Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: It's a bit like sex as well, like sometimes you
Speaker 1: just don't feel like it, like the thought of it.
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't know, I'd hate that. Oh no,
Speaker 1: i'd hate that, you think to yourself. But then you
Speaker 1: have a great time.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out loud. It's
Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty
Speaker 2: fourth of February. I'm Holly way.
Speaker 1: Right, and I am back bitch is I'm meya f.
Speaker 3: And I'm Jessees.
Speaker 2: They're being cool if you're not watching Severance. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a Severance reference.
Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, my friends exactly because we're at work, so
Speaker 3: we are yes, yef and your Holly is your hollyw W.
Speaker 3: And we've decided that actually talking about how much we
Speaker 3: love Severance is just trying to tell people how smummy this.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a flex and if you do love Severance,
Speaker 2: we may be recording a subscript episode about it very soon.
Speaker 2: But on today's show, the person we're not talking about
Speaker 2: in the story of the parenting influencer who went to jail. Also,
Speaker 2: everyone's lonely, but no one wants to make plans. Why
Speaker 2: we're in the year of the Flake, unless you're mere Friedman,
Speaker 2: who has mastered the pre flake, and I have some
Speaker 2: feedback for you about that. Also why we're all falling
Speaker 2: over ourselves to book into the White Lotus, even though
Speaker 2: the stuff might try and kill us there, But first
Speaker 2: mea Friedman.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, it's rough out there in
Speaker 1: the news cycle, which is probably why a post about
Speaker 1: whimsy went viral over the weekend. Whimsy is not a
Speaker 1: word that you hear very often, and I couldn't refine
Speaker 1: it myself, so I looked up the definition. It's like
Speaker 1: a playful, fanciful quality, full of odd or unpredictable ideas
Speaker 1: that brings lighthearted humor and makes ordinary things feel a
Speaker 1: bit magical and joyful. So someone asked women in a
Speaker 1: video on TikTok what their whimsical little habits are, and
Speaker 1: the internet responded in a way that felt a little
Speaker 1: bit like a magical hug. Some of the answers included
Speaker 1: when my cat clearly wants something and meows at me,
Speaker 1: I tell her to use your words.
Speaker 3: I often say that's shell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very cute.
Speaker 1: For my own amusement, I say officers and nod. When
Speaker 1: I see pigeons, I say, may I take your coat
Speaker 1: while peeling garlic. I didn't understand that because I don't
Speaker 1: peel garlic very often.
Speaker 2: The garlic's wearing little coats. Okay, paper coats.
Speaker 1: I call my to do list, my tadar list, and
Speaker 1: do jazz hands as I tick things off. That's cute.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 1: I kiss my cat on both cheeks, then she kisses
Speaker 1: me on both cheeks. Then I explained she's European to
Speaker 1: no one. So can you think of many examples of whimsy?
Speaker 2: I think everybody does it with their pets, right, Pets
Speaker 2: bring out the wims in you. We all have a
Speaker 2: voice for a dog. I assume I do for a
Speaker 2: very specific voice. But you know what, I was trying
Speaker 2: to do the voice before in the toilet, like I
Speaker 2: was warming up, and I was like, let's do the voice.
Speaker 2: I cannot do it unless she's there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, you can't conjure it.
Speaker 2: Cute little face.
Speaker 3: Yes, I know what you mean. Clara and I have
Speaker 3: exclusively spoken through the girls, babies and I've realized, you know,
Speaker 3: when you look at your your whimsical thing and you go,
Speaker 3: might actually not be that pc because Matilda speaks with
Speaker 3: an accent. I'm not going to say what accent, but
Speaker 3: she actually doesn't speak English English second it's her second language,
Speaker 3: because she doesn't yet, no, she doesn't. She babbles and
Speaker 3: we go, well, yes, that is her language. And so
Speaker 3: we often text from the girls to one another. Clara
Speaker 3: and I haven't had a conversation in nearly two years.
Speaker 3: And the other thing, I imagine.
Speaker 1: The twins life is full of whimsy. Yes, yeah, it
Speaker 1: is sort of magical. Every day little silly things you do.
Speaker 3: And I realized that Lucra and I and you know
Speaker 3: when you tell it out loud and you just sound
Speaker 3: like the lamest person in the world. Luca and I
Speaker 3: have one where every night he gets into bed and
Speaker 3: he says, have you hidden my eye mask? Because he
Speaker 3: wears an eye mask? And what a ridiculous thing. Why
Speaker 3: would I hide his eye mask? And we play this
Speaker 3: whole thing where like I didn't hide your eye mask
Speaker 3: and then you find it anyway.
Speaker 1: That sounds hilarious, hilarious, No, no, no, But.
Speaker 2: Because the people's whimsies are hard. But then I stepped up.
Speaker 1: It gets funnier.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because then I started hiding it and it became
Speaker 3: a little game, and I hide it every night and
Speaker 3: then he can't find it, and then we have this
Speaker 3: little playful thing. And it's like people think we're boring
Speaker 3: because we have a baby, but here we are looking.
Speaker 2: For an ear mask. Oh that's quite good, isn't it. Fun?
Speaker 2: Vegetables a lot, I asked, you know what I'm saying
Speaker 2: to them. You're having a hard day. You are on
Speaker 2: your darling. It's gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: I had a thing where I accidentally bought too many
Speaker 1: packs of tiny snack sized sandwich bags, but like the
Speaker 1: snack size, you know, the resealable ones. And my children
Speaker 1: who don't live at home, always come home and like rifle,
Speaker 1: they go shopping in the pantry and in the fridge
Speaker 1: and they're always looking for things, and I'm always trying
Speaker 1: to offload these tiny, little stupid sandwich bags that I've
Speaker 1: got many packets off and then I want them. So
Speaker 1: what I do is that I always hide them like
Speaker 1: in their glove box. All that's fun, handbag, that's quite fun.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I was thinking that was whimsy.
Speaker 1: Is my jeans today, which none of you have noticed.
Speaker 2: I think you get all your wimsy out of your clothes.
Speaker 1: Actually pretend track suit pants that look like jeanspitch.
Speaker 3: Yes turning up, which can't be good for audio.
Speaker 2: We all document this on the feed.
Speaker 1: Is that whimsy putting on jeans is like a thing
Speaker 1: that's not very whimsical, But I've made them whimsical because
Speaker 1: they're actually secretly tracksuit pack.
