1
00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,382
Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,782
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

4
00:00:19,862 --> 00:00:21,302
Speaker 3: Can we talk about the licking of a hand?

5
00:00:21,582 --> 00:00:21,822
Speaker 4: Yes?

6
00:00:21,822 --> 00:00:24,982
Speaker 3: Make sure? Okay? Because I how much work can this get?

7
00:00:25,222 --> 00:00:28,621
Speaker 3: Spent the weekend asking men? I know about the licking

8
00:00:28,622 --> 00:00:30,622
Speaker 3: because I didn't know that we licked our hand. I

9
00:00:30,622 --> 00:00:31,822
Speaker 3: didn't know that that's what we did.

10
00:00:31,902 --> 00:00:34,622
Speaker 1: Didn't you hang out with your family? Yes?

11
00:00:34,662 --> 00:00:35,022
Speaker 3: I did.

12
00:00:38,142 --> 00:00:40,102
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia.

13
00:00:40,142 --> 00:00:40,582
Speaker 5: Out loud?

14
00:00:40,662 --> 00:00:43,702
Speaker 2: What women actually talking about on Monday, the second of June.

15
00:00:43,742 --> 00:00:47,022
Speaker 3: I'm Holly wayIn right, I'm Mia Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

16
00:00:47,262 --> 00:00:50,382
Speaker 2: And on the show today, all anyone's talking about is

17
00:00:50,462 --> 00:00:54,422
Speaker 2: Aiden's lick. I we are also talking about it and

18
00:00:54,462 --> 00:00:58,302
Speaker 2: the rise of fluff TV. Apparently there are five types

19
00:00:58,342 --> 00:01:00,822
Speaker 2: of angry women, and Debray Furness might be the patron

20
00:01:00,862 --> 00:01:03,942
Speaker 2: saint of all of them. And the handsome farmer with

21
00:01:03,982 --> 00:01:06,622
Speaker 2: a book deal who's felt the wrath of book talk?

22
00:01:07,062 --> 00:01:11,342
Speaker 2: But first, Miya who and the decade?

23
00:01:12,702 --> 00:01:16,021
Speaker 1: Perhaps you missed it. Taylor Swift is having a great year,

24
00:01:16,262 --> 00:01:18,702
Speaker 1: it continues. She can now say she owns all her

25
00:01:18,702 --> 00:01:21,982
Speaker 1: own music. And if you haven't been following this story,

26
00:01:22,022 --> 00:01:25,222
Speaker 1: you might assume that all music artists own their own songs,

27
00:01:25,222 --> 00:01:27,742
Speaker 1: but they actually really do. The masters, which is the

28
00:01:27,862 --> 00:01:31,742
Speaker 1: name for the actual recording, the final version of a

29
00:01:31,822 --> 00:01:35,542
Speaker 1: song that's released in an album or on Spotify or whatever,

30
00:01:36,182 --> 00:01:38,982
Speaker 1: that's owned by the record company that the artist is

31
00:01:39,022 --> 00:01:39,382
Speaker 1: signed to.

32
00:01:39,422 --> 00:01:42,342
Speaker 3: Yeah, say something like Universal or Sony or they own

33
00:01:42,342 --> 00:01:44,862
Speaker 3: it because they kind of paid for the production exactly.

34
00:01:44,942 --> 00:01:47,262
Speaker 1: So they're almost like in the same way that if

35
00:01:47,262 --> 00:01:51,622
Speaker 1: you work for any employer, they own what you create

36
00:01:51,862 --> 00:01:54,862
Speaker 1: during the time of your employment in most cases. And

37
00:01:54,902 --> 00:01:57,102
Speaker 1: that's the case for artists as well. So even if

38
00:01:57,102 --> 00:02:00,022
Speaker 1: you wrote the song, and Taylor writes a lot of

39
00:02:00,022 --> 00:02:01,902
Speaker 1: her songs, the version of the song that you listen

40
00:02:01,942 --> 00:02:05,382
Speaker 1: to on Spotify or buying an album belongs to the

41
00:02:05,382 --> 00:02:06,062
Speaker 1: record company.

42
00:02:06,102 --> 00:02:07,822
Speaker 3: So the artist gets a cut, but so does the

43
00:02:07,822 --> 00:02:08,382
Speaker 3: record company.

44
00:02:08,462 --> 00:02:10,462
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the record company get it's a much bigger cut,

45
00:02:10,462 --> 00:02:13,822
Speaker 1: and it also means that they have control over who

46
00:02:13,822 --> 00:02:17,821
Speaker 1: can use it in a movie or a commercial. And

47
00:02:17,902 --> 00:02:19,662
Speaker 1: as I said, they get most of the money every

48
00:02:19,662 --> 00:02:23,782
Speaker 1: time you listen. So in twenty nineteen, Taylor's Masters, though

49
00:02:23,862 --> 00:02:26,782
Speaker 1: the first six albums that she'd created all the way

50
00:02:26,902 --> 00:02:30,742
Speaker 1: up to reputation were bought by a guy called Scooter Braun.

51
00:02:31,022 --> 00:02:35,342
Speaker 1: He was a music manager, not someone who Taylor Swift

52
00:02:35,382 --> 00:02:39,102
Speaker 1: had a good relationship with. He paid three hundred million

53
00:02:39,142 --> 00:02:43,502
Speaker 1: dollars and she was really upset at the time because

54
00:02:43,542 --> 00:02:46,022
Speaker 1: she said she wanted the chance to buy them, but

55
00:02:46,662 --> 00:02:48,742
Speaker 1: the person who was selling them her record company, did

56
00:02:48,742 --> 00:02:51,902
Speaker 1: a deal straight away with Scooter Braun, and she was

57
00:02:51,982 --> 00:02:56,342
Speaker 1: absolutely devastated. This week, Taylor has brought them back for

58
00:02:56,382 --> 00:02:59,302
Speaker 1: an undisclosed amount which is said to be around the

59
00:02:59,382 --> 00:03:02,502
Speaker 1: same price, and you might say, surely it would be

60
00:03:02,542 --> 00:03:05,901
Speaker 1: worth so much more after the years tour, she's a

61
00:03:05,982 --> 00:03:08,862
Speaker 1: much bigger artist than she was in twenty nineteen. But

62
00:03:08,982 --> 00:03:12,742
Speaker 1: what happened is that when she lost the rights to

63
00:03:12,782 --> 00:03:15,222
Speaker 1: her masters and didn't get the chance to buy them,

64
00:03:15,262 --> 00:03:17,702
Speaker 1: she decided to re record all her albums one at

65
00:03:17,702 --> 00:03:20,222
Speaker 1: a time and re released them.

66
00:03:20,222 --> 00:03:23,061
Speaker 3: As Taylor's version. So all of her.

67
00:03:22,942 --> 00:03:25,902
Speaker 1: Fans, all the Swifties, stopped listening to the ogs and

68
00:03:25,942 --> 00:03:30,422
Speaker 1: started listening to these new releases, which really massively devalued

69
00:03:30,862 --> 00:03:34,302
Speaker 1: the value of her Masters. Scooter Braun then sold it

70
00:03:34,342 --> 00:03:36,822
Speaker 1: to a private equity firm who recently reached out to

71
00:03:36,862 --> 00:03:38,822
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift and said, do you want to buy them back?

72
00:03:38,862 --> 00:03:41,822
Speaker 1: We know how important it is to you, and she said,

73
00:03:41,862 --> 00:03:44,382
Speaker 1: she's very excited. So she released a letter saying she

74
00:03:44,462 --> 00:03:46,542
Speaker 1: never thought she'd be able to say it. She's thrilled.

75
00:03:46,582 --> 00:03:49,542
Speaker 1: They were very respectful in the transactions and happy days.

76
00:03:49,902 --> 00:03:53,342
Speaker 3: So she said, I think artists deserved to own their work.

77
00:03:53,382 --> 00:03:56,102
Speaker 3: That's something that she feels very passionately about. And I

78
00:03:56,142 --> 00:03:58,702
Speaker 3: think probably for people who you know, I don't know

79
00:03:58,782 --> 00:04:01,302
Speaker 3: much about the music industry, they don't understand that you

80
00:04:01,342 --> 00:04:04,102
Speaker 3: don't have full ownership. And even with I was thinking

81
00:04:04,102 --> 00:04:06,582
Speaker 3: of it comparing it to publishing, which I know a

82
00:04:06,582 --> 00:04:08,742
Speaker 3: little bit more about. We'll get into that a little

83
00:04:08,782 --> 00:04:12,862
Speaker 3: bit more late. But my books, I don't own my books.

84
00:04:12,982 --> 00:04:16,101
Speaker 3: They are owned by the publishing house. And for example,

85
00:04:16,101 --> 00:04:19,301
Speaker 3: if I wanted to replicate chapters of that, I would

86
00:04:19,342 --> 00:04:22,582
Speaker 3: probably need to speak to mission. I would need their permission.

87
00:04:22,622 --> 00:04:26,702
Speaker 3: And if a publishing house wanted to sell to a

88
00:04:26,821 --> 00:04:31,022
Speaker 3: mining company, then my IP, well it's not my IP,

89
00:04:31,262 --> 00:04:33,381
Speaker 3: it's not my intellectual property. But my work could be

90
00:04:33,421 --> 00:04:36,421
Speaker 3: owned by someone that I have some ethical issue with,

91
00:04:36,501 --> 00:04:38,981
Speaker 3: which is what happened to Taylor. It wasn't just that

92
00:04:39,022 --> 00:04:42,222
Speaker 3: someone else owned it, it was who owned it, and

93
00:04:42,262 --> 00:04:45,262
Speaker 3: they were someone who had worked with Kanye when Kanye

94
00:04:45,381 --> 00:04:49,821
Speaker 3: used the wax figure of her and had been really taunting,

95
00:04:49,902 --> 00:04:51,861
Speaker 3: and Justin Bieber had taunted her as well, and so

96
00:04:52,301 --> 00:04:54,302
Speaker 3: she felt like this person had no respect for her

97
00:04:54,421 --> 00:04:56,782
Speaker 3: and now owned all of her work. So I think

98
00:04:56,821 --> 00:04:59,581
Speaker 3: that that's critical to the story too. In case you

99
00:04:59,621 --> 00:05:02,581
Speaker 3: missed it, the most popular hairstyle of the last few

100
00:05:02,621 --> 00:05:05,941
Speaker 3: years is apparently causing women to lose their hair. The

101
00:05:05,981 --> 00:05:09,222
Speaker 3: slicked back bun, which is part of the clean girl

102
00:05:09,582 --> 00:05:15,861
Speaker 3: pathetic popularized by Hailey Biba, Zendea Selena GOMEZDIDS, has seen

103
00:05:16,061 --> 00:05:19,421
Speaker 3: women as young as twenty two left with bald patches.

104
00:05:19,782 --> 00:05:22,461
Speaker 3: So basically, do we all know what the sleepback bun is?

105
00:05:22,582 --> 00:05:24,822
Speaker 1: Well, it's fairly evident in the name. I don't none

106
00:05:24,821 --> 00:05:27,262
Speaker 1: of us a big wearers of a slipback bun't do it.

107
00:05:27,741 --> 00:05:30,541
Speaker 2: That can't make my hair be slick under any circumstances. Yeah, what,

108
00:05:31,222 --> 00:05:32,662
Speaker 2: why on earth would it make your hair for?

109
00:05:32,941 --> 00:05:35,862
Speaker 3: So what happens is the sleep back bun requires you

110
00:05:35,902 --> 00:05:38,782
Speaker 3: to often style it while wet, and you pull it

111
00:05:39,101 --> 00:05:41,981
Speaker 3: and then you do a low bun. But in order

112
00:05:42,022 --> 00:05:43,501
Speaker 3: for it to have you know how in a primary

113
00:05:43,541 --> 00:05:45,502
Speaker 3: school was all about no bumps, no bumps.

114
00:05:46,301 --> 00:05:48,381
Speaker 2: The little girls when they get their dancing hair done,

115
00:05:48,541 --> 00:05:50,142
Speaker 2: he doesn't bumps exactly.

