WEBVTT - Finally, The Person Missing From The Ruby Franke Story 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.341 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.741 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:22.381 --> 0:00:24.421 It's a bit like sex as well, like sometimes you 0:00:24.502 --> 0:00:26.142 just don't feel like it, like the thought of it. 0:00:26.142 --> 0:00:28.342 You're like, I don't know, I'd hate that. Oh no, 0:00:28.382 --> 0:00:32.461 i'd hate that, you think to yourself. But then you 0:00:32.702 --> 0:00:33.502 have a great time. 0:00:38.302 --> 0:00:40.982 Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out loud. It's 0:00:41.022 --> 0:00:43.822 what women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty 0:00:43.822 --> 0:00:45.862 fourth of February. I'm Holly way. 0:00:45.862 --> 0:00:48.502 Right, and I am back bitch is I'm meya f. 0:00:50.022 --> 0:00:51.062 And I'm Jessees. 0:00:51.542 --> 0:00:54.742 They're being cool if you're not watching Severance. Yeah, it's 0:00:54.782 --> 0:00:55.662 a Severance reference. 0:00:55.742 --> 0:00:58.342 Yeah, correct, my friends exactly because we're at work, so 0:00:58.422 --> 0:01:01.822 we are yes, yef and your Holly is your hollyw W. 0:01:02.062 --> 0:01:03.862 And we've decided that actually talking about how much we 0:01:03.902 --> 0:01:05.942 love Severance is just trying to tell people how smummy this. 0:01:06.062 --> 0:01:08.182 It's definitely a flex and if you do love Severance, 0:01:08.222 --> 0:01:10.902 we may be recording a subscript episode about it very soon. 0:01:11.222 --> 0:01:15.702 But on today's show, the person we're not talking about 0:01:15.822 --> 0:01:19.462 in the story of the parenting influencer who went to jail. Also, 0:01:19.662 --> 0:01:22.422 everyone's lonely, but no one wants to make plans. Why 0:01:22.462 --> 0:01:24.702 we're in the year of the Flake, unless you're mere Friedman, 0:01:24.822 --> 0:01:27.342 who has mastered the pre flake, and I have some 0:01:27.382 --> 0:01:31.102 feedback for you about that. Also why we're all falling 0:01:31.102 --> 0:01:33.702 over ourselves to book into the White Lotus, even though 0:01:33.822 --> 0:01:36.142 the stuff might try and kill us there, But first 0:01:36.302 --> 0:01:36.942 mea Friedman. 0:01:37.422 --> 0:01:39.782 In case you missed it, it's rough out there in 0:01:39.822 --> 0:01:42.462 the news cycle, which is probably why a post about 0:01:42.502 --> 0:01:46.622 whimsy went viral over the weekend. Whimsy is not a 0:01:46.622 --> 0:01:50.142 word that you hear very often, and I couldn't refine 0:01:50.142 --> 0:01:52.302 it myself, so I looked up the definition. It's like 0:01:52.342 --> 0:01:56.582 a playful, fanciful quality, full of odd or unpredictable ideas 0:01:56.582 --> 0:01:59.862 that brings lighthearted humor and makes ordinary things feel a 0:01:59.862 --> 0:02:04.062 bit magical and joyful. So someone asked women in a 0:02:04.142 --> 0:02:07.542 video on TikTok what their whimsical little habits are, and 0:02:07.582 --> 0:02:10.181 the internet responded in a way that felt a little 0:02:10.181 --> 0:02:13.702 bit like a magical hug. Some of the answers included 0:02:13.901 --> 0:02:16.702 when my cat clearly wants something and meows at me, 0:02:16.862 --> 0:02:18.462 I tell her to use your words. 0:02:19.542 --> 0:02:20.542 I often say that's shell. 0:02:21.262 --> 0:02:22.222 Yeah, very cute. 0:02:22.622 --> 0:02:25.501 For my own amusement, I say officers and nod. When 0:02:25.502 --> 0:02:29.022 I see pigeons, I say, may I take your coat 0:02:29.062 --> 0:02:31.982 while peeling garlic. I didn't understand that because I don't 0:02:32.022 --> 0:02:33.062 peel garlic very often. 0:02:33.342 --> 0:02:35.742 The garlic's wearing little coats. Okay, paper coats. 0:02:36.942 --> 0:02:39.982 I call my to do list, my tadar list, and 0:02:40.062 --> 0:02:43.102 do jazz hands as I tick things off. That's cute. 0:02:43.102 --> 0:02:43.782 I like that. 0:02:44.262 --> 0:02:46.382 I kiss my cat on both cheeks, then she kisses 0:02:46.422 --> 0:02:49.502 me on both cheeks. Then I explained she's European to 0:02:49.622 --> 0:02:53.782 no one. So can you think of many examples of whimsy? 0:02:54.142 --> 0:02:56.382 I think everybody does it with their pets, right, Pets 0:02:56.382 --> 0:02:57.942 bring out the wims in you. We all have a 0:02:58.022 --> 0:03:00.542 voice for a dog. I assume I do for a 0:03:00.662 --> 0:03:02.702 very specific voice. But you know what, I was trying 0:03:02.742 --> 0:03:05.262 to do the voice before in the toilet, like I 0:03:05.422 --> 0:03:08.341 was warming up, and I was like, let's do the voice. 0:03:08.502 --> 0:03:09.982 I cannot do it unless she's there. 0:03:10.862 --> 0:03:12.982 Yeah, okay, you can't conjure it. 0:03:14.622 --> 0:03:15.422 Cute little face. 0:03:15.622 --> 0:03:17.382 Yes, I know what you mean. Clara and I have 0:03:17.502 --> 0:03:22.142 exclusively spoken through the girls, babies and I've realized, you know, 0:03:22.181 --> 0:03:24.262 when you look at your your whimsical thing and you go, 0:03:24.822 --> 0:03:27.822 might actually not be that pc because Matilda speaks with 0:03:27.862 --> 0:03:30.302 an accent. I'm not going to say what accent, but 0:03:30.582 --> 0:03:35.222 she actually doesn't speak English English second it's her second language, 0:03:35.222 --> 0:03:37.222 because she doesn't yet, no, she doesn't. She babbles and 0:03:37.222 --> 0:03:39.582 we go, well, yes, that is her language. And so 0:03:39.662 --> 0:03:42.742 we often text from the girls to one another. Clara 0:03:42.782 --> 0:03:44.902 and I haven't had a conversation in nearly two years. 0:03:45.982 --> 0:03:47.582 And the other thing, I imagine. 0:03:47.262 --> 0:03:49.782 The twins life is full of whimsy. Yes, yeah, it 0:03:49.862 --> 0:03:53.262 is sort of magical. Every day little silly things you do. 0:03:53.742 --> 0:03:55.862 And I realized that Lucra and I and you know 0:03:55.902 --> 0:03:57.462 when you tell it out loud and you just sound 0:03:57.502 --> 0:03:59.942 like the lamest person in the world. Luca and I 0:03:59.982 --> 0:04:01.702 have one where every night he gets into bed and 0:04:01.742 --> 0:04:03.782 he says, have you hidden my eye mask? Because he 0:04:03.822 --> 0:04:05.382 wears an eye mask? And what a ridiculous thing. Why 0:04:05.422 --> 0:04:07.422 would I hide his eye mask? And we play this 0:04:07.462 --> 0:04:09.102 whole thing where like I didn't hide your eye mask 0:04:09.142 --> 0:04:10.902 and then you find it anyway. 0:04:10.702 --> 0:04:12.862 That sounds hilarious, hilarious, No, no, no, But. 0:04:13.062 --> 0:04:15.702 Because the people's whimsies are hard. But then I stepped up. 0:04:15.822 --> 0:04:16.541 It gets funnier. 0:04:16.662 --> 0:04:19.541 Yeah, because then I started hiding it and it became 0:04:19.582 --> 0:04:22.582 a little game, and I hide it every night and 0:04:22.622 --> 0:04:25.062 then he can't find it, and then we have this 0:04:25.142 --> 0:04:28.301 little playful thing. And it's like people think we're boring 0:04:28.301 --> 0:04:30.262 because we have a baby, but here we are looking. 0:04:30.061 --> 0:04:33.741 For an ear mask. Oh that's quite good, isn't it. Fun? 0:04:34.101 --> 0:04:35.981 Vegetables a lot, I asked, you know what I'm saying 0:04:36.022 --> 0:04:38.782 to them. You're having a hard day. You are on 0:04:38.941 --> 0:04:40.261 your darling. It's gonna be okay. 0:04:40.342 --> 0:04:43.181 I had a thing where I accidentally bought too many 0:04:43.421 --> 0:04:47.421 packs of tiny snack sized sandwich bags, but like the 0:04:47.462 --> 0:04:50.981 snack size, you know, the resealable ones. And my children 0:04:51.022 --> 0:04:53.702 who don't live at home, always come home and like rifle, 0:04:53.782 --> 0:04:55.502 they go shopping in the pantry and in the fridge 0:04:55.501 --> 0:04:56.902 and they're always looking for things, and I'm always trying 0:04:56.902 --> 0:04:59.462 to offload these tiny, little stupid sandwich bags that I've 0:04:59.462 --> 0:05:01.582 got many packets off and then I want them. So 0:05:01.621 --> 0:05:04.342 what I do is that I always hide them like 0:05:04.421 --> 0:05:08.181 in their glove box. All that's fun, handbag, that's quite fun. 0:05:08.421 --> 0:05:10.621 And the other thing that I was thinking that was whimsy. 0:05:11.022 --> 0:05:14.462 Is my jeans today, which none of you have noticed. 0:05:14.501 --> 0:05:16.581 I think you get all your wimsy out of your clothes. 0:05:16.262 --> 0:05:22.981 Actually pretend track suit pants that look like jeanspitch. 0:05:21.861 --> 0:05:23.901 Yes turning up, which can't be good for audio. 