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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.

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Speaker 2: On Wednesday, the twenty first of August, I'm Holly Wainwright,

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Speaker 2: I'm Mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, Taylor Swift endorses Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: At least that's what he says. Also, the mother who

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Speaker 2: refused to put a trigger warning on her child's life,

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Speaker 2: do they do more harm than good? And the pop

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Speaker 2: star of the moment does not want to take a

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Speaker 2: selfie with you or even.

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Speaker 1: Talk to you at all. Is that Aloud?

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Speaker 2: But first mea Friedman?

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Speaker 1: Big news out louders in case you missed it. After

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Speaker 1: months of pat walks and first trap Instagram posts and speculation,

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 2: Like your tone. No, they don't like your tone.

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Speaker 3: There is someone who is in the midst of she

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Speaker 3: is grieving and I would like some respect.

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Speaker 1: All the rumors have been confirmed. As we went into

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Speaker 1: our planning meeting this morning, news broke that Jlo and

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Speaker 1: Ben Affleck are getting divorced now, Oh, we could just.

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Speaker 3: Have a moment's silence. It's come as a shock.

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Speaker 1: According to Variety, in People and everywhere, Jlo has officially

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Speaker 1: filed for divorce from Ben. The papers have been filed.

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Speaker 1: They've been married for two years. Interestingly, she filed on

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Speaker 1: their two year anniversary, which is the most passive, aggressive,

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Speaker 1: fabulous thing I've ever heard.

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Speaker 3: Yea, and because she filed, right, she filed, filed, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's got to be quite symbolic that she waited.

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Speaker 3: It feels like she waited to go. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: do it on exactly the two years since.

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Speaker 1: Our official She is pissed off.

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Speaker 3: She's pissed off.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've filled out divorce paperwork, but I've never actually

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Speaker 1: filed it. But there is significance in the person that

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Speaker 1: files it. I'm just not sure what that significance is.

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Speaker 1: There is definitely a subtext. I'm sure out louders could

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Speaker 1: tell us. Certainly, when you're a famous person, someone has

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Speaker 1: to do it. Though, who files his control the narrative essentially.

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Speaker 3: Well, the person who files, I feel like wants to

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Speaker 3: divorce more. That's a vibeager.

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Speaker 1: We're going to put a link in the show notes

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Speaker 1: to a great story on Maya that unpacks all the

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Speaker 1: hidden details in this divorce filing. The one that I

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Speaker 1: was most drawn to is that she lists the date

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Speaker 1: of separation as April twenty sixth, twenty twenty four, and

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Speaker 1: that's significant. I went back and did some sleuthing CSI

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Speaker 1: j Loo divorce, and I thought, is that around the

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Speaker 1: time that her movie came out? But no, the movie

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Speaker 1: came out on February seventeen, So I feel like though

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Speaker 1: it could have gone south after that. I feel like

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Speaker 1: maybe something happened after that. In terms of it feels.

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Speaker 3: So bad for her, I feel bad for her too.

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Speaker 3: And in terms of the timeline, it appears that they

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Speaker 3: separated about two weeks before the met Gala. Remember she

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Speaker 3: turned up on her own to the Magdala and there

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Speaker 3: was speculation. That's when the speculation she looks like really started.

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Speaker 1: But she looked very great. She never doesn't look great, true,

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Speaker 1: but she did look sad. And you might have read

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Speaker 1: reports that there was no prenup. The documents that she

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Speaker 1: filed did not actually say whether there was or not,

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Speaker 1: And I don't think you're legally required to say that

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Speaker 1: in the documents whether there was a prenup. Not being

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Speaker 1: a divorce lawyer, I am unsure. But anyway, this is

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Speaker 1: not a surprise at all. In fact, there's going to

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Speaker 1: be so much to talk about. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: revisiting this on Friday's episode and talking about breakups more generally.

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Speaker 2: I feel terrible for her because I watched We all

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Speaker 2: had to because me and made us watch This is

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Speaker 2: Me Now.

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Speaker 1: I was rooting for them.

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Speaker 3: Did you guys watch The Greatest Love Story?

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Speaker 1: Oh? That one?

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Speaker 2: Sorry, that's what I watched.

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Speaker 3: I think we watched both.

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Speaker 1: I made you watch all of it.

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Speaker 2: But I was like, you put all that out there

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Speaker 2: and you're like, we're finally back together and it's all wonderful.

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Speaker 3: It's like, no, but that's why it's so relatable, Holly,

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Speaker 3: as we've all done that.

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Speaker 1: She should have listened to Jane Fonder who said, maybe

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Speaker 1: have the relationship, don't make art about it.

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Speaker 2: Though I am much more on the team of the

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Speaker 2: meme I've seen. That's like when you wait twenty years

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Speaker 2: for your extra change and he's still the same ass

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Speaker 2: whole he always was.

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Speaker 1: Love it well before Friday. There will no doubt be

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Speaker 1: narratives spun from both camps. We'll be revisiting this on

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Speaker 1: the show Friday, and.

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Speaker 3: If you can't wait till then, last week, Claire and

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Speaker 3: I put together a little treat for anyone who is like,

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Speaker 3: hang on, I need to know the TikTok. I need

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Speaker 3: to know the background. We did an episode on the

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Speaker 3: cancelation of benefit that was last week's episode, and we

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Speaker 3: said we think in the next week we're probably going

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Speaker 3: to find out that a divorce is looming.

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Speaker 1: I loved so much listening to that.

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Speaker 3: So there's a leak.

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Speaker 1: It's not like what you mean about either of them.

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Speaker 1: That's not the spirit of cancel.

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Speaker 3: We're rooting for them, but unfortunately it has fallen through.

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Speaker 1: And I want to.

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Speaker 4: Kick us off by celebrating our incredible President.

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden.

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Speaker 4: Joe, thank you for your historic leadership, for your lifetime

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Speaker 4: of service to our nation, and for all you will

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Speaker 4: continue to do. We are forever grateful to you.

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Speaker 2: Here's your quick dip into what's happening in American politics

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Speaker 2: this week, which includes Taylor Swift and my very predictable tears.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to alarm anyone, but Taylor Swift is

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Speaker 2: asking you to vote for Donald Trump and the Swifties

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Speaker 2: am mobilizing for him. There is, at least that's what

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Speaker 2: he has apparently chosen to believe, posting an AI generated

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Speaker 2: image of crowds of young women wearing Swifties for Trump

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Speaker 2: T shirts and a meme of Swift dressed as Uncle

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Speaker 2: Sam Finger, extended in the iconic point with the words

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift wants you to vote for Donald Trump. I accept,

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Speaker 2: he wrote when he posted it on Twitter. I think

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Speaker 2: he posted on truth Social he did, but it was

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Speaker 2: also posted on Twitter. But now it's been taken down

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Speaker 2: because fake news, as Mia says, was.

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Speaker 3: It taken down by his friend Elon.

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Speaker 2: Possibly or I think probably by his own camp because

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Speaker 2: bless those posts obviously were fake, although the Swifties for

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Speaker 2: Trump images did indeed have an authentic origin. There's a

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Speaker 2: nineteen year old woman called Jenna Pervovchuk who made and

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Speaker 2: wore her Swifties for Trump T shirt to a Trump

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Speaker 2: rally in June, and she managed to get a picture

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Speaker 2: with Trump and he told her he really liked her shirt.

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Speaker 2: She's released a statement and said, because everyone's saying there

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Speaker 2: are no Swifties for Trump when you're talking about and

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Speaker 2: she's like I think you'll find, and she said I

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Speaker 2: made a more the Swifties for Trump shirt and June

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Speaker 2: to the Trump rally in Racine because I'm a Swifty

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Speaker 2: who supports him. Swifties are a more diverse group than

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Speaker 2: people think. I know of so many Swifties who have

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Speaker 2: conservative values and many many more who reached out to

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Speaker 2: express their support and appreciation for Swifties for Trump. We

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Speaker 2: are a young demographic of people who are looking at

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Speaker 2: home prices, the cost of living, etc.

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: Yes you are real, Jenna. It's true you are real.

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Speaker 2: But there is no official Swifties for Trump movement, and

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Speaker 2: that image was fake. It's not surprising that there isn't one,

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Speaker 2: given that she did endorse Biden in the last election.

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Speaker 2: There is, yes, a swift Is for Kamala group. It's

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Speaker 2: not official, but it has more than sixty four thousand

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Speaker 2: members on Twitter and it says its aim is to

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Speaker 2: mobilize swift fans to get Democrats elected. Maya, is Trump

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Speaker 2: trying to bait swift with his I accept post.

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Speaker 3: Yes he is.

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Speaker 1: But what he's also trying to do is that that's

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Speaker 1: the irony about the term fake news. It was originally

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Speaker 1: coined to describe what Trump did, and then now he

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Speaker 1: of course weaponizes it against anything that he doesn't like

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Speaker 1: or doesn't agree with. What do they say about how

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Speaker 1: a lie will have circled the globe while the facts

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Speaker 1: are still tying up their shoelacers. I think that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people will just see headlines Taylor Swift endorses Trump,

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Speaker 1: Trump shares photo of Taylor Swift, or they'll see the

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Speaker 1: image and they're not going to go and say, oh really,

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Speaker 1: They'll just think that that's true, right, the irony I mean,

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Speaker 1: which puts her in the position of having to come

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Speaker 1: out and denying it. And the reason that it was

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Speaker 1: taken down. Wouldn't it been Elon He doesn't get he's

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Speaker 1: pro Trump. Our friend Tree Payne, who is the extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: named publicist extraordinaire of Taylor Swift and has been for

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Speaker 1: a long time, she would have made immediate calls to say,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, that's defamatory if you would look at

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Speaker 1: I mean, not that there's defamation laws in America in

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Speaker 1: that same way, but she would have caused some merry. Hell,

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Speaker 1: but don't you think it's.

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Speaker 2: Weird that he's poking the bear because everybody assumes that

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Speaker 2: Taylor obviously is going to come out for Kamala. It

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Speaker 2: feels like poking the bear, and it feels like when

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Speaker 2: she inevitably does, maybe he's got something prepped.

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Speaker 1: The timing also isn't coincidental because it's the Democratic Convention

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Speaker 1: this week. You might have seen some of the footage

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Speaker 1: or the headlines. Hillary Clinton spoke, this is like the

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Speaker 1: launch of their campaign essentially, where she officially takes the nomination.

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Speaker 1: And so he hates nothing more than not having attention,

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Speaker 1: and so this is what guaranteed that he's got attention. Again.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's baiting, because I don't think

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Speaker 3: he thought of that far ahead. I reckon it's just

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Speaker 3: a reshap because he got a little bit excited on

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Speaker 3: his computer. But what he shared is illegal in Tennessee,

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Speaker 3: which is where Taylor Swift is from. You can't share.

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Speaker 3: Tennessee has a lot of very famous it's got Dolly Partner,

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Speaker 3: it's got Taylor Swift, and they've passed a law saying

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Speaker 3: you can't share AI generated images that suggest a celebrity

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Speaker 3: endorsees something they don't. So that's the first thing. But

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Speaker 3: what Trump is doing here is twofold. The first is

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Speaker 3: that he is sharing a lot of AI generated images.

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Speaker 3: Another one was the one of Harris standing at the

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Speaker 3: Democratic Convention with the socialist symbol in the background. It's

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Speaker 3: really ominous looking, it's really scary. It looks like she

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Speaker 3: is like an image from history where she's galvanizing you know,

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Speaker 3: socialist people and there's going to be some kind of war. Like,

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Speaker 3: it's really scary. He shared that, and then at the

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Speaker 3: same time, what he does is he suggests that image

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Speaker 3: is shared by Harris, for example, at a speaking event

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Speaker 3: she's doing. He says, they're AI generated, So there's something but.

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Speaker 1: She generated the crowds exactly.

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Speaker 3: So there's something called the liar's dividend, which is what

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Speaker 3: disinformation research is. It's a term they've coined, and it

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Speaker 3: means that an increase in manipulated content leads to general

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Speaker 3: skepticism of all media. So what he's doing, which is

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Speaker 3: what he did in the last election, is if you

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Speaker 3: you're so enough seeds, you throw enough chaos, all used

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Speaker 3: to exactly is create, you've undermined everyone. So even when

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Speaker 3: they shared true images, he's like, what's even true anymore?

