to comment on her state of mind or her mental health, 592 00:38:10,102 --> 00:38:14,742 Speaker 3: but from what I witnessed and experienced with Ball, what 593 00:38:14,862 --> 00:38:17,742 Speaker 3: I saw was that she was using it basically as 594 00:38:17,782 --> 00:38:22,262 Speaker 3: a business strategy to make money and to be in 595 00:38:22,302 --> 00:38:26,622 Speaker 3: the limelight, to be adored, to, you know, to build 596 00:38:26,622 --> 00:38:31,222 Speaker 3: a business, and to change her life. She was, you know, 597 00:38:31,422 --> 00:38:34,302 Speaker 3: just I guess, quite an ordinary person. And when she 598 00:38:34,422 --> 00:38:38,302 Speaker 3: started bringing in this money, her lifestyle changed a lot. 599 00:38:38,822 --> 00:38:42,822 Speaker 3: She transitioned to more of kind of a lavish lifestyle. 600 00:38:42,902 --> 00:38:47,182 Speaker 3: She started renting a multimillion dollar beach house, renting a BMW, 601 00:38:47,422 --> 00:38:53,662 Speaker 3: flying first class on holidays overseas, buying designer things. So, 602 00:38:55,542 --> 00:38:59,862 Speaker 3: in my opinion, that's what I witnessed and experienced, is 603 00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:04,022 Speaker 3: that she saw that her life was benefiting her financially 604 00:39:05,182 --> 00:39:06,102 Speaker 3: and she ran with that. 605 00:39:12,062 --> 00:39:15,582 Speaker 2: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bath. 606 00:39:16,222 --> 00:39:19,302 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with the woman who exposed Belle Gibson's lies, 607 00:39:19,622 --> 00:39:23,582 Speaker 2: Chanelle mccauliffe. Up next, we hear more about the court 608 00:39:23,622 --> 00:39:27,262 Speaker 2: proceedings and where Bell Gibson is now nearly ten years on. 609 00:39:31,582 --> 00:39:34,302 Speaker 2: How do you feel about the court proceedings that happened 610 00:39:34,422 --> 00:39:38,742 Speaker 2: after everything came out because she went to court, she 611 00:39:38,902 --> 00:39:42,902 Speaker 2: was fined four hundred and ten thousand dollars. There's no 612 00:39:43,022 --> 00:39:46,222 Speaker 2: jail time or anything like that. Do you think that 613 00:39:46,262 --> 00:39:47,302 Speaker 2: was a fitting punishment? 614 00:39:48,382 --> 00:39:51,582 Speaker 3: It was good to see that there was some justice brought, 615 00:39:51,822 --> 00:39:56,462 Speaker 3: but it has come out recently that it's maybe not 616 00:39:56,902 --> 00:40:00,782 Speaker 3: possible for the court to enforce that penalty, and she 617 00:40:00,822 --> 00:40:04,782 Speaker 3: hasn't paid any of that penalty. And actually one hundred 618 00:40:04,782 --> 00:40:07,582 Speaker 3: and fifty thousand dollars of that penalty was to go 619 00:40:08,342 --> 00:40:11,142 Speaker 3: to the family of the little boy that had brain 620 00:40:11,262 --> 00:40:16,662 Speaker 3: cancer that she took advantage of as compensation for their suffering. 621 00:40:17,462 --> 00:40:23,742 Speaker 3: So it's really it's really upsetting that potentially that family 622 00:40:24,302 --> 00:40:28,102 Speaker 3: won't see that money. And you know, it's been quite 623 00:40:28,142 --> 00:40:32,502 Speaker 3: a long time. There's been many years since she was 624 00:40:32,582 --> 00:40:37,102 Speaker 3: fined and bell I know that Belle has earned some 625 00:40:37,182 --> 00:40:40,182 Speaker 3: type of income over the last few years, and Belle 626 00:40:40,222 --> 00:40:44,382 Speaker 3: could take it upon herself to start contributing to that fine, 627 00:40:45,102 --> 00:40:49,862 Speaker 3: to start making amends, to take accountability and make things right. 