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Speaker 1: I don't look like a stereotypical spy. I can move

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Speaker 1: through our room completely unnoticed. I can do things that

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Speaker 1: people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.

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Speaker 1: They will not think that of me. Some things in

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Speaker 1: the movies we see and go, absolutely we do that.

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Speaker 1: Are we ever going to admit it?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: There is absolutely no high like stopping a spy, stopping

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Speaker 1: a terrorist attack.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Sees the YA Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore

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Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days

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Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm

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Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 2: fuentrepreneurs WP the Suits and Heels to co Found, matcha

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Speaker 2: Maiden and matcham Milk Bark CZA is a series of

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Speaker 2: conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the

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Speaker 2: self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Over

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Speaker 2: our seven years so far of seizing the A, I

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Speaker 2: found myself repeatedly blown away by some of the rooms

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Speaker 2: that's led me into and some of the incredible people

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Speaker 2: that I've been so lucky to meet. But never in

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Speaker 2: my wildest dreams did I imagine that one of those

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Speaker 2: rooms would be a skiff at the headquarters of our

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Speaker 2: National Security Service AZO, or that one of those people

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Speaker 2: would be a real life spy. For the uninitiated, a

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Speaker 2: skiff is a sensitive compartmented information facility, and if you

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Speaker 2: followed me for even the briefest of time, it won't

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Speaker 2: surprise you one bit that I'm already familiar with all

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Speaker 2: the acronyms. Pretty much all of the content that I

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Speaker 2: consume as part of my personal platia does involve espionage

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Speaker 2: or secret operations. And you might have even heard me

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Speaker 2: say that I once thought my law and Languages degree

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Speaker 2: would lead me into a career in intelligence myself. So

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Speaker 2: you'll understand and why I consider this week's episode to

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Speaker 2: be an absolute career and life highlight, and this week's

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Speaker 2: guest to be a very favorite. I am able to

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Speaker 2: share that our guest is a current senior intelligence officer

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Speaker 2: at AZO, and she has been permitted to shed some

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Speaker 2: light on the incredible work that she does, but her

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Speaker 2: exact title, her name, and her real voice remain obfuscated

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Speaker 2: for and I cannot believe I actually get to say

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Speaker 2: this in a real life context reasons of national security.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the identity of every individual who works at

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Speaker 2: AZO is a secret except for the Director General and

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Speaker 2: the three deputy Directors General, and our intelligence landscape generally

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Speaker 2: has long been shrouded in secrecy. As we discuss, the

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Speaker 2: very definition of AZIO success is preventing anything for us

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Speaker 2: to know about, and revealing exactly how they do that

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Speaker 2: to any of us would also reveal it to potential enemies.

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Speaker 2: So if you do get frustrated at what our guests

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Speaker 2: can't share, know that it's for extremely good reason. While

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Speaker 2: you may have ideas about spycraft from Holly Would and

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Speaker 2: agencies like the CIA or MI six, there still isn't

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Speaker 2: much out there about our homegrown spies, which makes it

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Speaker 2: even more exciting to get this incredibly rare insight into

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Speaker 2: what life is like on the inside. If I disappear

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Speaker 2: after this episode, it's because I have gone to live

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Speaker 2: out my intelligence dreams. It literally sounds like the coolest

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Speaker 2: job ever. I'll also add there are a few instances

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Speaker 2: where our speech may seem a bit chopped or edits

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Speaker 2: might seem messy. Plus we did end up having to

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Speaker 2: add a few beeps to the very final draft. But you'll,

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Speaker 2: of course understand that you can never know why. I

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Speaker 2: hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.

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Speaker 2: Anonymous guest number one, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: So exciting to be here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so exciting for me to be here. Since

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Speaker 2: i'mlike usual, I've had the great privilege of coming to

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Speaker 2: you to record from inside AZO headquarters today.

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Speaker 1: You're so welcome. It's wonderful to have you here.

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Speaker 2: I still can't quite believe it now. I haven't done

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Speaker 2: the research I normally would, because of course, this is

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Speaker 2: the first time had someone on without knowing their name.

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Speaker 2: But I have spent my lifetime preparing the questions i'd

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Speaker 2: ask if I ever did get the chance. As I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with the world at espionage. So to start,

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Speaker 2: I know you can't share your exact title, but can

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Speaker 2: you share with us what you are permitted to about

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Speaker 2: your role at ASIO? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I am a senior intelligence officer for ASIO,

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Speaker 1: ORSO the Australia Security Intelligence Organization. So that means that

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Speaker 1: I've had a career of catching spies and stopping terrorists,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the best careers you could ever

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Speaker 1: hope to have.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's already one of the coolest things I think

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Speaker 2: I've ever heard, and I can't like to get more

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Speaker 2: into what that actually means, including the day to day,

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Speaker 2: because I think one thing we love on this show

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Speaker 2: is going beyond people's titles to what their life actually

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Speaker 2: ends up looking like. But I'd love to start back

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Speaker 2: at the beginning with how you actually became an ASIO

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Speaker 2: intelligence officer, because I think we often skip past the

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Speaker 2: journey to get to where we are today when we

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Speaker 2: tell our story. Not that you can tell yours very often,

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Speaker 2: but it's all the steps along the way that makes

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Speaker 2: your pathway feel possible to any other aspiring spies out

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Speaker 2: there who might be listening. So let's go back to

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Speaker 2: your childhood, what you thought you'd be and if this

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Speaker 2: was ever on the cart.

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Speaker 1: So I can safely say that a career in intelligence

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Speaker 1: or at ASIO was so far beyond my expectations as

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Speaker 1: a kid growing up in regional I didn't even know

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Speaker 1: that ASIO existed, and that's probably a good thing that

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Speaker 1: it was the furthest thing from my mind, because it

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Speaker 1: just shows what a wonderful society we do live in,

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Speaker 1: and it's relatively safe, and we're so privileged to live here.

