WEBVTT - ‘Just A Witness.’ Inside A Sexual Assault Trial In Australia 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.920 It's October twenty nineteen, and Sarah has just been on 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.680 a date with her new love interest, Joshua. They ate 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.280 and laughed their way around Sydney's noodle markets, and now. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:12.200 They're back at his place. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.200 Their relationship has already become sexually intimate, but tonight Sarah 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.160 isn't feeling well. I don't want to have sex tonight, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.600 she tells him. It has nothing to do with you. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.520 She assures, good to know you're disgusted by me. He replies, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.360 and before she can even comprehend his retort, Sarah remembers 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.320 being flipped on her back. She describes him proceeding to 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:43.200 violently rape her. She remembers saying no multiple times, screaming, kicking, 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.600 but it just made it worse, so she went limp 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.400 waited for it to be over. I'm having a shower, 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.520 he announces afterwards. Sarah's head is spinning. 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.320 She's numb in shock, terrified. 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.320 As he exits the room and turns on the water, 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:12.880 Sarah runs, I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:17.160 Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.319 by speaking to the people who know. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.600 The most about them. Picture this. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.840 You've accused someone of rape, of strangling you, suffocating you, 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.399 of leaving you with nightmares and PTSD. You've plucked up 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.360 the courage to go to the police and report it. 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:39.560 He can surround himself with the best lawyers money can buy. 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.399 He can have those lawyers dig into the deepest, darkest, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.800 and most private parts of your life, like your conversations 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.240 with your therapist, and have them read out in a 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.480 court of law. He can spend the years leading up 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.760 to the trial strategizing and preparing. He doesn't have to 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.200 even take the stand and answer questions as is. He's right, You, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:07.240 the alleged victim, have no one because the prosecution doesn't 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:07.800 work for you. 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:09.400 They work for the state. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.079 You are simply evidence in your own case. You spend 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.920 those years isolated and desperate for any basic information about 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.760 what's happening. You meet the prosecutor assigned one day before 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:28.040 trial for an hour. You walk into court and are 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:31.040 expected to answer every and all questions put to you 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.440 in days long interrogation processes. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.200 This was Sarah's reality. 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:37.840 And she is not the exception. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.520 She is the rule. This is how we. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.519 Currently treat victims of sexual assault in Australia, and after 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.280 navigating the system in New South Wales herself, Sarah Rosenberg 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.680 has spent the last four years advocating to change it. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.440 She knows that's an uphill battle, so in the meantime 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.840 she's created resources to help victims navigate the system. As 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:04.600 a stands, it's called with You we Can. Just a note, 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.120 Joshua is not his name. It's a pseudonym used to 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.520 allow Sarah to talk more openly about her case because 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.400 he was found not guilty by a jury. Sarah joins 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:22.880 us now to talk about it all. Sarah, thank you 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.160 for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Take me back 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.520 to twenty three year old you. It was twenty nineteen. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.639 What were you doing in life? Where were you at 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:37.720 twenty nineteen? I had just come home from university in Canberra. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.200 So I wrapped up in twenty eighteen and I moved 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.840 home and I was excited. I started an internship at 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.040 the Smith Family, like the children's education charity. I ended 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.560 up getting my getting my own job funded there and 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.200 went on to work there for a while. But I 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.560 remember around the time this all happening, there's literally a 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.960 photo of me heading into my first day of work 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.480 with like the lanyard around my neck on the bus 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.520 sending it to this guy, which is what we're. 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:10.920 Here to talk about. But I was very excited to 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.200 be back in Sydney after being away. I was also 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:19.080 nervous because I have a chronic autoimmune disease that really 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.760 affects my day to day and certainly back then affected 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.440 it a lot more. So I was nervous about starting work. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.400 But it was a new and exciting time for me, 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.680 like it was new chapter vibes. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.840 You met Joshua on a dating app, as we all 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.760 do nowadays, Tell. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.600 Me about the start. What was he like? What drew 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:47.039 you to him? So we met him bumble and it 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.800 just went so quickly, And it went so quickly, and 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.919 things like love bombing weren't phrases back then, Like I 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:00.720 feel like things have changed a lot. I was just 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:06.559 like head over heels for this guy. He on paper, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:11.159 he sounded amazing like he was headboyd is school. He 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.760 just like all of the things that you would obviously 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.560 seek in someone who seems passionate and active and driven 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.800 and stable and has their life together. Yeah, And it 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.960 is funny because when I'm answering these questions to you, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.120 I'm trying to put myself back to how I felt 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.560 and what I saw at the time. Well, so much 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.919 has happened since It's tricky. It is tricky, but it 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:43.160 is like, as we get into this, like it is 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:48.200 worth noting that while I'm saying these things. While I'm 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.680 saying that, like I was head over heels and I 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.159 was being swept off my feet, and I was really 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.200 into him, and I was really excited to have someone 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.800 so interested in me. It felt like my first kind 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:03.240 of adult relationship. Like back home after UNI, everyone has 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.880 their jobs and lives in separate houses and you actually 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:07.440 have to like make time to see each other. So 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:13.200 it felt really adult, which was exciting. But as I'm speaking, 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.200 I think it's important to note that even back then, 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.160 while intellectually I was so excited and I was drawn 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:28.800 to him and I felt like he seemed stable physically 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:34.119 and somatically, I absolutely did not feel that way very early, 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:39.040 very early on, I was fearful of him. I there 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.440 was a night I even locked myself in my parents' 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.520 room when he was staying over out of nowhere, like 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:49.080 I was just what spoked, I don't know, it's weird. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.520 It's weird. It's like because I was having such cognitive 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.520 cognitive dissonance. It's something I talk about a lot, Like, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.680 cognitive dissonance is crazy, and we need cognitive dissonance to 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.560 go about our daily lives and like function because the 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.599 world has and if we deal with that every day, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.360 none of us are going to get up and get 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.960 out of bed. I was in a state of I 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.840 guess I'm kind of I never thought that I would 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.480 be a victim of domestic violence or a victim of 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.000 anything really, but I look back and I'm like, I 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.360 was so the perfect person to pray on. I was 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.800 really vulnerable. I'm really close to my family because I've 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.000 been really sick as well, so I'm extra close to 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.880 them at a time that in your life is formative 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.280 because you're meant to be like becoming an adult and individualizing. 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.120 And I was like at home on my deathbed. My 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:40.000 parents were abroad at the time. I had had i'd 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.920 sort of like cut ties with a lot of people 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.520 from university, and I was back, you know, in my hometown, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.960 but you know, totally different group of people. Things have 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:53.480 changed after four years of UNI, and I just quite 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:59.080 honestly remember thinking that I just wanted to stay still. 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.800 I didn't care who, I didn't care what it was. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.640 I just didn't want any more kind of drama, anything 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.040 that could impact my health. I'm someone that's sort of 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.160 like I'm an EmPATH, Like I'm someone that takes on 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.360 other people's stuff and really gets invested in a lot 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.320 of things when it's you know that old kind of 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.920 picky Battle's saying, I just remember, like I want to 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:27.400 stay still. And all this guy did was stay still 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.440 long enough for me to like sync up with him. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.400 And actually all of the things that I'm going, oh, 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.040 I'm just being swept off my feet and we're so 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.520 into each other were not real. He was mimicking like 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.959 my behaviors, mimicking my interests, like all those like classic 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.240 narcissistic traits that are associated with love bombing for real, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.240 not love bombing as a catchphrase, but love bombing as 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.439 a tactic of control. And so there were two weeks 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.599 of just this pure bliss. And he told me he 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.000 loved me within those two weeks, and he proposed to me, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.560 and he moved houses to be around the corner from me, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.040 and all of these things, right, which and you now 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.080 you go on, my god crazy. And it's funny because 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:15.000 at the time, intellectually I was like, no, no, no, it's fine, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.560 it's fine. Somatically, I immediately like, I did not say 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.880 I love him back. I was like, that's insane, and 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.920 I intentionally didn't tell the people around me none of 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.560 my friends had met him. Every time we would go out, 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.880 he would he had a strange sort of I don't 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.720 know if it was a relationship with alcohol or if 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.600 it was just because his walls were coming down because 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.400 he was inebriated. Every time he would drink, he would 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.120 drink like too much for what the occasion warranted, and 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.720 he would become hyper hyper fixated and jealous on me 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.680 with whoever like was around, like him and his friend 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.000 you belong together. He would throw tadrums. He would lie 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.040 on the ground in the middle of the road. You 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.120 just met this guy, and I just met this guy. 