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Speaker 1: A couple of notes before we begin. This episode discusses

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Speaker 1: topics related to child sexual abuse, eating disorders, and mental health,

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Speaker 1: and may not be suitable for all listeners. Please take

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Speaker 1: care while listening, and if you're struggling, please don't hesitate

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Speaker 1: to call lifeline. On thirteen eleven fourteen, the episode wasn't

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Speaker 1: planned around the news cycle this week, but I do

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Speaker 1: feel grateful to be helping shed light on child sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse at such a tough time for many Australian families.

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Speaker 1: One a hundred Respect is another great resource should you

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Speaker 1: want anyone you know require support in the area of

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Speaker 1: domestic or sexual violence. Finally, due to uncooperative Internet, the

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Speaker 1: audio does get a bit echoe at times, but nothing

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Speaker 1: can dull the impact and eloquence of grace tame, as

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Speaker 1: you will very soon find out. Thank you always for listening.

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Speaker 2: Never pans out the way you imagine it, for better

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Speaker 2: or for worse. You know, expectations have never met exactly.

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Speaker 2: Someone else tosses aside their shame. What that does is

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Speaker 2: allow other people to feel emboldened to toss aside their

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Speaker 2: shame as well.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Seize the Ya podcast. Busy and Happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore, the.

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Speaker 2: Good, bad and ugly.

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Speaker 1: The best and worst days will bear all the facets

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Speaker 1: of seizing your yea. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful

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Speaker 1: of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur who swapped the suits

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Speaker 1: and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk bar.

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Speaker 2: Sez the Ya is.

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Speaker 1: A series of conversations on finding a life you love

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Speaker 1: and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along

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Speaker 1: the way.

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Speaker 2: We all know.

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Speaker 1: I rarely find myself struggling with words, but certain guests

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Speaker 1: and their stories simply defy adequate description. This bio, the

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Speaker 1: questions for this week, the edit, then the snippets all

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Speaker 1: took me much longer than usual, and still I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure they do justice to the extraordinary Grace Tame. I

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Speaker 1: was lucky enough to interview Grace at an event back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, where her bravery and eloquence, moved

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Speaker 1: a room full of excitable adults to still silent or

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Speaker 1: getting the chance to chat with her again then share

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Speaker 1: it all with you guys this week feels like such

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Speaker 1: a great privilege and again found me quite lost for words. Grace,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, speaks with such clarity and composure,

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Speaker 1: even on her unfathomable experiences of trauma and pain as

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Speaker 1: a survivor of child sexual abuse both at the age

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Speaker 1: of six and fifteen. She has become a powerful advocate

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Speaker 1: for legal reform, reduction of stigma, and primary prevention of

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Speaker 1: sexual violence against children. Add to that many complex layers

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Speaker 1: including anorexia, domestic violence, late diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder,

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Speaker 1: and having all of it laid bare before an entire nation,

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Speaker 1: becoming Australian of the Year at just twenty six while

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Speaker 1: still processing everything in real time, and there you have

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Speaker 1: a journey unimaginable to most of us. And yet Grace's

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Speaker 1: capacity not only to continue her advocacy with the Grace

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Speaker 1: Tame Foundation, but also to find pockets of joy, hope

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Speaker 1: and love in between is perhaps the part that blows

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Speaker 1: me away the most. I won't attempt to say much

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Speaker 1: more as it does continue to feel quite inadequate, But

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful not only to have the chance to

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Speaker 1: continue raising awareness of complex issues like grooming and consent

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Speaker 1: through this conversation, but also to share some parts of

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Speaker 1: Grace that you don't normally hear as much about elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: You know, That's the part I love the most about

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Speaker 1: this show. And being a child sexual abuse survivor is

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Speaker 1: just not the totality of Grace Tame. She is funny, quirky,

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Speaker 1: reflective and hopeful, an ultra marathon runner, an artist, an author, bookworm,

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Speaker 1: and dedicated friend. Despite a pathway in which she was

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Speaker 1: given no choice and where finding her yeay could not

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Speaker 1: be the main focus, Unlike many of our guests, she

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Speaker 1: somehow finds it anyway. I hope you and joy this

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Speaker 1: one as much as I did. Grace Tame, welcome to

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Speaker 1: seize the A thank.

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Speaker 2: You for having me, Sarah. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm the excited one. I'm in such

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Speaker 1: awe of everything you do and know how busy you are,

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Speaker 1: so it feels like a real privilege to have some

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Speaker 1: of your time today.

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Speaker 2: Well, the privilege is all mine. Any opportunity that we

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Speaker 2: get to speak is one we should be grateful for.

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Speaker 1: Well, grateful is definitely one thing that I'm feeling. I

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Speaker 1: was so lucky to speak with you a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago and very much appreciate the chance to follow

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Speaker 1: that up today. But nervous is another one that I

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Speaker 1: mentioned offline, and that's partly wanting to do you and

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Speaker 1: your story and work justice, but also to adequately cover

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Speaker 1: the many dualities that exist in parts of your story,

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Speaker 1: one being that I think you speak even about the

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Speaker 1: most harrowing topics with so much.

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Speaker 2: Grace so to speak.

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Speaker 1: But I love that you're a little untame, and that

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Speaker 1: you have suffered immeasurable trauma in your life but are

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Speaker 1: still constantly smiling and finding joy or yay in your life.

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Speaker 1: And then that you've described your autism as manifesting as

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Speaker 1: discombobulation or difficulty expressing yourself, and yet you're one of

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Speaker 1: the most eloquent people I've ever heard speak. So many

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Speaker 1: many dualities there, but also it takes so much to

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Speaker 1: be ready to share all those parts of yourself, and

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Speaker 1: you do so so vulnerably. So maybe we could start

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Speaker 1: with what it takes for you to be here today

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Speaker 1: and to be ready to revisit such difficult, complex parts

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Speaker 1: of your life. Do you get nervous? How do you

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Speaker 1: prepare yourself to be so open?

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Speaker 2: Look, whilst it's important when speaking about complicated topics to

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Speaker 2: have you know, at least an entry level of knowledge

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Speaker 2: and evidence to draw upon lived experience, is also a

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Speaker 2: qualification in of itself, of which I have a wealth.

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Speaker 2: So I'll be honest with you. I don't ever rehearse

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Speaker 2: for an interview or do much preparation besides familiarize myself

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Speaker 2: with the interviewer, because I think that that's an important

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Speaker 2: thing to do. What you're trying to achieve when having

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Speaker 2: a dialogue is a connection between those engaged in that dialogue,

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Speaker 2: even if there's disagreement. So I think it's a market

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Speaker 2: basic respect to know the person that you're speaking to.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love that.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise I know myself, I know my experience inside out.

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Speaker 2: You can't fake speaking from the heart. For some people

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Speaker 2: who don't speak very often, I think the nerves can

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Speaker 2: come from and we were speaking about this offline as well,

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Speaker 2: the nerves can come from, you know, really wanting to

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Speaker 2: articulate your ideas clearly and not make any mistakes. But

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Speaker 2: that's also part of a natural conversation. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to speak word perfect, and it's okay to get a

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Speaker 2: word or to slightly out of place, or your grammar,

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Speaker 2: your sentence structure. You're syntax slightly out of place when

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Speaker 2: you're having a conversation, so long as your passion is

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Speaker 2: clear and your overarching message is clear.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, although my perfection side finds that difficult, So I

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Speaker 1: think that is where some of the nerves came from.