628 00:40:49,982 --> 00:40:54,862 Speaker 3: So that's disappointing that she's not coming to the table 629 00:40:55,062 --> 00:40:55,662 Speaker 3: and doing that. 630 00:40:56,302 --> 00:40:56,902 Speaker 1: Overall, the. 631 00:40:58,622 --> 00:41:03,582 Speaker 3: Justice system, I guess, is quite broken in that sense 632 00:41:03,662 --> 00:41:08,102 Speaker 3: that there hasn't really been real justice. 633 00:41:09,462 --> 00:41:13,942 Speaker 2: She has managed to lay pretty low since everything happened. 634 00:41:14,902 --> 00:41:17,302 Speaker 2: We do know there was a story about five years 635 00:41:17,302 --> 00:41:19,702 Speaker 2: ago that came out that she was trying to integrate 636 00:41:19,742 --> 00:41:24,182 Speaker 2: herself into the Ethiopian community in Melbourne and trying to 637 00:41:24,222 --> 00:41:26,822 Speaker 2: raise funds for them, almost kind of going down the 638 00:41:26,862 --> 00:41:32,702 Speaker 2: same kind of route of fundraising, and they found out 639 00:41:32,822 --> 00:41:35,542 Speaker 2: cut her out. It all kind of ended. But what 640 00:41:35,662 --> 00:41:37,742 Speaker 2: did you make of that? Of her kind of trying 641 00:41:37,742 --> 00:41:39,382 Speaker 2: to reinvent herself in that way. 642 00:41:40,142 --> 00:41:41,182 Speaker 1: I knew she would. 643 00:41:41,342 --> 00:41:46,022 Speaker 3: Again, nothing that Bell does anymore is shocking or surprising 644 00:41:46,822 --> 00:41:50,622 Speaker 3: to me. This has been a pattern she's been repeating 645 00:41:50,862 --> 00:41:56,382 Speaker 3: basically her whole life, and I'm yeah, it was really 646 00:41:56,382 --> 00:42:01,102 Speaker 3: sad to see, especially for that community, that she was infiltrating. 647 00:42:01,942 --> 00:42:06,542 Speaker 3: And I think there's also been this narrative that bel 648 00:42:06,862 --> 00:42:09,782 Speaker 3: really wants to kind of be accepted by a community 649 00:42:09,862 --> 00:42:12,462 Speaker 3: she wants to fit in. But like she could go 650 00:42:12,542 --> 00:42:18,782 Speaker 3: join a book club, you know, like there are spaces, 651 00:42:19,302 --> 00:42:23,062 Speaker 3: you know, she could go join a sporting team. There 652 00:42:23,102 --> 00:42:26,342 Speaker 3: are spaces that you can go to to be a 653 00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:30,902 Speaker 3: part of a community and feel accepted and feel like 654 00:42:30,942 --> 00:42:34,902 Speaker 3: you're part of something without having to take advantage of people. 655 00:42:35,902 --> 00:42:38,782 Speaker 2: Do you know much about what she's doing nowadays? 656 00:42:39,262 --> 00:42:40,582 Speaker 1: I don't know what she's up to. 657 00:42:41,142 --> 00:42:46,862 Speaker 3: Sometimes I hear little roomors, but I don't really pay 658 00:42:46,942 --> 00:42:48,502 Speaker 3: much attention to it. 659 00:42:48,742 --> 00:42:52,542 Speaker 1: But I'm sure she's looking at what her next hustle is. 660 00:42:54,062 --> 00:42:57,982 Speaker 2: You were the original whistleblower in this story, and the 661 00:42:58,022 --> 00:43:01,862 Speaker 2: reality is if you have tried to do what you 662 00:43:01,902 --> 00:43:06,342 Speaker 2: did in any other kind of environment, corporate, government, political, 663 00:43:07,542 --> 00:43:12,262 Speaker 2: you could have been prosecuted. That's something that you thought 664 00:43:12,262 --> 00:43:13,182 Speaker 2: about at the time. 665 00:43:13,982 --> 00:43:18,502 Speaker 3: There wasn't any kind of scenario where I wasn't going 666 00:43:18,582 --> 00:43:22,582 Speaker 3: to follow through with what I did if and this 667 00:43:23,502 --> 00:43:26,942 Speaker 3: actually hasn't been the first time I've been a whistleblower. 