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Speaker 3: Here's Taylor Swift endorsing.

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Speaker 2: Me and as you say, mea, the images have already

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Speaker 2: gone all the way around the world by the time

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Speaker 2: he's like, oh, got to take it down. Turns out

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Speaker 2: it was fake.

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Speaker 1: So earlier this year, the BBC discovered that there were

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Speaker 1: dozens of deep fakes circulating images portraying black people supporting Trump.

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Speaker 1: Even though Taylor hasn't come out. We spoke about on

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Speaker 1: the show last week that image where it looked like

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris was in the background of her concert, she

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Speaker 1: actually wasn't. Taylor Swift hasn't come out yet and spoken

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Speaker 1: about this election or expressed her support.

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Speaker 3: Do you think she will?

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Speaker 2: Well, definitely it will.

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Speaker 1: In the twenty twenty election, she did support the Democratic Party,

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Speaker 1: and she criticized Trump during the nationwide protests over the

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Speaker 1: police murder of George Floyd. She posted back then on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: after stoking the fires of white supremacy and racism your

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Speaker 1: entire presidency, you have the nerve to feign moral superiority

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Speaker 1: before threatening violence. We will vote you out in November.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised to discover that I had missed it

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Speaker 1: at the time, because, as we spoke on the show

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Speaker 1: last week, all she needs to do is just tell

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Speaker 1: people to vote, because even though there's the occasional swifty

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Speaker 1: for Trump, because of course she's got When you've got

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of fans, they're going to be along

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Speaker 1: the political spectrum. But generally young people more likely to

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Speaker 1: vote for Democrats. And so if she says vote, but

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Speaker 1: I think she will come out. There's rumors that she

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Speaker 1: and Beyonce are going to perform at the Democratic Convention.

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Speaker 2: Moving on to my tears. As Mia mentioned, it's the

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Speaker 2: Harris campaigns big week, right because it's the Democratic Convention.

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Speaker 2: It's being held in Chicago, and in America, these conventions

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Speaker 2: are massive. They're covered on national TV. They have all

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Speaker 2: the showbiz production values of major awards shows, and they

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Speaker 2: go on for days. It's like program of who gets

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Speaker 2: to talk on day one and who gets to talk

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Speaker 2: on day two.

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Speaker 1: You know, it goes on and on.

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Speaker 2: You'll hear roaring crowds. Celebrities are posting from their podcasts

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Speaker 2: are being recorded there. It's like Glastonbury for political nerds.

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Speaker 2: But on day one the old Guard people spoke. Biden,

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Speaker 2: the guy who is still the President of America, got

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Speaker 2: up and said some lovely stuff, so did me. As

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Speaker 2: nemesis Jill Biden, she got up and said some lovely stuff.

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Speaker 2: AOC was there. She was being thrillingly lefty for the

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Speaker 2: lefties among us. She threw us a bit of red meat.

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Speaker 2: And then Hillary Clinton, who no doubt thought it was

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Speaker 2: her destiny to be the first female president, of course,

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Speaker 2: got up and spoke. And I did some serious sobbing

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Speaker 2: about this into the videos on my phone, going to

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Speaker 2: play it to you now, and then I'm going to

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Speaker 2: ask you if you feel the same way, because I

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Speaker 2: don't know what's wrong with me. Is what Hillary said

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Speaker 2: that completely got me.

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Speaker 1: I wish my mother and Kamala's mother could see us.

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Speaker 1: They would say keep going, Sureleye and Jerry would say,

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Speaker 1: keep going. I want I want my grandchildren and their

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Speaker 1: grandchildren to know I was here at this moment, that

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Speaker 1: we were here, and that we were with Kamala Harris

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Speaker 1: every step of the way. This is our time, America.

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Speaker 4: This is when we stand up, This is when we breakthrough.

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Speaker 1: The future is hair.

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Speaker 4: It is at our grasp.

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Speaker 2: Lads, Jesse, are you moved by that or is it

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Speaker 2: just pressing all my gen x feminist buttons.

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Speaker 3: I am moved I was going to suggest it was

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Speaker 3: your menopause, but I am very moved. And the headline

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Speaker 3: from this convention that I keep seeing is that it

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Speaker 3: is incredibly unified. So conventions have a lot of different speakers,

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Speaker 3: and obviously there are more leftist factions and more centrist factions.

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Speaker 3: And what people have noted is that this party has

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Speaker 3: behind the scenes clearly come together and been like, we

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Speaker 3: need a really united message, and that even with Clinton,

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Speaker 3: like or AOC, there are people here that on paper

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Speaker 3: are very very different. But I do think that we're

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Speaker 3: feeling the real momentum of the campaign, and obviously having

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Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton there I think is very significant. Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: didn't speak till eleven thirty PM, and that stressed me out.

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Speaker 3: I thought about you at the logis may I imagine

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Speaker 3: that's like winning a Gold LOGI. Joe Biden won the

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Speaker 3: Gold LOGI and had to get up.

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Speaker 1: I think he had a nap. I think they woke

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Speaker 1: him up. I think he'd been asleep since seven. I

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Speaker 1: think they gave him a little gentle shake at about ten.

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Speaker 2: Leave the mar He did what you wanted him to do.

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Speaker 3: She did, really did.

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Speaker 5: I've got five months left in my presidency. I've got

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Speaker 5: a lot to do. I intend to get it done.

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Speaker 5: I spent the hour in my lifetime the server as

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Speaker 5: your president. I love the job, but I love my

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Speaker 5: country more.

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Speaker 2: It was you moved by the Hilary and Kamala, I

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Speaker 2: wish our mothers were here. That just got me because

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Speaker 2: there's all this cynicism about you know, is this about women?

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Speaker 2: Isn't it about women? Haven't we moved past that? But

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Speaker 2: it is remarkable when you stand back and think about

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Speaker 2: Hillary's mother and Kamala's mother, and about our mothers and

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Speaker 2: the fact that hasn't yet been an American female president.

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Speaker 2: It's like it makes me holly.

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Speaker 1: A very wise woman once told me, it's the hope

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Speaker 1: that kills you. It is. So I wasn't moved. I

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Speaker 1: was alert, and I was alert in a fearful way

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Speaker 1: because that rhetoric around the history making idea of the

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Speaker 1: first female president didn't go well last time. It really

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Speaker 1: didn't go well. And I've been reading a lot about

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Speaker 1: the difference. And I'm sure we'll talk about this in

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Speaker 1: weeks and months to come, but the difference between the

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Speaker 1: way Hillary ran in twenty sixteen and two thousand and

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Speaker 1: eight and the way Kamala is running and gender is

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Speaker 1: not part really of the campaign for Kamala because it

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Speaker 1: really didn't work. And I think that the reason that

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Speaker 1: it didn't work with Hillary is complicated, But I was

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Speaker 1: just nervous about her reminding everyone of the fact that

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Speaker 1: the gender thing. And I'm just cautious.

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Speaker 3: In saying that though Obama when he was campaigning, I

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Speaker 3: don't think it was central to his campaign, but it

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Speaker 3: was certainly underpinning it that he was potentially going to

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Speaker 3: be the first person of color and that was exciting.

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Speaker 1: That's because and it always works if you can be

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Speaker 1: a change candidate, except when it was Hillary CLIs and

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Speaker 1: the reason that she couldn't make herself a change candidate

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Speaker 1: is because of the Clinton thing. She could so she'd

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Speaker 1: been around for so long she couldn't but come a lot,

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Speaker 1: which is ironic. Well, even though she's the vice president,

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Speaker 1: so she shouldn't be able to. But she feels like

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Speaker 1: a change because ironically we haven't seen or heard much

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Speaker 1: of her in the last four years, so she does

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Speaker 1: feel like a change candidate, even though she's kind of

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Speaker 1: the incumbent.

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Speaker 2: The Republicans are saying that she is not a change

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Speaker 2: candidate how she managed to skape through it. I agree

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Speaker 2: with you. I don't think we will hear very much

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Speaker 2: about gender and the first and all those things. But

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Speaker 2: I think that that moment just did remind us. It

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Speaker 2: reminded me like of how far we've come and how

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Speaker 2: far we have to go. And I loved it. Tell

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Speaker 2: us what you think out louders leave us a voice,

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Speaker 2: not send us an email.

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Speaker 1: Lovely out loud.

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Speaker 6: So let me get this straight. You, as a very

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Speaker 6: privileged person who have got two healthy children as far

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Speaker 6: as you know, want me, someone who is experience operiencing

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Speaker 6: trauma and pain to put a trigger warning on my

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Speaker 6: child's life to make you feel more comfortable.

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Speaker 1: A few months ago, a theater company in Melbourne was

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Speaker 1: in the headlines for the use of trigger warnings or

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Speaker 1: content warnings in the promotion of all of its shows,

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Speaker 1: including on its website and on No Filter. This week

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Speaker 1: I interviewed a woman called Rachel Cassella about the topic

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Speaker 1: of trigger warnings.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 1: Rachel has been diagnosed with PTSD after living through numerous

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Speaker 1: traumatic events, including her daughter McKenzie, who died in twenty

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Speaker 1: seventeen after being diagnosed with a genetic condition and only

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Speaker 1: lived for seven months and eleven days. Now, Rachel is

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Speaker 1: the mum of three McKenzie and also her two boys,

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Speaker 1: who raged one and three. But she writes about McKenzie

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Speaker 1: a lot, and she writes about the experience of pregnancy loss.

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Speaker 1: She lost a number of children during pregnancy, as well

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Speaker 1: as McKenzie at seven months. And the reason that I'm

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Speaker 1: connecting these two things, which might seem so disparate, is

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Speaker 1: that Rachel believes very strongly that she will not ever

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Speaker 1: put a trigger warning on content about her daughter's life.

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Speaker 1: She's written about it for Mamma Maya. And it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting episode of No Filter because we've talked about trigger

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Speaker 1: warnings a lot on this show. I have got strong

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Speaker 1: views as a person and also as a person who

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Speaker 1: runs a media company, but we wanted to also talk

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Speaker 1: to an academic and look at the science of it.

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Speaker 1: So in the episode, we interviewed Rachel, but we also

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Speaker 1: interviewed a woman called Victoria Bridgeland who's an academic and

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Speaker 1: researcher at Flinda's University, and she's studied the effects and

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Speaker 1: impact of trigger warnings. Her work has found that trigger

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Speaker 1: warnings don't work. Essentially, here's a little bit of what

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Speaker 1: she said.

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Speaker 7: No matter how you slice it, I just think they're

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Speaker 7: not doing much at all of anything they're they're definitely

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Speaker 7: not helping, and there's some evidence that they're probably doing

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Speaker 7: some harm. But it's just really bad to assume that

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Speaker 7: as long as you slap a trigger warning on any

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Speaker 7: piece of media, you're protecting people. Or you know, if

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Speaker 7: a professor just puts a trigger warning on their class

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Speaker 7: material but doesn't think about how the class will receive

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Speaker 7: it or fair any support, or it's like a band

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Speaker 7: aid to sort of slap on things and try and

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Speaker 7: fix this mental health crisis that we'd always talking about.

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Speaker 1: Jesse, did you listen to the episode No Pressure.

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Speaker 3: I started listening because I was very interested in it,

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Speaker 3: and twelve minutes in I was walking down the street

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Speaker 3: and I audibly said the word out loud no, and

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Speaker 3: I turned it off. And I have been examining my

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Speaker 3: response to that.

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Speaker 1: At what point in Rachel's story did you turn it off?

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Speaker 3: She was speaking because I know Rachel's story, so the

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Speaker 3: work that she has done is so important.

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Speaker 1: I have enormous laws around genetic testing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, enormous respect for Rachel. There was a detail she

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Speaker 3: was sharing about what did trigger her, and she was

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Speaker 3: talking about a very specific example of something that happened

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Speaker 3: in an ambulance. I know exactly the moment you talk

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Speaker 3: and I felt like I was going to vomit, like

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Speaker 3: I was so emotionally distressed, which sounds like a ridiculous

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Speaker 3: thing to say when I'm listening it does a story, it.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't at all, So how did you feel?