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Speaker 1: So my parents worked as an in pat so for

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Speaker 1: me seeing them work and really take pride in what

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Speaker 1: they do and seeing their friends also do the same,

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Speaker 1: I really saw myself following them into a career like that.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot there about public service and taking pride

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Speaker 1: in what you do and investing in the community. I'm

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Speaker 1: really proud to say I came from a family and

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Speaker 1: community like that, and then I went to UNI and

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Speaker 1: throughout high school I had a load of different part

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Speaker 1: time jobs, and when I look back now, they all

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Speaker 1: really helped me get to where I am today. I

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Speaker 1: love that working in retail, fast food, working in customer service,

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Speaker 1: they give you all the skills that you really need here,

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Speaker 1: so being quick thinkers, being proactive, being critical thinkers, being

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Speaker 1: able to speak to so many different people from so

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Speaker 1: many walks of life. Anyone that's worked as a waitress

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Speaker 1: at a big event. If you can't be a quick thinker,

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Speaker 1: and read the room exactly. So all those skills really

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Speaker 1: really helped.

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Speaker 2: I love that, And so often when we trace through

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Speaker 2: these steps, the dots don't always connect. Going forwards, you

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Speaker 2: don't always know where you'll end up at the time,

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Speaker 2: But then later, looking back, you can see how the

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Speaker 2: things you've done shaped you and led you to the

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Speaker 2: job you end up in. Plus, the world is changing

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Speaker 2: so fast that the job many of us end up

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Speaker 2: in might not even exist yet, or for you, you

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Speaker 2: didn't even know that Azio existed, So you really do

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Speaker 2: never know where you'll end up. And that brings me

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Speaker 2: to I was reading the Director General's latest annual Threat Assessment,

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Speaker 2: which we will refer back to quite a few times

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Speaker 2: in this episode, and he said, there is no one

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Speaker 2: Azeo type, just a team player who thinks critically and

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Speaker 2: wants to make a difference. That's so true. But then

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Speaker 2: how do you go from regional into a senior intelligence

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Speaker 2: officer position? Like? What was that process? What qualifications do

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Speaker 2: you need?

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Speaker 1: Is it through a career is fair?

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Speaker 2: I think I mentioned off a back when I was

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Speaker 2: a lawyer, back in the day, I did meet with

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Speaker 2: Asio at a career's fair, so very much thought I

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Speaker 2: could end up somewhere like this. You know, I want

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Speaker 2: to believe it's someone taps you on the shoulder and

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Speaker 2: that there are dead drops and code.

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Speaker 1: I love that we've all seen the movies, but I

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Speaker 1: can safely say that the pathway that you see in

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Speaker 1: a lot of the movies where there's a certain type

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Speaker 1: of person that's gone to a certain type of university

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Speaker 1: or gone to a certain type of school, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly there's a professor that taps them on the shoulder

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, you're invited to this private session.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it doesn't happen like that, But I think that's

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Speaker 2: a really.

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Speaker 1: Good thing because as needs to protect and so represent

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Speaker 1: the community that we protect, and we take that really seriously.

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Speaker 1: So thinking about the vast array of roles and skills

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Speaker 1: that we need in the organization. We need a vast

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Speaker 1: array of people here with different sets of skills. We

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Speaker 1: need the technologists, we need the lawyers, we need the psychologists,

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Speaker 1: and even within my job family, the intelligence stream, we

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Speaker 1: need a huge array of skill sets and people so

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Speaker 1: that we get that diversity of thought to get the

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Speaker 1: best outcomes that we need for Australia. When I think

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Speaker 1: back to my first day when I was here many

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Speaker 1: years ago, and when I think back to who my

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Speaker 1: cohort were, we're coming in different cohorts. I was definitely

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Speaker 1: straight out of UNI, but I also had friends that

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Speaker 1: were previous school teachers, lawyers, psychologists, tradees.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: We had a huge variety in who we had coming

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Speaker 1: in with us.

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Speaker 2: That's so cool. I read that the Director General actually

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Speaker 2: began as an electrical engineer, So I love the idea

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Speaker 2: that anyone could end up climbing the ranks at AZO.

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Speaker 2: Are you allowed to share what you studied?

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Speaker 1: I warn't that different and machinations of it. It'd be

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Speaker 1: more easy to identify who I am. Yeah, there's no

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Speaker 1: one degree people need to take or pathway at university

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Speaker 1: to take to get in, and some roles in ASIO,

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Speaker 1: you don't need a university degree. Certainly worked alongside people

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Speaker 1: who come in through a particular job stream and then

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Speaker 1: they go through university while they're here. They are incredibly

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Speaker 1: hard working and do that part time in their downtime.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you might not be able to share how

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Speaker 2: ASIO would give someone a tap on the shoulder if

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Speaker 2: they were headhunting you. I'm still going to believe that

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Speaker 2: it's code and dead drops, But of course you can

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Speaker 2: also put yourself forward and apply which one were you?

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Speaker 2: How did you get your job?

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Speaker 1: So my story is very unique. I had a totally

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Speaker 1: different career path that outlined in my mind based on

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Speaker 1: what my degree was and where I thought I wanted

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Speaker 1: to go in my life. And I have always really

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Speaker 1: valued that hard work that we talked about before, and

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Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in whatever you do, you need

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Speaker 1: to do it well. And so this is terrible. But

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Speaker 1: when I applied for ASIO, I actually used this organization

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Speaker 1: to gauge how with my application was, which is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: But when I applied, I had another really bespoke career

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Speaker 1: in mind, and so I thought, who are some of

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Speaker 1: the best, Who are some of the brightest, who are

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Speaker 1: some of the most excellent in Australia? And I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: it's the spooks. It's the ones that keep Australia safe.

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Speaker 1: So if I put my application into them and I

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Speaker 1: see where I get knocked out, because you won't ever

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Speaker 1: get told if you don't progress. If I just use

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Speaker 1: them and I'll figure out where my application stacks up.

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Speaker 2: Oh you mean for the other career path. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: I just kept getting through, and so for Asio, I

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Speaker 1: would come along and I would have the best time.

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Speaker 1: I would meet these amazing people and I would just

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Speaker 1: be so energized every step that I got through, and

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Speaker 1: with every step I walked away and went okay bye.