Speaker 3: The other whimsical thing we've been doing is I feel
Speaker 3: like every time you know you've got Luna or I've
Speaker 3: got Luna, is we teach her a new phrase that
Speaker 3: she actually doesn't need. So she got home from the
Speaker 3: other day gay rights. Someone had taught the nanny had
Speaker 3: taught Luna gay rights, and we were all just having
Speaker 3: a laugh about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a bit silly, very silly. You know
Speaker 2: what's whimsy? The budgies. The budgies are yes you a producer.
Speaker 2: Ruth play the little prank on mea a while ago
Speaker 2: where we were sitting in her office having an important
Speaker 2: meeting about something serious, and then suddenly we noticed that
Speaker 2: they were a little pretend Bude and.
Speaker 1: I thought it was real. I could just see one
Speaker 1: and I was like, is that real? On?
Speaker 2: Like a pop plant hiding in one of MEA's coat hangers?
Speaker 2: And the in joke is that, Mia? What's the en
Speaker 2: joke about it?
Speaker 1: It's something about it. I look at a camera and
Speaker 1: talk to myself.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they're very whimsy.
Speaker 3: You might have heard about Ruby Frank, a woman who
Speaker 3: abused her children in front of millions of people, but
Speaker 3: what do we know about her husband? Let's start at
Speaker 3: the beginning. Do you guys know much about this story?
Speaker 1: I know nothing. It's an all or nothing story. I
Speaker 1: know she's a YouTuber and an influencer and was while
Speaker 1: she was you know, had this big channel, was secretly
Speaker 1: abusing her children, and now she's in jail. That's yeah.
Speaker 3: I had no context for when the story came out.
Speaker 3: I'd never heard of her. So basically, in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 3: Ruby Frank, she was a mother of six living in Utah,
Speaker 3: began a YouTube channel called eight Passengers so six Kids,
Speaker 3: her and her husband Kevin. At its peak, the channel
Speaker 3: had two point five million subscribers, and the content often
Speaker 3: in sight into their home life. Her parenting style was
Speaker 3: always very strict. For example, her two sons were play
Speaker 3: fighting in one video, and she told them if they
Speaker 3: kept doing it, they'd lose the privilege of eating dinner.
Speaker 3: One of her daughters was cutting things in the house
Speaker 3: and she threatened to cut off the head of her doll.
Speaker 3: But things started to become more and more extreme over
Speaker 3: the course of the channel.
Speaker 1: This at the time when those family YouTubers and they
Speaker 1: sort of documented their whole life. It's not so common anymore,
Speaker 1: I don't think, but it was huge in the mid.
Speaker 3: The kind of yeah, yeah, exactly in Utah because of
Speaker 3: the Mormon element, there are these big families.
Speaker 2: It feels like, not to want to make light of
Speaker 2: this story, but that Utah really overrepresents in the influencer space.
Speaker 2: It's like a lot of the traadwives from Utah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot of the big families are from Utah. It
Speaker 2: must have a high headcount of it does.
Speaker 3: And physically it's a very beautiful face.
Speaker 2: A set.
Speaker 3: Things then became more extreme. So her older son, Chad,
Speaker 3: speaking to the said that his mother had taken away
Speaker 3: his bed for seven months after he played a prank
Speaker 3: on his sibling, and since he'd been sleeping on a
Speaker 3: bean bag, and in the video, Ruby Frank was seen laughing.
Speaker 3: This then launched a petition flagging that there were signs
Speaker 3: of abuse and neglect where they called on Child Protective
Speaker 3: Services to investigate. That was from her followers. The channel
Speaker 3: shut down, and then Ruby Frank kind of went off.
Speaker 3: We didn't see so much of her kids anymore, but
Speaker 3: she launched a parenting advice support program alongside this woman
Speaker 3: named Jody Hildebrand. Then in August twenty twenty three, this
Speaker 3: story broke out again because one of Frank's children, reportedly malnourished,
Speaker 3: climbed out of Hildebrand's house and banged on the door
Speaker 3: of a neighbor asking for food and water.
Speaker 4: I just had a twelve year old boy so up
Speaker 4: here at my front door asking for help, and he's
Speaker 4: said he had just came from a neighbor's house. He's emaciated,
Speaker 4: he's got tape around his leg.
Speaker 3: Frank and this Hildebrand woman were arrested and four of
Speaker 3: Frank's children were taken into care. The eldest two were
Speaker 3: out of home by that point. Here's what we know
Speaker 3: about what Frank was doing to her children. She forced
Speaker 3: her twelve year old son to do hours of physical
Speaker 3: tasks off and outside. It resulted in serious sunburn that blistered.
Speaker 3: He was denied food and after attempting to run away,
Speaker 3: his hands and feet were regularly bound. Similar punishments were
Speaker 3: inflicted on her daughter. There are more horrific details that
Speaker 3: I'm not going to outline here, but Frank was ultimately
Speaker 3: charged with child abuse and will spend four to sixty
Speaker 3: years behind bars, which I think it will be around thirty.
Speaker 3: This has led to a lot of reflection and potential
Speaker 3: law reform. When we round dad, where is Kevin? I
Speaker 3: have often wondered this because he has evaded a lot
Speaker 3: of scrutiny. They were separated by that point, and he
Speaker 3: had not been living with Ruby Frank for about thirteen
Speaker 3: months before this happened, and it is understood that the
Speaker 3: abuse really stepped up in that time. He hadn't seen
Speaker 3: the children, and he hadn't seen the children, but a
Speaker 3: lot of the strict behaviors and also having the children
Speaker 3: on a YouTube channel.
Speaker 2: The YouTube channel involved him exactly right.
Speaker 3: But over the weekend Kevin Frank spoke about his regrets
Speaker 3: and he said that he is petitioning for a bill
Speaker 3: whereby a child claims a percentage of money made off
Speaker 3: their image, and also can demand as an adult that
Speaker 3: the content made of them be removed.
Speaker 1: You would assume that that was already the case, but
Speaker 1: I guess it's just not in law.
Speaker 2: No, it is in some countries. So this is part
Speaker 2: of the whole reckoning around. You know, this kind of
Speaker 2: influencing that involves children, and there are some countries where
Speaker 2: ten percent of the income has to be put aside
Speaker 2: in some kind of trust for a child, and they
Speaker 2: want to try and pass a similar law in some
Speaker 2: of the states in America, which is why this guy has.