0:05:24.142 --> 0:05:25.861 We all document this on the feed. 0:05:26.621 --> 0:05:30.541 Is that whimsy putting on jeans is like a thing 0:05:30.621 --> 0:05:33.501 that's not very whimsical, But I've made them whimsical because 0:05:33.501 --> 0:05:35.422 they're actually secretly tracksuit pack. 0:05:35.462 --> 0:05:37.462 The other whimsical thing we've been doing is I feel 0:05:37.501 --> 0:05:40.182 like every time you know you've got Luna or I've 0:05:40.181 --> 0:05:42.301 got Luna, is we teach her a new phrase that 0:05:42.342 --> 0:05:45.101 she actually doesn't need. So she got home from the 0:05:45.181 --> 0:05:48.622 other day gay rights. Someone had taught the nanny had 0:05:48.621 --> 0:05:50.342 taught Luna gay rights, and we were all just having 0:05:50.381 --> 0:05:51.021 a laugh about it. 0:05:51.142 --> 0:05:53.541 Yeah, it's just a bit silly, very silly. You know 0:05:53.582 --> 0:05:59.381 what's whimsy? The budgies. The budgies are yes you a producer. 0:05:59.501 --> 0:06:02.421 Ruth play the little prank on mea a while ago 0:06:02.541 --> 0:06:04.621 where we were sitting in her office having an important 0:06:04.662 --> 0:06:08.141 meeting about something serious, and then suddenly we noticed that 0:06:08.181 --> 0:06:10.142 they were a little pretend Bude and. 0:06:10.101 --> 0:06:11.742 I thought it was real. I could just see one 0:06:11.782 --> 0:06:14.342 and I was like, is that real? On? 0:06:14.462 --> 0:06:18.421 Like a pop plant hiding in one of MEA's coat hangers? 0:06:18.902 --> 0:06:21.742 And the in joke is that, Mia? What's the en 0:06:21.782 --> 0:06:22.262 joke about it? 0:06:22.462 --> 0:06:24.061 It's something about it. I look at a camera and 0:06:24.101 --> 0:06:24.701 talk to myself. 0:06:26.301 --> 0:06:28.142 Yes, yeah, they're very whimsy. 0:06:29.022 --> 0:06:31.702 You might have heard about Ruby Frank, a woman who 0:06:31.782 --> 0:06:34.741 abused her children in front of millions of people, but 0:06:34.861 --> 0:06:38.181 what do we know about her husband? Let's start at 0:06:38.222 --> 0:06:40.181 the beginning. Do you guys know much about this story? 0:06:40.262 --> 0:06:42.541 I know nothing. It's an all or nothing story. I 0:06:42.621 --> 0:06:46.702 know she's a YouTuber and an influencer and was while 0:06:46.782 --> 0:06:49.262 she was you know, had this big channel, was secretly 0:06:49.301 --> 0:06:51.421 abusing her children, and now she's in jail. That's yeah. 0:06:51.541 --> 0:06:54.022 I had no context for when the story came out. 0:06:54.022 --> 0:06:56.702 I'd never heard of her. So basically, in twenty fifteen, 0:06:56.782 --> 0:06:59.702 Ruby Frank, she was a mother of six living in Utah, 0:06:59.981 --> 0:07:02.941 began a YouTube channel called eight Passengers so six Kids, 0:07:02.941 --> 0:07:05.462 her and her husband Kevin. At its peak, the channel 0:07:05.501 --> 0:07:09.301 had two point five million subscribers, and the content often 0:07:09.381 --> 0:07:12.581 in sight into their home life. Her parenting style was 0:07:12.662 --> 0:07:16.822 always very strict. For example, her two sons were play 0:07:16.862 --> 0:07:19.542 fighting in one video, and she told them if they 0:07:19.622 --> 0:07:21.742 kept doing it, they'd lose the privilege of eating dinner. 0:07:22.102 --> 0:07:24.581 One of her daughters was cutting things in the house 0:07:24.622 --> 0:07:26.382 and she threatened to cut off the head of her doll. 0:07:27.102 --> 0:07:29.902 But things started to become more and more extreme over 0:07:29.902 --> 0:07:30.941 the course of the channel. 0:07:31.022 --> 0:07:35.622 This at the time when those family YouTubers and they 0:07:35.662 --> 0:07:38.662 sort of documented their whole life. It's not so common anymore, 0:07:38.662 --> 0:07:41.062 I don't think, but it was huge in the mid. 0:07:41.262 --> 0:07:44.302 The kind of yeah, yeah, exactly in Utah because of 0:07:44.342 --> 0:07:46.622 the Mormon element, there are these big families. 0:07:46.662 --> 0:07:49.141 It feels like, not to want to make light of 0:07:49.182 --> 0:07:52.742 this story, but that Utah really overrepresents in the influencer space. 0:07:52.902 --> 0:07:55.821 It's like a lot of the traadwives from Utah. Yeah, 0:07:55.862 --> 0:07:58.141 a lot of the big families are from Utah. It 0:07:58.222 --> 0:08:00.462 must have a high headcount of it does. 0:08:00.542 --> 0:08:02.942 And physically it's a very beautiful face. 0:08:04.222 --> 0:08:05.302 A set. 0:08:05.582 --> 0:08:08.542 Things then became more extreme. So her older son, Chad, 0:08:08.742 --> 0:08:11.461 speaking to the said that his mother had taken away 0:08:11.542 --> 0:08:14.422 his bed for seven months after he played a prank 0:08:14.462 --> 0:08:16.901 on his sibling, and since he'd been sleeping on a 0:08:16.941 --> 0:08:20.302 bean bag, and in the video, Ruby Frank was seen laughing. 0:08:20.821 --> 0:08:24.461 This then launched a petition flagging that there were signs 0:08:24.462 --> 0:08:28.381 of abuse and neglect where they called on Child Protective 0:08:28.422 --> 0:08:31.581 Services to investigate. That was from her followers. The channel 0:08:31.622 --> 0:08:33.942 shut down, and then Ruby Frank kind of went off. 0:08:34.022 --> 0:08:36.142 We didn't see so much of her kids anymore, but 0:08:36.222 --> 0:08:39.462 she launched a parenting advice support program alongside this woman 0:08:39.542 --> 0:08:43.542 named Jody Hildebrand. Then in August twenty twenty three, this 0:08:43.622 --> 0:08:47.902 story broke out again because one of Frank's children, reportedly malnourished, 0:08:48.222 --> 0:08:50.702 climbed out of Hildebrand's house and banged on the door 0:08:50.742 --> 0:08:52.822 of a neighbor asking for food and water. 0:08:53.302 --> 0:08:55.622 I just had a twelve year old boy so up 0:08:55.662 --> 0:08:59.502 here at my front door asking for help, and he's 0:08:59.862 --> 0:09:03.662 said he had just came from a neighbor's house. He's emaciated, 0:09:03.822 --> 0:09:05.942 he's got tape around his leg. 0:09:06.302 --> 0:09:10.062 Frank and this Hildebrand woman were arrested and four of 0:09:10.102 --> 0:09:13.022 Frank's children were taken into care. The eldest two were 0:09:13.062 --> 0:09:15.782 out of home by that point. Here's what we know 0:09:15.862 --> 0:09:18.542 about what Frank was doing to her children. She forced 0:09:18.542 --> 0:09:20.862 her twelve year old son to do hours of physical 0:09:20.902 --> 0:09:24.662 tasks off and outside. It resulted in serious sunburn that blistered. 0:09:24.982 --> 0:09:28.062 He was denied food and after attempting to run away, 0:09:28.102 --> 0:09:31.702 his hands and feet were regularly bound. Similar punishments were 0:09:31.742 --> 0:09:35.381 inflicted on her daughter. There are more horrific details that 0:09:35.422 --> 0:09:38.381 I'm not going to outline here, but Frank was ultimately 0:09:38.622 --> 0:09:41.702 charged with child abuse and will spend four to sixty 0:09:41.822 --> 0:09:45.702 years behind bars, which I think it will be around thirty. 0:09:46.422 --> 0:09:48.542 This has led to a lot of reflection and potential 0:09:48.622 --> 0:09:51.302 law reform. When we round dad, where is Kevin? I 0:09:51.422 --> 0:09:54.662 have often wondered this because he has evaded a lot 0:09:54.662 --> 0:09:58.342 of scrutiny. They were separated by that point, and he 0:09:58.702 --> 0:10:01.542 had not been living with Ruby Frank for about thirteen 0:10:01.582 --> 0:10:04.102 months before this happened, and it is understood that the 0:10:04.142 --> 0:10:07.422 abuse really stepped up in that time. He hadn't seen 0:10:07.422 --> 0:10:09.702 the children, and he hadn't seen the children, but a 0:10:09.742 --> 0:10:13.782 lot of the strict behaviors and also having the children 0:10:13.822 --> 0:10:14.862 on a YouTube channel. 0:10:15.022 --> 0:10:17.502 The YouTube channel involved him exactly right. 0:10:17.982 --> 0:10:21.782 But over the weekend Kevin Frank spoke about his regrets 0:10:22.262 --> 0:10:24.982 and he said that he is petitioning for a bill 0:10:25.142 --> 0:10:28.182 whereby a child claims a percentage of money made off 0:10:28.222 --> 0:10:31.582 their image, and also can demand as an adult that 0:10:31.622 --> 0:10:33.102 the content made of them be removed. 0:10:33.422 --> 0:10:36.262 You would assume that that was already the case, but 0:10:36.302 --> 0:10:37.662 I guess it's just not in law. 0:10:37.822 --> 0:10:40.502 No, it is in some countries. So this is part 0:10:40.542 --> 0:10:43.542 of the whole reckoning around. You know, this kind of 0:10:43.702 --> 0:10:48.502 influencing that involves children, and there are some countries where 0:10:48.702 --> 0:10:50.822 ten percent of the income has to be put aside 0:10:50.942 --> 0:10:52.742 in some kind of trust for a child, and they 0:10:52.782 --> 0:10:55.022 want to try and pass a similar law in some 0:10:55.062 --> 0:10:57.542 of the states in America, which is why this guy has. 0:10:57.422 --> 0:11:00.502 Come out has come out. But Holly, I wondered when 0:11:00.502 --> 0:11:03.381 I saw this a week conflating two issues here because 0:11:03.382 --> 0:11:06.502 one is the YouTube element. But is this actually a 0:11:06.542 --> 0:11:08.782 story about vologging or is this a story about something 0:11:08.822 --> 0:11:09.502 else entirely. 