668 00:43:27,662 --> 00:43:31,222 Speaker 3: If I see something that's wrong, I can't turn a 669 00:43:31,222 --> 00:43:36,022 Speaker 3: blind eye to it. It's very discouraging for a lot 670 00:43:36,022 --> 00:43:38,142 Speaker 3: of I know a lot of people have struggled to 671 00:43:38,382 --> 00:43:41,862 Speaker 3: come forward and tell the truth on different things because 672 00:43:42,662 --> 00:43:47,902 Speaker 3: people have been reprimanded and prosecuted for speaking up and 673 00:43:47,942 --> 00:43:51,542 Speaker 3: telling the truth. It is a very challenging thing to do, 674 00:43:51,622 --> 00:43:53,742 Speaker 3: and it it can be a scary thing to do, 675 00:43:53,942 --> 00:43:59,702 Speaker 3: especially you know, when there's other interests at play, if 676 00:43:59,742 --> 00:44:06,742 Speaker 3: companies are profiting. So, yeah, whistleblowers can easily be silenced 677 00:44:07,022 --> 00:44:10,622 Speaker 3: and be scared away from trying to come forward and 678 00:44:10,942 --> 00:44:15,102 Speaker 3: tell the truth. Yeah, it just wasn't in my nature 679 00:44:15,742 --> 00:44:19,342 Speaker 3: to not do that, to not align with my values, 680 00:44:19,382 --> 00:44:23,662 Speaker 3: to just stand by and let something bad happen. 681 00:44:24,342 --> 00:44:28,542 Speaker 2: Are there any protections in place for whistle blowers in Australia? 682 00:44:28,582 --> 00:44:31,062 Speaker 2: I know it's an area that you feel quite passionately about. 683 00:44:32,462 --> 00:44:36,222 Speaker 3: Yeah, there have been legislation come into effect in the 684 00:44:36,262 --> 00:44:40,222 Speaker 3: last few years to protect whistle blowers, especially in the workplace, 685 00:44:40,302 --> 00:44:46,662 Speaker 3: from retaliation. But it's only legislation and regulation and law 686 00:44:48,342 --> 00:44:52,142 Speaker 3: only can go so far when people are or the 687 00:44:52,222 --> 00:44:56,702 Speaker 3: law or governments or what places are willing to enforce 688 00:44:56,742 --> 00:45:00,102 Speaker 3: it and make sure there's people really are protected. 689 00:45:00,942 --> 00:45:04,262 Speaker 2: For me, it feels like whistle blowing should be something 690 00:45:04,302 --> 00:45:09,262 Speaker 2: that we support because if there's wrongdoing going on in 691 00:45:09,382 --> 00:45:14,142 Speaker 2: certain institutions, surely we should know about it. The fact 692 00:45:14,142 --> 00:45:16,982 Speaker 2: that it's something that people might be scared about doing 693 00:45:16,982 --> 00:45:23,422 Speaker 2: because they could potentially face criminal charges is insane. 694 00:45:23,902 --> 00:45:26,782 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I think. I think a lot more 695 00:45:26,782 --> 00:45:27,702 Speaker 1: work can be done in. 696 00:45:27,662 --> 00:45:31,662 Speaker 3: This space to protect people coming forward and telling the truth. 697 00:45:31,702 --> 00:45:34,102 Speaker 3: And it is a very Yeah, it is a very 698 00:45:34,102 --> 00:45:37,942 Speaker 3: scary thing to take on. Like I said earlier, there 699 00:45:38,742 --> 00:45:43,102 Speaker 3: was one percent of me that was still questioning myself, God, 700 00:45:43,502 --> 00:45:45,382 Speaker 3: what if she doesn't have cancer and I've got this 701 00:45:45,422 --> 00:45:45,782 Speaker 3: all wrong? 