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Speaker 1: Wanting to do this perfectly, but also because of the

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Speaker 1: magnitude and complexity of a lot of your life experiences

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Speaker 1: and my personal lack of familiarity in covering the nuance

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Speaker 1: and emotions involved. Plus, when you have followed someone's work

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Speaker 1: closely and read their book and had the chance to

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Speaker 1: meet them, you want to show other facets of who

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Speaker 1: they are. And one of the things I love the

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Speaker 1: most about this show is diving into chapters that aren't

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Speaker 1: as exhaustively covered elsewhere, And I love that in the

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Speaker 1: earth pages of your book you write that time hasn't

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Speaker 1: defined my unfinished experience of life, and so being a

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Speaker 1: survivor of child sexual abuse is not the totality of

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Speaker 1: who you are, despite it being the chapter that many

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Speaker 1: of us were introduced to you through. So perhaps we

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Speaker 1: could go back to the early days, to young Grace

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Speaker 1: and who you wanted to be, what you thought you'd be.

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Speaker 1: It's an incredible career that you have now, and yet

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Speaker 1: not one that you were sitting there thinking I want

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Speaker 1: to be when I grow up.

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Speaker 2: So what else did did I consider? Other career bads

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Speaker 2: to being an activist against child sexual abuse?

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Speaker 1: But I guess that is what's so unique is most

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Speaker 1: of our guests, we spend a lot of time on

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Speaker 1: the painstaking planning put into what they choose to do

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Speaker 1: with their life. Whereas you know, no one dreams of

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Speaker 1: becoming an advocate for a traumatic event that is involuntarily

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Speaker 1: visited upon them. So I would love to know what

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Speaker 1: you had envision for yourself. I know you love art

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Speaker 1: and you love yoga, So what did you think that

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Speaker 1: you would become.

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Speaker 2: It's a great question because in hindsight, I don't think

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Speaker 2: there was ever a static goal. As you've identified, there

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Speaker 2: are lots of things that I was interested in as

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Speaker 2: a child that I enjoyed doing, and I retain that

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Speaker 2: same sense of enthusiasm and curiosity. My love of learning. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was always very active. I loved to run around,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful that I grew up on that

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Speaker 2: sort of cusp as a millennial, but on that cusp

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Speaker 2: before the Internet, which it existed for a couple of

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Speaker 2: decades already, but its role in our daily life was

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Speaker 2: not so prominent. I think that that meant that, you know,

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Speaker 2: creativity was more free flowing, and the sort of more

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Speaker 2: fragmented life that we live now, it looked very different.

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Speaker 2: I recall when I was very young, sitting on the

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Speaker 2: carpet at my mother's house. My parents has been separated

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Speaker 2: since I was two years old, but being on the

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Speaker 2: carpet at my mother's house drawing and my mother in

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Speaker 2: particular very much encouraged all of the different areas of

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Speaker 2: interest that she herself fostered. She used to say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you would be a good lawyer. She would say, you know,

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Speaker 2: you would be a great artist as well. When I

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Speaker 2: was ten or eleven, I was involved in some of

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Speaker 2: the school drama performances, and it was clear that I

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Speaker 2: really very much enjoyed inhabiting different characters, and that's what

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Speaker 2: led me to audition for the School of Performing Arts

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Speaker 2: at the High school that I eventually was accepted into

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Speaker 2: on a scholarship for performing arts as well as academia.

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Speaker 2: That's where I was headed. I think for a time

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Speaker 2: was towards potentially performing arts, potentially acting as a career.

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Speaker 2: But again also in the background, I was very passionate

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Speaker 2: about languages, in particular German and writing creative writings, was

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Speaker 2: analytical writing, which is something that has cropped up again

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Speaker 2: later in my life. I contribute to various publications with

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Speaker 2: opinion pieces and reviews like I don't know and I'll

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Speaker 2: be honest with you. Everything did sort of fall apart

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Speaker 2: after my experience of not just prolonged but CITI stick

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Speaker 2: child sexual abuse as a fifteen year old, you know,

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Speaker 2: not just sort of breaks your whole world, it redirects it.

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Speaker 2: And for a long time, up until very recently, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, I've just been following where life led me.

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Speaker 2: There's not been a lot of design, a lot of

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Speaker 2: planning to my life. I've been in sort of survival

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Speaker 2: mode with limited agency and whilst for example, the platform

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Speaker 2: in Australian of the Year has given me so many

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Speaker 2: opportunities which I'm eternally thankful for and I understand It's

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Speaker 2: not an experience that everyone has the privilege of having. However,

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Speaker 2: the reality of it behind the scenes is very different

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Speaker 2: to I think the perception of it in the public eye.

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Speaker 2: There's you know, very little time to do anything except

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Speaker 2: respond to the different requests that come your way and

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Speaker 2: to be pulled in the sort of different directions. You know,

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Speaker 2: the multidirectional pressure is quite difficult to manage, and the

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Speaker 2: pace and the frequency of various different competing events and

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Speaker 2: tasks sort of prohibits time to absorb them all and

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Speaker 2: to make clear choices that aren't kind of you know. Again,

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Speaker 2: you find yourself moving in one direction and then you

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Speaker 2: get pulled in another.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine having your choice and autonomy over the

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Speaker 1: direction of your life taken away so cruelly at such

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Speaker 1: a young age, only to then have the momentum of

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Speaker 1: your advocacy kind of take on a similar pace that

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Speaker 1: you don't have much control over. And you have stepped

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Speaker 1: up to the challenge so remarkably and are doing incredible

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Speaker 1: work with the Grace Tame Foundation. But another unique part

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Speaker 1: of even among Australian of the Year recipients is that

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Speaker 1: many awardees are being celebrated for an achievement in an

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Speaker 1: area they're passionate about. That's a skill or a talent

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Speaker 1: they've been voluntarily honing for their whole life, or it's

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Speaker 1: an invention. And in your case it's so different. It's

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Speaker 1: a traumatic event that happened to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think also too, most importantly, for an

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Speaker 2: achievement in a career that's already been established. And whilst

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Speaker 2: there was an achievement, a collective achievement, I think most

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Speaker 2: importantly that precipitated the Australian of the Year award. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was not central to my life. You know. I

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Speaker 2: had worked very briefly as an illustrator when I lived

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Speaker 2: in California for nearly six years there, when I was

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Speaker 2: eighteen years old, and in fact, nine months before us

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Speaker 2: named Australian of the Year, I was still living in

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Speaker 2: California and I was working in a retail job. And

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Speaker 2: then COVID hit and I moved back to Australia. I

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Speaker 2: was on job seeker payments, unemployed, living with my aunt

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Speaker 2: in a housing commission area, and then bam, Australian of

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Speaker 2: the Year happened very suddenly.

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Speaker 1: I just can't even imagine the freight train that hit

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Speaker 1: you at that time, and people do forget there are

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Speaker 1: entire chapters and jobs.

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Speaker 2: That you had.

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Speaker 1: There was a whole period in the US before Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we met you as Australian of the Year and I

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Speaker 1: don't even know how you've come up for air since then.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I learned how to breathe underwater.

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Speaker 1: Another one of your exclusive.

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Speaker 2: CSVA reveals Grace Tame actually.

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Speaker 1: Fish, another of the many hats that you wear, and

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Speaker 1: another example bringing it back to the fact that the

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Speaker 1: totality of Grace Tane is not child sexual assault survivor

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Speaker 1: an incredible advocate. Despite that being a big part of

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Speaker 1: your life's work, there are so many other aspects to

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Speaker 1: who you are. You have passions and interest and parts

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Speaker 1: of the story we don't worry about, like how dares

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Speaker 1: she have a whole life? For example, your school years.

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Speaker 1: You know that's meant to be such a beautiful time

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Speaker 1: of self discovery and innocence that we know was devastatingly

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Speaker 1: torn away from you later in your school years. But

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Speaker 1: what about before then? In primary school? What was school

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Speaker 1: like for you? I think another thing you speak often

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Speaker 1: about is your neurodivergence and autism being diagnosed, actually not

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Speaker 1: until you were nineteen, but in hindsight, looking back at

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Speaker 1: the way that the school system is sometimes slanted towards

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Speaker 1: particular kinds of intelligence and can maybe not always be

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Speaker 1: conducive to neurodivergence students being able to flourish or understanding

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Speaker 1: that they are clever, particularly back in the nineties and

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Speaker 1: early two thousands. I'd love for you to explain to

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Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't maybe understand autism how it manifested for

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Speaker 1: you at that time, and what your experience was like

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Speaker 1: at school around then.