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Speaker 3: I just thought, I actually don't think that there is

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Speaker 3: room within me to listen to this story right now,

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Speaker 3: and I stopped listening. I thought about trigger warnings. I

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Speaker 3: did come back to it because I knew we were

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Speaker 3: talking about it today and I wanted to listen to

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Speaker 3: what the research said because I have cited the research

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Speaker 3: in the past and I think it's pretty conclusive. But

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Speaker 3: I do want to offer another perspective that I thought

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Speaker 3: might have been missing from the conversation, which explains why

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Speaker 3: I turned it off. So, for example, yesterday I was

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Speaker 3: scrolling through my Instagram feed and I noticed that this

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Speaker 3: is what I saw. In one scroll. I saw a

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Speaker 3: story about miscarriage, a story about stillbirth, images of babies

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Speaker 3: and children who had been killed in Gaza, one about

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Speaker 3: a fatal car accident that claimed the lives of children,

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Speaker 3: and then there was a story on Mamma Maya about

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Speaker 3: baby boxes when newborns are surrendered. There's nothing wrong with

437
00:22:05,927 --> 00:22:09,087
Speaker 3: any of this content in isolation, and I'm not saying

438
00:22:09,127 --> 00:22:12,607
Speaker 3: it shouldn't exist, but when it is aggregated like that,

439
00:22:13,727 --> 00:22:17,287
Speaker 3: what that does to your nervous system and to your

440
00:22:17,487 --> 00:22:20,687
Speaker 3: sense of sort of safety in the world, when you're

441
00:22:20,727 --> 00:22:24,647
Speaker 3: trying to raise a baby who's sitting beside you and

442
00:22:24,767 --> 00:22:26,767
Speaker 3: you're trying to look after that baby is I just

443
00:22:26,807 --> 00:22:30,127
Speaker 3: feel completely overwhelmed. And I found it on homepages as well.

444
00:22:30,167 --> 00:22:33,167
Speaker 3: As I look at a homepage, I feel my heart race,

445
00:22:34,007 --> 00:22:37,807
Speaker 3: and sometimes I do feel assaulted by certain information. I

446
00:22:37,847 --> 00:22:40,807
Speaker 3: click on it and I go Sexual violence is another

447
00:22:40,807 --> 00:22:44,087
Speaker 3: one that has crept into IF Laura and Orders on

448
00:22:44,127 --> 00:22:47,687
Speaker 3: the TV. It's every true crime podcast, it's every story

449
00:22:47,727 --> 00:22:50,647
Speaker 3: you read. And I think, if I'm going to be

450
00:22:51,247 --> 00:22:56,207
Speaker 3: a useful person who is capable of helping those around me,

451
00:22:57,207 --> 00:23:00,167
Speaker 3: I don't think it is my moral or emotional obligation

452
00:23:00,967 --> 00:23:04,287
Speaker 3: to bear witness to all of this, which actually speaks

453
00:23:04,287 --> 00:23:07,567
Speaker 3: to Rachel's point, which was so astute, that trigger warnings

454
00:23:07,607 --> 00:23:10,567
Speaker 3: are not for the people who have experienced it.

455
00:23:10,807 --> 00:23:13,207
Speaker 8: I would say that ninety ninety percent of the time,

456
00:23:13,287 --> 00:23:16,407
Speaker 8: the people who want the trigger warning haven't experienced that trauma,

457
00:23:16,847 --> 00:23:19,327
Speaker 8: because most of the people, at least in the child

458
00:23:19,327 --> 00:23:23,567
Speaker 8: loss community, do not want trigger warnings on their children.

459
00:23:23,807 --> 00:23:25,647
Speaker 3: I am someone who has not experienced what she was

460
00:23:25,687 --> 00:23:29,727
Speaker 3: talking about, but I feel as though I need some

461
00:23:29,847 --> 00:23:32,927
Speaker 3: control over the content that I am consuming. And that's

462
00:23:32,927 --> 00:23:35,327
Speaker 3: why I think this isn't even a conversation about trigger warnings,

463
00:23:35,407 --> 00:23:38,367
Speaker 3: is a conversation about the Internet and what the Internet

464
00:23:38,727 --> 00:23:42,767
Speaker 3: does to us, because I feel as though she is

465
00:23:42,887 --> 00:23:46,327
Speaker 3: right that something could happen. We are all going to

466
00:23:46,327 --> 00:23:49,807
Speaker 3: be touched by grief and tragedy and pain to varying degrees,

467
00:23:49,847 --> 00:23:52,167
Speaker 3: and we cannot control that. And we've got to accept that.

468
00:23:53,087 --> 00:23:56,167
Speaker 3: I do not need to read every tragic thing that

469
00:23:56,207 --> 00:23:58,967
Speaker 3: happened in the world today, and so I think that

470
00:23:59,047 --> 00:24:01,047
Speaker 3: the push for trigger warnings and the push for content

471
00:24:01,087 --> 00:24:04,287
Speaker 3: warnings is an attempt to redeem some of that control

472
00:24:04,327 --> 00:24:07,847
Speaker 3: and to go. I need to not have the pain

473
00:24:08,207 --> 00:24:10,767
Speaker 3: of global humane on my shoulders today.

474
00:24:10,807 --> 00:24:12,567
Speaker 1: Do you think trigger warnings on any of those things

475
00:24:12,607 --> 00:24:13,967
Speaker 1: would have made a difference.

476
00:24:14,367 --> 00:24:18,727
Speaker 3: Yeah, because the second I knew with that story that

477
00:24:19,047 --> 00:24:21,567
Speaker 3: there were going to be certain details, but you did know.

478
00:24:22,007 --> 00:24:25,247
Speaker 1: This is what's interesting. Yeah, you knew Rachel's story going in,

479
00:24:25,327 --> 00:24:28,287
Speaker 1: So essentially you didn't need a trigger warning because you

480
00:24:28,287 --> 00:24:30,527
Speaker 1: already had one in your head, and yet you listened

481
00:24:30,887 --> 00:24:31,927
Speaker 1: until you couldn't listen to that.

482
00:24:32,407 --> 00:24:35,207
Speaker 3: I think I thought from the title that it was

483
00:24:35,247 --> 00:24:37,487
Speaker 3: going to be a broader discussion about trigger warnings, and

484
00:24:37,527 --> 00:24:39,207
Speaker 3: then when I got that, and I don't want to

485
00:24:39,247 --> 00:24:42,767
Speaker 3: censor what she is saying because she is right. I

486
00:24:42,967 --> 00:24:45,367
Speaker 3: felt in the way that she talked, I felt Mackenzie,

487
00:24:45,367 --> 00:24:48,927
Speaker 3: and I felt how alive and how incredible and what

488
00:24:49,047 --> 00:24:51,967
Speaker 3: a person she was. I have found in my own

489
00:24:52,167 --> 00:24:55,247
Speaker 3: behavior that I see certain things and I go, oh,

490
00:24:55,287 --> 00:24:57,967
Speaker 3: that's actually going to be too upsetting for me today.

491
00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:00,087
Speaker 3: And there's what would you have liked see? And I

492
00:25:00,127 --> 00:25:01,767
Speaker 3: don't think that this is about a trigger warning, And

493
00:25:01,807 --> 00:25:03,367
Speaker 3: this is why I pushed, because I don't think the

494
00:25:03,367 --> 00:25:05,647
Speaker 3: word trigger is the one we're looking for. I think

495
00:25:05,687 --> 00:25:08,607
Speaker 3: content warnings. I think the way that film and television

496
00:25:08,647 --> 00:25:12,807
Speaker 3: does it is right sometimes. So I really don't like,

497
00:25:12,887 --> 00:25:15,927
Speaker 3: for example, violence, I actually feel really sick when I

498
00:25:15,967 --> 00:25:18,567
Speaker 3: see punching, like when I see physical violence. If something

499
00:25:18,567 --> 00:25:20,327
Speaker 3: says there's going to be heaps of physical violence in this,

500
00:25:20,367 --> 00:25:21,927
Speaker 3: I'll be like, oh, I can't.

501
00:25:22,447 --> 00:25:25,327
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree. More like, I loved this conversation. I

502
00:25:25,327 --> 00:25:27,247
Speaker 2: think me and you did it so well, Like the

503
00:25:27,287 --> 00:25:30,287
Speaker 2: way that you set this up with Rachel talking about

504
00:25:30,287 --> 00:25:34,167
Speaker 2: her situation and obviously then addressing it more broadly. It

505
00:25:34,247 --> 00:25:36,927
Speaker 2: was interesting when Victoria the Expert was talking. She said

506
00:25:37,007 --> 00:25:40,527
Speaker 2: that they don't work because people ignore them. But personally,

507
00:25:40,727 --> 00:25:43,727
Speaker 2: if I watch my behavior, if I'm scrolling through Instagram, whatever,

508
00:25:43,767 --> 00:25:47,287
Speaker 2: and a post starts with a CWTW, then I usually

509
00:25:47,327 --> 00:25:51,487
Speaker 2: scroll past it. As Jesse is just beautifully articulated. Some

510
00:25:51,647 --> 00:25:55,047
Speaker 2: days I can handle that stuff, and some days, for

511
00:25:55,087 --> 00:25:57,487
Speaker 2: whatever reason, I really can't. And so I'll be like,

512
00:25:57,527 --> 00:25:59,807
Speaker 2: you know, what do I need right now to put

513
00:25:59,807 --> 00:26:00,727
Speaker 2: that in my mind?

514
00:26:00,887 --> 00:26:00,967
Speaker 7: No?

515
00:26:01,087 --> 00:26:03,567
Speaker 1: I don't, So I want to just ask you Cole, though,

516
00:26:03,727 --> 00:26:06,807
Speaker 1: when you say that stuff, what do you mean?

517
00:26:07,167 --> 00:26:07,327
Speaker 9: Well?

518
00:26:07,367 --> 00:26:09,567
Speaker 2: I think everybody has different triggers, but I think that

519
00:26:09,687 --> 00:26:12,967
Speaker 2: Jesse has got, you know, explained it very beautifully. When

520
00:26:12,967 --> 00:26:14,927
Speaker 2: you're talking about the suffering of children, or whether you're

521
00:26:14,927 --> 00:26:18,207
Speaker 2: talking about violence or sexual assault. Some days I do

522
00:26:18,247 --> 00:26:21,007
Speaker 2: feel like I can handle all that, and some days

523
00:26:21,247 --> 00:26:24,607
Speaker 2: I don't. And I don't really think there's anything wrong

524
00:26:24,647 --> 00:26:27,887
Speaker 2: with understanding what I'm about to look at. The thing

525
00:26:27,927 --> 00:26:30,407
Speaker 2: I would love to understand better is why they upset

526
00:26:30,447 --> 00:26:34,407
Speaker 2: people so much, because even in the example of that theater,

527
00:26:35,527 --> 00:26:38,287
Speaker 2: you start the episode of no Filter by reading all

528
00:26:38,327 --> 00:26:41,087
Speaker 2: the trigger warnings for Macbeth a production of Macbeth at

529
00:26:41,127 --> 00:26:44,047
Speaker 2: that theater. I've also read columns in the newspapers.

530
00:26:44,567 --> 00:26:47,367
Speaker 1: Words of very detailed description.

531
00:26:47,527 --> 00:26:49,607
Speaker 2: But if I want to read that, I have to

532
00:26:49,607 --> 00:26:51,687
Speaker 2: go look for it. If I'm going to buy a

533
00:26:51,727 --> 00:26:54,047
Speaker 2: ticket to go and watch Macbeth at that theater, I

534
00:26:54,087 --> 00:26:56,247
Speaker 2: do not have to read those trigger warnings before I

535
00:26:56,287 --> 00:26:58,247
Speaker 2: buy my ticket. I do not have to read them

536
00:26:58,247 --> 00:27:00,807
Speaker 2: before I go in. So they exist there for the

537
00:27:00,847 --> 00:27:03,247
Speaker 2: people who want them and need them. And the thing

538
00:27:03,287 --> 00:27:07,567
Speaker 2: I don't really understand about why they insense everybody so much,

539
00:27:07,567 --> 00:27:09,167
Speaker 2: and I'd love you to explain this to me a bit,

540
00:27:10,047 --> 00:27:13,607
Speaker 2: is because to me, it's like an accessible bathroom or subtitles.