116
00:05:50,381 --> 00:05:52,501
Speaker 3: So in order to have that, you've got to kind

117
00:05:52,501 --> 00:05:54,342
Speaker 3: of pull it right back and off and put gel in.

118
00:05:54,621 --> 00:05:56,861
Speaker 3: And the clean girl aesthetic as well is like you

119
00:05:56,941 --> 00:05:59,101
Speaker 3: kind of wear your hair at this every single day,

120
00:05:59,222 --> 00:06:02,101
Speaker 3: like that's how you're going about your life. And so

121
00:06:02,501 --> 00:06:06,582
Speaker 3: they've developed something called traction alopecia, which is hair loss

122
00:06:06,582 --> 00:06:10,541
Speaker 3: caused by repeated or prolonged tension of the hair too

123
00:06:10,621 --> 00:06:12,902
Speaker 3: much pulling, so it's like at the front you start

124
00:06:13,022 --> 00:06:17,261
Speaker 3: losing all of that. And experts have been warning about

125
00:06:17,301 --> 00:06:19,301
Speaker 3: this for a few years. They've said that if you

126
00:06:19,381 --> 00:06:21,101
Speaker 3: don't give your hair a break.

127
00:06:21,142 --> 00:06:23,262
Speaker 1: It's do you ever do a slipbackbund?

128
00:06:23,301 --> 00:06:26,462
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't. I always saw the size of my

129
00:06:26,501 --> 00:06:28,621
Speaker 3: forehead as a curse, right, I've thought about it for

130
00:06:28,621 --> 00:06:31,301
Speaker 3: a long time, but now I realize that it actually

131
00:06:31,301 --> 00:06:32,021
Speaker 3: has protected me.

132
00:06:32,142 --> 00:06:32,822
Speaker 5: It saved you.

133
00:06:32,902 --> 00:06:35,861
Speaker 3: It saved me from the tyranny of the sleep back bun,

134
00:06:36,462 --> 00:06:38,862
Speaker 3: because I could never have done it because there's too

135
00:06:38,981 --> 00:06:42,022
Speaker 3: much forehead and the shape of my face. Would never

136
00:06:42,061 --> 00:06:42,621
Speaker 3: pull it off.

137
00:06:42,981 --> 00:06:45,701
Speaker 1: Jlo does the best sleep backbone she does.

138
00:06:45,741 --> 00:06:48,182
Speaker 3: Have you ever, it feels like something you would be doing.

139
00:06:48,101 --> 00:06:51,141
Speaker 1: So I sometimes pull my hair off my face. I'm

140
00:06:51,301 --> 00:06:52,902
Speaker 1: also self conscious about my forehead.

141
00:06:52,981 --> 00:06:55,902
Speaker 3: So yeah, well there are rules now, So if you're

142
00:06:55,941 --> 00:06:57,702
Speaker 3: going to do your sleep back bun, don't do it

143
00:06:57,741 --> 00:07:00,342
Speaker 3: when we're that's the rule. And also when you go

144
00:07:00,381 --> 00:07:02,582
Speaker 3: to bed, you gotta have your hair out because otherwise

145
00:07:02,582 --> 00:07:04,142
Speaker 3: you're pulling let it breathe. You've got to let your

146
00:07:04,181 --> 00:07:06,462
Speaker 3: hair breathe otherwise you're gonna lose bit of hair at

147
00:07:06,462 --> 00:07:08,222
Speaker 3: the beginning. Not that there's anything wrong with baldness.

148
00:07:08,381 --> 00:07:11,742
Speaker 1: Would go to bed with a tight ponytail or anything.

149
00:07:11,941 --> 00:07:13,982
Speaker 2: They must say, I let my hair. I sleep in

150
00:07:13,982 --> 00:07:15,381
Speaker 2: the plats quite often.

151
00:07:15,422 --> 00:07:15,902
Speaker 1: Do you.

152
00:07:16,422 --> 00:07:18,222
Speaker 3: I sometimes pull my hair back because I don't like

153
00:07:18,262 --> 00:07:20,341
Speaker 3: to roll around and feel it like on my face.

154
00:07:20,422 --> 00:07:23,581
Speaker 2: Yea, there's still a lot of hair, you know, like

155
00:07:24,222 --> 00:07:25,662
Speaker 2: get it out of the way. And also if you

156
00:07:25,742 --> 00:07:28,662
Speaker 2: sleep in a plat, you've got waves in the morning out.

157
00:07:28,462 --> 00:07:30,942
Speaker 1: Loud as we're about to talk about, and just like that.

158
00:07:31,022 --> 00:07:34,102
Speaker 1: And you might have if you're paying close attention. Notice

159
00:07:34,102 --> 00:07:37,182
Speaker 1: that this episode is in fact sponsored by and just

160
00:07:37,262 --> 00:07:40,742
Speaker 1: like that, but this is not part of that sponsorship.

161
00:07:40,902 --> 00:07:42,702
Speaker 1: We decided to do this of.

162
00:07:42,702 --> 00:07:43,342
Speaker 3: Our own accord.

163
00:07:43,462 --> 00:07:45,302
Speaker 1: They don't know we're doing it, they don't have any

164
00:07:45,342 --> 00:07:46,222
Speaker 1: say in what we say.

165
00:07:46,342 --> 00:07:48,102
Speaker 3: We might have just realized that it was sponsored by

166
00:07:48,182 --> 00:07:49,622
Speaker 3: and just like that, we'll.

167
00:07:49,542 --> 00:07:52,782
Speaker 1: Carry we'll carry thing. This is very much. We want

168
00:07:52,821 --> 00:07:54,862
Speaker 1: to talk about it because it's part of the zeitgeist.

169
00:07:54,941 --> 00:07:59,262
Speaker 3: So it comes thinking I couldn't have interest.

170
00:08:02,782 --> 00:08:06,902
Speaker 1: We need to talk about the lickic We do because

171
00:08:06,941 --> 00:08:09,502
Speaker 1: it's really the only way to describe a very particular

172
00:08:09,821 --> 00:08:12,742
Speaker 1: scene in the new season, Evan, just like that. It

173
00:08:12,821 --> 00:08:15,182
Speaker 1: happened in episode one, which is the fallo up to

174
00:08:15,222 --> 00:08:17,182
Speaker 1: Sex and City side note, why can't it just be

175
00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:19,901
Speaker 1: called Sex and the City? I still don't understand.

176
00:08:19,542 --> 00:08:22,062
Speaker 2: Because it's a new universe. Maya have you not listened

177
00:08:22,062 --> 00:08:25,382
Speaker 2: to Daddy Michael Patrick King. It's a new show, it's

178
00:08:25,422 --> 00:08:26,502
Speaker 2: a new era, it's.

179
00:08:26,381 --> 00:08:28,941
Speaker 3: A new time. Get with it, Get with it, okay.

180
00:08:29,182 --> 00:08:32,302
Speaker 1: So we have done another episode that we dropped on

181
00:08:32,302 --> 00:08:34,302
Speaker 1: the weekend where we recap episode one.

182
00:08:34,342 --> 00:08:35,182
Speaker 3: That's not what this is.

183
00:08:35,862 --> 00:08:37,902
Speaker 1: Because in case you haven't got around to watching it

184
00:08:37,942 --> 00:08:42,422
Speaker 1: on Max. The lickic happens during a phone sex scene

185
00:08:42,462 --> 00:08:45,902
Speaker 1: between Carrie in her enormous New New York apartment and

186
00:08:45,982 --> 00:08:46,422
Speaker 1: her honor.

187
00:08:46,622 --> 00:08:48,062
Speaker 3: Would we call an apartment or would we call it

188
00:08:48,102 --> 00:08:49,582
Speaker 3: a Max? It's like a two story.

189
00:08:49,702 --> 00:08:52,622
Speaker 1: I know they keep calling it a Brownstone or an apartment.

190
00:08:52,662 --> 00:08:54,862
Speaker 1: I don't know how new it works. Her on off

191
00:08:54,902 --> 00:08:57,502
Speaker 1: love Interest is Aiden. He is sitting in his car

192
00:08:57,582 --> 00:09:00,542
Speaker 1: in a field in Virginia with a beer and his

193
00:09:00,622 --> 00:09:03,102
Speaker 1: hand down his pants. Here's a little bit about how

194
00:09:03,102 --> 00:09:03,742
Speaker 1: it sounded.

195
00:09:04,582 --> 00:09:07,742
Speaker 6: Touch yourself, Okhea, touch yourself?

196
00:09:07,822 --> 00:09:10,342
Speaker 1: Be me from me?

197
00:09:12,062 --> 00:09:13,142
Speaker 6: Are you touching yourself?

198
00:09:14,622 --> 00:09:14,782
Speaker 2: Oh?

199
00:09:14,822 --> 00:09:18,022
Speaker 1: This is just I can't I actually can't listen. He

200
00:09:18,142 --> 00:09:18,982
Speaker 1: licks his hand.

201
00:09:19,222 --> 00:09:20,662
Speaker 3: Can we talk about the licking of the hand?

202
00:09:21,142 --> 00:09:21,662
Speaker 5: Make sure?

203
00:09:21,942 --> 00:09:25,422
Speaker 3: Okay? Because I how much work this? Get spent the

204
00:09:25,462 --> 00:09:28,342
Speaker 3: weekend asking men I know about the licking because I

205
00:09:28,342 --> 00:09:30,382
Speaker 3: didn't know that we licked our hand. I didn't know

206
00:09:30,422 --> 00:09:31,222
Speaker 3: that that's what we did.

207
00:09:31,302 --> 00:09:32,542
Speaker 1: Didn't you hang out with your family?

208
00:09:33,822 --> 00:09:34,022
Speaker 6: Yes?

209
00:09:34,062 --> 00:09:36,582
Speaker 3: I did, And I don't understand because I was like

210
00:09:36,662 --> 00:09:39,422
Speaker 3: the men u's lube. Why did he need to lick

211
00:09:39,782 --> 00:09:42,182
Speaker 3: his hand in order to do that?

212
00:09:42,302 --> 00:09:45,822
Speaker 2: Surely you can work it out this is why very

213
00:09:45,822 --> 00:09:49,342
Speaker 2: often hand cream the bed before we leave.

214
00:09:49,422 --> 00:09:51,862
Speaker 1: Woman explained it, what did the men in your life

215
00:09:51,902 --> 00:09:52,261
Speaker 1: tell you?

216
00:09:52,822 --> 00:09:55,102
Speaker 3: One man in my life said, I don't know, I

217
00:09:55,142 --> 00:09:58,462
Speaker 3: don't understand, and I was like, okay, so I don't

218
00:09:58,542 --> 00:10:01,022
Speaker 3: I don't know if this is a very personal thing

219
00:10:01,182 --> 00:10:03,662
Speaker 3: that's going on, but it was the grunting for me.

220
00:10:04,022 --> 00:10:06,862
Speaker 3: It was definitely the lick of the hand so bad.

221
00:10:07,262 --> 00:10:09,662
Speaker 3: And it was I said in that episode that we

222
00:10:09,702 --> 00:10:12,222
Speaker 3: recorded about and just like that, that I find aiden

223
00:10:12,302 --> 00:10:14,902
Speaker 3: deeply on sexy. So that contributed to Mike.

224
00:10:15,022 --> 00:10:17,222
Speaker 1: I've always found him a bit soft. He's not my

225
00:10:17,342 --> 00:10:19,942
Speaker 1: type of person. And look, I think it's safe to

226
00:10:19,942 --> 00:10:23,102
Speaker 1: say a new level of ick was unlocked in that

227
00:10:23,182 --> 00:10:24,662
Speaker 1: scene and by this episode.

228
00:10:24,902 --> 00:10:27,862
Speaker 2: It's so funny because when we recorded our and just

229
00:10:27,982 --> 00:10:30,342
Speaker 2: like that recap, we were lucky enough to watch the

230
00:10:30,342 --> 00:10:33,261
Speaker 2: episodes a little bit early, and we hadn't seen the

231
00:10:33,262 --> 00:10:36,702
Speaker 2: public reaction to episode one yet, but it was very.