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Speaker 1: I just kept getting through. And then I got the

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Speaker 1: job offer, and I thought, oh my goodness, this is

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Speaker 1: so exciting, so amazing, and I was really really excited,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, I'm still not one of them. I

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Speaker 1: am a country from I am not the thought that

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Speaker 1: they are looking for. And so I thought, I'll give

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Speaker 1: it a year.

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Speaker 2: After a year, and then they'll find me out.

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Speaker 1: They'll find me out the imposter syndrome, for sure. And

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Speaker 1: so I thought, I'll give it a year, see how

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Speaker 1: I go. And then so many years later, I'm still

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Speaker 1: here and I love it every single day, and the

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Speaker 1: people that I work alongside and the mission that we

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Speaker 1: have has just kept me bouncing out of bed every

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Speaker 1: day and coming in.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've got goose bumps. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: am for personal reasons, but also because it's just such

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Speaker 2: a repeated theme of people's path yea's as I like

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Speaker 2: to call them, and that's like the crazy sliding doors moment.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely that leads you to a place that but for

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Speaker 2: you just randomly putting in your application, you might not

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Speaker 2: have ended up here. And also so for anyone listening.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're sitting on an idea, just do it,

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Speaker 2: absolutely do it. It's not the long, calculated game that often

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Speaker 2: leads you to the ultimate goal. It's the goals you

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Speaker 2: didn't know you had and you had no idea.

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Speaker 1: And I often think what my life would look like, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the experiences that I wouldn't have had, the friends I

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Speaker 1: haven't made, the colleagues who are just so phenomenal that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been up to work beside, and I

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Speaker 1: just feel sorry for that version of myself that didn't

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Speaker 1: wind up here. I'm so lucky to be here.

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Speaker 2: Well, Australia is lucky to have you, and that you

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Speaker 2: did make it through all those interview rounds. For anyone listening,

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Speaker 2: it makes sense why we can't share more about specifically

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Speaker 2: what those interview rounds involved. So I was not to

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Speaker 2: give anyone a heads up, but I guess the point

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Speaker 2: here is that anyone can apply for AZO if you're interested.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to wait for that tap on the shoulder,

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Speaker 2: which I think is just so cool.

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Speaker 1: You can absolutely apply. Yeah, our amazing team gets a

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Speaker 1: lot of media out there in our recruitment drive, So

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Speaker 1: for anyone wanting to join the intelligence stream, there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of information out there. Head to our website

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Speaker 1: and you'll see it there.

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Speaker 2: Amazing. Okay, so we're all dying to know about what

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Speaker 2: you do and find out how much you're allowed to

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Speaker 2: tell us. But I think it does make sense too

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Speaker 2: quickly for those who don't know much about AZIO as

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Speaker 2: an organization, So for the uninitiated, to give them a

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Speaker 2: bit of an outline. First, of course, it's a secret

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Speaker 2: organization by nature, and before the current Director General, who's

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Speaker 2: a bit more open, there really wasn't much.

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Speaker 1: Shed at all about it.

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Speaker 2: A lot of Australians don't know it exists, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of what we think we know is based on

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Speaker 2: overseas all the movies, whereas our Australian intelligence community, the AIC,

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Speaker 2: of course, has its own differences in structure. So can

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Speaker 2: you take us through the background of emerging in a

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Speaker 2: post Cold War environment so very much focused on bringing

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Speaker 2: down Soviet infiltrators. I mean, there are some really cool stories,

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Speaker 2: but then adapting through modern terrorism and now to kind

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Speaker 2: of the current state of affairs.

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Speaker 1: So you're luckily aware. But for anyone listening, azio's Australia's

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Speaker 1: security service and we protect Australia and Australians from threats

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Speaker 1: to security. So we want to keep everyone safe. And

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Speaker 1: our role within the National Intelligence community is really quite

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Speaker 1: unique because we collect, we investigate, we assess, and we disrupt.

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Speaker 1: So we have lots of different distinct functions and we

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Speaker 1: do them all incredibly well. So we collect, investigate, and

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Speaker 1: assess to provide advice to government and industry, so we

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Speaker 1: want them to know whatever we can tell them so

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Speaker 1: they can make the best decisions to keep Australia safe.

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Speaker 1: We also collect and use intelligence to disrupt spies and terrorists.

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Speaker 1: So the jobs that we're best known for are those

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Speaker 1: by jobs, so the intelligence analysts and intelligence officers, surveillance

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Speaker 1: officers and our tech experts. But like I said, there's

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Speaker 1: lots of jobs that you wouldn't initially think about in

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Speaker 1: relation to AZIO, like in finance, in legal, in hr, communications, design,

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Speaker 1: linguists and heaps of other areas across the organization that

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Speaker 1: we need and I think That's what I really love

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Speaker 1: about this organization. You can have so many different jobs

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Speaker 1: within the one organization, even just within the intelligence stream

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Speaker 1: that I'm a part of. I've had so many more

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Speaker 1: jobs and roles in AZIO than I ever had part

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Speaker 1: time jobs as a UNI student.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I will always keep learning and I

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Speaker 1: will absolutely never be bored. I hate being bored, so

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Speaker 1: I will never ever be bored in this organization.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, how could you also just as an

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Speaker 2: aside for our listeners, as I had a few questions

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Speaker 2: about this when I posted a teaser. There are nine

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Speaker 2: other organizations alongside AZEO in our Australian intelligence community. You

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Speaker 2: might have also heard of ASIS, which is our overseas

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Speaker 2: intelligence collection organization, along with several other acronyms, but we

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Speaker 2: need a full series to cover those, so definitely look

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Speaker 2: them up and also look up the full history of

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Speaker 2: AZIO as there are some really cool spy stories that

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Speaker 2: are now declassified, like the Petrov affair, where AZIO facilitated

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Speaker 2: the defection of a KGB spy masquerading as a diplomat

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Speaker 2: in the Soviet embassy in Canberra, which seems unfathomable to

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Speaker 2: the average Australian that this actually happens back home. But

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Speaker 2: I guess the reason we don't hear much about what

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Speaker 2: is happening back home because you don't hear about things

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Speaker 2: that are prevented. And the definition of your success is

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Speaker 2: that regular Australians don't know much.

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Speaker 1: About what you do.