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Speaker 2: Before high school. I loved school. I loved school. It's

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Speaker 2: where I met my best friend who we're still best

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Speaker 2: friends today. His name is Don Cabella. Yes Tom, Yes,

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Speaker 2: the famous Dom and his family who are equally my friends.

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Speaker 2: They're a second family of mine. Not only did we

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Speaker 2: go to school together, but we lived close by. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: Dom and I met when we were bouth seven years

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Speaker 2: old with their grand friends. For over twenty three years,

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Speaker 2: we just sort of lived in our own oblivious world.

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Speaker 2: We were very carefree and still are able to communicate,

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Speaker 2: you know, not just in words, but in this sort

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Speaker 2: of spoken implicit language, and we made our way through

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Speaker 2: primary school being odd balls, but also being accepted. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I was the only girl on primary school soccer team,

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Speaker 2: and I was often, as a result, the only girl

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Speaker 2: invited to birthday parties, and I was not. As you know,

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Speaker 2: I knew that I was different in some ways, but

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Speaker 2: you know, when difference is celebrated, it's not a barrier.

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Speaker 2: That's how people react to that difference that actually makes it,

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Speaker 2: that takes it away from being it being a neutral

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Speaker 2: thing that actually enhances everyone's quality of life. I'm also

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Speaker 2: lucky to come from a very on my mother's side, especially,

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Speaker 2: but on my father's side as well. Interestingly, my parents

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Speaker 2: have been divorced since I was two. As I said,

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Speaker 2: but my father's sister is living with us at my

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Speaker 2: mother's place, which has sort of three units or connected.

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Speaker 2: There's a house, and then there's a unit next door

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Speaker 2: that I live in, and then underneath their houses.

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Speaker 1: And wow, that's very tazzy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, everyone actually in Tasmanias related. My family

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Speaker 2: very very close and very supportive and very quirky, and

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Speaker 2: so I always felt like, you know, despite my difference,

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Speaker 2: as I fit in quite well. Although when I got

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Speaker 2: to high school. That was a different world that I

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Speaker 2: didn't quite belong what I felt like I belonged to

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Speaker 2: or in. And that was a world of you know,

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Speaker 2: tradition and status, and you know, it was an all

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Speaker 2: girls environment, which is, you know, not something that I

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Speaker 2: was accustomed to at a co ed school where not

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Speaker 2: only was I at a co ed school where that

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Speaker 2: was you know, that that sort of more natural mixing,

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Speaker 2: but I had been friends predominantly with men or boys.

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Speaker 1: So interesting that in many different contexts of difference, that

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Speaker 1: primary school is often reflected on as a time where

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Speaker 1: kids don't really notice, you know, they're so young, they're

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Speaker 1: unconditioned by societal ideas as normality, like whether there's physical disabilities, neurodivergence, race.

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, one of the only Asians in

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Speaker 1: a very very white local primary school, but it just

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily noticed or a thing. And then high school

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Speaker 1: is this rude awakening for everyone where difference is suddenly

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Speaker 1: other and less than and yeah, it's quite a rude

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Speaker 1: shock to show.

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Speaker 2: Humanity is many things, and it has its flaws, and

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest flaws, and we're seeing it play

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Speaker 2: out in the in the geopolitical climate right now. One

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Speaker 2: of its biggest flaws, it's discrimination, but that is concocted,

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Speaker 2: that's manufactured human beings. We ascribe meaning to things, whether

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Speaker 2: it's a person or you know, a material, a commodity.

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Speaker 2: We've created a whole system of value that reflects a

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Speaker 2: very narrow cohort, you know, And that's if we're being real.

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Speaker 2: It's the white supremacist hegemony, the sort of the colonial

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Speaker 2: imperial hegemony that has dimmed things to be of more

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Speaker 2: value than others.

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Speaker 1: And I think that also manifests sometimes as a hierarchy

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Speaker 1: of intellect and the view that certain types of cleverness

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Speaker 1: are more valuable than others, which coming back to you

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Speaker 1: being undiagnosed until nineteen. I think many people do go

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Speaker 1: through the schooling system not knowing that they're clever because

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Speaker 1: they're differently clever, and that later diagnoses can be very

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Speaker 1: validating and a big relief. But for anyone who doesn't

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Speaker 1: know much about autism, can you explain how it manifested

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Speaker 1: or manifests for you and what it feels like. I've

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Speaker 1: read you describe it as you know, some people say

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Speaker 1: it's a superpower. I've read you say, it's not a superpower,

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Speaker 1: it's not less than it just is. So how would

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Speaker 1: you describe it to someone who didn't know much about it.

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Speaker 2: Autism is from birth to death. It's inherited. It's a

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Speaker 2: natural variation in the human genome that produces differences in

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Speaker 2: sensory processing, so processing stimuli that's both both coming in

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Speaker 2: and how things are communicated by other senses. And every

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Speaker 2: autistic person is different. That there tend to be that

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Speaker 2: there are some common traits. But you know, if you've

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Speaker 2: met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I was ever consciously until I was nineteen,

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Speaker 2: or actually even later. It's been in recent years. It's

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Speaker 2: probably been in the past three to four years that

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Speaker 2: I have consciously sought out and digested information about autism

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Speaker 2: that has been very useful. Prior to that, however, throughout

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Speaker 2: my life there were obvious science that I was autistic.

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Speaker 2: My mum, when I was three years old, took me

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Speaker 2: to hearing specialist because you thought I was deaf. It's

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Speaker 2: not that I'm deaf, it's that I can't filter out

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Speaker 2: background noises, which is something that autistic people often experience.

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Speaker 2: Not autistic people have auditory processing disorder, but many people

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Speaker 2: who are audistic. To many autistic people are highly sensitive

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Speaker 2: to humming noises or mechanical noises, so things like aeroplanes,

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Speaker 2: vacuum cleaners, hair dryers, hand dryers, and that was a

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Speaker 2: big red flag in my case. I was a very otherwise,

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Speaker 2: very placid baby. I didn't cry a lot. I would,

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Speaker 2: you know, if I woke up in the morning before

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Speaker 2: everyone else, which is obviously infants often do, I would

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Speaker 2: lie in my bassinet and I wouldn't cry. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: or be in distress. I would actually self soothe again

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Speaker 2: another autistic common autistic trade. Self soothed by clicking my tongue.

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Speaker 2: But if I was taken into a public restroom, that's

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Speaker 2: when I screamed, and it was quite jarring, I think

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Speaker 2: for my mother. But it was because of the sound

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Speaker 2: of the hand dryer. Oh my gosh. I didn't use

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Speaker 2: a hand dryer until I was in the eighth grade,

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Speaker 2: when my friend Gillian, who I'm still friends with today,

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, after this story, she forced me

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Speaker 2: by exposure therapy. I think that was the that was

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Speaker 2: the strategy she forced me to use a hand dryer.

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Speaker 2: But I like, I don't use them, and I also

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Speaker 2: don't like I will just shake my hands dry, or

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Speaker 2: much to my mother's discussed, I'll just wipe my wet

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Speaker 2: hands away.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's limited to autism, though, I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of us do that.

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Speaker 2: You know. I try to be I try to be

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Speaker 2: as environmentally conscious as I as I possibly can living

401
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Speaker 2: in the world that we do. But I also don't

402
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Speaker 2: like the texture of hand towels that pay the hand

403
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Speaker 2: towels so that I, yeah, it's wet hands for me

404
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Speaker 2: when I come out of the hot We love that. Yeah, hot,

405
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: we're hands wow. Okay. I mean just like things like

406
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Speaker 2: my ability to retain information and not necessarily consequential information either,

407
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Speaker 2: just like useless trivia, birth dates, numbers, that sort of thing.