Speaker 3: Come out has come out. But Holly, I wondered when
Speaker 3: I saw this a week conflating two issues here because
Speaker 3: one is the YouTube element. But is this actually a
Speaker 3: story about vologging or is this a story about something
Speaker 3: else entirely.
Speaker 2: I think this story gets misrepresented a lot because I'm
Speaker 2: probably typical of some out louders who aren't massively familiar
Speaker 2: with the Franks in that I've seen these headlines around
Speaker 2: a lot, and it's been very much cautionary tale about
Speaker 2: putting your children online, toxic side of influencing and parent influencers.
Speaker 2: But what we're talking about here some of the abuse
Speaker 2: that you outlined before, the stuff that Ruby Frank actually
Speaker 2: got arrested for and is serving a significant jail term for,
Speaker 2: as she absolutely should. That was not on the internet.
Speaker 2: That is child abuse of the highest order. And it's
Speaker 2: not like she was putting that upon YouTube. There is
Speaker 2: a world of difference between the kind of stuff that
Speaker 2: she was famous for, and I think we should be
Speaker 2: really clear about. One of the reasons why this, I
Speaker 2: think is so shocking in inverted commons to people is
Speaker 2: that Ruby Frank, certainly at the time of her fame,
Speaker 2: she doesn't look like an abusive parent in inverted commerce.
Speaker 2: Obviously I'm not saying that, but that's the world's perceptions.
Speaker 2: She's very well roomed, white lady with the nice bob
Speaker 2: and the beautiful home and all the beautiful children, and
Speaker 2: there's that aspirational element that people buy into. But she
Speaker 2: was known, as you said, Jesse, for being quite strict.
Speaker 2: But there is a world of difference between the kind
Speaker 2: of stuff she was putting up on YouTube, which was
Speaker 2: stuff like my daughter forgot her lunch today, the teacher
Speaker 2: called me, But I'm gonna let her go hungry to
Speaker 2: teach her a lesson let them. Yep, that's a let them.
Speaker 2: And also some people would say that's you know, that's
Speaker 2: good parenting, like resilience, content, etc. There is an ocean
Speaker 2: of difference between that and keeping your child restrained in
Speaker 2: a secret room in your house. And I think that
Speaker 2: in a way, the headlines and the beautiful blonde lady
Speaker 2: and the parent influencers finger wagging is like almost trying
Speaker 2: to convince people that that's what was happening and we
Speaker 2: were all born into it. But they're two different things.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Do you think this has much to do with YouTube
Speaker 3: and sharing images of your children online? Because it's almost
Speaker 3: like people are trying to suggest see the type of
Speaker 3: people that profit off their children. I wonder if there's an.
Speaker 1: Element about I wonder if you guys are feeling defensive
Speaker 1: because you've profited off your children in some of your content. No,
Speaker 1: I'm joking, but to me, I didn't read it like that.
Speaker 1: To me, I read it that it was more it's
Speaker 1: all lies, and we suspected that it was all lies.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think there's glee, which is it
Speaker 1: all looks so, whether it's ballerin a farm or any
Speaker 1: of the other influencers Narah Smith. It all looks so
Speaker 1: picture perfect, but underneath the surface there's terrible, dark things happening,
Speaker 1: and it's like there's a glee, which is we knew
Speaker 1: it couldn't be as good as it looked.
Speaker 3: I think it's also almost a true crime element of
Speaker 3: there were science, so it's the online detective.
Speaker 1: The idea that it was happening under everyone's none.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because there were the sort of little things which,
Speaker 3: as you say, taken out of context, don't look you
Speaker 3: kind of go, oh, that's a bit harsh, but it's
Speaker 3: not a crime. But I worry that it will embolden
Speaker 3: the commenters and embolden the kind of online community that
Speaker 3: we all know can be. I remember sharing an image
Speaker 3: of Luna when she was a few months old and
Speaker 3: a comment basically suggesting that it was my fault she
Speaker 3: was so little because I wasn't feeding her properly. And
Speaker 3: this is the thing about like people watching any of
Speaker 3: your parenting, is that they're going to have an opinion
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 1: But aren't we learning that from this generation of kids
Speaker 1: who were put on the internet by their parents, And
Speaker 1: I should say none of us knew what we were doing.
Speaker 1: It just so happened that my kids escaped that era.
Speaker 1: Had they been born a few years later, or some
Speaker 1: of them a few years earlier, I would have done
Speaker 1: the same thing. Because it's like, if you're someone who
Speaker 1: lives online and part of the content that you make
Speaker 1: and monetize is about your life, you can't just pretend
Speaker 1: you don't have children. So I get that, but I
Speaker 1: think that what we're seeing now is that those children
Speaker 1: are old enough to go, hey, you know that thing
Speaker 1: that wasn't good for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I reckon that we are unable to see
Speaker 3: as a spectrum. We have become so black and white
Speaker 3: about sharing an image of a child online that it's
Speaker 3: like you share an image and you're traumatizing them for life.
Speaker 3: There is a spectrum where it's like sharing a family photograph,
Speaker 3: child appears in video, making your children work full time
Speaker 3: for your content, and filming them at their worst moments
Speaker 3: when they're crying or tantruming or whatever, like, they are
Speaker 3: totally different things, and we seem to not understand that
Speaker 3: it's yeah, that it's.
Speaker 2: Not the same. Ruby Frank's daughter, who has written a
Speaker 2: memoir and who is also talking in this push to
Speaker 2: get this bill passed in Utah, which her dad is too,
Speaker 2: is very vocal about the fact that she feels very exploited,
Speaker 2: and she said, you know, she was her mum would
Speaker 2: film her bras shopping and put that online. She'd put
Speaker 2: all kinds of very sensitive teenage stuff up there. And
Speaker 2: I think, without questioning me or you're right, that there
Speaker 2: is a generation who've grown up and said hey, But
Speaker 2: as Jesse says, I don't think that's the same as
Speaker 2: somebody who just sometimes puts a bitture of them. Care no,
Speaker 2: but we are. I mean, you're right. But to your
Speaker 2: barber earlier on which is fair enough about you know,
Speaker 2: do you feel defensive? I think I probably do feel defensive.