541
00:27:13,647 --> 00:27:16,727
Speaker 2: If you need them, it's great. If you don't need them,

542
00:27:16,767 --> 00:27:18,887
Speaker 2: they're just there, do you know what I mean?

543
00:27:19,167 --> 00:27:21,767
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's always been your position, like what's the harm?

544
00:27:22,007 --> 00:27:24,847
Speaker 1: What's the harm? Yeah, well, literally there is harm.

545
00:27:24,927 --> 00:27:27,287
Speaker 2: So the research show Victoria even said there was harm.

546
00:27:27,367 --> 00:27:29,447
Speaker 2: She said, there's a little bit of research that she knows.

547
00:27:29,487 --> 00:27:33,487
Speaker 1: She goes on to say that it is harmful because

548
00:27:33,527 --> 00:27:36,887
Speaker 1: for two reasons. Firstly, is that avoidance creates more avoidance

549
00:27:37,247 --> 00:27:40,887
Speaker 1: because avoidance tells you, it defines you, and says you're

550
00:27:40,887 --> 00:27:42,527
Speaker 1: going to be really upset by something.

551
00:27:42,567 --> 00:27:44,247
Speaker 2: But what if you are going to be really upset

552
00:27:44,247 --> 00:27:44,647
Speaker 2: by some.

553
00:27:44,687 --> 00:27:47,167
Speaker 1: Okay, absolutely fair point. What if you're going to be

554
00:27:47,247 --> 00:27:50,287
Speaker 1: upset by something? What's interesting to me about your defensive

555
00:27:50,327 --> 00:27:54,327
Speaker 1: content warnings hole is that you're a content creator and

556
00:27:54,367 --> 00:27:57,727
Speaker 1: you're also an author. So I'm always interested to understand. Firstly,

557
00:27:58,407 --> 00:28:01,207
Speaker 1: life is upsetting, and you know, I think that what

558
00:28:01,327 --> 00:28:04,487
Speaker 1: happened to Jesse is the way that life works, right,

559
00:28:04,567 --> 00:28:06,327
Speaker 1: Like if you're watching a TV show and it was

560
00:28:06,447 --> 00:28:08,687
Speaker 1: very interesting what you said, Jesse. When I listen to

561
00:28:08,687 --> 00:28:11,407
Speaker 1: a true crime podcast or when I watch a crime

562
00:28:11,487 --> 00:28:14,327
Speaker 1: TV show, I don't listen to two crime podcasts or

563
00:28:14,367 --> 00:28:19,047
Speaker 1: watch TV shows like that for that reason. That's my responsibility, right.

564
00:28:19,607 --> 00:28:21,807
Speaker 1: So the two problems with this is, firstly, what a

565
00:28:21,807 --> 00:28:25,007
Speaker 1: content warning does? Is it outsources your mental health to

566
00:28:25,087 --> 00:28:28,007
Speaker 1: the internet, which is not a good idea, the idea

567
00:28:28,047 --> 00:28:32,167
Speaker 1: that it's someone else's responsibility to protect you from being distressed.

568
00:28:32,687 --> 00:28:36,727
Speaker 1: That's the first problem. The second problem is that the

569
00:28:36,807 --> 00:28:39,887
Speaker 1: reason that there's trigger creep is because the things that

570
00:28:39,927 --> 00:28:43,527
Speaker 1: trigger everyone are very specific and very personal. So if

571
00:28:43,527 --> 00:28:46,047
Speaker 1: there'd been a content warning Jesse at the start of

572
00:28:46,047 --> 00:28:50,207
Speaker 1: that about death of a child, you already know Rachel's story, right,

573
00:28:50,247 --> 00:28:51,847
Speaker 1: so you knew that going in. You knew that it

574
00:28:51,967 --> 00:28:54,327
Speaker 1: was going to no doubt discuss the death of a

575
00:28:54,367 --> 00:28:58,447
Speaker 1: baby around the same age as yours. But she was

576
00:28:58,487 --> 00:29:01,487
Speaker 1: saying what triggers her are things that they would never

577
00:29:01,567 --> 00:29:03,967
Speaker 1: be content warnings for, like the sound of an ambulance

578
00:29:04,007 --> 00:29:07,527
Speaker 1: and the song Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star. That's what triggered

579
00:29:07,527 --> 00:29:09,927
Speaker 1: you too, but then you turned it off, and so

580
00:29:10,007 --> 00:29:11,687
Speaker 1: that's the world working as it should.

581
00:29:12,047 --> 00:29:14,047
Speaker 2: I get that, and I have, as I say, I

582
00:29:14,047 --> 00:29:15,887
Speaker 2: had a enormous amount of respect for the way Rachel

583
00:29:15,887 --> 00:29:18,767
Speaker 2: told this story. I also actually think though, that her

584
00:29:18,807 --> 00:29:21,607
Speaker 2: story is very specific because the thing that she was

585
00:29:21,607 --> 00:29:23,847
Speaker 2: pushing back on in the post that she wrote that

586
00:29:23,927 --> 00:29:26,487
Speaker 2: was so successful is the fact that people are saying

587
00:29:26,487 --> 00:29:29,127
Speaker 2: what Jesse was saying, which is like, I'm pregnant or

588
00:29:29,207 --> 00:29:32,687
Speaker 2: I'm expecting a child and seeing images like this really

589
00:29:32,767 --> 00:29:35,127
Speaker 2: upset me. I'm one hundred percent with Rachel. I don't

590
00:29:35,127 --> 00:29:37,967
Speaker 2: think she should have trigger warnings of contact warnings on that.

591
00:29:38,287 --> 00:29:41,087
Speaker 2: We used to have a content series of Mamma Mia

592
00:29:41,127 --> 00:29:43,167
Speaker 2: that was also a Facebook group called Never Forgotten that

593
00:29:43,287 --> 00:29:47,247
Speaker 2: was about infant loss and stillbirth. People would post pictures

594
00:29:47,487 --> 00:29:51,087
Speaker 2: in there of their beautiful children who were born sleeping,

595
00:29:51,127 --> 00:29:54,367
Speaker 2: as they would say, and some people would find that

596
00:29:54,567 --> 00:29:58,447
Speaker 2: so upsetting, but so many more people who needed that

597
00:29:58,607 --> 00:30:02,527
Speaker 2: more found it really life affirming and important and validating.

598
00:30:02,807 --> 00:30:05,767
Speaker 2: But importantly, it was a choice to go there, right,

599
00:30:05,807 --> 00:30:08,407
Speaker 2: it's a choice to go there. It is a different

600
00:30:08,447 --> 00:30:10,287
Speaker 2: thing if you're going to come across it in a day.

601
00:30:10,327 --> 00:30:13,327
Speaker 2: Because I think I get your point about life's upsetting,

602
00:30:14,047 --> 00:30:16,927
Speaker 2: But for anyone who and it's everyone, because as you say,

603
00:30:16,967 --> 00:30:18,727
Speaker 2: life is upsetting and we've all been touched by it,

604
00:30:19,127 --> 00:30:21,927
Speaker 2: I think there's nothing wrong with getting to choose whether

605
00:30:21,967 --> 00:30:25,127
Speaker 2: you want to be hijacked by your worst moment on

606
00:30:25,207 --> 00:30:28,287
Speaker 2: any particular moment, and you can't control everything. You can't

607
00:30:28,287 --> 00:30:29,367
Speaker 2: control the ambulance site.

608
00:30:29,407 --> 00:30:30,087
Speaker 4: You can never.

609
00:30:30,007 --> 00:30:32,807
Speaker 1: Control what comes up in a conversation. You can never.

610
00:30:32,727 --> 00:30:34,647
Speaker 2: Control, can't. But there are some things in life you

611
00:30:34,687 --> 00:30:36,287
Speaker 2: can control and there are some you can't.

612
00:30:36,567 --> 00:30:42,327
Speaker 1: So okay, because someone has to be responsible for reading

613
00:30:42,367 --> 00:30:46,287
Speaker 1: that and deciding all the things that might trigger someone.

614
00:30:46,407 --> 00:30:46,647
Speaker 3: Right.

615
00:30:47,047 --> 00:30:51,127
Speaker 1: So, for example, the Lively movie, it ends with us.

616
00:30:51,727 --> 00:30:54,127
Speaker 1: You know, I read some entertainment sites, gossip sites, and

617
00:30:54,167 --> 00:30:56,847
Speaker 1: there'll be a content warning and it will say content

618
00:30:56,887 --> 00:31:00,567
Speaker 1: warning discussion of domestic violence. There won't be actual discussion

619
00:31:00,687 --> 00:31:03,887
Speaker 1: of the acts of domestic violence. It will literally say

620
00:31:04,087 --> 00:31:07,407
Speaker 1: this movie is about domestic violence. It will literally be

621
00:31:07,687 --> 00:31:11,607
Speaker 1: just those words. My point is there are some things

622
00:31:11,647 --> 00:31:13,927
Speaker 1: that we can agree on, and many people who don't

623
00:31:13,927 --> 00:31:16,567
Speaker 1: work in the media might think that these things are mandatory.

624
00:31:16,607 --> 00:31:20,327
Speaker 1: They're not. They're completely subjective. Right. What we're talking about

625
00:31:20,527 --> 00:31:24,647
Speaker 1: is who am I as a content creator to say

626
00:31:25,167 --> 00:31:28,687
Speaker 1: what might or might not trigger you and upset you.

627
00:31:29,047 --> 00:31:32,007
Speaker 1: So some of the things that people have started using

628
00:31:32,167 --> 00:31:37,527
Speaker 1: content warnings for are depictions of meat. This recipe contains

629
00:31:37,567 --> 00:31:42,087
Speaker 1: meat in the macbeth one, occasional drinking and smoking. There's

630
00:31:42,087 --> 00:31:46,007
Speaker 1: a whole section under that, under swearing, under diet culture,

631
00:31:46,287 --> 00:31:47,927
Speaker 1: under exercise.

632
00:31:47,327 --> 00:31:49,407
Speaker 2: And again you only need to look at it if

633
00:31:49,447 --> 00:31:52,127
Speaker 2: you want to look at it. I don't understand the

634
00:31:52,167 --> 00:31:53,487
Speaker 2: philosophical Okay.

635
00:31:53,567 --> 00:31:55,127
Speaker 1: What trigger warnings would you have put at the start

636
00:31:55,127 --> 00:31:55,967
Speaker 1: of this episode.

637
00:31:56,327 --> 00:32:00,167
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I'm like, I'm entirely okay with the idea

638
00:32:00,207 --> 00:32:02,807
Speaker 2: that it's not mandatory. I'm not arguing for a second

639
00:32:02,847 --> 00:32:05,167
Speaker 2: that it should be mandatory. I just do not feel

640
00:32:05,207 --> 00:32:08,727
Speaker 2: the way that you do that they are somehow making

641
00:32:08,807 --> 00:32:12,327
Speaker 2: us all because I actually think that, as Jesse articulated

642
00:32:12,447 --> 00:32:14,687
Speaker 2: very well at the beginning of this the way we

643
00:32:14,767 --> 00:32:17,727
Speaker 2: consume media and the pace and the amount we consume

644
00:32:17,767 --> 00:32:20,807
Speaker 2: now has never been like this before. So I don't

645
00:32:20,847 --> 00:32:23,207
Speaker 2: think it's unreasonable to say, hey, we might need a

646
00:32:23,207 --> 00:32:27,047
Speaker 2: few guardrails. Some organizations might choose to do it. And

647
00:32:27,127 --> 00:32:29,087
Speaker 2: if that theater company chooses to do it, and they

648
00:32:29,127 --> 00:32:31,167
Speaker 2: choose to put it on their website behind a big

649
00:32:31,167 --> 00:32:34,407
Speaker 2: thing that says content warnings that I don't have to

650
00:32:34,407 --> 00:32:36,007
Speaker 2: read and tick a box before I walk in, because

651
00:32:36,047 --> 00:32:37,127
Speaker 2: I'd rather not know.