232
00:10:36,542 --> 00:10:38,182
Speaker 1: Similar to ours, yes.

233
00:10:38,862 --> 00:10:40,822
Speaker 3: Which was like what yeah?

234
00:10:40,862 --> 00:10:43,822
Speaker 2: And I did listen to what Michael Patrick King had

235
00:10:43,862 --> 00:10:45,502
Speaker 2: to say about it, and he said he wanted to

236
00:10:45,542 --> 00:10:49,222
Speaker 2: push aid and then carry to places that hadn't been before.

237
00:10:49,102 --> 00:10:51,382
Speaker 3: Which is difficult because I've been to a lot of places.

238
00:10:51,342 --> 00:10:54,582
Speaker 2: That Carrie has never really done the dirty talk in

239
00:10:54,622 --> 00:10:56,782
Speaker 2: that way before, and it was a whole new thing,

240
00:10:56,782 --> 00:10:58,422
Speaker 2: and I was like, do we have to break new

241
00:10:58,422 --> 00:10:59,462
Speaker 2: ground at this point?

242
00:10:59,742 --> 00:11:00,422
Speaker 3: Do we have to?

243
00:11:00,622 --> 00:11:03,302
Speaker 1: Well? The sound you can hear is the sound of

244
00:11:03,342 --> 00:11:06,702
Speaker 1: millions of women's legs just snapping shut. Yes, and their

245
00:11:06,782 --> 00:11:11,381
Speaker 1: vagina's shriveling up into deserts. Even thinking about that scene,

246
00:11:11,702 --> 00:11:15,142
Speaker 1: but scene aside, group chats and social and out louders

247
00:11:15,182 --> 00:11:17,582
Speaker 1: in all the groups and all the places, you're all

248
00:11:17,622 --> 00:11:22,502
Speaker 1: popping off with opinions about the show. It's cringe, it's fabulous, We're.

249
00:11:22,382 --> 00:11:24,502
Speaker 3: Appalled by the carrots, cringe and fabulous.

250
00:11:24,502 --> 00:11:26,381
Speaker 1: We're delighted to spend time with them again.

251
00:11:27,102 --> 00:11:28,822
Speaker 3: All of the about it's terrible. I can't wait for

252
00:11:28,862 --> 00:11:29,342
Speaker 3: next week.

253
00:11:29,502 --> 00:11:31,822
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think it's so polarizing?

254
00:11:32,702 --> 00:11:34,422
Speaker 2: I think you know, we've talked a lot about how

255
00:11:34,502 --> 00:11:36,502
Speaker 2: much we love these women and we love spending time

256
00:11:36,542 --> 00:11:38,542
Speaker 2: with them, but there is nothing they could ever do

257
00:11:38,742 --> 00:11:41,902
Speaker 2: that would make us happy. Because when you've got literally

258
00:11:41,982 --> 00:11:44,902
Speaker 2: twenty years of history with somebody, you've got a lot

259
00:11:44,902 --> 00:11:47,582
Speaker 2: of opinions about how they should behave. But I think

260
00:11:47,662 --> 00:11:52,142
Speaker 2: that despite everybody's varied opinions about this, this season is

261
00:11:52,142 --> 00:11:55,222
Speaker 2: going to be a hit because, without question, what we

262
00:11:55,262 --> 00:11:58,742
Speaker 2: are all in the mood for is some silly fun

263
00:11:59,102 --> 00:12:00,582
Speaker 2: look at a lot of the shows, with a few

264
00:12:00,742 --> 00:12:03,742
Speaker 2: very notable exceptions, like Adolescents, a lot of the big

265
00:12:03,782 --> 00:12:07,062
Speaker 2: shows in the last year have been fluffy, what we

266
00:12:07,102 --> 00:12:09,462
Speaker 2: would call fluffy. So even if they do have a

267
00:12:09,542 --> 00:12:13,942
Speaker 2: bit of darkness in them, they've been very camp, very colorful,

268
00:12:14,022 --> 00:12:16,422
Speaker 2: very funny. So I think White Loaders think the perfect couple,

269
00:12:16,542 --> 00:12:21,662
Speaker 2: think Sirens, which is what everybody's watching. Even I inhaled

270
00:12:21,662 --> 00:12:24,662
Speaker 2: that running point with Kate Hudson in it, I acknowledge

271
00:12:24,702 --> 00:12:26,942
Speaker 2: when I recommended it that I didn't necessarily think it

272
00:12:26,982 --> 00:12:29,462
Speaker 2: was particularly high quality, but it was exactly what I

273
00:12:29,502 --> 00:12:30,902
Speaker 2: was in the mood for. And I think there's two

274
00:12:30,942 --> 00:12:34,622
Speaker 2: things about this. One is, you know, there's no question

275
00:12:34,702 --> 00:12:37,782
Speaker 2: the world is dark and all of those things. Politics

276
00:12:37,822 --> 00:12:40,182
Speaker 2: is a very dangerous place to go at the moment,

277
00:12:40,302 --> 00:12:44,902
Speaker 2: particularly in America. Everybody's talking about polarization and how let's

278
00:12:44,942 --> 00:12:47,102
Speaker 2: just all talk about something else. You know, they even

279
00:12:47,102 --> 00:12:50,182
Speaker 2: cut some politics from White Loadus. Remember that, Yeah, they

280
00:12:50,302 --> 00:12:52,462
Speaker 2: got rid of a storyline about one of the characters

281
00:12:52,462 --> 00:12:55,542
Speaker 2: having a trans child, because I think that at the moment,

282
00:12:55,622 --> 00:12:58,342
Speaker 2: everybody's going we don't want to talk about anything serious.

283
00:12:58,662 --> 00:13:00,742
Speaker 2: We just want to watch the.

284
00:13:01,102 --> 00:13:02,822
Speaker 3: Beautiful houses have a laugh.

285
00:13:03,622 --> 00:13:06,822
Speaker 2: Argue about Aiden's penis is disgusting, why we should have

286
00:13:06,902 --> 00:13:08,542
Speaker 2: licked his hand, and where that.

287
00:13:08,462 --> 00:13:10,862
Speaker 1: Carry's hat is abs urge like that seems like a

288
00:13:10,902 --> 00:13:11,342
Speaker 1: safe thing.

289
00:13:11,382 --> 00:13:15,062
Speaker 3: Toot a bonnet. I just need to think about a

290
00:13:15,062 --> 00:13:16,862
Speaker 3: bonnet for a little while. I think it is the

291
00:13:16,982 --> 00:13:20,782
Speaker 3: re emergence of camp and this sort of nineties sensibility,

292
00:13:20,822 --> 00:13:24,342
Speaker 3: because there's also the rewatch phenomenon, and it's like going

293
00:13:24,382 --> 00:13:27,622
Speaker 3: back to your childhood home in a way where it

294
00:13:27,702 --> 00:13:30,542
Speaker 3: was simpler and when you were different. Going back to

295
00:13:30,582 --> 00:13:32,662
Speaker 3: these characters reminds me of who I was when I

296
00:13:32,702 --> 00:13:35,582
Speaker 3: watched it for the first time. And I was scrolling

297
00:13:35,622 --> 00:13:37,022
Speaker 3: the other day and there was a clip from the

298
00:13:37,022 --> 00:13:39,542
Speaker 3: show Felicity. Remember the show Felicity. I hadn't thought about

299
00:13:39,542 --> 00:13:42,182
Speaker 3: that in years, and I thought, oh, I'd love to

300
00:13:42,182 --> 00:13:43,622
Speaker 3: go back and watch that. Even the way it was

301
00:13:43,662 --> 00:13:47,141
Speaker 3: filmed it was so much softer. It was almost blurrier.

302
00:13:47,182 --> 00:13:50,862
Speaker 3: There was no high definition. The camera panning was different,

303
00:13:50,902 --> 00:13:53,702
Speaker 3: and I thought, Oh, that would be such a reprieve

304
00:13:53,902 --> 00:13:56,822
Speaker 3: to go back and watch that kind of comfort viewing.

305
00:13:57,142 --> 00:14:01,102
Speaker 1: Do you think it's also second screening. Every so often

306
00:14:01,142 --> 00:14:05,022
Speaker 1: the characters sort of re mention the plot, like restate

307
00:14:05,102 --> 00:14:09,382
Speaker 1: what's happening, almost like daytime soaps, you know that exactly

308
00:14:09,542 --> 00:14:12,182
Speaker 1: reality TV shows. And that's to account for the fact

309
00:14:12,182 --> 00:14:13,622
Speaker 1: that people are sort of looking at their phones and

310
00:14:13,662 --> 00:14:15,141
Speaker 1: then they'll look up and they still need to be

311
00:14:15,222 --> 00:14:16,982
Speaker 1: able to be following what's going along.

312
00:14:17,142 --> 00:14:20,462
Speaker 3: Yeah, and also you can predict what the next sentence is.

313
00:14:20,502 --> 00:14:20,582
Speaker 1: Like.

314
00:14:20,622 --> 00:14:23,342
Speaker 3: There are no surprises. Obviously there was big in the

315
00:14:23,382 --> 00:14:25,422
Speaker 3: first season, but other than that, there's not been any

316
00:14:25,502 --> 00:14:28,022
Speaker 3: high stake surprises. And I know that I.

317
00:14:28,022 --> 00:14:29,342
Speaker 1: Didn't think ROUNDA was going to fuck it out.

318
00:14:29,382 --> 00:14:31,062
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have had that on my big coat. Yeah,

319
00:14:31,102 --> 00:14:34,862
Speaker 3: but like it didn't change my week, you know, yeah, right,

320
00:14:35,022 --> 00:14:37,742
Speaker 3: and it changed my week. But there are two things

321
00:14:37,782 --> 00:14:41,182
Speaker 3: going on for the worst. You're right, there's like this

322
00:14:41,382 --> 00:14:43,822
Speaker 3: campy fluff. But then I think, if we're so fair

323
00:14:43,862 --> 00:14:44,222
Speaker 3: to call.

324
00:14:44,142 --> 00:14:45,582
Speaker 1: It fluff, that feels dismissive.

325
00:14:45,702 --> 00:14:47,902
Speaker 2: Okay, but I like fluff, so I don't think fluff

326
00:14:47,982 --> 00:14:50,182
Speaker 2: is dismissive. I think there's a place for everything. I mean,

327
00:14:50,262 --> 00:14:52,462
Speaker 2: people have never watched as many documentaries as they have

328
00:14:52,542 --> 00:14:55,062
Speaker 2: since streaming. Right, If you want to go and watch

329
00:14:55,182 --> 00:14:58,382
Speaker 2: something incredibly smart in depth, that's what Jesse is doing.

330
00:14:58,822 --> 00:15:01,462
Speaker 3: Yeah, I watch the documentary true crime.

331
00:15:01,222 --> 00:15:04,382
Speaker 2: Stuff, true crime stuff, anything you want about climate change,

332
00:15:04,382 --> 00:15:07,102
Speaker 2: about the state of the prison system, about anything you want.

333
00:15:07,142 --> 00:15:09,462
Speaker 2: It's there for you, right, And I think that's great.

334
00:15:09,902 --> 00:15:13,382
Speaker 2: But also I think there's a growing feeling of like,

335
00:15:13,582 --> 00:15:15,422
Speaker 2: when I just want to turn my brain off, it

336
00:15:15,422 --> 00:15:17,902
Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's bad, it doesn't mean it's terrible.

337
00:15:19,102 --> 00:15:24,462
Speaker 3: For those Every producer, publisher, everyone I speak to says,

338
00:15:24,502 --> 00:15:26,422
Speaker 3: the thing we're looking for right now are rom coms.

339
00:15:26,662 --> 00:15:28,902
Speaker 3: That's what everyone has been wanting for the last two years.

340
00:15:28,902 --> 00:15:31,822
Speaker 3: That's what they're seeking. On the other hand, though, let's

341
00:15:31,862 --> 00:15:34,022
Speaker 3: be honest about the biggest shows of twenty twenty five,

342
00:15:34,262 --> 00:15:37,862
Speaker 3: because it's adolescence. As you said, it's severance, it's the pit.