Speaker 2: Not in any way do I feel like I want
Speaker 2: to defend a person like Ruby Frank who's abusing her
Speaker 2: children in the worst way possible. But I do want
Speaker 2: to be a little bit defensive about the idea that
Speaker 2: ever involving your children in online content is necessarily entirely negative.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's true. I think it feeds into
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why the wear of the dad's
Speaker 2: question is interesting, which is the people who are consuming
Speaker 2: very often a lot of parenting content on the internet,
Speaker 2: or women they're looking at other women doing it. And
Speaker 2: although it very often starts off with a I feel seen,
Speaker 2: thank god, my house is dirty like your houses. My
Speaker 2: kid won't eat vegetables like your kid won't eat vegetables,
Speaker 2: it also always morphs into a big stream of judgment,
Speaker 2: big stream of like, well, you know that child's top
Speaker 2: does look a bit dirty, and you're not feeding your
Speaker 2: child probably Jesse and whatever. I think that that's very
Speaker 2: toxic for the parent involved, and we know that if
Speaker 2: the child is exposed to that, that's terrible. But I
Speaker 2: don't think that everybody who's doing that on the internet
Speaker 2: isn't considering the outcome.
Speaker 1: No, and of course many of them are. You would
Speaker 1: hope that this is about apple kind of situation. But
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting also is part of this bill
Speaker 1: is that when the children become adults, they can request
Speaker 1: and all that content about them is taken down. And
Speaker 1: what I think that it speaks to is when we
Speaker 1: have children, we feel that their experiences are our experiences,
Speaker 1: and at what point do they become their own experiences?
Speaker 1: Like you exactly, you watch people talk about a child's
Speaker 1: medical condition or their behavior and it's all through the
Speaker 1: lens of how it affects that person as a mother,
Speaker 1: which I completely understand. But I think what we're becoming
Speaker 1: more aware now is that that person didn't necessarily consent
Speaker 1: to that. I don't mean, you know, when they're in
Speaker 1: a their photos on the internet, or they're in a
Speaker 1: little bit of sponsored content. I more mean that kind
Speaker 1: of vlogging turning your life into a reality show.
Speaker 3: It's just interesting to me how this conversation has almost
Speaker 3: totally excluded fathers like as participants in their children's lives.
Speaker 3: And I understand it to a degree because it is
Speaker 3: women who post a lot of this content and women
Speaker 3: follow women like that's totally the point. But I also
Speaker 3: think that we understand women to be in charge of
Speaker 3: parenting decisions, and so I wonder if this were reversed,
Speaker 3: it because of our children's will Exactly like, if a
Speaker 3: child is online, let's assume, unless it's Grimes and Elon Musk,
Speaker 3: let's assume that both parents have consented to that. But
Speaker 3: the judgment is always towards the mother, because it's your
Speaker 3: job to kicks.
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I know what you're saying. I
Speaker 1: think that's slightly disingenuous in that there is in most
Speaker 1: households and most families there's divide and conquers. So the
Speaker 1: Internet and social media and knowing about all of that
Speaker 1: is seen as moreover something that women generally know a
Speaker 1: lot more about. You know, men on social media tend
Speaker 1: to either not be on it or their lurkers men
Speaker 1: rarely post.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that that's a decision that you make and
Speaker 3: if you're going to the bottom line of the family
Speaker 3: like this man, Look, Kevin, there is no you know,
Speaker 3: there's evidence that he had absolutely nothing to do with
Speaker 3: this Kevin Frank in terms.
Speaker 2: Of the abuse of the abuse. Yeah, but he was
Speaker 2: he was very involved in the vlogging.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And he's come out and obviously said that
Speaker 3: he has regrets. But I just note that at no
Speaker 3: point did everyone kind of go He was also putting
Speaker 3: a camera in front of their face and also endorsing
Speaker 3: the parenting style that they were both practicing.
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of Yeah, and there are
Speaker 2: a lot of dad influences now too. They have a
Speaker 2: lot of female followers. I think this is the modern
Speaker 2: example of the stage parent, right, And there have always
Speaker 2: been extreme versions of stage parenting that have veered towards
Speaker 2: pushing your kid really hard exploitation and pay the bills
Speaker 2: for the family exploitation, working them over time. This is
Speaker 2: like the dark side of that.
Speaker 1: After the break, why everyone is feeling a bit aspirational,
Speaker 1: including Megan Michael.
Speaker 2: It might sound like I'm in his studio in Inner
Speaker 2: Sydney at the moment, but mentally I am replying on
Speaker 2: a taste for sun loungers Mui.
Speaker 3: I haven't started watching White Lotus yet, so is it
Speaker 3: very kind of pictureque?
Speaker 2: Well, you've seen the other two, right, Yeah? So the
Speaker 2: first White Lotus was a set in Hawaii at the
Speaker 2: Four Seasons of Maui. The second one was set at
Speaker 2: another Four Seasons in Sicily in Italy. This one is
Speaker 2: actually filmed at three different resorts in Thailand, one of
Speaker 2: which is the Four Seasons Samui and yes.
Speaker 3: I feel like a holiday to be beautiful.
Speaker 2: Of course, as soon as the first episode of season
Speaker 2: three dropped last week, google search is for where the
Speaker 2: hell is that filmed?
Speaker 1: And can I go there? Skyrocketed, And the truth of
Speaker 1: it is it's second only to why the hell did
Speaker 1: they change the theme music? Which was iconic. But we
Speaker 1: will move on.
Speaker 2: We will move on. We will learn to move on
Speaker 2: and grow and change. The hotels now in the white
Speaker 2: Lotus world actually by into that. You can buy Whiteladus packages,
Speaker 2: you can get deals, you can go online at the
Speaker 2: moment and you can buy a white Loadus fluffy white robe.
Speaker 2: You can buy white Loaders fluffy slippers. There are Instagram
Speaker 2: accounts with all the shoppable links to all the clothes
Speaker 2: the resort war that the women wear on the show,
Speaker 2: and everything in white Loadus land, it seems now is shoppable,
Speaker 2: which is not unusual because a lot of TV has
Speaker 2: gone that way. You can buy a appropriately named skinny
Speaker 2: water bottle from Emily in Paris. You can buy a
Speaker 2: Stranger Things motorbike helmet. You can buy all that stuff, which.
Speaker 3: We were discussing just last week that Netflix is about
Speaker 3: to get in on this.