702 00:45:45,942 --> 00:45:47,382 Speaker 1: And that's part of it. 703 00:45:47,702 --> 00:45:51,382 Speaker 3: Right, Like that you see in the media and you 704 00:45:51,462 --> 00:45:55,862 Speaker 3: see in cases that people haven't been protected and then 705 00:45:55,942 --> 00:45:59,942 Speaker 3: so that makes you question yourself in many ways. It 706 00:45:59,982 --> 00:46:02,982 Speaker 3: makes you question do I really know the truth or 707 00:46:03,742 --> 00:46:05,982 Speaker 3: am I going to be safe to come forward? 708 00:46:07,822 --> 00:46:11,222 Speaker 2: What are you doing with your life now? Being involved 709 00:46:11,382 --> 00:46:16,382 Speaker 2: in this, in whistle blowing, in uncovering kind of the 710 00:46:16,502 --> 00:46:20,502 Speaker 2: scam that was Bell Gibson, Has that changed your life 711 00:46:20,542 --> 00:46:23,342 Speaker 2: and your kind of goals in life in terms of 712 00:46:23,342 --> 00:46:24,502 Speaker 2: what you want to give back? 713 00:46:25,302 --> 00:46:28,902 Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely led me down a path that I 714 00:46:29,102 --> 00:46:32,382 Speaker 3: may not have gone down if I hadn't gone through 715 00:46:32,382 --> 00:46:36,062 Speaker 3: what I did with Belle. I ended up moving and 716 00:46:36,142 --> 00:46:41,582 Speaker 3: working in the outback with remote Indigenous communities, working on 717 00:46:41,702 --> 00:46:46,942 Speaker 3: policy and as a financial counselor preventing economic abuse against 718 00:46:47,342 --> 00:46:53,742 Speaker 3: Indigenous people in the outback because unfortunately, those communities are 719 00:46:53,782 --> 00:46:58,062 Speaker 3: actually targeted a lot by scams. So while I was 720 00:46:58,262 --> 00:47:02,502 Speaker 3: out there doing that work, I was doing financial literacy education, 721 00:47:03,462 --> 00:47:09,942 Speaker 3: working with regulators to tighten regulation and laws around predatory 722 00:47:10,582 --> 00:47:14,982 Speaker 3: payday lenders that we're targeting Indigenous people. Since then, I've 723 00:47:15,022 --> 00:47:19,742 Speaker 3: gone on to work for basically one of own Australia's 724 00:47:19,782 --> 00:47:25,462 Speaker 3: only social impact finance fund that provides capital to indigenous 725 00:47:25,462 --> 00:47:28,422 Speaker 3: people wanting to start a business or grow their business, 726 00:47:28,462 --> 00:47:33,462 Speaker 3: because they have a lot of challenges accessing capital, especially 727 00:47:33,502 --> 00:47:39,102 Speaker 3: from mainstream banks. They can be yes, discouraged from accessing 728 00:47:39,142 --> 00:47:44,222 Speaker 3: capital from those avenues. So yeah, it's it's something that's 729 00:47:44,302 --> 00:47:47,342 Speaker 3: very important to me to do, to do work that's 730 00:47:47,422 --> 00:47:51,222 Speaker 3: that's very meaningful and impactful and that can help people, 731 00:47:51,382 --> 00:47:56,182 Speaker 3: and I especially, Yeah, I especially love to do work 732 00:47:56,222 --> 00:48:00,502 Speaker 3: where I can give people a voice that aren't able 733 00:48:00,502 --> 00:48:05,462 Speaker 3: to necessarily use their own voice, and especially prevent or 734 00:48:05,502 --> 00:48:10,742 Speaker 3: stop people being taken advantage of, because that's just it's think, 735 00:48:10,782 --> 00:48:13,622 Speaker 3: I really really can't stand. 736 00:48:14,142 --> 00:48:16,702 Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of buzz right now everyone's 737 00:48:16,742 --> 00:48:21,062 Speaker 2: talking about Bell, but it was nearly a decade ago 738 00:48:21,702 --> 00:48:26,062 Speaker 2: that all this happened. Do you think about it often anymore? 