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Speaker 2: But of course we here today to find out as

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Speaker 2: much as we are allowed to know about what you do.

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Speaker 2: So now to the juicy stuff. What can you share

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Speaker 2: with us about what you do? Like I said, it's

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Speaker 2: hard to imagine that there is stuff like this and

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Speaker 2: espionage happening, but it has been confirmed by the Director

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Speaker 2: General that there are spies are pready in Australia, that

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Speaker 2: countries are constantly trying to find out about our military capabilities,

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Speaker 2: and that there are three known countries trying to harm

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Speaker 2: people living in Australia. So what can you share with us?

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Speaker 1: So I would love to tell you about all of

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Speaker 1: the cool missions that we have done, because we do

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Speaker 1: them every day. One of the trickiest things I suppose

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Speaker 1: for the Australian public is that the more audacious our success,

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Speaker 1: the less we can share that with anybody. Because like

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Speaker 1: any sporting team, or like any recipe that you want

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Speaker 1: to protect, it's only good if you don't share it

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Speaker 1: too broadly. Yeah, of course we need to deliver what

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Speaker 1: our adversaries think are impossible. Yes, we need to do

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Speaker 1: the impossible every day, so that our adversaries, the people

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Speaker 1: that want to kill Australians, the people that want to

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Speaker 1: erode the fabric of our democratic society, aren't suspecting that

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Speaker 1: we're there, or that we're collecting against them, or that

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Speaker 1: we're positioning ourselves to be able to stop them. So

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Speaker 1: I have had so many pinch me moments in this

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Speaker 1: career where I have looked across at the intelligence officer

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Speaker 1: sitting beside me, and our eyes just lock and we

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Speaker 1: both know that what we're thinking, and then we're back

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Speaker 1: in the game. Ah. That is so cool for us

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Speaker 1: not being able to speak about it is both one

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Speaker 1: of the most important things that we can do in

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Speaker 1: this job, but also recognizing that we know what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: We know that we're keeping Australian safe, and the colleagues

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Speaker 1: that work alongside me and some of our closest friends

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Speaker 1: and family know that we're working towards something really important.

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Speaker 2: It still blows my mind that I'm sitting across from

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Speaker 2: someone who catches spies for living. But I guess, of

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Speaker 2: course it makes sense that the exact methods that you

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Speaker 2: used to do that can never be shared publicly because

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Speaker 2: then they be rendered totally ineffective. But the Director General

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Speaker 2: has made public some more general threats that you know,

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Speaker 2: the organization and Australia is facing and that you guys

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Speaker 2: would be working on. Plus, I think the topetality of

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Speaker 2: most Australians understanding of spies and intelligence officers is more

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Speaker 2: from the movies. So in a more generalized sense, can

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Speaker 2: you sort of tell us what are those general threats

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Speaker 2: that you're facing? Does any of that resemble what we

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Speaker 2: would see in films? Are you dealing with individual espionage?

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Speaker 2: Are you out on the streets, are you kind of

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Speaker 2: traveling overseas? Like? What are you doing on a more

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Speaker 2: general level?

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Speaker 1: So I love the spy movies and spy dramas, as

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Speaker 1: I said before, and I think their an incredible form

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Speaker 1: of entertainment, and some things are really true in them

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Speaker 1: and some things are way off. They give me a

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Speaker 1: really good laugh. Anyway, I think it's important for you'd

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Speaker 1: know this already, Sarah, but for anyone listening to know

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Speaker 1: that AZIO is Australia's security service. That means that we

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Speaker 1: are not just based here in Australia or work just

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Speaker 1: here in Australia. We protect Australians wherever they are across

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Speaker 1: the globe. So in terms of what you said, like

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Speaker 1: spy movies and dramas, people working overseas and things, if

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Speaker 1: we need to, we will go to where we need

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Speaker 1: to protect Australian from a particular threat. And anyone who

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Speaker 1: does want to listen to the DG's threat assessment, they'll

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Speaker 1: hear that at the moment we've got two really huge

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Speaker 1: security concerns upon us around foreign interference and espionage and terrorism.

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Speaker 1: For us, it is very much a matter of thinking

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Speaker 1: about everything everywhere all at once. Where it's an incredible

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Speaker 1: movie as well, but it really strikes home for us

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Speaker 1: at the moment where we have people wanting to exert

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Speaker 1: violence against Australians wherever they happen to be and targeting

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Speaker 1: them because of the amazing life that we have here

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Speaker 1: in Australia or belief systems that people have got. And

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Speaker 1: in terms of espionage, people wanting to steal our government secrets.

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Speaker 1: So that they can do Australia harm. And of course,

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Speaker 1: like you said with the petroots, that's not something that

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Speaker 1: is new. It goes back almost as old as time itself,

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Speaker 1: is the role of espionage or the conduct of espionage.

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Speaker 1: But it's a very real threat that we see here today.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy to think how often the everyday Australian could

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Speaker 2: be standing somewhere where a terrorist, a or some kind

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Speaker 2: of threat to security was foiled just the day before

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Speaker 2: thanks to someone like you guys in the Shadows, without

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Speaker 2: us having any idea that that happened. Absolutely, another really

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Speaker 2: cool thing that we walked past on the way in,

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Speaker 2: and it's been publicized before, I think in the seven

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Speaker 2: thirty reports, so it's not a secret. But there's a

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Speaker 2: wall dedicated to Azio's history and a museum dedicated to

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Speaker 2: artifacts and real devices used inspire operations. So there's a

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Speaker 2: camera hidden inside an Agatha Christie book. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a camera on display that I know I'm pushing the

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Speaker 2: TV thing, but that was actually used in a James

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Speaker 2: Bond movie that Azio had used in real life. So

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Speaker 2: there is sometimes an intersection between the movies and what

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Speaker 2: happens in real life. K. Marshall had used invisible inc

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Speaker 2: at one point, and this might sound like the olden

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Speaker 2: days to you, but of course you can't reveal specifics.

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Speaker 2: But are there any any times that you know the

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Speaker 2: technology is reflected in TV or you know, are you

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Speaker 2: guys using devices and tools in your tradecraft?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, we will use any tool that we can because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the time we want to blend in

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Speaker 1: with what the world around.