Speaker 2: Big time with with Love Megan, which widely assumed is
Speaker 2: that you're going to be able to buy a lot
Speaker 2: of the things that are in that show. But I
Speaker 2: have a question specifically about the white load of thing,
Speaker 2: but broadly about aspiration, because if you watched any of
Speaker 2: the white loaduses, particularly the first one, but any of them,
Speaker 2: you'll know that actually, although it's very lovely to look at,
Speaker 2: it is actually a high level social satire about how
Speaker 2: rich people going to fancy resorts around the world are
Speaker 2: actually very problematic. It gives both perspectives to the people
Speaker 2: who work there and the people who stay there. And
Speaker 2: very often the people who work there, I hate truly
Speaker 2: awful people who are staying there. Sometimes there's murder involved.
Speaker 2: And in the first one there was a lot of
Speaker 2: commentary about the impact on Indigenous communities. There's always a
Speaker 2: lot of social commentary in those shows, and I find
Speaker 2: it really interesting that we love all that and then
Speaker 2: we go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I just want to
Speaker 2: go there. This spar looks amazing. Where can I book?
Speaker 2: It's like our aspiration completely overrides the context.
Speaker 3: We want their holiday, but we don't want to be.
Speaker 2: Them, but we will be them when we're on their holiday.
Speaker 3: Oh no, because we don't see ourselves as the leisure class.
Speaker 3: We do not see ourselves as that, And in fact
Speaker 3: there's this contrast between even like I keep thinking about
Speaker 3: the Kim Kardashian of the world, right keeping up with
Speaker 3: the Kardashian ended. I think last year I can't even tell.
Speaker 2: Them it's on again against It's not called keeping up
Speaker 2: the it's just called the Kardashians on at the.
Speaker 3: Moment, totally fizzled out in terms of interest.
Speaker 1: Cultural in terms of cultural.
Speaker 3: Relevance, it has totally fizzled out because I think there's
Speaker 3: something very on the nose about the Kardashians right now,
Speaker 3: the conspicuous consumption of it, that luxury goods. I don't
Speaker 3: think that that's what we aspire to anymore, and there's
Speaker 3: a real kind of revolt against it.
Speaker 2: I don't think you're right. I wish you were right
Speaker 2: about that, But I think if you look at the
Speaker 2: culture in America at the moment, there is a lot
Speaker 2: of aspiration towards extreme wealth. There's a lot of it.
Speaker 3: I think the ratings of the Kardashians tell us something.
Speaker 3: I think the fact that they are not cool. Like
Speaker 3: if someone told you that they were a massive fan
Speaker 3: of Kim Kardashian, you'd be very confused.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also that show, I think it's just morphed because
Speaker 2: the Kardashians has died for lots of reasons, one of
Speaker 2: which is that you're now expected to watch like with
Speaker 2: baited breath to see Kim Kardashian go to that fashion
Speaker 2: show that you've already seen her go to fifty five
Speaker 2: times on your socials by then. And I think there
Speaker 2: is some truth to the aspirational thing, but I think
Speaker 2: it's kind of just shifted a bit because now it
Speaker 2: is this we want to buy all the things that
Speaker 2: all the famous people have. One of the biggest obviously
Speaker 2: shows on YouTube is about giving away lots of money,
Speaker 2: making people into millionaires. Everybody wants that, Like, I don't
Speaker 2: think the hunger for money status things has gone anywhere.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think that something like the White Lotus
Speaker 2: and how we kind of love to be in on
Speaker 2: the joke of laughing at the rich people, but really
Speaker 2: we just want to be on their holiday kind of
Speaker 2: says that we haven't moved on.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it's as complicated as that.
Speaker 1: I think it's just like that looks like a really
Speaker 1: nice place to go and have a massage, or to
Speaker 1: go and have a swim, hopefully without any bodies in
Speaker 1: the pool. But that idea of there's no longer a
Speaker 1: barrier between what I see and I want to buy it,
Speaker 1: and that's what influencer culture is right because it's affiliate.
Speaker 1: I can just click on whatever this influencer is wearing,
Speaker 1: what products they're using. This is just an extension of that,
Speaker 1: which is why Netflix is actually a really logical partner
Speaker 1: for Megan Markle in terms of you watch it and
Speaker 1: then you click straight away.
Speaker 3: You say that there's no barrier. But the massive barrier
Speaker 3: that exists in a way that it didn't even ten
Speaker 3: years ago is the cost of living adress, and I
Speaker 3: think that that is kind of the ghost haunting all
Speaker 3: of this.
Speaker 1: But that's the whole point. So that you can't go
Speaker 1: to the White Lotus, you can't go to Thailand, but
Speaker 1: I can buy a little robe, or I can buy
Speaker 1: that little kaftan that she's wearing all the sandals, or
Speaker 1: a scented can.
Speaker 3: So I reckon that the aspiration has morphed, and I
Speaker 3: think it's smaller, Like I do think that there's a
Speaker 3: smaller world, Like I'm thinking about the tradwife because that
Speaker 3: has become very aspirational, but that's cooking your own sourdough,
Speaker 3: Like there's also something that is doable. Of course, they're all.
Speaker 1: Like that's about the aspiration of time, having a lot
Speaker 1: of time, exactly. And there's something called the Lipstick index
Speaker 1: or the Maine index, which is when the cost of
Speaker 1: living is high and people are struggling or there's a recession,
Speaker 1: the sales of small luxury goods will go up. So
Speaker 1: lipsticks used to be magazines, little things that you can buy.
Speaker 1: And that's why it's no accident that tmu's slogan is
Speaker 1: shopped like a billionaire without spending much money. And it's
Speaker 1: the same reason why the big designer houses like Chanelle
Speaker 1: or Duck Chaange, Gabana, they have fragrance businesses because ninety
Speaker 1: nine percent of people could never buy anything from Chanel,
Speaker 1: but they can afford a fragrance. So this idea of
Speaker 1: being able to buy a little bit of jam from
Speaker 1: Megan Markle, of being able to buy a white Loatus candle,
Speaker 1: or you know, in succession, it was about the stealth wealth.
Speaker 1: I can buy a little bit of that lifestyle that
Speaker 1: I could never afford.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because and I was listening to you talk
Speaker 2: about Megan last week, of course because I was off
Speaker 2: the show, but I was like, oh my god, what
Speaker 2: did you mean?