652
00:32:37,207 --> 00:32:41,207
Speaker 1: Well, interesting the playwright a playwright and Shakespeare's you know, interesting,

653
00:32:41,247 --> 00:32:44,327
Speaker 1: because you would also assume everybody knows that a playwright

654
00:32:44,367 --> 00:32:46,927
Speaker 1: has come out, and if it's coming for theater, it's

655
00:32:46,927 --> 00:32:49,447
Speaker 1: coming for your novels. Right, So if you have to

656
00:32:49,567 --> 00:32:53,527
Speaker 1: list everything at the beginning, that gives the plot away,

657
00:32:53,767 --> 00:32:55,807
Speaker 1: spoils the element of surprise, and he also says it

658
00:32:55,927 --> 00:32:59,207
Speaker 1: reduces it. Like to mention, he used an example in

659
00:32:59,287 --> 00:33:03,407
Speaker 1: his play. He said, like a word was used, and so,

660
00:33:03,687 --> 00:33:06,727
Speaker 1: for example, wasn't this but like abortion? But he said,

661
00:33:06,727 --> 00:33:09,647
Speaker 1: it's not a play about abortion. And yet the content

662
00:33:09,687 --> 00:33:13,487
Speaker 1: warning mentioned all these things gave away important plot points

663
00:33:13,727 --> 00:33:17,567
Speaker 1: and made the play seem like this horrible, depressing.

664
00:33:17,047 --> 00:33:19,287
Speaker 3: Particular think that it wasn't and you're priming them to

665
00:33:19,327 --> 00:33:22,687
Speaker 3: wait for that moment, which, like in terms of fiction

666
00:33:22,767 --> 00:33:26,327
Speaker 3: and storytelling, isn't ideal. But I have always been against

667
00:33:26,327 --> 00:33:29,247
Speaker 3: trigger warnings, and I've kind of been changing my mind

668
00:33:29,287 --> 00:33:30,927
Speaker 3: a little bit on it. But I think that what

669
00:33:31,047 --> 00:33:34,447
Speaker 3: Holly's speaking to is that there's this other philosophy coming

670
00:33:34,487 --> 00:33:36,327
Speaker 3: in that I think Holly and I are pushing back to,

671
00:33:36,647 --> 00:33:41,887
Speaker 3: which is almost a conservative dog whistle of hardner. There's

672
00:33:41,927 --> 00:33:44,807
Speaker 3: this thing of just like everyone needs to harden and

673
00:33:44,927 --> 00:33:46,447
Speaker 3: just look at it, just look at it.

674
00:33:46,607 --> 00:33:49,567
Speaker 1: No Jesse, no one's saying just look at it. If

675
00:33:49,567 --> 00:33:52,127
Speaker 1: you start reading something like I've put down books that

676
00:33:52,327 --> 00:33:54,487
Speaker 1: there's something in there that I find upsetting. I don't

677
00:33:54,487 --> 00:33:57,007
Speaker 1: want to read it. I've put it down. That's my choice.

678
00:33:57,087 --> 00:33:59,367
Speaker 1: No one's forcing you to look at all these stories

679
00:33:59,407 --> 00:34:01,447
Speaker 1: that you talk about, No, no, no pay witness.

680
00:34:01,687 --> 00:34:04,047
Speaker 3: But this thing about life doesn't come with a trigger warning.

681
00:34:04,287 --> 00:34:06,087
Speaker 3: I just think you said before a conversation. If I'm

682
00:34:06,087 --> 00:34:08,327
Speaker 3: speaking to a friend and she speaks to me about

683
00:34:08,367 --> 00:34:10,927
Speaker 3: her miscarriage, I'm not going to say that needed a

684
00:34:10,967 --> 00:34:14,047
Speaker 3: trigger warning because a conversation, you have one of those

685
00:34:14,087 --> 00:34:15,967
Speaker 3: at a time with one person.

686
00:34:16,207 --> 00:34:18,607
Speaker 1: But you were just listening to Rachel tell her story.

687
00:34:18,647 --> 00:34:20,407
Speaker 1: That was just one person telling one story.

688
00:34:20,447 --> 00:34:23,887
Speaker 3: But I might listen to honestly, like four podcasts that

689
00:34:23,967 --> 00:34:26,447
Speaker 3: day and then consume eleven articles and the other thing

690
00:34:26,487 --> 00:34:27,047
Speaker 3: that I reckon.

691
00:34:27,287 --> 00:34:30,247
Speaker 1: But how is it the responsibility of me, as someone

692
00:34:30,327 --> 00:34:33,247
Speaker 1: who's either a normal person who's posting on my Instagram

693
00:34:33,327 --> 00:34:35,407
Speaker 1: about the fact that I had to put down my

694
00:34:35,487 --> 00:34:38,967
Speaker 1: dog or that I had a miscarriage. I don't know.

695
00:34:39,047 --> 00:34:41,367
Speaker 3: To be cleared out, I don't think protect you. I

696
00:34:41,407 --> 00:34:43,607
Speaker 3: don't think that podcast should have had a trigger warning.

697
00:34:43,727 --> 00:34:47,207
Speaker 3: I don't. But in that moment, I felt something that

698
00:34:47,287 --> 00:34:50,367
Speaker 3: made me interrogate wid you felt upset?

699
00:34:50,527 --> 00:34:54,127
Speaker 1: Guess what? Guess how upset do you think Rachel felt me?

700
00:34:54,367 --> 00:34:58,087
Speaker 2: This is what I It's not about content warnings. It's

701
00:34:58,127 --> 00:35:00,887
Speaker 2: about your particular and not just when I say you,

702
00:35:00,967 --> 00:35:02,767
Speaker 2: I don't mean you, I mean all the people who

703
00:35:02,807 --> 00:35:05,967
Speaker 2: get so upset about content warnings. It's about your deep

704
00:35:06,487 --> 00:35:08,887
Speaker 2: harden up, your all snowflakes to.

705
00:35:08,887 --> 00:35:11,447
Speaker 1: Me from the same place as the people who say

706
00:35:11,767 --> 00:35:15,607
Speaker 1: I disagree with what you wrote, Jesse, you need to

707
00:35:15,687 --> 00:35:16,287
Speaker 1: delete it.

708
00:35:16,167 --> 00:35:17,367
Speaker 3: To change what do you think?

709
00:35:17,407 --> 00:35:24,367
Speaker 1: Because it's like people having no resilience for feelings of discomfort, upset, disappointment.

710
00:35:24,607 --> 00:35:28,087
Speaker 1: We need to be helicopters and suddenly the world needs

711
00:35:28,127 --> 00:35:31,367
Speaker 1: to be my helicopter and protect me from bad That's a.

712
00:35:31,367 --> 00:35:34,167
Speaker 2: Very specific view on that. I think people like Rachel

713
00:35:34,207 --> 00:35:36,047
Speaker 2: is allowed to have her opinion about that.

714
00:35:36,127 --> 00:35:39,007
Speaker 1: But also this is the research shows that well at.

715
00:35:40,567 --> 00:35:43,527
Speaker 3: The philosophy, the philosophy you're talking about is the same

716
00:35:43,527 --> 00:35:46,087
Speaker 3: philosophy that I am feeling a lot on the internet

717
00:35:46,167 --> 00:35:49,967
Speaker 3: that is yelling sometimes explicitly to me bear witness. Look

718
00:35:49,967 --> 00:35:50,247
Speaker 3: at this.

719
00:35:50,327 --> 00:35:53,327
Speaker 1: Do you know what if there's somebody who's posting those

720
00:35:53,447 --> 00:35:57,607
Speaker 1: kind of images, you can block them, you can unfollow them.

721
00:35:57,687 --> 00:36:01,407
Speaker 1: That is your responsibility as a human. If you're listening

722
00:36:01,407 --> 00:36:04,367
Speaker 1: to a podcast about someone being murdered, you can choose

723
00:36:04,407 --> 00:36:06,007
Speaker 1: to either not listen to bit to it in the

724
00:36:06,007 --> 00:36:07,767
Speaker 1: first place, or turn it off.

725
00:36:07,807 --> 00:36:10,567
Speaker 2: But also, what's wrong with knowing that it's going to

726
00:36:10,607 --> 00:36:10,967
Speaker 2: be there?

727
00:36:11,327 --> 00:36:14,967
Speaker 1: I just don't understand because the problem because I can

728
00:36:15,007 --> 00:36:16,887
Speaker 1: tell you the problem with knowing that it's going to

729
00:36:16,887 --> 00:36:20,767
Speaker 1: be there. Firstly, you're giving a job to all the people.

730
00:36:21,047 --> 00:36:23,407
Speaker 2: No, only if it's mandatory, you are if it's entirely

731
00:36:23,447 --> 00:36:24,927
Speaker 2: your choice whether or not you want to.

732
00:36:25,167 --> 00:36:28,167
Speaker 1: Because so the more you do, the more trigger warnings

733
00:36:28,167 --> 00:36:30,567
Speaker 1: there are, the more people expect. That's why it's creep.

734
00:36:30,887 --> 00:36:33,407
Speaker 1: So when you start reading a trigger warning for this,

735
00:36:33,527 --> 00:36:36,167
Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, I need to be protected from that.

736
00:36:36,567 --> 00:36:39,407
Speaker 1: And so you're like, you're right upset by this hold.

737
00:36:39,447 --> 00:36:41,087
Speaker 1: And this is the thing where people talking about soft

738
00:36:41,527 --> 00:36:43,847
Speaker 1: and I agree with you. The internet is full on man,

739
00:36:43,887 --> 00:36:45,927
Speaker 1: and our brains are not equipped to deal with it.

740
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,407
Speaker 1: But the answer is not to outsource that management to

741
00:36:49,527 --> 00:36:53,247
Speaker 1: every individual person and organization that posts contents.

742
00:36:53,247 --> 00:36:55,287
Speaker 2: I don't see it like that at all. I don't

743
00:36:55,407 --> 00:36:57,407
Speaker 2: I think it's in the same way that we're allowed

744
00:36:57,447 --> 00:37:00,607
Speaker 2: to start saying to tech companies, you know, maybe don't

745
00:37:00,687 --> 00:37:03,807
Speaker 2: keep feeding eating disorder content to teenage girls. Maybe we

746
00:37:03,847 --> 00:37:05,127
Speaker 2: need some more rigor around this.

747
00:37:05,247 --> 00:37:06,527
Speaker 3: Maybe don't live stream a massa.

748
00:37:06,687 --> 00:37:10,327
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, It's fine to sometimes ask a brand new

749
00:37:10,327 --> 00:37:12,087
Speaker 2: way that we consume media to look at what they're

750
00:37:12,127 --> 00:37:15,087
Speaker 2: doing and consider it. I walk alongside you with the

751
00:37:15,127 --> 00:37:18,447
Speaker 2: fact that there is upsetting stuff happening, But I also

752
00:37:18,607 --> 00:37:22,247
Speaker 2: fully understand that for some people having the access to

753
00:37:22,287 --> 00:37:24,887
Speaker 2: the information about what they're about to see walk into

754
00:37:24,967 --> 00:37:26,927
Speaker 2: whether or not they want to relive that worse moment,

755
00:37:27,207 --> 00:37:29,527
Speaker 2: it's fine for them to ask for that too, And

756
00:37:29,567 --> 00:37:31,927
Speaker 2: it's fine for organizations to provide that as long as

757
00:37:31,927 --> 00:37:33,847
Speaker 2: they're not beating everybody else over the head with it.

758
00:37:33,887 --> 00:37:34,807
Speaker 2: I think it's fine.