0:11:10.502 --> 0:11:13.822 I think this story gets misrepresented a lot because I'm 0:11:13.822 --> 0:11:16.782 probably typical of some out louders who aren't massively familiar 0:11:16.782 --> 0:11:19.422 with the Franks in that I've seen these headlines around 0:11:19.462 --> 0:11:23.222 a lot, and it's been very much cautionary tale about 0:11:23.222 --> 0:11:28.382 putting your children online, toxic side of influencing and parent influencers. 0:11:28.982 --> 0:11:31.062 But what we're talking about here some of the abuse 0:11:31.142 --> 0:11:33.822 that you outlined before, the stuff that Ruby Frank actually 0:11:33.822 --> 0:11:37.182 got arrested for and is serving a significant jail term for, 0:11:37.302 --> 0:11:40.662 as she absolutely should. That was not on the internet. 0:11:40.902 --> 0:11:44.142 That is child abuse of the highest order. And it's 0:11:44.182 --> 0:11:46.261 not like she was putting that upon YouTube. There is 0:11:46.302 --> 0:11:49.222 a world of difference between the kind of stuff that 0:11:49.342 --> 0:11:52.102 she was famous for, and I think we should be 0:11:52.142 --> 0:11:54.182 really clear about. One of the reasons why this, I 0:11:54.182 --> 0:11:57.102 think is so shocking in inverted commons to people is 0:11:57.102 --> 0:11:59.982 that Ruby Frank, certainly at the time of her fame, 0:12:00.582 --> 0:12:04.542 she doesn't look like an abusive parent in inverted commerce. 0:12:04.582 --> 0:12:07.582 Obviously I'm not saying that, but that's the world's perceptions. 0:12:07.782 --> 0:12:11.982 She's very well roomed, white lady with the nice bob 0:12:12.022 --> 0:12:14.742 and the beautiful home and all the beautiful children, and 0:12:14.782 --> 0:12:18.582 there's that aspirational element that people buy into. But she 0:12:18.702 --> 0:12:20.902 was known, as you said, Jesse, for being quite strict. 0:12:20.942 --> 0:12:22.622 But there is a world of difference between the kind 0:12:22.662 --> 0:12:24.302 of stuff she was putting up on YouTube, which was 0:12:24.302 --> 0:12:27.822 stuff like my daughter forgot her lunch today, the teacher 0:12:27.862 --> 0:12:29.582 called me, But I'm gonna let her go hungry to 0:12:29.622 --> 0:12:32.182 teach her a lesson let them. Yep, that's a let them. 0:12:32.222 --> 0:12:34.342 And also some people would say that's you know, that's 0:12:34.422 --> 0:12:39.982 good parenting, like resilience, content, etc. There is an ocean 0:12:40.022 --> 0:12:43.022 of difference between that and keeping your child restrained in 0:12:43.062 --> 0:12:44.862 a secret room in your house. And I think that 0:12:44.982 --> 0:12:48.302 in a way, the headlines and the beautiful blonde lady 0:12:48.382 --> 0:12:52.022 and the parent influencers finger wagging is like almost trying 0:12:52.022 --> 0:12:54.102 to convince people that that's what was happening and we 0:12:54.102 --> 0:12:56.382 were all born into it. But they're two different things. 0:12:56.462 --> 0:12:56.862 I think. 0:12:56.982 --> 0:12:59.822 Do you think this has much to do with YouTube 0:12:59.862 --> 0:13:02.582 and sharing images of your children online? Because it's almost 0:13:02.582 --> 0:13:05.222 like people are trying to suggest see the type of 0:13:05.222 --> 0:13:07.862 people that profit off their children. I wonder if there's an. 0:13:07.782 --> 0:13:10.502 Element about I wonder if you guys are feeling defensive 0:13:10.742 --> 0:13:15.782 because you've profited off your children in some of your content. No, 0:13:15.862 --> 0:13:18.422 I'm joking, but to me, I didn't read it like that. 0:13:18.542 --> 0:13:23.102 To me, I read it that it was more it's 0:13:23.142 --> 0:13:26.102 all lies, and we suspected that it was all lies. 0:13:26.102 --> 0:13:28.702 And that's why I think there's glee, which is it 0:13:28.782 --> 0:13:32.462 all looks so, whether it's ballerin a farm or any 0:13:32.502 --> 0:13:35.262 of the other influencers Narah Smith. It all looks so 0:13:35.342 --> 0:13:40.542 picture perfect, but underneath the surface there's terrible, dark things happening, 0:13:41.302 --> 0:13:43.422 and it's like there's a glee, which is we knew 0:13:43.422 --> 0:13:44.862 it couldn't be as good as it looked. 0:13:45.302 --> 0:13:47.782 I think it's also almost a true crime element of 0:13:47.822 --> 0:13:51.702 there were science, so it's the online detective. 0:13:51.502 --> 0:13:53.782 The idea that it was happening under everyone's none. 0:13:53.822 --> 0:13:56.142 Yeah, because there were the sort of little things which, 0:13:56.182 --> 0:13:58.982 as you say, taken out of context, don't look you 0:13:59.062 --> 0:14:01.062 kind of go, oh, that's a bit harsh, but it's 0:14:01.142 --> 0:14:04.742 not a crime. But I worry that it will embolden 0:14:04.942 --> 0:14:09.942 the commenters and embolden the kind of online community that 0:14:10.102 --> 0:14:12.982 we all know can be. I remember sharing an image 0:14:12.982 --> 0:14:15.302 of Luna when she was a few months old and 0:14:15.382 --> 0:14:19.022 a comment basically suggesting that it was my fault she 0:14:19.102 --> 0:14:22.422 was so little because I wasn't feeding her properly. And 0:14:22.462 --> 0:14:26.342 this is the thing about like people watching any of 0:14:26.382 --> 0:14:28.862 your parenting, is that they're going to have an opinion 0:14:28.862 --> 0:14:29.302 about it. 0:14:29.342 --> 0:14:32.462 But aren't we learning that from this generation of kids 0:14:32.662 --> 0:14:35.062 who were put on the internet by their parents, And 0:14:35.982 --> 0:14:37.942 I should say none of us knew what we were doing. 0:14:38.022 --> 0:14:41.422 It just so happened that my kids escaped that era. 0:14:42.142 --> 0:14:44.182 Had they been born a few years later, or some 0:14:44.262 --> 0:14:46.302 of them a few years earlier, I would have done 0:14:46.502 --> 0:14:49.582 the same thing. Because it's like, if you're someone who 0:14:49.622 --> 0:14:53.102 lives online and part of the content that you make 0:14:53.342 --> 0:14:57.142 and monetize is about your life, you can't just pretend 0:14:57.142 --> 0:14:59.422 you don't have children. So I get that, but I 0:14:59.422 --> 0:15:01.702 think that what we're seeing now is that those children 0:15:01.742 --> 0:15:04.302 are old enough to go, hey, you know that thing 0:15:04.662 --> 0:15:05.662 that wasn't good for us. 0:15:05.742 --> 0:15:09.382 Yeah, But I reckon that we are unable to see 0:15:09.822 --> 0:15:12.262 as a spectrum. We have become so black and white 0:15:12.302 --> 0:15:14.742 about sharing an image of a child online that it's 0:15:14.782 --> 0:15:17.822 like you share an image and you're traumatizing them for life. 0:15:17.982 --> 0:15:21.262 There is a spectrum where it's like sharing a family photograph, 0:15:21.502 --> 0:15:25.902 child appears in video, making your children work full time 0:15:25.982 --> 0:15:28.902 for your content, and filming them at their worst moments 0:15:28.942 --> 0:15:32.782 when they're crying or tantruming or whatever, like, they are 0:15:33.462 --> 0:15:37.022 totally different things, and we seem to not understand that 0:15:37.102 --> 0:15:38.062 it's yeah, that it's. 0:15:37.942 --> 0:15:40.502 Not the same. Ruby Frank's daughter, who has written a 0:15:40.542 --> 0:15:43.022 memoir and who is also talking in this push to 0:15:43.062 --> 0:15:45.542 get this bill passed in Utah, which her dad is too, 0:15:46.262 --> 0:15:48.782 is very vocal about the fact that she feels very exploited, 0:15:48.902 --> 0:15:50.862 and she said, you know, she was her mum would 0:15:50.902 --> 0:15:53.462 film her bras shopping and put that online. She'd put 0:15:53.502 --> 0:15:56.862 all kinds of very sensitive teenage stuff up there. And 0:15:57.102 --> 0:15:59.262 I think, without questioning me or you're right, that there 0:15:59.342 --> 0:16:02.382 is a generation who've grown up and said hey, But 0:16:02.502 --> 0:16:06.102 as Jesse says, I don't think that's the same as 0:16:06.102 --> 0:16:08.862 somebody who just sometimes puts a bitture of them. Care no, 0:16:09.022 --> 0:16:10.782 but we are. I mean, you're right. But to your 0:16:11.062 --> 0:16:13.302 barber earlier on which is fair enough about you know, 0:16:13.342 --> 0:16:16.582 do you feel defensive? I think I probably do feel defensive. 