Speaker 1: Can we just break to ask what you thought about her? Announcement.
Speaker 2: I was very excited about the announcement. I think that
Speaker 2: a lot of the nitpicking about the copyright stuff is
Speaker 2: typical Meghan bashing, but also just astounding that they continue
Speaker 2: to apparently keep kicking such own goals. But on Meghan World,
Speaker 2: you said on that on the show last week, and
Speaker 2: you're very right that the esthetic. I know I say
Speaker 2: it wrong, but I can't help it. Just just go
Speaker 2: with me, just becol people like you that the esthetic
Speaker 2: that Meghan Michael is flogging or it was apparently going
Speaker 2: to be flogging on with Love Meghan and with as
Speaker 2: ever feels a bit dated now. She posted a vision board.
Speaker 2: Speaking of aspiration, she posted a vision board this week,
Speaker 2: and I'm just so happy she's back on Instagram. But
Speaker 2: I may have already say that, I'm sorry, I'll stop talking.
Speaker 1: You'll never get boring.
Speaker 2: One of the things that she posted this week is
Speaker 2: her vision board for we assume for with Love Meghan, right,
Speaker 2: and it's just a whole lot of it is just
Speaker 2: a whole lot of Easter eggs. So there are a
Speaker 2: lot of literal memes or what memes used to be
Speaker 2: from her tig days of like these kind of nafts.
Speaker 3: Like you can't please everyone, You're not a Jarrevan.
Speaker 2: That's all exactly that kind of stuff with a cursive
Speaker 2: font and then a little tig thing she like, it's
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. But I think it's back. This is my point,
Speaker 2: right because also on the corner of that vision board,
Speaker 2: because don't think I haven't seen it many times, what
Speaker 2: else is on it? There's a flat lay or what
Speaker 2: else is so a pancake with a face made from
Speaker 2: bacon and bananas. This is very exciting. There are fabrics,
Speaker 2: watches so whimsical that are definitely not from clothes because
Speaker 2: she's not allowed to sell those allowed to sell clothes
Speaker 2: as per copyrights. There's a very cute illustration of her
Speaker 2: and her man friend Harry and English coats. There's a
Speaker 2: flat lay of a lot of what are presumably are
Speaker 2: going to be the recipes from the show. They could
Speaker 2: be from the whole pantry, from the app, the Bell
Speaker 2: Gibson app that we've.
Speaker 1: All just seen, yes again around that time.
Speaker 2: So beautiful, looking, healthy, gorgeous. I mean, there's only so
Speaker 2: many ways to food style, right, but they look very
Speaker 2: much of the time, and I just think it's back.
Speaker 2: I think that level of aspiration, and probably for a
Speaker 2: lot of the reasons that you two were just discussing,
Speaker 2: like a bit of accessible joy, a little bit of
Speaker 2: trying to hold onto a portion of control in an
Speaker 2: uncontrollable world.
Speaker 1: Stewart two point zero that that kind of.
Speaker 2: Domestic aspiration as well, as you know, the white Lotus
Speaker 2: level is kind of back in fashion. Is it whimsy?
Speaker 1: Because you talk about the things that you'll be able
Speaker 1: to buy? I assume you probably won't be able to
Speaker 1: buy the ice cubes with the tiny little flowers.
Speaker 2: But anyone can make that tis isn't it. You can
Speaker 2: go out in your street, steal.
Speaker 1: Some flowers from someone else's guarded.
Speaker 2: Forage and put them in some water, and I will
Speaker 2: be free.
Speaker 3: My neighbor has a sign saying do not steal my hydrangers.
Speaker 3: I've thought about it.
Speaker 2: She's like, I know what you want to do with
Speaker 2: these pedals. I have one more question though, for me,
Speaker 2: a business brain. Back to the white lotus right, there
Speaker 2: would have been a time where an amazing brand like
Speaker 2: The Four Seasons would not want to be associated with
Speaker 2: a show where their staff were depicted taking drugs, sex,
Speaker 2: beating up people, getting murdered, where a fancy brand would
Speaker 2: have been like not near my brand, please. But the
Speaker 2: four seasons, obviously after the success of these shows, are
Speaker 2: leaning in I'm going, fine, we'll go with it. Very
Speaker 2: savvy marketing, but a bit of a shift.
Speaker 1: Not really when you think of that, these are basically
Speaker 1: like infomercials because the whole point of the show is
Speaker 1: to show when we check the plot out, it's just
Speaker 1: an infomercial. Turn off the volume, and it's just looks
Speaker 1: like a fantastic ad for you please find the murder,
Speaker 1: which are absolutely sold out. And I think the other
Speaker 1: thing about why everything's shoppable is that it's really expensive
Speaker 1: to make TV and film and there are so many
Speaker 1: challenges and by doing that, not only is it an
Speaker 1: extra revenue stream for the creators and there's money to
Speaker 1: be made, but then there's also product placement. And apparently
Speaker 1: that I was reading that the White Lotus they were
Speaker 1: talking about season four was going to be in Norway,
Speaker 1: and that's just fallen through because one of the things
Speaker 1: that they demand from the countries is massive tax breaks
Speaker 1: and grants and all of those things, because those are
Speaker 1: expensive shows to make and you need all the help
Speaker 1: that you can.
Speaker 3: Get in case he missed it. Last Thursday, billionaire Clive Palmer,
Speaker 3: former head of the United Australia Party, launched a brand
Speaker 3: new political party. Did you guys say this?
Speaker 2: I did. I saw the hats, shoppable shoppable hats.
Speaker 1: I did not know that Clive Palmer was still a thing.
Speaker 3: Okay, So it is called trump Et of Patriots.
Speaker 1: Trump Trumpet, Trumpety Trumpet the the oh did there? Yes?
Speaker 3: Can you see what he did?
Speaker 1: What a genius?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It promises to make Australia.
Speaker 1: Trump again, great gaat again, My goodness.
Speaker 3: Sorry, he wants to drain the swamp of Canberra. What
Speaker 3: was his last party called United Australia. He's had a
Speaker 3: few now.
Speaker 1: It's like, we're not even going to pretend to United Australia.
Speaker 1: Were Actually that's going to lean in to dividing every country.
Speaker 3: What actually happened is that he lost a high court
Speaker 3: bid to reregister United Australia. So I needed a new net. Okay,
Speaker 3: bitlight megants who.