437
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: Us looks like.

438
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: That's one of the key things for me thinking about

439
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 1: how I wound up here. There's no way that a

440
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: person from rural would see themselves when I was first

441
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 1: applying in having a role here. But I can move

442
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: through a room completely unnoticed. I can do things that

443
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.

444
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: They will not think that of me. I don't look

445
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: like a stereotypical spy. And so for us, the tools

446
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: that we use or the mo that we employ is

447
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: all as normal as possible so that it can blend

448
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: in and not be noticed. And so I think some

449
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: things in the movies we see and go absolutely we

450
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 1: do that. Are we ever going to admit it? No?

451
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 1: But if we can blend in and not be suspected

452
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: or detected, then that's a win.

453
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: Okay, you why definitely the coolest person I've ever spoken to.

454
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: Perhaps another reference point for some of our listeners or

455
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: for the average Australian could also be situations emergencies that

456
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 2: we have faced in Australia that we would have heard

457
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: about in the news that ASIO has responded to, or

458
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: that your team has responded to without giving specifics, but

459
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: to give us some context about the kinds of situations

460
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: you would be working on.

461
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: Of course, so this one's going back a little way,

462
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: but people might remember the horrible link cafe. See I

463
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: was working of of course, I was at work that

464
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: day and we were meeting with some of our partners

465
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: and we were in a room. It was quite a

466
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: large meeting and we're all interrupted and my team and

467
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: I were the responding team for that particular incident because

468
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: we worked on that particular area. So we were interrupted.

469
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: We were told we all needed to leave, So we

470
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 1: kind of left in this frenzy of leaving our visitors

471
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: there saying sorry, someone will come to collect to you shortly,

472
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: and we came out to see what was happening on

473
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 1: the news, and it was just of course, horrendous and

474
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 1: so tragic. We had to respond in terms of finding

475
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: out who the individual was, finding as much information as

476
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: we could. The whole team really spoiled up, and when

477
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: that happens, you get goosebumps just seeing people dive into

478
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: as much of the information holdings as we've got, trying

479
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: to collect as much as we possibly can, because our

480
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: overall goal in any response like that is to share

481
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: as much as we possibly can with our police, law

482
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 1: enforcement and other partners so that they can actually have

483
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: that on the ground response. So that day we worked

484
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: through and tell the horrible resolution that it was until

485
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: two am, and part of the information that was provided

486
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: through on those days came from us to be able

487
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: to support that response.

488
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: It's just crazy to think that you were actually working

489
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: on that. Is there anything internationally that we would have

490
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: seen in the news that had a similar kind of

491
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: cascading effect or that your team were working on. Yeah.

492
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: So I think sticking with the terrorism theme because I

493
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: worked a lot of my career against in the counter

494
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: terrorism area. The Iceol Caliphate, which was established around and

495
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: existed around twenty fifteen. We saw a lot of young

496
00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: Australians trying to travel offshore to join I still and

497
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: join other prescribed terrorist organizations for whatever reason at the time,

498
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: and so our effort was both against identifying individuals like

499
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: that and where we could, working as part of the

500
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: broader government effort to prevent them from traveling using different

501
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: tools available to us and legislative means. And that really

502
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: saw a number of young Australians here prevented from traveling

503
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: to join the Caliphate, to join the fight. Kind of

504
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: we stopped them doing what they actually wanted to do,

505
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: which unfortunately saw them start to focus on what they

506
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: might want to and could do here in Australia. So

507
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: whilst we were an amazing member of the international community

508
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: keeping those threats at home, that in itself created a

509
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: lot of work for ourselves and our law enforcement partners

510
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: to make sure that if and when they were prevented

511
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: from traveling, they weren't then successful in conducting an attack

512
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: here in Australia.

513
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: That's such another fascinating part of what you guys do

514
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 2: is how much you are operating with national security, but

515
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: how much that bleeds into cross border staff and working

516
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: with international partners domestic partners, and it's.

517
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: Such a web.

518
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: I think it sounds like, and.

519
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: It makes us so much stronger. Our partnerships are a

520
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 1: gift and we're so grateful for the international and domestic

521
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: partners that we work alongside, and we have incredibly strong

522
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: relationships with so many of them, and Australia is safer

523
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: because of their efforts as well.

524
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: What about any situations that you can share. I think

525
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: a few have been declassified of where you prevented something

526
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: from happening that was a plot. I mean, as we mentioned,

527
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 2: most of the time that will never see the light

528
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: of day. But I think you know a couple have

529
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: been shared publicly recently.

530
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, one from the Director General's most recent threat

531
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: assessment was around an individual online who was seeking to

532
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: conduct a school shooting. The individual, we understand had actually

533
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: taken tangible steps to conduct that and the information that

534
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: AZO found and shared with our partners actually kept a

535
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: bunch of kids safe and made them and made sure

536
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: that they were still alive the next day, and blissfully

537
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: unaware that that was that horrible thing were going to

538
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: happen to them. So really tangible impacts like.

539
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: That, Oh, I mean, how lucky we are to all

540
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: be so blissfully unaware but while you're taking care of

541
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: the safety of the nation, what about your own safety.

542
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: That's what keeps coming to mind for me. And there

543
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: were two examples in the threat assessment that I really

544
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: found fascinating and wanted to ask you about. One was

545
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: government personnel being given gifts by international counterparts, which you

546
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: would imagine is a normal part of having international relations,

547
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: but the presence contained concealed surveillance devices, which it does

548
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: sound like the movies. And then another one was a

549
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: foreign intelligence service wanting to silence an Australian based human

550
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: rights activist, and there was a scheme to trick them

551
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: into visiting a third country where plotters would be waiting

552
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: for them, and they'd plan to arrange an accident where

553
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: they would either be seriously injured or killed, and Azio

554
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: foiled that plot. So that just makes me think, like,

555
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 2: you're subject to a lot of danger. Do you ever

556
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: get scared? Like, are you worried yourself in your job?

557
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: I think because of the huge support structure we've got

558
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: here and the training that we've got we go through.