343
00:15:38,182 --> 00:15:41,422
Speaker 3: The Handmaid's Tail has just wrapped up. Even the White Lotus,

344
00:15:41,462 --> 00:15:43,942
Speaker 3: there was some darkness to that, like there is this

345
00:15:44,702 --> 00:15:49,182
Speaker 3: other side, which is like this prestige dark television that

346
00:15:49,262 --> 00:15:50,902
Speaker 3: is grappling with the intensity of our.

347
00:15:50,902 --> 00:15:53,142
Speaker 2: Top I think I agree, but I also think that

348
00:15:53,222 --> 00:15:55,742
Speaker 2: Prestige TV doesn't have to be dark, right, which is

349
00:15:55,742 --> 00:15:58,182
Speaker 2: what White loatus. I mean, it's always dealt with dark things.

350
00:15:58,382 --> 00:16:00,902
Speaker 2: It's a murder show from its first season, but it

351
00:16:01,022 --> 00:16:03,942
Speaker 2: does it in quite a light way, right, And I

352
00:16:03,942 --> 00:16:06,862
Speaker 2: think you're right, of course with adolescents and those shows,

353
00:16:06,902 --> 00:16:09,022
Speaker 2: but I think, I don't know. I think there's a

354
00:16:09,102 --> 00:16:13,302
Speaker 2: mood shift and it's to do with playing it safe

355
00:16:13,382 --> 00:16:15,942
Speaker 2: a little bit, but you can those shows can still

356
00:16:15,942 --> 00:16:16,622
Speaker 2: be high quality.

357
00:16:16,742 --> 00:16:19,422
Speaker 3: I heard it described Sirens and then just like that

358
00:16:19,542 --> 00:16:23,622
Speaker 3: as affluence porn because there's one perfect couple with definitely yeah,

359
00:16:23,782 --> 00:16:27,502
Speaker 3: because there's this self consciousness to obviously the White Lotus,

360
00:16:27,542 --> 00:16:29,982
Speaker 3: which is all about let's hate on rich people, but

361
00:16:30,062 --> 00:16:34,062
Speaker 3: this is almost like unashamed look at the bonnet, look

362
00:16:34,102 --> 00:16:36,222
Speaker 3: at the match, and look at her do this up.

363
00:16:36,502 --> 00:16:38,822
Speaker 3: I guess that's what selling Sunset is as well. It's

364
00:16:38,902 --> 00:16:43,622
Speaker 3: just like this escapism and maybe there's some aspiration behind.

365
00:16:43,182 --> 00:16:46,022
Speaker 1: Your recession indicator as well. Yep, Like the harder things

366
00:16:46,062 --> 00:16:49,422
Speaker 1: are in people's real lives, the more they want to escape,

367
00:16:49,542 --> 00:16:52,422
Speaker 1: and like little luxuries and little indulgences.

368
00:16:53,102 --> 00:16:56,502
Speaker 2: In a moment, did Debory Furness do angry women everywhere

369
00:16:56,502 --> 00:17:03,462
Speaker 2: a favor by putting Hugh Jackman on blast. Remember last

370
00:17:03,462 --> 00:17:05,982
Speaker 2: week we did a quick update on Hugh Jackman and

371
00:17:06,022 --> 00:17:09,061
Speaker 2: Debory Furnas's divorced. You remember that, Yeah, because it's just

372
00:17:09,142 --> 00:17:12,102
Speaker 2: been an ounced that they were finally divorced, that it.

373
00:17:12,022 --> 00:17:14,101
Speaker 1: Was done, and she released that statement to Daily Mail

374
00:17:14,141 --> 00:17:19,022
Speaker 1: and when we recorded, it seemed so out of character. Yeah,

375
00:17:19,101 --> 00:17:21,261
Speaker 1: and we actually didn't know if it was real or not,

376
00:17:21,381 --> 00:17:23,901
Speaker 1: so we were sort of a bit We're not quite sure.

377
00:17:24,141 --> 00:17:26,542
Speaker 1: Surely she didn't say this because it was quite raw.

378
00:17:26,821 --> 00:17:29,621
Speaker 2: She did say that, So just a quick recap on

379
00:17:29,661 --> 00:17:32,502
Speaker 2: what she said was, among other things, my heart and

380
00:17:32,542 --> 00:17:35,222
Speaker 2: compassion goes out to anyone who has traversed the traumatic

381
00:17:35,302 --> 00:17:39,262
Speaker 2: journey of betrayal. It is a profound wound that cuts deep.

382
00:17:39,782 --> 00:17:42,341
Speaker 2: Debraly Finnis definitely did say that it's the first time

383
00:17:42,381 --> 00:17:44,621
Speaker 2: she's come out since they're split, which is over a

384
00:17:44,661 --> 00:17:47,701
Speaker 2: year ago, two years ago, I think, and confirmed what

385
00:17:47,742 --> 00:17:49,381
Speaker 2: lots of people have been talking about, which is that

386
00:17:49,422 --> 00:17:51,941
Speaker 2: she at least feels very betrayed by what happened and

387
00:17:51,982 --> 00:17:55,781
Speaker 2: he's now repartnered. And then Jesse shared something in our

388
00:17:55,821 --> 00:17:59,302
Speaker 2: group chat. That was Hugh's response that went completely over

389
00:17:59,302 --> 00:18:01,182
Speaker 2: my head. Please explain, Jesse Stevens.

390
00:18:01,262 --> 00:18:05,021
Speaker 3: So, I was just minding my own business on Friday,

391
00:18:05,061 --> 00:18:07,821
Speaker 3: doing a little scroll and I see Hugh Jackman doing

392
00:18:07,861 --> 00:18:10,941
Speaker 3: a love little dance on Instagram, like with ski I

393
00:18:11,061 --> 00:18:14,262
Speaker 3: love few Jackman doing a little dance. So I turned

394
00:18:14,262 --> 00:18:17,861
Speaker 3: it on and watched and he was dancing to Bye

395
00:18:17,861 --> 00:18:21,181
Speaker 3: Bye Bye by n Sync, which was all about farewelling

396
00:18:21,222 --> 00:18:23,421
Speaker 3: a partner. And then I looked at a nice fashion

397
00:18:23,581 --> 00:18:25,742
Speaker 3: not in a nice way. I looked at the caption

398
00:18:26,341 --> 00:18:29,821
Speaker 3: which was just in capitals the word finally, and I

399
00:18:29,861 --> 00:18:31,782
Speaker 3: put it in our grip chat and I said, guys,

400
00:18:31,782 --> 00:18:33,381
Speaker 3: have we seen this? And Holly was like, he's so

401
00:18:33,422 --> 00:18:34,342
Speaker 3: good at skipping.

402
00:18:34,742 --> 00:18:37,501
Speaker 1: Because that's a little quip from his one man show

403
00:18:37,901 --> 00:18:40,542
Speaker 1: that he's not doing anymore. But then he didn't release.

404
00:18:40,581 --> 00:18:42,861
Speaker 2: At the time, I thought it was a flex of like,

405
00:18:42,942 --> 00:18:45,182
Speaker 2: look how fit I am, because skipping's really hard.

406
00:18:45,222 --> 00:18:48,462
Speaker 3: I've tried it. It wasn't about skipping, hollywhen right, sorry,

407
00:18:48,782 --> 00:18:49,421
Speaker 3: it was shade.

408
00:18:49,542 --> 00:18:53,262
Speaker 2: It was about saying finally bye bye to my ex wife.

409
00:18:53,341 --> 00:18:53,502
Speaker 7: Right.

410
00:18:54,262 --> 00:18:56,942
Speaker 2: So the reaction since has been mixed, and the reason

411
00:18:56,982 --> 00:18:58,061
Speaker 2: we want to talk about it again.

412
00:18:58,182 --> 00:19:01,262
Speaker 1: How did you feel about that when you.

413
00:19:01,422 --> 00:19:05,061
Speaker 2: I was like petty, Hugh, very petty. I think sometimes

414
00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:07,741
Speaker 2: if you're the one who's been called out, well, I

415
00:19:07,742 --> 00:19:09,181
Speaker 2: guess you make a decision. But it would have been

416
00:19:09,182 --> 00:19:12,181
Speaker 2: classic shut up, right, will Yeah. But then that's what

417
00:19:12,302 --> 00:19:15,022
Speaker 2: this conversations about, right, because that's how some people feel

418
00:19:15,022 --> 00:19:18,702
Speaker 2: about what Debraley said. Some people are like, oh, much

419
00:19:18,742 --> 00:19:21,182
Speaker 2: classier to keep your mouth shut. And then I read

420
00:19:21,182 --> 00:19:24,462
Speaker 2: this article by Kate Halfpenny in the Nine Papers on

421
00:19:24,502 --> 00:19:27,462
Speaker 2: the weekend that argued in defense of women not having

422
00:19:27,502 --> 00:19:29,381
Speaker 2: to play nice all the time when they're on the

423
00:19:29,542 --> 00:19:33,302
Speaker 2: end of a particularly nasty betrayal. She wrote, without taking

424
00:19:33,302 --> 00:19:35,262
Speaker 2: sides on the ethics of a marriage, I basically know

425
00:19:35,341 --> 00:19:38,502
Speaker 2: nothing about. Here's why I am applauding what Furness's move

426
00:19:38,581 --> 00:19:42,421
Speaker 2: stands for. Back to the honesty First, she reminded us,

427
00:19:42,462 --> 00:19:44,901
Speaker 2: you don't have to keep smiling when someone blows up

428
00:19:44,942 --> 00:19:47,701
Speaker 2: your life. You don't owe anyone a soft landing for

429
00:19:47,742 --> 00:19:50,502
Speaker 2: decisions they made, or have to perform gratitude for the

430
00:19:50,542 --> 00:19:54,262
Speaker 2: privilege of being abandoned. She reminded us, you don't need

431
00:19:54,262 --> 00:19:57,742
Speaker 2: to prioritize everyone else's comfort over what you're busting to say,

432
00:19:58,302 --> 00:20:02,181
Speaker 2: even if sometimes admitting life sucks feels risky. What do

433
00:20:02,262 --> 00:20:06,101
Speaker 2: we think about that? Do we think that a woman scorned,

434
00:20:06,702 --> 00:20:09,502
Speaker 2: which is, you know, the cliche, has kind of been

435
00:20:09,742 --> 00:20:12,581
Speaker 2: given a bit of permission by what Debraly said.

436
00:20:12,901 --> 00:20:15,982
Speaker 3: I liked her point that you don't have to keep

437
00:20:16,022 --> 00:20:20,262
Speaker 3: smiling when someone blows up your life and you are

438
00:20:20,341 --> 00:20:23,941
Speaker 3: allowed to leave your wife for someone else. That is

439
00:20:23,982 --> 00:20:27,782
Speaker 3: not against the law, right, but that person that you

440
00:20:27,901 --> 00:20:30,302
Speaker 3: left gets to have a feeling about it and gets

441
00:20:30,381 --> 00:20:33,061
Speaker 3: to express that if they want. And I think what

442
00:20:33,182 --> 00:20:38,181
Speaker 3: I felt about the Hugh Jackman response, which perhaps it

443
00:20:38,302 --> 00:20:42,782
Speaker 3: was just a very poorly timed ode tenC. Finally what, well,

444
00:20:42,861 --> 00:20:44,061
Speaker 3: finally he's done of it.

445
00:20:44,101 --> 00:20:49,821
Speaker 1: Finally, Yes, there's no good intention interpretation.

446
00:20:50,061 --> 00:20:51,982
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is you can make that decision,

447
00:20:52,341 --> 00:20:54,262
Speaker 3: but then you don't get to be shady about it.

448
00:20:54,462 --> 00:20:57,501
Speaker 3: I reckon that Deborah or whatever then gets to have

449
00:20:57,542 --> 00:21:00,501
Speaker 3: the last word, and then we let it lie. There

450
00:21:00,581 --> 00:21:03,381
Speaker 3: was something. So we don't know what happened in their marriage.

