1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:14,032 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. On December fifteenth, 3 00:00:14,192 --> 00:00:17,472 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Elise Sterne was showing a group of prospective 4 00:00:17,512 --> 00:00:22,312 Speaker 1: buyers through the multimillion dollar Toronto mansion owned by pharmaceutical 5 00:00:22,352 --> 00:00:26,232 Speaker 1: billionaire Barry Sherman and his wife, Honey. Now Honey was 6 00:00:26,272 --> 00:00:28,392 Speaker 1: in the midst of building a new home for her 7 00:00:28,392 --> 00:00:32,592 Speaker 1: and her husband. The estimated thirty million dollar estate that 8 00:00:32,752 --> 00:00:35,232 Speaker 1: was nearer the city and her daughter and new grandchild 9 00:00:35,512 --> 00:00:38,031 Speaker 1: would include living quarters for all the stuff they'd need 10 00:00:38,031 --> 00:00:39,952 Speaker 1: on hand to help run it. So the one they 11 00:00:39,992 --> 00:00:43,912 Speaker 1: were currently in, with all its slightly outdated features, was 12 00:00:43,912 --> 00:00:46,912 Speaker 1: going on the market. Elise stern knew that the Shermans 13 00:00:46,912 --> 00:00:49,471 Speaker 1: wouldn't be around that day. Honey, she'd been told, was 14 00:00:49,512 --> 00:00:53,031 Speaker 1: on a trip, and Barry, who ran the highly successful 15 00:00:53,031 --> 00:00:56,952 Speaker 1: generic pharmaceutical company Arpitects, would be at work like usual, 16 00:00:57,312 --> 00:00:59,112 Speaker 1: So she grabbed the key from a lock box the 17 00:00:59,112 --> 00:01:01,511 Speaker 1: Shermans had left out for her and let herself in. 18 00:01:02,272 --> 00:01:04,232 Speaker 1: Now she took the buyers on a tour of the home, 19 00:01:04,552 --> 00:01:08,232 Speaker 1: pointing out its eclectic ears. She'd tried not to jump 20 00:01:08,232 --> 00:01:10,871 Speaker 1: scare them when they came across the life sized human 21 00:01:10,952 --> 00:01:14,232 Speaker 1: statues that recline on speakers in the media room, laughing 22 00:01:14,271 --> 00:01:16,952 Speaker 1: as they continued on their trek through the five bedroom home, 23 00:01:17,152 --> 00:01:21,472 Speaker 1: complete with tennis cordon sauna. Then Alice suggested they head 24 00:01:21,472 --> 00:01:24,191 Speaker 1: further into the basement to see one of the property's 25 00:01:24,232 --> 00:01:28,432 Speaker 1: more unique features, the indoor pool and hot tup. Now 26 00:01:28,592 --> 00:01:30,472 Speaker 1: like a lod of the mansion, it was also a 27 00:01:30,472 --> 00:01:34,152 Speaker 1: little outdated with its surround of those frosted glass brick walls, 28 00:01:34,831 --> 00:01:37,352 Speaker 1: but it was designed so that the occupants could swim 29 00:01:37,472 --> 00:01:40,632 Speaker 1: all year round, even in the depths of Canada's harsh winters. 30 00:01:40,952 --> 00:01:43,152 Speaker 1: As the group moved through the doors and into the 31 00:01:43,191 --> 00:01:45,911 Speaker 1: warmth of the room, they were surprised to see again 32 00:01:46,112 --> 00:01:49,952 Speaker 1: more human like artwork, this time two mannequins in that 33 00:01:50,032 --> 00:01:52,552 Speaker 1: familiar seated position like they'd seen in the media room, 34 00:01:52,912 --> 00:01:55,072 Speaker 1: but this time they were held up by their necks, 35 00:01:55,272 --> 00:01:57,272 Speaker 1: hanging from the low handrail at the far end of 36 00:01:57,312 --> 00:02:00,872 Speaker 1: the pool. Now only the pool lights were on, so 37 00:02:00,912 --> 00:02:03,872 Speaker 1: they were illuminating the space from below, making it quite 38 00:02:03,952 --> 00:02:06,672 Speaker 1: difficult to fully tell what was happening down the far end, 39 00:02:07,352 --> 00:02:10,992 Speaker 1: but at least knew this house and she knew there 40 00:02:11,112 --> 00:02:15,072 Speaker 1: was no extra artwork down here. She rushed the buyers 41 00:02:15,112 --> 00:02:17,432 Speaker 1: outside and then went up and voiced her fears to 42 00:02:17,472 --> 00:02:20,712 Speaker 1: the housekeeper. She sent the gardener down to confirm it. 43 00:02:21,512 --> 00:02:24,672 Speaker 1: They're dead, Alise would scream to the emergency dispatcher who 44 00:02:24,672 --> 00:02:28,632 Speaker 1: took her call. The discovery of the bodies of Barry 45 00:02:28,792 --> 00:02:33,072 Speaker 1: and Honey Sherman, one of Canada's richest couples, would set 46 00:02:33,112 --> 00:02:36,392 Speaker 1: off an investigation that, nearly eight years later, is still 47 00:02:36,432 --> 00:02:39,832 Speaker 1: not any closer to being solved, even with a thirty 48 00:02:39,912 --> 00:02:42,792 Speaker 1: five million dollar reward on the line for the person 49 00:02:42,792 --> 00:02:45,431 Speaker 1: who can shed light on what really happened to them. 50 00:02:46,112 --> 00:02:54,352 Speaker 1: But the Internet has theories. I'm Claire Murphy and this 51 00:02:54,552 --> 00:02:57,992 Speaker 1: is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most 52 00:02:58,112 --> 00:03:01,152 Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 53 00:03:01,192 --> 00:03:04,032 Speaker 1: most about them. We do need to start off today's 54 00:03:04,032 --> 00:03:07,072 Speaker 1: ap by saying that no one has ever been charged 55 00:03:07,072 --> 00:03:09,312 Speaker 1: in relation to the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman, 56 00:03:09,952 --> 00:03:13,072 Speaker 1: but there have been many who've been considered potential suspects, 57 00:03:13,192 --> 00:03:16,672 Speaker 1: either by the police themselves or Honey in Barry's family 58 00:03:16,712 --> 00:03:20,872 Speaker 1: members and netizens who have a lot to say about 59 00:03:20,872 --> 00:03:24,912 Speaker 1: this still unsolved double murder. Was it connected to Barry's 60 00:03:24,912 --> 00:03:29,032 Speaker 1: business dealings. He was considered, if maybe not big farmer, 61 00:03:29,432 --> 00:03:32,832 Speaker 1: decently sized farmer in Canada, and he had a lot 62 00:03:32,872 --> 00:03:34,912 Speaker 1: of court cases pending at the time of his death. 63 00:03:35,752 --> 00:03:38,752 Speaker 1: Was it a family member squabbling over an inheritance that 64 00:03:38,832 --> 00:03:42,112 Speaker 1: would make some of them instant billionaires If not one, 65 00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:45,472 Speaker 1: but both of the Shermans died, and who was the 66 00:03:45,552 --> 00:03:48,112 Speaker 1: mystery man seen walking away from the Sherman's home when 67 00:03:48,112 --> 00:03:51,872 Speaker 1: the dates believed they were killed. Despite the Shermans being 68 00:03:51,952 --> 00:03:55,792 Speaker 1: quite the philanthropists, donating to many charities and helping their community, 69 00:03:56,432 --> 00:03:59,192 Speaker 1: there are people who were not surprised by their deaths 70 00:03:59,512 --> 00:04:02,432 Speaker 1: or who had openly discussed how they'd imagine framing or 71 00:04:02,472 --> 00:04:05,872 Speaker 1: even killing them in the past. Even Barry himself had 72 00:04:05,952 --> 00:04:08,472 Speaker 1: openly discussed the fact that someone may try to take 73 00:04:08,512 --> 00:04:11,352 Speaker 1: him out one day. But could it have also been 74 00:04:11,392 --> 00:04:15,312 Speaker 1: a case of murder suicide. We'll explore all the theories 75 00:04:15,352 --> 00:04:18,392 Speaker 1: of how the Shermans ended up dead with Kevin Donovan, 76 00:04:18,592 --> 00:04:21,192 Speaker 1: a journalist with a Toronto Star and host of their 77 00:04:21,231 --> 00:04:24,152 Speaker 1: podcast Suspicion. He's also the author of the book The 78 00:04:24,192 --> 00:04:29,632 Speaker 1: Billionaire murders, he joins us. Now I'd like to start 79 00:04:29,672 --> 00:04:33,072 Speaker 1: with just giving us an idea of who Barry and 80 00:04:33,232 --> 00:04:36,112 Speaker 1: Honey Sherman were at the times of their death and 81 00:04:36,152 --> 00:04:38,152 Speaker 1: how they were perceived by the people around them in 82 00:04:38,192 --> 00:04:40,791 Speaker 1: the wider community. So can we start with Barry because 83 00:04:40,832 --> 00:04:44,592 Speaker 1: the overarching sense I get from the feedback from everybody 84 00:04:44,592 --> 00:04:47,112 Speaker 1: who knew him was that he was a chronic workaholic. 85 00:04:47,832 --> 00:04:51,272 Speaker 2: Yes, that is the understivement of the century. Barry was 86 00:04:51,272 --> 00:04:54,832 Speaker 2: a chronic workaholic. He was seventy five years old at 87 00:04:54,832 --> 00:04:58,432 Speaker 2: the time of his murder. He grew up in a 88 00:04:58,472 --> 00:05:02,472 Speaker 2: harsh part of Toronto. Father died at a very young age, 89 00:05:02,552 --> 00:05:06,872 Speaker 2: and Barry had been called butterball by his tea teachers, 90 00:05:07,432 --> 00:05:10,872 Speaker 2: which is not something the teachers say these days, but 91 00:05:10,912 --> 00:05:13,992 Speaker 2: this was the fifties. And then he realized that he 92 00:05:14,032 --> 00:05:17,192 Speaker 2: needed to start working, and he worked for his uncle 93 00:05:17,312 --> 00:05:21,032 Speaker 2: Lou who was a pioneer in the generic pharmaceutical world 94 00:05:21,112 --> 00:05:23,752 Speaker 2: in the summer, and then Barry went to university in 95 00:05:23,792 --> 00:05:26,671 Speaker 2: the US did a PhD in Masters. In quick succession, 96 00:05:27,192 --> 00:05:30,512 Speaker 2: his uncle dies. Barry ends up buying his uncle's company 97 00:05:30,592 --> 00:05:32,952 Speaker 2: and not going to work at Nassau which was his 98 00:05:33,112 --> 00:05:37,111 Speaker 2: plan all along. And then he sells that company, sets 99 00:05:37,192 --> 00:05:40,952 Speaker 2: up Appitects, which is Canada's biggest generic Canada's only big 100 00:05:40,992 --> 00:05:45,232 Speaker 2: generic pharmaceutical company. And that's in the early seventies, and 101 00:05:45,272 --> 00:05:48,312 Speaker 2: then by the eighties he is a millionaire, and by 102 00:05:48,712 --> 00:05:53,392 Speaker 2: late nineties, early two thousands, he's a billionaire. Honey different upbringing. 