408
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: I've had previous partners of mine joke about, you know,

409
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Speaker 2: you know, don't get an argument with her actually remembers everything.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because my my, my thought patterns, my speech

411
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Speaker 2: are often tangentile, but it's never because there are gaps.

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Speaker 2: It's that there's almost an excess of information that's all

413
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Speaker 2: competing to get out at the same time, and also

414
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Speaker 2: a fundamental understanding that many things that I'm speaking about

415
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Speaker 2: are either directly or indirectly linked. And so there's sort

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Speaker 2: of like curvey linear kind of tumbleweed of ideas in

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Speaker 2: my brain going at any one time.

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Speaker 1: And yet every time I hear you speak, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you must be doing an incredible amount of work

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Speaker 1: to rain in the tangents, because you always speak in

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Speaker 1: such an organized, orderly fashion.

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Speaker 2: That blows my mind. That blows you do.

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Speaker 1: Though it's wild, And so I think about I often

424
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Speaker 1: think about what it must take certain brains to get

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Speaker 1: to neutral before they can do what the average brain

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Speaker 1: is doing. And so to know how your brain, by

427
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Speaker 1: default is doing this tangent thing, I'm like, oh, my goodness,

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Speaker 1: you are extraordinary to channel it constantly into the articulate,

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Speaker 1: orderly wording that you come out with.

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Speaker 2: I have several analogies for the way that I see

431
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Speaker 2: my brain working and trying to harness specific ideas and

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Speaker 2: communicate them chronologically or as you see in it, in

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Speaker 2: a quote unquote organized fashion, which again that to me

434
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Speaker 2: blows my mind, because I always feel like it's very

435
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: not so much chaotic, but not necessarily ordered correctly. And

436
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: one of the analogies is it's her fishing analogy, which

437
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 2: is odd because I'm not a huge fisherman. Oh two

438
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: hour earlier point, I'm actually a fish. But I like

439
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: in my brain's containment of several ideas on different tracks,

440
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: as being like a charter boat with lots of different

441
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: rods and there's a tuna working on every single rod,

442
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: you know. I don't know, there might be like five

443
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: or ten rods with tunas hooked, and I'm trying to

444
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: just reel them in one at a time, you know.

445
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: And I'm reminding myself while I'm speaking often to large

446
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: crowds or in interviews, I mean, just just one, one

447
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: thing at a time, don't jump ahead, you know, because

448
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: you lose your grip.

449
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's more fishing analogies than I was expecting today,

450
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: But at least from the outside, it's extraordinary that you

451
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: have such an ability to articulate what you're thinking, especially

452
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: if behind the scenes there's all this action with the

453
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: fishing rods going on, because you do always seem so

454
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: composed and eloquent, which brings me to the chapter of

455
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: your life that you do speak about so vulnerably and eloquently,

456
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: and one that we mentioned earlier, is of course not

457
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: the future or direction that you had dreamed of for yourself,

458
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: but that you have embraced is probably not the right word,

459
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: but used as a platform to become a powerful advocate

460
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: for child sexual abuse survivors. You've changed the law in

461
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: this area, and you've changed many lives at great cost

462
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: to yourself. In revisiting this traumatic time of your life

463
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: as a survivor of child sexual abuse from the age

464
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: of fifteen at the hands of your fifty eight year

465
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: old teacher. That is unthinkable to most people in their world.

466
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: But the more we speak about things like the process

467
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: of grooming, the more people can understand what to look

468
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: for and perhaps how to prevent this happening in the future. So,

469
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: as much as you are comfortable with sharing today, can

470
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: you tell us a bit about this time of your life.

471
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: First of all, I just want to qualify that I

472
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: I haven't done any of this alone. I'm very fortunate,

473
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: and I think it's actually my greatest privilege, as I've mentioned,

474
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: to be surrounded by very loving, very caring, very attentive family,

475
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: in particular my mother, who one of my greatest advocates,

476
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: and my close friends who are like my family and

477
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: have never judged or faulted from the solid position of

478
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: backing me up. I just want to explain, you know,

479
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse for audiences, the reason why it's wrong.

480
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: It's not just you know, socially stigmatized, but it's wrong biologically.

481
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 2: And again, it's not just wrong legally, it's wrong biologically

482
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: because in every case of an adult offender abusing a

483
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: child victim, that adult is exploiting the incapacity of a child.

484
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: They're not socially developed, neurologically developed, or physically developed in

485
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: the way that an adult is, and therefore they do

486
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: not have the same capacity to even understand what is

487
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: happening to them, and that as a result of that,

488
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: there is a delay often in a child realizing the

489
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: extent of the harm that they have endured and then

490
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: being able to communicate that. That's not to say that

491
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: you don't actually you carry it at the cellular level,

492
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: because it does cause because it's brain damage. Your neural

493
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: pathways are altered by especially prolonged child sexual abuse, which

494
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: involves a deliberately warped system of punishment and reward, wherein

495
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: the offender will praise and gift a child if the

496
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: child behaves in accordance with what the offender wants, but

497
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: then by the same token the child will be threatened

498
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: or physically assaulted. Obviously there's the actual sexual abuse as well,

499
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: which you know it is awful. You know, in various

500
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: ways those sort of methods of control reinforce in the

501
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: child's mind through open being, recircuitry reinforces are very warped, dynamic.

502
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: It's taken me a long time to actually accept how

503
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: sadistic it was. I think that's one of one of

504
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: the things that's been hardest in hindsight, and it's been

505
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: through doing a lot of research actually and through having

506
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: conversations with others who upon hearing what happened to me,

507
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: which often I will speak about in quite a matter

508
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: of fact way, because once you want to and something,

509
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: you do actually take the sting out of it, the

510
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: emotion out of it. And if you want to change anything,

511
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: I think first you have to understand it. You have

512
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: to know what you're dealing with before you seek to

513
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: alter it and prevent it. In the case of child

514
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: sexually is what we want to do, is we want

515
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: to prevent it. My first experience of child Secuviies was

516
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: actually in the home. I was six years old and

517
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: older male child from my extended family offended against me

518
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: and some other children in my family. And at that

519
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: time I certainly didn't understand that what happened was wrong.

520
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: It was framed by this older male child as a

521
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: game and is often the case, you know, with offenders.

522
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: You know, you do have children who engage in harmful

523
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: sexual behaviors with other children. That's very common and not

524
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: something that we speak about often enough. And well there's

525
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: not adequate funding for the services that exist that can

526
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: help in those circumstances. But yeah, my first experience, I

527
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: was six years old, didn't disclose to anyone because I

528
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: didn't think there was anything to you disclose until I

529
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: was about ten years old, when I was just essentially

530
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: recounting a memory and experience with another of my cousin's

531
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: female cousin who she was five years older than me,

532
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: and she was quite distressed and told me that I

533
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: sh should tell my mother, and I told my mother

534
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: around that time. But again, even at ten years old,

535
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: the gravity of it had not occurred to me, and

536
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: it wasn't until I was in high school. In my

537
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: early teens, and we were learning about sex education, learning

538
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: about sex and the concept of incest briefly plopped up

539
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: and that shocked me. It also, I think had an

540
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: effect on well, I know that it had an impact

541
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: on another one of my cousins who was also abused,

542
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: and the female cousin and I we had lots of

543
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: discussions about that is I think one of the reasons

544
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: why her and I both engaged in some self harming behaviors.

545
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: I really struggled with annarexia at that point in my life,

546
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: and that's where my experience of feeling very different and

547
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: feeling very isolated, I think became the most prominent, the

548
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: most clear. I actually disclosed to one of one of

549
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: my teachers that I had been offended against as a child.

550
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: I described exactly what happened that I was asked by

551
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: this older male child to undress in a closet before

552
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: he sat me down on my bed and molested me

553
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: and encouraged me to touch him as well in a

554
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: sexual way, and this teacher sat on it for a while.