759
00:37:37,247 --> 00:37:40,567
Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mummya

760
00:37:40,607 --> 00:37:44,087
Speaker 3: out Loud just for Mummy A subscribers. Follow the link

761
00:37:44,087 --> 00:37:46,207
Speaker 3: in the show notes to get your daily doseph out

762
00:37:46,207 --> 00:37:49,527
Speaker 3: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

763
00:37:56,687 --> 00:38:00,687
Speaker 3: Chapel Roan, who until three seconds ago I called Chappelle Rowan,

764
00:38:01,487 --> 00:38:04,167
Speaker 3: wants her fans to know that asking for selfie is

765
00:38:04,207 --> 00:38:07,807
Speaker 3: creepy and weird. If you're like, wait, hang on, who

766
00:38:07,927 --> 00:38:10,607
Speaker 3: is chapel Roan like me?

767
00:38:10,727 --> 00:38:11,207
Speaker 1: Well done?

768
00:38:11,367 --> 00:38:14,967
Speaker 3: Well. Maya recommended her music a few weeks ago. She's

769
00:38:14,967 --> 00:38:17,327
Speaker 3: a twenty six year old singer and songwriter who's blowing

770
00:38:17,367 --> 00:38:19,247
Speaker 3: up Maya. What are her songs that we would know?

771
00:38:19,927 --> 00:38:25,767
Speaker 1: Amazing, Pemenomenon which is amazing, Pink Pony Club, Hot to Go,

772
00:38:26,807 --> 00:38:30,807
Speaker 1: She's amazing. She's the most extraordinary singer songwriter, and she's

773
00:38:30,967 --> 00:38:32,607
Speaker 1: been doing this for a really long time. She was

774
00:38:32,647 --> 00:38:35,167
Speaker 1: dropped by her record company a few years ago because

775
00:38:35,167 --> 00:38:38,407
Speaker 1: she was like her music just wasn't hitting, but having

776
00:38:38,567 --> 00:38:41,807
Speaker 1: so many because she's brought a bit like Charlie Xylie

777
00:38:43,127 --> 00:38:45,287
Speaker 1: More fame before. It's her moment. She's put out an

778
00:38:45,287 --> 00:38:48,487
Speaker 1: album that just sounds different. She's got an image. She

779
00:38:48,567 --> 00:38:51,247
Speaker 1: kind of dresses in this sort of scary, sexy way.

780
00:38:51,767 --> 00:38:55,567
Speaker 1: She says she's inspired by how drag Queen's dress. She's queer.

781
00:38:56,007 --> 00:38:59,167
Speaker 1: All her clips and her songs are about you know,

782
00:39:00,127 --> 00:39:01,887
Speaker 1: and drugs and rock and roll, but between two women,

783
00:39:01,967 --> 00:39:05,247
Speaker 1: and it's just she's incredibly cool and her music's fantastic.

784
00:39:05,287 --> 00:39:07,727
Speaker 2: I've been loving her and also loving the irony that

785
00:39:07,767 --> 00:39:10,407
Speaker 2: I've been like all her as in my a's while

786
00:39:10,407 --> 00:39:13,767
Speaker 2: I'm doing my gardening in the suburbs. Those songs are

787
00:39:13,807 --> 00:39:15,887
Speaker 2: all about getting wasted and having loads of all sex,

788
00:39:15,887 --> 00:39:18,607
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, plant those tomatoes.

789
00:39:18,727 --> 00:39:19,767
Speaker 9: Whoat to go.

790
00:39:20,287 --> 00:39:23,567
Speaker 3: She's become very, very famous, quite quickly, and this week

791
00:39:23,607 --> 00:39:26,567
Speaker 3: she posted two videos on her TikTok, which has more

792
00:39:26,607 --> 00:39:29,287
Speaker 3: than three million followers, and here's what she said.

793
00:39:29,607 --> 00:39:35,327
Speaker 9: I don't care that abuse, in harassment, stalking, whatever is

794
00:39:35,367 --> 00:39:39,527
Speaker 9: a normal thing to do two people who are famous

795
00:39:39,887 --> 00:39:42,847
Speaker 9: or a little famous whatever. I don't care that it's normal.

796
00:39:42,887 --> 00:39:47,287
Speaker 10: I don't care that this crazy type of behavior comes

797
00:39:47,287 --> 00:39:51,407
Speaker 10: along with the job, the career field I've chosen. That

798
00:39:51,487 --> 00:39:53,487
Speaker 10: does not make it okay. That doesn't make it normal.

799
00:39:53,727 --> 00:39:55,567
Speaker 10: It doesn't mean I want it, doesn't mean that I

800
00:39:55,687 --> 00:39:59,487
Speaker 10: like it. I don't want whatever the fuck you think

801
00:39:59,767 --> 00:40:01,567
Speaker 10: you're supposed to be entitled to.

802
00:40:01,647 --> 00:40:03,647
Speaker 1: Whenever you see a celebrity, I'll go fuck.

803
00:40:03,687 --> 00:40:04,287
Speaker 3: If you think it's.

804
00:40:04,207 --> 00:40:07,447
Speaker 10: Selfish for me to say no for a photo or

805
00:40:07,487 --> 00:40:11,367
Speaker 10: for your time, or to you're a hug, that's not normal,

806
00:40:11,487 --> 00:40:12,207
Speaker 10: that's weird.

807
00:40:12,407 --> 00:40:13,927
Speaker 1: Sweety's not going well with fame.

808
00:40:14,727 --> 00:40:17,247
Speaker 3: She's struggling a little bit with faith. Yeah, recently she

809
00:40:17,327 --> 00:40:18,807
Speaker 3: was on stage and she had a bit of a

810
00:40:18,847 --> 00:40:20,967
Speaker 3: breakdown on stage, and she said, this has all happened

811
00:40:21,007 --> 00:40:25,007
Speaker 3: very quickly, and I'm overwhelmed. The response to these videos

812
00:40:25,047 --> 00:40:27,767
Speaker 3: has been predictably mixed. Here are some of the comments.

813
00:40:28,087 --> 00:40:30,447
Speaker 3: Someone said she just wants people to respect her boundaries.

814
00:40:30,487 --> 00:40:30,847
Speaker 1: That's it.

815
00:40:31,327 --> 00:40:34,327
Speaker 3: Another said just got her first hit and is already

816
00:40:34,367 --> 00:40:36,687
Speaker 3: saying no to taking pictures with fans. She must think

817
00:40:36,687 --> 00:40:40,087
Speaker 3: she's Beyonce, and another said I have no sympathy for

818
00:40:40,127 --> 00:40:42,967
Speaker 3: someone putting themselves out there with the help of fan support,

819
00:40:43,287 --> 00:40:46,367
Speaker 3: yet acts hostile when someone asks her for a photo.

820
00:40:46,647 --> 00:40:48,847
Speaker 1: Ooh, it's hard, isn't it.

821
00:40:48,927 --> 00:40:50,927
Speaker 3: Is it okay to ask a celebrity for a selfie?

822
00:40:53,407 --> 00:40:56,087
Speaker 1: Look, having just been at the Logis, I need to

823
00:40:56,087 --> 00:41:00,607
Speaker 1: take a couple of celebrities with costas the gardening and

824
00:41:00,607 --> 00:41:03,007
Speaker 1: I'd never do it, though I know I never did it.

825
00:41:03,047 --> 00:41:04,607
Speaker 1: I just did it on the Logis because I needed

826
00:41:04,647 --> 00:41:09,567
Speaker 1: to make content, but I never would because this is

827
00:41:09,567 --> 00:41:13,687
Speaker 1: the world's least relatable problem. We get asked selfies sometimes

828
00:41:14,367 --> 00:41:18,727
Speaker 1: and we are not Chapel roone. But sometimes it's so fine.

829
00:41:19,407 --> 00:41:22,847
Speaker 1: Other times it can feel like you're just walking around

830
00:41:22,887 --> 00:41:25,007
Speaker 1: the world like you're just the normal person that you are.

831
00:41:25,087 --> 00:41:27,767
Speaker 1: As Chapel rone Is, we all kind of think that

832
00:41:27,807 --> 00:41:30,567
Speaker 1: we're walking around the world anonymous, but then when someone says,

833
00:41:30,687 --> 00:41:33,047
Speaker 1: can I have a selfie? It kind of punctures your

834
00:41:33,927 --> 00:41:36,807
Speaker 1: feelings of privacy even though you're in public. It's weird.

835
00:41:36,847 --> 00:41:39,607
Speaker 1: I mean, having said that, out Louders we don't mind it.

836
00:41:39,727 --> 00:41:42,927
Speaker 1: We honestly don't, because we're not Chapel Roone. But she's

837
00:41:43,207 --> 00:41:45,687
Speaker 1: clearly wrestling with not being able to leave her house.

838
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,487
Speaker 3: I agree, I don't mind it because it doesn't happen

839
00:41:49,647 --> 00:41:50,847
Speaker 3: all that often, and.

840
00:41:50,807 --> 00:41:53,407
Speaker 1: Out Louders is always so respectful and so lovely.

841
00:41:53,487 --> 00:41:55,127
Speaker 3: And I think there's something about we speak on a

842
00:41:55,127 --> 00:41:57,207
Speaker 3: podcast and people come up and they are like, hey,

843
00:41:57,247 --> 00:41:58,927
Speaker 3: it's my friend, and I'm like, oh, you're an out louder.

844
00:41:58,927 --> 00:42:01,447
Speaker 3: You're probably my friend. You know who I am. You

845
00:42:01,527 --> 00:42:04,327
Speaker 3: know what my perspective is on things. I can spot

846
00:42:04,327 --> 00:42:06,247
Speaker 3: an out louder from a mile away because of the

847
00:42:06,327 --> 00:42:09,567
Speaker 3: type of person they are. The issue when you're a

848
00:42:09,567 --> 00:42:12,087
Speaker 3: singer like this, where people don't know who she is,

849
00:42:12,167 --> 00:42:14,887
Speaker 3: They just know her music, and so she's an artist

850
00:42:15,007 --> 00:42:19,887
Speaker 3: putting out this work, she has mass appeal. I imagine

851
00:42:19,887 --> 00:42:21,487
Speaker 3: that when you are that level of fame as well.

852
00:42:21,527 --> 00:42:23,327
Speaker 3: There are a lot of people on the internet who

853
00:42:23,367 --> 00:42:26,207
Speaker 3: hate you, so there's an element of being terrified when

854
00:42:26,247 --> 00:42:28,727
Speaker 3: you're outside. But it used to be that people would

855
00:42:28,727 --> 00:42:31,567
Speaker 3: ask for an autograph, which is quite a separate, like

856
00:42:31,727 --> 00:42:34,607
Speaker 3: physically separate thing, right. It might be that they give

857
00:42:34,607 --> 00:42:36,367
Speaker 3: you a piece of paper, or can you sign this?

858
00:42:36,927 --> 00:42:40,767
Speaker 3: A selfie is incredibly intimate, and if you're doing that

859
00:42:41,247 --> 00:42:44,327
Speaker 3: with one hundred people a day, that would take something

860
00:42:44,847 --> 00:42:49,887
Speaker 3: from you and I'm not sure how you politely decline.

861
00:42:50,087 --> 00:42:51,727
Speaker 3: That would be a hard thing to do, especially as

862
00:42:51,727 --> 00:42:52,087
Speaker 3: a woman.

863
00:42:52,327 --> 00:42:56,647
Speaker 2: I think that we used to have a basic sort

864
00:42:56,647 --> 00:42:58,647
Speaker 2: of deal that we thought this is what we were

865
00:42:58,687 --> 00:43:01,647
Speaker 2: paying the famous people for, you know, like there's a cliche.

866
00:43:01,647 --> 00:43:03,087
Speaker 2: I'm sure I've said it before. We say all the

867
00:43:03,087 --> 00:43:05,487
Speaker 2: time in gossip bags. I can't imagine why we used

868
00:43:05,527 --> 00:43:06,607
Speaker 2: to justify.

869
00:43:07,247 --> 00:43:09,207
Speaker 3: Talking celebrities in this way.

870
00:43:09,047 --> 00:43:12,247
Speaker 2: But we'd be like, Brad Pitt doesn't get paid twenty

871
00:43:12,287 --> 00:43:14,527
Speaker 2: million a movie because he's the best actor in the world.