103 00:05:53,512 --> 00:05:57,152 Speaker 2: She was a product of the Holocaust. Her parents were 104 00:05:57,192 --> 00:06:00,671 Speaker 2: in Nazi slave camps during the Second World War. She's 105 00:06:00,712 --> 00:06:03,832 Speaker 2: born in a displaced person's camp in nineteen forty seven, 106 00:06:04,272 --> 00:06:07,512 Speaker 2: and she ends up end the up in Canada with 107 00:06:07,592 --> 00:06:10,032 Speaker 2: her mom and dad and her young sister and they 108 00:06:10,072 --> 00:06:13,432 Speaker 2: meet as people used to, not through tinder, but through 109 00:06:13,712 --> 00:06:17,112 Speaker 2: being introduced to by a good friend of theirs, and 110 00:06:17,152 --> 00:06:19,671 Speaker 2: they marry in nineteen seventy three. And so at the 111 00:06:19,712 --> 00:06:23,512 Speaker 2: time of their death, they were one of Canada's I 112 00:06:23,512 --> 00:06:28,032 Speaker 2: would say, in the top five wealthiest couples. They were valued, 113 00:06:28,112 --> 00:06:32,592 Speaker 2: I believe at ten billion dollars Canadian dollars, and I'll 114 00:06:32,632 --> 00:06:35,592 Speaker 2: let you do the exchange rate for your listeners. And 115 00:06:35,712 --> 00:06:38,672 Speaker 2: they were you know, Barry was a workaholic, as you said, Claire, 116 00:06:38,752 --> 00:06:43,072 Speaker 2: and would work until ten thirty on almost every night 117 00:06:43,472 --> 00:06:47,192 Speaker 2: Honey was the driving force of the philanthropy of the family. 118 00:06:47,232 --> 00:06:50,351 Speaker 2: They gave away hundreds of millions of dollars over the 119 00:06:50,432 --> 00:06:55,072 Speaker 2: years to all sorts of Jewish they're Jewish couple and 120 00:06:55,192 --> 00:07:00,952 Speaker 2: non Jewish charities. And you know, they were unique billionaires, 121 00:07:00,992 --> 00:07:04,192 Speaker 2: a little bit like Warren Buffett in the US. You know, 122 00:07:04,312 --> 00:07:07,672 Speaker 2: drives an older car and lives in the same house forever. 123 00:07:08,112 --> 00:07:10,312 Speaker 2: You know, Honey had this pair of workout shorts that 124 00:07:10,352 --> 00:07:13,272 Speaker 2: she got a hole in the crotch and she'd darned 125 00:07:13,272 --> 00:07:16,512 Speaker 2: them instead of getting a new pair. And Barry, they 126 00:07:16,512 --> 00:07:19,912 Speaker 2: both drove old cars right up until their death, got 127 00:07:19,992 --> 00:07:22,392 Speaker 2: them fixed if they had too many rest spots. They 128 00:07:22,432 --> 00:07:23,672 Speaker 2: were very different. 129 00:07:24,032 --> 00:07:27,312 Speaker 1: There's that iconic story of Honey giving Barry a sports 130 00:07:27,312 --> 00:07:29,392 Speaker 1: car for his birthday and him famously telling her to 131 00:07:29,432 --> 00:07:31,472 Speaker 1: take it back. They were pretty tired with their cash 132 00:07:31,512 --> 00:07:32,192 Speaker 1: at times. 133 00:07:32,632 --> 00:07:35,152 Speaker 2: They were. I mean, they did, I would say, have 134 00:07:35,192 --> 00:07:39,552 Speaker 2: a unique relationship with cash. Yes, Barry was given a 135 00:07:39,592 --> 00:07:42,672 Speaker 2: sports car, but he wanted to keep his old fifteen 136 00:07:42,752 --> 00:07:47,712 Speaker 2: year old Mustang ragtop convertible with brakes that didn't work, 137 00:07:47,792 --> 00:07:51,872 Speaker 2: because how would you get a place to fix breaks 138 00:07:51,912 --> 00:07:55,232 Speaker 2: if you're a billionaires? There like that. At the time 139 00:07:55,232 --> 00:08:00,032 Speaker 2: of their death, they had two iPads that were so smashed, 140 00:08:00,152 --> 00:08:03,512 Speaker 2: just by the early model iPads, one on each side 141 00:08:03,752 --> 00:08:06,432 Speaker 2: of the master bedroom. You know, they never thought to 142 00:08:06,432 --> 00:08:08,192 Speaker 2: get a new one. They didn't know how to get 143 00:08:08,272 --> 00:08:11,832 Speaker 2: Netflix on the television. But they were building a thirty 144 00:08:11,872 --> 00:08:15,472 Speaker 2: million dollar mansion at the time of their death, which 145 00:08:15,712 --> 00:08:19,112 Speaker 2: was Honey's idea. Honey of the workout shorts, that she 146 00:08:19,112 --> 00:08:21,032 Speaker 2: would darn when they got a hole in them. She 147 00:08:21,032 --> 00:08:23,752 Speaker 2: wouldn't buy a new pair, yet she wanted a mansion. 148 00:08:23,832 --> 00:08:27,832 Speaker 2: So it's it's unique. It's a very different relationship with money, 149 00:08:27,832 --> 00:08:31,392 Speaker 2: and that was also an unusual relationship when it came 150 00:08:31,432 --> 00:08:36,152 Speaker 2: to their children, very parented by giving money to the kids, 151 00:08:36,312 --> 00:08:40,391 Speaker 2: more to some than others. There's four children. Honey didn't 152 00:08:40,472 --> 00:08:42,592 Speaker 2: like that. She wanted them to work and make their 153 00:08:42,632 --> 00:08:46,752 Speaker 2: own money, and that was one of the big sources 154 00:08:46,752 --> 00:08:48,392 Speaker 2: of tension in the Sherman family. 155 00:08:49,032 --> 00:08:51,632 Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about the day that the Sherman's 156 00:08:51,672 --> 00:08:55,232 Speaker 1: bodies were found. We know that they were initially discovered 157 00:08:55,232 --> 00:08:57,511 Speaker 1: by the real estate agent who was showing the potential 158 00:08:57,512 --> 00:09:01,112 Speaker 1: buyers through and then confirmed by the housekeeper that it 159 00:09:01,192 --> 00:09:04,112 Speaker 1: was actually Barry and honey hanging from the railings around 160 00:09:04,152 --> 00:09:08,072 Speaker 1: the pool. But before all the bodies were found, I 161 00:09:08,192 --> 00:09:12,032 Speaker 1: understand that the housekeeper had said that she had noticed 162 00:09:12,752 --> 00:09:15,792 Speaker 1: some things that seemed a bit odd when she arrived 163 00:09:15,952 --> 00:09:18,072 Speaker 1: to work that day, and in fact, the real estate 164 00:09:18,072 --> 00:09:21,552 Speaker 1: agent had also found a few odd things before those 165 00:09:21,552 --> 00:09:24,472 Speaker 1: bodies were discovered. What were the things that were kind 166 00:09:24,472 --> 00:09:28,072 Speaker 1: of out of place that day that made people think, oh, 167 00:09:28,112 --> 00:09:30,631 Speaker 1: that's a bit weird before they even knew something terrible 168 00:09:30,672 --> 00:09:31,152 Speaker 1: had happened. 169 00:09:32,232 --> 00:09:35,672 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's Friday, in the middle of December of 170 00:09:35,712 --> 00:09:39,672 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. The cleaning lady, Nelia, walks up as she 171 00:09:39,712 --> 00:09:43,472 Speaker 2: often does, to pick up an emil or newspapers, and 172 00:09:43,512 --> 00:09:46,752 Speaker 2: she sees that there's two copies of actually my own newspaper, 173 00:09:46,832 --> 00:09:50,832 Speaker 2: the Toronto Star, lying on the front doorstep. And this 174 00:09:50,912 --> 00:09:54,632 Speaker 2: is a Friday, and that seems odd to her. She 175 00:09:54,792 --> 00:09:57,552 Speaker 2: does not come on the Thursday. She had been there 176 00:09:57,592 --> 00:10:01,432 Speaker 2: earlier in the week, but somebody else would normally be there, 177 00:10:01,632 --> 00:10:03,952 Speaker 2: like the Shermans, to pick up the paper, so that's odd. 178 00:10:04,392 --> 00:10:07,432 Speaker 2: She goes to the side door. The Shermans, like I 179 00:10:07,432 --> 00:10:10,152 Speaker 2: think many people, including myself, are side door people. They 180 00:10:10,152 --> 00:10:12,832 Speaker 2: don't use their front entrance, so she goes to the 181 00:10:12,912 --> 00:10:16,271 Speaker 2: side door and she tries her key, and her key works. 182 00:10:16,712 --> 00:10:18,992 Speaker 2: She goes in, and then she notices that the alarm 183 00:10:19,112 --> 00:10:22,032 Speaker 2: was not set. The Shermans are not big on security. 184 00:10:22,112 --> 00:10:24,511 Speaker 2: They have no video or anything like that, but they 185 00:10:24,552 --> 00:10:26,952 Speaker 2: do lot. They put on their alarm every night, so 186 00:10:26,992 --> 00:10:30,312 Speaker 2: she thinks that's odd. And then she goes upstairs and 187 00:10:30,912 --> 00:10:34,232 Speaker 2: she sees that the bed is made in a way 188 00:10:34,432 --> 00:10:38,352 Speaker 2: that Honey would not have made it. So on the Thursday, 189 00:10:38,352 --> 00:10:42,312 Speaker 2: this is a Friday, she's expecting to find the bed 190 00:10:42,472 --> 00:10:45,872 Speaker 2: unmade because that's one of her jobs to do the 191 00:10:46,352 --> 00:10:49,592 Speaker 2: linen and tidy up the place. But she sees that 192 00:10:49,592 --> 00:10:53,992 Speaker 2: the bed has been made, but in reality it's been 193 00:10:54,032 --> 00:10:57,072 Speaker 2: made by a cleaning lady. On the Wednesday, which is 194 00:10:57,112 --> 00:10:59,712 Speaker 2: the last day the Shermans are alive, so that's unusual, 195 00:11:00,152 --> 00:11:02,072 Speaker 2: she expects to find Honey there. They had a plan 196 00:11:02,152 --> 00:11:06,552 Speaker 2: to make potato latkaz for Hanukkah celebration that night, and 197 00:11:06,672 --> 00:11:09,832 Speaker 2: Honey and Barrier not in the house, which is unusual. 