0:16:16.662 --> 0:16:19.262 Not in any way do I feel like I want 0:16:19.302 --> 0:16:21.582 to defend a person like Ruby Frank who's abusing her 0:16:21.622 --> 0:16:24.382 children in the worst way possible. But I do want 0:16:24.422 --> 0:16:27.102 to be a little bit defensive about the idea that 0:16:27.422 --> 0:16:32.942 ever involving your children in online content is necessarily entirely negative. 0:16:33.022 --> 0:16:34.862 I don't think that's true. I think it feeds into 0:16:34.902 --> 0:16:36.822 one of the reasons why the wear of the dad's 0:16:36.942 --> 0:16:39.902 question is interesting, which is the people who are consuming 0:16:40.142 --> 0:16:42.462 very often a lot of parenting content on the internet, 0:16:42.542 --> 0:16:45.622 or women they're looking at other women doing it. And 0:16:45.822 --> 0:16:48.902 although it very often starts off with a I feel seen, 0:16:49.062 --> 0:16:52.022 thank god, my house is dirty like your houses. My 0:16:52.142 --> 0:16:54.702 kid won't eat vegetables like your kid won't eat vegetables, 0:16:55.102 --> 0:16:58.462 it also always morphs into a big stream of judgment, 0:16:58.702 --> 0:17:01.062 big stream of like, well, you know that child's top 0:17:01.102 --> 0:17:03.062 does look a bit dirty, and you're not feeding your 0:17:03.102 --> 0:17:06.182 child probably Jesse and whatever. I think that that's very 0:17:06.222 --> 0:17:10.342 toxic for the parent involved, and we know that if 0:17:10.341 --> 0:17:12.381 the child is exposed to that, that's terrible. But I 0:17:12.382 --> 0:17:14.702 don't think that everybody who's doing that on the internet 0:17:14.861 --> 0:17:16.382 isn't considering the outcome. 0:17:16.502 --> 0:17:19.061 No, and of course many of them are. You would 0:17:19.101 --> 0:17:22.181 hope that this is about apple kind of situation. But 0:17:22.262 --> 0:17:24.381 I think what's interesting also is part of this bill 0:17:24.462 --> 0:17:27.021 is that when the children become adults, they can request 0:17:27.022 --> 0:17:29.941 and all that content about them is taken down. And 0:17:30.022 --> 0:17:33.101 what I think that it speaks to is when we 0:17:33.182 --> 0:17:37.341 have children, we feel that their experiences are our experiences, 0:17:37.381 --> 0:17:39.782 and at what point do they become their own experiences? 0:17:39.821 --> 0:17:43.942 Like you exactly, you watch people talk about a child's 0:17:44.101 --> 0:17:48.502 medical condition or their behavior and it's all through the 0:17:48.581 --> 0:17:51.262 lens of how it affects that person as a mother, 0:17:51.302 --> 0:17:54.221 which I completely understand. But I think what we're becoming 0:17:54.262 --> 0:17:57.461 more aware now is that that person didn't necessarily consent 0:17:57.661 --> 0:17:59.581 to that. I don't mean, you know, when they're in 0:17:59.581 --> 0:18:02.022 a their photos on the internet, or they're in a 0:18:02.022 --> 0:18:05.101 little bit of sponsored content. I more mean that kind 0:18:05.182 --> 0:18:08.462 of vlogging turning your life into a reality show. 0:18:08.942 --> 0:18:12.302 It's just interesting to me how this conversation has almost 0:18:12.341 --> 0:18:16.901 totally excluded fathers like as participants in their children's lives. 0:18:16.982 --> 0:18:19.022 And I understand it to a degree because it is 0:18:19.141 --> 0:18:22.542 women who post a lot of this content and women 0:18:22.581 --> 0:18:25.742 follow women like that's totally the point. But I also 0:18:25.861 --> 0:18:28.621 think that we understand women to be in charge of 0:18:28.621 --> 0:18:32.621 parenting decisions, and so I wonder if this were reversed, 0:18:32.861 --> 0:18:35.742 it because of our children's will Exactly like, if a 0:18:35.821 --> 0:18:39.621 child is online, let's assume, unless it's Grimes and Elon Musk, 0:18:39.982 --> 0:18:42.901 let's assume that both parents have consented to that. But 0:18:43.061 --> 0:18:46.262 the judgment is always towards the mother, because it's your 0:18:46.341 --> 0:18:46.942 job to kicks. 0:18:47.182 --> 0:18:49.502 I think, I mean, I know what you're saying. I 0:18:49.502 --> 0:18:53.422 think that's slightly disingenuous in that there is in most 0:18:53.462 --> 0:18:56.861 households and most families there's divide and conquers. So the 0:18:56.901 --> 0:18:59.741 Internet and social media and knowing about all of that 0:19:00.141 --> 0:19:04.341 is seen as moreover something that women generally know a 0:19:04.341 --> 0:19:06.942 lot more about. You know, men on social media tend 0:19:06.982 --> 0:19:09.902 to either not be on it or their lurkers men 0:19:10.022 --> 0:19:10.701 rarely post. 0:19:11.101 --> 0:19:11.461 I don't know. 0:19:11.542 --> 0:19:13.101 I think that that's a decision that you make and 0:19:13.101 --> 0:19:14.902 if you're going to the bottom line of the family 0:19:15.101 --> 0:19:17.941 like this man, Look, Kevin, there is no you know, 0:19:18.022 --> 0:19:19.821 there's evidence that he had absolutely nothing to do with 0:19:19.861 --> 0:19:21.061 this Kevin Frank in terms. 0:19:20.901 --> 0:19:23.341 Of the abuse of the abuse. Yeah, but he was 0:19:23.422 --> 0:19:25.341 he was very involved in the vlogging. 0:19:25.581 --> 0:19:28.222 Yeah yeah, And he's come out and obviously said that 0:19:28.262 --> 0:19:31.502 he has regrets. But I just note that at no 0:19:31.621 --> 0:19:34.861 point did everyone kind of go He was also putting 0:19:34.861 --> 0:19:36.942 a camera in front of their face and also endorsing 0:19:36.942 --> 0:19:39.182 the parenting style that they were both practicing. 0:19:39.302 --> 0:19:40.981 And there are a lot of Yeah, and there are 0:19:41.022 --> 0:19:43.061 a lot of dad influences now too. They have a 0:19:43.061 --> 0:19:45.461 lot of female followers. I think this is the modern 0:19:45.782 --> 0:19:48.902 example of the stage parent, right, And there have always 0:19:48.982 --> 0:19:52.542 been extreme versions of stage parenting that have veered towards 0:19:52.982 --> 0:19:56.581 pushing your kid really hard exploitation and pay the bills 0:19:56.581 --> 0:19:59.782 for the family exploitation, working them over time. This is 0:19:59.861 --> 0:20:01.262 like the dark side of that. 0:20:02.502 --> 0:20:05.861 After the break, why everyone is feeling a bit aspirational, 0:20:05.982 --> 0:20:07.302 including Megan Michael. 0:20:14.942 --> 0:20:16.942 It might sound like I'm in his studio in Inner 0:20:16.942 --> 0:20:19.821 Sydney at the moment, but mentally I am replying on 0:20:19.901 --> 0:20:22.061 a taste for sun loungers Mui. 0:20:23.182 --> 0:20:25.341 I haven't started watching White Lotus yet, so is it 0:20:25.462 --> 0:20:26.542 very kind of pictureque? 0:20:26.542 --> 0:20:28.741 Well, you've seen the other two, right, Yeah? So the 0:20:28.782 --> 0:20:31.421 first White Lotus was a set in Hawaii at the 0:20:31.422 --> 0:20:34.421 Four Seasons of Maui. The second one was set at 0:20:34.462 --> 0:20:37.341 another Four Seasons in Sicily in Italy. This one is 0:20:37.381 --> 0:20:40.022 actually filmed at three different resorts in Thailand, one of 0:20:40.022 --> 0:20:43.701 which is the Four Seasons Samui and yes. 0:20:43.901 --> 0:20:46.422 I feel like a holiday to be beautiful. 0:20:46.821 --> 0:20:49.181 Of course, as soon as the first episode of season 0:20:49.182 --> 0:20:52.461 three dropped last week, google search is for where the 0:20:52.502 --> 0:20:53.702 hell is that filmed? 0:20:53.861 --> 0:20:56.462 And can I go there? Skyrocketed, And the truth of 0:20:56.502 --> 0:20:58.661 it is it's second only to why the hell did 0:20:58.702 --> 0:21:02.101 they change the theme music? Which was iconic. But we 0:21:02.141 --> 0:21:02.621 will move on. 0:21:02.742 --> 0:21:04.701 We will move on. We will learn to move on 0:21:04.861 --> 0:21:08.141 and grow and change. The hotels now in the white 0:21:08.182 --> 0:21:11.581 Lotus world actually by into that. You can buy Whiteladus packages, 0:21:11.702 --> 0:21:14.101 you can get deals, you can go online at the 0:21:14.101 --> 0:21:17.061 moment and you can buy a white Loadus fluffy white robe. 0:21:17.381 --> 0:21:21.141 You can buy white Loaders fluffy slippers. There are Instagram 0:21:21.222 --> 0:21:24.022 accounts with all the shoppable links to all the clothes 0:21:24.061 --> 0:21:26.542 the resort war that the women wear on the show, 0:21:27.182 --> 0:21:30.061 and everything in white Loadus land, it seems now is shoppable, 0:21:30.061 --> 0:21:33.502 which is not unusual because a lot of TV has 0:21:33.542 --> 0:21:37.702 gone that way. You can buy a appropriately named skinny 0:21:37.742 --> 0:21:41.022 water bottle from Emily in Paris. You can buy a 0:21:41.101 --> 0:21:44.141 Stranger Things motorbike helmet. You can buy all that stuff, which. 