451
00:21:03,462 --> 00:21:05,542
Speaker 3: We don't know what happened or how.

452
00:21:05,381 --> 00:21:09,061
Speaker 1: It's been since. But then in terms of decided.

453
00:21:08,782 --> 00:21:13,861
Speaker 3: To leave, I think Deborah le Furness owned it, and

454
00:21:13,901 --> 00:21:16,101
Speaker 3: she said what she meant. I think what was difficult

455
00:21:16,101 --> 00:21:20,302
Speaker 3: about the Hugh Jackman thing is that it was slightly obscure,

456
00:21:20,502 --> 00:21:21,942
Speaker 3: which felt less honest.

457
00:21:22,341 --> 00:21:24,421
Speaker 1: I think it felt like Debrelee was punching up and

458
00:21:24,462 --> 00:21:27,341
Speaker 1: it felt like Hugh Jackman was punching down in that instance.

459
00:21:28,022 --> 00:21:31,101
Speaker 1: Of course, the most famous betrayal, you know that would

460
00:21:31,101 --> 00:21:35,022
Speaker 1: be an analog comparison would be when Jennifer Aniston was

461
00:21:35,101 --> 00:21:37,742
Speaker 1: left by Brad Pitt for Angelina Jolie, who was the

462
00:21:37,782 --> 00:21:40,141
Speaker 1: co star in his movie Mister and Missus Smith.

463
00:21:39,942 --> 00:21:41,182
Speaker 2: The subject of my thesis.

464
00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:43,982
Speaker 1: Yes, and so, just like about a month or so

465
00:21:44,502 --> 00:21:47,661
Speaker 1: after they had announced their split and the world had

466
00:21:47,742 --> 00:21:51,461
Speaker 1: learned through paparazzi photos that Brad and Angelina were in

467
00:21:51,502 --> 00:21:54,701
Speaker 1: fact a couple. They posed for as part of the

468
00:21:54,742 --> 00:21:56,701
Speaker 1: publicity for Mister and Missus Smith. They posed for the

469
00:21:56,742 --> 00:21:59,342
Speaker 1: cover of w magazine and it was like this sort

470
00:21:59,381 --> 00:22:01,581
Speaker 1: of set as if they were this couple. There were

471
00:22:01,621 --> 00:22:03,941
Speaker 1: like six babies and it was like them. Remember that

472
00:22:03,982 --> 00:22:06,861
Speaker 1: magazine pitched in my brain. One of the photos was

473
00:22:06,901 --> 00:22:10,061
Speaker 1: them with six babies, as if it was fairly precientt

474
00:22:10,061 --> 00:22:11,861
Speaker 1: but as if it was that that was their family,

475
00:22:11,901 --> 00:22:15,061
Speaker 1: and they were played a couple in this photoshoot. And

476
00:22:15,262 --> 00:22:18,302
Speaker 1: in her first interview in Vanity Fair, Jennifer Aniston was

477
00:22:18,341 --> 00:22:21,101
Speaker 1: asked about it, and the whole world was waiting to

478
00:22:21,141 --> 00:22:25,261
Speaker 1: see how she would handle this most public betrayal, and

479
00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:28,181
Speaker 1: I remember exactly what she said of him. She said,

480
00:22:28,302 --> 00:22:32,302
Speaker 1: I feel like he's missing a sensitivity chip. Yeah, And

481
00:22:32,341 --> 00:22:35,782
Speaker 1: then she also said about Angelina Jolie something about it

482
00:22:35,782 --> 00:22:38,782
Speaker 1: being not cool, and that was that was as much

483
00:22:38,821 --> 00:22:40,101
Speaker 1: as she said ever.

484
00:22:40,422 --> 00:22:45,461
Speaker 3: Ever, So I read this story over the weekend about anger,

485
00:22:45,502 --> 00:22:48,182
Speaker 3: women's anger, and it was an interview with a woman

486
00:22:48,262 --> 00:22:51,702
Speaker 3: named doctor Jennifer Cox who's written this book about female anger,

487
00:22:51,942 --> 00:22:54,782
Speaker 3: and she says that it presents differently in different women.

488
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:59,701
Speaker 3: For some it's like a slow, bubbling sensation, and for

489
00:22:59,821 --> 00:23:03,061
Speaker 3: others it is like a hot iron and it hits

490
00:23:03,061 --> 00:23:04,861
Speaker 3: them really really fast. Right, And then she said that

491
00:23:04,861 --> 00:23:08,141
Speaker 3: there are five different anger personalities that women have. The

492
00:23:08,141 --> 00:23:11,341
Speaker 3: first is the internalized, So you keep it inside and

493
00:23:11,422 --> 00:23:14,622
Speaker 3: you think that expressing it would be really impolite, and

494
00:23:15,022 --> 00:23:18,501
Speaker 3: the impacts of that on your physical health have been proven,

495
00:23:18,621 --> 00:23:21,461
Speaker 3: so for us, I think it is too and so

496
00:23:21,502 --> 00:23:24,742
Speaker 3: you just kind of suppress, suppressuppress. Then you've got the reactor.

497
00:23:25,222 --> 00:23:27,861
Speaker 3: She has been labeled a Karen. You snap, so you

498
00:23:27,942 --> 00:23:31,141
Speaker 3: react in the moment, which isn't ideal either, sobolutely the

499
00:23:31,222 --> 00:23:34,741
Speaker 3: denier And that means and maybe I relate most with this,

500
00:23:34,861 --> 00:23:38,302
Speaker 3: the denier. You don't even know you're angry. You label

501
00:23:38,341 --> 00:23:41,502
Speaker 3: it something else, You label it sad, you label it worried.

502
00:23:41,982 --> 00:23:44,302
Speaker 3: The displacer. I think a lot of women will relate

503
00:23:44,341 --> 00:23:46,461
Speaker 3: with this. You absorb the anger from your boss being

504
00:23:46,502 --> 00:23:47,861
Speaker 3: a dickhead to you, and then you go home and

505
00:23:47,901 --> 00:23:50,222
Speaker 3: take it out on your husband. You displace the anger

506
00:23:50,222 --> 00:23:52,701
Speaker 3: in your life. And the last one is the embracer,

507
00:23:52,861 --> 00:23:55,021
Speaker 3: and that's what we should all be aiming for. And

508
00:23:55,061 --> 00:23:59,061
Speaker 3: to be an embracer is too sometimes like decide whether

509
00:23:59,141 --> 00:24:02,141
Speaker 3: or not you're going to express it, but acknowledge that

510
00:24:02,182 --> 00:24:05,302
Speaker 3: anger is a thing that actually isn't a negative emotion.

511
00:24:05,901 --> 00:24:08,141
Speaker 3: The reason why you get a rise in adrenaline and

512
00:24:08,222 --> 00:24:10,581
Speaker 3: cortisola is because your body is saying there is something

513
00:24:10,621 --> 00:24:13,302
Speaker 3: in this situation that needs to change. So it's giving

514
00:24:13,341 --> 00:24:16,662
Speaker 3: you the energy to go to say something propulsive. Yeah,

515
00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:19,621
Speaker 3: exactly right. It's actually a really positive thing and so

516
00:24:19,702 --> 00:24:23,102
Speaker 3: I thought with Deborah Lee that you decide whether you're

517
00:24:23,101 --> 00:24:24,501
Speaker 3: going to do something with the anger or whether you're

518
00:24:24,502 --> 00:24:26,141
Speaker 3: going to sit with it, and sometimes it's better for

519
00:24:26,182 --> 00:24:27,221
Speaker 3: you to do something with it.

520
00:24:27,702 --> 00:24:31,422
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Debra isn't just us right as in that

521
00:24:31,502 --> 00:24:33,782
Speaker 2: she knew that that statement was going to make headlines

522
00:24:33,782 --> 00:24:36,861
Speaker 2: around the world and was going to change forever the

523
00:24:36,901 --> 00:24:39,702
Speaker 2: way everybody looks at Hugh Jackman and his new relationship.

524
00:24:40,022 --> 00:24:43,941
Speaker 2: So it was a very specific grenade to throw. And

525
00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:46,022
Speaker 2: I'm not saying whether or not she should have done it,

526
00:24:46,061 --> 00:24:48,142
Speaker 2: but it's you know, one of the things that Kate

527
00:24:48,141 --> 00:24:50,061
Speaker 2: Halfpenny says in that is she said it was very

528
00:24:50,101 --> 00:24:53,022
Speaker 2: strategic to wait this long, and so in a way

529
00:24:53,061 --> 00:24:55,222
Speaker 2: that was really smart, because you know, revenge is a

530
00:24:55,381 --> 00:24:57,422
Speaker 2: dish best of cold, all of that's.

531
00:24:58,302 --> 00:24:59,782
Speaker 1: They were negotiating and.

532
00:25:03,022 --> 00:25:05,661
Speaker 2: Then throw them and then throw the grenade. But it

533
00:25:05,742 --> 00:25:09,782
Speaker 2: was a very emotional statement. It's interesting because you know,

534
00:25:09,901 --> 00:25:12,261
Speaker 2: every expert on divorce ever will say if there are

535
00:25:12,341 --> 00:25:16,141
Speaker 2: children involved, it's absolutely critical to never criticize the other person.

536
00:25:16,581 --> 00:25:19,621
Speaker 2: But also, what is it like, Well, I know what

537
00:25:19,661 --> 00:25:22,381
Speaker 2: it's like for people who are always around everybody.

538
00:25:22,022 --> 00:25:23,421
Speaker 3: Pretending everything's fine.

539
00:25:23,542 --> 00:25:27,181
Speaker 2: When it's really not fine, particularly for women, particularly for

540
00:25:27,262 --> 00:25:29,222
Speaker 2: that sort of buttoned up lip. I'm not going to

541
00:25:29,302 --> 00:25:32,741
Speaker 2: criticize him even though he's doing X y Z. Is

542
00:25:32,782 --> 00:25:35,422
Speaker 2: that always the best policy? I don't think it is.

543
00:25:35,542 --> 00:25:38,341
Speaker 1: You know, it's certainly cut through in this age of

544
00:25:39,022 --> 00:25:42,141
Speaker 1: celebrity split announcements that are like.

545
00:25:42,381 --> 00:25:45,101
Speaker 3: We've never loved each other more, we are best friends

546
00:25:45,982 --> 00:25:48,262
Speaker 3: too much, very much love.

547
00:25:48,381 --> 00:25:50,061
Speaker 2: We just need to split it, to be honest, That's

548
00:25:50,061 --> 00:25:53,542
Speaker 2: where they started, right Like, when they first announced that split,

549
00:25:53,581 --> 00:25:55,981
Speaker 2: it was like that, and it's like finally now, I

550
00:25:55,982 --> 00:26:00,381
Speaker 2: think perhaps, and also before while it was all still

551
00:26:00,502 --> 00:26:04,341
Speaker 2: playing nice. Often in splits, it takes a long time

552
00:26:04,422 --> 00:26:06,222
Speaker 2: for everything to settle out and then you're like.

553
00:26:06,462 --> 00:26:10,421
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, after the break the book deal that people

554
00:26:10,542 --> 00:26:13,221
Speaker 3: are not happy about out loud As.

555
00:26:13,262 --> 00:26:15,022
Speaker 1: If you want to listen to us every day of

556
00:26:15,061 --> 00:26:17,821
Speaker 1: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on

557
00:26:17,901 --> 00:26:19,942
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays.

558
00:26:19,502 --> 00:26:21,542
Speaker 3: By becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.

559
00:26:21,901 --> 00:26:24,061
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and

560
00:26:24,101 --> 00:26:26,461
Speaker 1: support us, and a big thank you to all our

561
00:26:26,502 --> 00:26:27,581
Speaker 1: current subscribers.

562
00:26:32,782 --> 00:26:35,861
Speaker 3: Have you two seen the story about the TikToker Luke

563
00:26:35,901 --> 00:26:38,542
Speaker 3: Bateman who got a book deal. No, you've missed it.