559
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: When you're recruited as an intelligence officer, particularly, you go

560
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: through a rigorous twelve month training program. Then if you

561
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: want to, you can go through further training to become

562
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: an intelligence officer. So you've already got a really solid

563
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: foundation of training behind you to bring out all of

564
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: those skills and tradecraft requirements that you really need. In addition,

565
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: ASIO is a team sport. One of the things that

566
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: gets me about the movies that we see it's always

567
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: one person, but for me, that one individual represents a

568
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: team of people who are all bringing about a similar

569
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: operation or something like that that they couldn't just do

570
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: by themselves. And within that particular operation, there's a whole

571
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: structure of people back in headquarters or wherever they happen

572
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: to be supporting it as well or putting in all

573
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: the enablers that they need to bring that operation about again,

574
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: so that we can bring about the impossible or make

575
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: it look like we have done something that our adversaries

576
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: just expect us to do. So whilst some of our

577
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: work is not without risk, we take measured risks and

578
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: we invest where we think there's going to be sufficient

579
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: enough reward. We really rely on the training, the support,

580
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: and of course health and safety and making sure our

581
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: people are always safe is paramount here. So yeah, no,

582
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: not felt unsafe, certainly exhilarated by some of the jobs

583
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: I've done. Well, you sound incredibly brave to me. But

584
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: you mentioned your training, and I imagine that would be

585
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: very rigorous because you are putting yourself on the line physically, mentally, emotionally.

586
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that's a huge psychological component to it. But again,

587
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: the reference point for most of us is the farm.

588
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: It's the CIA training. So as much as you can

589
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: share what is it actually like for you guys, it

590
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: will really depend on what job. Of course, I can

591
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: talk about the intelligence streams, So the new recruits begin

592
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: with the Intelligence Development Program or we call it the IDP,

593
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: So that's the twelve months training program that qualifies you

594
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: to become an intelligence analyst and work as an intelligence

595
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: analyst is so you have a lot of responsibility, but

596
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: you are at the center of everything. You are driving

597
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: the investigations, you are tasking the collectors. You are the

598
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: hub in the hub and spoke model. So it's an

599
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: incredible career pathway in and of itself. Then if people

600
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: want to, they can elect to do some further training,

601
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: which is again very rigorous. It goes for about six

602
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: months plus some additional on the end, and that's to

603
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: become an intelligence officer, and that's where you can work

604
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: in human So that's the collection of human intelligence, and

605
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: that's working alongside human sources who become part of Team

606
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: Australia to keep Australia safe.

607
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's so cool. And if you read as many

608
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: spy novels as I do, you'll already know terms like

609
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: human for human intelligence, seek INT for signals intelligence, there's

610
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: many more of them, but human intelligence, I mean it

611
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: sounds fascinating, like cultivating assets and getting out on the

612
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: ground for intelligence analyst. Would that be more of an

613
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: office based position at the start?

614
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: Certainly more office based, but I wouldn't say exclusively in

615
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: the office. Each of our roles has such a great

616
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: amount of variety in them, so there's a lot of

617
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: opportunities for travel or engagement with other organizations, or sometimes

618
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: you need to go to the place that we're collecting

619
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: the information as an analyst to provide that specific subject

620
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: matter skill insight. A lot of it is desk based,

621
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: for sure. Anyone thinking of applying, you'll spend a lot

622
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: of your time at the desk, but it's not like

623
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: you're bound to the desk every day.

624
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: And then once you do that extra six months, that's

625
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: more of a hands on out collecting.

626
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely engaging with members of the community who in themselves

627
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: are heroes in my mind who work with us to

628
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: keep Australia so, oh my gosh, that is so cool.

629
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: It's a lot of fun. It's a really great line

630
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: of work.

631
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, But then you can't tell anyone about it, which

632
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: is I think the thing that a lot of us

633
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: struggle to get our heads around. Under the ASIER legislation,

634
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: the identity of every single employee at ASIO is a

635
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: secret except for the Director General and sometimes the deputies.

636
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 2: So can you tell your friends and family?

637
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: We are allowed to tell some of our very closest

638
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: family members, and that's really important for us.

639
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: Actually.

640
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: Whilst we have incredible support networks within the organization and

641
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: incredible colleagues that you can share with, and incredible support structures,

642
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: it's really critical that we can go home to a

643
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: trusted person or people and just say I've had a

644
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: really tricky day or I've had a great day. You

645
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: can't really talk about the specifics of that, but our

646
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: friends and family are our most important support structure, and

647
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: anyone listening we thank you so much for everything you do.

648
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: But having that support just means that we get the

649
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: validation that we need sometimes, or just the chance to

650
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: hop home and pop in front of the TV and

651
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: not have to have to explain it.

652
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: It's amazing that you have such a good support system

653
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: around you. But that whole element of secrecy also brings

654
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: up something else we talk about a lot on the show,

655
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: and that's the idea of success, our definition of success,

656
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: and the metrics we use to measure our life. I

657
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: think commonly we spend a long time chasing success, and

658
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 2: that could be financial, whatever that may be, but then

659
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: inevitably reach a point in life where we realize full

660
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: moment is a much better metric or a much more

661
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: satisfying metric. That's so true. But when we are measuring

662
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: our success, whatever that means for so many people, a

663
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: part of success is being able to share that and

664
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: express it and share the wins. And we all have

665
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: a LinkedIn page where we sort of celebrate all the

666
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: highs and lows. And not only is as you mentioned,

667
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: you being an intelligence difficult because you can't share all

668
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: the biggest, most exciting things that you're working on, but

669
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: also from a success metric, it would be really difficult

670
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: to not boast, but you can't be proud of the

671
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: things that you're doing. Has that been an adjustment to

672
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: people in the organization find it difficult in a culture

673
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: where we're all yelling about our achievements that you can't

674
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: do that.

675
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: One thing we do well is celebrating success within these walls,

676
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: when someone does a phenomenal job, we really call them

677
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: out for it and we celebrate them. And if you're

678
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: part of a team, there is absolutely no high like

679
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: stopping a spy, stopping a terrorist attack, knowing that people

680
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: walking the streets of Australia safe around alive because of

681
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: what you've stopped happening, what you've done to stop a

682
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: horrible thing happening to them, and they're none the wiser.