198 00:11:10,392 --> 00:11:14,712 Speaker 2: And she notices that the sink is dry, and by 199 00:11:14,752 --> 00:11:17,672 Speaker 2: that time eight thirty on the Friday morning, she would 200 00:11:17,712 --> 00:11:19,752 Speaker 2: expect Honey to be up and to wash her face, 201 00:11:20,192 --> 00:11:22,472 Speaker 2: and so these are things that are tells to her, 202 00:11:22,952 --> 00:11:26,712 Speaker 2: but you know, she has no idea, you know, the reality, 203 00:11:26,752 --> 00:11:30,151 Speaker 2: the horror that is in the basement. And she later 204 00:11:30,192 --> 00:11:32,992 Speaker 2: tells the police investigators that she had and these are 205 00:11:33,032 --> 00:11:36,272 Speaker 2: her words, a black feeling when she walked in that house. 206 00:11:36,432 --> 00:11:39,952 Speaker 2: Very superstitious woman originally from the Philippines, so she feels 207 00:11:40,232 --> 00:11:41,312 Speaker 2: that something is off. 208 00:11:41,792 --> 00:11:45,192 Speaker 1: The real estate agent also finds some paperwork randomly sort 209 00:11:45,232 --> 00:11:49,232 Speaker 1: of scattered on the ground around the garage and berries BlackBerry, 210 00:11:49,272 --> 00:11:51,472 Speaker 1: which is weird for anyone to be using a BlackBerry 211 00:11:51,472 --> 00:11:54,752 Speaker 1: by that stage, but kind of tracks with how they 212 00:11:54,792 --> 00:11:57,032 Speaker 1: were with technology at that stage, I guess on the 213 00:11:57,112 --> 00:12:00,112 Speaker 1: ground and she sort of tied is that up too? 214 00:12:00,152 --> 00:12:03,112 Speaker 1: So she she seems to think that maybe something's not 215 00:12:03,152 --> 00:12:05,472 Speaker 1: quite right too, but she's distracted by the fact that 216 00:12:05,512 --> 00:12:07,912 Speaker 1: she's got bias and has to show them around the property. 217 00:12:08,232 --> 00:12:11,192 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in fact, that discovery has made about a 218 00:12:11,272 --> 00:12:14,272 Speaker 2: minute before she discovers the bodies. It's ten o'clock in 219 00:12:14,312 --> 00:12:16,952 Speaker 2: the morning. Nelia, the cleaner's been there since eight thirty. 220 00:12:17,232 --> 00:12:19,832 Speaker 2: Ten o'clock at least the agent is there with another 221 00:12:19,912 --> 00:12:22,872 Speaker 2: agent and two clients. Houses for sale for six point 222 00:12:22,952 --> 00:12:26,312 Speaker 2: nine million had just gone on the market, and Barry 223 00:12:26,312 --> 00:12:30,392 Speaker 2: had promised to mark up a home inspection report and 224 00:12:30,432 --> 00:12:33,032 Speaker 2: bring it home for her, and she was expecting to 225 00:12:33,032 --> 00:12:35,832 Speaker 2: find that, perhaps on the kitchen table. She doesn't. She 226 00:12:35,912 --> 00:12:38,952 Speaker 2: goes to the basement after finishing the full tour, takes 227 00:12:38,952 --> 00:12:41,592 Speaker 2: the clients in, and that's where she sees the BlackBerry, 228 00:12:42,072 --> 00:12:44,392 Speaker 2: and she sees the home inspection report, a bunch of 229 00:12:44,392 --> 00:12:48,112 Speaker 2: papers in a folder, and she also sees gloves just 230 00:12:48,232 --> 00:12:52,152 Speaker 2: lying on a hallway which is immediately outside of the 231 00:12:52,152 --> 00:12:55,112 Speaker 2: garage door. The garage door where and Barry's car is 232 00:12:55,152 --> 00:12:57,912 Speaker 2: parked on the other side, so she thinks that's odd, 233 00:12:58,152 --> 00:12:59,911 Speaker 2: And then of course she makes a discovery. 234 00:13:00,152 --> 00:13:04,032 Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about what is actually in that room, 235 00:13:04,472 --> 00:13:07,072 Speaker 1: because as I've heard it described, when at last first 236 00:13:07,072 --> 00:13:08,912 Speaker 1: walks in and she turns the pool lights on, and 237 00:13:08,912 --> 00:13:11,472 Speaker 1: this isn't a basement, so there's no windows, there's no skylights, 238 00:13:11,752 --> 00:13:14,632 Speaker 1: so it's like from within, the pool is lit up 239 00:13:14,632 --> 00:13:17,992 Speaker 1: and they can see what looks like two human figures 240 00:13:18,312 --> 00:13:20,512 Speaker 1: on the other side the filing. Then there's a lappool, 241 00:13:20,512 --> 00:13:22,992 Speaker 1: so it's not a small pool. It's quite long and 242 00:13:23,032 --> 00:13:27,031 Speaker 1: they see them hanging there. So what is actually discovered 243 00:13:27,072 --> 00:13:30,272 Speaker 1: when someone goes to check on Barry and honey, what 244 00:13:30,912 --> 00:13:32,232 Speaker 1: does that scene look like? 245 00:13:32,792 --> 00:13:36,112 Speaker 2: Well, the scene is from the doorway of the pool. 246 00:13:36,232 --> 00:13:39,952 Speaker 2: It's just over forty five feet to where the Shermans 247 00:13:39,952 --> 00:13:42,432 Speaker 2: are our positioned, and you're quite right. It's a very 248 00:13:42,512 --> 00:13:45,192 Speaker 2: narrow lap pool and at the far end is a 249 00:13:45,232 --> 00:13:48,152 Speaker 2: safety railing kind of guarding the area where you get 250 00:13:48,152 --> 00:13:51,512 Speaker 2: into the pool. So it's just three feet high. So 251 00:13:51,552 --> 00:13:54,152 Speaker 2: at least the agent she sees in the distance these 252 00:13:54,192 --> 00:13:58,312 Speaker 2: two figures, and she's got clients with her, and her 253 00:13:58,352 --> 00:14:01,792 Speaker 2: heart starts to beat and then she thinks, oh, are 254 00:14:01,832 --> 00:14:04,552 Speaker 2: the Shermans doing yoga? One of the children, one of 255 00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:07,712 Speaker 2: the Sherman children, is a yogi out in Western Canada. 256 00:14:08,272 --> 00:14:10,631 Speaker 2: But then she thinks they're not doing yoga, there's something 257 00:14:10,672 --> 00:14:14,672 Speaker 2: around their necks. So she gets the clients out of there. 258 00:14:15,192 --> 00:14:18,672 Speaker 2: And then eventually the gardener who has shown up that 259 00:14:18,832 --> 00:14:21,992 Speaker 2: morning to water indoor plants. This is winter in Canada, 260 00:14:22,152 --> 00:14:25,072 Speaker 2: so it's no outdoor gardening. The gardener goes down and 261 00:14:26,352 --> 00:14:29,072 Speaker 2: gets a really close look. She comes within three or 262 00:14:29,072 --> 00:14:32,472 Speaker 2: four feet of the Shermans and I have the crime 263 00:14:32,512 --> 00:14:35,152 Speaker 2: scene pictures. I know what they look like. The Shermans 264 00:14:35,152 --> 00:14:38,392 Speaker 2: are quite obviously dead. Their tongues are purple, they're out 265 00:14:38,392 --> 00:14:43,072 Speaker 2: of their mouth. They are in a their position kind 266 00:14:43,112 --> 00:14:46,432 Speaker 2: of backwards like this, so they're in a seated position. 267 00:14:46,552 --> 00:14:50,952 Speaker 2: Their buttocks are on the floor, but they're tilting backward 268 00:14:51,032 --> 00:14:53,192 Speaker 2: and the force of the belt is around the back 269 00:14:53,232 --> 00:14:57,752 Speaker 2: of their neck. And Berry and Honey, both their shoes 270 00:14:57,752 --> 00:15:02,472 Speaker 2: are on. Berry's feet are crossed in a very passive manner. 271 00:15:02,832 --> 00:15:06,832 Speaker 2: His eyeglasses are perched neatly on his head. These are 272 00:15:06,872 --> 00:15:10,072 Speaker 2: all things that in my investigation, you know, the police 273 00:15:10,072 --> 00:15:13,672 Speaker 2: should have picked up as signs of a staged crime scene, 274 00:15:13,352 --> 00:15:16,232 Speaker 2: but they didn't. And then you know, the police are called, 275 00:15:16,272 --> 00:15:20,472 Speaker 2: and then then what happens is the not Toronto's finest 276 00:15:20,552 --> 00:15:25,432 Speaker 2: comes tramping in and one of the young officers who's 277 00:15:25,432 --> 00:15:27,432 Speaker 2: put in charge of the scene while they wait for 278 00:15:27,512 --> 00:15:31,232 Speaker 2: the homicide detectives, gives the three women present, the gardener 279 00:15:31,272 --> 00:15:34,672 Speaker 2: and the agent, and the cleaning woman separates them, puts 280 00:15:34,712 --> 00:15:37,912 Speaker 2: them in different rooms. And the cleaning woman does what 281 00:15:38,272 --> 00:15:41,112 Speaker 2: any self respecting cleaning person would do when she has 282 00:15:41,152 --> 00:15:43,672 Speaker 2: two hours to wait to be interviewed by police. She 283 00:15:43,712 --> 00:15:47,392 Speaker 2: starts cleaning, so she is cleaning the kitchen area and 284 00:15:47,432 --> 00:15:51,112 Speaker 2: the foyer, which are areas where the actual crime took place. 285 00:15:51,232 --> 00:15:54,392 Speaker 2: So that's, you know, one of the main mistakes in 286 00:15:54,432 --> 00:15:57,552 Speaker 2: the early days, but surely not the only one. 287 00:15:57,952 --> 00:16:01,272 Speaker 1: What would have led police to suggest at the very 288 00:16:01,312 --> 00:16:04,232 Speaker 1: start of this investigation that it was a murder suicide. 289 00:16:04,512 --> 00:16:06,672 Speaker 2: Well, that's a question I've been trying to saw for 290 00:16:06,752 --> 00:16:10,472 Speaker 2: seven and a half years. There's an email chain between 291 00:16:10,512 --> 00:16:13,552 Speaker 2: Barry and Honey from a few weeks before they're clearly 292 00:16:13,592 --> 00:16:17,272 Speaker 2: not getting along. Barry writes to Honey that you have 293 00:16:17,472 --> 00:16:19,992 Speaker 2: been you Honey had been abusive to me and our 294 00:16:20,072 --> 00:16:22,872 Speaker 2: children for forty years. Honey had been trying to get 295 00:16:22,912 --> 00:16:27,912 Speaker 2: Bury to agree. Buy email there in different places. She's 296 00:16:27,952 --> 00:16:31,112 Speaker 2: on a golf trip, he's at the office, and she's 297 00:16:31,152 --> 00:16:34,672 Speaker 2: trying to get Bury. Hey, let's go and go to 298 00:16:34,752 --> 00:16:37,392 Speaker 2: Montreal and have a nice weekend. And that's when he 299 00:16:38,072 --> 00:16:42,112 Speaker 2: makes these quite strong remarks against his wife. I think 300 00:16:42,152 --> 00:16:45,992 Speaker 2: the police saw stuff like that and wondered if maybe 301 00:16:46,272 --> 00:16:49,832 Speaker 2: this was a case of murder suicide. The main problem 302 00:16:50,032 --> 00:16:54,072 Speaker 2: seems to be that the pathologist, relatively junior pathologist, is 303 00:16:54,112 --> 00:16:57,872 Speaker 2: called to the scene. That doesn't often happen in Canada. 