564
00:26:38,702 --> 00:26:40,261
Speaker 2: I have seen him a little bit. I saw him

565
00:26:40,302 --> 00:26:42,941
Speaker 2: interviewed on TV a while ago. He is correct me

566
00:26:42,982 --> 00:26:47,821
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, A handsome, wholesome, countryish dude who talks

567
00:26:47,901 --> 00:26:49,981
Speaker 2: about romantic books in this tractor.

568
00:26:50,061 --> 00:26:51,302
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Absolutely?

569
00:26:51,502 --> 00:26:51,702
Speaker 7: Yep.

570
00:26:51,821 --> 00:26:53,502
Speaker 3: So Australian. Oh, Australian.

571
00:26:53,502 --> 00:26:54,022
Speaker 2: Australian.

572
00:26:54,302 --> 00:26:57,061
Speaker 3: So this is what happened. Luke Bateman, he's thirty years

573
00:26:57,101 --> 00:26:59,742
Speaker 3: old and he used to play for the NRL team,

574
00:26:59,821 --> 00:27:02,381
Speaker 3: the Camber Raiders, so as an NRL player. Then a

575
00:27:02,462 --> 00:27:04,502
Speaker 3: couple of years ago he was on The Bachelor and

576
00:27:04,502 --> 00:27:06,781
Speaker 3: he made the top three or something, so he had

577
00:27:06,782 --> 00:27:09,182
Speaker 3: a little bit of a platform. But then in April

578
00:27:09,182 --> 00:27:12,502
Speaker 3: of this year he started doing this thing on TikTok.

579
00:27:12,621 --> 00:27:15,502
Speaker 3: He has an account called Luke Reads where he would

580
00:27:15,542 --> 00:27:18,981
Speaker 3: read fantasy smut. He also shares like book reviews and

581
00:27:19,022 --> 00:27:20,982
Speaker 3: he talks about his love fantasy novels. He's just a

582
00:27:21,022 --> 00:27:22,862
Speaker 3: little bit of a taste of the kind of content

583
00:27:22,901 --> 00:27:23,622
Speaker 3: that he creates.

584
00:27:23,901 --> 00:27:27,101
Speaker 6: These six books are my six god tear fantasy books.

585
00:27:27,141 --> 00:27:29,341
Speaker 6: These are the books that are just hedgeh holders above

586
00:27:29,422 --> 00:27:31,901
Speaker 6: everything else for me, and the books of you know,

587
00:27:32,022 --> 00:27:34,581
Speaker 6: made me yell, they've made me cry. They're let me

588
00:27:34,621 --> 00:27:37,222
Speaker 6: with the biggest bookangos I've ever had in my life.

589
00:27:37,661 --> 00:27:39,661
Speaker 6: I can't wait to share them with you. Starting out

590
00:27:39,702 --> 00:27:42,901
Speaker 6: with book number six, Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hope.

591
00:27:42,942 --> 00:27:46,302
Speaker 3: Holly is someone who is in the book industry genius. Uh,

592
00:27:46,901 --> 00:27:48,862
Speaker 3: fantasy is where.

593
00:27:48,661 --> 00:27:53,461
Speaker 2: It's at, huge, romantic fantasy and sexiest fantasy as we're

594
00:27:53,502 --> 00:27:56,421
Speaker 2: calling it, the Court of Thorn Rose's series. All of

595
00:27:56,462 --> 00:27:59,982
Speaker 2: those are the biggest selling books by about a bajillion

596
00:28:00,061 --> 00:28:05,142
Speaker 2: mile exactly. So absolute genius for a handsome, straight Aussie

597
00:28:05,141 --> 00:28:08,621
Speaker 2: bloke to be sitting in a tractor talking about that stuff.

598
00:28:08,861 --> 00:28:10,701
Speaker 1: Genius. It's not what you would expect.

599
00:28:10,861 --> 00:28:12,381
Speaker 3: It's not what you would expect. But I think he

600
00:28:12,621 --> 00:28:16,101
Speaker 3: genuinely really likes these fantasy books. And he would also

601
00:28:16,141 --> 00:28:19,141
Speaker 3: provide he do kind of book reviews, and he would

602
00:28:19,182 --> 00:28:21,782
Speaker 3: do recommendations and all that kind of stuff. And in

603
00:28:21,821 --> 00:28:24,101
Speaker 3: a matter of weeks he amassed one hundred and seventy

604
00:28:24,101 --> 00:28:26,142
Speaker 3: thousand followers, so he blew.

605
00:28:26,022 --> 00:28:28,262
Speaker 2: Up and lots of his videos have had millions of views.

606
00:28:28,502 --> 00:28:30,381
Speaker 1: And so what he just talks about the books that

607
00:28:30,422 --> 00:28:30,861
Speaker 1: he's reading.

608
00:28:31,182 --> 00:28:34,542
Speaker 3: So it's like a book talk account right, But then

609
00:28:34,821 --> 00:28:39,221
Speaker 3: came the announcement. Here is what Luke told his followers all.

610
00:28:39,262 --> 00:28:42,782
Speaker 6: Book talk, I just wanted to share some incredible news

611
00:28:42,822 --> 00:28:46,982
Speaker 6: with you. Or I've just signed a two book deal

612
00:28:47,022 --> 00:28:52,102
Speaker 6: with Atria and Simon s Australia. This is a childhood

613
00:28:52,182 --> 00:28:55,102
Speaker 6: dream come true for me. I've wonder be an author

614
00:28:55,102 --> 00:28:58,382
Speaker 6: of my whole life. So it really blows me away.

615
00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:00,462
Speaker 3: So what is he going to write books now? Yes?

616
00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:03,582
Speaker 3: So he signed a two book deal for a fantasy

617
00:29:03,661 --> 00:29:05,582
Speaker 3: series that he hasn't written yet.

618
00:29:05,661 --> 00:29:07,822
Speaker 1: Can he write? Well, we know he can read.

619
00:29:07,862 --> 00:29:08,942
Speaker 2: We don't know that yet, but he.

620
00:29:08,862 --> 00:29:09,342
Speaker 1: Says it came.

621
00:29:09,661 --> 00:29:10,262
Speaker 3: He says he can.

622
00:29:10,462 --> 00:29:12,741
Speaker 1: Someone else can write it. Anyway, you guys write out,

623
00:29:13,062 --> 00:29:13,782
Speaker 1: we can look.

624
00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:17,822
Speaker 3: While some were excited for Luke, there were others that

625
00:29:18,062 --> 00:29:21,701
Speaker 3: it inspired a flurry of think pieces, of opinions, of

626
00:29:21,822 --> 00:29:25,182
Speaker 3: videos and comments about how the publishing industry is broken

627
00:29:25,302 --> 00:29:29,661
Speaker 3: and how white men full upwards. Here's a little sense

628
00:29:29,702 --> 00:29:30,981
Speaker 3: of what the reaction was.

629
00:29:31,222 --> 00:29:32,981
Speaker 4: The worst thing you could have done was hop up

630
00:29:33,022 --> 00:29:35,822
Speaker 4: on TikTok and tell everybody that you signed a two

631
00:29:35,942 --> 00:29:39,062
Speaker 4: book deal and you haven't even wrote a manuscript. And

632
00:29:39,142 --> 00:29:41,262
Speaker 4: I want you to know this is not me coming

633
00:29:41,302 --> 00:29:43,142
Speaker 4: for your neck. I want to be honest, because you're

634
00:29:43,182 --> 00:29:45,701
Speaker 4: about to see a shift. If you haven't already in

635
00:29:45,742 --> 00:29:48,261
Speaker 4: the last twenty four to forty eight hours, you're going

636
00:29:48,302 --> 00:29:51,661
Speaker 4: to see a major shift. The following you had is

637
00:29:51,742 --> 00:29:54,102
Speaker 4: not going to be the following you continue to have.

638
00:29:54,782 --> 00:29:57,782
Speaker 4: You stepped on a lot of people's next to get

639
00:29:57,782 --> 00:30:01,022
Speaker 4: a two book deal. Whether it was your intention or not,

640
00:30:01,262 --> 00:30:04,941
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. I frankly don't think you deserve a

641
00:30:04,982 --> 00:30:07,982
Speaker 4: two book deal. There are too many minorities, too many

642
00:30:08,022 --> 00:30:11,022
Speaker 4: women who are out here fighting daily to try to

643
00:30:11,062 --> 00:30:12,941
Speaker 4: get what you just got handed to you.

644
00:30:13,182 --> 00:30:16,582
Speaker 8: Are you met about the Luke Bateman deal, because that's nothing.

645
00:30:16,862 --> 00:30:19,261
Speaker 8: I was working at a big five publisher when this

646
00:30:19,302 --> 00:30:21,702
Speaker 8: guy got a deal that he got a five hundred

647
00:30:21,862 --> 00:30:27,702
Speaker 8: thousand dollar book deal because his wife was famous.

648
00:30:28,022 --> 00:30:32,062
Speaker 5: The Australian publishing scene, Luke's Australian. The Australian publishing scene

649
00:30:32,182 --> 00:30:35,542
Speaker 5: is a lot smaller than the UK and the US,

650
00:30:35,982 --> 00:30:40,702
Speaker 5: to the extent that Australian publishers get really excited about

651
00:30:40,822 --> 00:30:46,502
Speaker 5: Australian book creators, and so the Australian publishers have probably

652
00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:49,782
Speaker 5: seen Luke come on to book talk make a bit

653
00:30:49,782 --> 00:30:51,982
Speaker 5: of a following for himself, the build off of the

654
00:30:52,022 --> 00:30:56,142
Speaker 5: fact that he's already a celebrity and have gone like, oh,

655
00:30:56,342 --> 00:30:58,702
Speaker 5: we hear that you're writing a book. Can we talk

656
00:30:58,702 --> 00:30:59,102
Speaker 5: about it?

657
00:30:59,182 --> 00:31:01,782
Speaker 1: And he's obviously not going to say no, this is wild.

658
00:31:01,982 --> 00:31:04,382
Speaker 1: This seems exactly like what happened to Glennon Doyle when

659
00:31:04,382 --> 00:31:07,942
Speaker 1: she launched a paid newsletter on Sepstack. First of all,

660
00:31:08,142 --> 00:31:11,021
Speaker 1: what do they think the book industry is? Do they

661
00:31:11,022 --> 00:31:13,382
Speaker 1: think it's a charity because it's not. It's a business.

662
00:31:14,142 --> 00:31:16,222
Speaker 1: And secondly, what do they want him to say, No,

663
00:31:16,502 --> 00:31:17,822
Speaker 1: don't give this book deal to.

664
00:31:17,782 --> 00:31:20,661
Speaker 3: Me, give it to other people. I would assume that

665
00:31:20,742 --> 00:31:24,022
Speaker 3: he wrote some sort of proposal, like I probably believe

666
00:31:24,062 --> 00:31:25,862
Speaker 3: that they reached out to him and said you had

667
00:31:25,862 --> 00:31:27,182
Speaker 3: a book in the works, and they would have reached

668
00:31:27,182 --> 00:31:28,662
Speaker 3: out to him, and they do that all the time.

669
00:31:28,702 --> 00:31:30,702
Speaker 3: They do that all the time, right, And look, he's responded.

670
00:31:30,782 --> 00:31:33,181
Speaker 3: He has said he's speaking to people from marginalized groups

671
00:31:33,222 --> 00:31:35,902
Speaker 3: to see how he can also uplift their work and

672
00:31:35,942 --> 00:31:39,262
Speaker 3: he understands why some people feel let down by the industry.

673
00:31:40,422 --> 00:31:44,142
Speaker 3: Holly is a criticism towards Luke and more broadly, the

674
00:31:44,182 --> 00:31:45,582
Speaker 3: publishing industry fair.