0:21:44.061 --> 0:21:47.022 We were discussing just last week that Netflix is about 0:21:47.061 --> 0:21:47.981 to get in on this. 0:21:48.141 --> 0:21:52.341 Big time with with Love Megan, which widely assumed is 0:21:52.381 --> 0:21:53.782 that you're going to be able to buy a lot 0:21:53.821 --> 0:21:56.022 of the things that are in that show. But I 0:21:56.061 --> 0:21:58.581 have a question specifically about the white load of thing, 0:21:58.621 --> 0:22:01.701 but broadly about aspiration, because if you watched any of 0:22:01.742 --> 0:22:04.622 the white loaduses, particularly the first one, but any of them, 0:22:05.022 --> 0:22:08.182 you'll know that actually, although it's very lovely to look at, 0:22:08.621 --> 0:22:12.462 it is actually a high level social satire about how 0:22:12.581 --> 0:22:16.262 rich people going to fancy resorts around the world are 0:22:16.302 --> 0:22:19.861 actually very problematic. It gives both perspectives to the people 0:22:19.861 --> 0:22:21.542 who work there and the people who stay there. And 0:22:21.621 --> 0:22:25.502 very often the people who work there, I hate truly 0:22:25.581 --> 0:22:28.942 awful people who are staying there. Sometimes there's murder involved. 0:22:29.141 --> 0:22:30.661 And in the first one there was a lot of 0:22:30.702 --> 0:22:34.542 commentary about the impact on Indigenous communities. There's always a 0:22:34.581 --> 0:22:37.981 lot of social commentary in those shows, and I find 0:22:38.022 --> 0:22:42.102 it really interesting that we love all that and then 0:22:42.141 --> 0:22:43.981 we go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I just want to 0:22:43.982 --> 0:22:45.861 go there. This spar looks amazing. Where can I book? 0:22:45.982 --> 0:22:50.222 It's like our aspiration completely overrides the context. 0:22:50.381 --> 0:22:52.302 We want their holiday, but we don't want to be. 0:22:52.381 --> 0:22:54.862 Them, but we will be them when we're on their holiday. 0:22:54.901 --> 0:22:59.262 Oh no, because we don't see ourselves as the leisure class. 0:22:59.502 --> 0:23:01.821 We do not see ourselves as that, And in fact 0:23:02.341 --> 0:23:05.981 there's this contrast between even like I keep thinking about 0:23:06.022 --> 0:23:08.901 the Kim Kardashian of the world, right keeping up with 0:23:08.942 --> 0:23:11.782 the Kardashian ended. I think last year I can't even tell. 0:23:11.702 --> 0:23:14.421 Them it's on again against It's not called keeping up 0:23:14.422 --> 0:23:16.981 the it's just called the Kardashians on at the. 0:23:16.982 --> 0:23:21.581 Moment, totally fizzled out in terms of interest. 0:23:21.262 --> 0:23:23.461 Cultural in terms of cultural. 0:23:23.182 --> 0:23:26.101 Relevance, it has totally fizzled out because I think there's 0:23:26.141 --> 0:23:29.061 something very on the nose about the Kardashians right now, 0:23:29.222 --> 0:23:34.181 the conspicuous consumption of it, that luxury goods. I don't 0:23:34.302 --> 0:23:37.742 think that that's what we aspire to anymore, and there's 0:23:37.782 --> 0:23:40.542 a real kind of revolt against it. 0:23:40.581 --> 0:23:42.982 I don't think you're right. I wish you were right 0:23:43.022 --> 0:23:44.741 about that, But I think if you look at the 0:23:44.782 --> 0:23:46.742 culture in America at the moment, there is a lot 0:23:46.782 --> 0:23:49.622 of aspiration towards extreme wealth. There's a lot of it. 0:23:49.742 --> 0:23:52.101 I think the ratings of the Kardashians tell us something. 0:23:52.141 --> 0:23:55.901 I think the fact that they are not cool. Like 0:23:55.942 --> 0:23:57.821 if someone told you that they were a massive fan 0:23:57.821 --> 0:23:59.821 of Kim Kardashian, you'd be very confused. 0:23:59.901 --> 0:24:00.101 Yeah. 0:24:00.101 --> 0:24:02.901 But also that show, I think it's just morphed because 0:24:02.982 --> 0:24:05.381 the Kardashians has died for lots of reasons, one of 0:24:05.422 --> 0:24:07.861 which is that you're now expected to watch like with 0:24:07.982 --> 0:24:11.141 baited breath to see Kim Kardashian go to that fashion 0:24:11.182 --> 0:24:13.422 show that you've already seen her go to fifty five 0:24:13.462 --> 0:24:16.021 times on your socials by then. And I think there 0:24:16.101 --> 0:24:18.142 is some truth to the aspirational thing, but I think 0:24:18.182 --> 0:24:21.102 it's kind of just shifted a bit because now it 0:24:21.182 --> 0:24:23.581 is this we want to buy all the things that 0:24:23.621 --> 0:24:26.581 all the famous people have. One of the biggest obviously 0:24:26.782 --> 0:24:28.941 shows on YouTube is about giving away lots of money, 0:24:28.942 --> 0:24:32.022 making people into millionaires. Everybody wants that, Like, I don't 0:24:32.061 --> 0:24:37.061 think the hunger for money status things has gone anywhere. 0:24:37.702 --> 0:24:39.782 In fact, I think that something like the White Lotus 0:24:39.782 --> 0:24:41.502 and how we kind of love to be in on 0:24:41.542 --> 0:24:43.422 the joke of laughing at the rich people, but really 0:24:43.462 --> 0:24:45.742 we just want to be on their holiday kind of 0:24:45.782 --> 0:24:46.821 says that we haven't moved on. 0:24:46.861 --> 0:24:49.021 I don't know. I don't think it's as complicated as that. 0:24:49.101 --> 0:24:51.141 I think it's just like that looks like a really 0:24:51.222 --> 0:24:54.262 nice place to go and have a massage, or to 0:24:54.381 --> 0:24:57.661 go and have a swim, hopefully without any bodies in 0:24:57.702 --> 0:25:01.941 the pool. But that idea of there's no longer a 0:25:01.982 --> 0:25:05.542 barrier between what I see and I want to buy it, 0:25:05.621 --> 0:25:09.502 and that's what influencer culture is right because it's affiliate. 0:25:09.861 --> 0:25:12.542 I can just click on whatever this influencer is wearing, 0:25:12.661 --> 0:25:15.821 what products they're using. This is just an extension of that, 0:25:15.861 --> 0:25:18.341 which is why Netflix is actually a really logical partner 0:25:18.341 --> 0:25:21.542 for Megan Markle in terms of you watch it and 0:25:21.581 --> 0:25:22.982 then you click straight away. 0:25:23.182 --> 0:25:26.302 You say that there's no barrier. But the massive barrier 0:25:26.462 --> 0:25:29.182 that exists in a way that it didn't even ten 0:25:29.262 --> 0:25:31.741 years ago is the cost of living adress, and I 0:25:31.742 --> 0:25:34.982 think that that is kind of the ghost haunting all 0:25:34.982 --> 0:25:35.181 of this. 0:25:35.381 --> 0:25:37.461 But that's the whole point. So that you can't go 0:25:37.742 --> 0:25:40.141 to the White Lotus, you can't go to Thailand, but 0:25:40.182 --> 0:25:42.341 I can buy a little robe, or I can buy 0:25:42.381 --> 0:25:45.621 that little kaftan that she's wearing all the sandals, or 0:25:45.661 --> 0:25:46.382 a scented can. 0:25:46.581 --> 0:25:49.222 So I reckon that the aspiration has morphed, and I 0:25:49.302 --> 0:25:51.981 think it's smaller, Like I do think that there's a 0:25:52.061 --> 0:25:55.101 smaller world, Like I'm thinking about the tradwife because that 0:25:55.502 --> 0:25:59.542 has become very aspirational, but that's cooking your own sourdough, 0:25:59.742 --> 0:26:03.782 Like there's also something that is doable. Of course, they're all. 0:26:03.621 --> 0:26:06.102 Like that's about the aspiration of time, having a lot 0:26:06.101 --> 0:26:09.222 of time, exactly. And there's something called the Lipstick index 0:26:09.262 --> 0:26:11.341 or the Maine index, which is when the cost of 0:26:11.381 --> 0:26:13.942 living is high and people are struggling or there's a recession, 0:26:14.381 --> 0:26:17.022 the sales of small luxury goods will go up. So 0:26:17.101 --> 0:26:20.222 lipsticks used to be magazines, little things that you can buy. 0:26:20.542 --> 0:26:23.661 And that's why it's no accident that tmu's slogan is 0:26:23.702 --> 0:26:26.782 shopped like a billionaire without spending much money. And it's 0:26:26.782 --> 0:26:30.662 the same reason why the big designer houses like Chanelle 0:26:30.821 --> 0:26:35.302 or Duck Chaange, Gabana, they have fragrance businesses because ninety 0:26:35.341 --> 0:26:37.581 nine percent of people could never buy anything from Chanel, 0:26:37.621 --> 0:26:40.421 but they can afford a fragrance. So this idea of 0:26:40.422 --> 0:26:42.142 being able to buy a little bit of jam from 0:26:42.141 --> 0:26:44.741 Megan Markle, of being able to buy a white Loatus candle, 0:26:45.222 --> 0:26:47.661 or you know, in succession, it was about the stealth wealth. 0:26:47.901 --> 0:26:50.621 I can buy a little bit of that lifestyle that 0:26:50.621 --> 0:26:51.582 I could never afford. 0:26:51.742 --> 0:26:53.902 It's interesting because and I was listening to you talk 0:26:53.901 --> 0:26:56.662 about Megan last week, of course because I was off 0:26:56.702 --> 0:26:58.741 the show, but I was like, oh my god, what 0:26:58.742 --> 0:26:59.262 did you mean? 0:26:59.341 --> 0:27:02.821 Can we just break to ask what you thought about her? Announcement. 