304 00:16:58,192 --> 00:17:02,632 Speaker 2: Pathologist usually just does the autopsy. This pathologist came to 305 00:17:02,712 --> 00:17:06,631 Speaker 2: the scene and he misdiagnosed it. The police invest are 306 00:17:06,632 --> 00:17:10,232 Speaker 2: assigned to the case. She actually a veteran homicide detective. She, 307 00:17:10,591 --> 00:17:13,151 Speaker 2: for a reason that has never been explained, does not 308 00:17:13,272 --> 00:17:17,952 Speaker 2: go to the crime scene. Any watcher of crime shows, 309 00:17:18,071 --> 00:17:22,271 Speaker 2: listener to podcasts, the detective always shows up and so 310 00:17:22,831 --> 00:17:26,231 Speaker 2: by later that evening and not too late, media is 311 00:17:26,311 --> 00:17:28,672 Speaker 2: on the front lawn. This is a big story in 312 00:17:28,712 --> 00:17:33,671 Speaker 2: our country. Top billionaire, top philanthropist found dead. But junior 313 00:17:33,712 --> 00:17:36,551 Speaker 2: detective gives a press conference in which he says, at 314 00:17:36,552 --> 00:17:38,951 Speaker 2: this time there are no suspects to be going after 315 00:17:39,552 --> 00:17:44,831 Speaker 2: and so it's completely misdiagnosed. They don't change their diagnosis 316 00:17:44,831 --> 00:17:47,471 Speaker 2: of the crime until I come out with a story 317 00:17:47,512 --> 00:17:49,912 Speaker 2: on the second autopsies that were done by the Sherman 318 00:17:50,552 --> 00:17:56,032 Speaker 2: hired pathologist. And one of my things that really surprises 319 00:17:56,071 --> 00:17:58,791 Speaker 2: me is why did the police have to hear that 320 00:17:59,192 --> 00:18:02,351 Speaker 2: from me from my newspaper, The Toronto Star. Why didn't 321 00:18:02,792 --> 00:18:06,872 Speaker 2: the state trustees and the children of bearing honey, Why 322 00:18:06,911 --> 00:18:08,391 Speaker 2: didn't they call up the police and say, hey, do 323 00:18:08,391 --> 00:18:12,111 Speaker 2: you want to see this report. But anyways, that's why 324 00:18:12,431 --> 00:18:14,232 Speaker 2: media is necessary in the society. 325 00:18:16,671 --> 00:18:19,711 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 326 00:18:19,871 --> 00:18:23,512 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Kevin Donovan, investigative journalist at the Toronto Star, 327 00:18:23,911 --> 00:18:26,552 Speaker 1: author of The Billionaire Murders and host of the Billionaire 328 00:18:26,591 --> 00:18:30,992 Speaker 1: Murders podcast. Up next, Kevin explains what the pathologists report 329 00:18:31,032 --> 00:18:34,552 Speaker 1: uncovered and why it changed what many believed about how 330 00:18:34,631 --> 00:18:41,351 Speaker 1: Barry and Honey died. Can we talk about the pathologists report? 331 00:18:41,431 --> 00:18:44,552 Speaker 1: What did that discover that led you to believe this 332 00:18:44,671 --> 00:18:46,311 Speaker 1: was not a case of murder suicide? 333 00:18:46,752 --> 00:18:51,111 Speaker 2: Oh, I mean it's glaring. The second pathologist does to 334 00:18:51,311 --> 00:18:54,751 Speaker 2: autopsies on Burian Honey the following week, just before the burial, 335 00:18:55,431 --> 00:19:00,032 Speaker 2: discovers that under the wrists when you do an autopsy, 336 00:19:01,071 --> 00:19:04,711 Speaker 2: degloving often occurs where the skin is pulled back and 337 00:19:04,831 --> 00:19:09,111 Speaker 2: he finds marks on the wrist which indicate to him 338 00:19:09,111 --> 00:19:12,311 Speaker 2: that they have been tied up while alive. He knows 339 00:19:12,351 --> 00:19:16,431 Speaker 2: they were alive because the type of microscopic damage to 340 00:19:16,512 --> 00:19:20,311 Speaker 2: the cells that he discovers only occurs if blood is pumping, 341 00:19:20,831 --> 00:19:24,311 Speaker 2: So that's the first thing. The belts that are around 342 00:19:24,311 --> 00:19:27,711 Speaker 2: their necks which are holding them in this semi seated 343 00:19:27,831 --> 00:19:31,511 Speaker 2: upright position, tied to the railing above them on the 344 00:19:31,552 --> 00:19:35,311 Speaker 2: pool deck. The belts don't aren't the method of their death. 345 00:19:35,752 --> 00:19:39,111 Speaker 2: There are thin ligature marks, quite thin from something that 346 00:19:39,631 --> 00:19:42,591 Speaker 2: has been likened to me as a cable tie, so 347 00:19:42,712 --> 00:19:45,512 Speaker 2: quite a large would have to be a twelve inch 348 00:19:45,591 --> 00:19:48,992 Speaker 2: cable tie used to tie cables together. That is most 349 00:19:49,071 --> 00:19:51,992 Speaker 2: likely what killed them. The belts are just holding them up. 350 00:19:52,071 --> 00:19:54,351 Speaker 2: So he finds these two things. And the real kicker, 351 00:19:54,351 --> 00:19:56,951 Speaker 2: of course, is none of these ties are found at 352 00:19:56,952 --> 00:20:00,031 Speaker 2: the scene. So I would say to the Toronto police, 353 00:20:00,391 --> 00:20:03,071 Speaker 2: how does he tire up, tie himself up, kill honey, 354 00:20:03,151 --> 00:20:07,392 Speaker 2: kill himself and then make these things van It's not possible. 355 00:20:08,151 --> 00:20:11,751 Speaker 1: Where does the police investigation go then? After that autopsy report? 356 00:20:12,151 --> 00:20:14,952 Speaker 1: As far as I can see, police have never officially 357 00:20:15,351 --> 00:20:19,631 Speaker 1: released a name of any potential suspect throughout this investigation. 358 00:20:19,712 --> 00:20:20,952 Speaker 1: So where does it go from there? 359 00:20:21,792 --> 00:20:24,831 Speaker 2: Yeah? So the police, after our story comes out and 360 00:20:24,871 --> 00:20:27,311 Speaker 2: they have a big press conference announcing that after their 361 00:20:27,431 --> 00:20:30,032 Speaker 2: hard work, they have determined it as a double murder, 362 00:20:30,472 --> 00:20:33,511 Speaker 2: they start asking the question they should have asked all 363 00:20:33,552 --> 00:20:37,151 Speaker 2: along in the first six weeks before it was labeled 364 00:20:37,151 --> 00:20:39,391 Speaker 2: a double murder. They were asking people, and I have 365 00:20:39,631 --> 00:20:42,471 Speaker 2: all the witness statements, why would Barry do this to Honey? 366 00:20:42,871 --> 00:20:44,752 Speaker 2: They should have been asking who would have killed Barry 367 00:20:44,792 --> 00:20:47,712 Speaker 2: and Honey and killed them both? So the police start 368 00:20:47,792 --> 00:20:50,431 Speaker 2: doing all these interviews. They interview about two hundred and 369 00:20:50,472 --> 00:20:57,151 Speaker 2: fifty people, friends, relatives, children, business associates, charity associates, people 370 00:20:57,192 --> 00:21:02,631 Speaker 2: like that, and they're nowhere and they have only ever 371 00:21:03,431 --> 00:21:08,191 Speaker 2: labeled one person an actual suspect publicly. We don't know 372 00:21:08,232 --> 00:21:11,591 Speaker 2: who this person is. It's this infamous walking man who 373 00:21:11,671 --> 00:21:15,951 Speaker 2: is spotted caught on camera about a kilometer away from 374 00:21:16,071 --> 00:21:18,831 Speaker 2: the Sherman home. They don't know who he is. They 375 00:21:18,871 --> 00:21:23,032 Speaker 2: see him moving through the neighborhood. By the way, our CCTV, 376 00:21:23,192 --> 00:21:26,151 Speaker 2: at least in this area is not as good as 377 00:21:26,591 --> 00:21:29,792 Speaker 2: you see on television. There's not as much of it. 378 00:21:30,591 --> 00:21:33,471 Speaker 2: But they do catch this person walking towards the Sherman 379 00:21:33,512 --> 00:21:36,152 Speaker 2: house at around the time of the murders and walking 380 00:21:36,272 --> 00:21:39,552 Speaker 2: away from it. And the person that is between five 381 00:21:39,552 --> 00:21:42,472 Speaker 2: foot six and five foot nine, please say he's involved 382 00:21:42,472 --> 00:21:44,552 Speaker 2: in the murders, but they don't know who he is. 383 00:21:44,631 --> 00:21:47,351 Speaker 2: And one of the other big mistakes in this police 384 00:21:47,351 --> 00:21:50,951 Speaker 2: investigation is that they wait four years to show the 385 00:21:50,992 --> 00:21:54,272 Speaker 2: image of this walking man walking through the snow with 386 00:21:54,391 --> 00:21:57,472 Speaker 2: his apparently distinctive gait where he lifts his right leg 387 00:21:57,591 --> 00:22:01,032 Speaker 2: up slightly more than his left as he walks. Four 388 00:22:01,151 --> 00:22:03,711 Speaker 2: years is a long time to ask the public to 389 00:22:03,752 --> 00:22:08,792 Speaker 2: remember who somebody is. You know. They don't check airport's surveillance. 390 00:22:09,111 --> 00:22:11,671 Speaker 2: They don't check our Transit Commission buses, which are all 391 00:22:11,712 --> 00:22:13,591 Speaker 2: equipped with cameras. They don't do any of that stuff. 392 00:22:13,631 --> 00:22:16,912 Speaker 2: So all that evidence has just gone unfortunately. 