675
00:31:45,902 --> 00:31:49,102
Speaker 2: Well, the book industry isn't fair. It is absolutely true

676
00:31:49,102 --> 00:31:54,022
Speaker 2: that you could be the world's most gifted writer and

677
00:31:54,102 --> 00:31:56,501
Speaker 2: the person who's got a million TikTok followers is going

678
00:31:56,542 --> 00:31:58,622
Speaker 2: to get a book dealer over you. It's just true, right,

679
00:31:58,661 --> 00:32:00,622
Speaker 2: And the reason for that, and the last voice we

680
00:32:00,702 --> 00:32:03,822
Speaker 2: heard there hit the nail on the head. The book industry,

681
00:32:03,822 --> 00:32:07,502
Speaker 2: particularly in Australia, is small. It is not that profitable.

682
00:32:08,062 --> 00:32:13,181
Speaker 2: Publishers themselves do not have boundless budgets. And the whole

683
00:32:13,222 --> 00:32:16,302
Speaker 2: point of why they get excited about creators and writers

684
00:32:16,302 --> 00:32:19,142
Speaker 2: who have followings is because it does nearly all their

685
00:32:19,182 --> 00:32:20,182
Speaker 2: marketing work for them.

686
00:32:20,382 --> 00:32:20,582
Speaker 4: Right.

687
00:32:21,062 --> 00:32:24,062
Speaker 2: So you know, obviously I'm a writer, you're a writer.

688
00:32:24,102 --> 00:32:25,262
Speaker 3: We're all writers at this table.

689
00:32:25,782 --> 00:32:29,461
Speaker 2: I know that I have a massive head start because

690
00:32:29,502 --> 00:32:32,021
Speaker 2: I have a following in terms of when I publish

691
00:32:32,062 --> 00:32:34,622
Speaker 2: a book. There is no question. I absolutely acknowledge that.

692
00:32:35,022 --> 00:32:38,582
Speaker 2: And that is attractive to a publishing house because otherwise

693
00:32:38,622 --> 00:32:42,022
Speaker 2: you're trying to get your book out in a tiny market,

694
00:32:42,022 --> 00:32:45,262
Speaker 2: in an increasingly chaotic and crowded publicity space. You know,

695
00:32:45,342 --> 00:32:47,622
Speaker 2: once upon a time, get it in the book pages

696
00:32:47,742 --> 00:32:50,741
Speaker 2: of the Woman's Weekly, get it in the literary pages

697
00:32:50,782 --> 00:32:53,782
Speaker 2: of the broadsheet newspapers, and those things still all exist,

698
00:32:53,782 --> 00:32:55,701
Speaker 2: but their influence is shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and

699
00:32:55,702 --> 00:32:58,262
Speaker 2: shrunk and shrunk. So the places that people find out

700
00:32:58,302 --> 00:33:00,342
Speaker 2: about books is social media, just like it's the place

701
00:33:00,382 --> 00:33:03,822
Speaker 2: they find out a bout everything else. TV shows, makeup music,

702
00:33:03,982 --> 00:33:06,422
Speaker 2: all of those things, movies, and so if you've got

703
00:33:06,422 --> 00:33:08,862
Speaker 2: a creator who's got a following, half of that work

704
00:33:08,862 --> 00:33:11,822
Speaker 2: has already done, so that is obviously more attractive to

705
00:33:12,182 --> 00:33:15,782
Speaker 2: the publishing industry. Does that mean they'll publish any old

706
00:33:15,902 --> 00:33:19,142
Speaker 2: nonsense if you've got a following, Well no, because people

707
00:33:19,222 --> 00:33:21,822
Speaker 2: still have to want to buy it. And the most

708
00:33:21,822 --> 00:33:25,422
Speaker 2: successful books are the ones that people buy, read love,

709
00:33:25,622 --> 00:33:27,662
Speaker 2: and the word of mouth builds, and it will build

710
00:33:27,702 --> 00:33:29,862
Speaker 2: on social media as well as it will build elsewhere.

711
00:33:29,862 --> 00:33:32,422
Speaker 2: And there are countless examples of books from people who

712
00:33:32,422 --> 00:33:35,782
Speaker 2: don't have followings becoming hits. But it's a sure of

713
00:33:35,862 --> 00:33:38,902
Speaker 2: fire bet for a publishing house to start with someone

714
00:33:38,902 --> 00:33:41,622
Speaker 2: with a following, right. The thing is is it's not

715
00:33:41,661 --> 00:33:44,382
Speaker 2: a guarantee. I was looking at an author the other

716
00:33:44,502 --> 00:33:48,221
Speaker 2: day and she was sort of berating her audience, almost saying,

717
00:33:48,661 --> 00:33:50,742
Speaker 2: I've recently published a book, and I've got my book

718
00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:52,822
Speaker 2: scan sales and they're not very much because you need

719
00:33:52,862 --> 00:33:55,981
Speaker 2: to be really clear. In Australia, again, small market, not

720
00:33:56,022 --> 00:33:59,822
Speaker 2: that many people buy books anymore, ever, shrinking market in

721
00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:02,661
Speaker 2: a way because of all the competition for our attention.

722
00:34:03,182 --> 00:34:04,982
Speaker 2: So if you sell a thousand books, you're doing well.

723
00:34:05,062 --> 00:34:07,502
Speaker 2: If you sell five thousand books, you're an absolute bestseller.

724
00:34:07,862 --> 00:34:10,261
Speaker 2: And this author was saying, I know what my book

725
00:34:10,302 --> 00:34:12,822
Speaker 2: scan numbers are, and I know what my audience is,

726
00:34:12,902 --> 00:34:15,062
Speaker 2: and if all of you had bought a book, I

727
00:34:15,102 --> 00:34:16,821
Speaker 2: would be a best seller. But you haven't all bought

728
00:34:16,862 --> 00:34:18,542
Speaker 2: a book. Go and by a book, and that's not

729
00:34:18,701 --> 00:34:22,502
Speaker 2: how it works. So it's great to have a following.

730
00:34:22,542 --> 00:34:25,301
Speaker 2: It gives you a massive leg up in your promotion,

731
00:34:25,661 --> 00:34:29,221
Speaker 2: no question. But he isn't always going to translate the

732
00:34:29,302 --> 00:34:31,821
Speaker 2: point of this criticism though, And there is a validity here,

733
00:34:31,862 --> 00:34:35,181
Speaker 2: of course, is that does Luke Bateman, and maybe he's

734
00:34:35,181 --> 00:34:37,381
Speaker 2: a great writer. And I love anyone who's encouraging people

735
00:34:37,422 --> 00:34:39,341
Speaker 2: to read books, and particularly if they're young men. I

736
00:34:39,342 --> 00:34:42,702
Speaker 2: think that's fantastic because and few young people are reading books,

737
00:34:42,701 --> 00:34:44,622
Speaker 2: and I think we could all agree that they should

738
00:34:45,062 --> 00:34:46,821
Speaker 2: does he get a book deal at the expense of

739
00:34:46,822 --> 00:34:49,901
Speaker 2: someone else, because that is what is being suggested here,

740
00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:52,942
Speaker 2: that there's only so much pie that it's.

741
00:34:52,822 --> 00:34:55,661
Speaker 1: Actually the other way around. So if he sells a

742
00:34:55,661 --> 00:34:59,221
Speaker 1: million books, that means that the publishers will have more

743
00:34:59,221 --> 00:35:04,661
Speaker 1: money to take some risks on new undiscovered authors. What

744
00:35:04,942 --> 00:35:08,261
Speaker 1: hits me about this every time is the sense of entitlement.

745
00:35:08,382 --> 00:35:13,462
Speaker 1: Nobody's entitled to a book deal or a newsletter following.

746
00:35:14,062 --> 00:35:16,622
Speaker 1: It's a bit like saying to Nicole Kidman, you don't

747
00:35:16,661 --> 00:35:18,941
Speaker 1: need the money. You're really famous, So next time you're

748
00:35:18,982 --> 00:35:21,861
Speaker 1: off at a movie. There are so many actors who

749
00:35:22,062 --> 00:35:23,982
Speaker 1: want to be successful and would like to be in

750
00:35:23,982 --> 00:35:27,221
Speaker 1: a movie, you should step aside. But the thing is

751
00:35:27,261 --> 00:35:30,062
Speaker 1: that it doesn't work that way. It's not like someone

752
00:35:30,102 --> 00:35:31,781
Speaker 1: takes the money that was going to be paid to

753
00:35:31,862 --> 00:35:35,902
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman and one hundred unemployed actors get that money.

754
00:35:35,902 --> 00:35:38,582
Speaker 3: It's just not how it works. I suppose what I

755
00:35:38,622 --> 00:35:41,341
Speaker 3: can feel people saying, which I think is probably fair. Right,

756
00:35:41,502 --> 00:35:43,781
Speaker 3: we can all agree that having a platform, whether it's

757
00:35:43,781 --> 00:35:46,502
Speaker 3: on and BookTok, is its whole other discussion because BookTok

758
00:35:46,542 --> 00:35:48,821
Speaker 3: has its power that even Instagram doesn't have.

759
00:35:48,781 --> 00:35:50,461
Speaker 2: Anymore, and it's harder to game.

760
00:35:50,661 --> 00:35:53,181
Speaker 3: It's harder to game, right, So I can understand them going,

761
00:35:53,221 --> 00:35:56,822
Speaker 3: oh my god, what BookTalk is so the biggest books

762
00:35:57,022 --> 00:35:59,341
Speaker 3: of the last few years. Colleen Hoover is the best

763
00:35:59,382 --> 00:36:04,622
Speaker 3: example have been born of BookTok It has happened rather organically,

764
00:36:04,661 --> 00:36:08,102
Speaker 3: of people picking up Colleen Hoover, who never sold, was

765
00:36:08,181 --> 00:36:10,221
Speaker 3: not a bestseller, and when this book really good and

766
00:36:10,302 --> 00:36:12,662
Speaker 3: next minute she has dominated the charts for years.

767
00:36:12,982 --> 00:36:14,861
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a mark, to be clear, it wasn't

768
00:36:14,902 --> 00:36:17,622
Speaker 1: a marketing thing that she or a publishing company said,

769
00:36:17,701 --> 00:36:19,982
Speaker 1: I'm going to go on BookTalk and try to be famous.

770
00:36:20,261 --> 00:36:22,102
Speaker 1: It happened organically exactly.

771
00:36:22,582 --> 00:36:27,421
Speaker 3: But what I appreciate at a time when platforms matter

772
00:36:27,542 --> 00:36:31,341
Speaker 3: more than ever is if you are in a marginalized group,

773
00:36:31,382 --> 00:36:34,942
Speaker 3: if you are Indigenous, if you are black, if you

774
00:36:35,382 --> 00:36:39,542
Speaker 3: feel like you're in a marginalized group, who the algorithm

775
00:36:39,542 --> 00:36:41,741
Speaker 3: doesn't reward. And this is what I've heard a lot

776
00:36:41,781 --> 00:36:44,341
Speaker 3: of people talk about this that if you look at

777
00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:47,582
Speaker 3: the biggest influences in Australia, they do all happen to

778
00:36:47,622 --> 00:36:52,062
Speaker 3: be white. So the algorithm loves pretty white women. Yeah,

779
00:36:52,382 --> 00:36:54,622
Speaker 3: so pretty white women build a platform and then what

780
00:36:54,661 --> 00:36:58,102
Speaker 3: comes from that platform is a lot of wealth and opportunity.

781
00:36:58,181 --> 00:37:00,381
Speaker 3: So I can understand how it might feel if you're going,

782
00:37:00,862 --> 00:37:03,181
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get that platform, but they're.

783
00:37:03,062 --> 00:37:05,181
Speaker 1: Angry at the wrong guy. Like we're all living in

784
00:37:05,221 --> 00:37:08,662
Speaker 1: this attention economy, which we all hate, like to be clear,

785
00:37:09,062 --> 00:37:12,982
Speaker 1: except my the Kardashians, who it's working for, But we

786
00:37:13,062 --> 00:37:15,502
Speaker 1: all live in this world not by choice.

787
00:37:15,701 --> 00:37:16,822
Speaker 3: It is just the world.

788
00:37:17,382 --> 00:37:22,301
Speaker 1: To attack this guy forgetting a book deal because he

789
00:37:22,422 --> 00:37:25,821
Speaker 1: organically went and that was not a popular thing to do,

790
00:37:26,022 --> 00:37:26,781
Speaker 1: Like I don't think about.