872
00:43:14,567 --> 00:43:17,407
Speaker 2: You get paid twenty million a movie for the inconvenience

873
00:43:17,447 --> 00:43:19,407
Speaker 2: of being that famous in a way, right, That was

874
00:43:19,487 --> 00:43:21,327
Speaker 2: kind of this assumption that there's a bit of a

875
00:43:21,327 --> 00:43:24,127
Speaker 2: deal going on here, the privilege and the money and

876
00:43:24,367 --> 00:43:25,727
Speaker 2: the because pea.

877
00:43:25,647 --> 00:43:27,807
Speaker 1: Cost of that, like you you've got fans. Like if

878
00:43:27,847 --> 00:43:29,767
Speaker 1: you don't have fans and no one wants to come

879
00:43:29,807 --> 00:43:32,687
Speaker 1: and see you movie, you're by your album, you can't

880
00:43:32,727 --> 00:43:33,447
Speaker 1: be successful.

881
00:43:33,527 --> 00:43:35,847
Speaker 2: But I think that the Internet has changed all that,

882
00:43:35,927 --> 00:43:39,327
Speaker 2: as you say, Jesse, in terms of the scale and selfies.

883
00:43:39,647 --> 00:43:43,407
Speaker 2: But also Chapel Roan is gen Z and gen Z

884
00:43:43,647 --> 00:43:47,127
Speaker 2: are very good at boundaries. They don't give a fuck

885
00:43:47,167 --> 00:43:50,287
Speaker 2: if their boundaries make you uncomfortable, and they don't see

886
00:43:50,327 --> 00:43:52,607
Speaker 2: it as a price of privilege of success. She's like,

887
00:43:52,967 --> 00:43:54,567
Speaker 2: this is what I've chosen to do for a job.

888
00:43:54,767 --> 00:43:56,447
Speaker 2: It doesn't give you the right to interrupt me in

889
00:43:56,487 --> 00:43:58,087
Speaker 2: the street. It doesn't give you the right to be

890
00:43:58,167 --> 00:44:01,567
Speaker 2: creepy towards me. And these are my boundaries. Obviously, as

891
00:44:01,607 --> 00:44:03,727
Speaker 2: me has already made very clear, we are not Chapel

892
00:44:03,807 --> 00:44:06,847
Speaker 2: Rone But I'm quite needy. So I love it when

893
00:44:06,847 --> 00:44:09,847
Speaker 2: people come up and say I listened to out because

894
00:44:10,047 --> 00:44:12,047
Speaker 2: I'm kind of you know, I'm like, oh, they like

895
00:44:12,087 --> 00:44:12,487
Speaker 2: what I do.

896
00:44:12,527 --> 00:44:14,647
Speaker 1: That feels great. I have been known to grab something

897
00:44:14,687 --> 00:44:16,087
Speaker 1: that's fine and say do you want a selfie and

898
00:44:16,127 --> 00:44:16,567
Speaker 1: they're like, no.

899
00:44:16,647 --> 00:44:21,007
Speaker 2: Thing, no thanks. But I totally understand the scale of

900
00:44:21,047 --> 00:44:23,687
Speaker 2: this and also that boundaries are being redrawn, Like if

901
00:44:23,727 --> 00:44:25,687
Speaker 2: you think about how Sia always used to hide under

902
00:44:25,687 --> 00:44:28,567
Speaker 2: the wig. In a way, Chapel roone is better off

903
00:44:28,567 --> 00:44:31,727
Speaker 2: if she keeps wearing the She sort of wears almost

904
00:44:31,847 --> 00:44:34,607
Speaker 2: garga like disguise is on stage, So I'm not convinced

905
00:44:34,647 --> 00:44:36,047
Speaker 2: I would know her if I walk past her in

906
00:44:36,087 --> 00:44:39,327
Speaker 2: the street, because like, that's why that's a really good idea.

907
00:44:39,927 --> 00:44:42,807
Speaker 3: I wonder if too the social media element, because I

908
00:44:42,887 --> 00:44:48,207
Speaker 3: follow my mum, my cousin, and roan on social media.

909
00:44:48,247 --> 00:44:50,647
Speaker 3: They all pop up as though they're like the same.

910
00:44:51,687 --> 00:44:54,847
Speaker 3: So then when I see someone really famous in real life,

911
00:44:54,847 --> 00:44:56,447
Speaker 3: I'm often like, hey, I know you.

912
00:44:56,567 --> 00:44:58,407
Speaker 1: It kept happening to me at the logis.

913
00:44:58,247 --> 00:44:59,807
Speaker 3: Yes, and so you go.

914
00:44:59,687 --> 00:45:02,487
Speaker 1: To That's also what a parasocial relationship.

915
00:45:02,007 --> 00:45:05,327
Speaker 3: Is exactly whereas if I saw Jennifer Aniston, I'd be

916
00:45:05,367 --> 00:45:07,127
Speaker 3: a lot less likely to go and ask her for

917
00:45:07,167 --> 00:45:09,767
Speaker 3: a selfie because she's just in the printed man magazines,

918
00:45:10,127 --> 00:45:13,087
Speaker 3: so there's less of a parasocial relationship. I wonder if

919
00:45:13,087 --> 00:45:17,127
Speaker 3: there's more kind of ownership over people when we know

920
00:45:17,207 --> 00:45:17,807
Speaker 3: them from the nipe.

921
00:45:17,807 --> 00:45:19,967
Speaker 1: I also think you write both of you in that

922
00:45:20,167 --> 00:45:22,127
Speaker 1: we are ourselves on this show. So when people go

923
00:45:22,167 --> 00:45:23,567
Speaker 1: I feel like I know you, it's like, well, you

924
00:45:23,607 --> 00:45:25,687
Speaker 1: do know us, because this is who we are, and

925
00:45:25,687 --> 00:45:27,167
Speaker 1: you know us really well, and we feel like we

926
00:45:27,207 --> 00:45:29,447
Speaker 1: know you because if you listen to this show, you're

927
00:45:29,447 --> 00:45:32,207
Speaker 1: of a certain type. I think what Chapel Roane's no

928
00:45:32,327 --> 00:45:36,007
Speaker 1: doubt dealing with is issues around security because you said

929
00:45:36,047 --> 00:45:39,527
Speaker 1: before Jesse about the intimacy of a selfie when someone

930
00:45:39,607 --> 00:45:41,567
Speaker 1: takes a selfie with you, because you need to be

931
00:45:41,647 --> 00:45:44,767
Speaker 1: quite close together. They'll touch you, so they'll put their

932
00:45:44,847 --> 00:45:47,487
Speaker 1: arm around you, they might put their arm around your waist,

933
00:45:48,127 --> 00:45:50,407
Speaker 1: they'll breathe on you. And it's also they'll be very

934
00:45:50,487 --> 00:45:52,487
Speaker 1: quick because they won't want you to say no, and

935
00:45:52,727 --> 00:45:54,847
Speaker 1: in defense they'll want it, not want in truth. So

936
00:45:54,887 --> 00:45:57,087
Speaker 1: I imagine it's like, yeah, can I just take a

937
00:45:57,087 --> 00:45:59,967
Speaker 1: selfie and then just stand there And she's probably like

938
00:46:00,287 --> 00:46:02,767
Speaker 1: looking up and we don't have images, we don't care.

939
00:46:02,847 --> 00:46:05,887
Speaker 1: But she's a performer who has a particular way she

940
00:46:05,927 --> 00:46:09,487
Speaker 1: wants to put herself across and this idea instead same

941
00:46:09,487 --> 00:46:11,567
Speaker 1: as paparazzi if someone takes a photo with you without

942
00:46:11,607 --> 00:46:14,447
Speaker 1: your permission, and I've seen this happen to celebrities, where

943
00:46:14,447 --> 00:46:16,247
Speaker 1: people go, can I have a selfie and they've already

944
00:46:16,447 --> 00:46:19,447
Speaker 1: stood there next to you, taken the selfie before you

945
00:46:19,447 --> 00:46:20,967
Speaker 1: can even say anything or.

946
00:46:21,007 --> 00:46:22,767
Speaker 2: So the scale of it would make it very hard

947
00:46:22,807 --> 00:46:25,047
Speaker 2: to live your life. And I'm sure what's happened to her,

948
00:46:25,127 --> 00:46:27,247
Speaker 2: as you pointed out at the beginning, MEA, is that

949
00:46:27,287 --> 00:46:31,767
Speaker 2: she is really reeling from how famous she's become very fast.

950
00:46:32,087 --> 00:46:34,647
Speaker 2: She was probably just a few months ago able to

951
00:46:34,687 --> 00:46:36,767
Speaker 2: walk down the street in Brooklyn or be in a

952
00:46:36,847 --> 00:46:39,807
Speaker 2: nightclub with her mates, and suddenly that's been taken from

953
00:46:39,847 --> 00:46:43,487
Speaker 2: you because of course, like I don't understand it because

954
00:46:43,527 --> 00:46:46,007
Speaker 2: I'm not that famous. But it's lovely to have someone

955
00:46:46,007 --> 00:46:47,487
Speaker 2: come up to you and say I love what you do,

956
00:46:47,687 --> 00:46:49,807
Speaker 2: thank you for the thing you make. But it would

957
00:46:49,847 --> 00:46:52,327
Speaker 2: be completely different to feel that every way you went,

958
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:55,767
Speaker 2: everybody was staring at you, looking at everything you were doing,

959
00:46:55,927 --> 00:46:58,487
Speaker 2: clocking every move you were making, and actually making it

960
00:46:58,527 --> 00:47:00,807
Speaker 2: impossible for you to live your life. So I feel

961
00:47:00,847 --> 00:47:03,407
Speaker 2: for her what I worry about with this video though,

962
00:47:04,687 --> 00:47:07,047
Speaker 2: is it going to help like the people who love her.

963
00:47:07,527 --> 00:47:09,727
Speaker 2: I don't know what we call chapel roone. I don't

964
00:47:09,727 --> 00:47:11,687
Speaker 2: think they've got like a Swiss tag or anything, have they.

965
00:47:11,727 --> 00:47:14,087
Speaker 2: But the people who love her will respect this, and

966
00:47:14,127 --> 00:47:15,927
Speaker 2: they will like police each other. But there will be

967
00:47:15,967 --> 00:47:18,327
Speaker 2: a lot of people who will be very irritated by this,

968
00:47:18,367 --> 00:47:20,727
Speaker 2: as was evidence in the comments that you read out before, Jesse,

969
00:47:21,167 --> 00:47:23,087
Speaker 2: and it might actually make it worse for her.

970
00:47:23,367 --> 00:47:26,047
Speaker 3: That's true. I saw a lot of people reposting it

971
00:47:26,087 --> 00:47:29,207
Speaker 3: as well, famous people sort of reposting it, So I

972
00:47:29,207 --> 00:47:31,527
Speaker 3: wonder if it could signal a bit of a shift,

973
00:47:31,567 --> 00:47:33,647
Speaker 3: and it made me think. I had an experience recently

974
00:47:34,127 --> 00:47:37,687
Speaker 3: where I was at a cafe with my daughter and

975
00:47:37,847 --> 00:47:40,007
Speaker 3: a friend and we were just sitting there having a chat.

976
00:47:40,367 --> 00:47:42,087
Speaker 3: Do you know when you just feel a bit like

977
00:47:42,127 --> 00:47:43,967
Speaker 3: someone's watching you? And I turn around and there was

978
00:47:44,007 --> 00:47:47,047
Speaker 3: a group of women behind us. One of them had

979
00:47:47,087 --> 00:47:49,847
Speaker 3: got her phone out and started filming me, Like I

980
00:47:49,847 --> 00:47:52,567
Speaker 3: could see that she was filming me. Now, why was

981
00:47:52,607 --> 00:47:54,407
Speaker 3: she doing that? She was probably going, oh weird, I

982
00:47:54,447 --> 00:47:55,887
Speaker 3: was just listening to a podcast and blah bah blah.

983
00:47:55,887 --> 00:47:57,807
Speaker 3: Maybe she didn't want to interrupt. Yeah, but I was

984
00:47:57,847 --> 00:48:01,687
Speaker 3: sitting there with my daughter having a private conversation being filmed,

985
00:48:02,287 --> 00:48:07,127
Speaker 3: and it felt like such an invasion of privacy. I

986
00:48:07,207 --> 00:48:10,967
Speaker 3: really felt, and I didn't I'm not a confrontational person.