393 00:22:16,992 --> 00:22:21,992 Speaker 1: And do they find anything in the home itself that 394 00:22:22,151 --> 00:22:25,552 Speaker 1: might give them some idea like whether this was a robbery, 395 00:22:25,752 --> 00:22:29,752 Speaker 1: was anything taken? Did they find any you know, paperwork 396 00:22:29,871 --> 00:22:32,431 Speaker 1: or money missing, or anything that might give us an 397 00:22:32,431 --> 00:22:37,592 Speaker 1: idea as to why this walkingman targeted Berry and Honey. 398 00:22:37,631 --> 00:22:41,231 Speaker 2: They don't find anything that will help them, either forensically 399 00:22:41,472 --> 00:22:46,552 Speaker 2: or as you mention, related to a robbery. Honey's purse 400 00:22:46,591 --> 00:22:49,431 Speaker 2: which was found in the kitchen. I think she was surprised. 401 00:22:49,631 --> 00:22:51,751 Speaker 2: And I should say that this murder takes place two 402 00:22:51,831 --> 00:22:54,871 Speaker 2: days before the bodies are found. They find the police 403 00:22:55,431 --> 00:22:58,111 Speaker 2: look in her purse and there's seventy five hundred dollars 404 00:22:58,111 --> 00:23:01,752 Speaker 2: in cash there in her wallet, so you know, thief 405 00:23:01,831 --> 00:23:06,992 Speaker 2: might have taken that. They find Berries black Bear, I mean, 406 00:23:07,032 --> 00:23:10,032 Speaker 2: Barry was a titan of Canadian industry, and if you're 407 00:23:10,351 --> 00:23:14,911 Speaker 2: killing Berry to try and get the secrets of the company, 408 00:23:15,591 --> 00:23:17,871 Speaker 2: BlackBerry would be a good place to start. Barry had 409 00:23:17,911 --> 00:23:20,232 Speaker 2: a password of one, two, three four on his phone, 410 00:23:20,671 --> 00:23:24,272 Speaker 2: which was quite well known. They're not interested in anything 411 00:23:24,391 --> 00:23:28,272 Speaker 2: like that. Computers remain at the home of the iPads 412 00:23:28,272 --> 00:23:31,792 Speaker 2: I mentioned. Nothing is taken as far as anybody knows. 413 00:23:31,871 --> 00:23:37,032 Speaker 2: So my opinion, this is a murder of two people 414 00:23:37,512 --> 00:23:40,792 Speaker 2: that they wanted dead. And then the question is obviously 415 00:23:41,151 --> 00:23:42,272 Speaker 2: who did it? 416 00:23:42,311 --> 00:23:45,871 Speaker 1: In comes the internet theories as to who this walking 417 00:23:45,911 --> 00:23:49,152 Speaker 1: man is and what his motives might have beaten. Can 418 00:23:49,192 --> 00:23:53,151 Speaker 1: we talk about the idea that maybe he's a contract 419 00:23:53,272 --> 00:23:56,311 Speaker 1: killer and why he might have been contracted to take 420 00:23:56,351 --> 00:23:58,552 Speaker 1: out Barry and Honey. 421 00:23:58,671 --> 00:24:02,271 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't believe that the walking man is 422 00:24:02,311 --> 00:24:06,071 Speaker 2: the killer. I think he's a lookout and that's a Kevin. 423 00:24:07,151 --> 00:24:10,071 Speaker 2: But as far as the Internet, I mean, the internet 424 00:24:10,111 --> 00:24:13,591 Speaker 2: has a lot of theories. The contract killer one I 425 00:24:13,992 --> 00:24:17,512 Speaker 2: have discounted because Barry had a lot of business enemies, 426 00:24:17,512 --> 00:24:19,911 Speaker 2: There's no doubt about it. There's a book on the 427 00:24:19,952 --> 00:24:23,272 Speaker 2: pharmaceutical wars from years ago, and Barry is quoted in 428 00:24:23,311 --> 00:24:25,831 Speaker 2: it saying, I know I've got enemies. If they want 429 00:24:25,871 --> 00:24:27,631 Speaker 2: to kill me, they can shoot me coming out of 430 00:24:27,671 --> 00:24:31,272 Speaker 2: my office at ten thirty or eleven at night. Barry 431 00:24:31,272 --> 00:24:34,071 Speaker 2: comes home early this night for a reason that I 432 00:24:34,111 --> 00:24:37,071 Speaker 2: don't know. It's very unusual for him to come home early. 433 00:24:37,151 --> 00:24:40,831 Speaker 2: They're both in the house. I think that a contract 434 00:24:40,952 --> 00:24:44,391 Speaker 2: killer would not kill somebody in their house. There's too 435 00:24:44,472 --> 00:24:48,911 Speaker 2: much a danger of being captured, of leaving something forensic 436 00:24:49,552 --> 00:24:52,712 Speaker 2: on them. I think these are amateurs and the Internet 437 00:24:52,752 --> 00:24:53,071 Speaker 2: is wrong. 438 00:24:53,671 --> 00:24:56,231 Speaker 1: Let's pivot a little and talk about the family, because 439 00:24:56,272 --> 00:25:02,032 Speaker 1: they have been scrutinized by Internet theorists as potentially being 440 00:25:02,071 --> 00:25:06,552 Speaker 1: involved in barryon Honey's death. So I guess the first 441 00:25:06,591 --> 00:25:11,151 Speaker 1: of cole is the ones who've kind of outwardly said 442 00:25:11,391 --> 00:25:13,631 Speaker 1: that they were happy that they were dead, and that 443 00:25:13,831 --> 00:25:18,992 Speaker 1: is the cousins. So they are the children of Barry's 444 00:25:19,071 --> 00:25:24,951 Speaker 1: uncle who passed away and whose company Barry purchased because 445 00:25:24,792 --> 00:25:27,512 Speaker 1: they were little children when their father died. 446 00:25:27,952 --> 00:25:28,431 Speaker 2: That's great. 447 00:25:28,472 --> 00:25:32,391 Speaker 1: So Barry bought his uncle's company. Can you explain what 448 00:25:32,472 --> 00:25:35,911 Speaker 1: happened after that into why the cousins were very unhappy 449 00:25:36,192 --> 00:25:37,151 Speaker 1: with Barry and Honey. 450 00:25:38,431 --> 00:25:43,711 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's four four male cousins of Barry and Yes. 451 00:25:43,831 --> 00:25:47,952 Speaker 2: In the nineteen sixties, when Barry bought their father's company, 452 00:25:48,472 --> 00:25:52,232 Speaker 2: Empire Labs, which is a very small generic firm at 453 00:25:52,232 --> 00:25:54,671 Speaker 2: a time when generics were not big in the world. 454 00:25:54,752 --> 00:25:57,752 Speaker 2: It was just starting out, so great business opportunity, which 455 00:25:57,752 --> 00:26:00,272 Speaker 2: is why Barry bought it. Those kids were all under 456 00:26:00,311 --> 00:26:03,111 Speaker 2: the age of ten. The one that you'll see most 457 00:26:03,192 --> 00:26:06,191 Speaker 2: often on the internet is Carrie Wench, who is the 458 00:26:06,631 --> 00:26:09,232 Speaker 2: kind of being the main spokesperson for the four of them, 459 00:26:09,232 --> 00:26:11,191 Speaker 2: and he's somebody that I have come to know fairly 460 00:26:11,232 --> 00:26:15,511 Speaker 2: well over the years. So Barry over as they grow up, he, 461 00:26:16,591 --> 00:26:20,351 Speaker 2: according to Carrie, does look out for the cousins. He 462 00:26:20,391 --> 00:26:24,632 Speaker 2: gives them over the next couple of decades about fifteen 463 00:26:24,712 --> 00:26:30,311 Speaker 2: million dollars in total. That's in buying homes, cottages, cars, 464 00:26:30,391 --> 00:26:34,272 Speaker 2: things like that, funding the business of one of them, Jeffrey. 465 00:26:34,671 --> 00:26:38,351 Speaker 2: And you know Barry's account would be I did everything 466 00:26:38,631 --> 00:26:42,472 Speaker 2: to help them. They all struggled with various issues, either 467 00:26:42,512 --> 00:26:46,671 Speaker 2: mental health issues or drug issues in the early nineteen nineties. 468 00:26:47,151 --> 00:26:50,831 Speaker 2: One of them is looking through a court file and 469 00:26:50,871 --> 00:26:54,512 Speaker 2: it's the court file related to the estate of their 470 00:26:54,591 --> 00:26:57,831 Speaker 2: late father, and he's wondering, you know, how did Barry 471 00:26:57,831 --> 00:27:01,551 Speaker 2: become so successful. There's just all these stories to the 472 00:27:01,552 --> 00:27:04,391 Speaker 2: family that, you know, Barry bought their dad's company. And 473 00:27:04,431 --> 00:27:08,992 Speaker 2: he finds a document which really brightens his day, and 474 00:27:09,232 --> 00:27:12,712 Speaker 2: he and his siblings start talking about it, and they 475 00:27:12,712 --> 00:27:15,991 Speaker 2: believe that this document indicates that they are entitled to 476 00:27:16,351 --> 00:27:21,631 Speaker 2: a billion dollars, one fifth of Barry's new company's worth. 477 00:27:22,192 --> 00:27:25,351 Speaker 2: And they go to court and they sue Barry, and 478 00:27:26,111 --> 00:27:29,831 Speaker 2: they lose their case just before the murders. They lose 479 00:27:29,871 --> 00:27:33,551 Speaker 2: it in September. The murders are in December, but just 480 00:27:33,671 --> 00:27:37,071 Speaker 2: a couple of days before the murders, the judge in 481 00:27:37,192 --> 00:27:40,951 Speaker 2: this civil case between Barry and the cousins, the judge 482 00:27:40,992 --> 00:27:44,591 Speaker 2: awards legal costs to Barry. Now, Barry doesn't need three 483 00:27:44,671 --> 00:27:48,152 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars. He'd wanted a million, but the judge said, look, 484 00:27:48,151 --> 00:27:50,151 Speaker 2: these guys don't have a lot of money. But he 485 00:27:50,311 --> 00:27:53,871 Speaker 2: makes this award. And I believe this is part of 486 00:27:53,871 --> 00:27:56,391 Speaker 2: what I call the perfect storm theory all the different 487 00:27:56,431 --> 00:27:59,952 Speaker 2: things that were happening leading up to the murders, which would, 488 00:28:00,071 --> 00:28:04,912 Speaker 2: in the murderer's eyes, would give red herrings. Now, Carrie, 489 00:28:05,391 --> 00:28:09,912 Speaker 2: the main spokesperson of the four cousins, doesn't help himself 490 00:28:09,952 --> 00:28:13,631 Speaker 2: by going on national television and talking to me, but 491 00:28:13,792 --> 00:28:16,271 Speaker 2: sometimes TV does have quite an impact. He gives an 492 00:28:16,272 --> 00:28:20,151 Speaker 2: interview in which he says, I used to fantasize about 493 00:28:20,712 --> 00:28:23,191 Speaker 2: cutting Barry's head off and rolling it down the sidewalk 494 00:28:23,272 --> 00:28:28,591 Speaker 2: at Barry's company. And Carrie gives an interview to the police, 495 00:28:28,831 --> 00:28:31,951 Speaker 2: given interviews to me and many others, and he says 496 00:28:31,992 --> 00:28:33,792 Speaker 2: he didn't do it. In fact, he thinks it's a 497 00:28:33,871 --> 00:28:37,071 Speaker 2: murder suicide and it's a massive police cover up. So 498 00:28:37,752 --> 00:28:42,032 Speaker 2: that's the cousins, And you know Carrie. You'll see Carrie 499 00:28:42,032 --> 00:28:46,832 Speaker 2: pop up on Reddit or web slews occasionally. He's quite 500 00:28:46,872 --> 00:28:49,752 Speaker 2: fascinated by this himself. He's got his own theory and 501 00:28:49,832 --> 00:28:52,512 Speaker 2: he's entitled to them. 502 00:28:52,832 --> 00:28:55,912 Speaker 1: Next, we talk about the Sherman children and why some 503 00:28:55,992 --> 00:29:02,711 Speaker 1: of them were considered potential suspects. Let's talk about the children. 