0:27:03.022 --> 0:27:06.341 I was very excited about the announcement. I think that 0:27:06.462 --> 0:27:09.981 a lot of the nitpicking about the copyright stuff is 0:27:10.182 --> 0:27:15.222 typical Meghan bashing, but also just astounding that they continue 0:27:15.262 --> 0:27:19.221 to apparently keep kicking such own goals. But on Meghan World, 0:27:19.901 --> 0:27:21.821 you said on that on the show last week, and 0:27:21.861 --> 0:27:24.142 you're very right that the esthetic. I know I say 0:27:24.182 --> 0:27:26.461 it wrong, but I can't help it. Just just go 0:27:26.542 --> 0:27:30.022 with me, just becol people like you that the esthetic 0:27:30.262 --> 0:27:33.262 that Meghan Michael is flogging or it was apparently going 0:27:33.302 --> 0:27:35.902 to be flogging on with Love Meghan and with as 0:27:35.942 --> 0:27:39.621 ever feels a bit dated now. She posted a vision board. 0:27:39.661 --> 0:27:42.262 Speaking of aspiration, she posted a vision board this week, 0:27:42.302 --> 0:27:44.061 and I'm just so happy she's back on Instagram. But 0:27:44.061 --> 0:27:47.102 I may have already say that, I'm sorry, I'll stop talking. 0:27:47.141 --> 0:27:48.542 You'll never get boring. 0:27:48.661 --> 0:27:51.022 One of the things that she posted this week is 0:27:51.101 --> 0:27:54.181 her vision board for we assume for with Love Meghan, right, 0:27:54.702 --> 0:27:57.621 and it's just a whole lot of it is just 0:27:57.661 --> 0:27:59.101 a whole lot of Easter eggs. So there are a 0:27:59.141 --> 0:28:02.022 lot of literal memes or what memes used to be 0:28:02.901 --> 0:28:06.341 from her tig days of like these kind of nafts. 0:28:06.061 --> 0:28:08.141 Like you can't please everyone, You're not a Jarrevan. 0:28:08.302 --> 0:28:10.822 That's all exactly that kind of stuff with a cursive 0:28:10.942 --> 0:28:13.701 font and then a little tig thing she like, it's 0:28:13.742 --> 0:28:16.782 twenty fifteen. But I think it's back. This is my point, 0:28:16.901 --> 0:28:19.542 right because also on the corner of that vision board, 0:28:19.542 --> 0:28:22.462 because don't think I haven't seen it many times, what 0:28:22.621 --> 0:28:24.341 else is on it? There's a flat lay or what 0:28:24.742 --> 0:28:30.341 else is so a pancake with a face made from 0:28:30.341 --> 0:28:33.382 bacon and bananas. This is very exciting. There are fabrics, 0:28:33.422 --> 0:28:36.581 watches so whimsical that are definitely not from clothes because 0:28:36.621 --> 0:28:38.741 she's not allowed to sell those allowed to sell clothes 0:28:38.822 --> 0:28:42.342 as per copyrights. There's a very cute illustration of her 0:28:42.542 --> 0:28:44.902 and her man friend Harry and English coats. There's a 0:28:44.982 --> 0:28:47.382 flat lay of a lot of what are presumably are 0:28:47.382 --> 0:28:50.022 going to be the recipes from the show. They could 0:28:50.142 --> 0:28:52.982 be from the whole pantry, from the app, the Bell 0:28:53.022 --> 0:28:54.181 Gibson app that we've. 0:28:54.062 --> 0:28:57.462 All just seen, yes again around that time. 0:28:57.582 --> 0:29:01.941 So beautiful, looking, healthy, gorgeous. I mean, there's only so 0:29:02.022 --> 0:29:04.941 many ways to food style, right, but they look very 0:29:05.022 --> 0:29:07.542 much of the time, and I just think it's back. 0:29:07.702 --> 0:29:09.502 I think that level of aspiration, and probably for a 0:29:09.582 --> 0:29:11.142 lot of the reasons that you two were just discussing, 0:29:11.262 --> 0:29:13.862 like a bit of accessible joy, a little bit of 0:29:14.142 --> 0:29:16.342 trying to hold onto a portion of control in an 0:29:16.422 --> 0:29:17.382 uncontrollable world. 0:29:17.742 --> 0:29:19.622 Stewart two point zero that that kind of. 0:29:20.222 --> 0:29:23.421 Domestic aspiration as well, as you know, the white Lotus 0:29:23.502 --> 0:29:26.222 level is kind of back in fashion. Is it whimsy? 0:29:26.462 --> 0:29:28.782 Because you talk about the things that you'll be able 0:29:28.822 --> 0:29:30.701 to buy? I assume you probably won't be able to 0:29:30.702 --> 0:29:33.142 buy the ice cubes with the tiny little flowers. 0:29:32.782 --> 0:29:35.662 But anyone can make that tis isn't it. You can 0:29:35.742 --> 0:29:38.462 go out in your street, steal. 0:29:38.222 --> 0:29:40.622 Some flowers from someone else's guarded. 0:29:40.302 --> 0:29:42.502 Forage and put them in some water, and I will 0:29:42.582 --> 0:29:42.902 be free. 0:29:43.022 --> 0:29:45.622 My neighbor has a sign saying do not steal my hydrangers. 0:29:45.742 --> 0:29:46.421 I've thought about it. 0:29:47.342 --> 0:29:48.782 She's like, I know what you want to do with 0:29:48.822 --> 0:29:50.782 these pedals. I have one more question though, for me, 0:29:50.862 --> 0:29:54.222 a business brain. Back to the white lotus right, there 0:29:54.262 --> 0:29:57.302 would have been a time where an amazing brand like 0:29:57.382 --> 0:30:00.222 The Four Seasons would not want to be associated with 0:30:00.342 --> 0:30:04.582 a show where their staff were depicted taking drugs, sex, 0:30:04.982 --> 0:30:10.102 beating up people, getting murdered, where a fancy brand would 0:30:10.102 --> 0:30:12.941 have been like not near my brand, please. But the 0:30:13.022 --> 0:30:15.862 four seasons, obviously after the success of these shows, are 0:30:15.942 --> 0:30:19.182 leaning in I'm going, fine, we'll go with it. Very 0:30:19.222 --> 0:30:21.022 savvy marketing, but a bit of a shift. 0:30:21.542 --> 0:30:24.142 Not really when you think of that, these are basically 0:30:24.302 --> 0:30:26.822 like infomercials because the whole point of the show is 0:30:26.942 --> 0:30:29.661 to show when we check the plot out, it's just 0:30:30.022 --> 0:30:33.421 an infomercial. Turn off the volume, and it's just looks 0:30:33.782 --> 0:30:36.782 like a fantastic ad for you please find the murder, 0:30:36.902 --> 0:30:39.421 which are absolutely sold out. And I think the other 0:30:39.502 --> 0:30:43.102 thing about why everything's shoppable is that it's really expensive 0:30:43.222 --> 0:30:46.942 to make TV and film and there are so many 0:30:47.062 --> 0:30:50.142 challenges and by doing that, not only is it an 0:30:50.222 --> 0:30:53.782 extra revenue stream for the creators and there's money to 0:30:53.862 --> 0:30:57.542 be made, but then there's also product placement. And apparently 0:30:57.622 --> 0:30:59.142 that I was reading that the White Lotus they were 0:30:59.182 --> 0:31:00.902 talking about season four was going to be in Norway, 0:31:01.062 --> 0:31:03.702 and that's just fallen through because one of the things 0:31:03.742 --> 0:31:07.822 that they demand from the countries is massive tax breaks 0:31:07.902 --> 0:31:10.902 and grants and all of those things, because those are 0:31:10.942 --> 0:31:12.782 expensive shows to make and you need all the help 0:31:12.782 --> 0:31:13.142 that you can. 0:31:13.142 --> 0:31:17.981 Get in case he missed it. Last Thursday, billionaire Clive Palmer, 0:31:18.182 --> 0:31:21.502 former head of the United Australia Party, launched a brand 0:31:21.622 --> 0:31:23.622 new political party. Did you guys say this? 0:31:24.062 --> 0:31:27.661 I did. I saw the hats, shoppable shoppable hats. 0:31:28.142 --> 0:31:30.342 I did not know that Clive Palmer was still a thing. 0:31:30.542 --> 0:31:35.422 Okay, So it is called trump Et of Patriots. 0:31:35.462 --> 0:31:40.302 Trump Trumpet, Trumpety Trumpet the the oh did there? Yes? 0:31:40.422 --> 0:31:41.221 Can you see what he did? 0:31:41.302 --> 0:31:41.941 What a genius? 0:31:42.142 --> 0:31:42.342 Yeah? 0:31:42.862 --> 0:31:46.701 It promises to make Australia. 0:31:46.742 --> 0:31:50.502 Trump again, great gaat again, My goodness. 0:31:50.542 --> 0:31:53.902 Sorry, he wants to drain the swamp of Canberra. What 0:31:54.022 --> 0:31:56.701 was his last party called United Australia. He's had a 0:31:56.742 --> 0:31:57.422 few now. 0:31:57.422 --> 0:31:59.502 It's like, we're not even going to pretend to United Australia. 0:31:59.542 --> 0:32:02.421 Were Actually that's going to lean in to dividing every country. 0:32:02.542 --> 0:32:05.542 What actually happened is that he lost a high court 0:32:05.582 --> 0:32:08.502 bid to reregister United Australia. So I needed a new net. Okay, 0:32:08.622 --> 0:32:11.622 bitlight megants who. 0:32:11.542 --> 0:32:14.501 He's calling it the as I'm quite far. 0:32:15.422 --> 0:32:18.342 He wants to ban transathletes from women's sport. Basically, all 0:32:18.422 --> 0:32:22.702 his ideas are imported from Trump's America. Is this something 0:32:23.182 --> 0:32:25.382 we should be worried about, like, are we about to 0:32:25.502 --> 0:32:27.862 turn into what's happened over there? 