987
00:48:12,007 --> 00:48:15,847
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have said anything to them. But if you're

988
00:48:15,927 --> 00:48:18,927
Speaker 3: this level, there's one thing coming up and asking for selfie,

989
00:48:18,927 --> 00:48:22,367
Speaker 3: and then there's people. It's not paparazzi anymore. It is

990
00:48:22,687 --> 00:48:26,127
Speaker 3: everyone getting their phone and just taking photos of with chaperone.

991
00:48:26,167 --> 00:48:28,207
Speaker 1: She also has a particular persona on stage and in

992
00:48:28,247 --> 00:48:30,847
Speaker 1: her music and in her film clips, which is very sexual,

993
00:48:31,127 --> 00:48:33,647
Speaker 1: very out there, like as you say, it's like awesome

994
00:48:33,887 --> 00:48:39,207
Speaker 1: and just big and very sexually confident. And that's not

995
00:48:39,247 --> 00:48:42,967
Speaker 1: necessarily who you want to be when you're at the doctor,

996
00:48:43,047 --> 00:48:46,327
Speaker 1: in the waiting room or buying milk. And I think

997
00:48:46,367 --> 00:48:49,367
Speaker 1: sometimes people like to think of famous people. If you're famous,

998
00:48:49,487 --> 00:48:51,967
Speaker 1: you don't do all of that stuff. You've got all

999
00:48:52,007 --> 00:48:54,127
Speaker 1: these people who do it for you. But she still

1000
00:48:54,167 --> 00:48:55,967
Speaker 1: has to go through airports, she still has to go

1001
00:48:56,007 --> 00:48:59,087
Speaker 1: and buy toilet paper. You know, maybe she's got an assistant,

1002
00:48:59,127 --> 00:49:01,647
Speaker 1: But you unless you just live in a room alone,

1003
00:49:01,887 --> 00:49:04,967
Speaker 1: you do interact with people in the regular world, but

1004
00:49:05,487 --> 00:49:08,487
Speaker 1: you can see, like most people, it comes up a

1005
00:49:08,527 --> 00:49:11,247
Speaker 1: bit more slow. I think what the Internet does as

1006
00:49:11,287 --> 00:49:14,447
Speaker 1: well now is that the level of fame is so instantaneous.

1007
00:49:14,487 --> 00:49:16,927
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine how ray Gun's feeling at the moment.

1008
00:49:17,567 --> 00:49:20,567
Speaker 1: And I think Chapel Royin's really grappling with these two

1009
00:49:20,607 --> 00:49:23,967
Speaker 1: sides of things. She loves performing. She's an incredible artist,

1010
00:49:24,767 --> 00:49:27,167
Speaker 1: but she didn't sign up for that. And I think

1011
00:49:27,207 --> 00:49:29,527
Speaker 1: it's also be careful what you wish for, because everybody

1012
00:49:29,527 --> 00:49:31,327
Speaker 1: wants to be that famous until you are that.

1013
00:49:31,567 --> 00:49:33,407
Speaker 2: And I think that once you get to the level

1014
00:49:33,447 --> 00:49:36,087
Speaker 2: of a Taylor Swift or whatever, you've got a machine

1015
00:49:36,127 --> 00:49:38,487
Speaker 2: around you you figure out, oh, you know, you've had

1016
00:49:38,527 --> 00:49:40,567
Speaker 2: time to figure out how to be in the world,

1017
00:49:40,567 --> 00:49:42,007
Speaker 2: where you can go, where you can't go, how it

1018
00:49:42,047 --> 00:49:43,647
Speaker 2: all works, how you get into places, how you get

1019
00:49:43,687 --> 00:49:46,007
Speaker 2: out of places, all of those things. But when you're

1020
00:49:46,047 --> 00:49:49,167
Speaker 2: like a baby celebrity and suddenly it's all rushing at you,

1021
00:49:49,287 --> 00:49:50,647
Speaker 2: it must actually be very frightening.

1022
00:49:50,727 --> 00:49:53,687
Speaker 3: Stephen Colbert has a kind of quote about this where

1023
00:49:53,727 --> 00:49:56,527
Speaker 3: he says that you're walking down the street and someone

1024
00:49:56,607 --> 00:49:58,607
Speaker 3: comes up to you and knows you and has this

1025
00:49:58,647 --> 00:50:01,567
Speaker 3: familiarity and in a split second you need to meet

1026
00:50:01,607 --> 00:50:05,767
Speaker 3: them where they're at and meet their level of familiarity

1027
00:50:05,967 --> 00:50:09,847
Speaker 3: because to them you're not a stranger. To you, they

1028
00:50:09,887 --> 00:50:12,007
Speaker 3: are an absolute stranger and you have to try and

1029
00:50:12,687 --> 00:50:15,407
Speaker 3: meet them energetically. And I thought that was a really

1030
00:50:15,447 --> 00:50:18,327
Speaker 3: insightful way of looking at it, because you need to

1031
00:50:18,367 --> 00:50:22,047
Speaker 3: be overly familiar, overly polite. We're also at a time

1032
00:50:22,207 --> 00:50:24,367
Speaker 3: when if you're not, someone will jump on TikTok and

1033
00:50:24,367 --> 00:50:26,767
Speaker 3: say Stephen Colbert is a dick. It's a thing that

1034
00:50:26,927 --> 00:50:29,367
Speaker 3: her fans probably can't grapple with. How strange have.

1035
00:50:29,327 --> 00:50:31,007
Speaker 2: You ever done it? Like not at a work, not

1036
00:50:31,087 --> 00:50:33,607
Speaker 2: at like work thing, but like a civilian? Have you

1037
00:50:33,647 --> 00:50:35,807
Speaker 2: ever been a civilian who went and asked for selfie

1038
00:50:35,847 --> 00:50:36,007
Speaker 2: with it?

1039
00:50:36,127 --> 00:50:38,487
Speaker 3: So a few years ago I was at a cafe

1040
00:50:38,607 --> 00:50:42,087
Speaker 3: at Hamish Blake and Zoe were at the cafe and like,

1041
00:50:42,127 --> 00:50:44,567
Speaker 3: I love Hamish, I love Zoe, and I thought I'd

1042
00:50:44,647 --> 00:50:46,207
Speaker 3: love to be one of those people. But I just

1043
00:50:46,287 --> 00:50:47,847
Speaker 3: I looked at them at the cafe and what I

1044
00:50:47,887 --> 00:50:51,207
Speaker 3: love about Australia, people will leave you alone. They sat

1045
00:50:51,247 --> 00:50:54,487
Speaker 3: there in the corner, they got left alone. Hamish, who

1046
00:50:54,527 --> 00:50:56,567
Speaker 3: is very gracious. Who gets asked for a dollar or

1047
00:50:56,607 --> 00:50:59,447
Speaker 3: a bow or whatever a million times. I just thought

1048
00:50:59,487 --> 00:51:01,887
Speaker 3: that interaction would be exciting for me, It wouldn't be

1049
00:51:01,887 --> 00:51:03,847
Speaker 3: exciting for them, So I will just let them.

1050
00:51:03,687 --> 00:51:07,127
Speaker 1: Finish the who always does it? Brent? He would like,

1051
00:51:07,407 --> 00:51:08,367
Speaker 1: I mortified.

1052
00:51:08,407 --> 00:51:10,527
Speaker 2: I'd never do it it once with Adam Goods because

1053
00:51:10,527 --> 00:51:11,887
Speaker 2: I wanted my son to have a picture with him.

1054
00:51:11,887 --> 00:51:14,167
Speaker 2: But I literally did stop him at the beach. But

1055
00:51:14,967 --> 00:51:16,767
Speaker 2: anytime we see a famous liss and Brent's like, I'm

1056
00:51:16,807 --> 00:51:19,167
Speaker 2: gonna go, and I'm like, no, don't do that. It's

1057
00:51:19,207 --> 00:51:19,767
Speaker 2: so uncool.

1058
00:51:19,887 --> 00:51:21,447
Speaker 1: What does he do when he goes up to this?

1059
00:51:21,647 --> 00:51:24,207
Speaker 2: So Hugh Jackman we saw him at Bronze Beach once

1060
00:51:24,247 --> 00:51:26,087
Speaker 2: and it was years ago when he was also like

1061
00:51:26,247 --> 00:51:28,767
Speaker 2: really peak Wolverine, Like really, I mean I know he

1062
00:51:28,847 --> 00:51:30,847
Speaker 2: is again, but you know, Brent, I.

1063
00:51:30,847 --> 00:51:33,047
Speaker 1: Was like stop it, don't know, don't do and he

1064
00:51:33,167 --> 00:51:37,727
Speaker 1: was just like you, He's like that, he is always

1065
00:51:37,847 --> 00:51:40,727
Speaker 1: that guy. And I'm just like dying and he.

1066
00:51:40,967 --> 00:51:42,567
Speaker 2: And then he like points to me and goes she's

1067
00:51:42,567 --> 00:51:44,487
Speaker 2: too cool. Say hello, I'm not high.

1068
00:51:44,527 --> 00:51:45,807
Speaker 1: You love your movies up to that?

1069
00:51:45,887 --> 00:51:47,167
Speaker 9: Oh my god.

1070
00:51:47,047 --> 00:51:48,447
Speaker 3: How about you may or have you ever done it?

1071
00:51:48,567 --> 00:51:50,447
Speaker 1: I think, oh, have I done it? I feel like

1072
00:51:50,527 --> 00:51:52,287
Speaker 1: I have done it. I just can't think of when

1073
00:51:52,927 --> 00:51:54,927
Speaker 1: where you're just like I really need to tell this

1074
00:51:54,967 --> 00:51:58,087
Speaker 1: person how much they mean to me. Yeah, but at

1075
00:51:58,087 --> 00:52:00,767
Speaker 1: the Logi's on Sunday night, Mary Amd it was like,

1076
00:52:00,927 --> 00:52:03,407
Speaker 1: you know, it's so lovely all the people coming up

1077
00:52:03,407 --> 00:52:06,647
Speaker 1: to you and warning selfies and stuff, because usually when

1078
00:52:06,687 --> 00:52:09,327
Speaker 1: I'm in the street, people wind out they're window and

1079
00:52:09,367 --> 00:52:11,367
Speaker 1: go come on down your wanker.

1080
00:52:14,647 --> 00:52:17,407
Speaker 3: That's what I like about Australia speaking of people that

1081
00:52:17,447 --> 00:52:19,887
Speaker 3: are really really famous. In case you missed it, man

1082
00:52:19,967 --> 00:52:22,847
Speaker 3: went to the logan, so if you've wonder what that's like.

1083
00:52:22,887 --> 00:52:25,407
Speaker 3: We actually did a subscriber episode this week where Maya

1084
00:52:25,447 --> 00:52:28,327
Speaker 3: gave us all the behind the scenes goss, what the

1085
00:52:28,367 --> 00:52:30,807
Speaker 3: food was like, what happens in the ad breaks, if

1086
00:52:30,847 --> 00:52:34,407
Speaker 3: any celebrities drank too much, Maya does not hold back.

1087
00:52:34,527 --> 00:52:36,807
Speaker 3: There is a link to that episode in the show notes.

1088
00:52:37,167 --> 00:52:39,287
Speaker 2: A big thank you to all of you out louders

1089
00:52:39,327 --> 00:52:41,687
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show and being with us as

1090
00:52:41,687 --> 00:52:44,687
Speaker 2: you always are, and of course to our fabulous team

1091
00:52:44,727 --> 00:52:47,127
Speaker 2: for putting this show together. We will be back in

1092
00:52:47,207 --> 00:52:50,007
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow maybe with or without.

1093
00:52:49,767 --> 00:52:53,727
Speaker 1: A trigger warning. Bye, Hi, I'll take you.

1094
00:52:56,047 --> 00:52:58,887
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

1095
00:52:59,087 --> 00:53:01,927
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

1096
00:53:01,967 --> 00:53:04,407
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

1097
00:53:04,567 --> 00:53:06,447
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode of description