739 00:48:27,422 --> 00:48:32,382 Speaker 3: No, I haven't. Over the years, I don't really think 740 00:48:32,422 --> 00:48:36,022 Speaker 3: about it too much. I've already given so much energy 741 00:48:36,262 --> 00:48:41,302 Speaker 3: and mental capacity to all of this. I did film 742 00:48:41,382 --> 00:48:45,502 Speaker 3: for a documentary that's coming out in Netflix in a 743 00:48:45,542 --> 00:48:47,462 Speaker 3: few weeks, so I was. 744 00:48:47,382 --> 00:48:48,222 Speaker 1: Involved with that. 745 00:48:49,022 --> 00:48:51,942 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, I have reflected on it at times, 746 00:48:52,142 --> 00:48:57,702 Speaker 3: I especially right now with how big the story has gotten. Again, well, 747 00:48:57,822 --> 00:49:01,982 Speaker 3: it's actually gotten even bigger than ever before. And as 748 00:49:02,142 --> 00:49:06,102 Speaker 3: much as I can't forgive Belle, I can't help but 749 00:49:06,382 --> 00:49:12,542 Speaker 3: think that this would maybe be quite difficult for her, 750 00:49:12,662 --> 00:49:18,702 Speaker 3: And given you know she is a troubled person, I 751 00:49:18,742 --> 00:49:23,302 Speaker 3: do wonder about her mental health at this time and 752 00:49:23,622 --> 00:49:28,862 Speaker 3: the whole time, actually, and I do hope that she 753 00:49:29,022 --> 00:49:30,502 Speaker 3: is okay at the end of the day. 754 00:49:30,742 --> 00:49:33,742 Speaker 2: So you do still have empathy for her in amongst 755 00:49:33,782 --> 00:49:34,862 Speaker 2: all of the younger. 756 00:49:35,262 --> 00:49:39,982 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, like Belle is still human at the 757 00:49:40,062 --> 00:49:46,262 Speaker 3: end of the day, a very complex, complicated, troubled human, 758 00:49:46,742 --> 00:49:51,462 Speaker 3: and I actually just hope that she can eventually learn 759 00:49:51,502 --> 00:49:56,342 Speaker 3: from all this and evolve from it and make amends. 760 00:49:56,982 --> 00:49:59,622 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean that is what I hope for. 761 00:50:00,462 --> 00:50:02,062 Speaker 2: Do you think she can though, Do you think she 762 00:50:02,062 --> 00:50:03,942 Speaker 2: can actually redeem herself? 763 00:50:04,902 --> 00:50:07,782 Speaker 3: I think it will be difficult in the public eye. 764 00:50:08,062 --> 00:50:10,702 Speaker 3: I think the public will probably have a different cool 765 00:50:10,742 --> 00:50:16,422 Speaker 3: time for giving her, and that's understandable. But I hope 766 00:50:16,462 --> 00:50:20,182 Speaker 3: she can redeem herself, just for herself, even in her 767 00:50:20,222 --> 00:50:23,582 Speaker 3: personal life. I hope she can evolve and learn from 768 00:50:23,622 --> 00:50:28,862 Speaker 3: this and not do something like this again in any capacity. 769 00:50:29,022 --> 00:50:35,102 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's very wishful thinking to think that there 770 00:50:35,142 --> 00:50:36,262 Speaker 3: could be some redemption. 771 00:50:41,462 --> 00:50:44,662 Speaker 2: Thanks to Chanelle for telling us her story. True Crime 772 00:50:44,662 --> 00:50:48,022 Speaker 2: Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by 773 00:50:48,062 --> 00:50:51,582 Speaker 2: me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by 774 00:50:51,662 --> 00:50:54,582 Speaker 2: Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back 775 00:50:54,662 --> 00:50:58,782 Speaker 2: next week with a very interesting true crime conversation with 776 00:50:58,902 --> 00:51:01,142 Speaker 2: the anonymous host of case File.