0:32:27.902 --> 0:32:29.701 And is this our republican part I don't think so 0:32:29.822 --> 0:32:32.062 everyone keeps saying that, and it's like, Oh, Dutton's going 0:32:32.142 --> 0:32:35.062 to go so Trumpian and he's going to do culture wars. 0:32:35.302 --> 0:32:39.062 He's already said he's not. Now politicians are politicians. But 0:32:39.582 --> 0:32:42.261 we've spoken on the show before after we all freaked 0:32:42.302 --> 0:32:45.462 out when Trump got back in that the reason that 0:32:45.582 --> 0:32:49.661 Australian politics will never become as extreme is because of 0:32:49.742 --> 0:32:53.342 compulsory voting. And this sounds really nerdy, but it's not 0:32:53.582 --> 0:32:56.582 that people don't care as much or that there aren't 0:32:56.582 --> 0:32:59.342 as many people here that will be attracted to extreme things. 0:32:59.462 --> 0:33:02.942 But in countries where voting isn't compulsory, it's like the algorithm. 0:33:03.022 --> 0:33:06.502 It's literally the same thing. The issues and the policies 0:33:06.582 --> 0:33:08.782 and the vibe that gets people out to vote has 0:33:08.862 --> 0:33:09.461 to be extreme. 0:33:09.702 --> 0:33:11.542 It's what I remember Holly saying that it has to 0:33:11.622 --> 0:33:15.221 be presented as existential as this is the last election, 0:33:15.542 --> 0:33:16.502 get off your bum. 0:33:16.462 --> 0:33:20.222 And whereas in Australia, in most countries the vast majority 0:33:20.262 --> 0:33:22.782 of people are in the middle are basically centrist. They're 0:33:22.822 --> 0:33:25.382 not extreme left or extreme right. We also don't have 0:33:25.542 --> 0:33:26.302 everyone vote. 0:33:26.582 --> 0:33:28.862 Yeah, we also don't have the far right component. We 0:33:28.942 --> 0:33:31.662 don't have fifty states. I think that that totally changes 0:33:31.862 --> 0:33:35.902 our like we're obsessed with American politics culturally, I think. 0:33:36.382 --> 0:33:39.782 But it is naive to suggest that it is going 0:33:39.902 --> 0:33:42.622 to sort of infiltrate. I think how this. 0:33:42.742 --> 0:33:43.742 Election is run. 0:33:44.702 --> 0:33:46.782 I think that this not so sure. You know, you 0:33:46.902 --> 0:33:49.862 know what it might infiltrate. It doesn't work. I do 0:33:50.022 --> 0:33:52.382 not think it works. And let's remember that Clive Palmer, 0:33:52.382 --> 0:33:55.421 who has already run on make Australia great Again since 0:33:55.542 --> 0:33:58.302 twenty sixteen, are worked for Trump. He spent more than 0:33:58.302 --> 0:34:00.982 one hundred and twenty million dollars to secure one seat 0:34:01.182 --> 0:34:01.702 in parliament. 0:34:01.742 --> 0:34:02.662 He's just not the vibe. 0:34:02.862 --> 0:34:04.342 He's not the vibe. 0:34:04.422 --> 0:34:07.502 The most Trumpian thing about Clive Palmer in many ways 0:34:07.782 --> 0:34:10.262 is his exaggeration of his own success right because he 0:34:10.382 --> 0:34:12.462 is a very rich man. He is a proper billionaire. 0:34:12.542 --> 0:34:16.301 He's not pretending. But he has been trying to win 0:34:16.702 --> 0:34:20.822 serious Australian political influence for a decade and he has failed. 0:34:20.942 --> 0:34:24.622 Clive Palmer, Yeah, Clive Palmer has, and so he would 0:34:24.701 --> 0:34:26.701 have to go much much harder at it than he 0:34:26.902 --> 0:34:30.181 is at the moment with his trumpet whatever, I mean, 0:34:30.261 --> 0:34:35.901 god trumpet of patriots. But I'm a very strong It's 0:34:35.902 --> 0:34:37.661 so funny because when I came here from England, which 0:34:37.701 --> 0:34:39.461 is a very long time ago now, and I thought 0:34:39.502 --> 0:34:43.821 that mandatory voting was unbelievable, Like my head nearly fell off. 0:34:43.862 --> 0:34:45.421 I was like that it was bad. Yeah, I've never 0:34:45.542 --> 0:34:47.301 even heard of it. I've never heard of such a thing. 0:34:47.342 --> 0:34:49.062 There aren't very many places you to have it. 0:34:49.102 --> 0:34:50.861 An American in this horrified and. 0:34:50.902 --> 0:34:53.142 I actually thought it was probably quite bad for politics 0:34:53.181 --> 0:34:56.302 because I used to think, oh, you know, people aren't informed, 0:34:56.342 --> 0:34:57.982 but they have to vote. You know, they don't care, 0:34:58.062 --> 0:35:00.582 but they have to vote. And now thirty years down 0:35:00.622 --> 0:35:02.902 the line, I've been here nearly thirty years, I'm like, 0:35:03.542 --> 0:35:06.661 that's great. The fact that you don't have to exercise 0:35:06.701 --> 0:35:08.942 the edges exactly how you just explained it is brilliant. 0:35:09.542 --> 0:35:12.901 But I don't think there is any argument that there 0:35:13.062 --> 0:35:15.341 is a lot of hate to be made from dividing people. 0:35:15.462 --> 0:35:18.622 And in Australia we do have similar divisions between the 0:35:19.181 --> 0:35:23.462 metro people and the regional people. Country Australia, which is 0:35:23.502 --> 0:35:25.902 the real Australia. Who are the real Australians? And we 0:35:26.062 --> 0:35:30.381 saw it in the campaign for the Indigenous referendum. Voice 0:35:30.422 --> 0:35:34.382 to Parliament working those divisions can be quite successful. So, 0:35:34.502 --> 0:35:36.741 although I agree with you, Jesse, I don't think that 0:35:36.942 --> 0:35:40.781 Palmer's the vibe. I'm not quite so optimistic that we're 0:35:40.862 --> 0:35:42.222 not susceptible to that division. 0:35:42.542 --> 0:35:45.301 The election is set to be announced soon. There's been 0:35:45.382 --> 0:35:47.261 rumors that it's going to be announced any day and 0:35:47.342 --> 0:35:49.181 that maybe the election will be before Easter. 0:35:49.342 --> 0:35:51.582 You know what I'm worried about very selfishly, Well, if 0:35:51.622 --> 0:35:53.302 it's on the day we do one of our shows, 0:35:53.622 --> 0:35:55.821 I mean we will have time to go and vote. 0:35:57.102 --> 0:35:59.221 What if the result comes in while we're on stageh 0:35:59.382 --> 0:36:00.261 that not just be fun? 0:36:00.582 --> 0:36:00.821 Okay? 0:36:01.302 --> 0:36:03.181 Could we be likely sales out of bell Crab like 0:36:03.261 --> 0:36:05.702 on the stage calling it Yeah, yeah. 0:36:05.582 --> 0:36:07.942 We will bags you be Anthony Green Jesse. 0:36:10.181 --> 0:36:13.742 In a moment. There are seven different types of Flakes, 0:36:14.181 --> 0:36:14.741 which one is. 0:36:14.781 --> 0:36:18.981 Maya one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every 0:36:19.062 --> 0:36:23.382 Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the 0:36:23.422 --> 0:36:25.022 link at the show notes to get us in your 0:36:25.062 --> 0:36:28.142 ears five days a week, and a huge thank you 0:36:28.342 --> 0:36:30.142 to all our current subscribers. 0:36:36.422 --> 0:36:40.261 Counseling plans is so hot right now. Last week I 0:36:40.422 --> 0:36:42.502 tried to cancel a dinner because it was raining. 0:36:42.902 --> 0:36:43.422 How did that go? 0:36:44.982 --> 0:36:47.542 The person I tried to cancel told me that I 0:36:47.661 --> 0:36:50.462 was pathetic and did you go? I went good and 0:36:50.542 --> 0:36:53.742 I had a great time. Glad I didn't cancel. Everyone's lonely. 0:36:53.862 --> 0:36:55.821 But when it comes to actually leaving the house, how 0:36:55.862 --> 0:36:58.142 come nobody can be bothered to follow through on the 0:36:58.261 --> 0:37:01.102 arrangement they made in a flood of social enthusiasm last 0:37:01.142 --> 0:37:05.822 week after their second coffee. Stylus dot com recently posted 0:37:05.862 --> 0:37:10.262 a story by writer Shahed Azadi about the psychology behind 0:37:10.582 --> 0:37:13.342 the seven different types of flake, and I guarantee that 0:37:13.382 --> 0:37:16.062 you will recognize yourself or the flakes in your life 0:37:16.142 --> 0:37:19.821 from the following list. First one, the relationship flake. This 0:37:19.982 --> 0:37:23.302 is the kind of flake that cancels because of reasons 0:37:23.382 --> 0:37:26.582 or plans with their partner. Their partner will always come first. 0:37:26.902 --> 0:37:28.342 I find that flake very annoying. 0:37:28.502 --> 0:37:29.422 Yeah, strange. 0:37:29.582 --> 0:37:31.902 Second type is the work flake. They're always working in. 0:37:31.982 --> 0:37:33.341 Work will always be prioritized. 0:37:33.382 --> 0:37:34.301 I'm sure we've all been that. 0:37:34.982 --> 0:37:38.022 The last minute flake. This is my jam. They have 0:37:38.181 --> 0:37:41.062 something called present bias, so they commit to plans when 0:37:41.102 --> 0:37:44.102 they feel excited and like it's a good idea, but 0:37:44.181 --> 0:37:46.382 then they struggle with those plans when they're faced with 0:37:46.462 --> 0:37:48.781 the immediate cognitive load of following. 