504 00:29:03,512 --> 00:29:10,112 Speaker 1: So the Shermans have four children, and they have all 505 00:29:10,152 --> 00:29:12,872 Speaker 1: got their own sort of individual stories about their relationship 506 00:29:12,872 --> 00:29:15,951 Speaker 1: with their parents and their parents' money. Can you just 507 00:29:15,952 --> 00:29:18,472 Speaker 1: talk us through the four kids and sort of at 508 00:29:18,472 --> 00:29:21,392 Speaker 1: the time of Barry and Honey's death, while some of 509 00:29:21,431 --> 00:29:25,231 Speaker 1: them perhaps have been considered as potential suspects. 510 00:29:25,911 --> 00:29:28,992 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first child Blarren is Lauren in the 511 00:29:29,072 --> 00:29:32,191 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, and Lauren is the only one who is 512 00:29:32,232 --> 00:29:35,392 Speaker 2: a biological child of both Barry and Honey. Honey had 513 00:29:35,431 --> 00:29:38,552 Speaker 2: a series of miscarriages leading up to Lauren's birth and after, 514 00:29:39,152 --> 00:29:43,272 Speaker 2: and so they made the determination that they would try surrogacy, 515 00:29:43,352 --> 00:29:47,632 Speaker 2: which was quite new to Canada in the late seventies 516 00:29:47,632 --> 00:29:52,112 Speaker 2: early eighties. Bury, through some lawyer, I think, found three 517 00:29:52,192 --> 00:29:55,952 Speaker 2: different women in the United States, three different states, and 518 00:29:56,072 --> 00:29:58,032 Speaker 2: those are the mothers. I don't know who they are. 519 00:29:58,392 --> 00:30:01,392 Speaker 2: There's a lot of tension over the years between Honey 520 00:30:01,552 --> 00:30:04,672 Speaker 2: and her kids, and they would say to her very 521 00:30:04,712 --> 00:30:09,392 Speaker 2: meanly at times, you're not our mother, and in three 522 00:30:09,431 --> 00:30:13,552 Speaker 2: of them that was the truth. Biologically, the pecking order 523 00:30:13,552 --> 00:30:16,152 Speaker 2: in the family was Barry first, the four kids, and 524 00:30:16,192 --> 00:30:23,352 Speaker 2: then Honey, and so the kids all got different money. 525 00:30:23,911 --> 00:30:27,711 Speaker 2: The two eldest, Lauren and Jonathan, got more than the 526 00:30:27,752 --> 00:30:31,671 Speaker 2: two youngest. One of the two youngest doesn't have a 527 00:30:31,712 --> 00:30:34,552 Speaker 2: great interest in money. The other one probably would have 528 00:30:34,592 --> 00:30:37,471 Speaker 2: liked to get some more. One of the sisters and 529 00:30:37,512 --> 00:30:40,592 Speaker 2: this has caused a big rift in the family Alexandra. 530 00:30:41,352 --> 00:30:45,671 Speaker 2: She has told police that she believes her brother, Jonathan 531 00:30:46,152 --> 00:30:50,432 Speaker 2: is somehow involved. Jonathan's an interesting gentleman. At the time, 532 00:30:50,512 --> 00:30:53,751 Speaker 2: he was thirty five when this happened. He was the 533 00:30:53,752 --> 00:30:56,552 Speaker 2: only one of the Shermans that had an interest in business. 534 00:30:56,911 --> 00:30:59,992 Speaker 2: He did not want to work in the pharmaceutical business. 535 00:31:00,352 --> 00:31:03,112 Speaker 2: He wanted to have his own business, and he chose 536 00:31:03,192 --> 00:31:06,472 Speaker 2: the personal self storage industry. He has a company called 537 00:31:06,512 --> 00:31:09,872 Speaker 2: Green Storage and Barry we call the Bank of Barry. 538 00:31:09,952 --> 00:31:12,792 Speaker 2: What I've heard is called the Bank of Berry funded 539 00:31:13,072 --> 00:31:15,951 Speaker 2: him well over one hundred million dollars over the years. 540 00:31:16,431 --> 00:31:20,832 Speaker 2: And these storage companies are you see them around Ontario. 541 00:31:20,872 --> 00:31:25,192 Speaker 2: A couple in Toronto and good real estate. I think 542 00:31:25,472 --> 00:31:29,632 Speaker 2: it's possible he's just assembling these four real estate anyways, 543 00:31:29,872 --> 00:31:34,072 Speaker 2: But a year into the murder investigation, his sister Alexandra 544 00:31:34,272 --> 00:31:37,592 Speaker 2: tells police that she thinks her brothers involved, and I 545 00:31:37,792 --> 00:31:41,511 Speaker 2: end up going to interview Jonathan one day. It was 546 00:31:42,232 --> 00:31:44,792 Speaker 2: one of the more interesting interviews of my forty year career. 547 00:31:45,272 --> 00:31:50,552 Speaker 2: We met in a garage north of Toronto during the pandemic, 548 00:31:51,472 --> 00:31:53,552 Speaker 2: unheated garage. It was in the middle of the winter, 549 00:31:53,712 --> 00:31:57,471 Speaker 2: freezing cool. And one of the things he provided me 550 00:31:58,232 --> 00:32:00,911 Speaker 2: is something that might explain why somebody would think that 551 00:32:00,992 --> 00:32:03,471 Speaker 2: he is the murder. It's a series of emails he 552 00:32:03,552 --> 00:32:06,271 Speaker 2: had with his dad, Barry, just leading up to the murders. 553 00:32:06,671 --> 00:32:09,672 Speaker 2: Barry is saying, I want fifty to sixty million dollars 554 00:32:09,712 --> 00:32:11,272 Speaker 2: of the money I gave you. I want it back, 555 00:32:11,352 --> 00:32:13,632 Speaker 2: I need it back now. When will you do this? 556 00:32:14,072 --> 00:32:16,951 Speaker 2: Tell me when? And this is just before Jonathan and 557 00:32:16,992 --> 00:32:20,792 Speaker 2: his husband leave for Japan, which is a few weeks 558 00:32:20,832 --> 00:32:23,671 Speaker 2: before the murders. And then Jonathan I said, look it, 559 00:32:24,232 --> 00:32:26,312 Speaker 2: you know you're the one. And Jonathan's the one who 560 00:32:26,312 --> 00:32:29,152 Speaker 2: tells me his sister thinks he's a suspect. And I said, 561 00:32:29,152 --> 00:32:32,112 Speaker 2: are you involved in the murders of your parents? And 562 00:32:32,112 --> 00:32:35,152 Speaker 2: he says, he makes a number of interesting statements. One is, 563 00:32:35,752 --> 00:32:37,872 Speaker 2: I don't know anyone who could plan a murder in 564 00:32:37,952 --> 00:32:41,872 Speaker 2: three weeks. When I put to him this the emails 565 00:32:41,911 --> 00:32:43,592 Speaker 2: which he's given me, I mean I wouldn't have him 566 00:32:43,632 --> 00:32:45,832 Speaker 2: without him. The email is saying that his dad was 567 00:32:45,872 --> 00:32:48,392 Speaker 2: trying to get money back, and then Jonathan doesn't give 568 00:32:48,392 --> 00:32:52,751 Speaker 2: the money back. He said, that's how billionaires converse with 569 00:32:52,792 --> 00:32:55,552 Speaker 2: their sons. So and he says he had nothing to 570 00:32:55,592 --> 00:32:58,712 Speaker 2: do with it and loved his parents. I asked him, 571 00:32:58,911 --> 00:33:01,472 Speaker 2: you know, have the police looked at you? And he said, 572 00:33:02,072 --> 00:33:03,832 Speaker 2: I would hope they would look at all four of us, 573 00:33:03,832 --> 00:33:06,112 Speaker 2: because that's what they should do. He has his own 574 00:33:06,431 --> 00:33:06,671 Speaker 2: or of. 575 00:33:06,671 --> 00:33:10,352 Speaker 1: Course, well if you look at it, so Barry in 576 00:33:10,472 --> 00:33:14,991 Speaker 1: his will leaves everything to Honey. But then Honey doesn't 577 00:33:14,992 --> 00:33:17,872 Speaker 1: have a will in order to distribute that money that 578 00:33:17,911 --> 00:33:20,431 Speaker 1: would have been hers if it had just been Barry 579 00:33:20,431 --> 00:33:23,671 Speaker 1: who's been murdered. So do the children just get all 580 00:33:23,671 --> 00:33:24,872 Speaker 1: that money in the inheritance? 581 00:33:26,352 --> 00:33:28,512 Speaker 2: They do? And I should say that I believe Honey 582 00:33:28,512 --> 00:33:31,392 Speaker 2: did have a will. Somebody that I interviewed to was 583 00:33:31,392 --> 00:33:35,912 Speaker 2: somebody that's a medical person that dealt with Honey just 584 00:33:36,112 --> 00:33:39,712 Speaker 2: a week and a half before, remembers Honey very clearly 585 00:33:39,832 --> 00:33:44,392 Speaker 2: saying that I'm just getting my will updated. So that's 586 00:33:44,431 --> 00:33:47,592 Speaker 2: pretty interesting. But no will has ever found. What happened 587 00:33:48,112 --> 00:33:52,032 Speaker 2: is it's a very simple will. There's no specific money 588 00:33:52,072 --> 00:33:55,112 Speaker 2: for charity. Or anything like that, but all the kids 589 00:33:55,152 --> 00:33:58,632 Speaker 2: at age thirty five get one quarter of the wealth. 