555
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: I didn't know that this teacher had a history of

556
00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: grooming and sexually abusing girls, and he used that information

557
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: as well as other information that he procured from me

558
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: about other family instability and other traumas, other things that

559
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: made me particularly vulnerable. Obviously for reasons I've stated, all

560
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: children are vulnerable. They're still developing socially, they're still developing biologically.

561
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 2: And then to introduce the contact defending of me, which

562
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 2: eventuated a few months later, he requested that I stay

563
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: back after school and he led me to a deserted

564
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: classroom in the science block after everyone had left, and

565
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: it was dark. It was winter at this point. And

566
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: what did he do. He requested me to undress in

567
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 2: a janitor's closet, so he actually recreated step by step

568
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: the abuse that I had disclosed at months earlier, which

569
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: again highlights the saddism that underpinned a lot of what

570
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 2: this adult of and then did. It's interesting because I've seen,

571
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: you know, and we do see in the media child

572
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. And I don't just mean in print media,

573
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: but I mean in content like films, and when we're

574
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: talking about pornography and child sexual abuse, material incest is

575
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: the most highly sought after and readily available. It's the

576
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: most prevalent form of both of those things. Of both

577
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: pornography and child exploitation material, so it's quite embedded in

578
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: our culture. And because of that, there are lots of

579
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: false narratives about child sexual abuse. You know, you know,

580
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: young girls are provocative and they want it, and that

581
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: it's the ultimate fantasy for a young boy to be

582
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 2: you know, groomed and have sexual contact with an older female.

583
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: In many cases, it's it is very complicated because offenders

584
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: will in order to maintain control over their over their victim,

585
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: just like they're able to coerce, you know, everyone around them.

586
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: It's not obvious violence always in some cases it is,

587
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: but that is often cushioned or couched in as I mentioned,

588
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: like gift giving and praise and special attention, which is

589
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: very hard for a child to compartmentalize. However, to try

590
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 2: to explain to you. And it's sad because I thought

591
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: this was normal. I mean, I remember being quite shocked

592
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: after the abuse when I started dating a lovely man

593
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: who I'm still friends with today. This was years after

594
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: the abuse, but I was confronted by having intercourse in

595
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: a bed because the majority of the rapes occurred on

596
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: the floor of my maths teacher's office, and I had

597
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 2: never experienced an orgasm. I didn't actually experience an orgasm

598
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: until I was in my mid twenties, which is, you know,

599
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: ten years. I mean, that's sooner than many people who

600
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 2: experienced child sexual abuse. I had nerve and tissue damage

601
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: to my vagina. It was very painful for me. But

602
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: again I thought that that's what I was like, Oh,

603
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: this is what this is is supposed to feel like.

604
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Sex is supposed to be very painful. And you know,

605
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: I did self harm during the abuse. I would go

606
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: home and I'd be, you know, massive tears. I'd be

607
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: so confused because again, you know this this teacher would

608
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 2: he would give me that special attention. But the sexual

609
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: element I was very confused by and uncomfortable with, but

610
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: unable to say that because I was at the end

611
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: of the day, I was afraid of him. You know,

612
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: he was six foot two. Before he was a teacher,

613
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: he was a soldier. He fought in the Civil War

614
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: in mozambiquees from South Africa, and he was known widely

615
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: known throughout the school as being quite provocative and racist

616
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: and homophobic and sexist. And it was such that, you know,

617
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: and this had happened over time, I think, you know,

618
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 2: I later found doubt that he you know, he very

619
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: difficult for the staff, for the administration. By the way

620
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: that we saw it as kids is that he was

621
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: you know that everyone just accepted that he was. He

622
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: was like that, and everyone laughed it off because over time,

623
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 2: insidiously he had groomed and desensitized. He desensitized the entire environment.

624
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: And that's what offenders do. They consciously and in a

625
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: very calculated way, groom the entire environment such that abuse

626
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: can happen in plain sight or at least it's normalized

627
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: or people look the other way, because such a pattern

628
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: ends up disarming people. Because you learn over a period

629
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: of time, through there being specific consequences for specific things,

630
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: you learn that the safest path or the easiest path

631
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: is the part of least resistance. So, for example, some

632
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: of the if you want to call it coercive workplace

633
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: coercive control or workplace grooming that was perpetrated by this offender.

634
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 2: Often he would make racist remarks, and this is documented

635
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: in the principles statement to police that was made after

636
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: rite Rudfield what had happened. It was documented that he

637
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: would make racist remarks or sexist remarks in front of

638
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: large audiences. Mind you, and often staff or even parents

639
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: or students would make a complaint and that complaint would

640
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: be presented to him, and his response would be to

641
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: flip the script, to deny what he had done, and

642
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: then to make himself a victim and turn up to

643
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: the school with his lawyer or threatened aggrievance. And that created,

644
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: over time an environment where everyone preferred not to resist

645
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: him because he would make it so difficult if they did,

646
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 2: And that meant that in the end, the things that

647
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: he was able to get away with were criminal and

648
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: affected men. Children.

649
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: I mean, Grace, thank you so much for continuing to

650
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: share your story. I'm sure it is never an easy

651
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: thing or place to revisit, but doing so has exposed

652
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: and helped educate so many people on I mean, I

653
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: have learned so much about grooming and the psychology. I

654
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: think that the long game of psychological weaponizing that can happen,

655
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: and why it can take victims so long to speak up.

656
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: You don't understand that from the outside. Often how people

657
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: don't immediately know that it's wrong or yeah, it's.

658
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: Meant to be invisible and it's meant to be untraceable.

659
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: There are material signs of grooming like for example, this

660
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: man groomed me online as well as in person, and

661
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: communicated with me organized abuse online in chats and things

662
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: like that. So there was material eviden that was relevant

663
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: to the case. And he'd also solicited self produced child

664
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: exploitation material from me, so I had upon his request,

665
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: I had, you know, and he asked me, had to

666
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: ask me a couple of times. So again there was

667
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: that coercive element. But he coerced from me a naked sketch.

668
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't actually of me. I didn't draw myself naked.

669
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: I actually, as an artist, had lots of books that

670
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: featured new drawings, and I copied one from a book

671
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 2: and I didn't even draw a head on this sketch.

672
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 2: I think it's somewhere. I think I've got it somewhere, sadly,

673
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: because the police gave me back some things that they

674
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: realized must have been mine. And I'll just say as

675
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: well for anyone listening, that as much as twelve percent

676
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 2: of child sexual abuse material is self produced by children

677
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: who've been coerced by offenders to take picture of them

678
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: of themselves or film themselves with seeing an upward trended

679
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: live streamed child sexual abuse material because now we have

680
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: these portals that give offenders instantaneous access to a whole

681
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: world of victims who might not understand that they're speaking

682
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: to an adult on the other side of the forum,

683
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: and it might be a computer game or something like that,

684
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: something that can also you said, you know, the long

685
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: game of child's actually abuse preparation. You know, through that

686
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: psychological grooming of not just the victims and the victims networks,

687
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: but the entire community on the scene. It can also

688
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: happen over a short period of time, especially just because

689
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: children are so susceptible and when we look at biologically

690
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: what childhood is, it is that process of integrating experiences

691
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: and lessons taught to us by our adult caregivers who

692
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: are supposed to model behavior and attitudes. So if you

693
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 2: are targeted by and deliberately isolated by an offender, even

694
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: in a short period of time, if they provide a

695
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: need that is otherwise not being provided, a missing need

696
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: to a child, that child is probably going to quickly

697
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: attach and defer to that adult caregiver. So again, it

698
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: can happen over a short period of time. But yes,

699
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: the grooming of the environment does tend to take longer.

700
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: It takes longer for that to really be an impenetrable

701
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: regime of control where all the conditions are set by

702
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: and dictated by the offender at the head of that regime.