0:37:48.502 --> 0:37:50.542 Through on the You know what's great about the last 0:37:50.582 --> 0:37:53.542 minute flake is that sometimes if I'm at a social 0:37:53.582 --> 0:37:56.102 event where me is meant to come, I never think 0:37:56.142 --> 0:37:58.301 she's gonna come. I think she's going to last minute flake, 0:37:58.701 --> 0:38:01.301 and then sometimes she just turns up and it's like 0:38:01.382 --> 0:38:03.982 a wonderful surprise. I remember when we were going to 0:38:04.062 --> 0:38:05.741 something at the Opera House and we were having dinner 0:38:05.781 --> 0:38:08.221 before and I was like, Mia is never coming to 0:38:08.302 --> 0:38:11.701 this restaurant. Too many steps, too many steps, too much, 0:38:12.062 --> 0:38:13.901 she will never find a park, it's not going to happen. 0:38:14.102 --> 0:38:15.301 And then she just materialized. 0:38:15.302 --> 0:38:17.142 It was like a little tree. I have a lot 0:38:17.181 --> 0:38:19.862 of stern words with myself because I'm trying to deflake 0:38:20.022 --> 0:38:23.261 and I'm trying to be more present, so I've got 0:38:23.342 --> 0:38:26.301 like a show up thing anyway. Number four this is 0:38:26.302 --> 0:38:29.661 also sometimes me the forgetful flake. This flake relies on 0:38:29.822 --> 0:38:32.142 the other person either forgetting that you've made the plan, 0:38:32.822 --> 0:38:36.022 or hoping that the planned hangout is forgotten so that 0:38:36.542 --> 0:38:39.862 no excuses are necessary. Preemptive flake is someone who's so 0:38:40.062 --> 0:38:43.102 proceeds of bailing a few days out they start complaining 0:38:43.181 --> 0:38:46.502 of feeling tired, run down, or busy at work. That's 0:38:46.582 --> 0:38:49.622 not me, because that's someone with a lot of just 0:38:49.741 --> 0:38:53.381 say no yes. I think this is possibly you two 0:38:53.462 --> 0:38:56.821 definitely number six the people pleasing flake, and this is 0:38:56.862 --> 0:38:58.941 people who say yes to plans to make everyone happy, 0:38:58.982 --> 0:39:00.221 but there's no way they can do it all, so 0:39:00.302 --> 0:39:01.302 they have to flake. 0:39:01.502 --> 0:39:04.901 Yeah. So I will say yes in the moment. Two 0:39:04.982 --> 0:39:05.901 plans on Monday night. 0:39:06.102 --> 0:39:11.022 Yes, and then I go, hmmm, something to work that. 0:39:11.422 --> 0:39:13.582 So you'll say yes because you don't want to disappoint 0:39:13.622 --> 0:39:16.422 someone in the moment. And sometimes do you always know 0:39:16.542 --> 0:39:17.701 that you're going to cancel before it? 0:39:18.022 --> 0:39:18.701 Yes, you do. 0:39:18.942 --> 0:39:21.181 I know that I've got to and then ultimately you 0:39:21.342 --> 0:39:22.981 just let them down ten times more than you would 0:39:22.982 --> 0:39:23.701 have in the first place. 0:39:23.822 --> 0:39:24.701 Yeah, which is your fear. 0:39:25.622 --> 0:39:28.261 And the last one, seventh type of flake is the 0:39:28.422 --> 0:39:31.701 upgrade flake. This is a flake you'll see a lot 0:39:32.022 --> 0:39:34.422 around news eve. They say yes to plans with you, 0:39:34.502 --> 0:39:37.062 but they keep an eye out for better options always. 0:39:37.221 --> 0:39:38.862 Ye, Mia, I've got a bone to pick with you. 0:39:38.902 --> 0:39:41.062 A bit of feedback about your flakiness. It's not actually 0:39:41.102 --> 0:39:43.862 about the flakingness. It's about because MEA's she's the opposite 0:39:43.862 --> 0:39:44.862 of the people please a flake. 0:39:44.942 --> 0:39:45.062 Right. 0:39:45.142 --> 0:39:50.342 So Mia wrote a newsletter recently, maybe I was feeling sensitive. 0:39:50.422 --> 0:39:52.262 I was like, fuck sake, Maya. When I read. 0:39:54.142 --> 0:39:55.382 Anyone that I had that reaction. 0:39:55.942 --> 0:39:58.261 It was I've got a new way to say no 0:39:58.382 --> 0:40:00.142 to plans, to things I don't want to do. And 0:40:00.302 --> 0:40:02.261 I think the subject line would have been better than that, 0:40:02.261 --> 0:40:04.741 because you're a good writer. But it was basically that 0:40:04.822 --> 0:40:07.741 when someone asks you to do something, you just say, 0:40:07.902 --> 0:40:08.741 oh no, I'd hate that. 0:40:10.142 --> 0:40:11.542 Yeah, oh know, I'd hate that. 0:40:11.781 --> 0:40:15.661 That is so offensive and so very levels. 0:40:15.982 --> 0:40:18.502 Because can I explain I got a liverit that that's 0:40:18.582 --> 0:40:21.781 highly advanced. That's highly advanced preflaking. 0:40:22.181 --> 0:40:25.542 That is like an aggressive, aggressive flake because no, it 0:40:25.622 --> 0:40:27.342 doesn't just say I don't want to do it. It 0:40:27.462 --> 0:40:30.181 kind of says you must be crazy for wanting to 0:40:30.302 --> 0:40:33.181 do that and for thinking, even for a moment, that 0:40:33.342 --> 0:40:34.102 I want to do that. 0:40:34.462 --> 0:40:36.582 Yeah, it's very hard because there's a bit of shame 0:40:36.701 --> 0:40:38.821 in that place. Yes in that response, isn't there? 0:40:38.982 --> 0:40:40.741 And then the other part of my worry is like, 0:40:40.781 --> 0:40:43.661 I've got some concern trolling about it for you. What 0:40:43.822 --> 0:40:46.982 if you think you'd hate it but you wouldn't, because 0:40:47.261 --> 0:40:49.901 I worry that sometimes when you were very rigid about 0:40:49.982 --> 0:40:52.142 I don't do those things, like I don't do Monday 0:40:52.221 --> 0:40:54.261 night drinks or I don't do you. She used to 0:40:54.302 --> 0:40:55.622 be I don't do red carpets. 0:40:55.862 --> 0:40:56.221 I don't. 0:40:56.342 --> 0:40:58.102 Then she went to the logis, yeah, she did a 0:40:58.142 --> 0:41:00.261 red carpet every week, but I hate it still. But 0:41:00.422 --> 0:41:02.502 you went to another one and you were like, actually 0:41:02.582 --> 0:41:05.582 that was fun. So what about breaking out of rigiditity? 0:41:05.982 --> 0:41:08.701 You're right, and sometimes you need to just get over 0:41:08.741 --> 0:41:11.022 yourself and show up. Sometimes you just got to show 0:41:11.102 --> 0:41:14.221 up when it's hurtful to someone else, Like I think 0:41:14.261 --> 0:41:15.382 it's important to show up. 0:41:15.661 --> 0:41:18.582 Twice yesterday I tried to convince people to come to 0:41:18.661 --> 0:41:21.342 an escape room with me. She's different social situations, and 0:41:21.422 --> 0:41:24.982 twice they said along the words of oh, no, i'd 0:41:25.022 --> 0:41:27.582 hate that and starting a movement. Guys, I found myself 0:41:27.741 --> 0:41:32.821 becoming a paid sponsor of escape rooms. And I got 0:41:32.942 --> 0:41:33.782 home and I went. 0:41:33.661 --> 0:41:35.902 Because it's then you take it as a challenge and 0:41:35.982 --> 0:41:37.381 you're like, I'm going to convince. 0:41:37.142 --> 0:41:39.301 You escape rooms are actually really fun. 0:41:39.382 --> 0:41:42.102 Have you found anyone to go to an escape room? Only? Luca? 0:41:42.181 --> 0:41:44.821 And it's just too sad. I am actually reformed for 0:41:44.942 --> 0:41:46.982 like I have managed to reform it. 0:41:47.342 --> 0:41:50.381 You go out a lot. That's true because what changed. 0:41:50.142 --> 0:41:55.661 I was in my I reckon early twenties, so unreliable, 0:41:56.221 --> 0:41:58.542 so like, and that was the I realized that that 0:41:58.622 --> 0:42:01.382 was a reputation I was getting, letting people down with 0:42:01.462 --> 0:42:03.062 something I did all the time because of the people 0:42:03.062 --> 0:42:07.261 pleasing element. I wasn't organized in a diary and I 0:42:07.502 --> 0:42:13.102 saw it seriously people's feelings and someone who needed to 0:42:13.142 --> 0:42:14.941 hang out because something was going on in their lives. 0:42:15.062 --> 0:42:16.982 I wasn't there, and you don't come back from that. 0:42:17.261 --> 0:42:19.221 It's a bit like sex as well, like sometimes you 0:42:19.342 --> 0:42:20.902 just don't feel like it, like the thought of it. 0:42:20.982 --> 0:42:23.142 You're like, I don't know, I'd hate that. Oh no, 0:42:23.181 --> 0:42:27.142 I'd hate that, you think to yourself, But then you 0:42:27.542 --> 0:42:28.301 have a great time. 0:42:28.661 --> 0:42:33.741 I want what I want us to find this many 0:42:33.862 --> 0:42:40.102 ways to answer the question with oh no. This week's 0:42:40.221 --> 0:42:42.382 challenge for everybody. 0:42:41.982 --> 0:42:49.781 Involved with that loud Okay, massive thank you to all 0:42:49.862 --> 0:42:52.741 of the out louders who didn't say oh no, I'd 0:42:52.781 --> 0:42:55.701 hate that when it came to pressing play on today's show, 0:42:56.102 --> 0:42:58.422 and of course to a fabulous scene for putting it together. 0:42:58.462 --> 0:43:01.421 We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Goodbye bye. 0:43:02.862 --> 0:43:05.302 Shout out to any Mum and Me are subscribers listening. 0:43:05.622 --> 0:43:07.701 If you love the show and you want to support us, 0:43:08.022 --> 0:43:10.462 subscribing to Mom and Me I is the very best 0:43:10.542 --> 0:43:13.382 way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.