683
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: There's nothing like a team celebration once you've pulled something

684
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: like that off. And I think for us, I'm sure

685
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: many of your listeners are the quiet overachievers that don't

686
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: always go for the recognition, and that's who feel this building.

687
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: We look at the colleagues beside us, who we respect

688
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: incredibly and go, we did that together, and then we

689
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: crack on because there's always another job, and maybe we

690
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: share a glass of wine or something with our friends

691
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: and family at the end of the week to say,

692
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: something really good happened this week and we can celebrate

693
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: with them. But we're not in it for the public accolades.

694
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: We're not in it for the glory. Coming back to

695
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, the pride and satisfaction of

696
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: doing a job and doing it well. I feel like

697
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: that's enough of a motivator and that's enough fulfillment for me.

698
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: It probably sounds a bit ironic to our listeners coming

699
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: from me who's very focused on social media and there

700
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: is a very big public element to all the things

701
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: that I do, but it resonated really strongly the idea

702
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: of secrecy and the idea of privacy and the value

703
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: of like, you don't always have to be yelling about

704
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: things for them to be valuable. And I think we

705
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: do live in an age where people expect information as

706
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: a right, and I think that we deserve to know

707
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: everything all the time. And this is exactly the organization

708
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 2: that's a reminder that actually some things are more valuable

709
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: when they're not necessarily disseminated really widely. And I really

710
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: valued that reminder.

711
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and we have a Director General who really values

712
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: sharing whatever we can, So if people haven't listened to

713
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: his threat assessments that he releases each year, certainly have

714
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: a look, goal listen, look or listen to them because

715
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of our successes in there that we

716
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have shared ten years ago, but that we're

717
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: really pushing the boundaries and sharing as much as we

718
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: possibly can, because like you, we also do want to

719
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: shout it from the rooftops where we can. There's just

720
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: a few where, well a lot where we can't share

721
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: it because to do so would undermine whatever we were

722
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: seeking to achieve. Yeah, We've mentioned it a few times

723
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: during this episode, but I'm not sure if I've explained.

724
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: The Annual Threat Assessment is delivered every year by the

725
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: Director General of ASIO, and this year it's the sixth

726
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: public annual Threat Assessment delivered by Mike Burgess and it's

727
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: basically the main way that AZIO communicates with the public

728
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 1: about its activities about the most direct and serious threats

729
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: to Australian national security. And as we mentioned, currently Mike

730
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: Burgess is a little bit more open than previous Directors General,

731
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: so he has declassified. In this year's a lot more

732
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: of Azio's successes for us to hear about, so I

733
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: highly recommend that you have a listen or a read.

734
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: I'll include the link in the show notes. And another

735
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: thing that was quite overwhelming was the Director General said

736
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: this one was quite different to previous years, and that's

737
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: because the security landscape has changed so dramatically I think

738
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. He described it as everything everywhere, all

739
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: at once. So whereas in the past we faced clear

740
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: adversaries like you know, discrete organizations like al Qaeda, or

741
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: clear enemies like Bin Laden, and now enemies could be

742
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: loane actors who aren't necessarily in organized groups, who aren't

743
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: necessarily religiously motivated or theologically motivated, and who are just

744
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: joined by common random grievances and they've found each other

745
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: on the internet. We're facing a problem with radicalized miners.

746
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: And that just blew me away, and I realized just

747
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: how blissfully ignorant we are all lucky to be, except,

748
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: of course, you guys aren't. You're surrounded by this information

749
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: all day, and this being a podcast fundamentally about joy

750
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: and finding the AA's, how do you do that? When

751
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: you're immersed so deeply in national security threats?

752
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: Are you paranoid? Is it difficult?

753
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: Like?

754
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: How do you find the joy?

755
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: I should probably do some self with reflection myself and

756
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: decide that cous work at ASIO is addictive. So you

757
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: are doing something incredibly important and incredibly meaningful every single day.

758
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: And I mean that speaking across the spectrum of stuff

759
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: that we have working here. There's no job in ASO

760
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: that is not important. And I think because of that,

761
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: I guess it is maybe I was just more cynically

762
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: minded to begin with anyway, but I think maybe that

763
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: does make us question things a little bit more. But

764
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: what I really love is that at the end of

765
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: a really long week, I can get out of the

766
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: office and spend time in the community, or if I'm

767
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: working a weekend, I'll take some time during the week

768
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: to do that. I love spending time with my family.

769
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: I've got two kids as well, and they keep me

770
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: really busy. And I know for many parents life is

771
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: hard and tricky at times, but I challenge anyone with

772
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: kids not to find joy as well.

773
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, do you find that? I mean, I guess one

774
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: of the things that is amazing is you can switch

775
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: off in a strange way, because you can't bring your

776
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: work home because you can't talk about it with all

777
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: the people around you, So you don't you know, people

778
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: don't have the sort of luxury of being able to

779
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: force you to talk about work outside of work. Like

780
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 2: how do you switch off? You mentioned you do watch

781
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 2: spy shows.

782
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: I would have thought, can you be sick of it?

783
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't, because it's so different and they are incredibly entertaining.

784
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: When we can switch off, I try and do that

785
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: very well. So I've got a family, I've got a

786
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: husband that works outside of the organization, and he's very

787
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: supportive Hi Hunt. He's a huge support structure for me,

788
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: knowing that there are times absolutely that we can't take

789
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: our work home, but there are other times when, unfortunately

790
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: the spies and terrorists we're trying to stop don't work

791
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: bau hours so rude, yeah, extended hours. But when we're

792
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: not in the office, I love doing all the things

793
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: that most other mums like doing as well, so spending

794
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: time with kids. I love long distance running, baking, I

795
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: do a mean brownie, read books, of course, binge, my

796
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: favorite TV show or whatever is on whatever streaming service

797
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: we've got on that day, lots of really normal things

798
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: to decompress and spend time with the people I love.

799
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: Do people generally find it hard to date in the

800
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: organization or do they often date each other because it

801
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: would be really hard to describe what you do or

802
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 2: for anyone else to really understand kind of what you face.