590 00:33:59,112 --> 00:34:02,392 Speaker 2: The financial press always has said the Barrier is worth 591 00:34:02,472 --> 00:34:07,072 Speaker 2: just under five billion dollars. I understand my sources that 592 00:34:07,112 --> 00:34:09,352 Speaker 2: it's closure to ten billion, but a lot of that 593 00:34:09,431 --> 00:34:12,152 Speaker 2: money is salted at various places around the world. But yeah, 594 00:34:12,192 --> 00:34:15,312 Speaker 2: and a long way to answer your question, they're billionaires now, 595 00:34:15,392 --> 00:34:16,071 Speaker 2: all four of them. 596 00:34:16,592 --> 00:34:20,031 Speaker 1: I guess you've already touched on Barry's business practices that 597 00:34:20,112 --> 00:34:23,832 Speaker 1: potentially could have made him a target. But he was 598 00:34:23,872 --> 00:34:27,152 Speaker 1: involved in a lot of lawsuits in the lead up 599 00:34:27,232 --> 00:34:29,392 Speaker 1: to his death. And I mean, for those who don't 600 00:34:29,471 --> 00:34:35,071 Speaker 1: understand how generic pharmaceuticals work, you're making low cost versions 601 00:34:35,152 --> 00:34:38,672 Speaker 1: of drugs that big farmer have been spending millions of 602 00:34:38,752 --> 00:34:41,511 Speaker 1: dollars developing and then hoping to recoup that money, and 603 00:34:41,551 --> 00:34:46,352 Speaker 1: they sell it. And so Barry's accused of stealing some 604 00:34:46,431 --> 00:34:51,232 Speaker 1: of those formulas for those drugs, amongst various other things. 605 00:34:51,471 --> 00:34:54,471 Speaker 1: Have they ever tied any of Barry's business stealings into 606 00:34:54,511 --> 00:34:55,951 Speaker 1: potential motives. 607 00:34:56,112 --> 00:34:59,111 Speaker 2: Barry is At the time of his murder, people were 608 00:34:59,112 --> 00:35:03,032 Speaker 2: saying he's the most litigious person in Canada. That's true, 609 00:35:03,272 --> 00:35:08,872 Speaker 2: but the numbers are ram up because in Canada, the 610 00:35:08,872 --> 00:35:12,431 Speaker 2: way it works with a generic pharmaceutical, if you want 611 00:35:12,471 --> 00:35:14,792 Speaker 2: to break a patent, you have to do it legally, 612 00:35:15,272 --> 00:35:17,232 Speaker 2: and you can only do that through the court system. 613 00:35:17,352 --> 00:35:21,151 Speaker 2: So if you go to the electronic registry you would 614 00:35:21,152 --> 00:35:24,712 Speaker 2: see his name and his company many times. That's just 615 00:35:24,712 --> 00:35:27,631 Speaker 2: because he's the biggest and he has to go to court. 616 00:35:27,712 --> 00:35:31,551 Speaker 2: So it's not the most litigious in terms of him 617 00:35:31,752 --> 00:35:35,312 Speaker 2: suing people, you know, claiming they owe him money. There 618 00:35:35,392 --> 00:35:37,671 Speaker 2: are some cases like that. In fact, the people who 619 00:35:37,752 --> 00:35:40,551 Speaker 2: built the house that he ultimately died in he bankrupted 620 00:35:40,551 --> 00:35:44,392 Speaker 2: the contractors by claiming in court and a judge agreed 621 00:35:44,392 --> 00:35:48,312 Speaker 2: with him that they screwed him by not having a 622 00:35:48,632 --> 00:35:51,832 Speaker 2: doing a good enough job on the contracting. So he 623 00:35:51,911 --> 00:35:54,191 Speaker 2: is a tough guy when it comes to things like that. 624 00:35:54,752 --> 00:35:57,591 Speaker 2: As far as the businesses, I mean, I've heard lots 625 00:35:57,632 --> 00:36:00,631 Speaker 2: of people say big Farmer rubbed Berry out. To me, 626 00:36:00,712 --> 00:36:04,551 Speaker 2: that doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Barry had 627 00:36:04,551 --> 00:36:09,992 Speaker 2: a big company by Canadian stand. The next biggest company, Teva, 628 00:36:10,312 --> 00:36:12,832 Speaker 2: which you'll see in some of the internets lose. It's 629 00:36:12,832 --> 00:36:17,352 Speaker 2: an Israeli company that bought Barry's big Canadian rival many 630 00:36:17,392 --> 00:36:21,431 Speaker 2: years before Teva's ten times the size of Appitects and 631 00:36:21,471 --> 00:36:24,791 Speaker 2: Apptex kept going after Barry died. Now, the kids did 632 00:36:25,632 --> 00:36:27,872 Speaker 2: sell it off, for sure, they didn't want to be 633 00:36:27,911 --> 00:36:32,072 Speaker 2: in the pharmer business, But Appitects is still a thriving company, 634 00:36:32,232 --> 00:36:34,991 Speaker 2: still based in Toronto, and I don't think a lot 635 00:36:35,152 --> 00:36:38,512 Speaker 2: changed in the market share. I also think that big 636 00:36:38,752 --> 00:36:43,951 Speaker 2: pharmaceutical companies, they sue, they don't kill, and I know 637 00:36:44,031 --> 00:36:47,792 Speaker 2: that the internet is alive with suggestions that they do kill, 638 00:36:47,911 --> 00:36:50,832 Speaker 2: but I've never seen any evidence of that. And I 639 00:36:50,951 --> 00:36:55,511 Speaker 2: try and keep to the facts, you know, which is 640 00:36:55,551 --> 00:36:57,832 Speaker 2: I think the best way to behave in some of 641 00:36:57,832 --> 00:37:00,872 Speaker 2: these cases. But it's interesting reading these theories. 642 00:37:01,431 --> 00:37:04,352 Speaker 1: I think something is really interesting in amongst all this 643 00:37:04,392 --> 00:37:09,832 Speaker 1: story is the housewherean honey died, because after they died, 644 00:37:10,672 --> 00:37:14,471 Speaker 1: it was really just left there for quite some time afterwards, 645 00:37:14,632 --> 00:37:17,752 Speaker 1: no one lived in it. It was essentially abandoned with 646 00:37:17,832 --> 00:37:20,192 Speaker 1: all of their belongings still inside. It seemed that their 647 00:37:20,272 --> 00:37:23,792 Speaker 1: children didn't want to go and sort through their parents' 648 00:37:23,792 --> 00:37:27,352 Speaker 1: things or take away any mementos or memories of their parents. 649 00:37:27,991 --> 00:37:28,511 Speaker 1: Is that true? 650 00:37:28,551 --> 00:37:34,471 Speaker 2: You think, yeah, the kids did go there. The photos 651 00:37:34,511 --> 00:37:37,832 Speaker 2: I have that were taken just before the house was 652 00:37:37,911 --> 00:37:40,951 Speaker 2: knocked down by the kids. They had legal authority to 653 00:37:40,951 --> 00:37:42,751 Speaker 2: do it because they were the owners, and they got 654 00:37:42,872 --> 00:37:45,192 Speaker 2: the city to allow them to knock it down. By 655 00:37:45,232 --> 00:37:47,111 Speaker 2: the way, they wanted it knocked down because they said 656 00:37:47,112 --> 00:37:50,192 Speaker 2: to the city, we can't know that this place is 657 00:37:50,232 --> 00:37:53,431 Speaker 2: still there. The memories are too difficult for us. I 658 00:37:53,471 --> 00:37:56,951 Speaker 2: think they didn't want somebody to make a documentary going 659 00:37:57,031 --> 00:37:57,671 Speaker 2: through that house. 660 00:37:58,152 --> 00:38:01,111 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, an urban explorer did go through it at 661 00:38:01,112 --> 00:38:03,431 Speaker 1: one stage, though, didn't he And he took some photos 662 00:38:03,431 --> 00:38:06,072 Speaker 1: which then he was threatened over I understand. 663 00:38:05,951 --> 00:38:12,872 Speaker 2: Not threatened. So I encountered this, this individual and urban explorer, 664 00:38:12,872 --> 00:38:15,792 Speaker 2: and he went in a literally two days before the 665 00:38:15,792 --> 00:38:18,151 Speaker 2: house was knocked down. He'd been watching it. He went in. 666 00:38:18,511 --> 00:38:20,511 Speaker 2: He had a really bad feeling when he went in. 667 00:38:21,031 --> 00:38:26,192 Speaker 2: And I have his photos, but he hasn't given me 668 00:38:26,232 --> 00:38:28,551 Speaker 2: permission to run them. And why doesn't he want them 669 00:38:28,752 --> 00:38:32,032 Speaker 2: public because he says, I'm afraid that I'll be charged 670 00:38:32,031 --> 00:38:34,832 Speaker 2: by the police with trespassing, and he was trespassing. But 671 00:38:35,392 --> 00:38:38,911 Speaker 2: it's an interesting look at the house because it's a 672 00:38:38,951 --> 00:38:41,911 Speaker 2: house that's trapped in time. I mean, very little had 673 00:38:41,991 --> 00:38:46,551 Speaker 2: changed since that day the bodies were discovered. There's pictures 674 00:38:46,872 --> 00:38:49,792 Speaker 2: on the walls and you know, stuck to bulden boards 675 00:38:49,832 --> 00:38:53,712 Speaker 2: of a Baryon Honey, you know, you know, cuddling together. 676 00:38:54,112 --> 00:38:56,911 Speaker 2: There's nice family pictures and as far as I know, 677 00:38:57,072 --> 00:38:58,471 Speaker 2: that went down with the wrecking ball. 678 00:38:58,792 --> 00:39:01,632 Speaker 1: So everything inside that house that belonged to Baryon Honey 679 00:39:02,232 --> 00:39:03,752 Speaker 1: was demolished with the house. 680 00:39:03,991 --> 00:39:07,752 Speaker 2: Yeah, including I think the ulptures that are in the basement, 681 00:39:07,792 --> 00:39:12,232 Speaker 2: which I think are part of this case. The Shermans 682 00:39:12,352 --> 00:39:17,031 Speaker 2: liked unusual art, and they have two American American sculpture made, 683 00:39:17,072 --> 00:39:21,471 Speaker 2: these two life size sculptures using garbage, parts of skateboards, 684 00:39:21,511 --> 00:39:24,872 Speaker 2: things like that. One is clearly male, one's clearly female. 685 00:39:25,232 --> 00:39:29,752 Speaker 2: And they are in a seated position, not too dissimilar 686 00:39:29,792 --> 00:39:33,112 Speaker 2: to how the Sherman's looked. And they're in the basement 687 00:39:33,632 --> 00:39:36,511 Speaker 2: just before at least just before the murders, and I 688 00:39:36,511 --> 00:39:38,751 Speaker 2: think they're probably buried under all that rubble right now. 689 00:39:38,792 --> 00:39:40,591 Speaker 2: The pool was of course filled in, and there was 690 00:39:40,592 --> 00:39:44,232 Speaker 2: another beautiful pool outside. And now that house, it's changed 691 00:39:44,272 --> 00:39:47,272 Speaker 2: hands twice, it's still got the what we call hoarding 692 00:39:47,352 --> 00:39:49,911 Speaker 2: around it, black hoarding a bit of an eyesore on 693 00:39:49,951 --> 00:39:53,072 Speaker 2: the street, and so far nobody has decided to build 694 00:39:53,072 --> 00:39:53,632 Speaker 2: a new house. 