703
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Grace, it is so confronting and devastating

704
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: to think about the level of manipulation of such an undeveloped,

705
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: naive young brain by an adult who is supposed to

706
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: be a caregiver, and unimaginable. How confusing as a child

707
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: that must have been, and the work you must have

708
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: done to be able to now tease that out. Looking

709
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: back at that time.

710
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 2: There's that cognitive dissonance, and again that's so hard to

711
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: tease apart. As a child, you just don't have the

712
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 2: neural architecture to understand something so complex. And as a child,

713
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 2: what's more important to you is that illusion of being

714
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: safe and being careful. That's how we survive is through

715
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: stories that we tell ourselves that we are loved, you know,

716
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: because what's the alternative accepting that we're being harmed by

717
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't care about us. That's very hard to

718
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: live with.

719
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: And I think one thing that's been extraordinary about your

720
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: journey is that you have been unraveling all of this.

721
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: I think you worded it in the book that all

722
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: of your firsts of having these realizations learning more about

723
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: what happened to you teasing out. Now that you are

724
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: older and do have the neural architecture to understand these

725
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: complex power dynamics and psychology, You've done it in public.

726
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: You've been experiencing all these revelations in public.

727
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a messy and unlinear process for sure. Well, because,

728
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: as I said so, if we think about the human

729
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: brain and its development, that development tends to continue until

730
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: about the age of twenty five, and one of the

731
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: last regions of the brain to finish development is the

732
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for impulse control and judgment.

733
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 2: When I was named Australian of the Year, when I

734
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: was thrust onto a very big platform, I had some

735
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: exposure prior to that, but on a small scale. The

736
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: large scale exposure that was overnight came when I was

737
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: all of twenty six years old. I just had my

738
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: twenty sixth birthday less than a month before. I was

739
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: also very unwell. I was in the middle of at

740
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: that point about two year relapse of anorexia that had

741
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: caused a mean area. I hadn't menstruated for two years.

742
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: I was about forty five kilos. I was running obsessively,

743
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: which at that time was like a shield for that trauma,

744
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: for that disordered eating, which was definitely directly linked to

745
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: the traumas plural I had experienced in childhood. And so

746
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: there was this bizarre, unprecedented and very unnatural phenomenon wherein

747
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: I was processing my childhood trauma finally to the extent

748
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: that an adult brain allowed, and I was doing that

749
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: while under intense multidirectional public and media scrutiny.

750
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: It actually defies belief.

751
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: No guidebook for that experience.

752
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 1: You're the only one who could write one if there were.

753
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: By nature, it's so unpredictable. I found myself on live

754
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: television being asked questions, often in good faith, sometimes not.

755
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: But I'd be asked a question and it would recontextualize

756
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: my own experience in a way that I was actually

757
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: able to see or break through a particular barrier and

758
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: then have to sort of formulate a response live on national.

759
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: It's almost laughable. I mean it's not funny, but it's

760
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: almost You have to just hysterical.

761
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: You absolutely have to laugh again. Because I had had

762
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 2: a full life before that, and a very eclectic life.

763
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: I'd experienced domestic violence as well. I was in an

764
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: abusive relationship, and you know, I'd been spat on, and

765
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: I had lived with someone who used to punch holes

766
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 2: in the walls of the apartment, but who was also

767
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: a very traumatized child. And I think that's a very

768
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: different it's a different issue that we need to treat differently.

769
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: But I guess the point that I'm trying to make

770
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: is that my life was very full, and it was

771
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: also very intense, and so it was just another layer

772
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: of intensity. I think, you know, I perversely, the turbulence

773
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: and unpredictability of my life prior to the Australian of

774
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 2: the era A would prepared me very well for the

775
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: turbulence and unpredictable that issued.

776
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: I'm quite speechless about how you have weathered the storm,

777
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: and this being a podcast at its heart about joy,

778
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: it is so.

779
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: Inspiring and.

780
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 1: Well unique for sure, but hopefully even reassuring for anyone

781
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: listening who is in the depths of their own traumatic chapter.

782
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: Your capacity to still feel joy and to make your

783
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 1: way back to lightness and humor and love. I mean

784
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: one thing that shines through so much on your socials

785
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: that I love your birthday dedications to the people around you,

786
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: Like I don't even know any of these people, but

787
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: I just read them and think what a legend. Like

788
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: I want to be their friend.

789
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: I should be a professional eulogist. Literally, you can.

790
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: Write mine now and I'll save it for later. But

791
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: I mean, your capacity to have experienced this in your lifetime,

792
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: in your like still quite short lifetime so far, and

793
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: still be able to find the good in the moments

794
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: in betwe is truly extraordinary.

795
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 2: That's my default. My default is to find joy and

796
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 2: where I can't find joys to make it. Oh.

797
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: I love that so much. But it is so unique

798
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: in such a short time for you to have reached

799
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: that place. And one of the statistics that shocked me

800
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: was the time it usually takes to report sexual offenses.

801
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: I can't remember if the statistic was child sexual offenses

802
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: or or.

803
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 2: Not, but it was, Yeah, it was twenty three point

804
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: nine years until.

805
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: Twenty three point nine.

806
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: But a lot of that is to do with the

807
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: biological lag that I mentioned before, as well as this

808
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: social shame and the internal shame, because shame is the

809
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 2: is the key weapon that an offender uses to underpin

810
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 2: their grooming. It's guilt, its stigma. Those are the main

811
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: drivers as well as that delayed realization of actually what

812
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: happened was not not that I think there's anything as

813
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 2: such normal, but oh yeah, the realization of, oh that

814
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: was harmful. That was a harmful thing that I experienced

815
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: that has affected my brain, my ability to function.

816
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: And you've mentioned before the especially in the case of children,

817
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: because you are so sexually underdeveloped, when it happens that

818
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: the conflation of pleasure and consent at a time where

819
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: your body is betraying you, but the offenders are weaponizing

820
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: that body against you, is that a great source of

821
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: shame when you do first start talking publicly.

822
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a really really crucial part of

823
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: the dialogue, and it's a nuance that is poorly understood

824
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: and a particular piece that is used against children. And

825
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: I think this is a great opportunity to sort of

826
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: break this down and there's a lot of research out there.

827
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 2: I'll give the chair of the Grace Taine Foundation a plug.

828
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: His name is Professor Mike Salter. He works at the

829
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: University of New South Wales. He's a criminologist and he

830
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: specializes in child sexual abuse, child exploitation, material and other

831
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 2: forms of violence. The conflation of arousal and consent is

832
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: something that is very much propped up by the child

833
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: sex offender base. It is important to make the distinction

834
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: between giving your full consent, your enthusiastic consent to something,

835
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: and being sexually aroused, which can happen by force. If

836
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: you touch genitalia. It's the most sensitive part of the body,

837
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 2: your oroginous zones, your genitalia, and so they can easily

838
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 2: be stimulated in a manufactured way. As an adult, you

839
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: can discern between, oh, that's just those body parts being activated,

840
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: but I don't actually want that, whereas a child will

841
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: feel those feelings that are very new to them and

842
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 2: they feel good. Do you feel excitement, You feel you know, adrenaline,

843
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 2: and your thought is, oh, well, this is this is

844
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 2: a good a good thing, and it gets doubly shameful

845
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: if you are brought to orgasm. I am very grateful

846
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 2: that I was Actually I was never brought to orgasm,

847
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of that is because it

848
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: was actually so painful. The penetration. There was a size difference.