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.440 And so while I say that, intellectually, I was going, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.000 I'm a god amazing, somatically I knew the whole time 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.440 I just was. I think I was intentionally suppressing my 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.559 understanding that this guy was not a whether he was 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.600 good or bad. Different story but him being stable and safe. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:18.640 That was totally a lie. I was telling myself. I 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.880 was fearful of him from the start. Yeah, his eyes 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.120 in particular, like you'll later like my statement talks a 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.240 lot about his eyes, his red eyes whenever he was drinking. Like, 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.120 I was scared of this guy, and I was just 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.360 not telling anyone about it because I was going, Oh 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.840 my god, I'm in an adult relationship. This could be 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:38.679 it for me. Wouldn't that be nice to not have 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.680 to ever like go on a dating app again? Or like, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:43.960 I don't know, it was a vulnerable time in my 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.720 life where I think I just wanted to stay still. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.800 And I don't know if anyone can relate to that. 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:51.520 It was just sort of like I guess it was 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:52.520 a feeling of settling. 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.480 Really, let's go to the night. Yeah, you went on 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.280 a date Sydney Noodle market, noodle markets good? How did 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.720 the start of the night go? Were you in sync? 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:04.880 Were you having a good time. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.560 So I'd just come back from a trip with my 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.760 family or the girls in the family from Byron Bay, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.760 and during that trip I got really sick, and by 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.559 really sick, that just looks like a flare up of 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.160 my autoimmune disease. It wasn't like I had a flu 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:25.440 or anything. I was just physically not thriving, probably because 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.240 the flight had taken me out, so coming home, I 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.439 was not in a good way. And he had never 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:36.280 seen me that unwell before, so I was nervous. I 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:42.240 was excited to be spending time together again, but I 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.600 could tell that something was off, and me doing that 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.600 thing that a lot of women do, I think, kind 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.839 of bent over backwards to explain away what was going 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.400 on or to like I literally gave him a speech 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.160 about I felt like I got on my soapbox, like 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.240 I know you haven't seen me this sick before. Just 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.400 want you to let you know that, Like it's okay, 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.720 it's nothing to do with you. I almost feel like 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:12.720 he was taking it personally, but I mean for tax purposes. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.840 The night. The night was fine, like we had noodles, 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.959 like it was nice. He had a couple of glasses 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.559 of wine. I think I had one, he had a 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.480 couple more. I can't really stomach wine at the best 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.320 of times, but also especially not what I'm feeling sick. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.800 But it started out as a very normal evening. 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.600 You went back to his house and once again. You 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.400 told him you felt sick. Yeah, you had already been 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:43.000 sexually intimate before. Yeah, but you said I'm not feeling 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.839 it tonight. It wasn't like I'm not feeling it because 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.400 he was trying to initiate intimacy. It was like he 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.439 was being weird and I felt the need to get 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.440 on my soapbox. And I turned to him and I said, 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.959 my skin hurts right now, like I don't want to 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.240 be touched. That has nothing to do with you. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:12.160 My nerves are tingling. This is because I'm inflamed. I 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.640 feel like you are mad at me, like what's going on? 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.880 And this is when it happened. He he turned to 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.680 me and he said, good to know that you're disgusted 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.520 by me, And then he turned the light off, and 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.080 then it happened. So it wasn't like we were like 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.520 in a process of hey, should we should we sleep together? 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.960 Should we not? It was like not even in the 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.240 kind of the realm of the conversation at all. It 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.760 wasn't like something we did every night. Certainly, it wasn't assumed. 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.400 It wasn't a coercive Oh come on please. It was 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.360 like not even no discussion, really not even we weren't 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.200 even talking about it. So I was just kind of 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.440 shocked by what he had said and felt so upset 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.640 by that after I've been so vulnerable and I'm trying 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.720 to make him feel better, which is crazy in the 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.400 first place, that I'm trying to make you feel better 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:16.720 that I feel sick, and you seem to be taking 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.200 it personally like I don't even know what that means 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.640 or what that says about a person. But it was 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:27.840 so sudden. It happened straight away, and it escalated very quickly. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.600 As much as you feel comfortable sharing, what do you 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.400 remember about what happened next? 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:41.280 I remember his neck and his face pushed into pushed 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.520 into me, and I remember the things he was saying, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:52.760 because once again there were really strange things he was saying. 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.200 I knew you never loved me. I knew you were 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:00.680 always thinking about other men in this like low insidious 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:07.000 voice that I did not recognize, and I started like 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.160 pulling his hair and pushing his body, and I was 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:17.240 really pinned down. And this is like the he was 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.320 inside of me at this point, like the rape had started. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.840 But I in that moment was I think about how 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.640 later on and you talk about trauma responses, and people 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:31.440 are like, it's okay that you did this or did that, 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:37.800 and it's like, I bought my little legs off. I 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.840 was pulling his hair. It wasn't working. I was screaming 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.440 in his ear. It wasn't working. I started kicking my legs. 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:49.040 It wasn't working. And then he strangled me. And he 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.680 strangled me with both hands and sitting up on his 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.880 knees with the full force of his body. I still 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.720 I was fighting, I was scratching. I was pulling. Got 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.200 no bloody nails. I picked them off. I was pulling, 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:09.080 and then he let go and I gasped for air, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.120 and then very quickly I was suffocated with a pillow 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.520 that he had grabbed from next to my head, and 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.280 he sort of smoothed his hands across my face and 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:23.120 pressed down, so I was really stuck under there. During 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:30.360 that time, it's believed that I lost consciousness. I remember 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.880 focusing on the lights and the patterns that I was 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.000 seeing because there was a lot of pressure being placed 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:42.520 on my eyes and I couldn't breathe. And when the 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:48.320 pillow did eventually get removed, I made a very intentional 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:54.200 decision to go limp. So that's where the freezing kicked 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.160 in for me, because I had tried fighting and it 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.920 had made it worse. I'd just been strangled and suffocated, 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:04.080 so I went it kept going. There's like a second 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:10.480 round of rate because he flipped me over. He grabbed 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.240 my hair and pulled me up by my hair until 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.840 I was on all fours. He when he was done, 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.720 he let go, and I just collapsed onto the bed, 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.600 like no part of me was holding myself up by 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.840 that stage, like I was just limp and I was numb, 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.280 and I curled into a ball, and I got my 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.080 legs ready in case he came back. But all that 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.600 happened was he grabbed my towel from the back of 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.440 the door and threw it at me and said I'm 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.560 going to take a shower, and maybe assuming that I 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.400 would join, And it felt like I was lying there forever. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.359 I remember touching my face and noticing that I'd been crying. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.880 I didn't know. And then something clicked and I grabbed 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:03.000 everything of mine in the room and bolted. He must 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.199 have heard me, I mean, like it's an old terrace house. 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:08.679 He must have heard the padding on the stairs, and 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.560 he chased me and got to the door. At the 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.520 same time as me, I put my hand on the 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.600 door handle. He put his hand on the door to 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:24.439 stop it. And then came the immediate like I know 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:29.439 now that this was bullshit, this immediate justification. I'm a monster. 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.520 I belong in jail. People that even think of doing 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.879 that belong in jail. I don't know what's happened to me. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.520 Something's wrong with me. I've had a brain snap all 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:42.439 of this stuff, and I remember it so well. I 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.560 looked up and I looked at him, and I realized 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.760 that was the first time we had made eye contact 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.159 since he had said he was disgusted by me and 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.080 then very violently assaulted me. Like I hadn't looked at 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.919 him the entire time. I couldn't get his eyes to 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.760 look at me. I looked him in the eyes, and 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.520 I just opened the door and let me and I 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.080 went to my car, which was parked across the road. 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.360 That is so heavy. Thank you for telling us that 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.639 I've heard you well. I read in your article with 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.800 Nina Fanel, who we've had on this podcast. She's an 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:20.800 advocate of a lot of violence being one of the things, 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.560 and she has told your story, and a quote in 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.639 there from you I saw was that you feel like 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.440 you want to tell the details of exactly what happened. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.800 Why why do you like to tell people? There are 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.159 a lot of reasons behind it, and a lot of 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.040 them are you know. It's the same reason that I 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.919 staunchly identify as a victim and not a survivor, because 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.600 the story of resilience is a lot more marketable, and 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.520 with the details of my story, I think we so 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.480 often hear, which is incredibly important. We so often hear 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:06.040 about sexual coercion and how it goes so unnoticed in 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.800 intimate partner relationships. But this wasn't that There are people 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.520 who do intend to rape and who do use it 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:21.679 as a tool of control, and who who don't do 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:26.400 this just because they haven't learnt better. And I think 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:31.399 people often hear rape and they automatically tune out because 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:37.160 it's a woman's issue. But a story of violence is believable, 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:43.000 and I just think it's a way to keep people engaged. 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.160 I mean, people love the gory details clickbait as much 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.280 as anything, but I don't want to water anything down 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.399 to make other people uncomfortable. And I also know that 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.959 physical aggression has taken more seriously than sexual violence, and 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:05.120 so it's as much a to keep people reading than anything. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.359 It's a lot for you to carry though, having to 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.879 think that while telling your story. I mean, there's a 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.720 lot for all of the whole world's a lot to 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:15.200 carry for anyone. 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:21.160 So up next, Sarah reveals the first message she received 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:26.679 from Joshua after leaving his house that night. Once you'd left, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.080 he started texting you, didn't he Yeah, yeah, what We're 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:30.920 in those messages. 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.879 He was checking that I was okay. He kept apologizing. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.959 He wanted to know that I'd gotten home safe. He 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.439 didn't know that I had not gotten home safe. I 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:42.560 had not moved and was sitting in the car he 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.199 was still out there. Yeah. I remember looking like in 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.879 my there are all these moments of like seeing myself, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.000 like looking in the car mirror and like you just, 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:57.280 oh God, this can't be happening. I my first instinct was, Okay, 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:58.760 I've got to go to the hospital get a rape kit. 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:03.320 And then immediately, great, kid, what that didn't happen. That 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.879 can't have happened to me. And then it was like, okay, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.199 obviously I'll just go home. And then I was like, no, 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:11.000 my parents. I don't want to worry my parents. They'll 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:12.880 be so worried, like they're so happy for me, and 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:18.520 oh like I just immediately started belittling my experience and 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:24.320 justifying his behavior. And I lay back in the car. 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:25.639 I put the seat back and I put on like 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.760 rain noises from that calm app shout out calm like 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.640 the free rain noises. And I don't know how long 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:34.520 I mean I do because it's in my statement, but 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.280 for me, I don't know how much time passed, like 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.239 it felt like once again an eternity, And then the 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:44.640 phone started going and I didn't know what else to do. 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:46.960 This is someone I thought loved me. I did not 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.840 feel like what had happened could have possibly happened. I 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.600 thought I must have been interpreting it wrong, like I'd 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.159 got it all wrong. So I responded to his messages 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.000 and he came out and he sat in the car 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.400 with me. It is yep, and we just sat there 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.960 listening to rain noises for a long time, just in silence. 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.159 It very quickly became a situation where I was worried 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.480 he would hurt himself because he was so ashamed of 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.400 what he'd done, and I fell victim, and my whole 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.600 family did. We fell victim to this narrative really quickly, 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:27.840 and we said about trying to get him help. I 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:29.560 don't know what kind of help. I know now that 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.160 you know, people who have mental illness are more likely 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:38.120 to be victims than perpetrators. So certainly that wasn't it. 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.600 And it's a really common loophole that perpetrators actually abused 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.439 to try and get out of court hearings and things. 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.720 But he'd said he was worried he'd got into some 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.280 kind of psychosis, and he started like talking about things 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:55.240 that I don't know, sounded reasonable at the time, like 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.280 he'd done drugs in the past and done some intense 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.879 drugs that I hadn't known about and that was the 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.400 old me, but you know, maybe something to do with that, 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:07.480 Like he just it sounded reasonable. And I mean, I'm 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.200 not a big believer in the castle system. My mum 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.200 used to be a lawyer and certainly wasn't a big 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.600 believer either. We knew enough to know that it would 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:19.480 be bad even for someone who was well, and I'm 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:25.280 not a well person physically, and we knew it wouldn't 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:30.439 bring about any good outcomes for him either. And so 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:33.560