Speaker 1: He's calling it the as I'm quite far.
Speaker 3: He wants to ban transathletes from women's sport. Basically, all
Speaker 3: his ideas are imported from Trump's America. Is this something
Speaker 3: we should be worried about, like, are we about to
Speaker 3: turn into what's happened over there?
Speaker 1: And is this our republican part I don't think so
Speaker 1: everyone keeps saying that, and it's like, Oh, Dutton's going
Speaker 1: to go so Trumpian and he's going to do culture wars.
Speaker 1: He's already said he's not. Now politicians are politicians. But
Speaker 1: we've spoken on the show before after we all freaked
Speaker 1: out when Trump got back in that the reason that
Speaker 1: Australian politics will never become as extreme is because of
Speaker 1: compulsory voting. And this sounds really nerdy, but it's not
Speaker 1: that people don't care as much or that there aren't
Speaker 1: as many people here that will be attracted to extreme things.
Speaker 1: But in countries where voting isn't compulsory, it's like the algorithm.
Speaker 1: It's literally the same thing. The issues and the policies
Speaker 1: and the vibe that gets people out to vote has
Speaker 1: to be extreme.
Speaker 3: It's what I remember Holly saying that it has to
Speaker 3: be presented as existential as this is the last election,
Speaker 3: get off your bum.
Speaker 1: And whereas in Australia, in most countries the vast majority
Speaker 1: of people are in the middle are basically centrist. They're
Speaker 1: not extreme left or extreme right. We also don't have
Speaker 1: everyone vote.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we also don't have the far right component. We
Speaker 3: don't have fifty states. I think that that totally changes
Speaker 3: our like we're obsessed with American politics culturally, I think.
Speaker 3: But it is naive to suggest that it is going
Speaker 3: to sort of infiltrate. I think how this.
Speaker 2: Election is run.
Speaker 3: I think that this not so sure. You know, you
Speaker 3: know what it might infiltrate. It doesn't work. I do
Speaker 3: not think it works. And let's remember that Clive Palmer,
Speaker 3: who has already run on make Australia great Again since
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, are worked for Trump. He spent more than
Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty million dollars to secure one seat
Speaker 3: in parliament.
Speaker 1: He's just not the vibe.
Speaker 3: He's not the vibe.
Speaker 2: The most Trumpian thing about Clive Palmer in many ways
Speaker 2: is his exaggeration of his own success right because he
Speaker 2: is a very rich man. He is a proper billionaire.
Speaker 2: He's not pretending. But he has been trying to win
Speaker 2: serious Australian political influence for a decade and he has failed.
Speaker 2: Clive Palmer, Yeah, Clive Palmer has, and so he would
Speaker 2: have to go much much harder at it than he
Speaker 2: is at the moment with his trumpet whatever, I mean,
Speaker 2: god trumpet of patriots. But I'm a very strong It's
Speaker 2: so funny because when I came here from England, which
Speaker 2: is a very long time ago now, and I thought
Speaker 2: that mandatory voting was unbelievable, Like my head nearly fell off.
Speaker 2: I was like that it was bad. Yeah, I've never
Speaker 2: even heard of it. I've never heard of such a thing.
Speaker 2: There aren't very many places you to have it.
Speaker 1: An American in this horrified and.
Speaker 2: I actually thought it was probably quite bad for politics
Speaker 2: because I used to think, oh, you know, people aren't informed,
Speaker 2: but they have to vote. You know, they don't care,
Speaker 2: but they have to vote. And now thirty years down
Speaker 2: the line, I've been here nearly thirty years, I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's great. The fact that you don't have to exercise
Speaker 2: the edges exactly how you just explained it is brilliant.
Speaker 2: But I don't think there is any argument that there
Speaker 2: is a lot of hate to be made from dividing people.
Speaker 2: And in Australia we do have similar divisions between the
Speaker 2: metro people and the regional people. Country Australia, which is
Speaker 2: the real Australia. Who are the real Australians? And we
Speaker 2: saw it in the campaign for the Indigenous referendum. Voice
Speaker 2: to Parliament working those divisions can be quite successful. So,
Speaker 2: although I agree with you, Jesse, I don't think that
Speaker 2: Palmer's the vibe. I'm not quite so optimistic that we're
Speaker 2: not susceptible to that division.
Speaker 1: The election is set to be announced soon. There's been
Speaker 1: rumors that it's going to be announced any day and
Speaker 1: that maybe the election will be before Easter.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm worried about very selfishly, Well, if
Speaker 2: it's on the day we do one of our shows,
Speaker 2: I mean we will have time to go and vote.
Speaker 2: What if the result comes in while we're on stageh
Speaker 2: that not just be fun?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 2: Could we be likely sales out of bell Crab like
Speaker 2: on the stage calling it Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: We will bags you be Anthony Green Jesse.
Speaker 3: In a moment. There are seven different types of Flakes,
Speaker 3: which one is.
Speaker 2: Maya one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 2: link at the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 2: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: Counseling plans is so hot right now. Last week I
Speaker 1: tried to cancel a dinner because it was raining.
Speaker 2: How did that go?
Speaker 1: The person I tried to cancel told me that I
Speaker 1: was pathetic and did you go? I went good and
Speaker 1: I had a great time. Glad I didn't cancel. Everyone's lonely.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to actually leaving the house, how
Speaker 1: come nobody can be bothered to follow through on the
Speaker 1: arrangement they made in a flood of social enthusiasm last
Speaker 1: week after their second coffee. Stylus dot com recently posted
Speaker 1: a story by writer Shahed Azadi about the psychology behind
Speaker 1: the seven different types of flake, and I guarantee that
Speaker 1: you will recognize yourself or the flakes in your life
Speaker 1: from the following list. First one, the relationship flake. This
Speaker 1: is the kind of flake that cancels because of reasons
Speaker 1: or plans with their partner. Their partner will always come first.
Speaker 3: I find that flake very annoying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, strange.
Speaker 1: Second type is the work flake. They're always working in.
Speaker 1: Work will always be prioritized.
Speaker 2: I'm sure we've all been that.
Speaker 1: The last minute flake. This is my jam. They have
Speaker 1: something called present bias, so they commit to plans when
Speaker 1: they feel excited and like it's a good idea, but
Speaker 1: then they struggle with those plans when they're faced with
Speaker 1: the immediate cognitive load of following.