849
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: I won't need to elaborate on that. I had vaginiusiness,

850
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: which is where the vagina just essentially is like shut

851
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: up shop. It's like, no, no customers today, thank you

852
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 2: very much. I don't want anybody here. Like yeah, So

853
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: I had I had that experience. I was confused by

854
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: the attention, you know, and I'm not ashamed to admit

855
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: that that that. You know, this was somebody who who

856
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: saw that there was a gap there in undivided attention

857
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 2: and consistency because you know, from the age of two,

858
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: my parents were separated. They both remarried, you know, they

859
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 2: both loved me, but there was no consistency in my life. Again,

860
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: I was also different. I survived at the ald Girls

861
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: High School because I had a sense of humor and

862
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: I was definitely considered to be a class clown. And

863
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: I did have some great, solid friendships back then. Again

864
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: my friend Jillian, who forced me to use a handwrap,

865
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 2: good old Jillian because they were saying the performing arts school,

866
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,479
Speaker 2: and my friend my friend Gabby and Emily and later

867
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: my friend Georgie who was in grade above me. We've

868
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: become almost inseparable. I had some good friendships, but I'm

869
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 2: very grateful for But there were gaps. There were gaps,

870
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: and those were exploitant and widened by my math teacher.

871
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: You know, he deliberately undermined those relationships. He would degrade

872
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: my mother. He would say things because my mother felt

873
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 2: pregnant when I was in grade nine and gave birth

874
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: to my baby brother right when the abuse started, and

875
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 2: so there was that as well. Is that, you know,

876
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: my stepped dad was working a very stressful job. That

877
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 2: meant that he was just often distracted until midnight and

878
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 2: a lot of nights, and my mother was at forty

879
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: five years old, caring for an infant. And at that

880
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: point is why I stopped living with my father. So

881
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 2: I was living in the one for the first time

882
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: in my life. I was living in the one household.

883
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: But there was so much going on that this is

884
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: what offenders do. They're they're very deliberate in their choices. So,

885
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: you know, whilst there are offenders who are opportunities seek

886
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: a lot of offenders will It's not just opportunism, it's

887
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 2: crafting an environment to offend.

888
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for how open you are in explaining

889
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: the complexity and nuance in this area because for so

890
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: many it is such an unfamiliar territory. And yet you know,

891
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: many of us are parents or friends and want to

892
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: look out for the signs of grooming. And I think

893
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: about young impression Grace with her life ahead of her,

894
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: and just what to cry thinking of? You know, what

895
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: ended up derailing so much of your youth and as

896
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: we've mentioned, thrust you onto a pathway that you never chose.

897
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: And I mean you even had to leave the country

898
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: and finish school in the States. And I think for

899
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people who experience such a dramatic life

900
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 1: altering trauma, there is some sense of a parallel life

901
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 1: and lamenting the person you would have become or could

902
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: have become. Do you ever think about who you might

903
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: have been?

904
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 2: No, he doesn't deserve that credit. You know. I still

905
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: am me. Yeah, I'm still may. I have a few

906
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: dings and dense he scribbles. Literally, I've got some yanky tattoos,

907
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: which yanky.

908
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: I love that, you know.

909
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: I've got big scars. I've got myself and there was

910
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: another child present during the abuse that I experienced, and

911
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 2: we both have matching scars on our thigh that says,

912
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: fuck that we carved with a kitchen knife. Again, you

913
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 2: gotta laugh. I did have laser removal to reduce the scarring.

914
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: It's still visible, but I do remember the doctor looking

915
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 2: at it and just saying, well, at least just spelt

916
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: it right, ye, silver lining. I've got scarring keyloid scarring

917
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: that has, as I said, has been reduced with my

918
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,919
Speaker 2: arms and legs. And I have tattoos that I got,

919
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 2: I would say impulsively my late teens and early twenties

920
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: that I then tried to remove through more laser. And

921
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 2: I got to a point of self acceptance realizing that

922
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, you know, as long as as long

923
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: as the machine is healthy inside and functioning optimally. I

924
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 2: think that's the most important thing. And also you realize,

925
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: and a lot of this just comes with age, think,

926
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 2: but you realize that those who are judging you for

927
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: those superficial exterior factors are not worth keeping in your life.

928
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 2: You know what matters most of all of the sort

929
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: of the spiritual connections that you make. I think the

930
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 2: memories that you that you make with those spiritual connections

931
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: that you forged. Life never pans out the way you

932
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: imagine it for better or for worse, you know, expectations

933
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: have never met exactly and being okay with that, being

934
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: okay with not knowing some things that are inherently unanswerable.

935
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: And I certainly couldn't answer where my life could have

936
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 2: or should have would have gone had certain things not happened.

937
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: And I think when you start to play that game

938
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: as well, it's very hard to draw distinct boundaries. You know,

939
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: if you remove one part or you alter one part

940
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: of a trajectory, where does that end? Because that ultimately

941
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 2: will feed into or lead into another event that probably

942
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 2: wouldn't have taken like I wouldn't have been I don't

943
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 2: think I would have been named Australian of the Year

944
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: for the work that I continue to do had the

945
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: abuse not happened. And again that's not a credit to

946
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 2: that man who is responsible for the abuse. I and

947
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 2: the people around me who supported me deserve credit for

948
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: how we all as a team responded to what happened

949
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: to us, you know, because it had a huge effect

950
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 2: on my family as well as well as the institutions.

951
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: And that's massives. I don't like to entertain that. I

952
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: like to think about, well, what things do I have

953
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: control over how can I manage what has happened? And

954
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 2: what can I do? How can I move forward? What's next?

955
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: Again, the strength of your mindset just blows me away

956
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: in the face of such unimaginable adversity. And you have

957
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: moved forward so powerfully with everything that came next with

958
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: the let Her Speak campaign in your role as Australian

959
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: of the Year, that being the whirlwind that it was,

960
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: and yet you rose to the challenge so beautifully. And

961
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: now of course with the Grace Tame Foundation, continuing to

962
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: devote yourself passionately to cultural and structural change to eradicate

963
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: sexual abuse of children. And we talk a lot on

964
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: the show about people's relationship to the concepts of success

965
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: versus fulfillment versus joy in their life path. And again

966
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: that's an area where yours is so unique. So how

967
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: do you feel about the work that you do now

968
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 1: with the Grace Tame Foundation. How do you measure your success?

969
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: And that it does sort of take such a sacrifice

970
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: in sharing your own story and revisiting a painful time

971
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: in your life to generate that change.

972
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: Success is largely a feeling. There are men you know

973
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: and we do live in a capitalist world where we're

974
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 2: obsessed with like, well, you know, is there a dollar

975
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: figure that this success translates into her? Is there? Or

976
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: is there an other kind of like measurement where we

977
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 2: can prove with statistics that this is a successful thing.

978
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: There's also a type of success that is incredibly powerful,

979
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 2: and that is when you are able to experience a

980
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 2: connection with a human being who has been impacted by

981
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: a positive change and they actually are able to give

982
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 2: a story to that of how they've evolved from a

983
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 2: place of pain to a place of ongoing healing or

984
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 2: pain management. And before I had a big public platform

985
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 2: and was working with Nina Fanell, who created and continues

986
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 2: to run the hashtag let her Speak and let Us

987
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: Speak campaigns. She's an investigative journalist. You know. When I

988
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: was working with her back in twenty seventeen, in the

989
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: early days, I was connected with an odd advocate in

990
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: Tasmania by the name of Steve Fisher, who just got

991
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: married in December and I was the best man at

992
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 2: his wedding. He's a survivor of child sexual abuse. He

993
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: was abused by a priest when he was a child,

994
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 2: and in two thousand and one he became the first

995
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 2: Tasmanian survivor of child sexual abuse to speak publicly under

996
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: his own name about his experiences because he was given

997
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 2: he was awarded a court order that meant he got

998
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: an exemption to the legislation that previously existed in Tasmania

999
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 2: to prevent or to make it illegal for survivors of

1000
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse to self identify and tell their experiences

1001
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: on their terms. So I was connected with Steve Fisher,

1002
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 2: and the impact that Steve had on me was profound

1003
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: and not able to be quantified. Although we were different

1004
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 2: in age and had different individual experiences of child sexual abuse,

1005
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: there were some common patterns and I felt so seen

1006
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: and so understood, and the valley of that propelled me forward.