791
00:37:26,781 --> 00:37:30,062
Speaker 3: What I struggle with is when I see comments and

792
00:37:30,142 --> 00:37:33,102
Speaker 3: commentary of people saying things that are just blatantly untrue

793
00:37:33,142 --> 00:37:36,142
Speaker 3: because they don't actually understand how the publishing industry works.

794
00:37:36,422 --> 00:37:39,261
Speaker 3: For example, no one gets a book deal without a manuscript.

795
00:37:39,302 --> 00:37:40,262
Speaker 3: That is just underrue.

796
00:37:40,302 --> 00:37:42,422
Speaker 1: Every prime minister, every sporting cat.

797
00:37:42,342 --> 00:37:45,381
Speaker 3: Again, Holly and I and you mea all acknowledge our

798
00:37:45,382 --> 00:37:47,221
Speaker 3: privilege in this space. We are not the average author

799
00:37:47,302 --> 00:37:49,942
Speaker 3: in Australia, but we got a book deal off a

800
00:37:50,062 --> 00:37:52,142
Speaker 3: proposal and we're not alone in that. If you work

801
00:37:52,142 --> 00:37:55,781
Speaker 3: in media, if Margo Robbie said to this publisher, I

802
00:37:55,781 --> 00:37:57,542
Speaker 3: think I've got a book on me. They would sign

803
00:37:57,582 --> 00:37:59,902
Speaker 3: her tomorrow. She doesn't have to prove her chops in

804
00:37:59,942 --> 00:38:01,142
Speaker 3: that they would make that work.

805
00:38:01,221 --> 00:38:03,822
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think is always worth mentioning

806
00:38:03,822 --> 00:38:06,542
Speaker 2: about this because book world loves a bit of a

807
00:38:06,582 --> 00:38:09,261
Speaker 2: blow up like this. It's almost like we think that

808
00:38:09,261 --> 00:38:12,381
Speaker 2: book one thing, you know what I mean, Like we're

809
00:38:12,422 --> 00:38:17,821
Speaker 2: comparing cookbooks and memoirs and romanticy with literary fiction and

810
00:38:18,062 --> 00:38:21,582
Speaker 2: historical memoir and like they're not, you know what I mean.

811
00:38:21,582 --> 00:38:24,901
Speaker 2: Books are many, many things. And the book that Luke

812
00:38:24,942 --> 00:38:28,022
Speaker 2: Bateman is probably going to write and I don't know,

813
00:38:28,422 --> 00:38:32,701
Speaker 2: but like I'm imagining, is probably not the book that

814
00:38:33,022 --> 00:38:37,022
Speaker 2: an unknown author who's desperately trying to get a book

815
00:38:37,102 --> 00:38:39,582
Speaker 2: deal from somewhere is trying to get. Like just because

816
00:38:39,582 --> 00:38:40,981
Speaker 2: it's called a book and it looks like a book

817
00:38:41,022 --> 00:38:43,582
Speaker 2: and it smells like a book, it's a million different things.

818
00:38:43,622 --> 00:38:46,382
Speaker 2: You can't argue that, you know, sort of a beauty

819
00:38:46,422 --> 00:38:49,462
Speaker 2: book is the same thing as orbital, you know what

820
00:38:49,502 --> 00:38:52,301
Speaker 2: I mean, And yet they're all books. It's kind of

821
00:38:52,342 --> 00:38:55,062
Speaker 2: a strange argument that this is taking from that.

822
00:38:55,342 --> 00:38:59,622
Speaker 3: I think this probably represents people's frustration with TikTok more broadly,

823
00:38:59,661 --> 00:39:03,341
Speaker 3: but also if you are a brilliant writer who is

824
00:39:03,342 --> 00:39:05,381
Speaker 3: trying to get a book deal in Australia, I think

825
00:39:05,382 --> 00:39:08,782
Speaker 3: every publishing house would agree that it's really, really hard,

826
00:39:08,862 --> 00:39:11,221
Speaker 3: and that the gate keepers of even getting into that

827
00:39:11,302 --> 00:39:14,982
Speaker 3: house feels near impossible. Like I have people message me

828
00:39:15,022 --> 00:39:16,261
Speaker 3: all the time and say how do I get my

829
00:39:16,302 --> 00:39:18,942
Speaker 3: book in front of people? And it is so bloody hard.

830
00:39:19,382 --> 00:39:21,421
Speaker 3: And so when you see someone who's done a few

831
00:39:21,462 --> 00:39:25,661
Speaker 3: weeks of work on TikTok, I can totally understand that frustrately.

832
00:39:26,661 --> 00:39:28,542
Speaker 3: Good Wednesday morning, I'm Olivia Jeequi.

833
00:39:28,382 --> 00:39:30,622
Speaker 7: And I'm Julia Dunn. We do have some breaking news

834
00:39:30,661 --> 00:39:35,942
Speaker 7: this morning. Literally Olivia's water has broke, okay, and she

835
00:39:36,102 --> 00:39:38,901
Speaker 7: is anchoring the news now in active labor.

836
00:39:38,622 --> 00:39:40,102
Speaker 1: Early labor, early labor.

837
00:39:40,661 --> 00:39:43,502
Speaker 7: We've been doing the contract. She's now, you know, timing

838
00:39:43,502 --> 00:39:46,342
Speaker 7: her contract. I'm going to pay a question two minutes apart.

839
00:39:46,622 --> 00:39:49,261
Speaker 8: No, well there was one, but it's been a few

840
00:39:49,302 --> 00:39:50,102
Speaker 8: minutes since then.

841
00:39:49,982 --> 00:39:50,741
Speaker 3: So we're still on good.

842
00:39:50,741 --> 00:39:52,461
Speaker 7: She her decision to stay on the desk.

843
00:39:52,701 --> 00:39:54,502
Speaker 1: Look at what it says days past two dates.

844
00:39:54,582 --> 00:39:55,821
Speaker 3: Oh there we go, Yeah, I know.

845
00:39:56,102 --> 00:39:58,701
Speaker 7: So we're thinking I'm to be here and I'll stay

846
00:39:58,701 --> 00:40:00,781
Speaker 7: on the desk for as long as I possibly can't that.

847
00:40:01,781 --> 00:40:04,381
Speaker 1: Right, this is upping a bucket to studio too.

848
00:40:04,462 --> 00:40:04,742
Speaker 6: Please.

849
00:40:05,221 --> 00:40:07,582
Speaker 3: I can just feel mea being like well, Jesse knocked

850
00:40:07,582 --> 00:40:09,382
Speaker 3: off a bit early exactly when I went and had

851
00:40:09,422 --> 00:40:10,022
Speaker 3: my baby.

852
00:40:10,542 --> 00:40:14,462
Speaker 2: That was news anchor Olivia Jaqui and her co host

853
00:40:14,542 --> 00:40:17,982
Speaker 2: Julie Done. They were hosting the local CBS news in Albany,

854
00:40:18,062 --> 00:40:21,702
Speaker 2: New York, last week, right, and Olivia was two days

855
00:40:21,701 --> 00:40:25,221
Speaker 2: overdue with her first child. Now what you heard there

856
00:40:25,382 --> 00:40:27,941
Speaker 2: was obviously Julie filling us in on what was going

857
00:40:27,982 --> 00:40:30,902
Speaker 2: on with Olivia and Olivia choosing to stay. She stayed

858
00:40:30,902 --> 00:40:32,661
Speaker 2: on the show from that bit you just heard for

859
00:40:32,741 --> 00:40:36,022
Speaker 2: three hours, three hours after her she did the whole

860
00:40:36,102 --> 00:40:38,542
Speaker 2: three hour session. She kept coming back after the break.

861
00:40:38,542 --> 00:40:41,701
Speaker 2: And what I loved is that Julie, who is also pregnant, FYI,

862
00:40:42,142 --> 00:40:43,222
Speaker 2: Julie was there going.

863
00:40:43,622 --> 00:40:45,062
Speaker 1: Olivia's chosen to be here.

864
00:40:45,221 --> 00:40:47,821
Speaker 3: Olivia would like to stay on the desk. Olivia wants

865
00:40:47,902 --> 00:40:51,022
Speaker 3: to stay. Olivia was tied to the desk by her employer.

866
00:40:51,181 --> 00:40:53,502
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, it's not a work life balance issue.

867
00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:58,301
Speaker 2: And when the broadcast finished after three hours, Olivia went

868
00:40:58,302 --> 00:41:00,502
Speaker 2: to the hospital with her husband and her baby boy,

869
00:41:00,582 --> 00:41:03,821
Speaker 2: Quincy was born less than twenty four hours later. Now,

870
00:41:03,862 --> 00:41:06,102
Speaker 2: what I love about that, as well as the fact

871
00:41:06,142 --> 00:41:08,622
Speaker 2: that Julie kept having to tell everybody that Olivia was

872
00:41:08,661 --> 00:41:11,661
Speaker 2: not being held against her well, is how quietly defensive

873
00:41:11,781 --> 00:41:13,982
Speaker 2: that story makes a lot of women who've had a

874
00:41:13,982 --> 00:41:16,661
Speaker 2: baby right where they're like, exactly, They're like.

875
00:41:17,342 --> 00:41:19,662
Speaker 3: I went to the hospital. Was I supposed to finish

876
00:41:19,741 --> 00:41:22,942
Speaker 3: my shift? The first thing I thought was like, are

877
00:41:22,982 --> 00:41:24,742
Speaker 3: you mentioned go to the hospital when your water breaks?

878
00:41:24,781 --> 00:41:26,661
Speaker 3: And then I needed to desperately know if this was

879
00:41:26,701 --> 00:41:28,462
Speaker 3: her first baby, because I thought, this is the behavior

880
00:41:28,502 --> 00:41:35,062
Speaker 3: of a woman who's had too and is like.

881
00:41:32,822 --> 00:41:34,781
Speaker 1: I've never had my waters break in the wild. I've

882
00:41:34,781 --> 00:41:36,622
Speaker 1: always wanted it to because I like the idea of

883
00:41:36,661 --> 00:41:37,142
Speaker 1: the drama.

884
00:41:37,302 --> 00:41:40,062
Speaker 3: So life Hack. One of my very close friends had

885
00:41:40,102 --> 00:41:43,341
Speaker 3: her water's break during a pregnancy massage, and she got

886
00:41:43,382 --> 00:41:46,982
Speaker 3: the massage for free and in charge of Oh really.

887
00:41:46,862 --> 00:41:47,861
Speaker 1: Very good Live Hack.

888
00:41:47,982 --> 00:41:49,462
Speaker 2: I know you have to go through a lot to

889
00:41:49,462 --> 00:41:53,462
Speaker 2: get massage, but hey, that's all we have time for today.

890
00:41:53,741 --> 00:41:56,502
Speaker 2: We are settling in nicely to our new studios. If

891
00:41:56,542 --> 00:41:57,781
Speaker 2: you want to know what they look like, come and

892
00:41:57,822 --> 00:42:01,181
Speaker 2: see us on Instagram or YouTube or on YouTube where

893
00:42:01,221 --> 00:42:03,502
Speaker 2: segments of our show are up for you all to watch.

894
00:42:03,741 --> 00:42:06,542
Speaker 2: Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.

895
00:42:06,942 --> 00:42:08,982
Speaker 2: You can visit them at Fenton and Fenton dot com

896
00:42:09,022 --> 00:42:09,742
Speaker 2: dot A you.

897
00:42:09,622 --> 00:42:11,622
Speaker 1: And a big thank you to all the out louders

898
00:42:11,661 --> 00:42:13,661
Speaker 1: for listening to the show and our fabulous team for

899
00:42:13,661 --> 00:42:16,661
Speaker 1: putting the show together. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

900
00:42:16,942 --> 00:42:21,502
Speaker 3: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening.

901
00:42:21,741 --> 00:42:23,901
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

902
00:42:24,142 --> 00:42:26,942
Speaker 3: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

903
00:42:26,982 --> 00:42:29,542
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.