Speaker 2: Through on the You know what's great about the last
Speaker 2: minute flake is that sometimes if I'm at a social
Speaker 2: event where me is meant to come, I never think
Speaker 2: she's gonna come. I think she's going to last minute flake,
Speaker 2: and then sometimes she just turns up and it's like
Speaker 2: a wonderful surprise. I remember when we were going to
Speaker 2: something at the Opera House and we were having dinner
Speaker 2: before and I was like, Mia is never coming to
Speaker 2: this restaurant. Too many steps, too many steps, too much,
Speaker 2: she will never find a park, it's not going to happen.
Speaker 2: And then she just materialized.
Speaker 1: It was like a little tree. I have a lot
Speaker 1: of stern words with myself because I'm trying to deflake
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to be more present, so I've got
Speaker 1: like a show up thing anyway. Number four this is
Speaker 1: also sometimes me the forgetful flake. This flake relies on
Speaker 1: the other person either forgetting that you've made the plan,
Speaker 1: or hoping that the planned hangout is forgotten so that
Speaker 1: no excuses are necessary. Preemptive flake is someone who's so
Speaker 1: proceeds of bailing a few days out they start complaining
Speaker 1: of feeling tired, run down, or busy at work. That's
Speaker 1: not me, because that's someone with a lot of just
Speaker 1: say no yes. I think this is possibly you two
Speaker 1: definitely number six the people pleasing flake, and this is
Speaker 1: people who say yes to plans to make everyone happy,
Speaker 1: but there's no way they can do it all, so
Speaker 1: they have to flake.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I will say yes in the moment. Two
Speaker 3: plans on Monday night.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then I go, hmmm, something to work that.
Speaker 1: So you'll say yes because you don't want to disappoint
Speaker 1: someone in the moment. And sometimes do you always know
Speaker 1: that you're going to cancel before it?
Speaker 2: Yes, you do.
Speaker 3: I know that I've got to and then ultimately you
Speaker 3: just let them down ten times more than you would
Speaker 3: have in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is your fear.
Speaker 1: And the last one, seventh type of flake is the
Speaker 1: upgrade flake. This is a flake you'll see a lot
Speaker 1: around news eve. They say yes to plans with you,
Speaker 1: but they keep an eye out for better options always.
Speaker 2: Ye, Mia, I've got a bone to pick with you.
Speaker 2: A bit of feedback about your flakiness. It's not actually
Speaker 2: about the flakingness. It's about because MEA's she's the opposite
Speaker 2: of the people please a flake.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: So Mia wrote a newsletter recently, maybe I was feeling sensitive.
Speaker 2: I was like, fuck sake, Maya. When I read.
Speaker 1: Anyone that I had that reaction.
Speaker 2: It was I've got a new way to say no
Speaker 2: to plans, to things I don't want to do. And
Speaker 2: I think the subject line would have been better than that,
Speaker 2: because you're a good writer. But it was basically that
Speaker 2: when someone asks you to do something, you just say,
Speaker 2: oh no, I'd hate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh know, I'd hate that.
Speaker 2: That is so offensive and so very levels.
Speaker 1: Because can I explain I got a liverit that that's
Speaker 1: highly advanced. That's highly advanced preflaking.
Speaker 2: That is like an aggressive, aggressive flake because no, it
Speaker 2: doesn't just say I don't want to do it. It
Speaker 2: kind of says you must be crazy for wanting to
Speaker 2: do that and for thinking, even for a moment, that
Speaker 2: I want to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very hard because there's a bit of shame
Speaker 1: in that place. Yes in that response, isn't there?
Speaker 2: And then the other part of my worry is like,
Speaker 2: I've got some concern trolling about it for you. What
Speaker 2: if you think you'd hate it but you wouldn't, because
Speaker 2: I worry that sometimes when you were very rigid about
Speaker 2: I don't do those things, like I don't do Monday
Speaker 2: night drinks or I don't do you. She used to
Speaker 2: be I don't do red carpets.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Then she went to the logis, yeah, she did a
Speaker 2: red carpet every week, but I hate it still. But
Speaker 2: you went to another one and you were like, actually
Speaker 2: that was fun. So what about breaking out of rigiditity?
Speaker 1: You're right, and sometimes you need to just get over
Speaker 1: yourself and show up. Sometimes you just got to show
Speaker 1: up when it's hurtful to someone else, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's important to show up.
Speaker 3: Twice yesterday I tried to convince people to come to
Speaker 3: an escape room with me. She's different social situations, and
Speaker 3: twice they said along the words of oh, no, i'd
Speaker 3: hate that and starting a movement. Guys, I found myself
Speaker 3: becoming a paid sponsor of escape rooms. And I got
Speaker 3: home and I went.
Speaker 1: Because it's then you take it as a challenge and
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm going to convince.
Speaker 3: You escape rooms are actually really fun.
Speaker 2: Have you found anyone to go to an escape room? Only? Luca?
Speaker 3: And it's just too sad. I am actually reformed for
Speaker 3: like I have managed to reform it.
Speaker 1: You go out a lot. That's true because what changed.
Speaker 3: I was in my I reckon early twenties, so unreliable,
Speaker 3: so like, and that was the I realized that that
Speaker 3: was a reputation I was getting, letting people down with
Speaker 3: something I did all the time because of the people
Speaker 3: pleasing element. I wasn't organized in a diary and I
Speaker 3: saw it seriously people's feelings and someone who needed to
Speaker 3: hang out because something was going on in their lives.
Speaker 3: I wasn't there, and you don't come back from that.
Speaker 1: It's a bit like sex as well, like sometimes you
Speaker 1: just don't feel like it, like the thought of it.
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't know, I'd hate that. Oh no,
Speaker 1: I'd hate that, you think to yourself, But then you
Speaker 1: have a great time.
Speaker 6: I want what I want us to find this many
Speaker 6: ways to answer the question with oh no. This week's
Speaker 6: challenge for everybody.
Speaker 5: Involved with that loud Okay, massive thank you to all
Speaker 5: of the out louders who didn't say oh no, I'd
Speaker 5: hate that when it came to pressing play on today's show,
Speaker 5: and of course to a fabulous scene for putting it together.
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Goodbye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and Me are subscribers listening.
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Me I is the very best
Speaker 3: way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.