1007
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: And then I have been privileged enough to have direct

1008
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: experiences with people who have been impacted by the work

1009
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: that we have done since then, and it becomes a

1010
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 2: domino effect of positive change making that connects with people

1011
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 2: at that individual level, that of course then becomes a

1012
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 2: societal change. Like I said, I'm very lucky that people

1013
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: are connecting with the work that we're doing and that

1014
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: they share that with me. The people that come up

1015
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: to me in person and are often in tears. It's

1016
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: not about me, like we're both We're actually both equal

1017
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 2: in that situation because we have an understanding of a

1018
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 2: trauma that previously isolated us and previously we internalized, and

1019
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 2: now we're actually able to get it out of our

1020
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 2: system and it has less of a negative effect on us,

1021
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: it has less of a defining, limiting effect on us

1022
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: when we're able to xpiate that trauma, get that out

1023
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 2: and and start working on ways to deal with it properly.

1024
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think, I think that's a phenomenally beautiful thing.

1025
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 2: And also the more we do that, the more we

1026
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: bring things like child sexual abuse and the grooming that

1027
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: belies it out into the open and we start to

1028
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: understand it and we start to create preventions, and interventions

1029
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 2: will reduce the prevalence of it and there'll be less

1030
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 2: of a need for mass public disclosure.

1031
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: Well, your continued openness and including in this episode has

1032
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: taught me and I hope some of our listeners so

1033
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: much about navigating the nuances and complexity of child sexual

1034
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: abuse and the reality is it does happen, and of

1035
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: course no one expects it will happen to them or

1036
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,919
Speaker 1: around them, but I mean even the case of being

1037
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: on the other end of a disclosure. Most people aren't

1038
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: ready for that or know, you know, what to do.

1039
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: So perhaps in that area, if anyone does end up

1040
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: the situation, do you have any advice on how to

1041
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: be you know, a safe place if it does arise.

1042
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 2: You don't necessarily have to know the exact right thing

1043
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 2: to say to someone if they disclose to you. I

1044
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 2: think there are key messages to try to communicate as

1045
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 2: best you can. You know, like, you know, it's not

1046
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 2: your fault is number one, it's not your fault what

1047
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 2: happened to you. But also you know, like I support

1048
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 2: you or I'll support you to the best of my ability,

1049
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 2: and I believe you, you know, especially if it's a

1050
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: child disclosing child sexual abuse. For reasons we've covered. You know,

1051
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 2: children don't have the they don't have the neural capacity

1052
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: to construct complex lies. So child's disclosing something as advanced

1053
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 2: as child sexual abuse, give them an audience and give

1054
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 2: them your compassion. But yeah, I know, when it comes

1055
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 2: to communicating that information to audiences about these sorts of things,

1056
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 2: there's often some sort of penny drop moments and breakthroughs

1057
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 2: that that happened because there's a permission giving someone else

1058
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 2: tosses aside their shame. What that does is allow other

1059
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 2: people to feel emboldened to toss aside their shame as well,

1060
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: whatever that shame looks like, and whatever the source of

1061
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: that shame may be.

1062
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: Well, you continue to embolden perhaps an entire nation to

1063
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: confront and start to heal from their shame by doing

1064
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: the work that you do.

1065
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 2: And I'm one star in a constellation.

1066
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: And the humility, but the work you are doing is

1067
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: truly extraordinary. You are I mean, I was all struck

1068
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: before we began, and I continue to be of everything

1069
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 1: that you do and the lightness that you still bring

1070
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,919
Speaker 1: to life in light of everything that has come your way.

1071
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: So I'm so grateful to have had any of your

1072
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: time amidst all of the different things that are competing

1073
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: for your time and attention. But I would love to

1074
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: just finish on some of those lighter points as much

1075
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: as I could talk to you for hours and hours

1076
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: and hours in amongst all of the heavy and consuming

1077
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: work that you do that does have such a personal

1078
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: element to it. How do you find the lightness and

1079
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: enjoy do you? Binge watch TV I know you love

1080
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: John lecare novel, which I also love. We have an

1081
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: intelligence officer coming onto the show next week, Spices Babe,

1082
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: such a spy that their voice has to be obscured,

1083
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: Like I am going to Asia. I am so excited.

1084
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: If I disappear, you'll know where I went. What do

1085
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: you enjoy? You know, do you binge TV?

1086
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 2: Like?

1087
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 1: How do you enjoy your downtime? If you actually allow

1088
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: yourself any Very.

1089
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 2: Rarely do I binge watch TV. I voraciously consume books.

1090
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: I love reading, and I love reading nonfiction because I

1091
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 2: like there to be a learning or multiple learning, several

1092
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 2: learnings from a text. And I love running, running with people,

1093
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: running by myself, running on the roads, running on trails.

1094
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 2: That's a core part of who I am as a person.

1095
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's a great metaphor for life. You know,

1096
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, it's sort of dichotomous elements where it's you know,

1097
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 2: it's a beautiful thing, but it can also get really

1098
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 2: ugly at times and be really difficult. But it's a

1099
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,959
Speaker 2: proven treatment for complex post traumatic stress disorder and other things.

1100
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 2: You know, it helps you regulate your emotions and it

1101
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 2: increases the functionality of all of your energy systems and

1102
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 2: spending time with loved ones. You know, when I'm in

1103
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 2: Tasmania and not traveling as I often do, I see

1104
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 2: my best friend Dom and his family. We have a

1105
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 2: dinner either on a Friday or Saturday night, and we

1106
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 2: just get together and laugh and cook delicious food.

1107
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, oh that's beautiful. And your relationship with Dom

1108
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: sounds so special. I know at this point after it

1109
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: a million times, but your capacity to find joy in

1110
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 1: life and to love those around you so deeply despite

1111
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: the cruelty that you've seen of humanity is extraordinary, and

1112
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: the work you do equally extraordinary. Knowing how busy you are,

1113
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm aware I've taken up so much of your time

1114
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: away from that work. So I will end this there,

1115
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: but just so very grateful for your time and openness

1116
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 1: today and in awe still of everything you do. So

1117
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: thank you so much.

1118
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for saying that it's all in

1119
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: the eye of the beholder. But I really appreciate the

1120
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 2: time to speak about some of these topics that need

1121
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 2: to be shared far and wide. And yeah, also a

1122
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 2: fan of yours, So keep up the good work and

1123
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 2: the joy. Oh that is very kind of you.

1124
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: We will include links to the foundation, to your page,

1125
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: to all the resources, and also of course to Lifeline,

1126
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: which I know you've actually spoken at length about what

1127
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 1: a wonderful resource Lifeline is, so we will include links.

1128
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 2: It's great, it's the services exist for a reason.

1129
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 1: Absolutely so thank you so much, Grace.

1130
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: No worries at all. It was great to say see

1131
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:01,799
Speaker 2: you again, albeit on the computer.

1132
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 1: Oh again. I have no words but to express my

1133
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:10,520
Speaker 1: gratitude for and or over this incredible woman, her openness

1134
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: and her strength. If there is discomfort in confronting the

1135
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 1: topic of child sexual abuse as an objective observer, it's

1136
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: just unimaginable for her to have been a victim, a

1137
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 1: survivor and then continue to revisit that time of your

1138
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: life so that it may be better understood and prevented

1139
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: for others. If you were as moved as I am

1140
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: by Grace and her work, please do share the episode

1141
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: tagging at Tamepunk to thank her for her vulnerability and time.

1142
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: Of course, I'll include links to the Grace Tame Foundation,

1143
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: Lifeline and other resources for support in the show notes.

1144
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,959
Speaker 1: And if you have found anything in this episode distressing

1145
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: in any way, never hesitate to reach out for help.

1146
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: It is a sign of strength and as Grace says,

1147
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:58,759
Speaker 1: the resources are there for a reason. In the meantime,

1148
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: I hope you're all looking after yourselves and each other,

1149
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: and we will be back soon with the next installment

1150
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 1: of Yay