695 00:39:54,471 --> 00:39:58,632 Speaker 1: So in amongst the facts, the things that you have discovered, 696 00:39:58,632 --> 00:40:01,151 Speaker 1: the things that you've reported on over the years, and 697 00:40:01,312 --> 00:40:04,511 Speaker 1: all of these internet theories about potentially who is involved, 698 00:40:05,072 --> 00:40:08,432 Speaker 1: all the theories that are held by the family members 699 00:40:09,031 --> 00:40:13,991 Speaker 1: and others, is there one that you think prevails over 700 00:40:14,072 --> 00:40:17,272 Speaker 1: all of them where we stand currently, like eight years 701 00:40:17,352 --> 00:40:18,511 Speaker 1: nearly after they did. 702 00:40:20,272 --> 00:40:22,631 Speaker 2: Well. So I'll tell you what I say when I'm 703 00:40:22,632 --> 00:40:25,232 Speaker 2: asked this question. Should I ever be able to reveal 704 00:40:25,272 --> 00:40:26,911 Speaker 2: who I think did it, It's going to be in 705 00:40:27,551 --> 00:40:31,511 Speaker 2: my newspaper, The Toronto Star. Somebody said that I have 706 00:40:31,632 --> 00:40:35,592 Speaker 2: given people in my reporting the ingredients to make a pizza, 707 00:40:35,632 --> 00:40:38,152 Speaker 2: but I'm asking people for now to make their own pizza. 708 00:40:38,551 --> 00:40:41,832 Speaker 2: The theory that I have is I believe the same 709 00:40:41,951 --> 00:40:45,551 Speaker 2: theory that the Toronto Police have. They just can't prove it, 710 00:40:45,792 --> 00:40:48,031 Speaker 2: and I can't prove it, and I don't have the 711 00:40:48,072 --> 00:40:51,992 Speaker 2: resources that they have. This was, according to the police. 712 00:40:52,192 --> 00:40:55,511 Speaker 2: You know, a crime of money, and money is the 713 00:40:55,551 --> 00:41:00,152 Speaker 2: motive here not surprising giving someone a billionaire. I think 714 00:41:00,471 --> 00:41:04,151 Speaker 2: there was inside knowledge of the Sherman's movements Barry comes 715 00:41:04,192 --> 00:41:08,032 Speaker 2: home early on that Wednesday night. He never comes home early. 716 00:41:08,471 --> 00:41:11,591 Speaker 2: He parks in the garage. He doesn't usually park downstairs. 717 00:41:11,592 --> 00:41:14,392 Speaker 2: That would give the killers a lot easier to get 718 00:41:14,392 --> 00:41:17,352 Speaker 2: a two hundred pound man into the basement swimming pool 719 00:41:17,551 --> 00:41:20,832 Speaker 2: if he comes in to the basement underground garage. The 720 00:41:20,832 --> 00:41:23,232 Speaker 2: Shermans have nothing. They're killed on a Wednesday. They got 721 00:41:23,232 --> 00:41:26,272 Speaker 2: nothing going on on the Thursday. Some key people are 722 00:41:26,272 --> 00:41:30,032 Speaker 2: out of town. Aunt Mary, the sister is very second 723 00:41:30,072 --> 00:41:32,192 Speaker 2: in command, is away down in New York with his 724 00:41:32,232 --> 00:41:35,671 Speaker 2: wife at a concert. There's no cleaning lady coming on 725 00:41:35,712 --> 00:41:38,832 Speaker 2: a Thursday. I think that somebody knew that this was 726 00:41:38,872 --> 00:41:42,431 Speaker 2: the day that would give them some breathing, breathing time 727 00:41:42,471 --> 00:41:44,951 Speaker 2: to get away. Now, I don't think it's because they 728 00:41:44,991 --> 00:41:47,352 Speaker 2: wanted the contract killer to get on a plane. I 729 00:41:47,471 --> 00:41:49,472 Speaker 2: just think they wanted I think they wanted a stage 730 00:41:49,632 --> 00:41:51,951 Speaker 2: like it was a murder suicide. And then they got 731 00:41:52,072 --> 00:41:54,431 Speaker 2: very lucky because they didn't get the A team, They 732 00:41:54,431 --> 00:41:55,431 Speaker 2: didn't even get the B team. 733 00:41:55,471 --> 00:41:58,431 Speaker 1: At the Toronto Police, with what you know and what 734 00:41:58,471 --> 00:42:01,031 Speaker 1: you believe the Toronto Police know, do you think it's 735 00:42:01,072 --> 00:42:02,671 Speaker 1: possible that we'll ever solve this one? 736 00:42:04,511 --> 00:42:07,752 Speaker 2: It was solved as an interesting choice of words. I 737 00:42:07,832 --> 00:42:11,352 Speaker 2: think the police believe they have solved it, but they 738 00:42:11,392 --> 00:42:15,952 Speaker 2: can't prove it. You know, these days, I think defense 739 00:42:15,991 --> 00:42:19,271 Speaker 2: lawyers are getting better and better. This case has been 740 00:42:19,592 --> 00:42:23,911 Speaker 2: muddled from start to finish, and so I believe that 741 00:42:24,112 --> 00:42:29,551 Speaker 2: the Toronto Police have decided that, with legal assistance of 742 00:42:29,592 --> 00:42:32,472 Speaker 2: a Crown attorney, that they're not laying a charge until 743 00:42:32,511 --> 00:42:34,991 Speaker 2: they are absolutely sure that it'll stand up in court. 744 00:42:35,112 --> 00:42:37,312 Speaker 2: So I think they're still trying to build a case. 745 00:42:37,991 --> 00:42:42,672 Speaker 2: They've recently turned to artificial intelligence some help. I think 746 00:42:43,152 --> 00:42:45,471 Speaker 2: the police would be wise to hand this over to 747 00:42:45,511 --> 00:42:48,991 Speaker 2: a new investigator with fresh eyes. They don't seem to 748 00:42:49,031 --> 00:42:50,631 Speaker 2: want to do it. They just want to have this 749 00:42:50,792 --> 00:42:54,431 Speaker 2: one guy who's now down to half his day's detective. 750 00:42:54,632 --> 00:42:59,992 Speaker 2: Yim just plodding away, occasionally firing off a search warrant, 751 00:43:00,031 --> 00:43:04,272 Speaker 2: getting some business information. And I think it's a cold 752 00:43:04,352 --> 00:43:09,272 Speaker 2: case that somebody smarter than the current people need to 753 00:43:10,152 --> 00:43:10,872 Speaker 2: enliven again. 754 00:43:11,392 --> 00:43:14,152 Speaker 1: Just finally, when's the last time there was anything breaking 755 00:43:14,192 --> 00:43:16,392 Speaker 1: in this case? And has there been any new developments 756 00:43:16,431 --> 00:43:17,312 Speaker 1: in recent years? 757 00:43:18,112 --> 00:43:21,431 Speaker 2: Well, the developments come usually every six months. So I'm 758 00:43:21,471 --> 00:43:23,231 Speaker 2: not a lawyer, but I go to court and I 759 00:43:23,272 --> 00:43:26,272 Speaker 2: am allowed to cross examine the detective to try and 760 00:43:26,392 --> 00:43:30,991 Speaker 2: unseal information. So I mean, I'm looking in a rear 761 00:43:31,072 --> 00:43:34,431 Speaker 2: view mirror at the police investigation and getting these thousands 762 00:43:34,511 --> 00:43:38,471 Speaker 2: of pages, you know, bit by bit unsealed. There's been 763 00:43:38,511 --> 00:43:42,272 Speaker 2: nothing from the police other than four years into the case, 764 00:43:42,392 --> 00:43:45,631 Speaker 2: the revelation of this walking man. There's been nothing like that. 765 00:43:46,312 --> 00:43:48,832 Speaker 2: I do have a couple of people who want to 766 00:43:48,832 --> 00:43:50,991 Speaker 2: say they want to speak to me. They've hired lawyers 767 00:43:51,471 --> 00:43:55,031 Speaker 2: and we're trying to arrange a way that they will 768 00:43:55,072 --> 00:43:58,912 Speaker 2: be protected and they can pass on information to me. Claire. 769 00:43:58,991 --> 00:44:02,992 Speaker 2: It could be, you know, complete rumors that they're passing 770 00:44:03,031 --> 00:44:08,111 Speaker 2: on one of them. I find quite intriguing. But as 771 00:44:08,152 --> 00:44:10,791 Speaker 2: far as a break in the case, when I've asked 772 00:44:10,792 --> 00:44:13,272 Speaker 2: the police that they say they haven't had any breaks. 773 00:44:13,272 --> 00:44:16,031 Speaker 2: They're waiting for that person to walk in the door 774 00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:19,792 Speaker 2: and say I heard something at a bar and I'm 775 00:44:19,792 --> 00:44:23,112 Speaker 2: going to tell to you. But so far that hasn't happened. 776 00:44:26,712 --> 00:44:29,632 Speaker 1: At the end of twenty twenty two, Jonathan Sherman offered 777 00:44:29,672 --> 00:44:33,152 Speaker 1: a thirty five million dollar award for any information that 778 00:44:33,312 --> 00:44:35,832 Speaker 1: leads to the arrest of the person or people who 779 00:44:35,911 --> 00:44:39,431 Speaker 1: killed his parents. He said, closure will not be possible 780 00:44:39,551 --> 00:44:42,991 Speaker 1: until those responsible for this evil act are brought to justice. 781 00:44:43,632 --> 00:44:47,471 Speaker 1: So far, not one person has given any information that 782 00:44:47,511 --> 00:44:51,511 Speaker 1: has moved the case any closer to being solved. Thank 783 00:44:51,511 --> 00:44:53,551 Speaker 1: you to Kevin for helping us tell this story. You 784 00:44:53,592 --> 00:44:55,792 Speaker 1: can find his book The Billionaire Murders at the Lincoln 785 00:44:55,792 --> 00:44:58,112 Speaker 1: Our show notes, as well as Kevin's podcast with a 786 00:44:58,152 --> 00:45:02,431 Speaker 1: Toronto Star. True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast 787 00:45:02,471 --> 00:45:05,712 Speaker 1: hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman 788 00:45:05,872 --> 00:45:08,431 Speaker 1: with audio you are designed by Jacob Brown. Thanks so 789 00:45:08,511 --> 00:45:11,192 Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another 790 00:45:11,232 --> 00:45:12,352 Speaker 1: true Crime Conversation