803
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely easier offices day, and our security, I suppose is

804
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: one of the key things that we need to keep

805
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: in mind during any relationship. Really, however much we share

806
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: about ourselves, particularly about our work, once you've told someone,

807
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: you can't untell them. So in the dating game, people

808
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: have told me, of course, you don't just disclose. Oh

809
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: my goodness, I'm an easy officer. If anyone's doing that,

810
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: it's a red flag walk away. But for me, I

811
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: think about it in terms of my kids, and they

812
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: don't know where I work at the moment, and not

813
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: telling that to them is as much for their protection

814
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: as it is for mine. So I'll see how we

815
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: go with the teenageers. I look forward to telling them

816
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: one day. But for us, it's always for any asy officer,

817
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: it's just about being really careful about what we share,

818
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: what we put on social media.

819
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: Wait, you guys are allowed to have social media of course. Yeah.

820
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you just have to be really discerning. Like

821
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: you were saying, there parts of any public person's life

822
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: that they want to protect and keep private.

823
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh my goodness, Oh this is so interesting to

824
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: finish off. Is there anything that people might be surprised

825
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: about what you do? Or yeah? I guess what I

826
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 2: was going to say, what you get us the most?

827
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: But of course most people don't know. Yeah, what would

828
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: surprise people about what you do?

829
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: Oh? I'm sure lots, because we can't share everything. But

830
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: I think the things for me, we are an incredibly

831
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: serious organization, and we work incredibly hard and take our

832
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: work so seriously because we know that the public is

833
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: trusting us to keep them safe. So that's really sacrisanct

834
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: for us that we deliver on that and that where

835
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: we can, we make sure that we do keep them safe.

836
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: We're not all seeing and all knowing. But I think

837
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: one thing that would surprise people to know is that

838
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: we have a lot of fun while we're doing it.

839
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: We don't take ourselves that seriously within the realms of propriety.

840
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: We just have a lot of fun in our work

841
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: day to day. We joke. We have rivalries, we're incredibly

842
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: competitive as a cohort, and I think that that just

843
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: makes the workplace magic to be in. And I think

844
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: the other one for me that I was certainly surprised by,

845
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: and going back to the spy dramas, you look around

846
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: in those spy dramas and women are in the support roles.

847
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 1: They're the ones bringing the cups of tea, or they're

848
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: typing up the minutes or other things. And one thing

849
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: I've found in being a decision maker at some of

850
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: those tables, I'm looking across at some of the most

851
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: fierce and most amazing female leaders alongside our male colleagues

852
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: while we're making decisions about incredible operations.

853
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 2: Oh I love that. And just one last guilty pleasure question.

854
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: We like to finish every episode with a favorite quote,

855
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: and I believe you have prepared a couple.

856
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: I couldn't decide because I like many many quotes. The

857
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: first one I actually got from you never regret kindness.

858
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: You never regret kindness true, And I think that continues

859
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: to hit really hard with me because at times when

860
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: you are overwhelmed, overworked, busy, distracted, being kind is a superpower.

861
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely I have seen so many colleagues here, but also

862
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: people out there in life. Some of the greatest acts

863
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: of I think courage and grace have come from taking

864
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: the time to be kind and leading with kindness, and

865
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: I think that that's a really good reminder for me

866
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 1: day to day. And the other quote that I really

867
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: like is that culture eats strategy for breakfast.

868
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: Oh. I love that.

869
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: Of course, strategy is important, but the culture of where

870
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: you are, how a place makes you feel, how empowered

871
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: or included or welcome a place makes you feel, I think,

872
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: really determines how much of yourself you can bring and

873
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: how strong you are in your performance in a certain place,

874
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: or how comfortable you are. And so I often think

875
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: back to when I first joined the organization and the

876
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: glib thought that I had that I'd give it a year.

877
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: But I think back to that and I think about

878
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: the culture that my colleagues have brought along every day

879
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: here and that I've been so lucky to be a

880
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: part of. That's seen me stay for so many more

881
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: years than one year. And I'm described as a lifer.

882
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: You're never leaving.

883
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: There's too many other jobs here that I can and

884
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: want to do. That's because of the amazing culture that

885
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I get to work in each day.

886
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: Which is actually quite extraordinary when you think about the

887
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 2: subject matter and the seriousness and heaviness of what you

888
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: all do, that the clor can still reflect such lightness.

889
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so visible how excited you are about

890
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 2: your job to be here, and that's really special.

891
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very lucky. It's a privilege.

892
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: Oh what an amazing way to finish well. Thank you

893
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: so much. This has been obviously so special for me

894
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: as a person, but such a privilege to be able

895
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: to share with our listeners.

896
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: Wonderful to speak with you. Thank you.

897
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean, I still have no words for this conversation.

898
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: I've listened to it multiple times through editing, and it

899
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: just never gets any less impressive, even without being able

900
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: to share all the details. This was one of the

901
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: coolest conversations I've been lucky enough to have, and I

902
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: hope that you guys were equally as captivated by our guest.

903
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: As we discussed she doesn't look like your typical spy,

904
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: But what I found even cooler is the fact that

905
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: there is no typical spy. So again, if any listeners

906
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: are interested in applying for Azio and maybe fancy themselves

907
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: as a future intelligence officer. There is a current recruitment

908
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: campaign on and I've included links in the show notes

909
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: for those of you who are keen. I'm so grateful

910
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: to Azo for allowing us a peek into the clandestine

911
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: world that allows the rest of us to live in

912
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: safe and blissful ignorance. My teaser content in the lead

913
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 2: up to this episode has revealed that so many of

914
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: you are fellow fans of espionage and intelligence, which was

915
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: delightful to discover. So if you did enjoy this, please

916
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: let me know or send any comments and questions because

917
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: it's an area of conversation that I will never tire of.

918
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: I may have some potential further leads also in this industry,

919
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: and there have been some amazing conversations over on spy

920
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: Talk if any of you follow me there, so I

921
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: would love to know if you're interested to hear more,

922
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: who you're interested to hear from, and what you're interested

923
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: to hear about, and I can do some digging in

924
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: the meantime. I hope you're having an amazing week and

925
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 2: are seizing your yeay